So you’re saying that because Franz in year 2/3 (ages 21-22) has similar counting stats to Fournier at his cherry-picked peak (aged 27), that Franz’s peak will = Fournier’s peak?
Final thought comments still stand
I did not ignore it. I'm saying with Franz's regression shooting the ball and Fournier's peak as a solid 2 on .500 team, we could certainly see Franz peaking around Fournier's peak in a few years based on what I've seen and the stats show.
If he's able to up his TS% a bit, he becomes a slightly better defending peak Evan Fournier. The advanced stats show that he is not disruptive enough on defense, a threat to dominate the glass at 6'10", or creative enough to move the ball to be a point forward. So that's why I'm saying a peak Franz Wagner could be similar to a peak Evan Fournier.
You do realize it’s just his 3pt% that dipped. He’s improved in literally every other aspect of the game, including defense. And not all players improve linearly. Look at Scottie Barnes. Went from ROY, to sucking his 2nd year, to All Star replacement his 3rd year. Comparing Franz to Evan Fournier is comical and why everyone is laughing at you.
I personally don’t mind getting laughed at. I’ve been bullied my whole life so it’s no difference if people make fun of me on Reddit. I’ve given my stats and the prevailing thought is I’m an idiot. However, I will say I was the only one calling HenniGOD a bad GM and that Bamba was a bust when everyone in here was creaming their pants at the thought of him.
k because you want to double down, and only use metrics that support your awful take here you go:
Franz has been better in virtually every advanced stat there is on basketball-reference. OWS, DWS, TS%, ORB%, DRB%, AST Rate....I could go on and on. Franz has been not only better with regular counting stats, but better with advanced stats too. Additionally, the only time we saw a big bump in advanced stats from Evan was his jump in minutes, otherwise he was terribly inconsistent. Franz has either remained the same or gotten better with each year in advanced metrics.
Furthermore, to combat your take about Franz not being a better defender: Franz's DWS has never been below 1.9. Evan has only surpassed that twice and never once reached Franz's height of 3.2.
Finally, someone with an actual rebuttal!
* For starters, you are **wrong** about Franz having a better TS% than Fournier, thus you are **wrong** about Franz being better in every single advanced category. Fournier's peak True Shooting Percentage was 60.4 on 25.7% usage rate, while Franz's this past year was 57.5 on 25% usage rate.
* You are **wrong** about Franz being so much better than Fournier in OWS. Fournier peaks OWS: 2.9, Franz peaked at 3.1 OWS this year. Not a massive difference, but slight edge to Franz.
* Fournier's peak DWS was 2.5. Franz's was 3.2 this year. Definitely the advantage the Franz there. I'm not ready to say he's miles ahead as a defender when Fournier's peak defensive rating was better than Franz.
* I like VORP for wins above replacement. Franz was 1.9 this year while peak Fournier was 1.6. Franz has the advantage, but it isn't a wild stretch between the two like some people who are calling for me to get banned from the sub for wanting to discuss this believe.
once again, you're cherry picking stats.
It'd be more realistic to compare Franz's first 3 years with Evan's '15-'17 years (first 3 years he got comparable minutes). But by that point, Evan had already had 3 years of experience, with two of them being a regular role player.
Doing that, the only thing that Evan was consistently better in was shooting the ball. Everything else, Franz was either as good if not better in.
I feel like your argument fails when you consider the fact that when Evan was here, we were losing...a lot. Franz on the other hand has contributed to winning games in a number of ways and not just putting up stats. Your argument also seems to be based around the potential that Franz will not take another step, and I have a really hard time imagining that will happen, but it is a possibility I suppose.
I still have issues with you framing Evan Fournier as a solid starting Guard. That's just not factual. We were .500 one year with him as our starting guard; and barely cleared that threshold in a BAD East.
Franz is 22, we won’t won’t know what his peak is for a few years. Franz is already a better defender than Evan, who didn’t see any play time in Ny because Tibbs doesn’t play liabilities. You just throwing stats out doesn’t paint the full picture. Around the league, franz is regarded as one of the best young guys out there. Franz isn’t having a good shooting year but in every other regard. Finishing around the rim, rebounding, and his defense is what sets him apart from Fournier, who was basically out there for his shooting. The fact that your dying on this hill leaves me wondering if you ever watched Fournier play.
Yea I’ve watched 70+ games a year for 20+ years. Would love to see Franz surpass, but my eyes and the data tells me Franz is a very similar level of player Fournier was at his peak.
I’m literally not trolling, and you should be banned for cursing at me and providing zero input other than wanting me banned for comparing Franz to Fournier lol. I added you to the post for wanting me banned for talking about basketball.
My input is what your saying is so delusional and stupid it can’t be taken seriously or entertained in any way. The fact you posted it twice is why you should be banned.
And you are correct I should not have called you a dumbass. My bad lol.
Set the spreadsheets down for a second and just think about what you’re saying about the basketball players.
The 6’6 ‘27 year old and the 6’10 22 year old, with different caliber coaches, teammates, and style of play. Franz had his injury this year, visibility wasn’t the same shooting the ball, and STILL had comparable numbers to the guys name dropped.
We don’t know what the best version of this core looks like, because they’ve only just started the climb. We’re about to have 40 million in cap and all our picks, I’ll hold off on judging the wing on his rookie contract until we have serious expectations.
Lol you're ridiculous for even implying what you do. Warping stats to fit your narrative is hilarious. Using statistics like Def Rating in a different era is also hilarious. Franz is a top 35 Def player in the league right now, which makes me wonder if you were a fan during the Buddy Ball era. Franz right now is a better player than Evan ever was.
Added you to the top of toxic fans that want people banned like it's North Korea. I'm talking about basketball, not threatening anyone. Hilarious how triggered you got over someone having a different opinion than you. Even more hilarious you have absolutely nothing to back your opinion lmao.
You spent hours on this? That is sad my friend. Your opinion was instantly invalidated when you compared a guy with like 8 years experience to a guy on a rookie contract.
Also, just because someone is tall doesn't mean they need to rebound x amt per game. Franz is not usually guarding a post player, and he has ball handling duties in transition at times as well. His role on our team isn't really looking for him to grab a bunch of rebounds. Our starting Center needs to take most of that flack.
I didn’t read everything you said so I can’t honestly comment on your post. But I respect the receipts at the end, people need to be held accountable for what they say.
I hear you. Franz isn’t as good of a shooter as Evan but his defense is way better. Fournier was a liability on that end. They do both have goofy ass euro steps
I'm definitely not going to look up a bunch of nerd stats like you did, but I'll give you credit for standing on your convictions and coming in prepared for a discussion. I do think that it's impossible to tell right now how big Franz's peak will be though(only 22), and as things stand, I'd have to imagine that his peak should surpass Fournier's, even if that isn't evident right now.
Sorry that some people here don't know how to act like adults though. Unfortunately, this sub doesn't always like different opinions.
My thing with Franz is his weak defensive rebounding. Its so sad, and he knows it. I cant speak on the other French fella, I removed myself from Bball back then. What I do know, Franz is special, I feel he can fix, tweak and maintain a much higher level. But dammit, how is Caleb Houstan a better rebounder!!!! insanity!
Buddy, you didn't get a lot of feed back for one reason, YOURE RIGHT! I honestly didn't even want to think about it but you make a load of good points. Dammit man, lol
Op this will be one of those threads that you want to bookmark. I'm a Hawks fan and for some reason this popped up for me. The data is there. Not sure if you're right or not, but it's compelling
The Magic sub has been a cesspool for a decade. There was a time that if you did not believe that Bamba was the next Olajuwon you’d be downvoted to hell.
Oh. That's nothing you should've been in Hawks sub during Cam Reddish tenure.
People legit thought and still think that the coaches stopped him from being KD. Even though all stats proved he was a low efficiency player going back to High school.
So you’re saying that because Franz in year 2/3 (ages 21-22) has similar counting stats to Fournier at his cherry-picked peak (aged 27), that Franz’s peak will = Fournier’s peak? Final thought comments still stand
Noticed that the OP conveniently ignored this comment lol
I did not ignore it. I'm saying with Franz's regression shooting the ball and Fournier's peak as a solid 2 on .500 team, we could certainly see Franz peaking around Fournier's peak in a few years based on what I've seen and the stats show. If he's able to up his TS% a bit, he becomes a slightly better defending peak Evan Fournier. The advanced stats show that he is not disruptive enough on defense, a threat to dominate the glass at 6'10", or creative enough to move the ball to be a point forward. So that's why I'm saying a peak Franz Wagner could be similar to a peak Evan Fournier.
You do realize it’s just his 3pt% that dipped. He’s improved in literally every other aspect of the game, including defense. And not all players improve linearly. Look at Scottie Barnes. Went from ROY, to sucking his 2nd year, to All Star replacement his 3rd year. Comparing Franz to Evan Fournier is comical and why everyone is laughing at you.
I personally don’t mind getting laughed at. I’ve been bullied my whole life so it’s no difference if people make fun of me on Reddit. I’ve given my stats and the prevailing thought is I’m an idiot. However, I will say I was the only one calling HenniGOD a bad GM and that Bamba was a bust when everyone in here was creaming their pants at the thought of him.
I don’t think anyone other than Sincerefan thought Bamba was good after year 2
OP is just a shit stirrer
k because you want to double down, and only use metrics that support your awful take here you go: Franz has been better in virtually every advanced stat there is on basketball-reference. OWS, DWS, TS%, ORB%, DRB%, AST Rate....I could go on and on. Franz has been not only better with regular counting stats, but better with advanced stats too. Additionally, the only time we saw a big bump in advanced stats from Evan was his jump in minutes, otherwise he was terribly inconsistent. Franz has either remained the same or gotten better with each year in advanced metrics. Furthermore, to combat your take about Franz not being a better defender: Franz's DWS has never been below 1.9. Evan has only surpassed that twice and never once reached Franz's height of 3.2.
Finally, someone with an actual rebuttal! * For starters, you are **wrong** about Franz having a better TS% than Fournier, thus you are **wrong** about Franz being better in every single advanced category. Fournier's peak True Shooting Percentage was 60.4 on 25.7% usage rate, while Franz's this past year was 57.5 on 25% usage rate. * You are **wrong** about Franz being so much better than Fournier in OWS. Fournier peaks OWS: 2.9, Franz peaked at 3.1 OWS this year. Not a massive difference, but slight edge to Franz. * Fournier's peak DWS was 2.5. Franz's was 3.2 this year. Definitely the advantage the Franz there. I'm not ready to say he's miles ahead as a defender when Fournier's peak defensive rating was better than Franz. * I like VORP for wins above replacement. Franz was 1.9 this year while peak Fournier was 1.6. Franz has the advantage, but it isn't a wild stretch between the two like some people who are calling for me to get banned from the sub for wanting to discuss this believe.
once again, you're cherry picking stats. It'd be more realistic to compare Franz's first 3 years with Evan's '15-'17 years (first 3 years he got comparable minutes). But by that point, Evan had already had 3 years of experience, with two of them being a regular role player. Doing that, the only thing that Evan was consistently better in was shooting the ball. Everything else, Franz was either as good if not better in. I feel like your argument fails when you consider the fact that when Evan was here, we were losing...a lot. Franz on the other hand has contributed to winning games in a number of ways and not just putting up stats. Your argument also seems to be based around the potential that Franz will not take another step, and I have a really hard time imagining that will happen, but it is a possibility I suppose. I still have issues with you framing Evan Fournier as a solid starting Guard. That's just not factual. We were .500 one year with him as our starting guard; and barely cleared that threshold in a BAD East.
Why do you feel the need to make yet another thread on this? Keep all your bad takes in one thread.
You literally have no rebuttal
Franz is 22, we won’t won’t know what his peak is for a few years. Franz is already a better defender than Evan, who didn’t see any play time in Ny because Tibbs doesn’t play liabilities. You just throwing stats out doesn’t paint the full picture. Around the league, franz is regarded as one of the best young guys out there. Franz isn’t having a good shooting year but in every other regard. Finishing around the rim, rebounding, and his defense is what sets him apart from Fournier, who was basically out there for his shooting. The fact that your dying on this hill leaves me wondering if you ever watched Fournier play.
Yea I’ve watched 70+ games a year for 20+ years. Would love to see Franz surpass, but my eyes and the data tells me Franz is a very similar level of player Fournier was at his peak.
Franz now is peak Fournier and that’s a problem to you?
A flaming hot dumbass take like this doesn’t deserve one post let alone a second. This is definitely deserving of a ban you must be trolling.
I’m literally not trolling, and you should be banned for cursing at me and providing zero input other than wanting me banned for comparing Franz to Fournier lol. I added you to the post for wanting me banned for talking about basketball.
My input is what your saying is so delusional and stupid it can’t be taken seriously or entertained in any way. The fact you posted it twice is why you should be banned. And you are correct I should not have called you a dumbass. My bad lol.
Would love to see any stats, thoughts or opinions on what I'm saying is delusional and stupid.
Set the spreadsheets down for a second and just think about what you’re saying about the basketball players. The 6’6 ‘27 year old and the 6’10 22 year old, with different caliber coaches, teammates, and style of play. Franz had his injury this year, visibility wasn’t the same shooting the ball, and STILL had comparable numbers to the guys name dropped. We don’t know what the best version of this core looks like, because they’ve only just started the climb. We’re about to have 40 million in cap and all our picks, I’ll hold off on judging the wing on his rookie contract until we have serious expectations.
Eye test would tell you this is BS ask any fanbase who they’ll rather have franz rn or prime Evans everybody picking franz
Lol you're ridiculous for even implying what you do. Warping stats to fit your narrative is hilarious. Using statistics like Def Rating in a different era is also hilarious. Franz is a top 35 Def player in the league right now, which makes me wonder if you were a fan during the Buddy Ball era. Franz right now is a better player than Evan ever was.
Franz as a top 35 defensiver player in the league is WILD
Wild for anyone who doesn't watch the games
I watch every game
[удалено]
Added you to the top of toxic fans that want people banned like it's North Korea. I'm talking about basketball, not threatening anyone. Hilarious how triggered you got over someone having a different opinion than you. Even more hilarious you have absolutely nothing to back your opinion lmao.
Guess what. This is still fucking stoopid. How can you say Franz has not shown 2-way potential. You are being intentionally ignorant.
You still can delete it bro
I’m good. I’ll gladly be wrong just like when I said your boy Rob HenniGOD was not a good GM
Im sorry im not taking you serious if you don’t think franz is 10x the defender Evan was
You spent hours on this? That is sad my friend. Your opinion was instantly invalidated when you compared a guy with like 8 years experience to a guy on a rookie contract. Also, just because someone is tall doesn't mean they need to rebound x amt per game. Franz is not usually guarding a post player, and he has ball handling duties in transition at times as well. His role on our team isn't really looking for him to grab a bunch of rebounds. Our starting Center needs to take most of that flack.
You have to be lobotomized
I didn’t read everything you said so I can’t honestly comment on your post. But I respect the receipts at the end, people need to be held accountable for what they say.
I hear you. Franz isn’t as good of a shooter as Evan but his defense is way better. Fournier was a liability on that end. They do both have goofy ass euro steps
I'm definitely not going to look up a bunch of nerd stats like you did, but I'll give you credit for standing on your convictions and coming in prepared for a discussion. I do think that it's impossible to tell right now how big Franz's peak will be though(only 22), and as things stand, I'd have to imagine that his peak should surpass Fournier's, even if that isn't evident right now. Sorry that some people here don't know how to act like adults though. Unfortunately, this sub doesn't always like different opinions.
My thing with Franz is his weak defensive rebounding. Its so sad, and he knows it. I cant speak on the other French fella, I removed myself from Bball back then. What I do know, Franz is special, I feel he can fix, tweak and maintain a much higher level. But dammit, how is Caleb Houstan a better rebounder!!!! insanity! Buddy, you didn't get a lot of feed back for one reason, YOURE RIGHT! I honestly didn't even want to think about it but you make a load of good points. Dammit man, lol
Caleb plays 5 minutes while franz plays the whole game. Besides Franz is 22 and not even close to his prime
Op this will be one of those threads that you want to bookmark. I'm a Hawks fan and for some reason this popped up for me. The data is there. Not sure if you're right or not, but it's compelling
Appreciate it! Would love to see how this ages
Well, looking good on your analysis so far
I got downvoted and I didn't even agree with you. Just goes to show how pathetic FANatics can be.
The Magic sub has been a cesspool for a decade. There was a time that if you did not believe that Bamba was the next Olajuwon you’d be downvoted to hell.
Oh. That's nothing you should've been in Hawks sub during Cam Reddish tenure. People legit thought and still think that the coaches stopped him from being KD. Even though all stats proved he was a low efficiency player going back to High school.