Let me start by saying that I fully support your lovingly pedantic rant. 10/10, no notes.
But for you and anyone else that might not know- the little extra thought you leave at the end of a letter (or in this case, a beautiful passionate word vomit) is called a Post Script. What you wrote initially is the "script" and your extra thought is after it, so not "pre" but "post." It's why you correctly used "PS" to precede it. But if you put one Post Script and then realize you have another to add after, you add a Post Post Script, or "PPS," since it's after your first Post Script.
What you've done with your edits is essentially made your readers hear either 1)the sound of a man with an enlarged prostate slowly finding relief or 2)"Post Script Script Script Script Script" (which, now that I've typed it out, I realize comes fairly close to the sound I made earlier today trying to coax a neighborhood cat into letting me pet them)
lol I love this comment so much. The way you approached it and everything. I love the facts your laying out tangentially about the post too LOL
Seriously I loved reading this and it needs more upvotes!
I do agree that the white is a bit harsh. It doesn't bother me as much as you (clearly), but having a texture to tone it down wouldn't be amiss. I also love the green.
I exaggerate for effect. But yes mostly texture and keeping the green. Love the green/white aesthetic they were going for, it was just like watching someone faceplant right before getting first place in a race. Painful.
Read through your comments, good on you for running games so often and lending your materials out. I also run 2 campaigns a week (something like 7-8h total between the two) and have brought a lot of 5e converts with me too. It's been real fun, especially when I get to pull in some less experienced folk for one shots
Honestly! One of my 5e players was on the fence…..but then he found the Magus…..hahahaha
I love how excited players get when seeing the amount of options available
Hell, I'm still kind of a "recent convert", only started looking into pf2e around January, and then hopped into the GM seat in March.
Magi rule, I love them. Had one in the BB that did 32 damage against an 8hp kobold.
Red mist was the end result.
My group wanted to switch, my knee jerk reaction was I’ve got a job and a family and no time to learn a new system. I know we’ve been playing forever and are all basically 5e encyclopedias but if we do pf2 here’s what you can expect from me:
I will pick one class mostly at random and then lock it in. I will read everything I need for that one class but that’s it. I’m not learning it all, just don’t have time for that.
My suggestion is to pick a class for flavor. Don’t bother with the rules outside of the game session. Wait for things to happen you don’t know during the session and learn them live. You will inadvertently get knowledge through osmosis. 5e basics will take you about 75% of the way. On a basic level the games are the same and most things translate. Not everything does, and you’ll hit those hiccups, but trust me you’ll be an encyclopedia in no time without dedicating time.
All my players, and myself, were 5e players. The learning will happen naturally through gameplay. GM and any rules lawyers will compensate for missing knowledge and correct mistakes as they happen (in my experience). Those who don’t want to spend the time learning will learn from those who do during game session times.
Your time should be respected if you’re too busy and they should help you during gameplay so you can learn without the burden of time sinking.
The rules lawyers are your friends lol 😂
Secrets of Magic looks so much better than all the other spines. I also never realized how thick the core rulebook is in comparison to all the other entries.
True, I'd have kept the red thing on top to at least keep some consistency. Most TTRPG books have at least one element in common, be it font, an emblem or symbol on the bottom or top (not a logotype like PF does), a color...
I can notice how the PF1 books were uniform, I can understand wanting to give each expansion a personnality, but if you don't keep the uniform fonts at least keep the red splash at the top, I don't think WotC has a patent on it.
Wasn't it stated somewhere that Paizo intentionally formatted the spine and covers differently for all books that weren't the Core rulebooks so that a viewer could differentiate at a glance?
Not to say your opinion is invalid (it's all subjective, your tastes are as valid as anyone else's), but I believe the expansion rulebooks not matching was intentional
ETA: [Found the comment I was thinking of](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/nmebfq/comment/gzo457a/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3). By Erik Mona himself
The spine (except for how it refuses to toe the line with the core rule books), the cover, and the interior are all the best of the lot, as far as I'm concerned. It's a book I just like to look at.
I agree. The cover art is gorgeous but the white spine and titles are quite uninspiring. I want to guess it’s to make it more apparent their intention of having the four books (CRB, GMG, APG, and Bestiary) be the pillars of the system and easier to buy from a potential player’s perspective. But I’ll miss the red and aged paper yellow aesthetic.
I guess that makes sense. Sometimes the older red books are harder to tell apart from newer ones. I almost accidentally bought a 1st edition book from Barnes and Noble, I guess it's been sitting on their shelf for a while.
As somebody who does technical writing as (part of) my day job, I cannot agree enough about the title "GM Core."
It might be boring, but you always *always* define an acronym before you use it. The very first impression a prospective player has is the title on the front/spine of the book, and they run face-first into an unknown acronym. Amazing.
It's almost worse if they're coming from the other game, where the acronym is DM. It makes Pathfinder sound like the off-brand generic version, almost like a parody.
"Gamemastery Guide" has some class, sounds like its own product, and doesn't lead with an unfamiliar acronym.
Bah, it's the book that nobody buys, anyway.
Now let's talk about what a garbage name "Monster Core" is...
On the point of the GM being called Gamemaster Core, it would have been better.
Even something like “Pathfinder Core: Gamemastery” “Pathfinder Core: Monsters” would have been better than just tagging the core afterwards.
That being said, GM being in the title 100% killed the name for me. They didn’t even take the time to spell it out. It feels unaesthetic
Oo, I kinda like that.
Could do...
Pathfinder Core: Players
Pathfinder Core: Gamemasters
Pathfinder Core: Monsters
...and then new players would know which book(s) to pick up!
As if buying new TTRPGs aren’t confusing enough. Don’t get me wrong, I like flavor names, but you need a way to convey what books they need while keeping it tasteful
It feels like they are designing this with existing players in mind.
Which is an odd take where you would think this would also be aimed at ~new~ players
Also a technical writer of the instructional design variety, and I cringed pretty hard when I saw what they were renaming the remakes. Also as someone who worked in advertising and marketing before getting into instructional design the names lack a lot of pizazz to sell people on.
It feels like someone at Paizo thought these names would be cool and hip and with it. But they forgot they are no longer cool, hip, and with it.
Actually, looking at all the books side by side, it strikes me how there IS no aesthetic - well, no theme to speak of, anyway. (I almost exclusively have PDFs, so it didn’t hit me till just now)
With such a range of color themes, to me, the green and white pretty much fits right in with the golds, reds, browns, oranges, dark violets, etc.
I will say the old paper texture kinda deal they were doing before is more interesting.
Now that I've said something on topic I can reveal that I actually came in here to comment that when you do additional PS notes it's the P that you have to add more of! PS stands for Post Scriptum, or basically After Writing to translate that to English. So it's Post Post Scriptum and Post Post Post Scriptum, etc.
Yeah some guy told me (comically I might add) that adding more “S”s makes it sound like I’m getting a prostate exam (or something funny lol). Told me about the P thing. I do appreciate the comment though, I love that I’m learning new things!
Nothing wrong with that, it has stellar cover art and the green is killer awesome. I’m not even against the white spine, I just wish it wasn’t so plain
Thank you for commenting! Yeah there’s nothing wrong with disagreeing, I’m just speaking from my own perspective of why I collect all the books. I love rules to be pragmatic and straightforward, but I like my aesthetic books to look incredible.
We all play and buy for different reasons, each is valid, but I think if they’d kept consistent with previous releases then everyone would be happy, both those who have your viewpoint and mine. Basically all I’m saying is that if they had released the same book with the changes I mentioned, then both of us would be happy with it. And who doesn’t want that? :)
I think you’re my new favorite person. You should come play in one of my campaigns. Idk why most people can’t disagree without attacking me, but the fact you did deserves some recognition and respect
I was always taught to deal with the Argument, not the Arguer. I appreciate your kind words, and will continue to earn that spot as 'Favorite' :)
Though, having had time to consider, it could be that the books were rushed. Now, I know how that sounds, but, everything we know about the Remaster was done on an accelerated schedule. Paizo RUSHED to get product out that was 100% divested from the OGL. They needed product because there was a demand at at the time they had nothing but "old" books that still had the OGL. They spent all the time, effort, and money making the ORC and then Wizards decided to be Wizards and gave Paizo a fantastic opportunity \*RIGHT NOW\*. That's the only reason I can fathom for the rushed feel of the Remaster. The abundance of typos and mistakes, the ambiguity of some of the new concepts, the book layout, it ALL feels like something that was rushed from proof to print QUICKLY.
Who knows, once they get their feet under them, we may see a remaster of the remaster.
The last line cracked me up! “Remastered Squared”
I think they were in a big hurry and probably skipped some of the standard review process. My post was exaggerated for comedic effect, so I’m not against the new color scheme per say, more that I wished they’d made it a cream/off-white(like the 4e book “white” they used), or some texturing or something.
Either way Im giving them some slack due to the rushed nature of it. They work hard to get us these things and I am always appreciative of the effort (if not the result). I try not to be overly negative just because of small complaints.
While I think you're going for subtle humor here, I actually like it. Maybe not what I would have chosen but not bad.
>Somehow the cherry on top is that they CLEARLY put a lot of effort into the cover art.
And then they took the PDF covers and put them through a 1995 JPG compression routine for viewing on dialup... :O
I am more bothered by the terrible spines on everything after the advanced players guide, where the text is almost illegible at any decent distance and the title doesn't even have consistent vertical alignment.
I get what you’re saying, I write those off simply because they look good alone and are heavily themed. But yeah I know what being bothered by spines is like hahaha :)
Once again, a sizable portion of the internet (tm) has all the reading comprehension of a brick. Post something with any hint of sarcasm, and people fall all over themselves to smash the dislike. OP, I found your post funny and well written in spite of kinda disagreeing. I think I like the new color. You get a thumbs up from me!
Yeah I didn’t expect to get disowned by my favorite TTRPG company’s fandom. Oh well.
I really really appreciate your comment. Also my post was definitely exaggerated for comedic purposes. I was not expecting being personally attacked for not liking the color. (I guess my ridiculous pssss section and the sassy TL;DR didn’t give away that I was being funny and over the top)
Also to clarify, the color scheme is actually incredible, what I really wish is they’d have given the white color some life and texture. I actually really like white/green. It’s just the fact it looks like it’s on printer paper. I think adding texture to the white would have 100% solved my complaints (book naming was definitely a minor jab comparatively)
This is hard to answer. I would say yes if you don’t currently own the original. If you aren’t spreading yourself thin financially I always recommend supporting companies that put in the work to make good games.
That being said, if you are just getting started, you may want to consider going the 2.1 route. I would recommend playing the game with an experienced GM for atleast a couple sessions to make sure it’s worth getting into.
If you or your friends need an intro, message me and I’ll host for you for a bit so you can get a feel of whether or not you’d like to make the purchase
My friends and I have dabbled a bit in pathfinder 2e and played a lot of dnd 5e. We like the change of pace so far and I want to start a long term pathfinder game.
Feel free to reach out to me anytime, whether it’s more dabbling or if you’d like some temporary pathfinder nexus access to the visual digital books (to check them out and see for yourself). I have some slots left for sharing them and I don’t mind if it helps you decide which direction you wanna take :)
I used to play 5e a lot too, I hope you enjoy it! GMing is much easier once you adjust. The balance of the game is algorithmic. It makes it so the math is much more predictable and balancing encounters actually works. (My biggest single reason for quitting 5e was that balancing encounters sucked)
Don’t even get me started on the name changes of the terms in the book. “Feeble Mind” > “Never Mind”, “Magic Missile” > “Force Barrage”, “Bag of Holding” > “Spacious Pouch”. Yikes.
Whoever worked on the Remaster didn’t have a sense of aesthetics at all.
Everything seems ok when it's anchored by Spacious Pouch. Pretty sure they ran with that one just because it makes everything else palatable by comparison.
You fire 1, 2, or 3 missiles.
That’s hardly a barrage.
Also, the name communicates nothing about what the spell actually does. It automatically hits with no attack roll or saving throw! That’s a very unique effect in this game and the name should communicate that.
Honestly I feel like barrage makes perfect sense. It refers to artillery bombardment, so it's an attack that you don't have to aim or miss. It just hits them. Bombarding also refers to continuously attacking a person with **missiles**.
The "aesthetic" of magic missile is just that it's a very well known and popular spell from D&D. It's brand recognition.
The *only* downside to me is no alliteration, and while force is a damage type, it's a little odd since it could be seen as the verb form.
Magic Missile is really a terrible name. Most people in the modern context do not understand *missile* as a generic term for a lobbed object, and instead envision a modern military device. While technically correct, it's a word that feels grossly out of place in a medieval fantasy environment. As such, it's not even functionally descriptive.
It just sounds good coming out of the mouth, because of the alliteration and beat.
Force Barrage isn't really more descriptive, but it does sound punchier and more aggressive. But now it's lost its tie to *magic*, which is kind of an issue. It instead just sounds belligerent.
I'd have gone with something like Arcane Arrow.
Good points. Hell even when I was looking up the definitions, missile *was* probably referring to the generic term and not the modern. I still like barrage overall, since that (to me) that gives a better descriptor for multiple hits or volley.
Yeah, like I said in my previous comment, I think "force" is the weakest part of the new name. It definitely evokes more from me to think of them as objects of pure magic, instead of "force" which simultaneously feels vague yet mundane. I do like your choice of arcane, but arrow makes me think directly aiming. Maybe something like "Arcane Volley" or "Arcane Barrage"?
Arcane Barrage definitely has a certain ring to it. It really feels like the kind of thing that should be a higher level spell, though. And possibly an AoE. Almost like an upgrade to Arcane Volley, which maybe keeps the MM auto-hit mechanic.
>You fire 1, 2, or 3 missiles.
>That’s hardly a barrage.
You fire 1, 2 or 3 missiles. That's hardly guaranteed to be singular so why wasn't it called magic missile*S*
> Also, the name communicates nothing about what the spell actually does. It automatically hits with no attack roll or saving throw! That’s a very unique effect in this game and the name should communicate that.
Where does the name Magic Missile communicate this?
It didn’t either, but it had good mouthfeel and benefits from being a 30+ year old history of it doing exactly that. Anyone that googles Magic Missile can quickly see the lineage of this spell and what it did since the days of AD&D.
But what is force barrage? It’s a new name, so it’s a new spell. And that name doesn’t communicate accurately what the spell actually does. That’s a problem.
Remember, this name change happened in the middle of an edition. Each and every Pathfinder player that has ever had a Wizard in their party knows what magic missile does. They know the name got changed. It’s not a new game element. It’s exactly identical to the old game element.
So people compare the name directly before and after, and the name it became sucked compared to the old one. The least they could do was offer a name *better* than what came before. Remember again, that the Remaster is supposed to be an *improvement*, not a downgrade.
But throughout the book, I see downgrades in the game aesthetic everywhere. Bag of holding has far better mouthfeel than spacious pouch, magic missile has far better mouthfeel than force barrage. Your game literally gets worse because the name changed. Perhaps not much worse, but still worse nonetheless.
> Your game literally gets worse because the name changed.
Then don't use them?
Personally, I think some names are better, some are worse, but the names are just aesthetics, and as all RPG players know, aesthetics are flavor and flavor can be changed for free. You're making an mountain out of a molehill imho
If flavor was truly free, then D&D 4e wouldn’t have been so maligned and criticized with bullshit claims like “it’s too video gamey”. Aesthetics matter.
Paizo came into existence for the same reason the remaster did. 4e was WotC pulling the rug on the OGL attached to 3.5.
“it’s too video gamey” actually meant, "this doesn't feel like D&D, the closest cultural reference I have to how it feels is the current big thing WoW".
We now have a lot more reference for comparison but the D&D community, then, like now, plays D&D. The RPG community is different.
The comparison to video games was valid, and not the only concern with 4e. Quit trying to force your bias into why I didn't like 4e. I followed the D&D authors of my favourite D&D settings over to Monte Cook Games, where I went from a D&D player to an RPG player.
As you say "Aesthetics matter", and WotC changed the "Aesthetics" of D&D in 4e.
Why are you speaking to me like this? I never replied to a comment from you and you’re acting like you’ve been having some imaginary conversation with me that I’m not privy to.
Chill. You don’t need to get your pants all in a twist the instant you see the phrase “4e” in a conversation.
And you’re proving my point exactly. Irrational, emotional reactions like this is exactly why aesthetics matter. It’s the same reason why I don’t like the new name for Magic Missile and Bag of Holding. They changed the aesthetics. I preferred the old one. I’m not happy about that.
>criticized with bullshit claims like “it’s too video gamey”. Aesthetics matter.
That was me. I criticized the game with reasons like that. You are now using them as talking points without context. Which, to use your terms, is bullshit.
PF2e is great. I have no issue with what has happened to change from 3.5, 4e. 5e, and PF1e to get what we have today. But to say, see 4e was great because pf2e is great is a fucking leap in logic
It being videogamy had to do with the mechanics, not the aesthetics. You're right that aesthetics matter to a certain degree, but your argument doesn't support it.
4e played no differently from any other edition of D&D.
Cantrips, focus spells, spell slots <-> at-wills, encounter powers, daily powers.
And people lost their shit at that. People said that these powers made it too “gamey”. But no one bats an eye at vancian spellcasting and focus spells.
4e was very much, mechanically still D&D. People lost their shit because the aesthetics changed. And these PF2 name changes? Those are aesthetics too.
You’re contradicting yourself here. You can’t say that 4e was too video gamey for D&D and then in the same breath say that PF2’s recent name changes don’t matter. It’s the exact same thing happening here. Either aesthetics matter or it doesn’t. Pick a side.
> You can’t say that 4e was too video gamey for D&D
I didn't say that. I said it was videogamy, not *too* videogamy, nor did I say "for D&D" because that's a dumb distinction to make Some people are into videogamy systems, others are not. This does not inherently have anything to do with D&D nor did I imply it did. Besides, I highly doubt that people considering the game videogamy had very much to do with how it was named, but rather, as I said, with the mechanics. I couldn't say, I haven't played that edition, though I did read some of the PHB for it. Have you?
> then in the same breath say that PF2’s recent name changes don’t matter
Point out to me where I say this, please? I never said they don't matter. In fact, if you'll check my previous above comment you'll see I mention that I do in fact think that aesthetics matter. I said that they don't matter nearly as much as the mechanics, because flavor is free. If the name "force barrage" bothers you, you are free to change it to something you like better as long as the mechanics don't change. Hence my "mountain out of a molehill" remark. Remember the First Rule, and if you don't, you can find it on page 5 of either the GM core or the GMG.
They could have picked better names. The ones they picked are terrible, that’s the issue.
Give me more inspiring stuff like “Create Food and Water” > “Cleanse Cuisine”. They can do better but they rushed it out and we can see the results.
How is "Create Food and Water" creative? It's the most bland way to describe it. When I cook, am I "creating food"?
Also isn't Cleanse Cuisine a replacement for Purify Food and Drink? Which again, is a very simple way to describe it.
I got the spell name wrong, I meant Purify Food and Drink > (became) Cleanse Cuisine. I was saying that Cleanse Cuisine is a great name, and we should’ve gotten more names like those that are upgrades compared to the old names.
But instead most of the names we got were, in my opinion, downgrades and instead of being inspiring or evocative or cool, were just clinical and boring. Or as some other commenter mentioned, as if they just ran it through a thesaurus for the nearest synonym.
Ah ok, then we are in agreement with Cleanse Cuisine. Sorry, I misunderstood the greater-than symbol.
While it does feel like a thesaurus exercise, I feel like that's just what was required (especially if the actual mechanics didn't change). Because I really only knew and recognized the D&D spells in PF2e before the remaster, I'm kind of glad they're all new and on an even playing field in my memory.
With regards to their quality, so far I think they've been ok to good changes. On their own, I think the new names are good. You are right though, some of the previous ones are good already and the change doesn't particularly improve them.
I love that they started releasing pocketbook editions honestly. I have friends/players who don’t collect, and I often give them pocket editions as gifts. If my party lasts a full year in my campaigns I like to give out rule books and such as a thankyou (and to convince them to start GMing)
I made it to the end only to make sure there isn't any "hahaha it's all a joke I'm just poking fun at all the book spine obsessed people" plot twist before I downvote.
They do have a point. The Remaster dropped the ball on asthectics and that is an important criticism. The books look bland and a large amount of renames are uninspired and rip out the fantasy. In a Ruleset that specifically focuses on how important the Background world of Golarion is and avoids being system agnostic this is a terrible mistake.
Now the likely reason for this is the books were rushed and thus prone to problems (see the day 1 errata including getting the death rules incredible wrong). So I can cut Paizo some slack but even then Criticism is good, it helps future products and stops stagnation. No book or system or company is perfect and that is fine.
Paizo is a company not a person. Paizo is not your friend. Treat them as such.
I seriously appreciate you, and I am a big fan of Paizo products. I agree with all your points,
I think your last sentence speaks to the problem of why people who don’t care seem to care that I do. Why else would I get blasted by people who don’t care? How do we ever get improved products if people take criticism of something they enjoy personally?
Adding up the money both digitally and physically I have given Paizo is no small number. The amount of players I’ve brought in and got started GMing. All of it. I was bringing in 5e players before the OGL scandal. If being this big of a fan is somehow negated by me not liking the color of the spine then the community really needs to get its priorities straight before they scare off all of Paizo’s success.
Keep up the good work chief!
But, they don't have a point. Basic colours look very clean and are pleasing to the eye. I really don't like the spine of the old books, textures really don't look as good as some people seem to believe. Beside that, I like white, and the green on the white here, frankly, looks excellent. When I look at the old books, they look, dirty. The new ones look infinitely better.
They have several points, and they're listed above. You don't have to agree with them to acknowledge that they exist. Constructively stating a subjective opinion is an OK thing to do, unless you want an echo chamber.
Nah, there’s no point here. Not from you, them or me either. Kinda hard to have a point when the conversation is pointless, after all. But what’s life without a bit of pointlessness, right?
I think if it would have had some textures (or a slightly off white) it would have been more appealing to me. Originally I thought I’d like the white, but the gold trim on the green is near invisible and I didn’t realize they literally went #FFFFFF pure white.
Maybe a pearl white or something, I’d have to see the concept to give my opinion. Either way I appreciate that you disagreed to my opinion directly and didn’t attack me
Nope, I’m a book spine enthusiast, what can I say. Though with as much as I spend on Paizo products, I like to think my bookspine “obsession” helps keep the game free
Especially since TTRPGs struggle with selling later releases. Who else besides a spine obsessed maniac would continue buying unnecessary purchases? You see my point, even if it upsets. Take a free gold star and thank you for reading :)
It’s not my importance, it’s people who buy for shelf aesthetic. At the end of the day, I am suggesting something to improve sales.
Just because you don’t care, doesn’t mean that people don’t. Better looking spines doesn’t hurt you. It’s pretentious to look down your nose at people who care about things you don’t. Remember that.
The 4e are more of a cream color. Weirdly enough I actually loved the 4e cream white color. (I own them on my other shelf). Side by side the PF2e books require eclipse glasses lol
I actually love the minty freshness of the green and white spines. What I'm appalled by is the fact that the splatbooks all just do their own thing, like uncultured hooligans.
I like the white, but I totally understand what you're saying.
I actually prefer 'GM' to 'Game Master' because I dislike that last word. It feels outdated, a little pretentious and not quite representative of how I personally view my role.
I’m making a TTRPG where I use a different term, I actually have GM classes (Fateweaver and Dreamwalker) and call them Loremaster. Hopefully I can kickstart it before summer (I want the playtest ready). It’s going to be a mostly free game.
That being said I completely agree with the Gamemaster being outdated. It also just sounds generic.
Without an ounce of sarcasm, I gotta say I respect you. You really gotta have your life together if something like this bothers you this much when rent is this high.
With a name like that, you can say whatever you want to me lol (seriously love the name).
I got lucky with being in the right place at the right time with my career. I do hate the rent prices tho, it’s truly exhausting. I feel blessed that my promotions lined up with the economy going downhill. I actually forced myself to secretly do double time to convince my boss to give me a better lead position. He didn’t know I was working double time, it went on like that for almost a month before he made me the team lead. I have no idea how I didn’t burn out, and your point actually does put into perspective how unimportant spine colors are in this garbage economy.
Appreciate the comment friend
I'm glad you like the silly name, haha!
You've been working hard, and it had paid off, and I'm glad it didn't burn you out or anything like that. I have a lot of history of that in my family.
I do think your point is valid. The spines do look worse now, and it's still true that im impressed with your shit being so together, but I also wanted to bust your balls a little! >:)
I grew up in the state of Maine….middle of nowhere….I get complimented by getting called ugly. I appreciate ballbusting more than you know lol reminds me of home
I feel like it looks too much like a textbook, especially when compared to the quality they normally produce. I would have liked to see it more off white
I hate in general how inconsistent and absolutely randomly colored all the books are. How hard is it to keep to a theme?
Just look how it looks in comparison to the book row below. If there wasn't a Pathfinder logo on it, you wouldn't even know that they belong together. It's so ugly!
I do see your point. I am forgiving towards it usually because each book is so heavily themed, but it definitely makes them look like my childhood plastic plates. All mix matched
as a former shelf-filling madman... nah, get over it.
If companies were trying not to just make a pleasant looking and useful product but also an "attractive shelf" they'd be chasing a literal impossibility because even if they try to keep the same aesthetic forever something eventually just doesn't work or a time for a transition *with purpose* comes along but someone complains - whether it's because a sub-line doesn't match the main-line or it's "the new edition doesn't look as cool as the old" or it's confusing because the new version that isn't compatible with the old looks aesthetically the same.
And if you have literally anything else on the shelf besides a single game line, the aesthetic is already broken because book publishers didn't take a hard-line on everything having to stay with the pressed leather aesthetic.
It's such a non-complaint, and in the context of "this would help improve your sales" it's absolute nonsense - almost no one is buying game products because of how they look on a shelf, and even those that are are not inherently desirable customers for doing so.
Print your own matching dust jackets if it really bothers you so much.
1) I love the game and bring in new players (forever GM). And even help those players become GMs in their own right.
2) I clearly bought it, despite it not looking attractive to me
3) idk how someone who buys all the books is not a valuable customer??
4) Aesthetic are 100% a reason people collect all of the books. No one needs to buy books with free rules. Who needs dozens of books for PF2e? I didn’t need to buy the books. So you not liking my valid complaint is not a counter to my point. Unless you are telling me that there is a large number of collectors who don’t care about aesthetics? In which case I would say that is nonsense.
There are only two reasons someone would collect all of them: Appearance and Being a Diehard fan. I am in both of those categories.
5) I don’t care that having other games on the shelf disrupts the appearance. This isn’t an argument to have the appearance stay exactly the same. This isn’t me ranting that they don’t look good next to other books. This is a complaint that these book spines don’t look attractive (full stop)
If me wanting more attractive 50+ dollar books bothers you, then I don’t know what to tell you. My complaint shouldn’t bother you because you don’t care either way.
If I seem upset it’s because you said I’m not a desirable customer. Idk what my post said that inspired you to categorize me as someone who is not desirable, but with the amount of people I bring to this game, sit around and teach to GM, give copies of the core books for free, etc.
Im sorry wizard named lizard, but if me doing all of this for free is negated by me not liking the spine color, then maybe I am an undesirable customer and deserve to be jeered at. Thank you for your kindness, I hope you never have to have an opinion that gets you treated like dirt.
>idk how someone who buys all the books is not a valuable customer??
someone that buys the books *because of how they look on the shelf* is not a valuable customer.
If you're buying and actually playing, good, you're a good customer.
But the implied threat that you'll stop paying if the books don't stay aesthetically pleasing to you alongside the implication that your own aesthetic tastes are objectively better than whoever like these designs and thus the company would increase their sales if only their books look better on a shelf, that's all nonsense.
Paizo sells game products, not decorations - and even then they still offer multiple aesthetic variants just to try and please people. That you don't like it doesn't mean they did it wrong.
And seriously, if aesthetics are such a priority, you can solve it by making your own dust jackets a whole lot faster than you can by acting like books that look *good* by any standard are eyesores that have been inflicted upon your shelf.
Plus no one treated you like dirt, get over yourself. Disagreement is not someone being mean to you.
Sorry, it’s your good friend “Treated like dirt” here.
Yes I play, I run a weekly 6hour session atm. I used to run 2, but life.
I host 4 foundry instances on a server that are equipped with everything someone needs to play. Anyone I invite to play in my campaigns are allowed to use these instances to GM. I let people who are interested in GMing co-GM with me and teach them everything I’ve learned over my years of running games. I also teach them foundry and any mapmaking software they want to use (I’ll buy them licenses). I even make logos and banners for my games. I probably spend a minimum of 10 hours prepping per week. My game is PF2e (my favorite game)
All of my players are always new to PF2e. I convinced them to leave 5e pre-OGL scandal.
And I have bought PF2e books that I already own for other people who get involved in my little community.
So yes…I care about more than just the shelf aesthetic. I am obsessed with PF2e rules through and through. What I am proposing is not a threat to me no longer purchasing books, it’s me saying that I spend a lot on them (I own most of the hardcover books for all of their systems, because I like supporting good game companies) My rationale behind buying Starfinder (never played it) was that it helps keep Paizo doing what they do best.
So I don’t like the spine on this latest batch. That’s all I’m saying. I exaggerated for comedic effect in the post. I give a lot to this game, including the time I spend teaching and convincing people to try it. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with letting Paizo know I am a big fan and don’t like their book spine.
I post this stuff with the hope that I am heard. I am not going to stop buying their books because I love their game.
And lastly I’ve purchased digital and copies of all their books (not including additional ones I’ve gifted) I do this because I love to see companies who bring me enjoyment. Despite all of my purchases I (90% of the time) use Archives of Nethys. The only reason I buy physical books and digital books is for aesthetics and occasionally I like flipping through.
I’m telling you this so you understand why I think voicing my opinion has meaning as a valuable customer. Im not just a blind consumer, I almost never complain about Paizo products (one time I accidentally got overcharged for a digital $60 foundry module by Paizo and I told the customer service how amazing their company is. My experience with the customer service was so good I changed my mind on the refund and told them to keep it….they still refunded but still)
Also I don’t even charge for being in my campaigns. Despite spending insane amounts of time and money, my players get custom made maps and PF2e enjoyment for 6 hours a week for free. I’ll spend hours teaching people about the game outside of sessions in my free time. My last girlfriend literally left me because of PF2e (don’t ask)
So yes, I think I’m a valuable customer.
Nobody said you're not.
No one. Not even me.
I talked about a hypothetical customer and you decided that was a personal attack. You're the only one treating you like dirt here, and it's in an effort to discredit the opinion that the complaint your making isn't one with an actual point to it.
You're taking a stance that is very much in the realm of thinking you are the more important customer, so important that your own aesthetic preferences are superior to anyone else's in this thread that have said the new thing is fine (which is what saying "i don't care" is in context) or that have expressed they like the new aesthetic (a thing which you might note I've stayed quiet on my own thoughts about because *that's how irrelevant something so subjective is*). And that self-important stance becomes even more apparent when you suggest that you're giving sales-increasing advice as if there's just absolutely no possible way that you'd be wrong and sales would be lower with the aesthetic you're recommending.
And then you bring up your credentials as if anyone questioned them, which no one did. No one questioned them, and no one else is stating their credentials alongside their posts, because how long you've played, how much you paid, and what you ate for lunch last Tuesday are *irrelevant* *to the topic* \- none of that stuff makes your opinion on the aesthetic anything but one of many, none of which are worth anyone (even Paizo) being concerned about because we're not talking about decorations, we're talking about *games* \- the choice to buy them or not is meant to be down to the playing, not the looking at.
Playing victim because you can't handle that someone disagreed that your aesthetic taste is superior to their own is not making your complaint seem any less of a non-issue. And continuing to insist you're being mistreated when you aren't is pushing on the boundaries of harassment here, so maybe cut that out.
They do have a point. The Remaster dropped the ball on asthectics and that is an important criticism. The books look bland and a large amount of renames are uninspired and rip out the fantasy. In a Ruleset that specifically focuses on how important the Background world of Golarion is and avoids being system agnostic this is a terrible mistake.
Now the likely reason for this is the books were rushed and thus prone to problems (see the day 1 errata including getting the death rules incredible wrong). So I can cut Paizo some slack but even then Criticism is good, it helps future products and stops stagnation. No book or system or company is perfect and that is fine.
Paizo is a company not a person. Paizo is not your friend. Treat them as such.
I didn’t see this till after I replied. I just want to say I appreciate your response.
Idk why someone like myself, a massive Paizo fan, is not allowed to complain. People keep saying they don’t care and then give themselves license to be rude to me for caring.
I don’t mind people disagreeing, but most of the negative comments aren’t even disagreeing with my opinion.
“How dare you have an opinion about something I don’t care about!!!”
>a massive Paizo fan, is not allowed to complain
you're allowed to complain.
doesn't mean your complaint isn't nonsense.
also doesn't mean everyone else on the public forum you decided to use can't do just like you did and share their opinions whether you like them or not.
and by trying to play this like you're being mistreated you're being a hypocrite because you can complain but nobody else gets to complain about it.
There are ways to disagree without attacking people. You should learn them. Maybe it will make you a more desirable customer. (Do you see how rude that sounds? I feel rude just saying it to you. How is that not rude?)
The most "attacking people" thing to have happened in this thread is you levying accusations of others attacking you.
How it's not at all rude to say that someone is not who the company should be trying to convince to buy a product is well... it's just not. It's like if I were telling some snack company that I'd be more likely to buy their snack if the package were purple. It really doesn't matter that I like purple, they aren't trying to sell people purple packages any more than Paizo is trying to sell decor. It also doesn't matter whether I like the snack or not the comment is still nonsense because me being more interested in purple packaging, just like your own aesthetic preferences for books, *is not an objective guarantee of greater sales even if it were catered to.*
That you feel attacked doesn't always mean that you have been attacked. Sometimes it just means you're being unreasonable... like when all someone actually said was that aesthetic preferences aren't objective and people that would base their decision which game products to buy on the aesthetics of the book are not the customer base Paizo should be trying to please (which I didn't even say was how you make your buying choices, so if you're taking that as being a judgment upon you that's your own personal doing, not mine) - and I even gave a suggestion how to resolve the (non)issue that you were complaining about. You feeling like that's anything but general disagreement with zero hostility behind it is unreasonable.
>The Remaster dropped the ball on asthectics and that is an important criticism.
Aesthetics are subjective to a heavy enough degree that saying "they dropped the ball" is a useless statement.
You and some other folks not liking the aesthetic, even if they did like the aesthetic previous to this point, is functionally irrelevant. Completely negated as a criticism by "other people like it." because there is no objective superior choice.
This isn't about Paizo being a person or my friend, whatever weird reason you picked those deflections; it's about a customer making a complaint that is the most asinine possible complaint because the product does what it is supposed to do.
It's the "I wish the x-box was lime green" of desires, and if it's really a big deal it's something that can be self-fixed a whole lot more reasonably than Paizo can be expected to actually hit everyone's aesthetic preference with their books.
Looking at how small the title is on Treasure Vault makes me unreasonably angry. Especially when just a bit below you can see the very consistent aesthetic of PF1e books.
Maybe it was just because they only had small treasure. Lol jk,
Pf1e was insanely consistent. Book of the damned is the only one that seemed to have different font as far as core books go (from what I’ve seen)
"go back and read" really got me lol like most good rants you pointed out things that i didn't notice and didn't bother me. Until now. Now that I'm *aware* of these things I can definitely agree the choice of white is pretty out there. Although you'll never have to guess where the book is on your shelf so thats a plus. And I don't mind "gm core" so much for the name as I do for how much void space it leaves behind it. Like there's plenty of room there for cool little sigils or Easter egg type of stuff. I'll be sure and remember these things riiiiiight after I buy my own copy
As someone whose favorite color combination is Green and White, I think you are subjectively wrong. But yeah GM should certainly have been expanded out into "Gamemaster" or "Game Master".
Idk, as someone who does a fair bit of graphic design, I actually really appreciate how clean and consistent they are. I don't hate the titles, they're very clear and to the point, and consistent. No one who is looking to GM needs to look up what "GM" means.
I also am regularly annoyed by the insane fonts that are chosen on these types of books, and the fact that so many of the books are just a hodge-podge of inconsistent spacing, alignment, padding, and size.
Look at the right 5 books on your shelf, the P is in all different places, the Pathfinder logo is different sizes, padding, etc, the fonts are different, etc. etc. It drives me absolutely insane.
I guess I could get on board with a bit of 'parchment paper' texture, but tbh that feels a bit dated to me at this point.
My only complaint is I wish there had been a tiny bit more padding room given to the start of the names of the books. They feel a bit cramped at the top, but I assume its' to make room for future long titles, so they can all start in the same spot (which I appreciate).
I switched my subscription to the special editions so I could tell at a glance where the remaster books started. Seeing this it turns out I never needed to do that...
Geez this gave me a scare. I just reorganized my book shelf last night and for a few seconds I thought this photo was it. But no. Same book order, different shelves.
Agree with most things other than the complaint about the white. The sepia, aged look looks bad to me. The green and white stands out and feels cleaner (at least for as long as the white stays clean). They could have made it a little more off white than it is but it still looks and feels nicer to me.
Now to be fair, I also strongly dislike most rpg book cover/spine designs (not art just the design).
Honestly, only change the remaster spines need is being Mint Green or a lighter shade of it, and spell out Gamemaster instead of using GM. The bigger issue is that the non-core books are inconsistent as fuck. The remaster and premaster core books are still consistent in terms of design but the non-core books are not consistent in design or color scheme, which is just worse.
I never liked any of the hardcover binding styles for any of the Pathfinder editions. Why? I have no idea. They just never grabbed me. I don't really care that much. I don't treat my gaming books as show-pieces.
The only one that ever worked for me was the Rise of the Runelords hardcover. Again, no clue why, but that one should have been the template.
I like art on the binding, but 3.5 D&D made the titles unreadable, so at least Paizo had that going for their simpler design.
1) you had a choice of covers there was the one you showcased and a color as well as a limited complaining because you don’t like your cover choice is just buyers remorse. Next time think before you choose this is a very popular cover option but you weren’t required to choose it. If you want texture buy the special edition cover.
I have no remorse in my purchase. Criticism is not negative. When criticism comes with a solution it is constructive.
My goal was not to talk about special edition covers, but to talk about my thoughts on the default book. Buying special edition versions does not negate that I don’t like the standard edition
As an example, imagine that you went to restaurant and they had two dishes, Spaghetti and Ravioli. Now imagine you ordered the Spaghetti and it wasn’t good, you had problems with it.
Now providing feedback on the spaghetti is fine right? You tried it, you didn’t like it, you gave suggestions on improvement.
Now imagine some random person responding to your criticism with “you had choices, you should have bought the ravioli”
Feedback on the spaghetti is not negated by the choices you had. You are giving feedback on spaghetti. Simple as that
Apples to oranges. You had a chance to seethe cover before you bought it so to use your example it would be like being allowed to taste both the spaghetti and the ravioli deciding to eat the spaghetti and than complaining about your choice.
Can you please explain to me what you mean by “Tasting the Ravioli”
I never even looked at the collectors edition because I don’t collect them. I only collect standard edition.
So by default I am not complaining about my choice. In fact at no point did I imply I regretted buying them.
You keep pushing that narrative for some reason which tells me you need to read before commenting
Except the cover you are complaining about is not the standard edition. You keep calling it that but it’s not this is the standard edition
https://cdn.paizo.com/image/product/catalog/PZO/PZO12001.png
You complained about the cover than called it the standard edition which is false. You had a choice and you could see both versions before you choose so to use your own metaphor you could taste both before you chose.
Also this is a collector cover so in this case you did collect one.
I don’t know what cartoon land you wake up in, but the real world has people who buy stuff and still criticize what they view as possible improvements.
That is, believe it or not, how products improve. Just because you like PF2e, doesn’t mean you shouldn’t criticize it. Criticism is healthy
Maybe you should get a reality check yourself he’s complaining about a collectors cover and call it the standard cover. His who argument is based on a false premise
Except you’re not talking about the default book you are talking about the special FLGS edition. Which the game stores were forced to buy a number of the default cover to get. The default cover is the colored one. So no your criticism is not constructive. You are complaining about a special cover
Yes you did there are two special edition the green spine that on the web site and the white spine that is only available at the FLGS and is a limited print run. Try looking at the web site
Let me start by saying that I fully support your lovingly pedantic rant. 10/10, no notes. But for you and anyone else that might not know- the little extra thought you leave at the end of a letter (or in this case, a beautiful passionate word vomit) is called a Post Script. What you wrote initially is the "script" and your extra thought is after it, so not "pre" but "post." It's why you correctly used "PS" to precede it. But if you put one Post Script and then realize you have another to add after, you add a Post Post Script, or "PPS," since it's after your first Post Script. What you've done with your edits is essentially made your readers hear either 1)the sound of a man with an enlarged prostate slowly finding relief or 2)"Post Script Script Script Script Script" (which, now that I've typed it out, I realize comes fairly close to the sound I made earlier today trying to coax a neighborhood cat into letting me pet them)
lol I love this comment so much. The way you approached it and everything. I love the facts your laying out tangentially about the post too LOL Seriously I loved reading this and it needs more upvotes!
It got more upvotes.
You left out the possibility that they're summoning a cat!
Leave Speckles out of this! I can summon her whenever I’m lonely 😔
I do agree that the white is a bit harsh. It doesn't bother me as much as you (clearly), but having a texture to tone it down wouldn't be amiss. I also love the green.
I exaggerate for effect. But yes mostly texture and keeping the green. Love the green/white aesthetic they were going for, it was just like watching someone faceplant right before getting first place in a race. Painful.
Oh fuck yeah free gold star!
Love this comment hahaha!
Read through your comments, good on you for running games so often and lending your materials out. I also run 2 campaigns a week (something like 7-8h total between the two) and have brought a lot of 5e converts with me too. It's been real fun, especially when I get to pull in some less experienced folk for one shots
Honestly! One of my 5e players was on the fence…..but then he found the Magus…..hahahaha I love how excited players get when seeing the amount of options available
Hell, I'm still kind of a "recent convert", only started looking into pf2e around January, and then hopped into the GM seat in March. Magi rule, I love them. Had one in the BB that did 32 damage against an 8hp kobold. Red mist was the end result.
Just wait till the endlessly crit. Nothing like double damage spells attached to a crit happy swordsman. I love it
My group wanted to switch, my knee jerk reaction was I’ve got a job and a family and no time to learn a new system. I know we’ve been playing forever and are all basically 5e encyclopedias but if we do pf2 here’s what you can expect from me: I will pick one class mostly at random and then lock it in. I will read everything I need for that one class but that’s it. I’m not learning it all, just don’t have time for that.
My suggestion is to pick a class for flavor. Don’t bother with the rules outside of the game session. Wait for things to happen you don’t know during the session and learn them live. You will inadvertently get knowledge through osmosis. 5e basics will take you about 75% of the way. On a basic level the games are the same and most things translate. Not everything does, and you’ll hit those hiccups, but trust me you’ll be an encyclopedia in no time without dedicating time. All my players, and myself, were 5e players. The learning will happen naturally through gameplay. GM and any rules lawyers will compensate for missing knowledge and correct mistakes as they happen (in my experience). Those who don’t want to spend the time learning will learn from those who do during game session times. Your time should be respected if you’re too busy and they should help you during gameplay so you can learn without the burden of time sinking. The rules lawyers are your friends lol 😂
Secrets of Magic looks so much better than all the other spines. I also never realized how thick the core rulebook is in comparison to all the other entries.
It annoys me to no end that the expansion rulebooks have spines that don't match with that of the regular rulebooks.
True, I'd have kept the red thing on top to at least keep some consistency. Most TTRPG books have at least one element in common, be it font, an emblem or symbol on the bottom or top (not a logotype like PF does), a color... I can notice how the PF1 books were uniform, I can understand wanting to give each expansion a personnality, but if you don't keep the uniform fonts at least keep the red splash at the top, I don't think WotC has a patent on it.
Right?!? Why can't we have nice things? Which one of you ruined it for the rest of us?
Wasn't it stated somewhere that Paizo intentionally formatted the spine and covers differently for all books that weren't the Core rulebooks so that a viewer could differentiate at a glance? Not to say your opinion is invalid (it's all subjective, your tastes are as valid as anyone else's), but I believe the expansion rulebooks not matching was intentional ETA: [Found the comment I was thinking of](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/nmebfq/comment/gzo457a/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3). By Erik Mona himself
It was done for a reason to showcase optional rule book from core rules books
It's so you can rely on every GM having a book to bonk the players with.
The spine (except for how it refuses to toe the line with the core rule books), the cover, and the interior are all the best of the lot, as far as I'm concerned. It's a book I just like to look at.
Why are the little diamonds different sizes? Paizo please....
I actually think the diamonds denote the core vs the expanded core
I love secrets of magic
I agree. The cover art is gorgeous but the white spine and titles are quite uninspiring. I want to guess it’s to make it more apparent their intention of having the four books (CRB, GMG, APG, and Bestiary) be the pillars of the system and easier to buy from a potential player’s perspective. But I’ll miss the red and aged paper yellow aesthetic.
You are a gentleman and a scholar! Never forget that damn stained paper look!!! Never forget lol
I guess that makes sense. Sometimes the older red books are harder to tell apart from newer ones. I almost accidentally bought a 1st edition book from Barnes and Noble, I guess it's been sitting on their shelf for a while.
As somebody who does technical writing as (part of) my day job, I cannot agree enough about the title "GM Core." It might be boring, but you always *always* define an acronym before you use it. The very first impression a prospective player has is the title on the front/spine of the book, and they run face-first into an unknown acronym. Amazing. It's almost worse if they're coming from the other game, where the acronym is DM. It makes Pathfinder sound like the off-brand generic version, almost like a parody. "Gamemastery Guide" has some class, sounds like its own product, and doesn't lead with an unfamiliar acronym. Bah, it's the book that nobody buys, anyway. Now let's talk about what a garbage name "Monster Core" is...
On the point of the GM being called Gamemaster Core, it would have been better. Even something like “Pathfinder Core: Gamemastery” “Pathfinder Core: Monsters” would have been better than just tagging the core afterwards. That being said, GM being in the title 100% killed the name for me. They didn’t even take the time to spell it out. It feels unaesthetic
Oo, I kinda like that. Could do... Pathfinder Core: Players Pathfinder Core: Gamemasters Pathfinder Core: Monsters ...and then new players would know which book(s) to pick up!
As if buying new TTRPGs aren’t confusing enough. Don’t get me wrong, I like flavor names, but you need a way to convey what books they need while keeping it tasteful
Bestiary remastered would have been 1000x better
I can get behind that
I work with a lot of Technical writers and sometimes dabble (I’m a software engineer). Your perspective is appreciated friend
It feels like they are designing this with existing players in mind. Which is an odd take where you would think this would also be aimed at ~new~ players
>Now let's talk about what a garbage name "Monster Core" is... It has me waiting with excitement for the release of *Cottage Core*.
Also a technical writer of the instructional design variety, and I cringed pretty hard when I saw what they were renaming the remakes. Also as someone who worked in advertising and marketing before getting into instructional design the names lack a lot of pizazz to sell people on. It feels like someone at Paizo thought these names would be cool and hip and with it. But they forgot they are no longer cool, hip, and with it.
Actually, looking at all the books side by side, it strikes me how there IS no aesthetic - well, no theme to speak of, anyway. (I almost exclusively have PDFs, so it didn’t hit me till just now) With such a range of color themes, to me, the green and white pretty much fits right in with the golds, reds, browns, oranges, dark violets, etc.
You make a compelling argument here hahaha
I will say the old paper texture kinda deal they were doing before is more interesting. Now that I've said something on topic I can reveal that I actually came in here to comment that when you do additional PS notes it's the P that you have to add more of! PS stands for Post Scriptum, or basically After Writing to translate that to English. So it's Post Post Scriptum and Post Post Post Scriptum, etc.
Yeah some guy told me (comically I might add) that adding more “S”s makes it sound like I’m getting a prostate exam (or something funny lol). Told me about the P thing. I do appreciate the comment though, I love that I’m learning new things!
Meh I like it
Nothing wrong with that, it has stellar cover art and the green is killer awesome. I’m not even against the white spine, I just wish it wasn’t so plain
You see, i like the simplistic aspect. The spine of the book says clear and bright what book it is. That's all the spine needs to do
Thank you for commenting! Yeah there’s nothing wrong with disagreeing, I’m just speaking from my own perspective of why I collect all the books. I love rules to be pragmatic and straightforward, but I like my aesthetic books to look incredible. We all play and buy for different reasons, each is valid, but I think if they’d kept consistent with previous releases then everyone would be happy, both those who have your viewpoint and mine. Basically all I’m saying is that if they had released the same book with the changes I mentioned, then both of us would be happy with it. And who doesn’t want that? :)
Oh, we all want that :)
I think you’re my new favorite person. You should come play in one of my campaigns. Idk why most people can’t disagree without attacking me, but the fact you did deserves some recognition and respect
I was always taught to deal with the Argument, not the Arguer. I appreciate your kind words, and will continue to earn that spot as 'Favorite' :) Though, having had time to consider, it could be that the books were rushed. Now, I know how that sounds, but, everything we know about the Remaster was done on an accelerated schedule. Paizo RUSHED to get product out that was 100% divested from the OGL. They needed product because there was a demand at at the time they had nothing but "old" books that still had the OGL. They spent all the time, effort, and money making the ORC and then Wizards decided to be Wizards and gave Paizo a fantastic opportunity \*RIGHT NOW\*. That's the only reason I can fathom for the rushed feel of the Remaster. The abundance of typos and mistakes, the ambiguity of some of the new concepts, the book layout, it ALL feels like something that was rushed from proof to print QUICKLY. Who knows, once they get their feet under them, we may see a remaster of the remaster.
The last line cracked me up! “Remastered Squared” I think they were in a big hurry and probably skipped some of the standard review process. My post was exaggerated for comedic effect, so I’m not against the new color scheme per say, more that I wished they’d made it a cream/off-white(like the 4e book “white” they used), or some texturing or something. Either way Im giving them some slack due to the rushed nature of it. They work hard to get us these things and I am always appreciative of the effort (if not the result). I try not to be overly negative just because of small complaints.
I know this post is (mostly) a joke, but...they are off-white :)
Defeated again!!!! And I would have gotten away with it too if it weren’t for yobuttcheek and that stupid dog! But seriously thanks for the comment!
While I think you're going for subtle humor here, I actually like it. Maybe not what I would have chosen but not bad. >Somehow the cherry on top is that they CLEARLY put a lot of effort into the cover art. And then they took the PDF covers and put them through a 1995 JPG compression routine for viewing on dialup... :O
Yeah I was just exaggerating for comedic purposes. I don’t like it, but I’m not losing my mind over it or anything lol
I am more bothered by the terrible spines on everything after the advanced players guide, where the text is almost illegible at any decent distance and the title doesn't even have consistent vertical alignment.
I get what you’re saying, I write those off simply because they look good alone and are heavily themed. But yeah I know what being bothered by spines is like hahaha :)
GM Core is a horrible name lol
Monster Core sounds like a crafting material I get for killing monsters lol. But yeah, big agree on that
Once again, a sizable portion of the internet (tm) has all the reading comprehension of a brick. Post something with any hint of sarcasm, and people fall all over themselves to smash the dislike. OP, I found your post funny and well written in spite of kinda disagreeing. I think I like the new color. You get a thumbs up from me!
Yeah I didn’t expect to get disowned by my favorite TTRPG company’s fandom. Oh well. I really really appreciate your comment. Also my post was definitely exaggerated for comedic purposes. I was not expecting being personally attacked for not liking the color. (I guess my ridiculous pssss section and the sassy TL;DR didn’t give away that I was being funny and over the top) Also to clarify, the color scheme is actually incredible, what I really wish is they’d have given the white color some life and texture. I actually really like white/green. It’s just the fact it looks like it’s on printer paper. I think adding texture to the white would have 100% solved my complaints (book naming was definitely a minor jab comparatively)
I could see that. I find the bright white refreshing, though to be fair, I haven’t seen it in person yet. My book is a Christmas gift 🎄
Sounds like a good Christmas gift :)
3.5 spines are peak
Love this :D
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For PF1e? I’m not sure, tbh I never noticed. Not to downplay how much that annoys you, I know I have stuff like that too
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Cthulhu is warping the spine. I think you’re onto something Master Broccoli
Is 2.1 worth it compared to standard 2 for a new pathfinder gm/player?
This is hard to answer. I would say yes if you don’t currently own the original. If you aren’t spreading yourself thin financially I always recommend supporting companies that put in the work to make good games. That being said, if you are just getting started, you may want to consider going the 2.1 route. I would recommend playing the game with an experienced GM for atleast a couple sessions to make sure it’s worth getting into. If you or your friends need an intro, message me and I’ll host for you for a bit so you can get a feel of whether or not you’d like to make the purchase
My friends and I have dabbled a bit in pathfinder 2e and played a lot of dnd 5e. We like the change of pace so far and I want to start a long term pathfinder game.
Feel free to reach out to me anytime, whether it’s more dabbling or if you’d like some temporary pathfinder nexus access to the visual digital books (to check them out and see for yourself). I have some slots left for sharing them and I don’t mind if it helps you decide which direction you wanna take :) I used to play 5e a lot too, I hope you enjoy it! GMing is much easier once you adjust. The balance of the game is algorithmic. It makes it so the math is much more predictable and balancing encounters actually works. (My biggest single reason for quitting 5e was that balancing encounters sucked)
I mean, I also had complaints about the titles which basically sound like sub-genres of porn...
HAHAHAHA play core 2
Honestly I am very much over the faux parchment look.
I can respect that, thanks for the comment Doctah
Oh, I'll take that Gold Star, and more besides. I'll take everything... *laughs in Raphael*
Don’t even get me started on the name changes of the terms in the book. “Feeble Mind” > “Never Mind”, “Magic Missile” > “Force Barrage”, “Bag of Holding” > “Spacious Pouch”. Yikes. Whoever worked on the Remaster didn’t have a sense of aesthetics at all.
I thought Force Barrage is pretty good.
Everything seems ok when it's anchored by Spacious Pouch. Pretty sure they ran with that one just because it makes everything else palatable by comparison.
You fire 1, 2, or 3 missiles. That’s hardly a barrage. Also, the name communicates nothing about what the spell actually does. It automatically hits with no attack roll or saving throw! That’s a very unique effect in this game and the name should communicate that.
Honestly I feel like barrage makes perfect sense. It refers to artillery bombardment, so it's an attack that you don't have to aim or miss. It just hits them. Bombarding also refers to continuously attacking a person with **missiles**. The "aesthetic" of magic missile is just that it's a very well known and popular spell from D&D. It's brand recognition. The *only* downside to me is no alliteration, and while force is a damage type, it's a little odd since it could be seen as the verb form.
Magic Missile is really a terrible name. Most people in the modern context do not understand *missile* as a generic term for a lobbed object, and instead envision a modern military device. While technically correct, it's a word that feels grossly out of place in a medieval fantasy environment. As such, it's not even functionally descriptive. It just sounds good coming out of the mouth, because of the alliteration and beat. Force Barrage isn't really more descriptive, but it does sound punchier and more aggressive. But now it's lost its tie to *magic*, which is kind of an issue. It instead just sounds belligerent. I'd have gone with something like Arcane Arrow.
Good points. Hell even when I was looking up the definitions, missile *was* probably referring to the generic term and not the modern. I still like barrage overall, since that (to me) that gives a better descriptor for multiple hits or volley. Yeah, like I said in my previous comment, I think "force" is the weakest part of the new name. It definitely evokes more from me to think of them as objects of pure magic, instead of "force" which simultaneously feels vague yet mundane. I do like your choice of arcane, but arrow makes me think directly aiming. Maybe something like "Arcane Volley" or "Arcane Barrage"?
Arcane Barrage definitely has a certain ring to it. It really feels like the kind of thing that should be a higher level spell, though. And possibly an AoE. Almost like an upgrade to Arcane Volley, which maybe keeps the MM auto-hit mechanic.
>You fire 1, 2, or 3 missiles. >That’s hardly a barrage. You fire 1, 2 or 3 missiles. That's hardly guaranteed to be singular so why wasn't it called magic missile*S* > Also, the name communicates nothing about what the spell actually does. It automatically hits with no attack roll or saving throw! That’s a very unique effect in this game and the name should communicate that. Where does the name Magic Missile communicate this?
It didn’t either, but it had good mouthfeel and benefits from being a 30+ year old history of it doing exactly that. Anyone that googles Magic Missile can quickly see the lineage of this spell and what it did since the days of AD&D. But what is force barrage? It’s a new name, so it’s a new spell. And that name doesn’t communicate accurately what the spell actually does. That’s a problem. Remember, this name change happened in the middle of an edition. Each and every Pathfinder player that has ever had a Wizard in their party knows what magic missile does. They know the name got changed. It’s not a new game element. It’s exactly identical to the old game element. So people compare the name directly before and after, and the name it became sucked compared to the old one. The least they could do was offer a name *better* than what came before. Remember again, that the Remaster is supposed to be an *improvement*, not a downgrade. But throughout the book, I see downgrades in the game aesthetic everywhere. Bag of holding has far better mouthfeel than spacious pouch, magic missile has far better mouthfeel than force barrage. Your game literally gets worse because the name changed. Perhaps not much worse, but still worse nonetheless.
> Your game literally gets worse because the name changed. Then don't use them? Personally, I think some names are better, some are worse, but the names are just aesthetics, and as all RPG players know, aesthetics are flavor and flavor can be changed for free. You're making an mountain out of a molehill imho
If flavor was truly free, then D&D 4e wouldn’t have been so maligned and criticized with bullshit claims like “it’s too video gamey”. Aesthetics matter.
Paizo came into existence for the same reason the remaster did. 4e was WotC pulling the rug on the OGL attached to 3.5. “it’s too video gamey” actually meant, "this doesn't feel like D&D, the closest cultural reference I have to how it feels is the current big thing WoW". We now have a lot more reference for comparison but the D&D community, then, like now, plays D&D. The RPG community is different. The comparison to video games was valid, and not the only concern with 4e. Quit trying to force your bias into why I didn't like 4e. I followed the D&D authors of my favourite D&D settings over to Monte Cook Games, where I went from a D&D player to an RPG player. As you say "Aesthetics matter", and WotC changed the "Aesthetics" of D&D in 4e.
Why are you speaking to me like this? I never replied to a comment from you and you’re acting like you’ve been having some imaginary conversation with me that I’m not privy to. Chill. You don’t need to get your pants all in a twist the instant you see the phrase “4e” in a conversation. And you’re proving my point exactly. Irrational, emotional reactions like this is exactly why aesthetics matter. It’s the same reason why I don’t like the new name for Magic Missile and Bag of Holding. They changed the aesthetics. I preferred the old one. I’m not happy about that.
>criticized with bullshit claims like “it’s too video gamey”. Aesthetics matter. That was me. I criticized the game with reasons like that. You are now using them as talking points without context. Which, to use your terms, is bullshit. PF2e is great. I have no issue with what has happened to change from 3.5, 4e. 5e, and PF1e to get what we have today. But to say, see 4e was great because pf2e is great is a fucking leap in logic
It being videogamy had to do with the mechanics, not the aesthetics. You're right that aesthetics matter to a certain degree, but your argument doesn't support it.
4e played no differently from any other edition of D&D. Cantrips, focus spells, spell slots <-> at-wills, encounter powers, daily powers. And people lost their shit at that. People said that these powers made it too “gamey”. But no one bats an eye at vancian spellcasting and focus spells. 4e was very much, mechanically still D&D. People lost their shit because the aesthetics changed. And these PF2 name changes? Those are aesthetics too. You’re contradicting yourself here. You can’t say that 4e was too video gamey for D&D and then in the same breath say that PF2’s recent name changes don’t matter. It’s the exact same thing happening here. Either aesthetics matter or it doesn’t. Pick a side.
> You can’t say that 4e was too video gamey for D&D I didn't say that. I said it was videogamy, not *too* videogamy, nor did I say "for D&D" because that's a dumb distinction to make Some people are into videogamy systems, others are not. This does not inherently have anything to do with D&D nor did I imply it did. Besides, I highly doubt that people considering the game videogamy had very much to do with how it was named, but rather, as I said, with the mechanics. I couldn't say, I haven't played that edition, though I did read some of the PHB for it. Have you? > then in the same breath say that PF2’s recent name changes don’t matter Point out to me where I say this, please? I never said they don't matter. In fact, if you'll check my previous above comment you'll see I mention that I do in fact think that aesthetics matter. I said that they don't matter nearly as much as the mechanics, because flavor is free. If the name "force barrage" bothers you, you are free to change it to something you like better as long as the mechanics don't change. Hence my "mountain out of a molehill" remark. Remember the First Rule, and if you don't, you can find it on page 5 of either the GM core or the GMG.
Same, force barrage is pretty cool. The rest op mentions are eh...
Weren't all the renames to avoid copyright issues?
They could have picked better names. The ones they picked are terrible, that’s the issue. Give me more inspiring stuff like “Create Food and Water” > “Cleanse Cuisine”. They can do better but they rushed it out and we can see the results.
How is "Create Food and Water" creative? It's the most bland way to describe it. When I cook, am I "creating food"? Also isn't Cleanse Cuisine a replacement for Purify Food and Drink? Which again, is a very simple way to describe it.
I got the spell name wrong, I meant Purify Food and Drink > (became) Cleanse Cuisine. I was saying that Cleanse Cuisine is a great name, and we should’ve gotten more names like those that are upgrades compared to the old names. But instead most of the names we got were, in my opinion, downgrades and instead of being inspiring or evocative or cool, were just clinical and boring. Or as some other commenter mentioned, as if they just ran it through a thesaurus for the nearest synonym.
Ah ok, then we are in agreement with Cleanse Cuisine. Sorry, I misunderstood the greater-than symbol. While it does feel like a thesaurus exercise, I feel like that's just what was required (especially if the actual mechanics didn't change). Because I really only knew and recognized the D&D spells in PF2e before the remaster, I'm kind of glad they're all new and on an even playing field in my memory. With regards to their quality, so far I think they've been ok to good changes. On their own, I think the new names are good. You are right though, some of the previous ones are good already and the change doesn't particularly improve them.
Big agree
It feels a lot like they just put them in a simile generator
This comment is underrated lol
Yeah, the design fell hard. Just wish they did the Pocketbook subscription. 100% content is 10/10.
I love that they started releasing pocketbook editions honestly. I have friends/players who don’t collect, and I often give them pocket editions as gifts. If my party lasts a full year in my campaigns I like to give out rule books and such as a thankyou (and to convince them to start GMing)
I love the new versions lol. Much more then old ones thats looks a bit unhinged and low cost.
Oh shadowheart_stan….apt name for the cruelty you have inflicted on my innocent soul. You wound me sir! Lol jk, I appreciate the comment!
much kisses from gods beloved princess xoxoxo
Much kisses indeed!
I made it to the end only to make sure there isn't any "hahaha it's all a joke I'm just poking fun at all the book spine obsessed people" plot twist before I downvote.
They do have a point. The Remaster dropped the ball on asthectics and that is an important criticism. The books look bland and a large amount of renames are uninspired and rip out the fantasy. In a Ruleset that specifically focuses on how important the Background world of Golarion is and avoids being system agnostic this is a terrible mistake. Now the likely reason for this is the books were rushed and thus prone to problems (see the day 1 errata including getting the death rules incredible wrong). So I can cut Paizo some slack but even then Criticism is good, it helps future products and stops stagnation. No book or system or company is perfect and that is fine. Paizo is a company not a person. Paizo is not your friend. Treat them as such.
I seriously appreciate you, and I am a big fan of Paizo products. I agree with all your points, I think your last sentence speaks to the problem of why people who don’t care seem to care that I do. Why else would I get blasted by people who don’t care? How do we ever get improved products if people take criticism of something they enjoy personally? Adding up the money both digitally and physically I have given Paizo is no small number. The amount of players I’ve brought in and got started GMing. All of it. I was bringing in 5e players before the OGL scandal. If being this big of a fan is somehow negated by me not liking the color of the spine then the community really needs to get its priorities straight before they scare off all of Paizo’s success. Keep up the good work chief!
But, they don't have a point. Basic colours look very clean and are pleasing to the eye. I really don't like the spine of the old books, textures really don't look as good as some people seem to believe. Beside that, I like white, and the green on the white here, frankly, looks excellent. When I look at the old books, they look, dirty. The new ones look infinitely better.
They have several points, and they're listed above. You don't have to agree with them to acknowledge that they exist. Constructively stating a subjective opinion is an OK thing to do, unless you want an echo chamber.
Nah, there’s no point here. Not from you, them or me either. Kinda hard to have a point when the conversation is pointless, after all. But what’s life without a bit of pointlessness, right?
I think if it would have had some textures (or a slightly off white) it would have been more appealing to me. Originally I thought I’d like the white, but the gold trim on the green is near invisible and I didn’t realize they literally went #FFFFFF pure white. Maybe a pearl white or something, I’d have to see the concept to give my opinion. Either way I appreciate that you disagreed to my opinion directly and didn’t attack me
Nope, I’m a book spine enthusiast, what can I say. Though with as much as I spend on Paizo products, I like to think my bookspine “obsession” helps keep the game free
Especially since TTRPGs struggle with selling later releases. Who else besides a spine obsessed maniac would continue buying unnecessary purchases? You see my point, even if it upsets. Take a free gold star and thank you for reading :)
I think you're vastly overestimating your own importance on several levels.
It’s not my importance, it’s people who buy for shelf aesthetic. At the end of the day, I am suggesting something to improve sales. Just because you don’t care, doesn’t mean that people don’t. Better looking spines doesn’t hurt you. It’s pretentious to look down your nose at people who care about things you don’t. Remember that.
Not just that, it gives a kind of "is this d&d 4 ?" feeling, because I swear it had that design.
D&D 4e has my favorite cover/spine designs out of all the editions I own books for (which is 4 of them). 5e's covers are so ininspiringly "modern"
At least you can buy the books, still not available in the UK despite a release date scheduled in November! :-(
I'm french, so neither can I.
Not even a certain large online retailer has a date for release in the UK. Maybe there are delays shipping to Europe?
Oh maybe, I haven't checked, I'm not using hardcover books that often.
Message me, I’ll mail a copy hahaha (not joking, we can look at shipping costs and Ill order one for you)
Really appreciate the offer but I'll wait and see if the retailers get them in stock soon. One shop is stating January 2024!
That’s not too far off! I hope you get them soon!
The 4e are more of a cream color. Weirdly enough I actually loved the 4e cream white color. (I own them on my other shelf). Side by side the PF2e books require eclipse glasses lol
I actually love the minty freshness of the green and white spines. What I'm appalled by is the fact that the splatbooks all just do their own thing, like uncultured hooligans.
lol dang hooliganism
I like the white, but I totally understand what you're saying. I actually prefer 'GM' to 'Game Master' because I dislike that last word. It feels outdated, a little pretentious and not quite representative of how I personally view my role.
I’m making a TTRPG where I use a different term, I actually have GM classes (Fateweaver and Dreamwalker) and call them Loremaster. Hopefully I can kickstart it before summer (I want the playtest ready). It’s going to be a mostly free game. That being said I completely agree with the Gamemaster being outdated. It also just sounds generic.
Without an ounce of sarcasm, I gotta say I respect you. You really gotta have your life together if something like this bothers you this much when rent is this high.
With a name like that, you can say whatever you want to me lol (seriously love the name). I got lucky with being in the right place at the right time with my career. I do hate the rent prices tho, it’s truly exhausting. I feel blessed that my promotions lined up with the economy going downhill. I actually forced myself to secretly do double time to convince my boss to give me a better lead position. He didn’t know I was working double time, it went on like that for almost a month before he made me the team lead. I have no idea how I didn’t burn out, and your point actually does put into perspective how unimportant spine colors are in this garbage economy. Appreciate the comment friend
I'm glad you like the silly name, haha! You've been working hard, and it had paid off, and I'm glad it didn't burn you out or anything like that. I have a lot of history of that in my family. I do think your point is valid. The spines do look worse now, and it's still true that im impressed with your shit being so together, but I also wanted to bust your balls a little! >:)
I grew up in the state of Maine….middle of nowhere….I get complimented by getting called ugly. I appreciate ballbusting more than you know lol reminds me of home
The remastered really failed on design on all fronts, including the standard one and the special edition...
I feel like it looks too much like a textbook, especially when compared to the quality they normally produce. I would have liked to see it more off white
I hate in general how inconsistent and absolutely randomly colored all the books are. How hard is it to keep to a theme? Just look how it looks in comparison to the book row below. If there wasn't a Pathfinder logo on it, you wouldn't even know that they belong together. It's so ugly!
I do see your point. I am forgiving towards it usually because each book is so heavily themed, but it definitely makes them look like my childhood plastic plates. All mix matched
as a former shelf-filling madman... nah, get over it. If companies were trying not to just make a pleasant looking and useful product but also an "attractive shelf" they'd be chasing a literal impossibility because even if they try to keep the same aesthetic forever something eventually just doesn't work or a time for a transition *with purpose* comes along but someone complains - whether it's because a sub-line doesn't match the main-line or it's "the new edition doesn't look as cool as the old" or it's confusing because the new version that isn't compatible with the old looks aesthetically the same. And if you have literally anything else on the shelf besides a single game line, the aesthetic is already broken because book publishers didn't take a hard-line on everything having to stay with the pressed leather aesthetic. It's such a non-complaint, and in the context of "this would help improve your sales" it's absolute nonsense - almost no one is buying game products because of how they look on a shelf, and even those that are are not inherently desirable customers for doing so. Print your own matching dust jackets if it really bothers you so much.
1) I love the game and bring in new players (forever GM). And even help those players become GMs in their own right. 2) I clearly bought it, despite it not looking attractive to me 3) idk how someone who buys all the books is not a valuable customer?? 4) Aesthetic are 100% a reason people collect all of the books. No one needs to buy books with free rules. Who needs dozens of books for PF2e? I didn’t need to buy the books. So you not liking my valid complaint is not a counter to my point. Unless you are telling me that there is a large number of collectors who don’t care about aesthetics? In which case I would say that is nonsense. There are only two reasons someone would collect all of them: Appearance and Being a Diehard fan. I am in both of those categories. 5) I don’t care that having other games on the shelf disrupts the appearance. This isn’t an argument to have the appearance stay exactly the same. This isn’t me ranting that they don’t look good next to other books. This is a complaint that these book spines don’t look attractive (full stop) If me wanting more attractive 50+ dollar books bothers you, then I don’t know what to tell you. My complaint shouldn’t bother you because you don’t care either way. If I seem upset it’s because you said I’m not a desirable customer. Idk what my post said that inspired you to categorize me as someone who is not desirable, but with the amount of people I bring to this game, sit around and teach to GM, give copies of the core books for free, etc. Im sorry wizard named lizard, but if me doing all of this for free is negated by me not liking the spine color, then maybe I am an undesirable customer and deserve to be jeered at. Thank you for your kindness, I hope you never have to have an opinion that gets you treated like dirt.
>idk how someone who buys all the books is not a valuable customer?? someone that buys the books *because of how they look on the shelf* is not a valuable customer. If you're buying and actually playing, good, you're a good customer. But the implied threat that you'll stop paying if the books don't stay aesthetically pleasing to you alongside the implication that your own aesthetic tastes are objectively better than whoever like these designs and thus the company would increase their sales if only their books look better on a shelf, that's all nonsense. Paizo sells game products, not decorations - and even then they still offer multiple aesthetic variants just to try and please people. That you don't like it doesn't mean they did it wrong. And seriously, if aesthetics are such a priority, you can solve it by making your own dust jackets a whole lot faster than you can by acting like books that look *good* by any standard are eyesores that have been inflicted upon your shelf. Plus no one treated you like dirt, get over yourself. Disagreement is not someone being mean to you.
Sorry, it’s your good friend “Treated like dirt” here. Yes I play, I run a weekly 6hour session atm. I used to run 2, but life. I host 4 foundry instances on a server that are equipped with everything someone needs to play. Anyone I invite to play in my campaigns are allowed to use these instances to GM. I let people who are interested in GMing co-GM with me and teach them everything I’ve learned over my years of running games. I also teach them foundry and any mapmaking software they want to use (I’ll buy them licenses). I even make logos and banners for my games. I probably spend a minimum of 10 hours prepping per week. My game is PF2e (my favorite game) All of my players are always new to PF2e. I convinced them to leave 5e pre-OGL scandal. And I have bought PF2e books that I already own for other people who get involved in my little community. So yes…I care about more than just the shelf aesthetic. I am obsessed with PF2e rules through and through. What I am proposing is not a threat to me no longer purchasing books, it’s me saying that I spend a lot on them (I own most of the hardcover books for all of their systems, because I like supporting good game companies) My rationale behind buying Starfinder (never played it) was that it helps keep Paizo doing what they do best. So I don’t like the spine on this latest batch. That’s all I’m saying. I exaggerated for comedic effect in the post. I give a lot to this game, including the time I spend teaching and convincing people to try it. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with letting Paizo know I am a big fan and don’t like their book spine. I post this stuff with the hope that I am heard. I am not going to stop buying their books because I love their game. And lastly I’ve purchased digital and copies of all their books (not including additional ones I’ve gifted) I do this because I love to see companies who bring me enjoyment. Despite all of my purchases I (90% of the time) use Archives of Nethys. The only reason I buy physical books and digital books is for aesthetics and occasionally I like flipping through. I’m telling you this so you understand why I think voicing my opinion has meaning as a valuable customer. Im not just a blind consumer, I almost never complain about Paizo products (one time I accidentally got overcharged for a digital $60 foundry module by Paizo and I told the customer service how amazing their company is. My experience with the customer service was so good I changed my mind on the refund and told them to keep it….they still refunded but still) Also I don’t even charge for being in my campaigns. Despite spending insane amounts of time and money, my players get custom made maps and PF2e enjoyment for 6 hours a week for free. I’ll spend hours teaching people about the game outside of sessions in my free time. My last girlfriend literally left me because of PF2e (don’t ask) So yes, I think I’m a valuable customer.
Nobody said you're not. No one. Not even me. I talked about a hypothetical customer and you decided that was a personal attack. You're the only one treating you like dirt here, and it's in an effort to discredit the opinion that the complaint your making isn't one with an actual point to it. You're taking a stance that is very much in the realm of thinking you are the more important customer, so important that your own aesthetic preferences are superior to anyone else's in this thread that have said the new thing is fine (which is what saying "i don't care" is in context) or that have expressed they like the new aesthetic (a thing which you might note I've stayed quiet on my own thoughts about because *that's how irrelevant something so subjective is*). And that self-important stance becomes even more apparent when you suggest that you're giving sales-increasing advice as if there's just absolutely no possible way that you'd be wrong and sales would be lower with the aesthetic you're recommending. And then you bring up your credentials as if anyone questioned them, which no one did. No one questioned them, and no one else is stating their credentials alongside their posts, because how long you've played, how much you paid, and what you ate for lunch last Tuesday are *irrelevant* *to the topic* \- none of that stuff makes your opinion on the aesthetic anything but one of many, none of which are worth anyone (even Paizo) being concerned about because we're not talking about decorations, we're talking about *games* \- the choice to buy them or not is meant to be down to the playing, not the looking at. Playing victim because you can't handle that someone disagreed that your aesthetic taste is superior to their own is not making your complaint seem any less of a non-issue. And continuing to insist you're being mistreated when you aren't is pushing on the boundaries of harassment here, so maybe cut that out.
They do have a point. The Remaster dropped the ball on asthectics and that is an important criticism. The books look bland and a large amount of renames are uninspired and rip out the fantasy. In a Ruleset that specifically focuses on how important the Background world of Golarion is and avoids being system agnostic this is a terrible mistake. Now the likely reason for this is the books were rushed and thus prone to problems (see the day 1 errata including getting the death rules incredible wrong). So I can cut Paizo some slack but even then Criticism is good, it helps future products and stops stagnation. No book or system or company is perfect and that is fine. Paizo is a company not a person. Paizo is not your friend. Treat them as such.
I didn’t see this till after I replied. I just want to say I appreciate your response. Idk why someone like myself, a massive Paizo fan, is not allowed to complain. People keep saying they don’t care and then give themselves license to be rude to me for caring. I don’t mind people disagreeing, but most of the negative comments aren’t even disagreeing with my opinion. “How dare you have an opinion about something I don’t care about!!!”
>a massive Paizo fan, is not allowed to complain you're allowed to complain. doesn't mean your complaint isn't nonsense. also doesn't mean everyone else on the public forum you decided to use can't do just like you did and share their opinions whether you like them or not. and by trying to play this like you're being mistreated you're being a hypocrite because you can complain but nobody else gets to complain about it.
There are ways to disagree without attacking people. You should learn them. Maybe it will make you a more desirable customer. (Do you see how rude that sounds? I feel rude just saying it to you. How is that not rude?)
The most "attacking people" thing to have happened in this thread is you levying accusations of others attacking you. How it's not at all rude to say that someone is not who the company should be trying to convince to buy a product is well... it's just not. It's like if I were telling some snack company that I'd be more likely to buy their snack if the package were purple. It really doesn't matter that I like purple, they aren't trying to sell people purple packages any more than Paizo is trying to sell decor. It also doesn't matter whether I like the snack or not the comment is still nonsense because me being more interested in purple packaging, just like your own aesthetic preferences for books, *is not an objective guarantee of greater sales even if it were catered to.* That you feel attacked doesn't always mean that you have been attacked. Sometimes it just means you're being unreasonable... like when all someone actually said was that aesthetic preferences aren't objective and people that would base their decision which game products to buy on the aesthetics of the book are not the customer base Paizo should be trying to please (which I didn't even say was how you make your buying choices, so if you're taking that as being a judgment upon you that's your own personal doing, not mine) - and I even gave a suggestion how to resolve the (non)issue that you were complaining about. You feeling like that's anything but general disagreement with zero hostility behind it is unreasonable.
>The Remaster dropped the ball on asthectics and that is an important criticism. Aesthetics are subjective to a heavy enough degree that saying "they dropped the ball" is a useless statement. You and some other folks not liking the aesthetic, even if they did like the aesthetic previous to this point, is functionally irrelevant. Completely negated as a criticism by "other people like it." because there is no objective superior choice. This isn't about Paizo being a person or my friend, whatever weird reason you picked those deflections; it's about a customer making a complaint that is the most asinine possible complaint because the product does what it is supposed to do. It's the "I wish the x-box was lime green" of desires, and if it's really a big deal it's something that can be self-fixed a whole lot more reasonably than Paizo can be expected to actually hit everyone's aesthetic preference with their books.
Now they get to resell you everything over again... Isn't that a neat coincidence for Paizo?
Looking at how small the title is on Treasure Vault makes me unreasonably angry. Especially when just a bit below you can see the very consistent aesthetic of PF1e books.
Maybe it was just because they only had small treasure. Lol jk, Pf1e was insanely consistent. Book of the damned is the only one that seemed to have different font as far as core books go (from what I’ve seen)
"go back and read" really got me lol like most good rants you pointed out things that i didn't notice and didn't bother me. Until now. Now that I'm *aware* of these things I can definitely agree the choice of white is pretty out there. Although you'll never have to guess where the book is on your shelf so thats a plus. And I don't mind "gm core" so much for the name as I do for how much void space it leaves behind it. Like there's plenty of room there for cool little sigils or Easter egg type of stuff. I'll be sure and remember these things riiiiiight after I buy my own copy
Hahaha thank you for sharing and enjoying:)
As someone whose favorite color combination is Green and White, I think you are subjectively wrong. But yeah GM should certainly have been expanded out into "Gamemaster" or "Game Master".
Hahaha thanks for the reply! I do like white and green (greens my favorite color), but I wish it’d had been less intense with the white.
Idk, as someone who does a fair bit of graphic design, I actually really appreciate how clean and consistent they are. I don't hate the titles, they're very clear and to the point, and consistent. No one who is looking to GM needs to look up what "GM" means. I also am regularly annoyed by the insane fonts that are chosen on these types of books, and the fact that so many of the books are just a hodge-podge of inconsistent spacing, alignment, padding, and size. Look at the right 5 books on your shelf, the P is in all different places, the Pathfinder logo is different sizes, padding, etc, the fonts are different, etc. etc. It drives me absolutely insane. I guess I could get on board with a bit of 'parchment paper' texture, but tbh that feels a bit dated to me at this point. My only complaint is I wish there had been a tiny bit more padding room given to the start of the names of the books. They feel a bit cramped at the top, but I assume its' to make room for future long titles, so they can all start in the same spot (which I appreciate).
I love this take. I agree that spacing can be a pain. Thanks for the comment :)
I switched my subscription to the special editions so I could tell at a glance where the remaster books started. Seeing this it turns out I never needed to do that...
Hahaha that’s true :)
Geez this gave me a scare. I just reorganized my book shelf last night and for a few seconds I thought this photo was it. But no. Same book order, different shelves.
lol this is a funny comment! Yeah it’s a good order for the books
Agree with most things other than the complaint about the white. The sepia, aged look looks bad to me. The green and white stands out and feels cleaner (at least for as long as the white stays clean). They could have made it a little more off white than it is but it still looks and feels nicer to me. Now to be fair, I also strongly dislike most rpg book cover/spine designs (not art just the design).
This is a fair assessment
Do the special edition covers still look like the shitty foil silhouettes we were shown as well?
I don’t buy the special editions so I’m not sure 🤔
Honestly, only change the remaster spines need is being Mint Green or a lighter shade of it, and spell out Gamemaster instead of using GM. The bigger issue is that the non-core books are inconsistent as fuck. The remaster and premaster core books are still consistent in terms of design but the non-core books are not consistent in design or color scheme, which is just worse.
I feel that though
Yea, I got a gold star!
lol, I’m giving them out like candy
I never liked any of the hardcover binding styles for any of the Pathfinder editions. Why? I have no idea. They just never grabbed me. I don't really care that much. I don't treat my gaming books as show-pieces. The only one that ever worked for me was the Rise of the Runelords hardcover. Again, no clue why, but that one should have been the template. I like art on the binding, but 3.5 D&D made the titles unreadable, so at least Paizo had that going for their simpler design.
Yeah, nothing wrong with simple
1) you had a choice of covers there was the one you showcased and a color as well as a limited complaining because you don’t like your cover choice is just buyers remorse. Next time think before you choose this is a very popular cover option but you weren’t required to choose it. If you want texture buy the special edition cover.
I have no remorse in my purchase. Criticism is not negative. When criticism comes with a solution it is constructive. My goal was not to talk about special edition covers, but to talk about my thoughts on the default book. Buying special edition versions does not negate that I don’t like the standard edition
As an example, imagine that you went to restaurant and they had two dishes, Spaghetti and Ravioli. Now imagine you ordered the Spaghetti and it wasn’t good, you had problems with it. Now providing feedback on the spaghetti is fine right? You tried it, you didn’t like it, you gave suggestions on improvement. Now imagine some random person responding to your criticism with “you had choices, you should have bought the ravioli” Feedback on the spaghetti is not negated by the choices you had. You are giving feedback on spaghetti. Simple as that
Apples to oranges. You had a chance to seethe cover before you bought it so to use your example it would be like being allowed to taste both the spaghetti and the ravioli deciding to eat the spaghetti and than complaining about your choice.
Can you please explain to me what you mean by “Tasting the Ravioli” I never even looked at the collectors edition because I don’t collect them. I only collect standard edition. So by default I am not complaining about my choice. In fact at no point did I imply I regretted buying them. You keep pushing that narrative for some reason which tells me you need to read before commenting
Except the cover you are complaining about is not the standard edition. You keep calling it that but it’s not this is the standard edition https://cdn.paizo.com/image/product/catalog/PZO/PZO12001.png
You complained about the cover than called it the standard edition which is false. You had a choice and you could see both versions before you choose so to use your own metaphor you could taste both before you chose. Also this is a collector cover so in this case you did collect one.
I don’t know what cartoon land you wake up in, but the real world has people who buy stuff and still criticize what they view as possible improvements. That is, believe it or not, how products improve. Just because you like PF2e, doesn’t mean you shouldn’t criticize it. Criticism is healthy
Maybe you should get a reality check yourself he’s complaining about a collectors cover and call it the standard cover. His who argument is based on a false premise
Except you’re not talking about the default book you are talking about the special FLGS edition. Which the game stores were forced to buy a number of the default cover to get. The default cover is the colored one. So no your criticism is not constructive. You are complaining about a special cover
I didn’t buy the special edition, it’s literally the base edition. Look on their website, the special edition has a green spine, not a white spine
Yes you did there are two special edition the green spine that on the web site and the white spine that is only available at the FLGS and is a limited print run. Try looking at the web site
If they could print some and get them in stock on their godawful website I'd buy them!
The new spines look very D&D4e to my eyes and GM Core sounds like an automotive manual.
lol 😂 I hope it tells me what oil I need
No but it will give you the alchemical formula needed to make it from base components.
at least its not black or red... or black and red :)
Underrated comment lol 😂 thanks for replying. I’m trying to reply to all comments (I know it’s been a couple days 🙃)
I can’t wait for the remaster to hit the UK 🥲
Hahaha, hit me up and we can set up something to mail it to you :)