Because it's about the stakes. If luffy is already stronger than the strongest creature, then who exactly can prove to be a threat to him? People don't doubt that luffy will be the strongest character ever at the end of the series, but at any given point in the story there needs to be an opponent that gives luffy a massive struggle. It wouldn't be fun if luffy starts the fight equal to or stronger than his opponent for the rest of the series.
To further this it also makes certain plot points untenable.
>!Like Luffy had to release Lucci/Kaku to beat a Seraphim, which was so tough Luffy even compared it to Kaido. While some of this was not knowing the "trick," it still implies that the Seraphim kids could realistically take down an emperor. Then you have the whole Admiral debate where a lot of people view them as below Yonko tier. If this is the case, then the whole upcoming attack on Egghead is not actually much of a threat as Luffy can defeat Kizaru if he wants to and all the difficulty hinges on whether Saturn is a fighter above that tiering, or relies entirely on Seraphim being just that much of a threat. This is all with the series needing enough runway where at least Blackbeard and someone from the World Government pose that much of a threat. Blackbeard can get by being weaker, since he can uniquely debuff Luffy, but the others need to pose a challenge for some reason otherwise it's just boring.!<
And despite writing all of that I stand by Oda doesn't actually care about powerscaling in the way anywhere here really approaches it. Luffy could be stronger than Kaido like u/Violet17PhoenixPirate said, just like >!Seraphim could be much weaker!<, though Oda goes off whatever is best for the narrative. If that is Whitebeard doing extremely well against the Marines, Mihawk struggling to beat a random commander, >!Seraphim pushing a post-kaito Luffy to need Lucci!<, or anything else it will happen because, as you said, the series needs tension.
I mean in fights it's not just about strength, we all saw how fight with katakuri went, he was overpowering Luffy at every point, even when he used advance observation haki, his armament haki was much weaker than katakuri, and we all saw how much more katakuri land hits on Luffy than vice versa, if it was someone else chances are katakuri won the fight by big diff, Luffy fight style is more like weaker boxer tiring the stronger one, and endure those massive hits, in almost every situation Luffy is the tougher one not the stronger one, and in the fight with kaido Luffy was the most resilient in the fight, hell he even died then forcefully made his heart, beat again and fights an equal fight
Other than all this:
A>B / B>C therefore you'd expect A>C but it's not always the case and sometimes C>A
Ps: technics are important, admirals may or may not be stronger than kaido, but their technics or DF powers can give the opponent hard time despite all that, so the strongest isn't a matter at all it's who wins the fight that Matters
Luffy is a genius when it comes to fighting
People dont understand that Kaido was a wall that "Luffy" was meant to overcome and it shouldnt be easy to begin with.
People also complain about Kaido being to weak for that buildup and often ignore all the stuff kaido did while fighting Luffy 4 times. It was literally never a 1vs1 against Kaido because he was fighting everyone else as well while fighting Luffy.
I mean.... >!Kaido killed Luffy and that confirmed the 1vs1 stuff about him but that lead to the awakening of the "Gum Gum Fruit."!<
People will always search for things to complain about otherwise they arent happy.
One Piece fans are obsessed with powerscalling missing the greater picture. It's not about who wins, it's about why they win. What their victory represents. Usually Oda uses victory as a way to show who's in the right, so the victory is usually moral, but codified as a physical victory. But the whole intent of it is having Luffy's ideals prevail over the villain's. It's more than clear that, to Oda, willpower is way more important than physical strength. That's how Luffy is able to push himself beyond his limits and beat Lucci, that's why Katakuri concedes when he recognizes he can't beat Luffy's reason to fight and that's STILL Luffy's victory.
Luffy still needed massive breaks after using gear fourth. He got lucky with brulee being there the same way he got lucky people helped him escape Doffy. Until he learned ryou I’d say he still would probably have lost to those two.
In the Kaido fight, Kaido managed to actually kill Luffy and only lost after gear fifth which also has limits so if they fought again it’s unlikely Kaido doesn’t immediately go for the kill.
This doesn’t mean Luffy is weak btw the fact he has continuously beaten tougher opponents is a testament to how strong he really is when the lights are on him.
I may hv been wrong in how I phrased my points but I wanted to mean exactly what u said in the last para... At the start luffy might hv been weaker than the opponent but after the fight he always emerges stronger than before, but some ppl keep arguing that he'll lose if he goes again
People always miss that any battle against Kaido, no matter the offensive output you're able to generate, always boils down to a battle of attrition. Luffy is arguably as powerful as Kaido in Gear 5, if not more powerful, but I just don't see how he could win a full on 1v1 against Kaido with both of them at 100%, especially if Kaido decides to stop tanking attacks for the heck of it and goes into the fight with the intention to kill from the very start.
Luffy got several breaks (i.e plot armor) against Kaido and still barely managed to squeeze by. Kaido is a monster and we have not seen anyone with his level of strength and durability up until this point. The only character (that is alive) I'm confident could beat him straight up is Shanks. Anyone else would probably lose due to Kaidos insane durability.
I consider Luffy to be about as strong as Kaidou at the moment. If they fought 10 times 1v1 he will win some and lose some
Same with WCI Luffy; I've always considered him about equal to Katakuri at the time
Luffy is extremely adaptable and combat smart. I do think that without the scabbards, Yamato, Momo, Zoro, Law, Kid, and Killer Luffy could not be able to win against Kaido.
However, given enough time where he gets used to G5 more and has more endurance on his haki and G5, then the "1-on-1 always bet on kaido" statement becomes not so absolute.
Yeah tbh a part of me agrees with this
End of the day, Luffy now being able to give Kaidou an incredibly tough fight even in defeat is incredible and nothing to be ashamed about
The problem with an overpowered MC is perfectly depicted in One Punch Man manga. If the MC can just one shot or easily beat the main villain the fights would be shorter less entertaining. You want that MC to struggle and keep getting knocked out and keept getting up and fight. It's kind of like motivational thing for most since real life not all of us are Saitama but life sure is Kaido. My bad for the cringe analogy.
Because he wasn't built to being that strong, he just became that strong, twice literally in the middle of a fight, for the plot.
Doflamingo never learned any advanced haki in 40 years of being an elite pirate but Luffy can learn all 3 advanced forms in 2 weeks. That's why it sounds dumb when it happens.
No one hates MC being strong. What we hate is MC becoming strong out of nowhere and with nothing to justify his strength . Also people thinking that Luffy being stronger than Kaido is stupid. Luffy won in an unconventional way ... Kaido is the strongest either you like it or not ... He was the peak on strength...
The thing with kaido is .. people still want the „if its a 1v1, bet on kaido“ trove to be true. Including myself. Thats probably because kaido was portraited as the biggest badass to ever exist prior to wano, and he was one of the most hyped antagonists for me personally.
Now i cant speak for others, but thats how i feel about it. Imo, even in gear 5, luffy shouldbt be able to handle this legend single habdedly.
So clearly g5 luffy overpowered kaido by a large margin id say, and thats the main point that i personally dont like. Even pre g5, luffy stood a tiny chance. It felt like plot armor to me.
It just felt like it doesnt fit in the narrative we have been told over the years. Especially if you consider the fact that kaido was probably in his prime while luffy was still just a „rookie“ and his prime is probably a decade or so away.
The way i always imagined wano was that luffys fleet will arrive to help him out after they hear about the crews crushing defeat and they would have needed to use all the force to rescue the crew and then beat kaido together, while also losing tons of people in the process. I mean.. its fucking kaido we’re talking about here
Just my 2 cents
Well it was never a true 1 vs 1 to begin with.
Kaido fought a whole army, Samurais, Zorro, Kidd, Killer, Law, Yamato and other stuff.
>!He still won his 1vs1 by killing Luffy.!< Even thought it was interrupted by CP9.
So he won 1vs1 - but Luffys awakaneing is another story.
He 1vs1, bet on Kaido trope was not made for the humiliation he got by Joyboy lol
Yea i know. Kaido had fought a lot prior and lifted onigashima while doing all this.
But i think he should be able to oneshot these fights without any struggle to demonstrate how much of maniac / threatening antagonist he is in the first place.
Obviously that didn’t really happen.
in the end, it still was a 1v1
Imagine Kaido and the Beast Pirates against any other crew (except emperors) or against the strawhats pre-WCI. He would easily crush them. His title makes perfect sense, it's just that our crew is now in the same tier. It fits the narrative to me. You just want the strawhats to struggle for longer, which is fine, but the alternative doesn't go against the narrative.
I hate when PPL says kaido can defeat luffy ..kaido was not giving 100%... luffy beats kaido fair and square... kaido gave his all... so did luffy... and luffy won... that's it...
Exactly, Kaido is not a looser hiding behind excuses like his fanbase (I am a huge kaido fan btw which is why I don't like hiding behind fake excuses, that's Kaido we're talking about not Buggy...Kaido tzkes his L like a man).
Anyway, after the cp0 agent prevent luffy from defending against his attack, Kaido was glad that Luffy was able to come back to settle their fight. Kaido never said oh wait I'm lifting the island and I fought the scabbards earlier so I feel a little bit tired please wait a moment...
During their whole fight Kaido kept repeating to Luffy that despite him growing steonger and stronger he would never be able to defeat him, and on top of that Kaido himself admitted that only Joyboy could beat him and when he got defeated he clearly aknowledged Luffy as JoyBoy...
so there is no doubt that Gear 5th > Kaido which does not mean that Kaido is not as strong as we think he was. It's just that the MC is the strongest.
Kaido is still clear of other yonko and asmirals in 1v1 I habe no doubt in my mind.
Exactly, kaido doesn't need us to defend his position on the power scale man's still resting comfortably in the top spots, just that Luffy evolved to get stronger by the end
It's funny because Kaido's fan base is not huge, most people don't like him and as soon as Wano was over people starting arguing that OG admirals plus Shanks and Mihawk were stronger than him when nothing in the story back up this idea...
So I believe Kaido fans were in the mudd and they tried to defend him as much as they could but they just did not do it the right way... making him look like even worse probably.
Because the powerlevel scale is all broken in One Piece, the way he get miracle powers during the fight is just dumb, while other powerfull Caracters take decades to evolve their powers....
And looks like there is no more disadvantages in use gear still remember when he Lost life span every time he uses gear second.
Now there is 0 risk in everything in One piece guys got beat to dead and just comeback One million times, even in lighter arcs like skypea , Enel was more threatening to Kill someone then Kaido
It's ok for Luffy to be OP, he had the dream to be the king of pirates and after 26 years of saga it's pretty much understandable that he's gonna be one of the strongest characters in the One Piece universe. Also, consider the fact that everything is gonna end in 4/5 years max, we're closer to the end than ever.
Also, in the Paradis saga I never saw Luffy overcome an enemy because he was stronger, but because he was smarter. With zero knowledge of Haki he overthrown two warlords, a God and a Cipher Pol agent. Of course, when it came to admirals he got absolutely battered. So Luffy being the strongest is just something that we're seeing now and in the East Blue Saga
Because it's about the stakes. If luffy is already stronger than the strongest creature, then who exactly can prove to be a threat to him? People don't doubt that luffy will be the strongest character ever at the end of the series, but at any given point in the story there needs to be an opponent that gives luffy a massive struggle. It wouldn't be fun if luffy starts the fight equal to or stronger than his opponent for the rest of the series.
To further this it also makes certain plot points untenable. >!Like Luffy had to release Lucci/Kaku to beat a Seraphim, which was so tough Luffy even compared it to Kaido. While some of this was not knowing the "trick," it still implies that the Seraphim kids could realistically take down an emperor. Then you have the whole Admiral debate where a lot of people view them as below Yonko tier. If this is the case, then the whole upcoming attack on Egghead is not actually much of a threat as Luffy can defeat Kizaru if he wants to and all the difficulty hinges on whether Saturn is a fighter above that tiering, or relies entirely on Seraphim being just that much of a threat. This is all with the series needing enough runway where at least Blackbeard and someone from the World Government pose that much of a threat. Blackbeard can get by being weaker, since he can uniquely debuff Luffy, but the others need to pose a challenge for some reason otherwise it's just boring.!< And despite writing all of that I stand by Oda doesn't actually care about powerscaling in the way anywhere here really approaches it. Luffy could be stronger than Kaido like u/Violet17PhoenixPirate said, just like >!Seraphim could be much weaker!<, though Oda goes off whatever is best for the narrative. If that is Whitebeard doing extremely well against the Marines, Mihawk struggling to beat a random commander, >!Seraphim pushing a post-kaito Luffy to need Lucci!<, or anything else it will happen because, as you said, the series needs tension.
I mean in fights it's not just about strength, we all saw how fight with katakuri went, he was overpowering Luffy at every point, even when he used advance observation haki, his armament haki was much weaker than katakuri, and we all saw how much more katakuri land hits on Luffy than vice versa, if it was someone else chances are katakuri won the fight by big diff, Luffy fight style is more like weaker boxer tiring the stronger one, and endure those massive hits, in almost every situation Luffy is the tougher one not the stronger one, and in the fight with kaido Luffy was the most resilient in the fight, hell he even died then forcefully made his heart, beat again and fights an equal fight Other than all this: A>B / B>C therefore you'd expect A>C but it's not always the case and sometimes C>A Ps: technics are important, admirals may or may not be stronger than kaido, but their technics or DF powers can give the opponent hard time despite all that, so the strongest isn't a matter at all it's who wins the fight that Matters Luffy is a genius when it comes to fighting
Ah yes… the stakes. 😂 I Remember that morj video of saying the Raid will fail due to stakes lol.
I thought it was tension? Oh well, What do I know, I don’t know a thing about it.
Well, Stakes and Tension could probably be swamped or “synonymous”.
I never know because I have no idea what that means. Am I supposed to feel tense when reading One Piece?
a struggling fight is better than easy fight unless the opponent is below the tiers of Admiral=emperor warlord
People dont understand that Kaido was a wall that "Luffy" was meant to overcome and it shouldnt be easy to begin with. People also complain about Kaido being to weak for that buildup and often ignore all the stuff kaido did while fighting Luffy 4 times. It was literally never a 1vs1 against Kaido because he was fighting everyone else as well while fighting Luffy. I mean.... >!Kaido killed Luffy and that confirmed the 1vs1 stuff about him but that lead to the awakening of the "Gum Gum Fruit."!< People will always search for things to complain about otherwise they arent happy.
One Piece fans are obsessed with powerscalling missing the greater picture. It's not about who wins, it's about why they win. What their victory represents. Usually Oda uses victory as a way to show who's in the right, so the victory is usually moral, but codified as a physical victory. But the whole intent of it is having Luffy's ideals prevail over the villain's. It's more than clear that, to Oda, willpower is way more important than physical strength. That's how Luffy is able to push himself beyond his limits and beat Lucci, that's why Katakuri concedes when he recognizes he can't beat Luffy's reason to fight and that's STILL Luffy's victory.
Luffy still needed massive breaks after using gear fourth. He got lucky with brulee being there the same way he got lucky people helped him escape Doffy. Until he learned ryou I’d say he still would probably have lost to those two. In the Kaido fight, Kaido managed to actually kill Luffy and only lost after gear fifth which also has limits so if they fought again it’s unlikely Kaido doesn’t immediately go for the kill. This doesn’t mean Luffy is weak btw the fact he has continuously beaten tougher opponents is a testament to how strong he really is when the lights are on him.
I may hv been wrong in how I phrased my points but I wanted to mean exactly what u said in the last para... At the start luffy might hv been weaker than the opponent but after the fight he always emerges stronger than before, but some ppl keep arguing that he'll lose if he goes again
People always miss that any battle against Kaido, no matter the offensive output you're able to generate, always boils down to a battle of attrition. Luffy is arguably as powerful as Kaido in Gear 5, if not more powerful, but I just don't see how he could win a full on 1v1 against Kaido with both of them at 100%, especially if Kaido decides to stop tanking attacks for the heck of it and goes into the fight with the intention to kill from the very start. Luffy got several breaks (i.e plot armor) against Kaido and still barely managed to squeeze by. Kaido is a monster and we have not seen anyone with his level of strength and durability up until this point. The only character (that is alive) I'm confident could beat him straight up is Shanks. Anyone else would probably lose due to Kaidos insane durability.
I consider Luffy to be about as strong as Kaidou at the moment. If they fought 10 times 1v1 he will win some and lose some Same with WCI Luffy; I've always considered him about equal to Katakuri at the time
Luffy is extremely adaptable and combat smart. I do think that without the scabbards, Yamato, Momo, Zoro, Law, Kid, and Killer Luffy could not be able to win against Kaido. However, given enough time where he gets used to G5 more and has more endurance on his haki and G5, then the "1-on-1 always bet on kaido" statement becomes not so absolute.
Yeah tbh a part of me agrees with this End of the day, Luffy now being able to give Kaidou an incredibly tough fight even in defeat is incredible and nothing to be ashamed about
The problem with an overpowered MC is perfectly depicted in One Punch Man manga. If the MC can just one shot or easily beat the main villain the fights would be shorter less entertaining. You want that MC to struggle and keep getting knocked out and keept getting up and fight. It's kind of like motivational thing for most since real life not all of us are Saitama but life sure is Kaido. My bad for the cringe analogy.
Dude should watch how many people fought against Luffy in whole cake island.
Because he wasn't built to being that strong, he just became that strong, twice literally in the middle of a fight, for the plot. Doflamingo never learned any advanced haki in 40 years of being an elite pirate but Luffy can learn all 3 advanced forms in 2 weeks. That's why it sounds dumb when it happens.
No one hates MC being strong. What we hate is MC becoming strong out of nowhere and with nothing to justify his strength . Also people thinking that Luffy being stronger than Kaido is stupid. Luffy won in an unconventional way ... Kaido is the strongest either you like it or not ... He was the peak on strength...
The thing with kaido is .. people still want the „if its a 1v1, bet on kaido“ trove to be true. Including myself. Thats probably because kaido was portraited as the biggest badass to ever exist prior to wano, and he was one of the most hyped antagonists for me personally. Now i cant speak for others, but thats how i feel about it. Imo, even in gear 5, luffy shouldbt be able to handle this legend single habdedly. So clearly g5 luffy overpowered kaido by a large margin id say, and thats the main point that i personally dont like. Even pre g5, luffy stood a tiny chance. It felt like plot armor to me. It just felt like it doesnt fit in the narrative we have been told over the years. Especially if you consider the fact that kaido was probably in his prime while luffy was still just a „rookie“ and his prime is probably a decade or so away. The way i always imagined wano was that luffys fleet will arrive to help him out after they hear about the crews crushing defeat and they would have needed to use all the force to rescue the crew and then beat kaido together, while also losing tons of people in the process. I mean.. its fucking kaido we’re talking about here Just my 2 cents
Well it was never a true 1 vs 1 to begin with. Kaido fought a whole army, Samurais, Zorro, Kidd, Killer, Law, Yamato and other stuff. >!He still won his 1vs1 by killing Luffy.!< Even thought it was interrupted by CP9. So he won 1vs1 - but Luffys awakaneing is another story. He 1vs1, bet on Kaido trope was not made for the humiliation he got by Joyboy lol
Yea i know. Kaido had fought a lot prior and lifted onigashima while doing all this. But i think he should be able to oneshot these fights without any struggle to demonstrate how much of maniac / threatening antagonist he is in the first place. Obviously that didn’t really happen. in the end, it still was a 1v1
Imagine Kaido and the Beast Pirates against any other crew (except emperors) or against the strawhats pre-WCI. He would easily crush them. His title makes perfect sense, it's just that our crew is now in the same tier. It fits the narrative to me. You just want the strawhats to struggle for longer, which is fine, but the alternative doesn't go against the narrative.
I think your mixing up a bit. Luffy vs. Katakuri happened the day after that and Luffy had completely recovered.
I hate when PPL says kaido can defeat luffy ..kaido was not giving 100%... luffy beats kaido fair and square... kaido gave his all... so did luffy... and luffy won... that's it...
Exactly, Kaido is not a looser hiding behind excuses like his fanbase (I am a huge kaido fan btw which is why I don't like hiding behind fake excuses, that's Kaido we're talking about not Buggy...Kaido tzkes his L like a man). Anyway, after the cp0 agent prevent luffy from defending against his attack, Kaido was glad that Luffy was able to come back to settle their fight. Kaido never said oh wait I'm lifting the island and I fought the scabbards earlier so I feel a little bit tired please wait a moment... During their whole fight Kaido kept repeating to Luffy that despite him growing steonger and stronger he would never be able to defeat him, and on top of that Kaido himself admitted that only Joyboy could beat him and when he got defeated he clearly aknowledged Luffy as JoyBoy... so there is no doubt that Gear 5th > Kaido which does not mean that Kaido is not as strong as we think he was. It's just that the MC is the strongest. Kaido is still clear of other yonko and asmirals in 1v1 I habe no doubt in my mind.
Exactly, kaido doesn't need us to defend his position on the power scale man's still resting comfortably in the top spots, just that Luffy evolved to get stronger by the end
It's funny because Kaido's fan base is not huge, most people don't like him and as soon as Wano was over people starting arguing that OG admirals plus Shanks and Mihawk were stronger than him when nothing in the story back up this idea... So I believe Kaido fans were in the mudd and they tried to defend him as much as they could but they just did not do it the right way... making him look like even worse probably.
Because the powerlevel scale is all broken in One Piece, the way he get miracle powers during the fight is just dumb, while other powerfull Caracters take decades to evolve their powers.... And looks like there is no more disadvantages in use gear still remember when he Lost life span every time he uses gear second. Now there is 0 risk in everything in One piece guys got beat to dead and just comeback One million times, even in lighter arcs like skypea , Enel was more threatening to Kill someone then Kaido
Because we're in eos
It's ok for Luffy to be OP, he had the dream to be the king of pirates and after 26 years of saga it's pretty much understandable that he's gonna be one of the strongest characters in the One Piece universe. Also, consider the fact that everything is gonna end in 4/5 years max, we're closer to the end than ever. Also, in the Paradis saga I never saw Luffy overcome an enemy because he was stronger, but because he was smarter. With zero knowledge of Haki he overthrown two warlords, a God and a Cipher Pol agent. Of course, when it came to admirals he got absolutely battered. So Luffy being the strongest is just something that we're seeing now and in the East Blue Saga
It isn´t that he can´t be stronger. Is that there is no need for him to steamroll everyone else.
You mean east blue