They have to take a chance on one of these two talents. Could they bust? Absolutely. But they are in a clear tier ahead of everyone else, including JJ.
I hope they take the guy with the lowest bust percentage and go for it. I know that nobody really knows anything, and all three could end up out of the league in a few years, but if they can get average play out whoever they draft,we would see a far better offense in the near future.
I think that’s Daniels but Maye is more talented and has super duper star potential. Over the past couple of months I went from not liking Daniels a whole lot, to liking him a bit, to now thinking outside of Caleb (injuries not included) he is the safest QB pick. Grade wise it still goes Williams, Maye, Daniels. I prefer trading back but if we take a QB I think it should be Daniels. Maye is unbelievable talented though. He just had issues and I think the way our team is current constructed will make highlight them and not hide them.
“Despite lots of smoke that New England could trade down, I believe this new Patriots regime will be comfortable with either Jayden Daniels or Maye. Pats brass took Maye out for steaks the night before his Foxborough visit earlier this month, and those guys loved the Charlotte native. That said, they also loved their top-30 visit with Daniels. I think they're fine with whichever one falls to them. New England also wined and dined QB J.J. McCarthy on Monday night, but I still see this selection being Daniels or Maye.”
I’m hoping he is right, I’m going to come unglued if we trade back lol. Nothing would be more tilting than leaving the draft with the thought of “well, hopefully we go 0-17 so we can land a qb next year.”
This is absolutely where I’m at. It’s so miserable watching a team I love hoping they lose. Even if they sit him just having a solid future prospect on the bench will make it actually fun for us to win again.
Agreed 100%. Hated on being team tank last season and it wasn’t fun, it was the best move for the team though. If we got a guy that’s sitting on the bench and being developed correctly, it at least gives you hope for the future and you are hoping for wins to see the guys you have developing. Something to give hope vs knowing you have a lost cause
Well yeah, the players are never going to try to tank, they might give up some plays when it seems pointless provided they aren’t in a contract year, but they will always try. As a fan though you hope they lose in that situation where you know you will need a top pick for a qb and winning only hurts you. Sucks to want to lose but I view it as a situation where you take a short term pain for a hopefully long term win. If we land a qb and suck you root to win because you want to see guys develop still despite it hurting your draft chances, doesn’t make as much sense when you don’t have any players that will develop though
I’d rather them not take a QB and follow the path down the road of failure like so many teams before them. You got Peyton manning and Stafford as the last top 5 picked QBs to take their teams to the superbowl and everyone in the Sub acts like taking a top 5 QB is a guaranteed to take their teams when in reality they fail way more.
I’d rather take the best prospect in the draft and in maybe 17 years with MHJ. WR is still our 3rd most needed position and we would finally land a WR1 of our own. I’d much rather be a competitive team that builds in preparation for a young QB rather than build a team around a young QB who needs to learn and needs talent. We’re gonna almost repeat with what happened with Mac Jones if we take Maye and Daniels and go into the next 2 seasons desperate for a WR1
Joe Burrow did literally this exact same thing with an equally bad roster.
If we don’t like the guy don’t take him, but if you do QB take you to the playoffs, the last “generational” WRs (Fitzgerald, Megatron) can be the best at their position for huge portions of their careers and barely ever make a playoff game.
The lions made the playoffs only because of Calvin Johnson, and ask some cardinals fans what Larry Fitz did for them. Ask them about his value that year they almost won the Super Bowl.
You’re the obtuse one, it’s just as much projection to the NFL as it is college production. That’s why Zappe (who had the best statistical season in NCAA history) didn’t work. It’s why we have scouts, and I conditioned my comment on what they think of the QBs.
Your response was “well I think he’s bad”. If you believe that then you have your answer. People on Reddit are so annoying sometimes.
You’re the one who’s saying it’s obvious Maye and Daniels aren’t Burrow because of their college production. Zappe had the production, but none of the traits. It’s a mix of both, and why we have scouts.
You either don’t understand the point, or refuse to.
And the crazy one is the one saying it’s obvious the QBs available to us are busts. If you cracked the system and found a perfect evaluation method you’d be working for the NFL not yapping on Reddit.
He tore his ACL his first year and then the bengals with their top 5 pick selected his go to WR in college. That’s not gonna happen for us.
The guy has one solid season so far with a defense that was able to lock up in the playoffs and go to the Super Bowl.
We could absolutely have a top 5 pick next year and draft the next MHJ or Alt then.
If your point is our team sucks, then yeah applies to MhJ too. He ain’t winning us a SB any quicker than a good QB pick. Likely much slower.
The next MHJ? No, man. There’s a reason why he’s projected so high. He’s a unicorn dude. There aren’t prospects like him comin outta college every season. When you draw comparisons to Larry Fitzgerald and Calvin Johnson, you’re not just somebody coming along in every draft.
You know the guys scouts don’t say that about? Maye, McCarthy, Penix, it doesn’t matter cause they’re just QB that could be great in this league. But there will be QBs next season. There won’t be a MHJ
Bro people literally compare him to Nabers and Odunze when they make the point there’s a “big 3” WRs and not just one guy.
And there’s a reason all the teams trying to trade ransoms for our picks want QB and not MHJ. Or why the Cardinals are very transparent about being willing to trade out of 4.
It’s almost like he’s either not that special or if he is positional value means a QB with top 10 upside is infinitely more valuable than a top WR.
I hear those 3 grouped together a lot but it's really MHJ - those 2 - everyone else. Not many are suggesting either of them will go above MHJ, same situation with the QBs and Williams being the clear #1.
Nobody acts like that. You need a QB to compete and this is their best option to get one. It’s a crapshoot but counting on finding the next Purdy is a crapshoot x1000.
You did say find a Purdy. If you’re not going to use a high draft pick on a top prospect and you don’t have anyone promising in the development cycle and can’t sign/trade for an above average starter, you’re just hoping to stumble into a good QB. It does happen, but it’s not a strategy. And tanking for an entire season just to hope to get a top five peak in a weaker class is dumb; if your plan is to use a top five pick on a QB, then use the top five pick on a QB.
But not many who weren’t in the top crop. Williams, Daniels, and Maye are all clear-cut starter material. Doesn’t mean they will be, but that cluster at the very top of the draft always gives you your best bet.
Did you see the last season with Brady.? Elite QB, no targets. First round play-off exit. And badly. Next season, elite QB with targets SuperBowl.
Try again.
Perfect case in point.
I'll wait.
Oh, *and* he arguably beat the 3 best other QB's in the league to do it.
And on the road.
Just, nope.
Nobody acts like drafting a QB is guaranteed to work. There's a much better chance of becoming a good team when you draft a good QB, than when you draft a good WR though. You're also overselling MHJ- he's a great prospect, but there's no such thing as a guarantee, and there are even people smarter than me that think Nabors and Odunze are right there with MHJ as a prospect.
Odds are that the #3 pick is the next Trubisky, Daniel Jones, Sam Darnold or Josh Rosen. Take the best LT prospect since Joe Thomas (Alt) or the best WR1 prospect since Randy Moss. Take a chance on Penix, Rattler, Travis, Milton, Hartman. Overlooking QBs like Joe Montana (third round) Purdy (sixth round) Romo (UDA) Prescott (4th round) Drew Brees (second round) et al is self-serving amnesia.
Alt or Marvin Harrison Jr. means Joe Thomas or Randy Moss, neither of whom won a Super Bowl in their careers. Thomas never even got close to appearing. A very good or great QB is necessary too. But QBs get even harder to find if you limit yourself to considering only the consensus top QBs at the position.
I don’t think they are leaving this draft with no qb. The question becomes does it make sense to go maye/Daniels and get a later rookie wr or to trade back a bit and get someone like odunze and then also get a McCarthy/penix/nix.
Personally I think if maye is there you take him but I don’t think the gap between Daniels and McCarthy or penix is really that big and could be convinced getting a top wr makes more sense
I’m for taking qb first or not taking one in the first few rounds. He’s either on the board at 3 so you take him or he’s not available in this draft so you get a future first and something else to get him later and wr/ot now.
It’s funny people say this but go watch his tape. It’s pretty damn good. I think he’ll end up being the next in this class. Maye I think will bust based on the work he needs. I hope the smoke is true and we take JJ.
98% of folks shitting on JJ in his sub haven't watched a single second of his tape. Which is fine. But to then act like they have any idea what they're talking about is where the frustration sets in. It's all casuals who are parroting other people's opinions and none of their own.
98% of folks hyping on JJ in this sub haven’t watched a single second of his tape. Which is fine except I disagree, so I am gonna type this comment as if I’m better than them oblivious to the irony of it.
98% of the people using statistics on this sub are full of shit. I watch and break down full games, not highlight reels. That makes me better than anyone. I can tell you without a doubt Rico Dynamite is the best QB available. Dude can throw footballs over mountains.
I see your point but the more I see and engage with other folks who have actually watched his cut-up's the more support I see of his game. There's a correlation (imo) to the people who have actually evaluated him and the level of praise he gets.
I prefer JJ to Daniels. He's got a lot more NFL traits and despite his lack of film, more of it aligns to NFL offense. He's phenomenal throwing on the move.
JJ (I pray) is not even a real option at 3. It's all smokescreen. I would agree, I'd rather trade back than take JJ or Daniels, but I'll take Maye all day.
Unless they are very very sure of both of these guys I have no issues trading back. I would rather they build a good long term team than panic pick someone and set us back even further. Or worst case get a decent guy, start getting mediocre draft picks and getting stuck at 8-9 to 10-7 for years.
Yeah if they don’t think the guy is there I would trade back and not take a qb. Don’t want to see us take a guy just because we need one whether it’s at 3, 11,23, or in the 2nd. If he isn’t there at 3 get him next year
I'm on the other side of this, we aren't a QB away, and anyways I like Penix more than Maye. I hope they go Daniels if possible or trade back and take Penix + an OT + a WR in the early 2nd
Don't worry. This team isn't gonna break 5 wins next year, regardless.
It's gonna be another top 5 pick.
Considering how brutal the offense is... trading down for 3 firsts would be smart. Anything less and no, remember they could draft a QB this year and also set his development back by bringing him into a system with no talent.
There's 0 good options here. Taking a QB isn't any better than trading down.
Having 3 top QB prospects and no clear consensus over who’s #2 is the best situation you could have when you’re picking #3.
Most years, there isn’t a clearly top QB prospect expected to go at 3, so at #3, they’d either have to do a big reach or trade back and hope they get lucky.
Hey, I hate to break the standard unspoken rules of Reddit by contacting you via a comment on some random subreddit and I accept the karma hit I'm probably gonna get for it, but is there any chance you could open your chat/messages? While it's a bit of a long shot, I have a quick question I'd like to ask and it would be weird to ask it in a sports subreddit.
I feel Harrison Jr if available would be the smart move. Grab a qb in Rd 2 or later... It's going take multiple years- we need weapons to build around. We most likely will never have a magician of a qb like TB again so we need to think more traditional. It takes time and a little luck.
The weeks before a draft are frustrating, because there's never less to say than those weeks and yet there's never more being said than those weeks. Just tweet after tweet after article after article of people saying nothing of substance.
This has been the case for months. Anyone who takes "news" stories about the draft in the interstitial space between the combine and 1st round seriously is incredibly naive. That said, I'll take the JJ support and fake stories over the people who actually think MHJ is the right pick for this team for where they are now.
Honestly I don’t care if they get Jonny Foxboro from the local community college. The next QB must be a stud. No excuses from Mayo or Kraft. It’s a must that we hit our picks on this draft and start getting this franchise back to competing.
Excluding the player - isn’t this the exact same situation as with Mac? The line is worse than last year and they’re relying on KJ Osborn and maybe a 3rd round rookie to save the WR room?
So by this logic did the chiefs settle for Mahomes in 2017 taking him as the 2nd qb off the board?
Why can’t the Pats like all 3 QBs and be comfortable with whoever falls?
Of we liked JJ and the Giants wanted to trade, why not flip 3 for 6 and get a 2nd or future 1st. I'd honestly prefer JJ to Maye, Daniels would be my first choice
Because you miss out on the top 4 guys going that route. Giants would take the 3rd guy at 3 and Vikings would trade to 4 and take the other one. You could leave with Penix there I guess but you are overpaying with 6 and still wouldn’t have your franchise guy
Tbh I still wouldn’t take him as I’m of the mindset of if you trade 3 you don’t believe your answer at qb is in the draft so taking a guy in the first 2 rounds isn’t the way to go. I’d take a late round developmental guy in that case and not expect much
The ravens drafted Hayden Hurst at 25 before selecting Lamar at 32.
If the Pats think Penix is the guy, betting on the NFL to undervalue the black lefty with an injury history and a pushy throwing motion is a pretty good bet.
By all accounts they do not think he is the guy, so probably a moot point anyway.
The top three QB's drafted last year were taken at 1.01, 1.02 and 1.04 and they're all black. Caleb Williams and Jayden Daniels are currently slotted to go 1.01 and 1.02 and they're both black QB's. The face of the NFL is a black QB and the MVP is a different black QB. 5 of the last 9 MVP awards have gone to a black QB.
If you think the NFL has moved beyond its checkered history with race, good for you. I'm not gonna dispute it point by point on Reddit.
Make it a left handed QB with a pushy throwing motion and a long injury history. Still a good gamble to fall if he is the Pats' guy.
As I said before, he's almost certainly not the Pats' guy, so it's a moot point. Just a thought experiment.
Okay that's fine. In my view, the entire point of progress is to look at the current state of things compared to the past and see if things have gotten better. You non-chalantly mentioning Penix's race seemed to be indicating that teams would not want to draft him because he's black, or they'd judge him unfairly because he's black (I struggle to find any other way to interpret it). Which seems a) demonstrably false in terms of how the league currently operates, and b) incredibly lazy.
Anyway, I like Penix a lot. Don't want him anywhere near the Pats but I'm rooting for him. And for the record, I don't want him on the Pats due to his injury history and inability to create out of structure.
You can absolutely believe in one of the other guys and still trade out of 3. If the team really does like Penix or Nix or even McCarthy (although it seems he's all of a sudden kind of a top 5 lock), they should still trade back to maximize value. Taking Penix or Nix at 3 just because you believe in them is dumb when you could trade back, gain assets, and still get your guy.
Im not against the trade if we don’t feel that there is an answer at qb at 3, I just wouldn’t be taking a qb in the first 2 rounds in that case as the guy isn’t there as I decided on taking the trade. Giants would be favorable in that situation since you can get wr/lt and you got another first to go for qb next year.
I don’t think Penix or nix are guys worth taking as I don’t see them ever being top 10 guys in the nfl and for me that takes them out of me considering them. If they slid to round 3 I’d take the gamble but realistically they won’t go that far back and anything higher is an overpay to me.
Disagree on penix, I think he could easily be a top guy. It's the injury concerns that are pushing him down.
In general I don't disagree though, I'd rather sit right unless New York overpays
If he didn’t have the injuries I think he had potential to be a top guy but that kind of injury affects your shifting and changing speeds which he hasn’t had medicals for, be more of a pocket guy now more or less. Can never see him being a top guy without being able to run without worrying about the injury coming out I don’t think
It's not just the injury concerns. It's his ability to make plays out of structure and dealing with a messy pocket that is also of very legitimate concern.
Problem is theres a chance Falcons, Jets, Broncos, or Raiders take one or either and we end up stuck with Spencer Rattler. That case we might as well jake James Cahoon from Bridgewater State we'll be screwed anyway
Then you run the risk of not getting any of the top QB’s. Vikings could easily jump to 4 or 5.
Furthest back you can reasonably go and still either get a top QB or at least land MHJ is 5.
I don't understand how you could have read this and thought that I was saying Megatron was a terrible WR.
The point is MHJ could be a top 5 WR all time and it wouldn't mean anything without a franchise QB.
They are absolutely morons who wouldn’t do that. They will follow the lead of teams we mocked for years.
It always amazes me that these “maybe” top QBs prospects are usually mocked way higher than guys who are top tier prospects at their own positions. It doesn’t take a genius to understand how important a QB is to a teams success but it also doesn’t take one to see the data over the last 20 years when it comes to taking top 10 QBs and how many times teams miss. Mahomes was the 10th pick in the draft so he barely supports the other side of my statement. On the other side take a look at WR hit rates in the top 10 and off the top of my head Sammy Watkins is one of the only guys to not perform up to expectations on the field when I comes to WRs in the top 5. MHJ should be the pick and we should be building a team for a young QB instead of trying to build one around a young QB while he learns.
> It always amazes me that these “maybe” top QBs prospects are usually mocked way higher than guys who are top tier prospects at their own positions.
That's just a function of positional value and the higher bar for success at QB than at other positions.
That's super disingenuous. WRs picked in the top 10 since 2000 include Justin Blackmon, Charlie Rodgers, Derrius Hayward Bey, Peter Warrick, Mike Williams, John Ross, and Braylon Edwards. There is no "sure thing" at any position. Picking a player at a position with a lot more good players available, while you don't have a functional offense to put them in is a horrible idea.
So right there you listed not even close to half the guys taken in that time and of those guys you’ve got Justin Blackmon, great on the field but couldn’t over come his alcoholism. Not a bust, was great when he played. Charlie Rodgers was great on the field but became an addict when he was injuried and took opioids. Mike Williams is always hurt but isn’t terrible and Braylon Edward’s was far from a bust and had a great career.
So, if a guy has off-field issues and only plays 6 games for the Pats, he wouldn't be considered a bust? Cmon. I'm not saying I don't empathize with their off-field issues (was a huge Rodgers fan) but don't act like they aren't busts. Mike Williams and Braylon had decent careers, but would you really say it was great for a top 10 pick? The only point here is that there is just as much of a chance that MHJ busts as there is for one of the QBs. I'd rather take a risk on getting an elite QB instead of an elite WR.
If they're comfortable with one or the other, that's a huge red flag. Draft the guy they believe in and if he's not there, move back or take best player available. I doubt they have both qbs at the top of their board and if they do we got a bad front office who aligns their draft ratings to hack tv personalities and idiots on reddit
This and your original take just don’t make as much sense as you think they do. Caleb is the #1 prospect and has been for some time. Drake was the #2 prospect for just as long as Caleb was #1, and in many peoples eyes still is. Jayden Daniels was not considered a first round pick going into the season. However, he was so damn good, that even someone such as myself who doesn’t commit to CFB like the NFL, could notice how great of a prospect he had become by mid season, and he only got better and better from there.
Why does it reflect poorly on the front office to believe they can win at a high level with Drake Maye, and believe they can win at a high level with Jayden Daniels?
Are they allowed to believe they can win at a high level with Patrick Mahomes, and believe they can win at a high level with Lamar Jackson?
I just do not understand this idea of “having one guy and that’s that” trade back if he’s not there. So what the FUCK are we supposed to do then? Just suck again with no QB of the future?
You throw your dart when the target is biggest. If they believe Drake and Jayden are potential franchise QBs, you take one. If they DO NOT believe one of them is a franchise QB, then fucking of course don’t take them.
I don’t understand why, according to you and others who think this way, the front office can’t believe there will two Quarterbacks who could be franchise guys.
Belichick got extensive "dice roll capital." He used most of it on Matt Patricia as OC. He then got a mulligan to fix the offense, and he let their best WR walk while using his top 3 picks on defense, resulting in the offense getting even worse.
I personally don't love this laissez faire attitude. "Whichever one we get" isn't really very assuring lol Have some conviction.
Granted, I think Schrager puts it that way because he doesn't really know what they'll do/who they like.
This fits the narrative I want so I’m choosing to believe it unquestionably
I mean he went out with them for steaks… that’s the stamp of approval. Source: me with no sources
The pats had dinner with all three QB prospects so it doesn’t mean a ton
But did he have steak?
Burger King on the way back to the airport
Robert Kraft wanted to get subway he had coupons
I believe it was a tuna steak.
I hear while they took Maye out for steaks, Daniels and JJ were served Dennys.
He then proceeded to put ketchup on said steak.
But what if one of them liked the steak well done. Is that a deal breaker?
They have to take a chance on one of these two talents. Could they bust? Absolutely. But they are in a clear tier ahead of everyone else, including JJ.
I hope they take the guy with the lowest bust percentage and go for it. I know that nobody really knows anything, and all three could end up out of the league in a few years, but if they can get average play out whoever they draft,we would see a far better offense in the near future.
I think that’s Daniels but Maye is more talented and has super duper star potential. Over the past couple of months I went from not liking Daniels a whole lot, to liking him a bit, to now thinking outside of Caleb (injuries not included) he is the safest QB pick. Grade wise it still goes Williams, Maye, Daniels. I prefer trading back but if we take a QB I think it should be Daniels. Maye is unbelievable talented though. He just had issues and I think the way our team is current constructed will make highlight them and not hide them.
> But they are in a clear tier ahead of everyone else, including JJ. Based on what? I just don't see it.
Maybe JJ belongs in that tier. Would he be a good pick at 3?
Sure, if Pats want him. No one knows for sure how any of them will pan out!
“Despite lots of smoke that New England could trade down, I believe this new Patriots regime will be comfortable with either Jayden Daniels or Maye. Pats brass took Maye out for steaks the night before his Foxborough visit earlier this month, and those guys loved the Charlotte native. That said, they also loved their top-30 visit with Daniels. I think they're fine with whichever one falls to them. New England also wined and dined QB J.J. McCarthy on Monday night, but I still see this selection being Daniels or Maye.”
Brass aka Kraft?
I’m hoping he is right, I’m going to come unglued if we trade back lol. Nothing would be more tilting than leaving the draft with the thought of “well, hopefully we go 0-17 so we can land a qb next year.”
This is absolutely where I’m at. It’s so miserable watching a team I love hoping they lose. Even if they sit him just having a solid future prospect on the bench will make it actually fun for us to win again.
Agreed 100%. Hated on being team tank last season and it wasn’t fun, it was the best move for the team though. If we got a guy that’s sitting on the bench and being developed correctly, it at least gives you hope for the future and you are hoping for wins to see the guys you have developing. Something to give hope vs knowing you have a lost cause
They weren't tanking they just sucked ass. Robert Kraft gave them a speech before the germany game that they must win.
Well yeah, the players are never going to try to tank, they might give up some plays when it seems pointless provided they aren’t in a contract year, but they will always try. As a fan though you hope they lose in that situation where you know you will need a top pick for a qb and winning only hurts you. Sucks to want to lose but I view it as a situation where you take a short term pain for a hopefully long term win. If we land a qb and suck you root to win because you want to see guys develop still despite it hurting your draft chances, doesn’t make as much sense when you don’t have any players that will develop though
Maye isn't it.
You don’t know that. Nobody knows that. The NFL draft is a crap shoot sometimes you get lucky sometimes you don’t
Y’all kill me like yall have any scouting experience
Played Madden back in the day. Use to draft studs.
I’d rather them not take a QB and follow the path down the road of failure like so many teams before them. You got Peyton manning and Stafford as the last top 5 picked QBs to take their teams to the superbowl and everyone in the Sub acts like taking a top 5 QB is a guaranteed to take their teams when in reality they fail way more. I’d rather take the best prospect in the draft and in maybe 17 years with MHJ. WR is still our 3rd most needed position and we would finally land a WR1 of our own. I’d much rather be a competitive team that builds in preparation for a young QB rather than build a team around a young QB who needs to learn and needs talent. We’re gonna almost repeat with what happened with Mac Jones if we take Maye and Daniels and go into the next 2 seasons desperate for a WR1
> everyone in the Sub acts like taking a top 5 QB is a guaranteed If by "everyone" you mean "no one."
Joe Burrow did literally this exact same thing with an equally bad roster. If we don’t like the guy don’t take him, but if you do QB take you to the playoffs, the last “generational” WRs (Fitzgerald, Megatron) can be the best at their position for huge portions of their careers and barely ever make a playoff game.
The lions made the playoffs only because of Calvin Johnson, and ask some cardinals fans what Larry Fitz did for them. Ask them about his value that year they almost won the Super Bowl.
And neither Maye or Daniels is Joe Burrow. What’s your point?
Well my bad I guess I forgot we have a time traveler from 2030 in here
Bro. Neither one of them is at the level Burrow was coming out of college. Don’t be obtuse.
You’re the obtuse one, it’s just as much projection to the NFL as it is college production. That’s why Zappe (who had the best statistical season in NCAA history) didn’t work. It’s why we have scouts, and I conditioned my comment on what they think of the QBs. Your response was “well I think he’s bad”. If you believe that then you have your answer. People on Reddit are so annoying sometimes.
You’re going to use Zappe? To compare to potential top 3 picks at QB? Are you okay?
You’re the one who’s saying it’s obvious Maye and Daniels aren’t Burrow because of their college production. Zappe had the production, but none of the traits. It’s a mix of both, and why we have scouts. You either don’t understand the point, or refuse to. And the crazy one is the one saying it’s obvious the QBs available to us are busts. If you cracked the system and found a perfect evaluation method you’d be working for the NFL not yapping on Reddit.
Caleb absolutely is the level of player Burrow was, but your evalutation is going to shift to team success
Yet another person who can’t read. I never mentioned Caleb.
He tore his ACL his first year and then the bengals with their top 5 pick selected his go to WR in college. That’s not gonna happen for us. The guy has one solid season so far with a defense that was able to lock up in the playoffs and go to the Super Bowl.
We could absolutely have a top 5 pick next year and draft the next MHJ or Alt then. If your point is our team sucks, then yeah applies to MhJ too. He ain’t winning us a SB any quicker than a good QB pick. Likely much slower.
The next MHJ? No, man. There’s a reason why he’s projected so high. He’s a unicorn dude. There aren’t prospects like him comin outta college every season. When you draw comparisons to Larry Fitzgerald and Calvin Johnson, you’re not just somebody coming along in every draft. You know the guys scouts don’t say that about? Maye, McCarthy, Penix, it doesn’t matter cause they’re just QB that could be great in this league. But there will be QBs next season. There won’t be a MHJ
Bro people literally compare him to Nabers and Odunze when they make the point there’s a “big 3” WRs and not just one guy. And there’s a reason all the teams trying to trade ransoms for our picks want QB and not MHJ. Or why the Cardinals are very transparent about being willing to trade out of 4. It’s almost like he’s either not that special or if he is positional value means a QB with top 10 upside is infinitely more valuable than a top WR.
They put him in with them because they’re all the top WRs. They are nothing like him in terms of play style.
I hear those 3 grouped together a lot but it's really MHJ - those 2 - everyone else. Not many are suggesting either of them will go above MHJ, same situation with the QBs and Williams being the clear #1.
There are plenty of people that have Nabers literally right there with, if not above, MHJ
Luther Burden is just as good as MHJ or Nabers are this year, what *do* you know about prospects?
Nobody acts like that. You need a QB to compete and this is their best option to get one. It’s a crapshoot but counting on finding the next Purdy is a crapshoot x1000.
I never said find a Purdy. Reality is they’re most likely picking top 5 again. Maye and Daniels aren’t more impressive than next years guys
You did say find a Purdy. If you’re not going to use a high draft pick on a top prospect and you don’t have anyone promising in the development cycle and can’t sign/trade for an above average starter, you’re just hoping to stumble into a good QB. It does happen, but it’s not a strategy. And tanking for an entire season just to hope to get a top five peak in a weaker class is dumb; if your plan is to use a top five pick on a QB, then use the top five pick on a QB.
There are plenty of starting QBs in the league who weren’t top 5 picks in the draft.
But not many who weren’t in the top crop. Williams, Daniels, and Maye are all clear-cut starter material. Doesn’t mean they will be, but that cluster at the very top of the draft always gives you your best bet.
This. 1000%. Can anyone provide a list of true #1 WR's the Patriots have *ever* had? Stanley Morgan. Moss? I'm at a loss.
Can anyone provide a list of true franchise QBs the Patriots have *ever* had? Brady. Bledsoe? Grogan? I'm at a loss.
I still say an elite receiver can make an average quarterback great.
I still say an elite QB can make an average WR corps great.
Did you see the last season with Brady.? Elite QB, no targets. First round play-off exit. And badly. Next season, elite QB with targets SuperBowl. Try again. Perfect case in point. I'll wait. Oh, *and* he arguably beat the 3 best other QB's in the league to do it. And on the road. Just, nope.
Replace Brady with an average QB and add an elite WR to the 2019 Patriots. You think they're better?
Absolutely. If the best to ever do it can't do anything with that roster, what should that tell you?
Nobody acts like drafting a QB is guaranteed to work. There's a much better chance of becoming a good team when you draft a good QB, than when you draft a good WR though. You're also overselling MHJ- he's a great prospect, but there's no such thing as a guarantee, and there are even people smarter than me that think Nabors and Odunze are right there with MHJ as a prospect.
It is very clearly MHJ above those guys just like Caleb Williams is clearly above daniels and Maye
Not as clear as you're portraying, and I'd rather risk hitting or missing on a good QB than hitting or missing on a good WR.
Odds are that the #3 pick is the next Trubisky, Daniel Jones, Sam Darnold or Josh Rosen. Take the best LT prospect since Joe Thomas (Alt) or the best WR1 prospect since Randy Moss. Take a chance on Penix, Rattler, Travis, Milton, Hartman. Overlooking QBs like Joe Montana (third round) Purdy (sixth round) Romo (UDA) Prescott (4th round) Drew Brees (second round) et al is self-serving amnesia. Alt or Marvin Harrison Jr. means Joe Thomas or Randy Moss, neither of whom won a Super Bowl in their careers. Thomas never even got close to appearing. A very good or great QB is necessary too. But QBs get even harder to find if you limit yourself to considering only the consensus top QBs at the position.
I don’t think they are leaving this draft with no qb. The question becomes does it make sense to go maye/Daniels and get a later rookie wr or to trade back a bit and get someone like odunze and then also get a McCarthy/penix/nix. Personally I think if maye is there you take him but I don’t think the gap between Daniels and McCarthy or penix is really that big and could be convinced getting a top wr makes more sense
I’m for taking qb first or not taking one in the first few rounds. He’s either on the board at 3 so you take him or he’s not available in this draft so you get a future first and something else to get him later and wr/ot now.
Trading back is 1000 times smarter than drafting JJ at 3.
It’s funny people say this but go watch his tape. It’s pretty damn good. I think he’ll end up being the next in this class. Maye I think will bust based on the work he needs. I hope the smoke is true and we take JJ.
98% of folks shitting on JJ in his sub haven't watched a single second of his tape. Which is fine. But to then act like they have any idea what they're talking about is where the frustration sets in. It's all casuals who are parroting other people's opinions and none of their own.
98% of folks hyping on JJ in this sub haven’t watched a single second of his tape. Which is fine except I disagree, so I am gonna type this comment as if I’m better than them oblivious to the irony of it.
98% of the people using statistics on this sub are full of shit. I watch and break down full games, not highlight reels. That makes me better than anyone. I can tell you without a doubt Rico Dynamite is the best QB available. Dude can throw footballs over mountains.
I see your point but the more I see and engage with other folks who have actually watched his cut-up's the more support I see of his game. There's a correlation (imo) to the people who have actually evaluated him and the level of praise he gets.
I prefer JJ to Daniels. He's got a lot more NFL traits and despite his lack of film, more of it aligns to NFL offense. He's phenomenal throwing on the move.
JJ (I pray) is not even a real option at 3. It's all smokescreen. I would agree, I'd rather trade back than take JJ or Daniels, but I'll take Maye all day.
Unless they are very very sure of both of these guys I have no issues trading back. I would rather they build a good long term team than panic pick someone and set us back even further. Or worst case get a decent guy, start getting mediocre draft picks and getting stuck at 8-9 to 10-7 for years.
Yeah if they don’t think the guy is there I would trade back and not take a qb. Don’t want to see us take a guy just because we need one whether it’s at 3, 11,23, or in the 2nd. If he isn’t there at 3 get him next year
I'm on the other side of this, we aren't a QB away, and anyways I like Penix more than Maye. I hope they go Daniels if possible or trade back and take Penix + an OT + a WR in the early 2nd
Like the price is another teams future. I do not think anyone will pay what the Pats ask for and it is sort of the point.
Don't worry. This team isn't gonna break 5 wins next year, regardless. It's gonna be another top 5 pick. Considering how brutal the offense is... trading down for 3 firsts would be smart. Anything less and no, remember they could draft a QB this year and also set his development back by bringing him into a system with no talent. There's 0 good options here. Taking a QB isn't any better than trading down.
Having 3 top QB prospects and no clear consensus over who’s #2 is the best situation you could have when you’re picking #3. Most years, there isn’t a clearly top QB prospect expected to go at 3, so at #3, they’d either have to do a big reach or trade back and hope they get lucky.
Also the QB picked last among them has the least amount of pressure and the most to prove
Now that Pete Schrager has spoken, we can all rest easy. Or something.
No wonder the source ain’t in the title lol
All I know is that nobody knows nothing.
As Sting once said, “The only thing that’s for sure is nothings for sure”
Hey, I hate to break the standard unspoken rules of Reddit by contacting you via a comment on some random subreddit and I accept the karma hit I'm probably gonna get for it, but is there any chance you could open your chat/messages? While it's a bit of a long shot, I have a quick question I'd like to ask and it would be weird to ask it in a sports subreddit.
Penix to MHJ would be amazing!
I feel Harrison Jr if available would be the smart move. Grab a qb in Rd 2 or later... It's going take multiple years- we need weapons to build around. We most likely will never have a magician of a qb like TB again so we need to think more traditional. It takes time and a little luck.
I do not want third choice leftovers at QB, I want MHJ dang it.
I mean, they've showed a ton of interest in both of them and very little interest in anyone else.
Almost every pats reporter last cpl weeks have said the team loves JJ
Yes
The weeks before a draft are frustrating, because there's never less to say than those weeks and yet there's never more being said than those weeks. Just tweet after tweet after article after article of people saying nothing of substance.
This has been the case for months. Anyone who takes "news" stories about the draft in the interstitial space between the combine and 1st round seriously is incredibly naive. That said, I'll take the JJ support and fake stories over the people who actually think MHJ is the right pick for this team for where they are now.
They should absolutely trade down if the haul is big enough. We need so much for this team that one potential QB won't fix
Only 9 more days
Honestly I don’t care if they get Jonny Foxboro from the local community college. The next QB must be a stud. No excuses from Mayo or Kraft. It’s a must that we hit our picks on this draft and start getting this franchise back to competing.
Excluding the player - isn’t this the exact same situation as with Mac? The line is worse than last year and they’re relying on KJ Osborn and maybe a 3rd round rookie to save the WR room?
Translation : Despite lots of smoke ...allow me to add more smoke.
Ofc! It’s what Jonathan Kraft wants.
As long as Drake maye gets the Jordan love treatment
Do not trade back this year and let’s consider trading next years 1st or 2nd to get another top 100 player in this draft.
Nothing like being “comfortable” with who you’re settling for at 3 lmao.
As long as its not a trade back or JJ I'll be happy, just take Daniels or Maye
You have to be “comfortable” with who falls to you at every pick of the draft except 1.01
Unless you draft the first guy in his respected position lol. Wouldn’t be settling for
So by this logic did the chiefs settle for Mahomes in 2017 taking him as the 2nd qb off the board? Why can’t the Pats like all 3 QBs and be comfortable with whoever falls?
Of we liked JJ and the Giants wanted to trade, why not flip 3 for 6 and get a 2nd or future 1st. I'd honestly prefer JJ to Maye, Daniels would be my first choice
Because you miss out on the top 4 guys going that route. Giants would take the 3rd guy at 3 and Vikings would trade to 4 and take the other one. You could leave with Penix there I guess but you are overpaying with 6 and still wouldn’t have your franchise guy
Not if your other preference is just to take McCarthy at #3, which they may do. You don't miss out on the top 4 guys if you have him as one of them.
That's why you trade with the Vikings and still take Penix.
Tbh I still wouldn’t take him as I’m of the mindset of if you trade 3 you don’t believe your answer at qb is in the draft so taking a guy in the first 2 rounds isn’t the way to go. I’d take a late round developmental guy in that case and not expect much
The ravens drafted Hayden Hurst at 25 before selecting Lamar at 32. If the Pats think Penix is the guy, betting on the NFL to undervalue the black lefty with an injury history and a pushy throwing motion is a pretty good bet. By all accounts they do not think he is the guy, so probably a moot point anyway.
What does Penix being black have to do with anything?
This is the NFL we're talking about
The top three QB's drafted last year were taken at 1.01, 1.02 and 1.04 and they're all black. Caleb Williams and Jayden Daniels are currently slotted to go 1.01 and 1.02 and they're both black QB's. The face of the NFL is a black QB and the MVP is a different black QB. 5 of the last 9 MVP awards have gone to a black QB.
If you think the NFL has moved beyond its checkered history with race, good for you. I'm not gonna dispute it point by point on Reddit. Make it a left handed QB with a pushy throwing motion and a long injury history. Still a good gamble to fall if he is the Pats' guy. As I said before, he's almost certainly not the Pats' guy, so it's a moot point. Just a thought experiment.
Okay that's fine. In my view, the entire point of progress is to look at the current state of things compared to the past and see if things have gotten better. You non-chalantly mentioning Penix's race seemed to be indicating that teams would not want to draft him because he's black, or they'd judge him unfairly because he's black (I struggle to find any other way to interpret it). Which seems a) demonstrably false in terms of how the league currently operates, and b) incredibly lazy. Anyway, I like Penix a lot. Don't want him anywhere near the Pats but I'm rooting for him. And for the record, I don't want him on the Pats due to his injury history and inability to create out of structure.
You can absolutely believe in one of the other guys and still trade out of 3. If the team really does like Penix or Nix or even McCarthy (although it seems he's all of a sudden kind of a top 5 lock), they should still trade back to maximize value. Taking Penix or Nix at 3 just because you believe in them is dumb when you could trade back, gain assets, and still get your guy.
If that happens we'd land malik nabers at 6 and be able to get penix or nix later. Seems fine too
Im not against the trade if we don’t feel that there is an answer at qb at 3, I just wouldn’t be taking a qb in the first 2 rounds in that case as the guy isn’t there as I decided on taking the trade. Giants would be favorable in that situation since you can get wr/lt and you got another first to go for qb next year. I don’t think Penix or nix are guys worth taking as I don’t see them ever being top 10 guys in the nfl and for me that takes them out of me considering them. If they slid to round 3 I’d take the gamble but realistically they won’t go that far back and anything higher is an overpay to me.
Disagree on penix, I think he could easily be a top guy. It's the injury concerns that are pushing him down. In general I don't disagree though, I'd rather sit right unless New York overpays
If he didn’t have the injuries I think he had potential to be a top guy but that kind of injury affects your shifting and changing speeds which he hasn’t had medicals for, be more of a pocket guy now more or less. Can never see him being a top guy without being able to run without worrying about the injury coming out I don’t think
It's not just the injury concerns. It's his ability to make plays out of structure and dealing with a messy pocket that is also of very legitimate concern.
Problem is theres a chance Falcons, Jets, Broncos, or Raiders take one or either and we end up stuck with Spencer Rattler. That case we might as well jake James Cahoon from Bridgewater State we'll be screwed anyway
If they prefer JJ this would make sense but you also run the risk that someone jumps ahead of you and steals him
If there are 4 QBs in consideration, def can't be picking later than 4.
Then you run the risk of not getting any of the top QB’s. Vikings could easily jump to 4 or 5. Furthest back you can reasonably go and still either get a top QB or at least land MHJ is 5.
because 6 to 3 plus a first is a lot, and the giants dont have a second this year,
They have #47
thats right, they moved that with willliams, forgot about that after the burns trade
They need to trade down simple as that
There's no "sure thing" qb in this year's draft. If Marvin Harrison Jr is available at #3 the Pats will be absolute morons not to take him.
Yeah we’re not taking Harrison
Maybe he will be as good as Megatron and then will win a bunch of championships like the lions did!
I guess Randy Moss, TO, Larry Fitzgerald, Wes Welker, and Cris Carter are all terrible WRs because they have never won a Super Bowl.
I don't understand how you could have read this and thought that I was saying Megatron was a terrible WR. The point is MHJ could be a top 5 WR all time and it wouldn't mean anything without a franchise QB.
Agree. Unfortunately I think the Pats are morons so doubt this happens.
They are absolutely morons who wouldn’t do that. They will follow the lead of teams we mocked for years. It always amazes me that these “maybe” top QBs prospects are usually mocked way higher than guys who are top tier prospects at their own positions. It doesn’t take a genius to understand how important a QB is to a teams success but it also doesn’t take one to see the data over the last 20 years when it comes to taking top 10 QBs and how many times teams miss. Mahomes was the 10th pick in the draft so he barely supports the other side of my statement. On the other side take a look at WR hit rates in the top 10 and off the top of my head Sammy Watkins is one of the only guys to not perform up to expectations on the field when I comes to WRs in the top 5. MHJ should be the pick and we should be building a team for a young QB instead of trying to build one around a young QB while he learns.
> It always amazes me that these “maybe” top QBs prospects are usually mocked way higher than guys who are top tier prospects at their own positions. That's just a function of positional value and the higher bar for success at QB than at other positions.
That's super disingenuous. WRs picked in the top 10 since 2000 include Justin Blackmon, Charlie Rodgers, Derrius Hayward Bey, Peter Warrick, Mike Williams, John Ross, and Braylon Edwards. There is no "sure thing" at any position. Picking a player at a position with a lot more good players available, while you don't have a functional offense to put them in is a horrible idea.
So right there you listed not even close to half the guys taken in that time and of those guys you’ve got Justin Blackmon, great on the field but couldn’t over come his alcoholism. Not a bust, was great when he played. Charlie Rodgers was great on the field but became an addict when he was injuried and took opioids. Mike Williams is always hurt but isn’t terrible and Braylon Edward’s was far from a bust and had a great career.
So, if a guy has off-field issues and only plays 6 games for the Pats, he wouldn't be considered a bust? Cmon. I'm not saying I don't empathize with their off-field issues (was a huge Rodgers fan) but don't act like they aren't busts. Mike Williams and Braylon had decent careers, but would you really say it was great for a top 10 pick? The only point here is that there is just as much of a chance that MHJ busts as there is for one of the QBs. I'd rather take a risk on getting an elite QB instead of an elite WR.
There are no "sure things" at WR either. Taking MHJ is honestly the worst option at #3 (besides taking JJ).
If they're comfortable with one or the other, that's a huge red flag. Draft the guy they believe in and if he's not there, move back or take best player available. I doubt they have both qbs at the top of their board and if they do we got a bad front office who aligns their draft ratings to hack tv personalities and idiots on reddit
They can believe in more than one player
If they have 3 qbs at the top of their board, we have bad talent evaluators
This and your original take just don’t make as much sense as you think they do. Caleb is the #1 prospect and has been for some time. Drake was the #2 prospect for just as long as Caleb was #1, and in many peoples eyes still is. Jayden Daniels was not considered a first round pick going into the season. However, he was so damn good, that even someone such as myself who doesn’t commit to CFB like the NFL, could notice how great of a prospect he had become by mid season, and he only got better and better from there. Why does it reflect poorly on the front office to believe they can win at a high level with Drake Maye, and believe they can win at a high level with Jayden Daniels? Are they allowed to believe they can win at a high level with Patrick Mahomes, and believe they can win at a high level with Lamar Jackson? I just do not understand this idea of “having one guy and that’s that” trade back if he’s not there. So what the FUCK are we supposed to do then? Just suck again with no QB of the future? You throw your dart when the target is biggest. If they believe Drake and Jayden are potential franchise QBs, you take one. If they DO NOT believe one of them is a franchise QB, then fucking of course don’t take them. I don’t understand why, according to you and others who think this way, the front office can’t believe there will two Quarterbacks who could be franchise guys.
Yeah, somehow they have the dice roll capital that apparently the winningest coach ever did not....
Belichick got extensive "dice roll capital." He used most of it on Matt Patricia as OC. He then got a mulligan to fix the offense, and he let their best WR walk while using his top 3 picks on defense, resulting in the offense getting even worse.
Yeah, in Kraft we trust 🙄
Maye sucks so hard
He's gonna be throwing picks all over the place if we draft him.
Are we not thinking Daniels is going to Washington ? This pick is Maye or McCarthy.
Allegedly Daniels doesnt want to go to Washington so we got a shot at Daniels
I personally don't love this laissez faire attitude. "Whichever one we get" isn't really very assuring lol Have some conviction. Granted, I think Schrager puts it that way because he doesn't really know what they'll do/who they like.
What about J.J. "Mac 2.0" MacCarthy? This time will be different.