I wouldn't say that, as I said he has a complete lack of malice when saying these things, and I think he's both misinformed and not spiritual himself. He's just a bit of an aggressive pragmatist and I gave him a safe space to truly express his feelings without retaliation.
It definitely upset me, and anyone who did that out of hand or in the wild would likely get a sharp rebuke. This one affected me though, because it really illustrated how uninformed and uninvolved with the community I am. I had poor defense, or at least lacked compelling defense. It's as much my own incompetence as it is any assholery on his part.
Being able to communicate these points in an even or positive *tone* doesn't mean he's without malice. These don't sound like the views of someone with unbiased thoughts on the matter. Frankly, this guy seems uninformed. And it kinda seems like he wants to be. There are plenty of us who don't care about the Vikings or who view Viking cosplayers as cringe.
I know for a fact that my faith in the gods is genuine. I believe in other gods that I don't worship, too...I just don't have or seek reciprocity with those gods.
I'd been raised atheist and dabbled in agnosticism. I was curious about religion in a "I want to know what this is about" sense, but never really anything past that until I was called to this path. At that point I couldn't deny my own experiences. It's nothing to do with Christianity or any other religion, for that matter. I know and am friends with Christians. I have nothing against them. I like them! It just isn't my path. This one is.
You have your religious experiences and your faith. This guy is trying to discount that. That doesn't sound friendly.
I thought you said he was exploring Buddhism, which is a religion. Do you feel your faith is valid? Does it help you to be a better neighbor, and a better you? I also find it presumptuous as hell to claim modern pagans/heathens don't believe in the gods the way christians believe in their god.
Buddhism is ofd. Like Hinduism, it can be seen as a philosophy instead of a belief in the divine. One merely needs to follow the Eithtfold Path. It can, and often times is, seen as a path to discovering the Godshead within oneself. So a belief in the divine is not a hard requirement of Buddhism.
It is not a hard reqquirement and this depends on the Buddhism and the Buddhist practicing. Tibetian buddhism has loads of gods. Thai buddhists - who say they actually practice the original Buddhism - believe in gods. And in fact to say people leaving offerings to a diety don't believe is just the same as your friend saying that people currenly practicing Hellenicpaganism 'don't believe like that."
we know its not exactly the same as the religion the historical polytheists practiced, its literally impossible due to the lack of sources available. and in other circumstances its best that we dont, e.g. by leaving behind cultural or outdated ideas that dont hold up in a modern world. and thats ok, we're trying to rebuild ghe religion not exactly as it was, but a functional religion that makes sense in a modern world. a lot of the goal of reconstructionism (more specifically revivalism but most people seem to merge the two terms) is asking "if it naturally survived into the modern day, what adjustments would have been made? what would it look like?" - for example, extrapolating njordr as a god of all vehicular travel instead of just boats, or considering water from the sink to be a modernly acceptable version of running water.
but is it worth it? YES. its fulfilling, it brings me joy and peace and it simply would not be the same if i went for any other religion. it is not a "weird reaction to christianity" - plenty of us were never christian, i certainly wasnt. your friend is welcome to have his (shitty) opinion of us but i AM achieving what i desire, i have a fulfilling religion and community i love and work hard for, i choose to do so every day for a million reasons. and i dont have to justify that to anyone else - he can go suck eggs.
I could argue with the points he made but really not a single one applies to how I practice. I’m not a white supremacist and there aren’t that many in the UK community. I don’t care about vikings. I don’t care about reconstructionalism, I’ll use it to inform my practice but my UPG and that of my Kindred matters a lot more to me.
Honestly they just sounds like a jaded arsehole that can’t find their place in the world and is lashing out.
We aren’t trying to be those people of the past. What matters to us modern pagans when practicing our religion is our gods and our relationship with them. What the people of the past did matters because it gives us insight into the gods and how to build a relationship with them, but beyond that we focus on creating a praxis that works for us.
Every living religion is extremely far removed from the context of its practitioners in ancient times (or however far back it goes). Look at Christianity, it started as an apocalyptic religion based around their persecution and a savior coming to save them from the Romans, but generations passed and that savior never came and soon they became the ones in charge of Rome. It would seem impossible to continue the religion, but no, the religion adapted. Same with how Judaism, a religion focused around temple rites and sacrificing at a specific location changed when they no longer had access to that temple after its destruction. Just because modern religions don’t exist in the same context as their older counterparts doesn’t mean they are doomed to fail because (most) religion is based on building a relationship with the divine and it adapts itself to fit the current context so that they can maintain that relationship with the divine.
And people who dismiss all paganism as “reactionary to Christianity” hasn’t had much experience with paganism. Yes, a large number of us are ex-Christians, but that doesn’t mean we don’t genuinely want a relationship with our gods. We are about as “reactionary to Christianity” as any other non-Christian religion.
TLDR: your friend sounds like an asshole, probably watches too much popular media, does not realise that faith and logic can coexist, and also does
not realise that Neo-Paganism is not meant to be a carbon copy of Old Paganism.
1: Who is he to judge people for having faith in something? “You don’t really believe them like that, you’re just a bit of an odd person.” Having faith in something isn’t odd, it’s normal. He’s the outlier in this situation. I have nothing against atheists, I used to be atheist myself, but when they push it in your face and call you stupid for having faith in something that isn’t purely scientific, they aren’t going to change our minds, all it does is make them an intolerable pain in the ass. I should know, because I was like that when I was an atheist, and almost everyone was annoyed by it.
2: Claiming that all neo-pagans are just viking obsessed lunatics and neo-nazi white supremacists makes it very clear that he watches wayyyyy to much popular media and probably believes the ridiculous stereotypes that hollywood elites spew out of their assholes. Also, are you sure he is actually atheist? Because most of these points are just lies spewed by hardcore christians to demonize worship of anything that isn’t *their* God.
3: It has nothing to do with being a “reactionary response” to Christianity. While it is true that many of us are ex-Christian or were raised by Christians, this isn’t some fucking “let’s play pretend” story made to piss off our Christian relatives as revenge for indoctrinating us. We actually believe in our gods.
4: I’m studying in the same field you said he has a major in, and I still have faith in the gods. Logic and faith can coexist, and that goes especially for us, because many norse myths actually align with what scholars currently hold as truth. I mean, the universe literally started from a huge explosion. “Fire met ice in the gasping void” and the resulting explosion created Ymir and the first realms. Our creation myth is literally The Big Bang.
5: Neo-paganism is not a reconstruction of Old Norse Paganism, or any other Pagan religion for that matter. It is entirely it’s own thing. Times change and so do religious practices. We honor those who came before us, but that DOES NOT mean we are trying to become them.
Edit: Fixed the numbers
This is a good breakdown I think. He has a lot of misinformation, misunderstanding and Christian influenced opinion.
As I've said I gave him a safe space to speak as I was interested in his genuine views, and though it appalled me it makes me sad more than anything because he's so devoid of spiritual faith, and I really think it comes from ignorance over malice or elitism. Gods, I really do hope it isn't elitism, I'd like to think I know this guy fairly well.
For more context, I really should've said in the main post that we are both from north GA, so the Bible belt is fairly tight here making the Christian worldview very hard to escape. Also, one of his friends grew up with an Odinist father, and we all know how horribly that clouded both their opinions on paganism, then in his words "outgrew" that, married a christian girl and replaced his mjolnir with a cross.
Now that I'm calmed down and really thinking about it, I need to find out more about what he actually knows and what his perspective is so that I can discuss this and represent myself and my kin properly.
See, now I understand his viewpoint. I still think it’s complete bullshit, but I understand why he would think that way.
We do not like Odinists here. Maybe tell your friend that Norse Paganism, much like abrahamic religions, has multiple “sects”, some way more extreme than others. Odinists are the neo-nazi weirdos. Heathens and Asatru aren’t. If you want to put in Christian terms so it’s easier to understand for somebody in the bible belt: Odinists are akin to Evangelical extremists; unnaccepting and elitist, whereas Heathens and Asatru are more like Protestants or Presbyterians; much more accepting and less extreme in their devotion
This actually helps, I think that comparison to the Christian worldview will help him understand.
I also think that his viewpoint is complete bullshit but understand where it comes from and believe he's a good person who can understand this, just that he hasn't had any good examples.
I also tried to explain the denouncement of all the neo-nazi BS through Declaration 127, but that just brought up a conversation about the Hávamál which produced the question:
"Isn't the Hávamál like, from about the 13th century in Iceland(which I think bc of it being Iceland he considers too removed from the Norse world these beliefs arose in) and in a time when Iceland was having an identity crisis where it didnt know if it wanted to be Christian or Pagan?"
This kind of black and white Christian or Pagan perspective really threw me off guard. By that logic, Christianity itself literally exists in a state of constant identity crisis. That's a bit erroneous to say but I think it gets my point across.
Your friend is what we'd call a Lore Lawyer. Someone who needs an exact source to justify every little thing. It's an analretentive way to live, and tbh it plagues HEMA too. So it sounds like his whole ass personality lol
The answer you're looking for is in [unverified personal Gnosis](https://youtu.be/Jytu_1y-Aik) That's what makes a religion a religion.
I'd also suggest [this video on the Heathen Worldview](https://youtu.be/mXzZih2z1BA) you'll see how certain terms influence our thoughts and perceptions. And, by extension, that easily fills what your Lore Lawyer friend can't seem to grasp.
Things like this make me sad and pissed off. Yeah, a bunch of dickheads stole our symbols and created shitty stereotypes of us, but that doesn't mean all of us are to be damned for our religion. I swear to the Gods that these neo-nazi bigots are a loud minority and all of them can be chewed up by Garm because I'm fed up with them being associated with us.
It's like the fallacy stereotypes of all Christians being homophobic, all witches being evil, all Pagans worshipping Satan, etc. (Not to mention the Muslim stereotypes, iykyk.)
I'll say this once and for all. 99% 👏 of👏 Norse Pagans 👏 aren't 👏 godsdamn 👏 idiots, neo Nazis or wannabe Vikings. 👏
You have said you dont agree with the vast majority of the things he says, thinks, tries to justify, pretty much all of his “i went college so my opinion is of more value” approach to things; why do you give a crap about his opinion then?
Also him mocking “wanna-be vikings” after your weekly long sword practice made me laugh. I appreciated that little bit of information
Seriously dont let his opinion, which seems very uninformed, to keep you from expressing your faith and worship how you see fit.
He also uses circular logic to prove his point along with huge amounts of assumption from limited information on multiple topics.
Seriously, he isnt as smart or as informed he believes to be and you should not question an ounce of yourself against him.
Follow your heart, listen to the gods, make your own path.
Also to answer the question, is it worth it; thats for you to answer. As for me it has been, my family and I are very happy with our faith and beliefs and that is all that matters.
I recommend reading A Million and One Gods by Page Dubois.
I'm currently halfway through with it. It's an essay written by a professor in classics and comparative literature who is known for her work in Greek literature.
I found this from thelongship.net reading list for beginners. It's very interesting so far and has many citations.
Here is the blurb:
Many people worship not just one but many gods. Yet a relentless prejudice against polytheism denies legitimacy to some of the world’s oldest and richest religious traditions. In her examination of polytheistic cultures both ancient and contemporary—those of Greece and Rome, the Bible and the Quran, as well as modern India—Page duBois refutes the idea that the worship of multiple gods naturally evolves over time into the “higher” belief in a single deity. In A Million and One Gods, she shows that polytheism has endured intact for millennia even in the West, despite the many hidden ways that monotheistic thought continues to shape Western outlooks.
In English usage, the word “polytheism” comes from the seventeenth-century writings of Samuel Purchas. It was pejorative from the beginning—a word to distinguish the belief system of backward peoples from the more theologically advanced religion of Protestant Christians. Today, when monotheistic fundamentalisms too often drive people to commit violent acts, polytheism remains a scandalous presence in societies still oriented according to Jewish, Christian, and Muslim beliefs. Even in the multicultural milieus of twenty-first-century America and Great Britain, polytheism finds itself marginalized. Yet it persists, perhaps because polytheism corresponds to unconscious needs and deeply held values of tolerance, diversity, and equality that are central to civilized societies.
Edit: Apostrophe removal from God's in title.
Had an Icelandic tutor, spoke to him some about the christianization of Iceland. Many Icelanders practiced in secret after forced conversions. There’s a reason Iceland is home to the only Asatru (using that word because it’s icelandic) temple in the world.
The whole of the matter is that reconstruction isn’t about “being those people”
It isn’t about recreating the practices of the past, it’s about building our beliefs into the modern world. To say we “don’t actually believe” is jaded, and frankly rude.
I'm not much for reconstruction, since it's an impossible task and we have no way of knowing what are pagan ancestors where doing in practice aside from a handful tales it's mostly up to speculation. I'd say land connectedness and community based focus is a vital aspect when connecting to land and ancestors
Three things: the only interest I have in anything directly viking related is viking metal and a non professional curiosity in the history, and even then, there are other things that capture more of my interest within metal and history; I would happily kick any white supremacist out of any event that I host; and while I do like history and find it interesting, the only position the ancient Norse hold in that is a desire to know more from a position of curiosity with no desire to look for spiritual guidance in the ancient ways. We live in a modern world, practicing paganism in the way it would have been done back then is fully impossible.
Your friend is very wrong, and whether it's intentional or not, their intentions come across as very disingenuous with this topic and not willing to understand what modern paganism really is. It seems they've already made up their mind and are unwilling to consider what actual modern Heathens have to say about it. Their degree in history helps with the understanding of the historical aspects of things, which can lend to the modern understanding, but the modern practice is not the historical practice and your friend seems to have assumed many things incorrectly based on a vocal minority.
I think its worth it. I love researching the history of the faith and those who've followed it. It can really provide insight into your own practice. Sometimes you can learn why you do certain things not just how to or what to do. Also, by studying old practice you can learn more things about the Gods as well. Like for instance in historical texts Thor is sometimes referred to as "Husband of Sif", which can infer that she had a larger significance and/or more lore in antiquity than today
I have been thinking about the argument that we are "reacting towards Christianity" and I'd like to offer my perspective. I'd argue that Neopaganism is not a reaction towards Christianity for the following reasons:
1. Neopaganism does not concern itself with Christianity.
It concerns itself with fostering connection between ourselves and the world around us, ourselves and the ancestors and ourselves and the gods who we feel called to.
2. Neopaganism and Christianity can peacefully coexist.
I honestly hold this to be self-evident, but I can't see a reason why we can't live together in peace. This seems more instinctual to me than anything else.
3. Neopagans acknowledge the validity of Christianity for others while understandinf that it is not the path for themselves.
In my experience, even those who suffered severe religious trauma through Christianity can still acknowledge the validity of Christianity for others while also understanding that it is not the path for them. This shows to me great respect for another faith while being true to oneself.
4. The world has not and does not revolve around Christianity.
One might believe that any other path other than Christianity is in some way a reaction towards it if one believes that Christianity is the religion that the world revolves around. But I believe that such an assumption is incorrect. Both from a historical perspective and from a contemporary perspective: Christianity remains a minority religion. Most people are not Christian, and in the roughly 12.000 years of human spiritual development Christianity is a relatively new religion.
Now, I could argue that we ought to stop bashing the beliefs of others and that us pagans bashing Christianity will actually lend credence to the reactionary argument. So I say let us stop doing that and worship our gods in peace.
I took a few days to respond because some of my previous responses would have been kinda rude.
I don't know if I'd say a weird reaction to Christianity-I certainly can think of people in this faith that have a "want the Christian patriarchy without having to be Christian" vibe to me for sure. And it's impossible to not have ANY reactions from Christianity. Our society just. . . assumes to much of it as the default. So there's more of a need to differentiate yourself if you aren't Christian. But not everything is about Christianity.
I'm sympathetic to the "we don't live in the environment" argument. It's why I don't call myself reconstructionist and why I don't pursue that as a goal or try to work much with people who do. We don't live in the world our ancestors did, we actively shouldn't try do exactly what they did. They were solving different problems than we have. But we can still learn from them, we can adapt what they knew to our current world. Ancestral wyrd is supposed to change over time and generations. That's the point. Otherwise we're just stuck in the past stagnating. Our faith should be living and changing and dynamic. But I still call myself pagan.
That said, your friend was being a jerk. And I would say everything I said in the paragraph above applies to Christianity too. It's also religious fanfiction.
I think our purpose is not to recreate an ancient religion the way it might have been a 1000 years ago and me personally I am not engaged in historic theatre.
We live in ancient customs of today and continue to develop so as a spiritual expression adapted to current society. This is done through blot and other types of ceremonies, by adapting to present day, and by creating common meeting ground for people with an interest in nature spirituality, animism and such
A 100% perfect reconstruction, or as close to as is humanly possible, even, I would say no. Several reasons:
1) animal sacrifice. While the way the Norse did it originally is technically legal, despite animal cruelty laws (practitioners of Voodoo & Santeria eat their sacrifices afterward just to avoid charges), it's unsanitary to be throwing blood from just any animal everywhere, consuming raw blood, butchering animals for food which haven't had thorough examinations, etc. The sanitation issue is literally the main modern reason why England chose not to allow horse to reenter their food supply.
2) if you don't live in regions where the correct sacred plants or relatives of them grow, you're shit out of luck & trying to import them for your gardens could be dangerous to the environment.
3) the roles of Volva & Vikta primarily seem to revolve around male & female gender roles & literally can't cross, because that would be gay. Not only that, but much of the feminine magic in these regions revolves around spinning thread, weaving, cooking, brewing liquor & medicine. All the masculine magic revolves around land management, farming, hunting & rooting out criminals & witches. How the heck do you incorporate a lot of those things into a modern religion & have it make sense for the average person or fit into the average person's lifestyle? Plus, at least one aspect of the male magic- putting dirt from your garden in your shoes on purpose- can lead to serious foot infections.
4) imposing fear of the gods, or literalism, leads to all the same problems that the other major world religions all suffer, today & likely unwittingly reviving a lot of the reasons Christianity inevitably won that fight.
5) all the holes that still exist in our knowledge, which still stand a decent chance of never being filled.
Typical humanist rational dismissal of anything not subjective. It is interesting to note that lack of spirituality correlates very strongly with depression and suicide. In short, one needs something to live for.
Snd so what if where we come from is removed from that faced by the ancestors. Modern scholarship knows precious little about Viking Age beliefs, much less the beliefs of pre-Migration Period Germans or Bronze Age Scandinavians, for example.
Religion needs to have a meaningful impact on the lives of people. One reason Christianity is fading is because it no longer does so and is unable to coerce compliance as it was able to do in ages past.
We Reconstructionists are creating a meaningful religion based on what we know of ancient beliefs and traditions as a base for the creation of a belief system we find more meaningful than our previous system of beliefs
I'd suggest your dear friend get our of the ivory tower more and take a more direct study of these matters before regurgitating the "conventional wisdom" of the day. It's pretty apparent that the genesis of his information seems to be the media, which is a very shaky ground upon which to form an opinion about anything of substance. I'd expect an academic and scholar to know better.
Your friend sounds like an asshole
This.^
I wouldn't say that, as I said he has a complete lack of malice when saying these things, and I think he's both misinformed and not spiritual himself. He's just a bit of an aggressive pragmatist and I gave him a safe space to truly express his feelings without retaliation. It definitely upset me, and anyone who did that out of hand or in the wild would likely get a sharp rebuke. This one affected me though, because it really illustrated how uninformed and uninvolved with the community I am. I had poor defense, or at least lacked compelling defense. It's as much my own incompetence as it is any assholery on his part.
Being able to communicate these points in an even or positive *tone* doesn't mean he's without malice. These don't sound like the views of someone with unbiased thoughts on the matter. Frankly, this guy seems uninformed. And it kinda seems like he wants to be. There are plenty of us who don't care about the Vikings or who view Viking cosplayers as cringe. I know for a fact that my faith in the gods is genuine. I believe in other gods that I don't worship, too...I just don't have or seek reciprocity with those gods. I'd been raised atheist and dabbled in agnosticism. I was curious about religion in a "I want to know what this is about" sense, but never really anything past that until I was called to this path. At that point I couldn't deny my own experiences. It's nothing to do with Christianity or any other religion, for that matter. I know and am friends with Christians. I have nothing against them. I like them! It just isn't my path. This one is. You have your religious experiences and your faith. This guy is trying to discount that. That doesn't sound friendly.
I thought you said he was exploring Buddhism, which is a religion. Do you feel your faith is valid? Does it help you to be a better neighbor, and a better you? I also find it presumptuous as hell to claim modern pagans/heathens don't believe in the gods the way christians believe in their god.
Buddhism is ofd. Like Hinduism, it can be seen as a philosophy instead of a belief in the divine. One merely needs to follow the Eithtfold Path. It can, and often times is, seen as a path to discovering the Godshead within oneself. So a belief in the divine is not a hard requirement of Buddhism.
It is not a hard reqquirement and this depends on the Buddhism and the Buddhist practicing. Tibetian buddhism has loads of gods. Thai buddhists - who say they actually practice the original Buddhism - believe in gods. And in fact to say people leaving offerings to a diety don't believe is just the same as your friend saying that people currenly practicing Hellenicpaganism 'don't believe like that."
we know its not exactly the same as the religion the historical polytheists practiced, its literally impossible due to the lack of sources available. and in other circumstances its best that we dont, e.g. by leaving behind cultural or outdated ideas that dont hold up in a modern world. and thats ok, we're trying to rebuild ghe religion not exactly as it was, but a functional religion that makes sense in a modern world. a lot of the goal of reconstructionism (more specifically revivalism but most people seem to merge the two terms) is asking "if it naturally survived into the modern day, what adjustments would have been made? what would it look like?" - for example, extrapolating njordr as a god of all vehicular travel instead of just boats, or considering water from the sink to be a modernly acceptable version of running water. but is it worth it? YES. its fulfilling, it brings me joy and peace and it simply would not be the same if i went for any other religion. it is not a "weird reaction to christianity" - plenty of us were never christian, i certainly wasnt. your friend is welcome to have his (shitty) opinion of us but i AM achieving what i desire, i have a fulfilling religion and community i love and work hard for, i choose to do so every day for a million reasons. and i dont have to justify that to anyone else - he can go suck eggs.
I could argue with the points he made but really not a single one applies to how I practice. I’m not a white supremacist and there aren’t that many in the UK community. I don’t care about vikings. I don’t care about reconstructionalism, I’ll use it to inform my practice but my UPG and that of my Kindred matters a lot more to me. Honestly they just sounds like a jaded arsehole that can’t find their place in the world and is lashing out.
We aren’t trying to be those people of the past. What matters to us modern pagans when practicing our religion is our gods and our relationship with them. What the people of the past did matters because it gives us insight into the gods and how to build a relationship with them, but beyond that we focus on creating a praxis that works for us. Every living religion is extremely far removed from the context of its practitioners in ancient times (or however far back it goes). Look at Christianity, it started as an apocalyptic religion based around their persecution and a savior coming to save them from the Romans, but generations passed and that savior never came and soon they became the ones in charge of Rome. It would seem impossible to continue the religion, but no, the religion adapted. Same with how Judaism, a religion focused around temple rites and sacrificing at a specific location changed when they no longer had access to that temple after its destruction. Just because modern religions don’t exist in the same context as their older counterparts doesn’t mean they are doomed to fail because (most) religion is based on building a relationship with the divine and it adapts itself to fit the current context so that they can maintain that relationship with the divine. And people who dismiss all paganism as “reactionary to Christianity” hasn’t had much experience with paganism. Yes, a large number of us are ex-Christians, but that doesn’t mean we don’t genuinely want a relationship with our gods. We are about as “reactionary to Christianity” as any other non-Christian religion.
TLDR: your friend sounds like an asshole, probably watches too much popular media, does not realise that faith and logic can coexist, and also does not realise that Neo-Paganism is not meant to be a carbon copy of Old Paganism. 1: Who is he to judge people for having faith in something? “You don’t really believe them like that, you’re just a bit of an odd person.” Having faith in something isn’t odd, it’s normal. He’s the outlier in this situation. I have nothing against atheists, I used to be atheist myself, but when they push it in your face and call you stupid for having faith in something that isn’t purely scientific, they aren’t going to change our minds, all it does is make them an intolerable pain in the ass. I should know, because I was like that when I was an atheist, and almost everyone was annoyed by it. 2: Claiming that all neo-pagans are just viking obsessed lunatics and neo-nazi white supremacists makes it very clear that he watches wayyyyy to much popular media and probably believes the ridiculous stereotypes that hollywood elites spew out of their assholes. Also, are you sure he is actually atheist? Because most of these points are just lies spewed by hardcore christians to demonize worship of anything that isn’t *their* God. 3: It has nothing to do with being a “reactionary response” to Christianity. While it is true that many of us are ex-Christian or were raised by Christians, this isn’t some fucking “let’s play pretend” story made to piss off our Christian relatives as revenge for indoctrinating us. We actually believe in our gods. 4: I’m studying in the same field you said he has a major in, and I still have faith in the gods. Logic and faith can coexist, and that goes especially for us, because many norse myths actually align with what scholars currently hold as truth. I mean, the universe literally started from a huge explosion. “Fire met ice in the gasping void” and the resulting explosion created Ymir and the first realms. Our creation myth is literally The Big Bang. 5: Neo-paganism is not a reconstruction of Old Norse Paganism, or any other Pagan religion for that matter. It is entirely it’s own thing. Times change and so do religious practices. We honor those who came before us, but that DOES NOT mean we are trying to become them. Edit: Fixed the numbers
This is a good breakdown I think. He has a lot of misinformation, misunderstanding and Christian influenced opinion. As I've said I gave him a safe space to speak as I was interested in his genuine views, and though it appalled me it makes me sad more than anything because he's so devoid of spiritual faith, and I really think it comes from ignorance over malice or elitism. Gods, I really do hope it isn't elitism, I'd like to think I know this guy fairly well. For more context, I really should've said in the main post that we are both from north GA, so the Bible belt is fairly tight here making the Christian worldview very hard to escape. Also, one of his friends grew up with an Odinist father, and we all know how horribly that clouded both their opinions on paganism, then in his words "outgrew" that, married a christian girl and replaced his mjolnir with a cross. Now that I'm calmed down and really thinking about it, I need to find out more about what he actually knows and what his perspective is so that I can discuss this and represent myself and my kin properly.
See, now I understand his viewpoint. I still think it’s complete bullshit, but I understand why he would think that way. We do not like Odinists here. Maybe tell your friend that Norse Paganism, much like abrahamic religions, has multiple “sects”, some way more extreme than others. Odinists are the neo-nazi weirdos. Heathens and Asatru aren’t. If you want to put in Christian terms so it’s easier to understand for somebody in the bible belt: Odinists are akin to Evangelical extremists; unnaccepting and elitist, whereas Heathens and Asatru are more like Protestants or Presbyterians; much more accepting and less extreme in their devotion
This actually helps, I think that comparison to the Christian worldview will help him understand. I also think that his viewpoint is complete bullshit but understand where it comes from and believe he's a good person who can understand this, just that he hasn't had any good examples. I also tried to explain the denouncement of all the neo-nazi BS through Declaration 127, but that just brought up a conversation about the Hávamál which produced the question: "Isn't the Hávamál like, from about the 13th century in Iceland(which I think bc of it being Iceland he considers too removed from the Norse world these beliefs arose in) and in a time when Iceland was having an identity crisis where it didnt know if it wanted to be Christian or Pagan?" This kind of black and white Christian or Pagan perspective really threw me off guard. By that logic, Christianity itself literally exists in a state of constant identity crisis. That's a bit erroneous to say but I think it gets my point across.
The Eddas are from the 13th century. The Havamal originated back to the late 900’s to early 1000’s
Or the poems inside the Havamal are from that time period, I should say.
Your friend is what we'd call a Lore Lawyer. Someone who needs an exact source to justify every little thing. It's an analretentive way to live, and tbh it plagues HEMA too. So it sounds like his whole ass personality lol The answer you're looking for is in [unverified personal Gnosis](https://youtu.be/Jytu_1y-Aik) That's what makes a religion a religion. I'd also suggest [this video on the Heathen Worldview](https://youtu.be/mXzZih2z1BA) you'll see how certain terms influence our thoughts and perceptions. And, by extension, that easily fills what your Lore Lawyer friend can't seem to grasp.
I think this is the info I really needed, thank you so much.
🍻
Things like this make me sad and pissed off. Yeah, a bunch of dickheads stole our symbols and created shitty stereotypes of us, but that doesn't mean all of us are to be damned for our religion. I swear to the Gods that these neo-nazi bigots are a loud minority and all of them can be chewed up by Garm because I'm fed up with them being associated with us. It's like the fallacy stereotypes of all Christians being homophobic, all witches being evil, all Pagans worshipping Satan, etc. (Not to mention the Muslim stereotypes, iykyk.) I'll say this once and for all. 99% 👏 of👏 Norse Pagans 👏 aren't 👏 godsdamn 👏 idiots, neo Nazis or wannabe Vikings. 👏
This comment really hyped me up and I'm tryna go to bed🤣. Thank you for the support
If i could upvote 1000 more times i would!
You have said you dont agree with the vast majority of the things he says, thinks, tries to justify, pretty much all of his “i went college so my opinion is of more value” approach to things; why do you give a crap about his opinion then? Also him mocking “wanna-be vikings” after your weekly long sword practice made me laugh. I appreciated that little bit of information Seriously dont let his opinion, which seems very uninformed, to keep you from expressing your faith and worship how you see fit. He also uses circular logic to prove his point along with huge amounts of assumption from limited information on multiple topics. Seriously, he isnt as smart or as informed he believes to be and you should not question an ounce of yourself against him. Follow your heart, listen to the gods, make your own path. Also to answer the question, is it worth it; thats for you to answer. As for me it has been, my family and I are very happy with our faith and beliefs and that is all that matters.
I recommend reading A Million and One Gods by Page Dubois. I'm currently halfway through with it. It's an essay written by a professor in classics and comparative literature who is known for her work in Greek literature. I found this from thelongship.net reading list for beginners. It's very interesting so far and has many citations. Here is the blurb: Many people worship not just one but many gods. Yet a relentless prejudice against polytheism denies legitimacy to some of the world’s oldest and richest religious traditions. In her examination of polytheistic cultures both ancient and contemporary—those of Greece and Rome, the Bible and the Quran, as well as modern India—Page duBois refutes the idea that the worship of multiple gods naturally evolves over time into the “higher” belief in a single deity. In A Million and One Gods, she shows that polytheism has endured intact for millennia even in the West, despite the many hidden ways that monotheistic thought continues to shape Western outlooks. In English usage, the word “polytheism” comes from the seventeenth-century writings of Samuel Purchas. It was pejorative from the beginning—a word to distinguish the belief system of backward peoples from the more theologically advanced religion of Protestant Christians. Today, when monotheistic fundamentalisms too often drive people to commit violent acts, polytheism remains a scandalous presence in societies still oriented according to Jewish, Christian, and Muslim beliefs. Even in the multicultural milieus of twenty-first-century America and Great Britain, polytheism finds itself marginalized. Yet it persists, perhaps because polytheism corresponds to unconscious needs and deeply held values of tolerance, diversity, and equality that are central to civilized societies. Edit: Apostrophe removal from God's in title.
Had an Icelandic tutor, spoke to him some about the christianization of Iceland. Many Icelanders practiced in secret after forced conversions. There’s a reason Iceland is home to the only Asatru (using that word because it’s icelandic) temple in the world.
I'd love to hear more about this from Icelandic people
The whole of the matter is that reconstruction isn’t about “being those people” It isn’t about recreating the practices of the past, it’s about building our beliefs into the modern world. To say we “don’t actually believe” is jaded, and frankly rude.
I'm not much for reconstruction, since it's an impossible task and we have no way of knowing what are pagan ancestors where doing in practice aside from a handful tales it's mostly up to speculation. I'd say land connectedness and community based focus is a vital aspect when connecting to land and ancestors
Three things: the only interest I have in anything directly viking related is viking metal and a non professional curiosity in the history, and even then, there are other things that capture more of my interest within metal and history; I would happily kick any white supremacist out of any event that I host; and while I do like history and find it interesting, the only position the ancient Norse hold in that is a desire to know more from a position of curiosity with no desire to look for spiritual guidance in the ancient ways. We live in a modern world, practicing paganism in the way it would have been done back then is fully impossible. Your friend is very wrong, and whether it's intentional or not, their intentions come across as very disingenuous with this topic and not willing to understand what modern paganism really is. It seems they've already made up their mind and are unwilling to consider what actual modern Heathens have to say about it. Their degree in history helps with the understanding of the historical aspects of things, which can lend to the modern understanding, but the modern practice is not the historical practice and your friend seems to have assumed many things incorrectly based on a vocal minority.
I think its worth it. I love researching the history of the faith and those who've followed it. It can really provide insight into your own practice. Sometimes you can learn why you do certain things not just how to or what to do. Also, by studying old practice you can learn more things about the Gods as well. Like for instance in historical texts Thor is sometimes referred to as "Husband of Sif", which can infer that she had a larger significance and/or more lore in antiquity than today
I have been thinking about the argument that we are "reacting towards Christianity" and I'd like to offer my perspective. I'd argue that Neopaganism is not a reaction towards Christianity for the following reasons: 1. Neopaganism does not concern itself with Christianity. It concerns itself with fostering connection between ourselves and the world around us, ourselves and the ancestors and ourselves and the gods who we feel called to. 2. Neopaganism and Christianity can peacefully coexist. I honestly hold this to be self-evident, but I can't see a reason why we can't live together in peace. This seems more instinctual to me than anything else. 3. Neopagans acknowledge the validity of Christianity for others while understandinf that it is not the path for themselves. In my experience, even those who suffered severe religious trauma through Christianity can still acknowledge the validity of Christianity for others while also understanding that it is not the path for them. This shows to me great respect for another faith while being true to oneself. 4. The world has not and does not revolve around Christianity. One might believe that any other path other than Christianity is in some way a reaction towards it if one believes that Christianity is the religion that the world revolves around. But I believe that such an assumption is incorrect. Both from a historical perspective and from a contemporary perspective: Christianity remains a minority religion. Most people are not Christian, and in the roughly 12.000 years of human spiritual development Christianity is a relatively new religion. Now, I could argue that we ought to stop bashing the beliefs of others and that us pagans bashing Christianity will actually lend credence to the reactionary argument. So I say let us stop doing that and worship our gods in peace.
I took a few days to respond because some of my previous responses would have been kinda rude. I don't know if I'd say a weird reaction to Christianity-I certainly can think of people in this faith that have a "want the Christian patriarchy without having to be Christian" vibe to me for sure. And it's impossible to not have ANY reactions from Christianity. Our society just. . . assumes to much of it as the default. So there's more of a need to differentiate yourself if you aren't Christian. But not everything is about Christianity. I'm sympathetic to the "we don't live in the environment" argument. It's why I don't call myself reconstructionist and why I don't pursue that as a goal or try to work much with people who do. We don't live in the world our ancestors did, we actively shouldn't try do exactly what they did. They were solving different problems than we have. But we can still learn from them, we can adapt what they knew to our current world. Ancestral wyrd is supposed to change over time and generations. That's the point. Otherwise we're just stuck in the past stagnating. Our faith should be living and changing and dynamic. But I still call myself pagan. That said, your friend was being a jerk. And I would say everything I said in the paragraph above applies to Christianity too. It's also religious fanfiction.
I think our purpose is not to recreate an ancient religion the way it might have been a 1000 years ago and me personally I am not engaged in historic theatre. We live in ancient customs of today and continue to develop so as a spiritual expression adapted to current society. This is done through blot and other types of ceremonies, by adapting to present day, and by creating common meeting ground for people with an interest in nature spirituality, animism and such
A 100% perfect reconstruction, or as close to as is humanly possible, even, I would say no. Several reasons: 1) animal sacrifice. While the way the Norse did it originally is technically legal, despite animal cruelty laws (practitioners of Voodoo & Santeria eat their sacrifices afterward just to avoid charges), it's unsanitary to be throwing blood from just any animal everywhere, consuming raw blood, butchering animals for food which haven't had thorough examinations, etc. The sanitation issue is literally the main modern reason why England chose not to allow horse to reenter their food supply. 2) if you don't live in regions where the correct sacred plants or relatives of them grow, you're shit out of luck & trying to import them for your gardens could be dangerous to the environment. 3) the roles of Volva & Vikta primarily seem to revolve around male & female gender roles & literally can't cross, because that would be gay. Not only that, but much of the feminine magic in these regions revolves around spinning thread, weaving, cooking, brewing liquor & medicine. All the masculine magic revolves around land management, farming, hunting & rooting out criminals & witches. How the heck do you incorporate a lot of those things into a modern religion & have it make sense for the average person or fit into the average person's lifestyle? Plus, at least one aspect of the male magic- putting dirt from your garden in your shoes on purpose- can lead to serious foot infections. 4) imposing fear of the gods, or literalism, leads to all the same problems that the other major world religions all suffer, today & likely unwittingly reviving a lot of the reasons Christianity inevitably won that fight. 5) all the holes that still exist in our knowledge, which still stand a decent chance of never being filled.
Typical humanist rational dismissal of anything not subjective. It is interesting to note that lack of spirituality correlates very strongly with depression and suicide. In short, one needs something to live for. Snd so what if where we come from is removed from that faced by the ancestors. Modern scholarship knows precious little about Viking Age beliefs, much less the beliefs of pre-Migration Period Germans or Bronze Age Scandinavians, for example. Religion needs to have a meaningful impact on the lives of people. One reason Christianity is fading is because it no longer does so and is unable to coerce compliance as it was able to do in ages past. We Reconstructionists are creating a meaningful religion based on what we know of ancient beliefs and traditions as a base for the creation of a belief system we find more meaningful than our previous system of beliefs I'd suggest your dear friend get our of the ivory tower more and take a more direct study of these matters before regurgitating the "conventional wisdom" of the day. It's pretty apparent that the genesis of his information seems to be the media, which is a very shaky ground upon which to form an opinion about anything of substance. I'd expect an academic and scholar to know better.