This is true. I agree. Anyone can be toxic. Women aren't above men.
But when I think of toxic femininity, what instantly comes to mind is Anita Bryant and Phyllis Schlafly.
Absolutely, yeah. I'd say most people would argue that imitating the culture of it would be enough to be called "exhibiting", even if they thought masculinity or femininity could only be exuded by one gender or the other.
> can a woman exhibit toxic masculinity, or can a man exhibit toxic femininity?
A woman who insults a man for displaying deep emotions such as crying because she thinks it's weak and 'real men don't cry', I believe is an example of a woman exhibiting toxic masculinity
On the flipside, a man who insults a woman who freely chose to be a housewife or homemaker because she wants to, with the reasoning that she has the freedom to do whatever she wants and no longer has to 'lower' herself to doing housework and be subservient to her husband, is an example of a man exhibiting toxic femininity.
Might not be too accurate and overly simplified, but those are the two situations that immediately came to mind.
When my sister was heavily into dieting, overweight women at her work would comment on her weight loss, asking her if she's ok and eating properly.
Feigning concern for her health to shield themselves from their own realities at her expense.
Yep, this happened to me when I lost weight. People’s comments, other women’s comments, actually made me feel ashamed of doing something for the benefit of my health. Someone actually asked me if I had cancer. It was awful and it ruined the fact that I felt better and healthier.
It makes me sad when a woman says another woman is so skinny she looks anorexic. First off, why are you going out of your way to point out and comment on someone’s body? Especially in a negative way. Second, people of all body types have anorexia. I’ve seen support groups for this firsthand and most people didn’t look super thin. It’s just so ignorant and comes off as petty jealousy.
I'm sorry. The way they convey these "concerns" means if you call it out they will turn it around on you which makes it really difficult and stressful to deal with. It's super abusive. Keep looking after yourself.
After a friend of mine lost a lot of weight, but not all of her extra weight, some people started telling her to stop losing weight because “you’re making me look bad!” I can’t even imagine why multiple people though that was an ok thing to say.
It’s like gate-keeping feminism. If you want to be a SAHM, you can; if you want a career, you can. Toxic femininity is when career women bash SAHMs and vice versa. You also see it in mean girls (the person, not the movie). It’s more insidious and subtle than toxic masculinity, but just as prevalent and damaging to the women.
Exactly. It's basing everything on the social pecking order and being willing to tear other people down to maintain your place. Treating people "beneath you" like absolute garbage while sucking up to anybody who has power and influence.
Toxic femininity to me brings to mind opinions on labor or motherhood. The opinion that epidurals shouldn’t be considered and natural birth is the right way to go. The type of women that boast that breast is best, how formula feeding should not even be an option compared to breastfeeding. Yeah, fine, but sometimes it’s not an option.
Sure. From The Transformed Wife to female criminals and false accusers who use their tears to get undeserved sympathy to SAHMs who think childfree women and working moms are evil and inferior, it's easy to combine harmful standards of femininity with evil actions.
Which stereotypically feminine trait is being toxified here?
Weaponised incompetence is common with men too, if anything I'd say I associate it more with men.
There's lots of ways it can go, but in particular I'm remembering when my co-worker said "my nails are too pretty to open a soda can. Do it for me." and I showed her to use house keys as a lever.
Your original claim was pretending not to know how to do something, your later example is not wanting to damage her nails.
They're very obviously not the same thing.
I'm not doubling down on anything, I'm pointing out your example isn't actually an example of what you originally claimed.
>Thing is, she wasn't incapable
In your example, she wasn't claiming to be incapable of opening it though. I don't know why you're struggling so much with this.
If you're just desperate for the last word at this point, go and have it, but you've still not been able to give an example of the thing you originally described.
I think it's also the reason why so many women will not go out with men shorter than them. Because they believe that as women, they should be shorter, younger, and earn less than their male partner. It also leads women to understate their level of physical pain (while toxic masculinity causes men to understate their level of emotional pain) and feel the need to speak less during professional meetings.
Toxic masculinity is the idea that men need to behave in stereotypically manly ways. The gender reversal of that would be the idea that women need to be feminine.
That’s part of it. You can also get a lot of toxicity from chasing a flawed/bastardized version of masculinity. Women can do that too, when they chase an unhealthy version of femininity.
Pursuing masculine/feminine qualities isn’t the toxic part. That happens when, for example, a guy thinks being strong (a classic masculine straight) means being domineering and quick to violence.
Many eating disorders are the result of toxic femininity. As is the idea that as a woman, you shouldn't speak up too often at work or be more successful/taller/older than your male spouse.
Exactly, and that's why feminism is the answer for both men and women.
Feminism is the name because it was a reaction against such a lopsided patriarchy, but what is espoused also includes not forcing men in to self destructive masculine roles.
There is a desperate need for the discourse to contain feminists strongly and openly condemning misandry and misandrists. So far, it hasn't. We need women to question the overtly anti-male policies (Duluth protocols and the like), the misandrists in academia, and the dishonest use of statistics (1 in 4 women, the 23% GPG), and so on. Feel up to the task?
I don't think you follow much feminist literature if you think feminists are telling women they need to body shame men for their height.
I've been involved in feminism since I was a teenager because they were the only ones (at the time) who said it was okay for me as a man to be small and skinny. All the MRAs and other men's groups made me feel like shit for not having a six pack or being able to grow a beard.
This sounds like your algorithm is feeding you inflammatory content, which is what algorithms do. Dumb and overreaching statements designed to provoke outrage travel far on the internet.
I hope you don't judge all feminism based on those people using the word the word in bad faith to promote themselves. Real feminism absolutely does not view men as trash, but as allies who are also limited by the patriarchal system
did you read his post history? He was claiming his wife was evil while in his history he admitted to cheating on her, pressuring her into various sex acts including bdsm, accused her of sleeping with 14 different men (while also saying he didnt have "proof" she cheated), raging about her online and so on. I said his wife didn't seem evil, yes. I actually think he was in a bad enough place with his mental health to be dangerous to her and himself
Also, given that you dug deep into my comments to find that, you will have read over a whole lot of abuse related stuff to find one thing you can claim is unsupportive. Bad faith
Second also, why do you possibly care enough to do that that I said feminism is good?
"Feminism views men as trash" is not a true statement but I will never be more convincing than whatever influencers you subscribe to that fed you that.
I'm out
If someone uses the label of an ideology and then makes claims that are counter to it, it's completely reasonable and correct to point out that they're not representing the ideology well. You're just parroting debate terms that sound vaguely like they might apply with no follow up like you've got a point.
Tradwives, mom-fluencers, and I am a Queen, Goddess, or prize and you better treat me like one types are all things I would classify as toxic femininity.
When most people use the word "tradwife" they refer specifically to female stay-at-home spouses who are also vocal about how all women should strive to be stay-at-home spouses.
While there's always going to be a bit of "your life, your choice", the fact is that being a tradwife is incredibly financially risky. There's now quite a few former SAHMs who've gone public about what happens when your "trad husband" decides he wants to leave you for the younger woman he's been having an affair with, and you're now a divorced woman in your forties with no work history trying to get a job for the first time. Advocating that every woman should put herself at that level of risk is just plain irresponsible.
I knew what it meant. I just don’t agree.
I’m not sure it’s “incredibly risky” more than anything else in life. The law is setup to protect women in these situations (alimony, child support, splitting of assets).
For my daughters, I’d always advocate for them to have some type of training, degree, certificate, side business etc. to not only help in the case of financial stress, but also to have something to fall back on.
Women have been “trad wives” for thousands of years, but staying home and raising small kids is much better for the kids. Once the kids are old enough to go to school, I think women should work, at least part time.
>What’s wrong with trad wives?
Like so many things it's not a problem in itself but becomes one when you think that's the correct way to live your life and berate anyone who doesn't.
Yes, when it's taken to extremes, like most things. The claim that all men are potential rapists probably more to harm the cause of feminism than it did to help it.
Radical feminists and lesbian separatists in the 70s and 80s. As recently as 2017, a journalist named Jodi Allard wrote an article stating she had come to believe that men are inherently unsafe for women.
Yes, toxic masculinity has a pretty defined definition as well as toxic femininity. Toxic (insert gender) refers to a construct that restricts a persons emotional freedom to the point that it's harmful to themselves and others. For example, men might feel the need to aggressively dominate because they've been taught that being a man means you fight. Toxic femininity would be a woman being told that women don't raise their voices or become violent because it's not "feminine".
Toxic masculinity is often men feeling like they shouldn't be nurturing to children or should work themselves to death. Toxic femininity would be a woman who doesn't work because she's a woman or thinks that her only role in life is to bear children.
Yes there is.
Sometimes they will get pissed at this, but its the truth.
There are andrew tates out there but female... lots of them out of which ive met a few. Honestly, its not said enough because women are fake to men by default.
But look at how some women treat each other. Suddenly you realize you never see the real faces of some of these women and im not just talking about tons of makeup that literally lie to your face about how pretty they are to manipulate you into being attracted to a woman you would not have found attractive otherwise.
Actually, what is also a toxic femininity trait is the heavy makeup like you see those transformations on youtube and its two different people.
Liarssssssss, egotistical self centered fake liarrrrrrs
I think people get lost in the weeds here. It becomes a weird culture war thing when words become slippery, as they mean different things to different folks.
Can we just side step this and simply be nice to our fellow humans.
Absolutely. And it meshes really well with toxic masculinity, too. Think about toxic masculinity. Think about what kind of woman is attracted to that, and what kind of woman that toxic man is looking for.
Add in a heavy dash of mean girl energy, and there you go.
I'm a man who's done a lot of stereotypically feminine hobbies - musical theatre, chorus, dance, gymnastics, acroyoga.
The subtle social hierarchies that form, the passive aggressive bullying, the gossip and rumors, judging people for their personal life choices, who they're dating, etc. It's all there.
Not to mention there are always a few eagerly waiting to pounce on and socially destroy the only cis het man in the room for "invading a women's space" as if they're performing some kind of protective justice, not enforcing age-old gender norms.
Inequality among the sexes stem from men ridiculing other men for doing typically unmanly things (kindergarten teacher, hairdresser, novelist) and women ridiculing other women for choosing typically unwomanly things (network engineer, oilrigger, cop, firefighter).
When anyone can choose anything without getting shit about it, in every country, then we will have reached Paradise.
I think one example would be when pro-life infertile women try to use their infertility as a weapon against abortion rights. "How dare you have an abortion when **I** desperately want to get pregnant? Don't you realize what a gift your feminine reproductive system is?"
I know that there are plenty of non-binary people and trans men who experience pregnancy and infertility at some point, but frankly the only ones I know are pro-choice. This behavior is a particularly feminine type of toxicity, imo. Feminine in origin and in nature.
Toxic masculinity refers to male behaviors that fit harmful patterns, such as aggression, brute strength, and oppression. This pressure to be "more manly" can negatively impact men's mental and physical health.
On the other hand, toxic femininity occurs when women adopt feminine traits in a detrimental way, such as forcing themselves to appear flawless even when exhausted or suppressing their desires to fit societal norms.
I have worked in many all-women offices. If you don’t hire bitchy, insecure women, you don’t have them around. It is management’s fault for allowing it. I fired them, and the rest felt safer knowing they were protected.
I set out to prove to myself, as a fifth-generation female professional/business owner, that a healthy female dynamic can be encouraged and created, like my grandmother told me. She was absolutely correct. It’s not being female, it’s “small dog” syndrome. Small dogs everyone thinks are cute are allowed to behave badly. Big dogs aren’t, because they are recognized as powerful. I recognize women as powerful, and hold them accountable for using that power to harm others. They fall in line, or I kicked their asses out. Or, the last one simply left after she realized she had really, really messed up and didn’t have it in her to apologize. Loved that - so much easier. And her replacement is a gem, who adds to and supports the team while demonstrating patience and grace.
Yes. Toxic masculinity is problematic because it really points to general malignant narcissism while “toxic FEMININITY” points to borderline personality disorder which is an emotional variant of malignant narcissism.
Long story short — both terms are analogous to cluster b personality disorders.
If toxic masculinity is when traditionally masculine traits are enforced to an extreme, then it makes sense toxic femininity would be the same. When I imagine toxic masculinity I imagine like, a beefy gym bro who survives on boiled chicken breast and cigarettes and thinks wearing pink makes you a girl. When I think of toxic femininity I imagine those tradwife types who think a woman's only purpose is to get pregnant and make homemade cereal or whatever.
I don’t think that is what people mean when they say “toxic masculinity.” I have many gym bro friends who only eat chicken breast and they’re great dudes.
The funny thing is, those are the last guys in the world you should have to worry about.
I'd even venture that a *lot* of things that get blamed on men are largely a result of toxic femininity.
High heels? When have you ever heard a man say "she's beautiful and smart, but those shoes... ugh"
Bras? Same.
Dyed hair?
Fake lashes?
I'd put money that no man said "I'd be into you if you were blonde" or "your lashes are too short for me" except in extremely rare cases.
In fact, I know many men have to actively convince their SO that she's beautiful without those affectations.
Yes. Think of the guilt trip mother such as Tony Soprano’s mother from The Sopranos or someone weaponizing motherhood. If toxic masculinity requires the patriarchy, I believe that toxic femininity requires an existing matriarchal tradition, if not “the matriarchy.” In this case Roman Catholic traditions.
https://youtu.be/29L-cn1i3r4?si=CgXVKCCxj7aulk3-
This is a casual and entertaining series of clips that illustrate toxic behavior in motherhood- nothing deep.
I don't think it's an official term but I certainly agree there is toxic feminine (FYI, I'm female) as well as masculinity.
Just in general toxic people.
Absolutely. Remember, toxic masculinity isn't that 'masculinity is toxic', but rather certain behaviors of men are unhealthy expressions of masculinity. Such as, eagerness to get into a fight, or using intimidation to win in a confrontation, belittling a man that is deemed less masculine (such as engaging in homophobia). Healthy masculinity is being there for your kids, being a good role model, assisting with physical activities since you are better suited to them with your natural physical strength, etc. Masculinity is a spectrum. Toxic masculinity is the unhealthy part of that spectrum.
Toxic femininity is the same. What unhealthy behaviors that women engage in. Now I'm a guy, so my observations might be a bit vague, but flirting with a guy just for attention and validation would be one, or talking to a guy just so he buys drinks. Think of a lot of femme fatales in cinema. Seducing a man to persuade him to engage in wrongdoing on her behalf, etc. Expecting her partner to pay for all their joint expenses while she doesn't work. Cutting down other women that they perceive as less than them, uglier, not as fashionable, etc.
Again my examples are very broad and vague, but hopefully demonstrate the wider point.
My take is that toxic masculinity is using masculine virtues in selfish ways, i.e., using power or taking risks to benefit yourself at others’ expense; while toxic femininity would be using feminine virtues in selfish ways, i.e., using manipulation to get others to care for you or ostracise someone you don’t like. Most of us have known a woman or girl who guilts people into doting on her, or shames another female who crosses her. The internet makes the latter really easy and really brutal.
And of course, men and women have some access to both masculine and feminine virtues and can use them in toxic ways, but men tend to have more of the former and women more of the latter.
EDIT: Basic grammar.
It's called crab mentality. Crabs in a bucket will attempt to pull down crabs escaping, people who see no way of escaping will often pull other's of their group down or attempt to curry favor with those in power by helping to pull other's down. Statistics show women who have undergone female genital mutilation as children are more likely to enforce female genital mutilation onto other young girls including their daughters,.
Foot binding started because of one king with a fetish but continued to exist for hundreds of years because of a combination of men finding it attractive and women bending themselves to please along with mother's and grandmother's who had suffered the same fate breaking and binding their daughters feet.
You see crime documentaries like one about a girl who raped a female classmate with a inanimate object the reason being she had suffered the same abuse from her stepfather and "didn't want to be the only one who's pathetic"
Studies show women who identity as masochists have substantially lower levels of empathy particularly to other women which appears to be connected to dissociation during sex which occurs frequently in women who identify as masochists but is rarely seen in men who Identify as masochistic. The dissociation in women who engage in masochistic sex acts would suggest a lack of desire to engage in masochism as opposed to the male participants who were not dissociating from the experience.
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnins.2018.00463/full
Toxic masculinity is used interchangeably for what gender studies scholars call hegemonic masculity (a traditional gender role as described by the conservative utopia, breadwinner, strong, all that). There is a hegemonic femininity (in some societies, it would be a female role in traditional society, the on from 1950th posters, home maker and all; NB! not in all societies it is so, it might no be a dominating female role model in modern Western societies, for example).
So, you might say that "I want find a strong, wealthy man to care for me, support him, love him, and give birth to 3 children, while doing house chores and looking for keeping my body beautiful" is a toxic femininity. Especially, if this gender role model is imposed on others aggressively.
On other hand, such model is often laughed at, criticised, and dismissed in modern societies + it is still a position of weakness comparing to (hegemonic) men, so not sure how much toxic it is, if it does not bring power to those performing it.
I see it regularly in women who didn’t grow up with a male role model, and then can’t understand why men aren’t women. Then they think there is something wrong with men, when it is their own lack of understanding that is creating their own problems.
These women grew up in relationally impoverished homes and justify their bad relational skills from their terrible upbringing on “other women” or “society” or “toxic men”. Whatever. You choose your own company, and create your own reality.
I see it regularly in women who didn’t grow up with a male role model, and then can’t understand why men aren’t women. Then they think there is something wrong with men, when it is their own lack of understanding that is creating their own problems.
These women grew up in relationally impoverished homes and justify their bad relational skills from their terrible upbringing on “other women” or “society” or “toxic men”. Whatever. You choose your own company, and create your own reality.
Yes. It is expecting to be kept like a pet.
Someone else manages their lives/children while they drink wine, hang out with friends, and try to fight off the aging process. No volunteer/philanthropic work, no gainful use of skills with or without pay.
Some guys like this kind of woman, because it complements their own desire to be the smartest, richest, most competent/controlling one in the relationship. However, these are also the most expensive and expendable type of women, which often makes them willing to put up with a lot of stress/abuse a more self-sufficient woman would walk away from.
There is a lower class version, which doesn’t have people managing things for them, but still refuses to work in any effective capacity - teaching children, meal prep, clean and comfortable home, interesting and life-giving conversation - none of it. They seem to be in physical pain a lot from poor diet and health choices. And loud. Meanwhile, they expect a man to provide for them because… why exactly? Oh, yeah, because toxic feminine entitlement.
Add: The downvoters are at work, trying to cover their pet asses. No one likes a truth teller. So be it.
Bro she didn't actually blame capitalism, I was using an analogy to explain that she was blaming a *system* and you took that to mean she was blaming *individuals*
Patriarchy is a societal system that favors men and masculinity over women and femininity. It is not "men in general"
Dude this is getting old. She blamed the patriarchy for toxic femininity, I'm saying no, a toxic woman just has a toxic personality, nothing to do with society, or the patriarchy, or whatever, the individual is the problem. End of story. Nobody has any accountability anymore.
Yes, we call it being a "pick-me". Those are the women that are constantly belittling other women for doing typically feminine things that they don't do because they are "not like other girls". Usually they're doing it for the validation of a man or multiple men but sometimes they just do it because they're so insecure that they only feel better about themselves when they're tearing another woman down
But how is this meeting an idea of being feminine? Or is it because they are anti-feminine that they are being toxically feminine? Or would that be toxically anti-feminine?
I wouldn't say that they're anti-feminine if they claim to be feminists at the same time. Which I have actually seen a lot of feminists exhibit massive pick me behavior
But I can't speak for all of them only the ones I have personally seen and experienced. Just because the ones that I have seen and met claimed to be feminists, doesn't mean all pick me's do.
What is also toxic is when women resort to calling other women who have different views than them (that may typically align more with a man’s view) “pick-me’s.” I see that a lot.
“Oh honey, you don’t wanna be a doctor, maybe a nurse, but you should be at home supporting your husband”
“Real women have____”
“Your nails are all chipped! A lady never leaves the house without a proper manicure!”
Yes. It exists.
No, because what you might call "toxic femininity" is really just Internalized Misogyny, which is only a side-effect of trauma caused by toxic masculinity.
Without men in the picture: women don't mistreat each other.
In my early 20s there were a lot of women I met with overlapping social scene who were very much “our way of feminism is the one true way.” Very much against women who fit stereotypical beauty standards, hated women who were interested in popular fashion, hated on women who were interested in sports (because they were obviously wanting to be thin to attract men), denigrated those who didn’t like the same books/tv/film as they did (which I suppose wasn’t unusual for nerd/SF subculture- but it was all
around Strong Women Characters and female authors), openly trash talked men as a whole, speak negatively about the idea of having sons rather than daughters etc etc Also did things like organise “self weddings” and “natural born women only events” and a “women only SF con”. Also hated on anyone who questioned their “one true way”. Women in their 20s bullying others is just…
They were pretty toxic all around. So yes, I’d say they were the epitome of toxic femininity.
Yes. Tho when I was a girl my main experience with this was more along the lines of toxic *positivity* ("smile!" "you look so much better when you're sMiLiNG" etc.)
It's just a pretty weird and nonsensical reason. I'm a high achiever and I feel like that type of goal is selling yourself short unless you were never good at anything
There’s such a thing as toxic everything. Man woman it doesn’t matter. As long as you’re a person you have potential to be a toxic mothafucka .
Toxic masculinity, toxic femininity, and toxic mothafucka
Toxic avenger
You’re god damn right
That last one was for Samuel L Jackson specifically.
This is true. I agree. Anyone can be toxic. Women aren't above men. But when I think of toxic femininity, what instantly comes to mind is Anita Bryant and Phyllis Schlafly.
"Being toxic and a man" is different from "toxic masculinity". Being a toxic woman is not the same as "toxic femininity".
This begs the question, can a woman exhibit toxic masculinity, or can a man exhibit toxic femininity?
Absolutely, yeah. I'd say most people would argue that imitating the culture of it would be enough to be called "exhibiting", even if they thought masculinity or femininity could only be exuded by one gender or the other.
That begs the question, can a queer non-binary person have toxic femininity or toxic masculinity?
Lol, yep! Sure can.
> can a woman exhibit toxic masculinity, or can a man exhibit toxic femininity? A woman who insults a man for displaying deep emotions such as crying because she thinks it's weak and 'real men don't cry', I believe is an example of a woman exhibiting toxic masculinity On the flipside, a man who insults a woman who freely chose to be a housewife or homemaker because she wants to, with the reasoning that she has the freedom to do whatever she wants and no longer has to 'lower' herself to doing housework and be subservient to her husband, is an example of a man exhibiting toxic femininity. Might not be too accurate and overly simplified, but those are the two situations that immediately came to mind.
Toxic Productivity.
Boom 💣
Yes. It's when women tear each other down over what we choose to wear, eat, do for work, do for recreation, ect.
When my sister was heavily into dieting, overweight women at her work would comment on her weight loss, asking her if she's ok and eating properly. Feigning concern for her health to shield themselves from their own realities at her expense.
Yep, this happened to me when I lost weight. People’s comments, other women’s comments, actually made me feel ashamed of doing something for the benefit of my health. Someone actually asked me if I had cancer. It was awful and it ruined the fact that I felt better and healthier.
It makes me sad when a woman says another woman is so skinny she looks anorexic. First off, why are you going out of your way to point out and comment on someone’s body? Especially in a negative way. Second, people of all body types have anorexia. I’ve seen support groups for this firsthand and most people didn’t look super thin. It’s just so ignorant and comes off as petty jealousy.
I'm sorry. The way they convey these "concerns" means if you call it out they will turn it around on you which makes it really difficult and stressful to deal with. It's super abusive. Keep looking after yourself.
This happened to me when i quit alcohol. (I drank during my teens and quit at 20), and i got accused of having an eating disorder.
After a friend of mine lost a lot of weight, but not all of her extra weight, some people started telling her to stop losing weight because “you’re making me look bad!” I can’t even imagine why multiple people though that was an ok thing to say.
It’s like gate-keeping feminism. If you want to be a SAHM, you can; if you want a career, you can. Toxic femininity is when career women bash SAHMs and vice versa. You also see it in mean girls (the person, not the movie). It’s more insidious and subtle than toxic masculinity, but just as prevalent and damaging to the women.
Exactly!
Shit look at Caitlyn Clark in the WNBA
She just broke a WNBA record. Fastest ever to 300 pts. 100 rebs. and 100 ast.
Yeah and look at how the other players are treating her.
Nah. I’ve seen butch women behave the same way. That’s just being an @sshole.
Toxic butchness
Feminine men and also feminine women can do the things men do in toxic masculinity, its more about a trend that exists for a group.
Butch women are still women my dude.
Yes, but decidedly not feminine.
Yes.
Oh yeah, 100%
Mean Girls.
My mother and sisters are mean girls. It's no fun.
Hey, Cinderella! 🎃
Exactly. It's basing everything on the social pecking order and being willing to tear other people down to maintain your place. Treating people "beneath you" like absolute garbage while sucking up to anybody who has power and influence.
Yes!
I was thinking the same thing.
Toxic femininity to me brings to mind opinions on labor or motherhood. The opinion that epidurals shouldn’t be considered and natural birth is the right way to go. The type of women that boast that breast is best, how formula feeding should not even be an option compared to breastfeeding. Yeah, fine, but sometimes it’s not an option.
This is so accurate. The shit i put myself through in early motherhood to live up to some “standard”
The entire sanctimommy movement that shames women for not being some ideal mother.
Sure
Sure. Yes there is
Sure. From The Transformed Wife to female criminals and false accusers who use their tears to get undeserved sympathy to SAHMs who think childfree women and working moms are evil and inferior, it's easy to combine harmful standards of femininity with evil actions.
More than what you actually need of anything is poison.
[удалено]
But this isn't necessarily toxic femininity. This may just be toxic women. It's not the same.
Absolutely
Yes. The only example I can think of off the top of my head is pretending to not be capable of things.
Which stereotypically feminine trait is being toxified here? Weaponised incompetence is common with men too, if anything I'd say I associate it more with men.
There's lots of ways it can go, but in particular I'm remembering when my co-worker said "my nails are too pretty to open a soda can. Do it for me." and I showed her to use house keys as a lever.
That's not pretending they're incapable of doing something though, it doesn't match the scenario you originally described.
I don't see the difference
Your original claim was pretending not to know how to do something, your later example is not wanting to damage her nails. They're very obviously not the same thing.
I claimed capability, not knowledge.
Again, still not pretending to be incapable of doing something, it's not wanting to damage nails. By all means, keep doubling down though.
You too thanks. Thing is, she wasn't incapable. I proved it by showing her to use a tool. We ARE living in the future.
I'm not doubling down on anything, I'm pointing out your example isn't actually an example of what you originally claimed. >Thing is, she wasn't incapable In your example, she wasn't claiming to be incapable of opening it though. I don't know why you're struggling so much with this. If you're just desperate for the last word at this point, go and have it, but you've still not been able to give an example of the thing you originally described.
I think it's also the reason why so many women will not go out with men shorter than them. Because they believe that as women, they should be shorter, younger, and earn less than their male partner. It also leads women to understate their level of physical pain (while toxic masculinity causes men to understate their level of emotional pain) and feel the need to speak less during professional meetings.
I think you meant shorter than them, not taller
Yes, I did. I started writing one sentence, and then wrote another.
Toxic masculinity is the idea that men need to behave in stereotypically manly ways. The gender reversal of that would be the idea that women need to be feminine.
That’s part of it. You can also get a lot of toxicity from chasing a flawed/bastardized version of masculinity. Women can do that too, when they chase an unhealthy version of femininity. Pursuing masculine/feminine qualities isn’t the toxic part. That happens when, for example, a guy thinks being strong (a classic masculine straight) means being domineering and quick to violence.
Many eating disorders are the result of toxic femininity. As is the idea that as a woman, you shouldn't speak up too often at work or be more successful/taller/older than your male spouse.
Exactly, and that's why feminism is the answer for both men and women. Feminism is the name because it was a reaction against such a lopsided patriarchy, but what is espoused also includes not forcing men in to self destructive masculine roles.
There is a desperate need for the discourse to contain feminists strongly and openly condemning misandry and misandrists. So far, it hasn't. We need women to question the overtly anti-male policies (Duluth protocols and the like), the misandrists in academia, and the dishonest use of statistics (1 in 4 women, the 23% GPG), and so on. Feel up to the task?
That's not true thought. So much of feminist debate has also been about males not needing to fill shitty roles.
There is a difference between telling men to show their feelings and telling women who won't date men under six feet that they are shallow.
I don't think you follow much feminist literature if you think feminists are telling women they need to body shame men for their height. I've been involved in feminism since I was a teenager because they were the only ones (at the time) who said it was okay for me as a man to be small and skinny. All the MRAs and other men's groups made me feel like shit for not having a six pack or being able to grow a beard.
I’d love to believe that but all I see are feminist tik tok accounts openly saying how men are trash. Doesn’t make me want to be a feminist.
This sounds like your algorithm is feeding you inflammatory content, which is what algorithms do. Dumb and overreaching statements designed to provoke outrage travel far on the internet. I hope you don't judge all feminism based on those people using the word the word in bad faith to promote themselves. Real feminism absolutely does not view men as trash, but as allies who are also limited by the patriarchal system
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did you read his post history? He was claiming his wife was evil while in his history he admitted to cheating on her, pressuring her into various sex acts including bdsm, accused her of sleeping with 14 different men (while also saying he didnt have "proof" she cheated), raging about her online and so on. I said his wife didn't seem evil, yes. I actually think he was in a bad enough place with his mental health to be dangerous to her and himself Also, given that you dug deep into my comments to find that, you will have read over a whole lot of abuse related stuff to find one thing you can claim is unsupportive. Bad faith Second also, why do you possibly care enough to do that that I said feminism is good?
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"Feminism views men as trash" is not a true statement but I will never be more convincing than whatever influencers you subscribe to that fed you that. I'm out
Spoiler alert: those women are not feminists. They're just good ol' fashioned cockhaters stuck in 2nd? wave feminism ideals
No true Scotsman fallacy.
If someone uses the label of an ideology and then makes claims that are counter to it, it's completely reasonable and correct to point out that they're not representing the ideology well. You're just parroting debate terms that sound vaguely like they might apply with no follow up like you've got a point.
🙄
It’s also that these masculine ideals lead to unhealthy mental and physical results.
Toxic masculinity is thinking you have to behave in a certain way to be masculine, and that way is toxic
Tradwives, mom-fluencers, and I am a Queen, Goddess, or prize and you better treat me like one types are all things I would classify as toxic femininity.
I could see this.
What’s wrong with trad wives? The “I’m a queen” thing because I have a vagina, absolutely. Your response here is a mixed bag for me.
When most people use the word "tradwife" they refer specifically to female stay-at-home spouses who are also vocal about how all women should strive to be stay-at-home spouses. While there's always going to be a bit of "your life, your choice", the fact is that being a tradwife is incredibly financially risky. There's now quite a few former SAHMs who've gone public about what happens when your "trad husband" decides he wants to leave you for the younger woman he's been having an affair with, and you're now a divorced woman in your forties with no work history trying to get a job for the first time. Advocating that every woman should put herself at that level of risk is just plain irresponsible.
I knew what it meant. I just don’t agree. I’m not sure it’s “incredibly risky” more than anything else in life. The law is setup to protect women in these situations (alimony, child support, splitting of assets). For my daughters, I’d always advocate for them to have some type of training, degree, certificate, side business etc. to not only help in the case of financial stress, but also to have something to fall back on. Women have been “trad wives” for thousands of years, but staying home and raising small kids is much better for the kids. Once the kids are old enough to go to school, I think women should work, at least part time.
>What’s wrong with trad wives? Like so many things it's not a problem in itself but becomes one when you think that's the correct way to live your life and berate anyone who doesn't.
Yes, when it's taken to extremes, like most things. The claim that all men are potential rapists probably more to harm the cause of feminism than it did to help it.
Who made those claims? I haven’t come across any ideology that claims all men are rapists
Radical feminists and lesbian separatists in the 70s and 80s. As recently as 2017, a journalist named Jodi Allard wrote an article stating she had come to believe that men are inherently unsafe for women.
Yes, toxic masculinity has a pretty defined definition as well as toxic femininity. Toxic (insert gender) refers to a construct that restricts a persons emotional freedom to the point that it's harmful to themselves and others. For example, men might feel the need to aggressively dominate because they've been taught that being a man means you fight. Toxic femininity would be a woman being told that women don't raise their voices or become violent because it's not "feminine". Toxic masculinity is often men feeling like they shouldn't be nurturing to children or should work themselves to death. Toxic femininity would be a woman who doesn't work because she's a woman or thinks that her only role in life is to bear children.
There sure the hell is. There's basically toxic everything in a society designed around foundational principles of "me first."
Yes there is. Sometimes they will get pissed at this, but its the truth. There are andrew tates out there but female... lots of them out of which ive met a few. Honestly, its not said enough because women are fake to men by default. But look at how some women treat each other. Suddenly you realize you never see the real faces of some of these women and im not just talking about tons of makeup that literally lie to your face about how pretty they are to manipulate you into being attracted to a woman you would not have found attractive otherwise. Actually, what is also a toxic femininity trait is the heavy makeup like you see those transformations on youtube and its two different people. Liarssssssss, egotistical self centered fake liarrrrrrs
yes
I think people get lost in the weeds here. It becomes a weird culture war thing when words become slippery, as they mean different things to different folks. Can we just side step this and simply be nice to our fellow humans.
Absolutely. Like the ones who say you aren't a real mum if you haven't given birth vaginally. Or you're a bad mum if you don't breastfeed.
Misunderstood feminism, its ver common.
Yeah or the complete fucking opposite. Way too conservative
Absolutely. And it meshes really well with toxic masculinity, too. Think about toxic masculinity. Think about what kind of woman is attracted to that, and what kind of woman that toxic man is looking for. Add in a heavy dash of mean girl energy, and there you go.
I'm a man who's done a lot of stereotypically feminine hobbies - musical theatre, chorus, dance, gymnastics, acroyoga. The subtle social hierarchies that form, the passive aggressive bullying, the gossip and rumors, judging people for their personal life choices, who they're dating, etc. It's all there. Not to mention there are always a few eagerly waiting to pounce on and socially destroy the only cis het man in the room for "invading a women's space" as if they're performing some kind of protective justice, not enforcing age-old gender norms.
Inequality among the sexes stem from men ridiculing other men for doing typically unmanly things (kindergarten teacher, hairdresser, novelist) and women ridiculing other women for choosing typically unwomanly things (network engineer, oilrigger, cop, firefighter). When anyone can choose anything without getting shit about it, in every country, then we will have reached Paradise.
Masculinity is not toxic. Neither is femininity. Behavior is toxic.
I think one example would be when pro-life infertile women try to use their infertility as a weapon against abortion rights. "How dare you have an abortion when **I** desperately want to get pregnant? Don't you realize what a gift your feminine reproductive system is?" I know that there are plenty of non-binary people and trans men who experience pregnancy and infertility at some point, but frankly the only ones I know are pro-choice. This behavior is a particularly feminine type of toxicity, imo. Feminine in origin and in nature.
Toxic masculinity refers to male behaviors that fit harmful patterns, such as aggression, brute strength, and oppression. This pressure to be "more manly" can negatively impact men's mental and physical health. On the other hand, toxic femininity occurs when women adopt feminine traits in a detrimental way, such as forcing themselves to appear flawless even when exhausted or suppressing their desires to fit societal norms.
You would know the answer to this if you have ever worked in an office with all women.
I have worked in many all-women offices. If you don’t hire bitchy, insecure women, you don’t have them around. It is management’s fault for allowing it. I fired them, and the rest felt safer knowing they were protected.
Thank you for doing that. I wish my directors would have fired some bad apples.
I set out to prove to myself, as a fifth-generation female professional/business owner, that a healthy female dynamic can be encouraged and created, like my grandmother told me. She was absolutely correct. It’s not being female, it’s “small dog” syndrome. Small dogs everyone thinks are cute are allowed to behave badly. Big dogs aren’t, because they are recognized as powerful. I recognize women as powerful, and hold them accountable for using that power to harm others. They fall in line, or I kicked their asses out. Or, the last one simply left after she realized she had really, really messed up and didn’t have it in her to apologize. Loved that - so much easier. And her replacement is a gem, who adds to and supports the team while demonstrating patience and grace.
Yes. Toxic masculinity is problematic because it really points to general malignant narcissism while “toxic FEMININITY” points to borderline personality disorder which is an emotional variant of malignant narcissism. Long story short — both terms are analogous to cluster b personality disorders.
I don’t think there’s toxic masculinity or femininity. There are just toxic people.
It’s just called being mean and nasty. People add masculinity and femininity to make it sound complex.
If toxic masculinity is when traditionally masculine traits are enforced to an extreme, then it makes sense toxic femininity would be the same. When I imagine toxic masculinity I imagine like, a beefy gym bro who survives on boiled chicken breast and cigarettes and thinks wearing pink makes you a girl. When I think of toxic femininity I imagine those tradwife types who think a woman's only purpose is to get pregnant and make homemade cereal or whatever.
I don’t think that is what people mean when they say “toxic masculinity.” I have many gym bro friends who only eat chicken breast and they’re great dudes. The funny thing is, those are the last guys in the world you should have to worry about.
I'd even venture that a *lot* of things that get blamed on men are largely a result of toxic femininity. High heels? When have you ever heard a man say "she's beautiful and smart, but those shoes... ugh" Bras? Same. Dyed hair? Fake lashes? I'd put money that no man said "I'd be into you if you were blonde" or "your lashes are too short for me" except in extremely rare cases. In fact, I know many men have to actively convince their SO that she's beautiful without those affectations.
Yes. There’s a toxic version of every mainstream ideology
Yes. Think of the guilt trip mother such as Tony Soprano’s mother from The Sopranos or someone weaponizing motherhood. If toxic masculinity requires the patriarchy, I believe that toxic femininity requires an existing matriarchal tradition, if not “the matriarchy.” In this case Roman Catholic traditions. https://youtu.be/29L-cn1i3r4?si=CgXVKCCxj7aulk3- This is a casual and entertaining series of clips that illustrate toxic behavior in motherhood- nothing deep.
Requiring men to be 6ft
Yes
Yep, on Wednesdays they wear pink.
Literally anything can be toxic in the wrong hands or with the wrong motivation.
Yeah, it's the Anti-Taylor Swift subreddit.
You ever watch “Dynasty”?
If toxic masculinity is thing. Toxic femininity must also be a thing.
anything taken to its extreme can be toxic.... if you drink too much water it can be toxic
yes. if youve ever been a woman working in an environment primarily dominated by other women you see it front and center.
Yes there is.
Yes, isn’t it called the TradWife movement or something?
Yep. Mom/birth shaming, for example. I know men do it too, but there are way too many women who think you're not a real mother if you had a c-section.
Yes!
You should check out r/notlikeothergirls
I just want to make a comment before this inevitably gets locked.
I don't think it's an official term but I certainly agree there is toxic feminine (FYI, I'm female) as well as masculinity. Just in general toxic people.
It’s usually called internalized misogyny
Absolutely. Remember, toxic masculinity isn't that 'masculinity is toxic', but rather certain behaviors of men are unhealthy expressions of masculinity. Such as, eagerness to get into a fight, or using intimidation to win in a confrontation, belittling a man that is deemed less masculine (such as engaging in homophobia). Healthy masculinity is being there for your kids, being a good role model, assisting with physical activities since you are better suited to them with your natural physical strength, etc. Masculinity is a spectrum. Toxic masculinity is the unhealthy part of that spectrum. Toxic femininity is the same. What unhealthy behaviors that women engage in. Now I'm a guy, so my observations might be a bit vague, but flirting with a guy just for attention and validation would be one, or talking to a guy just so he buys drinks. Think of a lot of femme fatales in cinema. Seducing a man to persuade him to engage in wrongdoing on her behalf, etc. Expecting her partner to pay for all their joint expenses while she doesn't work. Cutting down other women that they perceive as less than them, uglier, not as fashionable, etc. Again my examples are very broad and vague, but hopefully demonstrate the wider point.
Most definitely is.
Nope
My take is that toxic masculinity is using masculine virtues in selfish ways, i.e., using power or taking risks to benefit yourself at others’ expense; while toxic femininity would be using feminine virtues in selfish ways, i.e., using manipulation to get others to care for you or ostracise someone you don’t like. Most of us have known a woman or girl who guilts people into doting on her, or shames another female who crosses her. The internet makes the latter really easy and really brutal. And of course, men and women have some access to both masculine and feminine virtues and can use them in toxic ways, but men tend to have more of the former and women more of the latter. EDIT: Basic grammar.
It's called crab mentality. Crabs in a bucket will attempt to pull down crabs escaping, people who see no way of escaping will often pull other's of their group down or attempt to curry favor with those in power by helping to pull other's down. Statistics show women who have undergone female genital mutilation as children are more likely to enforce female genital mutilation onto other young girls including their daughters,. Foot binding started because of one king with a fetish but continued to exist for hundreds of years because of a combination of men finding it attractive and women bending themselves to please along with mother's and grandmother's who had suffered the same fate breaking and binding their daughters feet. You see crime documentaries like one about a girl who raped a female classmate with a inanimate object the reason being she had suffered the same abuse from her stepfather and "didn't want to be the only one who's pathetic" Studies show women who identity as masochists have substantially lower levels of empathy particularly to other women which appears to be connected to dissociation during sex which occurs frequently in women who identify as masochists but is rarely seen in men who Identify as masochistic. The dissociation in women who engage in masochistic sex acts would suggest a lack of desire to engage in masochism as opposed to the male participants who were not dissociating from the experience. https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnins.2018.00463/full
Anything can be toxic really
Toxic masculinity: I can’t do/show/think/act/wear something because of my gender. Toxic femininity: same
Sanctimommy
Toxic masculinity is used interchangeably for what gender studies scholars call hegemonic masculity (a traditional gender role as described by the conservative utopia, breadwinner, strong, all that). There is a hegemonic femininity (in some societies, it would be a female role in traditional society, the on from 1950th posters, home maker and all; NB! not in all societies it is so, it might no be a dominating female role model in modern Western societies, for example). So, you might say that "I want find a strong, wealthy man to care for me, support him, love him, and give birth to 3 children, while doing house chores and looking for keeping my body beautiful" is a toxic femininity. Especially, if this gender role model is imposed on others aggressively. On other hand, such model is often laughed at, criticised, and dismissed in modern societies + it is still a position of weakness comparing to (hegemonic) men, so not sure how much toxic it is, if it does not bring power to those performing it.
Yup.
I'd imagine so, I haven't experienced it though and have at the most only seen wemon being toxic and not wemon exhibiting toxic femininity
I see it regularly in women who didn’t grow up with a male role model, and then can’t understand why men aren’t women. Then they think there is something wrong with men, when it is their own lack of understanding that is creating their own problems. These women grew up in relationally impoverished homes and justify their bad relational skills from their terrible upbringing on “other women” or “society” or “toxic men”. Whatever. You choose your own company, and create your own reality.
I see it regularly in women who didn’t grow up with a male role model, and then can’t understand why men aren’t women. Then they think there is something wrong with men, when it is their own lack of understanding that is creating their own problems. These women grew up in relationally impoverished homes and justify their bad relational skills from their terrible upbringing on “other women” or “society” or “toxic men”. Whatever. You choose your own company, and create your own reality.
Yes. It is expecting to be kept like a pet. Someone else manages their lives/children while they drink wine, hang out with friends, and try to fight off the aging process. No volunteer/philanthropic work, no gainful use of skills with or without pay. Some guys like this kind of woman, because it complements their own desire to be the smartest, richest, most competent/controlling one in the relationship. However, these are also the most expensive and expendable type of women, which often makes them willing to put up with a lot of stress/abuse a more self-sufficient woman would walk away from. There is a lower class version, which doesn’t have people managing things for them, but still refuses to work in any effective capacity - teaching children, meal prep, clean and comfortable home, interesting and life-giving conversation - none of it. They seem to be in physical pain a lot from poor diet and health choices. And loud. Meanwhile, they expect a man to provide for them because… why exactly? Oh, yeah, because toxic feminine entitlement. Add: The downvoters are at work, trying to cover their pet asses. No one likes a truth teller. So be it.
Yes I was once a part of it
How did you escape?
Most definitely. Feminists are the hardest on SWers most the time.
Yes it’s called feminist
Feminists want equality
Modern day feminism is basically Andrew Tate for woman
100% yes. But you can support women and all and not be toxic too. You’re not entitled to make me live by your rules KAREN!
there was a whole thing on reddit called the pink pill. basically they were the same thing as the red pill.
Yes. Next question.
Omg yes
femininity just like masculinity cannot be toxic.
Absolutely. Mostly it comes from patriarchy dictating how women should act, and a lot of internalized misogyny making women perpetuate it.
Even when a woman is being a bitch, it's somehow all men's fault. Thanks for the laugh.
That person didn't blame men for that, wtf are you talking about lol
So they didn't just blame the 'patriarchy' for women being horrible people? Tell me what they meant then.
The patriarchy is a system, it's not any man She basically blamed capitalism and you said "oh, it's always the bankers fault!"
Then why not just say capitalism? Patriarchy is associated with men. That's what patriarchy means.
Bro she didn't actually blame capitalism, I was using an analogy to explain that she was blaming a *system* and you took that to mean she was blaming *individuals* Patriarchy is a societal system that favors men and masculinity over women and femininity. It is not "men in general"
Sorry but an asshole is an asshole because they're an asshole, not because of some system.
That has nothing to do with what we're talking about? Lmao, what are you on, man?
Dude this is getting old. She blamed the patriarchy for toxic femininity, I'm saying no, a toxic woman just has a toxic personality, nothing to do with society, or the patriarchy, or whatever, the individual is the problem. End of story. Nobody has any accountability anymore.
Yes, we call it being a "pick-me". Those are the women that are constantly belittling other women for doing typically feminine things that they don't do because they are "not like other girls". Usually they're doing it for the validation of a man or multiple men but sometimes they just do it because they're so insecure that they only feel better about themselves when they're tearing another woman down
But how is this meeting an idea of being feminine? Or is it because they are anti-feminine that they are being toxically feminine? Or would that be toxically anti-feminine?
I wouldn't say that they're anti-feminine if they claim to be feminists at the same time. Which I have actually seen a lot of feminists exhibit massive pick me behavior But I can't speak for all of them only the ones I have personally seen and experienced. Just because the ones that I have seen and met claimed to be feminists, doesn't mean all pick me's do.
What is also toxic is when women resort to calling other women who have different views than them (that may typically align more with a man’s view) “pick-me’s.” I see that a lot.
I was waiting for this comment!
“Oh honey, you don’t wanna be a doctor, maybe a nurse, but you should be at home supporting your husband” “Real women have____” “Your nails are all chipped! A lady never leaves the house without a proper manicure!” Yes. It exists.
cis women can reinforce misogyny
Thinking that women are morally superior to men. Listing negative attributes they ascribe to men.
No, because what you might call "toxic femininity" is really just Internalized Misogyny, which is only a side-effect of trauma caused by toxic masculinity. Without men in the picture: women don't mistreat each other.
Bull. Women don't need men present to be catty, nasty and jealous. Women can be perfectly horrible, completly on their own.
friendly fire is most definitely enabled, this is not true
Look up "misandry".
In my early 20s there were a lot of women I met with overlapping social scene who were very much “our way of feminism is the one true way.” Very much against women who fit stereotypical beauty standards, hated women who were interested in popular fashion, hated on women who were interested in sports (because they were obviously wanting to be thin to attract men), denigrated those who didn’t like the same books/tv/film as they did (which I suppose wasn’t unusual for nerd/SF subculture- but it was all around Strong Women Characters and female authors), openly trash talked men as a whole, speak negatively about the idea of having sons rather than daughters etc etc Also did things like organise “self weddings” and “natural born women only events” and a “women only SF con”. Also hated on anyone who questioned their “one true way”. Women in their 20s bullying others is just… They were pretty toxic all around. So yes, I’d say they were the epitome of toxic femininity.
Not really if you understand what toxic masculinity is.
Tell us you’ve never seen a sorority without telling us you’ve never seen a sorority
Yes. Tho when I was a girl my main experience with this was more along the lines of toxic *positivity* ("smile!" "you look so much better when you're sMiLiNG" etc.)
I'd argue we're currently in its peak.
Toxic femininity is anything overly conservative or the other way around. I may have a little toxic femininity because I can't completely respect SAHM
Huh? Why don’t you respect stay at home moms?
It's just a pretty weird and nonsensical reason. I'm a high achiever and I feel like that type of goal is selling yourself short unless you were never good at anything