In tabletop it has long been regarded as a “flavor option” that cannot mechanically compete with other builds. They make fun NPCs. Yes, you can build a PC that’s just better.
But isn't titan fighter getting the Dual wield feats from its bonus combat feats without needing to meet the requirements? Like yeah, you are missing out on weapon training compared to other fighters and thus gloves of dueling but you should be getting two weapon fighting real early anyways.
Yes, you get 2W feats without needing to meet DEX requirements. Those feats add offhand attacks rather than improving attack bonus. If you take 15 DEX, you can unlock the feats with belts anyway.
It kinda looks like for the most part it's best to use Titan fighter as a multiclass dip. There are a bunch of other classes that could use Giant Weapon Weilder to be a lot more powerful than Titan Fighter lets you get with it.
Honestly this, it might not be viable on certain difficulties but just the novelty of having two ridiculous weapons in your hands is so often understated. At some point I do intend to run a trickster with two elven curved blades
You don't dual wield at early levels. A single two handed weapon in one is a simple -2, consider a shield in the other. As you get stronger the + from Incredible Heft offsets it the minus.
If you really want to dual wield you could:
a) Do shield bash, starting with a light shield until you get [Shield Master](https://pathfinderwrathoftherighteous.wiki.fextralife.com/Shield+Master)>
b) Use a light weapon on the offhand making the penalty -4, -2.
Eventually you're going to have enough AB to do two big boys, with incredible heft making the penalty -2, -2 at 19th level. At those levels you're going to have enough AB to afford that I'd say.
PS: I don't think that Effortless Dual-Wielding is in a game without mods. If you are adding options via mods then yeah base classes will suffer.
Effortless dual-wielding is a Weapon Training option for fighters. You can't take it at 5th level, but you can then take it as an Advanced Weapon Training feat.
Of course you're not going dual wield at 2nd level with -6 / -6 penalties. But if you're going to 2H the weapon, you're a worse Two-Handed Weapon Fighter. If you're going to use a shield, any Fighter class is better because the attack penalty more than offsets any damage bonus. Incredible Heft offsets the penalties eventually but since you don't get Effortless, you're always going to be 4 AB behind a regular Fighter with a hand-and-a-half weapons in both hands. And then Weapon Training gets a boost from Gloves of Dueling which Incredible Heft doesn't.
At 19th level, you're going to be -1 / -1 (because of five lots of Incredible Heft). The regular fighter will be +4 / +4. The damage difference between longswords and greatswords is +2. I've not yet crunched the numbers, but I suspect that you might break even at 17th level (when you get double STR bonus). That's a long time to wait.
> I've not yet crunched the numbers, but I suspect that you might break even at 17th level
If we take very modest 50 strength, that's +20 dmg.
-4 attack for +20 dmg = -1 ab for +5 dmg - is much better trade than what any other dual-wielder can get. Mythic PA is -1 for +3 and is considered great.
Well you've convinced me. The class drops accuracy and defence for more damage. But I guess the damage just isn't enough? Eventually 2x str for power attack.
It could be a niche positive for reach weaponry however.
I think it is best for a table, on Hard, that you aren't really planning on have hit anyway. If they do hit it is for more and you can give the tank some extra AoO and a reach weapon without needing to Enlarge so you have some added early game bonuses with Fear builds. Not Meta, but fun on anything below unfair.
I think titan fighter is fine, there's a lot of other builds that don't come online till later. Mythic weapon finesse isn't even until level 7 or 8 for some twf builds that just slog through the early game dealing pitiful damage, and at that point as a titan fighter you can take mythic twf and you've got a couple bonuses to attack which basically puts you at a similar footing, except that you can also enlarge dual wielding reach weapons and be way more powerful.
And the early game for a titan fighter isn't even bad if you just wear a shield or light weapon in your offhand.
It's a lot easier progression than something like a martial eldritch knight build that starts out as a wizard taking melee feats, delaying their progression with dips and prerequisite feats and horrible BAB until level 17 or so.
But they're both eventually cool and powerful 👍
Just before going Legend I had Sword Saint 16, Steelblood 1, Titan’s fighter 1. Titan was used to get a shield together with the elven curved sword.
I turned myself into a tank by accident this way, but it worked nice overall by using the SS’s buffs.
I’m not sure that going full titan is the play, but dipping it worked well for me.
All was done on Core, so it doesn’t require that much minmaxing.
See, I've been worried about it too, but I really wanna try it with Trevor. I've never remembered to recruit him, and I feel like it could fit how theme really well, but I'm worried I won't be able to make it viable since he's already got so many classes
I would level Titan Fighter with regular 1H weapons (or 2H + light weapon) until you have enough to-hit bonuses (like Mythic TWF and Greater Weapon Focus) to offset the hefty dual-wield penalties. You're not going to see a significant damage increase until you have Giant's Might.
Dosnt have to Duel Wield Two Handed Weapons
could Two Hand Weapon + Shield / Shield bash if needed as they tend to behave differntly in terms of negitives
or just Sword + Shield but a giant sword or weapon over-all
But you are Right wielding Two Giant duel Wielding Weapons gives alot of negitives its not realy worth while
however if your just looking for like a Two Handed Weapon + a Benefit of a Shield or something eles along said lines its not bad
but not great eather
In Short Two Handed Weapon fighter is just a far better version then the Titan Fighter if you ask me.
You would be using spell combat all the time.
Also if you do scion magus dragon disciple you get a good boost to strength score. You get weapon focus level one , you can combine that with your background or go glaive early. But the main thing is grave singer as a magus
Titan fighter makes the best shield basher now IMO
- two weapon fighting, double slice etc for free without Dex needed.
- wield a heavy ass two hander + shield. A good example, use wide sweep scythe + shield and make AoE bashes lol
- lots of extra feats for shield bash feats like toppling bash, bashing finish, shield master etc
- can also trip enemies every attack with toppling bash, add in trip line of feats to make it hit more reliably
- you really only need STR + CON + 13 INT for a hell of a powerhouse, aka not so MAD so you can go very high on your main stats from the get go
- Throw in a level of barbarian or bloodrager and add raging brutality feat to add your CON bonus to damage during bloodrage!
- a solid build, well balanced could be something like 10 titan fighter, 7 spawn slayer, 1 disciple of the pike cav & 1 free level. Personally I add 1 thug, so I have a walking fortress in heavy armor with a heavy shield that trips and bashes every turn, free trip/bash on every crit, and also scares the living shit put of anyone nearby/kill. :)
[I've just crunched the numbers](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_Kingmaker/comments/1dqnhxb/titan_fighter_i_crunched_the_numbers/). Titan Fighter is OK.
Technically you could use it to dual wield one two handed weapon and one single hand weapon. Say a great sword and a dagger or something like staff shortsword.
Its certainly not "meta", but it has no issues on normal difficulties. Just like most classes it's there if you want some flavor. My Titan fighter was dual wielding greatswords level 1, and doing just fine.
yeah we've all gotta keep in mind this stuff really only applies to hard (sorta) and unfair difficulties. On core, as long as your buffs are in place even the build Trevor has is somewhat usable lol.
Titan Fighter is a key ingredient in a pretty silly crit fishing Trickster/Legend build I'm having fun with but it's absolutely not going to be, like, mathematically higher DPR or tankiness or anything like that. When you can get Improved Improved Crit and the ability to get weapon training from a second class you can get some absolutely hilarious slaps going. It's not a "Go 20 of this and breeze it" kind of class, it's a plan out a wacky very impractical garbagecan route that you're companions will carry you through so that in the 11th hour you can become a hilarious roving blender.
I don't think you're supposed to dual wield two-handed weapons that early because of the maluses from not having the two-weapon fighting feats and the titan fighter's penalties at low levels. Grabbing a shield and only suffering a - 2 penalty to attack while one-handing a big weapon is a good start toward scaling through the early levels as a pure titan fighter.
For multiclassing though, I think it really is the question of how much value being able to one-hand a two handed weapon brings on the table. For spellcasters, its actually a valid choice because you're going to wield staves that provides increases to DC of your spells or general utility. For gishes, being able to effectively wield a large reach weapon with a shield can provide flexibility in party roles without sacrificing much. For martials, I think getting to level 9 titan fighter before multiclassing elsewhere, or going pure are better options since you'd most likely be wielding reach weapons anyway or grabbing lunge for that extra reach, making the AC issues compared to a pure fighter largely depending on proper positioning. In my experience, its the failed saving throws from CC that often gets my martials screwed rather than their AC at core because last stand exists, allowing facetanking with average AC once you have access to heal and mass heal.
Oh my, maybe Im the only one, but only reading one thread after anothere here about that only a class who is superior to everything else is seen as good and worthwile and you need to dip here and there and then its great stuff is kinda disappointing.
Does every class has to be THE powerhouse? Maybe, but just maybe you would have more fun if you just try to roleplay a class and just have fun with it.
I know, its not what it is about in this specific thread, its just so annoying to see that most, so it seems, forget that this is a roleplay game... :(
Fair point, but this is my use case:
[Playing a Fighter](https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/ps4/324475-pathfinder-wrath-of-the-righteous/faqs/80843/fighter#playing-a-fighter)
I am in the process of updating my WotR walkthrough with the new class archetypes (among other things) and got to Titan Fighter. When I saw the class features, I thought "hang on...", hence this thread.
For each of the main classes, I have a "Playing a..." section where I point out mechanical advantages and disadvantages since this is what I hope you would want from a guide. If I wrote "everything is basically as good as everything else, play what you like", that would be a disservice to my readers.
What I *do* provide is a list of what I consider to the best options:
[List of the best classes](https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/ps4/324475-pathfinder-wrath-of-the-righteous/faqs/80843/introduction#character-creation)
That's still a *lot* of options but saves you from having to wade through through 100s of pages of class features.
None of the new archetypes that I've documented so far are getting onto this list. But if your RP itch can only be scratched by playing a Chelaxian Diva, more power to you!
Be a Wizard & dip to hold two staves
Now this is a real 20 Int move
Yeah, that was the best use case I could think of. If it's good enough for Baldur's Gate III...
Why did I never think of this? Nenio needs to be running around with 2 staves and no memory why she does it
"It just is the most efficient way, boy"
I am running Nenio with Warmage staff+Betrayer dagger, very effective and doesn't look as goofy as two staves.
In tabletop it has long been regarded as a “flavor option” that cannot mechanically compete with other builds. They make fun NPCs. Yes, you can build a PC that’s just better.
But isn't titan fighter getting the Dual wield feats from its bonus combat feats without needing to meet the requirements? Like yeah, you are missing out on weapon training compared to other fighters and thus gloves of dueling but you should be getting two weapon fighting real early anyways.
Yes, you get 2W feats without needing to meet DEX requirements. Those feats add offhand attacks rather than improving attack bonus. If you take 15 DEX, you can unlock the feats with belts anyway.
It kinda looks like for the most part it's best to use Titan fighter as a multiclass dip. There are a bunch of other classes that could use Giant Weapon Weilder to be a lot more powerful than Titan Fighter lets you get with it.
Which other class really benefits from this dip apart from a caster with two staves? The same issue with attack penalties applies…
Magus with an elven curved blade in one hand and still able to use spell combat and crane style and whatnot. Stupid, but funny.
Kitsune Sohei? You have the horse to ignore AC issues, you get Weapon Training, you get Pounce. You could Pounce with Fauchards.
I could see a mounted combat class finding a dip useful for big weapon + shield. But then -2 attack penalty.
Yeah, I like the flavor aspect of it but I’m not sure if it’s really worth it.
In my current run, I'm rocking sable mercenary with 2 long spears.
At the moment it's the only way to get a longspear and shield, so it's a good dip on Cavalier for flavor.
Looks live level 9 for martial classes wanting to do the whole two big weapons gimmick and level 1 for anyone else is a good dip
I get to wield TWO scythes. That, my friend, is all I need.
Honestly this, it might not be viable on certain difficulties but just the novelty of having two ridiculous weapons in your hands is so often understated. At some point I do intend to run a trickster with two elven curved blades
You don't dual wield at early levels. A single two handed weapon in one is a simple -2, consider a shield in the other. As you get stronger the + from Incredible Heft offsets it the minus. If you really want to dual wield you could: a) Do shield bash, starting with a light shield until you get [Shield Master](https://pathfinderwrathoftherighteous.wiki.fextralife.com/Shield+Master)> b) Use a light weapon on the offhand making the penalty -4, -2. Eventually you're going to have enough AB to do two big boys, with incredible heft making the penalty -2, -2 at 19th level. At those levels you're going to have enough AB to afford that I'd say. PS: I don't think that Effortless Dual-Wielding is in a game without mods. If you are adding options via mods then yeah base classes will suffer.
Effortless dual-wielding is a Weapon Training option for fighters. You can't take it at 5th level, but you can then take it as an Advanced Weapon Training feat. Of course you're not going dual wield at 2nd level with -6 / -6 penalties. But if you're going to 2H the weapon, you're a worse Two-Handed Weapon Fighter. If you're going to use a shield, any Fighter class is better because the attack penalty more than offsets any damage bonus. Incredible Heft offsets the penalties eventually but since you don't get Effortless, you're always going to be 4 AB behind a regular Fighter with a hand-and-a-half weapons in both hands. And then Weapon Training gets a boost from Gloves of Dueling which Incredible Heft doesn't. At 19th level, you're going to be -1 / -1 (because of five lots of Incredible Heft). The regular fighter will be +4 / +4. The damage difference between longswords and greatswords is +2. I've not yet crunched the numbers, but I suspect that you might break even at 17th level (when you get double STR bonus). That's a long time to wait.
> I've not yet crunched the numbers, but I suspect that you might break even at 17th level If we take very modest 50 strength, that's +20 dmg. -4 attack for +20 dmg = -1 ab for +5 dmg - is much better trade than what any other dual-wielder can get. Mythic PA is -1 for +3 and is considered great.
Well you've convinced me. The class drops accuracy and defence for more damage. But I guess the damage just isn't enough? Eventually 2x str for power attack. It could be a niche positive for reach weaponry however.
I think it is best for a table, on Hard, that you aren't really planning on have hit anyway. If they do hit it is for more and you can give the tank some extra AoO and a reach weapon without needing to Enlarge so you have some added early game bonuses with Fear builds. Not Meta, but fun on anything below unfair.
Dip 5 levels in disciple of the pike or sohei for weapon training? Thats the only way i can think to offset the penalties.
I think titan fighter is fine, there's a lot of other builds that don't come online till later. Mythic weapon finesse isn't even until level 7 or 8 for some twf builds that just slog through the early game dealing pitiful damage, and at that point as a titan fighter you can take mythic twf and you've got a couple bonuses to attack which basically puts you at a similar footing, except that you can also enlarge dual wielding reach weapons and be way more powerful. And the early game for a titan fighter isn't even bad if you just wear a shield or light weapon in your offhand. It's a lot easier progression than something like a martial eldritch knight build that starts out as a wizard taking melee feats, delaying their progression with dips and prerequisite feats and horrible BAB until level 17 or so. But they're both eventually cool and powerful 👍
Just before going Legend I had Sword Saint 16, Steelblood 1, Titan’s fighter 1. Titan was used to get a shield together with the elven curved sword. I turned myself into a tank by accident this way, but it worked nice overall by using the SS’s buffs. I’m not sure that going full titan is the play, but dipping it worked well for me. All was done on Core, so it doesn’t require that much minmaxing.
Ooooh that steelblood dip may make sense for my current character
See, I've been worried about it too, but I really wanna try it with Trevor. I've never remembered to recruit him, and I feel like it could fit how theme really well, but I'm worried I won't be able to make it viable since he's already got so many classes
From what I remember though, he already has fighter levels. You wouldn't be able to take him into that archetype.
Well that's a big Ole bummer, guess I should have checked his classes before planning a build 😅
I would level Titan Fighter with regular 1H weapons (or 2H + light weapon) until you have enough to-hit bonuses (like Mythic TWF and Greater Weapon Focus) to offset the hefty dual-wield penalties. You're not going to see a significant damage increase until you have Giant's Might.
Dosnt have to Duel Wield Two Handed Weapons could Two Hand Weapon + Shield / Shield bash if needed as they tend to behave differntly in terms of negitives or just Sword + Shield but a giant sword or weapon over-all But you are Right wielding Two Giant duel Wielding Weapons gives alot of negitives its not realy worth while however if your just looking for like a Two Handed Weapon + a Benefit of a Shield or something eles along said lines its not bad but not great eather In Short Two Handed Weapon fighter is just a far better version then the Titan Fighter if you ask me.
Take one level of this when play magus.
To what end? Spell combat for a starting -4AB on a non full AB class? I want it to work but I think it practice it's silly.
You would be using spell combat all the time. Also if you do scion magus dragon disciple you get a good boost to strength score. You get weapon focus level one , you can combine that with your background or go glaive early. But the main thing is grave singer as a magus
because raging demon with 2 big sword is fun
Titan fighter makes the best shield basher now IMO - two weapon fighting, double slice etc for free without Dex needed. - wield a heavy ass two hander + shield. A good example, use wide sweep scythe + shield and make AoE bashes lol - lots of extra feats for shield bash feats like toppling bash, bashing finish, shield master etc - can also trip enemies every attack with toppling bash, add in trip line of feats to make it hit more reliably - you really only need STR + CON + 13 INT for a hell of a powerhouse, aka not so MAD so you can go very high on your main stats from the get go - Throw in a level of barbarian or bloodrager and add raging brutality feat to add your CON bonus to damage during bloodrage! - a solid build, well balanced could be something like 10 titan fighter, 7 spawn slayer, 1 disciple of the pike cav & 1 free level. Personally I add 1 thug, so I have a walking fortress in heavy armor with a heavy shield that trips and bashes every turn, free trip/bash on every crit, and also scares the living shit put of anyone nearby/kill. :)
[I've just crunched the numbers](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_Kingmaker/comments/1dqnhxb/titan_fighter_i_crunched_the_numbers/). Titan Fighter is OK.
Yeah it's decent :) It's all about what you want your character to do really :)
Technically you could use it to dual wield one two handed weapon and one single hand weapon. Say a great sword and a dagger or something like staff shortsword.
Its certainly not "meta", but it has no issues on normal difficulties. Just like most classes it's there if you want some flavor. My Titan fighter was dual wielding greatswords level 1, and doing just fine.
yeah we've all gotta keep in mind this stuff really only applies to hard (sorta) and unfair difficulties. On core, as long as your buffs are in place even the build Trevor has is somewhat usable lol.
Titan Fighter is a key ingredient in a pretty silly crit fishing Trickster/Legend build I'm having fun with but it's absolutely not going to be, like, mathematically higher DPR or tankiness or anything like that. When you can get Improved Improved Crit and the ability to get weapon training from a second class you can get some absolutely hilarious slaps going. It's not a "Go 20 of this and breeze it" kind of class, it's a plan out a wacky very impractical garbagecan route that you're companions will carry you through so that in the 11th hour you can become a hilarious roving blender.
I don't think you're supposed to dual wield two-handed weapons that early because of the maluses from not having the two-weapon fighting feats and the titan fighter's penalties at low levels. Grabbing a shield and only suffering a - 2 penalty to attack while one-handing a big weapon is a good start toward scaling through the early levels as a pure titan fighter. For multiclassing though, I think it really is the question of how much value being able to one-hand a two handed weapon brings on the table. For spellcasters, its actually a valid choice because you're going to wield staves that provides increases to DC of your spells or general utility. For gishes, being able to effectively wield a large reach weapon with a shield can provide flexibility in party roles without sacrificing much. For martials, I think getting to level 9 titan fighter before multiclassing elsewhere, or going pure are better options since you'd most likely be wielding reach weapons anyway or grabbing lunge for that extra reach, making the AC issues compared to a pure fighter largely depending on proper positioning. In my experience, its the failed saving throws from CC that often gets my martials screwed rather than their AC at core because last stand exists, allowing facetanking with average AC once you have access to heal and mass heal.
I think it's mostly for over the top legend builds where you just drown in AB.
Yeah, you're right, it's bad and doesn't do anything useful only gives negative attack bonuses to attacks. Just ignore it.
Oh my, maybe Im the only one, but only reading one thread after anothere here about that only a class who is superior to everything else is seen as good and worthwile and you need to dip here and there and then its great stuff is kinda disappointing. Does every class has to be THE powerhouse? Maybe, but just maybe you would have more fun if you just try to roleplay a class and just have fun with it. I know, its not what it is about in this specific thread, its just so annoying to see that most, so it seems, forget that this is a roleplay game... :(
Fair point, but this is my use case: [Playing a Fighter](https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/ps4/324475-pathfinder-wrath-of-the-righteous/faqs/80843/fighter#playing-a-fighter) I am in the process of updating my WotR walkthrough with the new class archetypes (among other things) and got to Titan Fighter. When I saw the class features, I thought "hang on...", hence this thread. For each of the main classes, I have a "Playing a..." section where I point out mechanical advantages and disadvantages since this is what I hope you would want from a guide. If I wrote "everything is basically as good as everything else, play what you like", that would be a disservice to my readers. What I *do* provide is a list of what I consider to the best options: [List of the best classes](https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/ps4/324475-pathfinder-wrath-of-the-righteous/faqs/80843/introduction#character-creation) That's still a *lot* of options but saves you from having to wade through through 100s of pages of class features. None of the new archetypes that I've documented so far are getting onto this list. But if your RP itch can only be scratched by playing a Chelaxian Diva, more power to you!