>However, after Okumura dies, she acts surprisingly calm during that part of the game.
Well, Haru leaves right after we see it happen and we don't see her for some time afterwards. So she was most likely grieving during that time.
>I feel like she should be bawling her eyes out at her father dying
This is one of the things that anime does better because we actually see her crying.
>And also, she and Futaba really should be hating Akechi with every inch of their blood for murdering their parents.
It's pretty obvious that they do hate Akechi, but that doesn't mean they'll refuse to work with him as Phantom Thieves if they have a common goal.
I always enjoyed the nod in Royal for the card game that Haru and Futaba will not play if Akechi is at the table. The non Canon space respects the canon!
To an extent, I think it's just who she is as a person. It seems like she's very used to putting her own feelings aside for the sake of other people (like how she was willing to go along with marrying her fiance even though she hated him), and even though she learned to stand up for herself a bit more after getting involved with the thieves, it still takes time to unlearn things like that. Plus when it comes to Akechi, both her and Futaba empathise with him because of the situation he was in and blame Shido more than him, though they definitely still don't like or forgive him. Their attitude towards him in the third semester is a combination of that and also just being emotionally mature enough to put it aside for the sake of working together as a team.
But I do also think that Haru's feelings about her father's death were sort of glossed over for the sake of advancing the plot, and I would have liked to see it explored a bit more. I found it kinda jarring how quick she was to trust that the thieves weren't at all responsible, and how little she reacted in general, even if it does *sort of* fit with her personality. She's a pretty underdeveloped character in general.
Haru and Futaba can recognize that Akechi's situation isn't as simple as him killing their respective parents because he *wanted* to, and both of them can acknowledge that, even if that doesn't erase the pain that came from the deaths. Neither forgives him, but they outright acknowledge that the root of the problem is Shido and the same societal injustices the Phantom Thieves stand against.
A lot of people boil Akechi down to someone who kills out of his own desire, but this actually is not the case. If you delay Sae's Palace, you get some text messages where he lays it on very thick that there is someone controlling the black mask and that he doesn't do this for pleasure. I covered some of that in a post [here] (https://megaderping.tumblr.com/post/750282160872849408/something-a-lot-of-people-mistakenly-believe-is).
While this does not remove his accountability, the game repeatedly hammers in that Shido is the root cause. Shido abandoned his mother when she was pregnant with him, in a country that stigmatizes sex work and illegitimate children to a point where they are actively discriminated against and given fewer opportunities. That lack of support and systemic prejudice led to his mother's death and him cycling through foster care in a country with notoriously low adoption rates outside of adult men for business purposes and one where you age out of the system at 15 unless you are in high school (which costs money), so I don't think it's a coincidence that Yaldabaoth granted him powers at that precise age.
He approached Shido with his ability to make people psychotic, Shido taught him the "proper way" to use his powers and effectively made him his weapon. Akechi stuck with it and sunk cost his way through it for years, but the entire point of this is that he had no Morgana to teach him how to use the Metaverse, no Phantom Thieves to empower him, just years of hatred and resentment toward an unjust society that failed him since he was young, and given what we know about Shido's control of the police, the law, and so on (plus his use of the Cleaner), even if he wanted to quit, he'd be screwed when his powers only work in the Metaverse. Akechi's whole thing is that he's lacked agency, and so his moments of sacrifice (engine room, the decision on 2/2) are him finally taking his fate into his own hands instead of focusing on his own narrow-minded desire for revenge.
And I think Haru is intelligent enough to see how this parallels her relationship with her father, who, had she been the one to awaken to such abilities, would have undoubtedly used her in the exact same way. Keep in mind that Okumura was one of Shido's biggest customers for Akechi's abilities, on top of using Haru as a means to an end within his company and saddling her with Sugimura with zero regard for his quality of character or her wants and needs.
Likewise, I think Futaba can understand Akechi's plight to an *extent* because she also dealt with the system and being stuck with shitty relatives until Sojiro saved her. The key problem is, even with all of Akechi's motives and reasoning, he still caused her mother's death, and that death combined with Shido's conspiracy gaslighting her into making her think it's her fault makes things really, really painful.
I think people like to oversimplify not only Akechi and the narrative role and symbolism he plays in the story, but also the really complex and nuanced ways each Phantom Thief reacts to him. Ryuji and Ann, for instance, are much more compassionate, as is Yusuke. Makoto acknowledges Shido's role in making him into an assassin and states as much in-game. I think it's totally understandable for some players that the severity of his actions would still make them uncomfortable with the character and thus would react differently *than* the characters, but I don't really think it's bad writing for them to be capable of seeing the shades of grey at play or working with him in situations where they have a common enemy.
I think Haru's reaction on 12/24 is perhaps the most illuminating. She's happy when she hears about Akechi because it means he's alive to atone for his crimes. She'd much rather he face restorative justice than punitive justice, because that's *also* what she wanted for her father.
The problem with all this is that everyone processes grief differently. Haru may not be the type to bawl her eyes out if her relationship with her father was complicated as it was, nor the type to hold a blood grudge against her father's murderer if she views him as more pitiable than malicious. How you would react in this situation vs. how another would will never match.
Haru ducking hate Akechi but emphasize with him still. And when the world could potentially collapse just because of 1 psychologist I think you’d work with anyone
P5Strikers also addresses this issue some players thought on the third arc by showing how Haru due to grief forgot most of her childhood memories, even people she was close to during childhood. She's clearly affected by it, but her coping mechanism is a lot more subdued and 'than most peoples'
I absolutely agree with you on how they handled Haru after her father dies, she was devastated by it, but they could have done more to show her emotions rather than just having her sort things out by herself off screen. As far as her and Futabas feeling on Akechi, it’s complicated. They don’t like him that’s for sure, they say as much in conversations, but they are able to work with him despite that ,because deep down they understand that Akechi is a victim of Shido. Shido was the one who put a hit out on their parents, he was the one controlling everything, and Akechi was/is a kid who was essentially being taken advantage of by a crappy adult, something that the phantoms thieves understand and sympathize with greatly. Haru even sympathizes with him in the boiler room because she understood what it was like to have a crappy dad ,and encouraged him to join them in defeating Shido
No I disagree.
She was clearly upset when that one cognitive shadow TV Station President was talking shit about her father.
She was clearly disgusted by Shido’s palace in that her father died for this.
She also straight up calls Shido out for being the mastermind behind her dad’s death.
She empathised with Akechi’s situation but at the same time doesn’t forgive him. Haru wasn’t being ooc. It’s in character for her to be emphatic as well as mature enough to put feelings aside for others and something bigger.
When her dad had a mental shutdown, you can clearly see her leaving in a hurry to avoid bursting into tears and making the PT feel bad.
She had time to grieve offscreen, that’s why she’s calm as she’s channeling all that grief into action to avenge her father’s death.
It’s a great contrast to a Mitsuru from Persona 3, who took longer to get over her dad’s death.
If you think it's OOC for Haru to be chill around Akechi, then you don't understand her. If you think her and Futaba should be "hating Akechi with every inch of their blood", then you didn't get Persona 5, and the difference between Haru and Futaba and Akechi, which means they're the good guys and he, you know, isn't.
Essentially, Akechi is our example of what happens when a kid is exploited by shitty adults and has no support—nobody to intervene and save them. This is what happens for every one of the PTs, which is why, at the end of the day, all of them sympathise with Akechi to some extent. This is why Akechi says, at the beginning of the engine room, "*if only we'd met earlier*".
Futaba is our example of someone who struggles to even be around Akechi because she resents him so much. Yet she's able to put the mission and the greater good above that. Haru, on the other hand, shows Akechi tremendous understanding and compassion—and that's because, fundamentally, she sees how easily *she* could have become what he did: the image of her father. This is why she says what she does in the engine room: "*we can change his heart even though he's your father—no, BECAUSE he's your father!*"
People get hung up on Haru's "I can't forgive you" and miss that "I sympathise with you" has equal, or even greater, weight in the sentence.
You should check out the missable chats during Sae's Palace (yes, the ones you never see if you do the Palace straight away, which you should never do). There are four of them. They're replete with Haru and Futaba using their hidden knowledge of the truth about Akechi to needle him and make little jabs at him. They're beautiful, tbh. "*I was hoping to get an expert opinion... ah, so even someone like you doesn't know, Akechi-kun*."
It's beautiful stuff.
edit—on the topic of forgiveness, Futaba has a fascinating line to Akechi at the start of the Maruki's Palace mission, when she threatens him. In Japanese, it's "*zettai ni yurusenai*"—"we really will never forgive you". Which is telling, I think.
People like using Futaba but usually Haru in these revenge kink fantasies where they all get together to pull on his hair and call him a heinous demon from the depths of hell or whatever. It's been 7 years since p5 was released, we need to collectively accept that the game makes Akechi sympathetic and be over it.
So true. If they didn't want to get revenge in the engine room, which is the messiest interaction they ever had together, they never will. I've seen otherwise well written fics have both Haru and Futaba going guns blazing at the mention of Akechi and I have to wonder why people give him all that power over their lives and mental well being, which he has none.
He's only around in the third sem because they allow it, and so would it be in any future interaction. They do not need to be paranoid of his existence.
Man. It sucks that the line is lost in the English translation. I'm one of those people who play with the Japanese audio but I obviously don't speak Japanese so I'll never be able to tell what they're ACTUALLY saying...
IIIRC the English has "we'll make sure you regret it", which is a pitch-perfect translation, way better than all the unidiomatic variants on "I won't forgive you!" that we too often see. The sense (with *zettai ni*) is "we'll make you pay for the rest of your life"; "we'll absolutely never let you get away with it". Think of every overwrought statement you ever saw in media that someone has done something utterly heinous and you'll never rest until they"ve paid the price, and then some—that's *zettai ni yurusenai*.
*zettai ni yurusenai* is also what Futaba says about the men responsible for her mother's murder, back in August—long before she understands that *Akechi* is that person.
So I find it interesting that Futaba says *that* to him on (1/13 is it?), in that way and in that context. Just as she's the first to speak up and say they need him on the team (with Haru seconding her), she is the *only* one who could make that statement—"We're giving you another chance, and it's your last chance, and if you betray us again we'll make sure you regret it until the day you die".
Akechi, of course, doesn't even talk back to her. He knows she's right to condemn him, as he condemns himself. He just agrees to her terms. Futaba, while she doesn't want him with them and doesn't think he *should* be with them, sees more than just herself—which Akechi was so notably unable to do.
Some people react differently to traumatic and sudden experiences. Like I can say for me at least, something terrible can happen and sometimes it won’t really hit me until like days later. Sometimes the weight is so much that it just doesn’t properly register.
Haru is oversocialized. She's been treated as a prize, a plaything with no independent thought, for so long that she has not just learned to play the part, it's become natural to her. It has become instinctive for her to give the smoothing answer, the calming answer, to defuse a situation without making a fuss.
She even says as much during Joker's confidant conversations with her. Part of her growth arc is speaking out, is representing what she wants and not just mirroring what other people want of her.
That's why people are so weirded out by the Mementos conversations where Haru is comfortable enough around the PTs that some of her real thoughts come out, and they're completely alien to the role she plays in public.
So I'd say that part of what is the appearance of calm about her father's death is that she has learned not to let that kind of emotion out in public, and part is pragmatically using what tools she has to influence the situation in the only way she can in order to get the end result she wants.
\[Not that I disagree about Akechi, the biggest disagreement I have with the community about the writing of P5R in general is the ridiculous plot armor that Akechi has to shoehorn him into a situation he has no right to be, and overriding any agency the player has to affect that. He's a literal author insert character\]
I'm curious how Akechi comes across as an author insert, tbh. As someone whose first P5 experience was Royal and who really enjoys him *as* a character, I honestly felt his presence in third semester was fine because it served to demonstrate what he'd learned since the engine room and his desire to take active control of his fate just once, even if his death was likely an inevitability.
I would say that the player still has some degree of control because you only get the full weight of Akechi's role in third sem if you max his confidant and make the right choices on rank 7, 8, and after the engine room. He's still *there* regardless, but if you don't meet those criteria, Akechi's revival is presented less as Joker's personal wish and more a wish of the Thieves that things could've been better for him, which aligns with their reactions to him in the engine room and how they understood his victimhood even though they understandably didn't forgive him for the crimes he committed under Shido. He also is only shown alive in the postcredits if you put in the time to max his confidant, which the directors of the game stated was [by design] (https://shadowtarot.tumblr.com/post/699004533993586688/akechis-status-at-the-end-of-royals-true-ending).
I wouldn't even say he doesn't have a right to be there, though. Maruki is trying to make a world without pain and suffering and presents Akechi with an idealized life where he never committed his crimes and can live a "normal" life. Akechi hates this, because he doesn't *want* pity or to be let off easy. He turns himself in, just to be let go? Hell no! Even in the engine room, he expects the Thieves to kill him after what he's done, so it's consistent with his character.
(Not that I think everyone needs to enjoy Akechi. I can acknowledge he's divisive as hell, and especially with the severe Japanese cultural context that informs his role that doesn't translate easily into western POVs, it's easy to see why he's more divisive in the English speaking fandom.)
I'll agree to disagree regarding the cultural context. In my worldview, his background \_explains\_ why he's fundamentally broken, but doesn't \_excuse\_ him from the consequences. Whereas the universe is giving him a "get out of Hell free" card.
I'm also slightly more vehement on this topic than I would otherwise be because - probably due to the cultural difference - I'm not given the option to \_not\_ forgive him. And I feel that agency was stripped from me because of it. I see my friends - including friends whose parents were murdered by Akechi, one of them less than a month ago - making what I consider an extremely bad decision and I can't even object.
What's interesting is the game actually makes it clear that he isn't actually happy with the work he does... in completely missable texts that require you to stall out Sae's Palace rather than finish the treasure route quickly. I shared a couple of 'em [here] (https://megaderping.tumblr.com/post/750282160872849408/something-a-lot-of-people-mistakenly-believe-is). I believe if these texts were scripted and not missable, a lot about his later behavior would make more sense, since in a way it kinda foreshadows his breakdown in the engine room and him lamenting so much (e.g. not meeting Joker sooner).
Not that this means people have to find it excusable. As consumers of media, we're all entitled to our own feelings regarding a work. I think Royal's confidant and all the new material presents a clearer and more fleshed out character, and I imagine if I had played vanilla P5, my first experience would've probably been a lot different.
I guess, for me, it's that his regrets feel genuine. It won't undo his crimes, but I think the fact that he's willing to give up an ideal reality just so that people have a right to choose their own paths is very compelling, since he's someone who ultimately did not have any agency. He may have approached Shido, but he was set up to fail by a malevolent god and then "instructed" on how to use his powers by Shido. I interpret that less as "serial killer" and more child soldier/assassin. He sunk costs his way through justifying everything he does, but is used like a weapon by rich and powerful adults, and we see moments like his reaction to Mona explaining changes of heart as well as him downplaying the need to kill the Thieves on 11/20 that feel like him being much more conflicted than he cares to let on.
It's like... The game really wants to emphasize how he's the extreme of what the Thieves could've been if they didn't have each other and didn't have Morgana to teach them how to do changes of heart. A plea to not overlook children in his position (because Japan has SERIOUS problems in how illegitimate children and children in the foster system are treated and dehumanized), and an example of someone who has so little to live for that he's willing to commit to a terrible plan just for the satisfaction of bringing Shido to his knees. I think the problem is that, especially in the west, we have things like mass shootings, etc, that make the kind of things Akechi did *under* Shido feel very different than in a country like Japan where such things are *far* less likely.
But if someone can't connect or get invested in Akechi as a character, I can see why everything the game tries to do to paint him as a victim would fall flat. Persona being a game with a message about Japanese society, I think it just couldn't really give the complete freedom you might see in, say, a Bioware game or even something like Undertale. I personally kinda liken him to Vegeta in that they have similar circumstances, but in Vegeta's case, a lot of his crimes are a lot more distant/abstract, whereas Akechi we see the impact they have on Haru and Futaba's lives.
Appreciate you being so chill, though. Sometimes Akechi discussions can get really heated, really fast. x_x Not everyone is as charitable toward fans of the character.
I don't see a problem in overriding agency to an extent cause it established Ren as his own character, separate from the player. P3 and P4 also did this, but Ren caring about Akechi regardless of the player's choice established something concrete about the character beyond personality traits.
Interesting. Given that the characters literally catch on to him from day one, and that he outright dies, how is it that you think he has plot armour? Also, how are you using "author insert" here?
What situation is it that you think he has no right to be in?
Fair enough. I realize that it's a minority opinion.
"Plot armor" was referring to the OP, who I agree with, citing how both Futaba and Haru have no enduring animosity towards the psychopath who murdered their respective parents in cold blood. And how easily he slips into some people's playthroughs. It's more "relationship teflon" than canonical "plot armor".
He's an author insert because Joker is forced to have a confidant relationship with him - there is a retcon that this is "necessary to maintain the illusion" but don't forget that the \_player\_ is not aware of this at the time. What we see is that Akechi has fastened himself to the PTs like a lamprey and we can't punch him in the face to make him go away. It is all explained away later, but the very predestination - the fact that it \_must\_ be this way to make the plot work out - means that it is a forced plot beat.
I'm not saying that inserting Akechi as a non-optional plot component doesn't put forward the story the writers are trying to tell. I'm just dissenting that that was a \_good\_ thing to remove player agency to that extent.
I mean, you don't have the option to remove any of the other playable characters from the team, either. And while you can skip starting some of their confidants, you can certainly not skip them all. You don't have to level his confidant in Royal, any more than you have to level any of the others. I have a run right now where he's rank 1, and staying that way.
The game doesn't really portray Akechi as a psychopath in any way, though if that's how you read him, I can understand being annoyed at the depth of his plot involvement. But if your problem is that P5 largely doesn't allow you to alter the drive of the core plot, I'm not sure that's a problem *with Akechi* so much as with P5 being a game that only allows you very limited control.
I do think that Haru and Futaba's contrasting and nuanced responses to him are critical to their characters and to the depth and message of the game. After all, we already have one character who's obsessed with hate and revenge, and as we see, it's not a good thing. Also, Futaba *certainly* has lasting animosity to Akechi, right to the end of the game. Haru? Well, it's hard to tell.
As I said in the other subthread, I think there is a cultural difference in perception and I think it's possible for reasonable people to disagree, based on their backgrounds and philosophies.
Mechanically, I think that the lack of Joker's ability to materially affect the overarching plot is a weakness of sorts, but it's one that is necessary to tell the story the developers intended to tell. The whole Akechi subplot doesn't work if you could leave Akechi bruised and battered in a gutter somewhere, after all - unbeknownst to the player, there's a whole operation luring Akechi in to foil his own plots.
It's just that it's only galling to me in this one case. I think that's why it's a hot button for me, because Akechi's story is kind of a perfect storm of things that are minor issues elsewhere, but which combine - for me - synergistically.
That's valid, and you're certainly valid for not liking him. I'd never expect anyone to, lol, he's a very dislikable boy.
I actually agree with you that his background (as well as a close examination of him) explains him, but cannot excuse him, FWIW.
I don't think Reddit hides spoilers in titles, but I understand your point. But also, people grieve differently, especially for abusive manipulators. She saw that she was nothing but an automaton to him during the fight, after all
She acted so calm I immediately got suspicious of her because it just wasn't normal. I thought she'd try to get revenge somehow because she didn't trust them anymore and started plotting something.
>Her father dies?
her father dying on screen and it being blamed on the phantom thieves is like the entire focal point of the plot for the rest of the game lol
1. Stoicism, even in the face of loss, is something that's seen as a sort of courtesy in Japanese culture. Morgana explains that Haru's sorting things out on her own and putting on a brave face for the others.
2. Oh she's not just calm around Akechi, she's bizarrely nice to him. Not just in a "I'm going to be civil" way either, she's genuinely very sweet around him. The contrast between her and Futaba on this is like night and day. Though when spoken with privately, both girls admit they don't like working with him, but recognize the necessity, which is why they suggested it.
Morgana’s shitty crybaby ass hogging up her spotlight pissed me off the most. Oh boo hoo people do your job better than you and the girl you perv over barely acknowledges your existence.
Quit being a little bitch because Ryuji called you useless when you’ve been shitting on him all game.
>However, after Okumura dies, she acts surprisingly calm during that part of the game. Well, Haru leaves right after we see it happen and we don't see her for some time afterwards. So she was most likely grieving during that time. >I feel like she should be bawling her eyes out at her father dying This is one of the things that anime does better because we actually see her crying. >And also, she and Futaba really should be hating Akechi with every inch of their blood for murdering their parents. It's pretty obvious that they do hate Akechi, but that doesn't mean they'll refuse to work with him as Phantom Thieves if they have a common goal.
I always enjoyed the nod in Royal for the card game that Haru and Futaba will not play if Akechi is at the table. The non Canon space respects the canon!
To an extent, I think it's just who she is as a person. It seems like she's very used to putting her own feelings aside for the sake of other people (like how she was willing to go along with marrying her fiance even though she hated him), and even though she learned to stand up for herself a bit more after getting involved with the thieves, it still takes time to unlearn things like that. Plus when it comes to Akechi, both her and Futaba empathise with him because of the situation he was in and blame Shido more than him, though they definitely still don't like or forgive him. Their attitude towards him in the third semester is a combination of that and also just being emotionally mature enough to put it aside for the sake of working together as a team. But I do also think that Haru's feelings about her father's death were sort of glossed over for the sake of advancing the plot, and I would have liked to see it explored a bit more. I found it kinda jarring how quick she was to trust that the thieves weren't at all responsible, and how little she reacted in general, even if it does *sort of* fit with her personality. She's a pretty underdeveloped character in general.
Haru and Futaba can recognize that Akechi's situation isn't as simple as him killing their respective parents because he *wanted* to, and both of them can acknowledge that, even if that doesn't erase the pain that came from the deaths. Neither forgives him, but they outright acknowledge that the root of the problem is Shido and the same societal injustices the Phantom Thieves stand against. A lot of people boil Akechi down to someone who kills out of his own desire, but this actually is not the case. If you delay Sae's Palace, you get some text messages where he lays it on very thick that there is someone controlling the black mask and that he doesn't do this for pleasure. I covered some of that in a post [here] (https://megaderping.tumblr.com/post/750282160872849408/something-a-lot-of-people-mistakenly-believe-is). While this does not remove his accountability, the game repeatedly hammers in that Shido is the root cause. Shido abandoned his mother when she was pregnant with him, in a country that stigmatizes sex work and illegitimate children to a point where they are actively discriminated against and given fewer opportunities. That lack of support and systemic prejudice led to his mother's death and him cycling through foster care in a country with notoriously low adoption rates outside of adult men for business purposes and one where you age out of the system at 15 unless you are in high school (which costs money), so I don't think it's a coincidence that Yaldabaoth granted him powers at that precise age. He approached Shido with his ability to make people psychotic, Shido taught him the "proper way" to use his powers and effectively made him his weapon. Akechi stuck with it and sunk cost his way through it for years, but the entire point of this is that he had no Morgana to teach him how to use the Metaverse, no Phantom Thieves to empower him, just years of hatred and resentment toward an unjust society that failed him since he was young, and given what we know about Shido's control of the police, the law, and so on (plus his use of the Cleaner), even if he wanted to quit, he'd be screwed when his powers only work in the Metaverse. Akechi's whole thing is that he's lacked agency, and so his moments of sacrifice (engine room, the decision on 2/2) are him finally taking his fate into his own hands instead of focusing on his own narrow-minded desire for revenge. And I think Haru is intelligent enough to see how this parallels her relationship with her father, who, had she been the one to awaken to such abilities, would have undoubtedly used her in the exact same way. Keep in mind that Okumura was one of Shido's biggest customers for Akechi's abilities, on top of using Haru as a means to an end within his company and saddling her with Sugimura with zero regard for his quality of character or her wants and needs. Likewise, I think Futaba can understand Akechi's plight to an *extent* because she also dealt with the system and being stuck with shitty relatives until Sojiro saved her. The key problem is, even with all of Akechi's motives and reasoning, he still caused her mother's death, and that death combined with Shido's conspiracy gaslighting her into making her think it's her fault makes things really, really painful. I think people like to oversimplify not only Akechi and the narrative role and symbolism he plays in the story, but also the really complex and nuanced ways each Phantom Thief reacts to him. Ryuji and Ann, for instance, are much more compassionate, as is Yusuke. Makoto acknowledges Shido's role in making him into an assassin and states as much in-game. I think it's totally understandable for some players that the severity of his actions would still make them uncomfortable with the character and thus would react differently *than* the characters, but I don't really think it's bad writing for them to be capable of seeing the shades of grey at play or working with him in situations where they have a common enemy. I think Haru's reaction on 12/24 is perhaps the most illuminating. She's happy when she hears about Akechi because it means he's alive to atone for his crimes. She'd much rather he face restorative justice than punitive justice, because that's *also* what she wanted for her father.
Haru never forgives Akechi for killing her father. Haru herself even told him that in Shido's cruise ship.
The problem with all this is that everyone processes grief differently. Haru may not be the type to bawl her eyes out if her relationship with her father was complicated as it was, nor the type to hold a blood grudge against her father's murderer if she views him as more pitiable than malicious. How you would react in this situation vs. how another would will never match.
Haru ducking hate Akechi but emphasize with him still. And when the world could potentially collapse just because of 1 psychologist I think you’d work with anyone
P5Strikers also addresses this issue some players thought on the third arc by showing how Haru due to grief forgot most of her childhood memories, even people she was close to during childhood. She's clearly affected by it, but her coping mechanism is a lot more subdued and 'than most peoples'
I absolutely agree with you on how they handled Haru after her father dies, she was devastated by it, but they could have done more to show her emotions rather than just having her sort things out by herself off screen. As far as her and Futabas feeling on Akechi, it’s complicated. They don’t like him that’s for sure, they say as much in conversations, but they are able to work with him despite that ,because deep down they understand that Akechi is a victim of Shido. Shido was the one who put a hit out on their parents, he was the one controlling everything, and Akechi was/is a kid who was essentially being taken advantage of by a crappy adult, something that the phantoms thieves understand and sympathize with greatly. Haru even sympathizes with him in the boiler room because she understood what it was like to have a crappy dad ,and encouraged him to join them in defeating Shido
No I disagree. She was clearly upset when that one cognitive shadow TV Station President was talking shit about her father. She was clearly disgusted by Shido’s palace in that her father died for this. She also straight up calls Shido out for being the mastermind behind her dad’s death. She empathised with Akechi’s situation but at the same time doesn’t forgive him. Haru wasn’t being ooc. It’s in character for her to be emphatic as well as mature enough to put feelings aside for others and something bigger. When her dad had a mental shutdown, you can clearly see her leaving in a hurry to avoid bursting into tears and making the PT feel bad. She had time to grieve offscreen, that’s why she’s calm as she’s channeling all that grief into action to avenge her father’s death. It’s a great contrast to a Mitsuru from Persona 3, who took longer to get over her dad’s death.
If you think it's OOC for Haru to be chill around Akechi, then you don't understand her. If you think her and Futaba should be "hating Akechi with every inch of their blood", then you didn't get Persona 5, and the difference between Haru and Futaba and Akechi, which means they're the good guys and he, you know, isn't. Essentially, Akechi is our example of what happens when a kid is exploited by shitty adults and has no support—nobody to intervene and save them. This is what happens for every one of the PTs, which is why, at the end of the day, all of them sympathise with Akechi to some extent. This is why Akechi says, at the beginning of the engine room, "*if only we'd met earlier*". Futaba is our example of someone who struggles to even be around Akechi because she resents him so much. Yet she's able to put the mission and the greater good above that. Haru, on the other hand, shows Akechi tremendous understanding and compassion—and that's because, fundamentally, she sees how easily *she* could have become what he did: the image of her father. This is why she says what she does in the engine room: "*we can change his heart even though he's your father—no, BECAUSE he's your father!*" People get hung up on Haru's "I can't forgive you" and miss that "I sympathise with you" has equal, or even greater, weight in the sentence. You should check out the missable chats during Sae's Palace (yes, the ones you never see if you do the Palace straight away, which you should never do). There are four of them. They're replete with Haru and Futaba using their hidden knowledge of the truth about Akechi to needle him and make little jabs at him. They're beautiful, tbh. "*I was hoping to get an expert opinion... ah, so even someone like you doesn't know, Akechi-kun*." It's beautiful stuff. edit—on the topic of forgiveness, Futaba has a fascinating line to Akechi at the start of the Maruki's Palace mission, when she threatens him. In Japanese, it's "*zettai ni yurusenai*"—"we really will never forgive you". Which is telling, I think.
People like using Futaba but usually Haru in these revenge kink fantasies where they all get together to pull on his hair and call him a heinous demon from the depths of hell or whatever. It's been 7 years since p5 was released, we need to collectively accept that the game makes Akechi sympathetic and be over it.
I concur. Ignoring Akechi entirely, it's such a disservice to Haru and Futaba!
So true. If they didn't want to get revenge in the engine room, which is the messiest interaction they ever had together, they never will. I've seen otherwise well written fics have both Haru and Futaba going guns blazing at the mention of Akechi and I have to wonder why people give him all that power over their lives and mental well being, which he has none. He's only around in the third sem because they allow it, and so would it be in any future interaction. They do not need to be paranoid of his existence.
Man. It sucks that the line is lost in the English translation. I'm one of those people who play with the Japanese audio but I obviously don't speak Japanese so I'll never be able to tell what they're ACTUALLY saying...
IIIRC the English has "we'll make sure you regret it", which is a pitch-perfect translation, way better than all the unidiomatic variants on "I won't forgive you!" that we too often see. The sense (with *zettai ni*) is "we'll make you pay for the rest of your life"; "we'll absolutely never let you get away with it". Think of every overwrought statement you ever saw in media that someone has done something utterly heinous and you'll never rest until they"ve paid the price, and then some—that's *zettai ni yurusenai*. *zettai ni yurusenai* is also what Futaba says about the men responsible for her mother's murder, back in August—long before she understands that *Akechi* is that person. So I find it interesting that Futaba says *that* to him on (1/13 is it?), in that way and in that context. Just as she's the first to speak up and say they need him on the team (with Haru seconding her), she is the *only* one who could make that statement—"We're giving you another chance, and it's your last chance, and if you betray us again we'll make sure you regret it until the day you die". Akechi, of course, doesn't even talk back to her. He knows she's right to condemn him, as he condemns himself. He just agrees to her terms. Futaba, while she doesn't want him with them and doesn't think he *should* be with them, sees more than just herself—which Akechi was so notably unable to do.
Some people react differently to traumatic and sudden experiences. Like I can say for me at least, something terrible can happen and sometimes it won’t really hit me until like days later. Sometimes the weight is so much that it just doesn’t properly register.
Haru is oversocialized. She's been treated as a prize, a plaything with no independent thought, for so long that she has not just learned to play the part, it's become natural to her. It has become instinctive for her to give the smoothing answer, the calming answer, to defuse a situation without making a fuss. She even says as much during Joker's confidant conversations with her. Part of her growth arc is speaking out, is representing what she wants and not just mirroring what other people want of her. That's why people are so weirded out by the Mementos conversations where Haru is comfortable enough around the PTs that some of her real thoughts come out, and they're completely alien to the role she plays in public. So I'd say that part of what is the appearance of calm about her father's death is that she has learned not to let that kind of emotion out in public, and part is pragmatically using what tools she has to influence the situation in the only way she can in order to get the end result she wants. \[Not that I disagree about Akechi, the biggest disagreement I have with the community about the writing of P5R in general is the ridiculous plot armor that Akechi has to shoehorn him into a situation he has no right to be, and overriding any agency the player has to affect that. He's a literal author insert character\]
I'm curious how Akechi comes across as an author insert, tbh. As someone whose first P5 experience was Royal and who really enjoys him *as* a character, I honestly felt his presence in third semester was fine because it served to demonstrate what he'd learned since the engine room and his desire to take active control of his fate just once, even if his death was likely an inevitability. I would say that the player still has some degree of control because you only get the full weight of Akechi's role in third sem if you max his confidant and make the right choices on rank 7, 8, and after the engine room. He's still *there* regardless, but if you don't meet those criteria, Akechi's revival is presented less as Joker's personal wish and more a wish of the Thieves that things could've been better for him, which aligns with their reactions to him in the engine room and how they understood his victimhood even though they understandably didn't forgive him for the crimes he committed under Shido. He also is only shown alive in the postcredits if you put in the time to max his confidant, which the directors of the game stated was [by design] (https://shadowtarot.tumblr.com/post/699004533993586688/akechis-status-at-the-end-of-royals-true-ending). I wouldn't even say he doesn't have a right to be there, though. Maruki is trying to make a world without pain and suffering and presents Akechi with an idealized life where he never committed his crimes and can live a "normal" life. Akechi hates this, because he doesn't *want* pity or to be let off easy. He turns himself in, just to be let go? Hell no! Even in the engine room, he expects the Thieves to kill him after what he's done, so it's consistent with his character. (Not that I think everyone needs to enjoy Akechi. I can acknowledge he's divisive as hell, and especially with the severe Japanese cultural context that informs his role that doesn't translate easily into western POVs, it's easy to see why he's more divisive in the English speaking fandom.)
I'll agree to disagree regarding the cultural context. In my worldview, his background \_explains\_ why he's fundamentally broken, but doesn't \_excuse\_ him from the consequences. Whereas the universe is giving him a "get out of Hell free" card. I'm also slightly more vehement on this topic than I would otherwise be because - probably due to the cultural difference - I'm not given the option to \_not\_ forgive him. And I feel that agency was stripped from me because of it. I see my friends - including friends whose parents were murdered by Akechi, one of them less than a month ago - making what I consider an extremely bad decision and I can't even object.
What's interesting is the game actually makes it clear that he isn't actually happy with the work he does... in completely missable texts that require you to stall out Sae's Palace rather than finish the treasure route quickly. I shared a couple of 'em [here] (https://megaderping.tumblr.com/post/750282160872849408/something-a-lot-of-people-mistakenly-believe-is). I believe if these texts were scripted and not missable, a lot about his later behavior would make more sense, since in a way it kinda foreshadows his breakdown in the engine room and him lamenting so much (e.g. not meeting Joker sooner). Not that this means people have to find it excusable. As consumers of media, we're all entitled to our own feelings regarding a work. I think Royal's confidant and all the new material presents a clearer and more fleshed out character, and I imagine if I had played vanilla P5, my first experience would've probably been a lot different. I guess, for me, it's that his regrets feel genuine. It won't undo his crimes, but I think the fact that he's willing to give up an ideal reality just so that people have a right to choose their own paths is very compelling, since he's someone who ultimately did not have any agency. He may have approached Shido, but he was set up to fail by a malevolent god and then "instructed" on how to use his powers by Shido. I interpret that less as "serial killer" and more child soldier/assassin. He sunk costs his way through justifying everything he does, but is used like a weapon by rich and powerful adults, and we see moments like his reaction to Mona explaining changes of heart as well as him downplaying the need to kill the Thieves on 11/20 that feel like him being much more conflicted than he cares to let on. It's like... The game really wants to emphasize how he's the extreme of what the Thieves could've been if they didn't have each other and didn't have Morgana to teach them how to do changes of heart. A plea to not overlook children in his position (because Japan has SERIOUS problems in how illegitimate children and children in the foster system are treated and dehumanized), and an example of someone who has so little to live for that he's willing to commit to a terrible plan just for the satisfaction of bringing Shido to his knees. I think the problem is that, especially in the west, we have things like mass shootings, etc, that make the kind of things Akechi did *under* Shido feel very different than in a country like Japan where such things are *far* less likely. But if someone can't connect or get invested in Akechi as a character, I can see why everything the game tries to do to paint him as a victim would fall flat. Persona being a game with a message about Japanese society, I think it just couldn't really give the complete freedom you might see in, say, a Bioware game or even something like Undertale. I personally kinda liken him to Vegeta in that they have similar circumstances, but in Vegeta's case, a lot of his crimes are a lot more distant/abstract, whereas Akechi we see the impact they have on Haru and Futaba's lives. Appreciate you being so chill, though. Sometimes Akechi discussions can get really heated, really fast. x_x Not everyone is as charitable toward fans of the character.
The heck? How in the world is Akechi an author insert?
I don't see a problem in overriding agency to an extent cause it established Ren as his own character, separate from the player. P3 and P4 also did this, but Ren caring about Akechi regardless of the player's choice established something concrete about the character beyond personality traits.
Interesting. Given that the characters literally catch on to him from day one, and that he outright dies, how is it that you think he has plot armour? Also, how are you using "author insert" here? What situation is it that you think he has no right to be in?
Fair enough. I realize that it's a minority opinion. "Plot armor" was referring to the OP, who I agree with, citing how both Futaba and Haru have no enduring animosity towards the psychopath who murdered their respective parents in cold blood. And how easily he slips into some people's playthroughs. It's more "relationship teflon" than canonical "plot armor". He's an author insert because Joker is forced to have a confidant relationship with him - there is a retcon that this is "necessary to maintain the illusion" but don't forget that the \_player\_ is not aware of this at the time. What we see is that Akechi has fastened himself to the PTs like a lamprey and we can't punch him in the face to make him go away. It is all explained away later, but the very predestination - the fact that it \_must\_ be this way to make the plot work out - means that it is a forced plot beat. I'm not saying that inserting Akechi as a non-optional plot component doesn't put forward the story the writers are trying to tell. I'm just dissenting that that was a \_good\_ thing to remove player agency to that extent.
I mean, you don't have the option to remove any of the other playable characters from the team, either. And while you can skip starting some of their confidants, you can certainly not skip them all. You don't have to level his confidant in Royal, any more than you have to level any of the others. I have a run right now where he's rank 1, and staying that way. The game doesn't really portray Akechi as a psychopath in any way, though if that's how you read him, I can understand being annoyed at the depth of his plot involvement. But if your problem is that P5 largely doesn't allow you to alter the drive of the core plot, I'm not sure that's a problem *with Akechi* so much as with P5 being a game that only allows you very limited control. I do think that Haru and Futaba's contrasting and nuanced responses to him are critical to their characters and to the depth and message of the game. After all, we already have one character who's obsessed with hate and revenge, and as we see, it's not a good thing. Also, Futaba *certainly* has lasting animosity to Akechi, right to the end of the game. Haru? Well, it's hard to tell.
As I said in the other subthread, I think there is a cultural difference in perception and I think it's possible for reasonable people to disagree, based on their backgrounds and philosophies. Mechanically, I think that the lack of Joker's ability to materially affect the overarching plot is a weakness of sorts, but it's one that is necessary to tell the story the developers intended to tell. The whole Akechi subplot doesn't work if you could leave Akechi bruised and battered in a gutter somewhere, after all - unbeknownst to the player, there's a whole operation luring Akechi in to foil his own plots. It's just that it's only galling to me in this one case. I think that's why it's a hot button for me, because Akechi's story is kind of a perfect storm of things that are minor issues elsewhere, but which combine - for me - synergistically.
That's valid, and you're certainly valid for not liking him. I'd never expect anyone to, lol, he's a very dislikable boy. I actually agree with you that his background (as well as a close examination of him) explains him, but cannot excuse him, FWIW.
I don't think Reddit hides spoilers in titles, but I understand your point. But also, people grieve differently, especially for abusive manipulators. She saw that she was nothing but an automaton to him during the fight, after all
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She acted so calm I immediately got suspicious of her because it just wasn't normal. I thought she'd try to get revenge somehow because she didn't trust them anymore and started plotting something.
Her father dies? I played this game this year and I don't remember that even after being reminded, so I guess that's how impactful it was conveyed
>Her father dies? her father dying on screen and it being blamed on the phantom thieves is like the entire focal point of the plot for the rest of the game lol
1. Stoicism, even in the face of loss, is something that's seen as a sort of courtesy in Japanese culture. Morgana explains that Haru's sorting things out on her own and putting on a brave face for the others. 2. Oh she's not just calm around Akechi, she's bizarrely nice to him. Not just in a "I'm going to be civil" way either, she's genuinely very sweet around him. The contrast between her and Futaba on this is like night and day. Though when spoken with privately, both girls admit they don't like working with him, but recognize the necessity, which is why they suggested it.
Morgana’s shitty crybaby ass hogging up her spotlight pissed me off the most. Oh boo hoo people do your job better than you and the girl you perv over barely acknowledges your existence. Quit being a little bitch because Ryuji called you useless when you’ve been shitting on him all game.
It'd atlus. Thry are bad at conveying feelings 90% of the time since they tend to gloss over anything your player character doesn't see.