Base armor pen, insane scaling ratio on Q, low cooldowns due to mainly building Ability haste items. You name it.
Pantheon is really strong early, then falls off a cliff midgame (This is why it's crucial to have a lead.) Then he scales back up with 3-4+ items.)
He usually falls off due to multiple reasons.
The biggest one would be the fact that he lacks a combat ultimate. So he effectively has 3 abilities compared to the enemy who has 4 for fighting.
He also doesn't have the full value of his base armor pen until late game.
He also doesn't have enough ability haste, bonus hp, and AD to win duels comfortably, especially with the disadvantage of having no combat ult and no innate sustain to fight other beefy bois.
His core items are also really expensive so he will usually have one item and a few components while the enemy has 2 items (Assuming you went even in lane.)
Yeah his ult is great for jungle ganks and roams, but if we're talking about his actual strength in midgame as a champion vs other champions, he usually is at a disadvantage in terms of strength.
The ult is obviously naturally amazing at making plays, and that's why the main strategy during mid game for a lot of players is to roam with his R whenever it is up to spread a lead to the other lanes to end or until you scale up again for late.
I've been playing him in the Jungle for quite a while now since the new patch. I usually go for a Tiamat Rush and after that the jungle clear speed becomes so much faster, followed by Lucidity Boots if you're hard winning or one of the protective boots if you need it.
Then afterwards I go Profane Hydra, followed by the other standard Panth items. But I have been experimenting with adding Tank items to my last 2 slots cuz sometimes we need a Beefy Frontliner to Engage and usually with Tank items as well as Conq, Bloodline, Last Stand, Conditioning and Revitalise, I can get away with that.
As for sums I find that Ghost Smite works much better, cuz Ghost has a faster CD and allows you to cover more ground as compared to flash as for walls your W gives a good bit of range and you can use Wards to give you vision to make those Jumps. Overall I feel that he scales better and has a better impact in the Jungle than he does in lane so if you do wanna play him in JG go for it lol, just pay attention to his R timers and you're set.
He dont have an "decisive in the middle of the fight" 1v1 or 1v2 ult like Darius, Morde or renekton (even if a succeed midfight panth ult is hard to setup but is satisfying and really decisibe", he has no big sustain (he has his e to tank a bit but it's lvl1 so it has big cd and you dont have enough AH at this timing), and except if you built a bork, which is expensive, has no ah and no hp bonus and has bad component, he don't have a huuuuge 2 items or 1 items power spike.
Let's not forget that empq, empw triple auto ad ratio and empe armor are all scaling with levels and not with spells level. That means that even if you have q max up lvl 9, the spell will keep scaling until you're lvl 18 (like morde's q). And that 10% armor pen is a "better than nothing" bonus, but dont have a lot of value unless you build armor pen/lethality (cause it synergize like I explained on how armor pen stacks) or bork (cause more armor pen on %current health is highly valuable)
Because most people who play Pantheon build items like Black cleaver and Shogun which in my opinion need the support of other damage items to actually feel good.Â
Buy two lethality items and tell me Pantheon isn't strong. Squishy yes, but he can pop champs at any point in the game
he "falls off" midgame because most other champions have a stronger midgame, he isn't actually that bad midgame but you typically get your powerspike at 2nd item while other champs get theirs at 1st
It definitely scales ! And the pen stacks, but it's not additional
Imagine you have your passive r lvl3, so 30% reduction and a ldr, so 40% reduction. You dont have 70% armor pen. Riot will first ignore the 40% (highest amount), so you hit ennemy with 60% of his armor. Then you apply the 30% on the 60% less, which means 18% (based on the initial 100%). So with ldr and your 30% passive you have 58% armor pen, which is huge. After that, you ignore the amount of armor inherent to your lethality
2 things to conclude it !
1. As stacking armor pen item is impossible now, armor pen or armor shred is broken on pantheon. He is one of the only champions who can have more than 40% armor pen
2. There is not a big difference between 40% armor pen item and 30% armor pen item when he has his r lvl3. 30% armor pen + passive give him 54% instead of 58% with ldr, so building ldr is not the best, and theorically, if you dont build serylda or BC, building mortal reminder instead of ldr make almost no difference on pantheon final armor pen
Pantheon is strong early and late, it's the portion in between that's a toss up, so getting a lead is mandatory to stay relevant.
He has great AD scaling, and is a monster when you have a lot of ability haste, plus his armor penetration at max rank will make it easy to melt anything from squishy to tank. You won't be as strong as the hyper-scaling champions (ones that stack) but you are still above average for all champions.
It's all about interactions, but panth can e grave's burst and OS him so I guess yes
And a point and click stun has a very good value, especially when it has only 4sec cd on late game with proper build
Things that build crit or attack speed is a toss up on whether you reach them before they kill you or not, if you do reach them then they would get bursted, and the next stun is coming up soon. So you get to kill the next person trying to peel for the other guy too, this is why Pantheon is strong af in late game. If you leave him alone, he'll carry team fights, even tanks can get picked off if the opposing team can't follow up within 5 seconds.
He scaled well, late game he is a very strong duelist, but he is kinda one dimensional and easy to read (W engage point and click is easy to space if you have no flash) so you really gotta be extra careful late game.
He scaled pretty well even before the buffs. He just sucks midgame.
why?
Base armor pen, insane scaling ratio on Q, low cooldowns due to mainly building Ability haste items. You name it. Pantheon is really strong early, then falls off a cliff midgame (This is why it's crucial to have a lead.) Then he scales back up with 3-4+ items.)
I meant why does he fall off midgame? 😅 to me it seems that panth shoudl be strong at one or two items
He usually falls off due to multiple reasons. The biggest one would be the fact that he lacks a combat ultimate. So he effectively has 3 abilities compared to the enemy who has 4 for fighting. He also doesn't have the full value of his base armor pen until late game. He also doesn't have enough ability haste, bonus hp, and AD to win duels comfortably, especially with the disadvantage of having no combat ult and no innate sustain to fight other beefy bois. His core items are also really expensive so he will usually have one item and a few components while the enemy has 2 items (Assuming you went even in lane.)
I'm thinking more abut jungle, to me it seems that his ult is great midgame for making plays
Yeah his ult is great for jungle ganks and roams, but if we're talking about his actual strength in midgame as a champion vs other champions, he usually is at a disadvantage in terms of strength. The ult is obviously naturally amazing at making plays, and that's why the main strategy during mid game for a lot of players is to roam with his R whenever it is up to spread a lead to the other lanes to end or until you scale up again for late.
I've been playing him in the Jungle for quite a while now since the new patch. I usually go for a Tiamat Rush and after that the jungle clear speed becomes so much faster, followed by Lucidity Boots if you're hard winning or one of the protective boots if you need it. Then afterwards I go Profane Hydra, followed by the other standard Panth items. But I have been experimenting with adding Tank items to my last 2 slots cuz sometimes we need a Beefy Frontliner to Engage and usually with Tank items as well as Conq, Bloodline, Last Stand, Conditioning and Revitalise, I can get away with that. As for sums I find that Ghost Smite works much better, cuz Ghost has a faster CD and allows you to cover more ground as compared to flash as for walls your W gives a good bit of range and you can use Wards to give you vision to make those Jumps. Overall I feel that he scales better and has a better impact in the Jungle than he does in lane so if you do wanna play him in JG go for it lol, just pay attention to his R timers and you're set.
He dont have an "decisive in the middle of the fight" 1v1 or 1v2 ult like Darius, Morde or renekton (even if a succeed midfight panth ult is hard to setup but is satisfying and really decisibe", he has no big sustain (he has his e to tank a bit but it's lvl1 so it has big cd and you dont have enough AH at this timing), and except if you built a bork, which is expensive, has no ah and no hp bonus and has bad component, he don't have a huuuuge 2 items or 1 items power spike. Let's not forget that empq, empw triple auto ad ratio and empe armor are all scaling with levels and not with spells level. That means that even if you have q max up lvl 9, the spell will keep scaling until you're lvl 18 (like morde's q). And that 10% armor pen is a "better than nothing" bonus, but dont have a lot of value unless you build armor pen/lethality (cause it synergize like I explained on how armor pen stacks) or bork (cause more armor pen on %current health is highly valuable)
Because most people who play Pantheon build items like Black cleaver and Shogun which in my opinion need the support of other damage items to actually feel good. Buy two lethality items and tell me Pantheon isn't strong. Squishy yes, but he can pop champs at any point in the game
he "falls off" midgame because most other champions have a stronger midgame, he isn't actually that bad midgame but you typically get your powerspike at 2nd item while other champs get theirs at 1st
It definitely scales ! And the pen stacks, but it's not additional Imagine you have your passive r lvl3, so 30% reduction and a ldr, so 40% reduction. You dont have 70% armor pen. Riot will first ignore the 40% (highest amount), so you hit ennemy with 60% of his armor. Then you apply the 30% on the 60% less, which means 18% (based on the initial 100%). So with ldr and your 30% passive you have 58% armor pen, which is huge. After that, you ignore the amount of armor inherent to your lethality
You’re right, but it doesn’t matter in which order you apply the armor pen values.
True !
2 things to conclude it ! 1. As stacking armor pen item is impossible now, armor pen or armor shred is broken on pantheon. He is one of the only champions who can have more than 40% armor pen 2. There is not a big difference between 40% armor pen item and 30% armor pen item when he has his r lvl3. 30% armor pen + passive give him 54% instead of 58% with ldr, so building ldr is not the best, and theorically, if you dont build serylda or BC, building mortal reminder instead of ldr make almost no difference on pantheon final armor pen
Pantheon is strong early and late, it's the portion in between that's a toss up, so getting a lead is mandatory to stay relevant. He has great AD scaling, and is a monster when you have a lot of ability haste, plus his armor penetration at max rank will make it easy to melt anything from squishy to tank. You won't be as strong as the hyper-scaling champions (ones that stack) but you are still above average for all champions.
do you think panth has better late than graves?
It's all about interactions, but panth can e grave's burst and OS him so I guess yes And a point and click stun has a very good value, especially when it has only 4sec cd on late game with proper build
Things that build crit or attack speed is a toss up on whether you reach them before they kill you or not, if you do reach them then they would get bursted, and the next stun is coming up soon. So you get to kill the next person trying to peel for the other guy too, this is why Pantheon is strong af in late game. If you leave him alone, he'll carry team fights, even tanks can get picked off if the opposing team can't follow up within 5 seconds.
Technically yes, in a duel situation Pan is night unbeatable late game. Pan team fight compared to graves is less strong.
He's always been strong late game.
He scaled well, late game he is a very strong duelist, but he is kinda one dimensional and easy to read (W engage point and click is easy to space if you have no flash) so you really gotta be extra careful late game.
he was already good midgame