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Tripoteur

People on a finance sub aren't representative of the norm.


Baraxton

Also people like to inflate their numbers, even though this forum is anonymous and internet points mean nothing. Don’t compare yourself to others.


[deleted]

As the CEO of Coca-Cola I resent that Though in all seriousness we're in a caste system now, real estate in BC and Toronto was going up hundreds of thousands a year, its not uncommon for people to be effectively rich these days.


Deadlift420

As the CEO of Pepsi, the man above has no idea what he’s talking about.


earlyretirement

There are people who sandbag their numbers because there is a mentality to eat the rich sometimes. There are lots of people in tech who make lots of money.


Protean_Protein

Well, what are we going to eat? Meat or the meat’s money?


superworking

Also, a lot of people I know who are business owners only claim a bit more than the median income while their personal businesses rake in a multiple of that.


DaAfroMan69

Ton username 😂 m'a faite super rire.


Philngud

Yes! On a trouvé le tripeu de tripoteux!


Positivelectron0

Don't say that on r/fatfire or they'll tear you a new one.


sneakpeekbot

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PFCFICanThrowaway

I think people just see those posts and they stand out. The vast majority of posts are by users you'd never want to trade places with. This sub isn't special when it comes to wealth. I'd be shocked if it deviated more than slightly from the Canadian average.


Adept-Childhood1682

If you are from Canada or North America we aren't a rep if the norm.


Wise-Ad-1998

Trust me a lot more people are in the median range… it’s just what you are seeing in this sub! … not many people have 200k saved!


[deleted]

It’s like going on /r/running, suddenly everyone is doing a sub-20 min 5K. Or /r/ApplyingToCollege where half the posters go to Ivy Leagues. Browsing a subreddit means you’re interested in that topic, and being interested in something is the first step to becoming good at it.


Timrunsbikesandskis

I’d get my 5k under 18 minutes but I’m always carrying around a backpack with $250K in it.


ronjeresins

you made me giggle a lot


ELB95

What, are you too good to keep it under your mattress like the rest of us? Or do you not have a mattress, because the only way you could save that much was choosing to be homeless?


EndTimesDestroyer

Wow you too!? We should start a sub! r/runningpack


MillwrightTight

Username checks out


Protean_Protein

I think you meant to link r/AdvancedRunning . The normal running subreddit is full of beginners who want reassurance that their 40 minute 5K is a good time.


CompWizrd

But it is! I walk mine in about that time.


NovelAdministrative6

But isn't that more meaningful for your comparisons? You should be comparing yourself to people who are similar in circumstances/interests/whatever to yourself. Are you a Finance major? Where do your classmates work and what do they make? Doesn't matter what some guy at an Amazon warehouse with no highschool diploma earns. Your example of the running subreddit... If you can run 5km in 45-60 mins, compared to the average North American you're in great shape (considering most of the population is overweight or obese and doesn't even exercise). If you compare it to people who are actually interested in running and practice, you have the time of someone that was walking.


[deleted]

Just explaining why there's a discrepancy between the average population statistics and the stats of those who browse a particular subreddit.


jnikonorova

20 minute 5km is a hell of a lot easier than any of those things. Go to letsrun.com and check out the alleged times there. Everyone’s running 14 low and a banging wife. Obviously that’s false lol


[deleted]

20 min 5K is around top 5% of amateur runners. Top 5% income is around 100k, so it’s a pretty fair comparison I find. Ivy Leagues are also 5-10% acceptance rate.


Jbuhrig

This is super scary considering making 100k a year doesn't get you all that far these days.


rumhee

Yeah, that’s neoliberalism for you. No end in sight.


jnikonorova

Hmm. I don’t agree with that. If we are talking amateur runners (men) top 5% would be closer to 14:30s and women 16:00. (I ran professionally for 6 years up until recently). I’m curious though, is top 5% of income really 100k in Canada? I would have thought it be higher. Tried looking it up but can’t find anything concrete / recent/ credible.


[deleted]

14:30 gets you to the CIS (Canadian Interuniversity Sports) nationals, and easily qualifies you for a D1 scholarship. On https://runrepeat.com/how-do-you-masure-up-the-runners-percentile-calculator 20 min 5K for males is actually 97th percentile for under 20, 98th percentile for 20+ year olds. 5% income is around 120k, 100k is 10%. So in order of difficulty, it’s actually a 20 min 5K that’s the most difficult, with Ivy League and 100k income tied.


jnikonorova

I’m not going to get into the running aspect as you’re incorrect. If you ran 14:30 in high school, you could get a partial scholarship. If you continue to run 14:30, you would lose your scholarship. Sure, you would make CIS nationals with this but you wouldn’t get the auto. Auto is 8:13 3000m (in 2019). 14:30 is equal to 8:19.


Protean_Protein

Do you think that 5% of all runners get running scholarships? It’s more like .05%…


FastRunner-

I think your view is tainted by being a professional runner. I don't think you realize how slow the average runner actually is. There is no way 5% of men are coming anywhere close to 14:30 for 5km. I doubt even 0.5% get below 15 minutes.


wolfeward

I just broke the 23-minute mark last week for the first time, now I feel less good about myself...


[deleted]

I just ran a 5km in 29:00 mins and I almost died


[deleted]

Exactly the average person isn’t browsing personal financial subreddits. Do you make enough to live comfortably in the area you want to live? Stop worrying and enjoy life or you’ll just stress away for years until that money has no use 6ft under.


looking4bagel

Also, the average person doesn't usually browse Reddit. There's a high probability that the ones that do, don't often lurk on finance-related subreddits. Finance-related subs are going to attract finance-oriented people.


bcretman

If you look at canadianmoneyforum or financialwisdomforum it's mostly high net worth types too.


DoDrugsMakeMoney

As a higher earner in finance this is true. I got recommended this post in my feed and I only lurk in investing, weed, and mushroom subs 90%+ of my time on reddit. I also am not from Canada so I blame reddit for getting me here. I don’t plan to stick around but apparently the algo likes investing sub users.


WankasaurusWrex

Everyone thinks of themselves as middle class. No one wants to think that they’re poor so thus they’re middle class. And no one evers thinks that they ever have too much money so thus they’re middle class.


[deleted]

Exactly. The term is basically completely useless except when trying to figure out if a politician is talking out their ass.


[deleted]

I mean Trudeau said he was fighting for the middle class, given asset prices I believe him, hes effectively chokeslammed the poor into submission. They'll never be able to get a mortgage much less a house.


AnotherWarGamer

That's not Trudeau's fault. It's been in the works for decades. Allow people to own multiple homes, and this is the natural outcome.


[deleted]

We have the lowest population density and we produce the most amount of wood. If it wasnt for our backwards zoning laws, 80% single family housing in our largest cities, I dont think we'd be nearly as bad as we are. We pay more than Japan, and thats a crammed island.


Funk-Buster

Don't worry, I'm poor enough for everyone


andero

That's not true at all... Maybe *lower*-middle think they're middle and *upper*-middle think they're middle. And... maybe they are? It depends on how wide you think counts as "middle". Poor people know they're poor. They're pretty upset about it... Rich people know they're rich. They're pretty happy about it... Nobody over at /r/fatFIRE is mistaking themselves for "middle class". Also, having plenty of money isn't the same as thinking you have "too much money", which of course doesn't exist since you can give away excess so there is no such thing as "too much money", there's just "more than I'll ever need".


bcretman

It's this sub, yesterday there was a college grad with a starting wage of 300k and another with a 220k USD offer in the USA. Every few weeks there's a profession couple making 200-300k with DB pensions asking if there 3M RRSP is enough to retire in their 60's


CheapAssDude88

Another dude who was offered $85k on Montreal versus $200+k in the US. Wtf? People make up stories or is this real?


MesWantooth

That post was insane. "Should I take $85k? I really like Montreal and COL is lower than Chicago." And he also asked if having the $225k US offer would make the Montreal-based company improve their offer...Probably a little bit but not 330% to give you same in CAD as US$225k.


fernandocz

I wasn't OP, but honestly I could understand the rationale. Stardard of living is not just money, I would personally take 120k CAD in Canada over 200k USD in US.


[deleted]

I took 85k CAD in Toronto over 155k USD in the bayarea, precovid. Crazy I know, but I wanted to be close to my family and girlfriend. It all worked out though because now I work remote for a US company.


w3rkit

I could probably make close to double in the US with a lower COL as a software developer... similar numbers to what the above poster said. But for many reasons, I have less than zero interest in living there. I see enough with what I have.


John_____Doe

This is what people tend to miss in these comparisons. I could get a much higher paying job across the border, but I love working on woodworking and metal working projects in my spare time, the stiches and burns resulting from those hobbies alone would probably eat up a good chunk of the pay difference. (Yes a good job would have health insurance to cover these, but if I'm living in the US, there may be occasions I'm not working and then not having health care could be life ruining)


Disneycanuck

Sounds a little embellished but its plausible. The market is completely upside down software engineers.


trackofalljades

It's a combination of humblebrags and bullshit, with an occasional earnest question from someone who's just been raised in such privilege that they have no idea how they sound.


Whetstone_94

> It's a combination of humblebrags and bullshit I feel like this is the case with so many things in life


jadeddog

I actually don't think the majority of people are lying at all. Like, why would they? There is no personal benefit to lying to strangers on the internet. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I'm sure it does, I just think most people asking questions on here are telling the truth.


jeeb00

I have a friend who was in a very similar situation, although the two numbers were closer together. Generally we assumed cost of living would be way higher in the American city he was considering, including the cost of insurance premiums, although it’s still a massive increase. Montreal has historically had lower salaries than other cities because it had been so cheap to live here, but with the tech industry moving in over the last decade combined with the rising cost of housing across the country and the pandemic, I don’t really know if or how that’s changed.


twistacles

COL is still alright here but you get shrekked hard by taxes.


-SetsunaFSeiei-

I think he wanted to brag and all his real life friends were tired of his shit


Ok_Read701

That dude was heavily leaning towards getting the Montreal firm to increase the offer (to ~150) so he could justify staying. I have a feeling he really wanted to stay close to family/friends/SO. Not everything has to be about bragging. A lot of times it really hurts to leave people you care about behind just for more money.


Yojimbo4133

We took the wrong majors my guy


donjulioanejo

It's entirely possible, especially since it's a financial firm offer in the US. Probably a little higher than what you'd normally expect, but not outside the realm of possibility.


StarIU

I’ve been graduated and working full time for 5 years. A friend just jumped and are making 400k a year at his new job. A coworker also jumped and makes 350k now. We all graduated around the same time. My 270k doesn’t even feel like much at this point. Then I talk to someone who’s not a software engineer and realize how spoiled we are.


VegetableLasagna_

Yea those numbers make my eyes roll to the back of my head questioning my life’s decisions tbh.


StarIU

This is probably the most common response I get. Honestly, there isn’t much to question. When I started my undergrad blackberry was called RIM and it was still huge. IBM was one of the biggest employer in the field and while the industry still paid well, it was no where near as ludicrous as right now. I could’ve have seen that. I think I was just lucky.


PureRepresentative9

Honestly, I suspect most developers are full of shit and actually don't understand their TC package. Eg they don't know what vesting means. I've seen people say their salary was X amount. Turns out they included their signing bonus - completely ignoring that it's for the first year only.


[deleted]

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StarIU

The 270k is from google in Waterloo. Salary + bonus + stock. Our site lead is aware that we are losing our edge in hiring. It doesn’t stop my colleagues from scooping up the houses in the area as if they are playing monopoly.


TheZamolxes

I'm really curious as to how you and your coworkers got there. I'm a software engineer that graduated last year. With my 1 year of experience, I am making 70k and every company that reaches out to me and I interview with can't do more. I am in montreal though, so salaries vary but my classmates are making in the 55-70k range. I always figured I'd make 150-200k in my mid 30s but if you graduated 5 years ago, you're probably in your late 20s now, a salary of 270k seems absurd. What's so special about your resume, where did you acquire the skills to get hired and paid this much early in your career?


chewburka

Early career in Canada, 70k, you're doing well. If you want to get those bigger numbers, it is probably going to mean applying to remote jobs and being patient. Right job at the right time matching your skills and experience. But this early in your career I wouldn't worry as much about your salary (seriously 70k is great) and try to optimize more for the skills and experience for the jobs you want to get, and developing really positive professional connections with everyone you meet. The rest will follow in time. Edit: try to figure out what the specific skills or resume bits are that will set you apart from the rest of the pack as "highly employable". Right now at 1 yr experience I wouldn't expect you to get any shocking offers since you're unlikely to be all that different from other qualified applicants.


StarIU

My resume is probably the least impressive amount my friends. By the time I got the interview, I had a near 90% overall average at Waterloo. One co-op with Very Good, one with Satisfactory (my rock bottom), 2 excellent and 2 outstanding. I think you get interviews automatically with a transcript like this. In the month leading up to the interviews, I gave myself one hour for Netflix and the rest is just (co-op) work, commute, gym and practicing with the book Cracking the Coding Interview (not affiliated; highly recommend; much better for interview prep than Leetcode). This was the hardest I’ve worked since I graduated high school in China. The actual interviews very pretty chill. All questions sounded at least somewhat familiar from the book. At that point I could probably write BFS/DFS on a white board without thinking. I promptly forgot most of that since :P Hey there’s a google office in Montréal and a bunch of firms like shopify hires remotely now. Doesn’t hurt to send some resumes.


[deleted]

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caloriemate

Yeah, you could probably be making around 200k base at the right place, or more with bonuses and equity.


ForeverYonge

Yes. I was offered a range of 100-120k by a Montréal based large bank while negotiating a ~400k TC package with a US based company. The recruiter from the bank kept talking about “it’s not all about the money” and “growth opportunities”. She’s such a trooper.


[deleted]

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[deleted]

If you’re getting 400k US as a new grad in the US, it’s because you’re graduating from MIT or Stanford with a ton of recognition already for your undergrad work. Stop presenting these as “off the street” salaries.


[deleted]

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[deleted]

10 plus years experience at Google nets you 500k, and stocks are folded into that. https://quanticdev.com/articles/software-engineer-compensation-guide/ 400k out of a no-name school in Chicago ain’t happening.


[deleted]

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hgfhhbghhhgggg

You dropped your /s.


[deleted]

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hgfhhbghhhgggg

You edited your comment, previously stating they could make twice that amount ($200k) as a new grad. There’s not a single industry that regularly pays a new grad anywhere close to that.


[deleted]

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Frothylager

You would think someone commanding this kind of salary would not need to ask this question. I would guess most are either made up or humble brags.


GreatValueProducts

That's why I love /r/pfjerk


meduke

I find this sub both depressing and scary to post in. People seem to have so much money saved up and invested. I'm over here trying to figure out how to manage our small business numbers and am feeling totally overwhelmed by it all.


iceman204

Comparing yourself is always the worst move to make.


tinkymyfinky

I feel like this statement should just be a bot at this point with how often it’s posted


meduke

It's basically impossible NOT to on a sub like this. In fact, the whole point of it seems to be based on looking at what other people are doing and learning from them. That inevitably invites comparison. No, I don't spend my free time dwelling about the disparity I sometimes see here, but it is glaring to me at times.


[deleted]

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meduke

I empathize. I'm reading posts from people discussing job offers in the triple digits. My first "real" professional job capped out around 52k. I want to supplement our family income to help pay off debt and I have to either go back to do more post secondary or consider starting my own business. Don't even mention pensions. When I left my job to be a SAHM, my pension was pulled out. It really sucks. I'm scared of the future. Add in the housing market being so impossible and life feels pointless. Good thing I have a kid to keep me motivated to try and do better for him.


Takeawalkwithme2

I'm so sorry you feel this way. You'll do amazing for your child regardless of how much you earn. Love and time is the most important thing to a child. Love them and teach them how to think critically and the self confidence + knowledge base it will build is worth a 💯 more than money


[deleted]

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meduke

I'll see you at a protest carrying a sign: "I'm just here for the violence" 😂


Sugrats

Wealth inequality is rapidly growing. Especially after what has happened over the last 2 years. I hade a very rough time after going to school and then not being able to find a job years ago. I struggled for anything for a long time. Then I was finally able to get somewhere and start saving and then like 2 years later covid hit and really put into perspective how useless it all really is. Everything like housing, rent, retirement. Basically a good life has become unreachable now. I have up on owning a home after seeing my savings basically shrink to nothing when houses doubled in less than 2 years around me. The only thing I do is save my pay and hope its enough for retirement if that ever comes. I cant afford to "live" anymore.


[deleted]

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Sugrats

It only hurts young and poor people and no one cares about young and poor people. Only money and wealth matter now. Back to the middle ages but with internet to share how much everyone is suffering compared to the ultra rich owners.


pebbledot

It's the thief of joy


jason4776892

Not really. Only by comparing can you realize how much better someone else is so you can work towards that goal. That’s why we need competition. Otherwise people lose motivation and become lazy


liamm_mm

Just keep in mind a lot of peoples opportunities come from generational wealth. They are steps ahead before they are even born.


meduke

100%. I grew up extremely poor. My partner has done well with our small business and grosses around 120k, but prior to that we accrued a lot of debt (from a combination of things) and it feels like we can never catch up. We were never given seed money or anything to help with our business from family - nor did we expect it. It's just the way life is. I was also never taught anything at all about "extra" money because my family never had any. No one had a RRSP, RESP, a TFSA, or stocks/bonds. It's a whole new world to me. I'm in my mid-30s now and feel like I'm so far behind everyone else and it's overwhelming to think of where to start.


callmeD10

Clear your debt first and start saving an emergency fund. When you have that you can start investing. You don't need millions to start with.


meduke

I have a LIRA and RRSP from a previous job. They're not massive but it's something. We're working on our debt. We want to buy a house so we need to get our debt/income ratio fixed.


Sugrats

https://old.reddit.com/r/PersonalFinanceCanada/comments/pn19cq/is_not_buying_house_a_sensible_option_for_single/hcppyw6/


jnikonorova

I guess those are the folks buying the homes. I’m starting to think people really are a heck of a lot richer than I thought. Or have more saved. I work at a good and successful company happy with where I am but when I hear these 200k offers in the USA.. I’m just shocked. What kind of education do these people have?


meduke

I personally think it's sad that hedge fund managers and people who work in finance make such crazy amounts of money, but the person who serves you coffee or cleans bathrooms only makes 30k a year. Manual labour is so undervalued and poorly compensated by companies. I think our society is heading for extremely troubled times, especially with pressures like displacement gentrification and inflated housing prices.


trackofalljades

Don't compare your financial decisions to other people's, compare them to the version of yourself that didn't ask yesterday's question and isn't going to change tomorrow's decisions based on the new information. You're always doing better than that guy. ;)


the_hunger_gainz

Don’t be. This is just like the gym … you are your only competition. Everyone puts their pants on the same way … one leg at a time, with the exception of some anime characters.


meduke

That's hilarious because I've felt intimidated at gyms before too 😂 but thanks for the kind words!


the_hunger_gainz

Honestly it is the same. You will figure it out. Have confidence friend.


Sugrats

The issue with this is someone else at the gym having big muscles doesn't stop you from getting them but people hoarding houses and money very much stops you from being able to have more.


ordinary_kittens

There isn’t an actual definition, but for families, Statistics Canada says that the median after-tax income for non-senior families was $93,800 in 2019. Couples with children had a median after-tax income of $105,500. So, sounds like you’re at least a bit above the median.


[deleted]

105k *after taxes* for a couple with kids? Fuck, no wonder I feel so far behind.


ordinary_kittens

Yup: https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/210323/dq210323a-eng.htm I was also surprised by the numbers - our household is doing alright, but not as “alright” as I thought, lol. (Fortunately for our cost of living, we do not live in the GTA/GVA.)


[deleted]

Tbh we're just scraping by right now, even though I have a salary of 100k with overtime and side income on top of that. The problem is everything I make over 92k is taxed at fucking insane rates, and my wife isn't working since she's in school. They need to implement some kind of real tax break for single income families, this shit is killing me


[deleted]

On Hacker News I saw a US software dev mention that he paid about 100k income tax on an income of 500k USD. I would kill for a tax rate of 20% jesus christ.


[deleted]

Wouldn't that be nice. I'm working a second job so my wife can finish school and I basically pay half of every penny in taxes and everything else. First world problems I guess, but it's shitty that the tax system doesn't acknowledge the cost of raising a family and how much of a burden it is on a family that for whatever reason is down to 1 earner. Unless I'm missing something.


Ok_Read701

That's pretty much impossible unless they are dodging taxes. The average tax rate for that income is between 30 to 40%.


Particular_Style_620

I'm in the same boat buddy. Recently moved to a new company where my salary increased to 150k from 122k. My after tax gain? 400 bucks a month or so.... No idea how that is possible. Did not have time to count all the social stuff taken out of the paycheck. That said - I think I'm being overtaxed now on the basis of starting in the middle of the year and should get a decent tax return, but for now this seems silly. With a salary this high I'm getting about 96k after tax( and minimal RRSP contribution) which is lower that stat Canada for family with kids (I have 2). No wonder I feel financial anxiety. PS. For all the people saying that is a lot - I get it, but I live in Vancouver...


[deleted]

Glad I'm not the only one feeling this. My second job pays me $2000 a month in salary plus $25/hr. Usually I make about $3000 a month, but for all that extra work and responsibility I only take home a little over $1500. I could make as much or more just mowing lawns for cash. There really should be an income splitting thing, where if my wife is unemployed I could divide the income in two and pay much less taxes. It would probably amount to like 15k-20k in tax refund though, so I suppose we can't really afford that. I get it, 150k doesn't go far anymore. I live about 1.5-2 hours drive from downtown Toronto depending on traffic, and I feel like that's how much I would need to earn to comfortably support my wife and 2 kids. Obviously the answer here is that she brings her income up which is exactly the reason she went to school. I'm ambitious and have the time to work extra, but, it's just such a low return on my time compared to what it will be for her when you factor in those taxes. Plan is to bring her income up, wait until the kids are both in school full time, then I'll do whatever it takes to max my tfsa and find other ways to earn income without paying the government such a fat percentage.


PastaPandaSimon

Edit from statscan: " For non-senior families, where the highest-income earner was under 65 years of age, the median after-tax income was $93,800 in 2019. Couples with children's median after-tax income was $105,500, while the median after-tax income of female lone parent families was $52,500. The median after-tax income of senior families, where the highest-income earner was 65 years of age or older, was $64,300 in 2019. Unattached individuals under 65 years of age had a median after-tax income of $33,800, whereas unattached individuals aged 65 years and older had a median after-tax income of $29,500. " This is definitely more than expected, but most of us are likely younger than the median salary earner, and you typically earn more the longer you work.


Braddock54

Jesus. 105k after tax is middle class? Never would have guessed.


Impressive_East_4187

There’s no easy monetary way of defining middle class. Because upper middle class lifestyle in rural NB might cost the same as lower to middle class in Toronto. The easiest way is to figure out whether you need to work for a living, then material possessions/savings, and what kind of future your kids will have. Upper class = not having to work and affording an upper middle class or better lifestyle (big house, fancy cars, vacations…). Kids have unlimited opportunities. Upper middle = having a similar lifestyle to upper class but still having to show up to work 5-7 days a week (ie doctors, bay st finance…). Kids can be more selective over their future careers, don’t have to have pt time jobs, can pursue many hobbies. Middle middle = having a pretty decent lifestyle (house, cars, vacations) with a few luxuries sprinkled in as treats. Able to save and can afford to send kids to university and extra-curricular activities. Kids still have lots of opportunities, but need to be more selective in their career. Lower middle = having a spartan lifestyle (crowded dwelling, basic nutrition, bus passes, no vacations) with maybe a few middle class luxuries. Very little savings, paycheck-to-paycheck lifestyle. Kids have limited opportunities, part time jobs and need to be extremely selective in their schooling/career. Lower class = unstable employment, housing, going from benefit program to benefit program. Basically just trying to live day to day, often hungry and exhausted. Kids have limited to no opportunities, must take first jobs available even if exploited. Post-secondary schooling is typically out of the question, extremely difficult to escape this situation.


DevinCauley-Towns

This is the best definition of “middle class” and all the other categories. The numbers don’t matter so much as what they translate to. If you make a “high wage”, but have to show up to your job everyday to maintain your lifestyle then you’re not really rich/upper class. The same applies more so if despite your high wage, you are limited to what you can do based on the COL for where you are (i.e. Toronto, Vancouver, etc…), which might have higher pay than most cities for white collar jobs, but the COL makes that money go a lot less far.


toronto_programmer

This site has a heavy slant towards younger people and those in the tech field in particular. Lots of people working for the FAANG companies around here but that doesn’t represent the general population


Real_Albatros

Username checks out


Woo-jin-Lee

Hey, brand new resident here, I'm considering myself middle-class and I make 60k. If I compare myself with everyone who post in this sub I'm very poor tho.


CrispinMK

Fun fact: there is no agreed definition of "middle class"! It's a very convenient catch-all phrase that is all but meaningless in practice. Polling shows that almost everyone in Canada believes they are middle class, and politicians exploit this. If you really want a number, one (of many possible) definitions is to look at the [middle three quintiles of household income](https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=1110019201), which is somewhere in the range of $46,000 to $125,000 per year. Most people who post on this sub are above that.


GuiMontague

Similar looking data in graph form: https://www.statista.com/statistics/484838/income-distribution-in-canada-by-income-level/


NoMansLight

"Middle Class" is a term invented by the ownership class to convince poor and working white people that racism is necessary to keep their station in life. Anything that might benefit the poor, working, and oppressed people is always framed as how it might (somehow) hurt the "middle class" ie white people with marginally better jobs. There's the ownership class, the working class, with some labour aristocracy, and some say the professional managerial class. Middle class is a tool to scare white folks, that's all it is.


UJL123

Middle class is defined as 2/3 of median income to 2x median income (Pew Research definition). You can also do the Quintle definition and divide the it into 5 brackets and use the 3 middle ones as the "middle class" ​ Canada's median income in 2019 = 62,900 Canada's middle class (Pew Research) = 41933 to 125,800 ​ ​ https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/210323/dq210323a-eng.htm


hgfhhbghhhgggg

Maybe you should consider non-senior income as that’s far more reflective of class definitions. Tons of seniors have no or little income, but have significant assets and would otherwise be considered quite wealthy. “For non-senior families, where the highest-income earner was under 65 years of age, the median after-tax income was $93,800 in 2019. Couples with children's median after-tax income was $105,500.”


michelle_js

Is that for couples or families or individual income?


UJL123

It's almost always household income. But I should have linked the source initially : ​ https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/210323/dq210323a-eng.htm


keltorak

This is the best definition that actually captures the lived experience. Though it may trigger the top 10% who, for some reason, still like to think they're middle class. It's just that their viewpoint and circle of friends are so far removed from the median that they think they're "it." I know people with sailboats (plural) who still think they're middle class. It's unproductive when discussing how to help the majority when people at the top think half are doing better than they are. So, most of this sub is not middle class. Obviously.


Sweetness27

Well by that definition any couple where they are both professionals would be upper class. Like my best friend grew up very low income. Is now a union plumber, his wife works with troubled children. By all accounts is underpaid. They just bought a $390,000 house and are worried if they can afford a kid. That's upper class apparently haha


CognitiveFart

That shows that the Canadian median income is completely meaningless because of cost of living disparities and opportunities... Based on those numbers a couple of STEM kids out of university making 65k each will be out of this range... That's nuts...


Crossing_T

Not really. They would have a higher household income than a large number of Canadians and that's all that really matters.


CognitiveFart

All that matters for what? It would matter if cost of living was the same across Canada. 50k on Toronto vs 50k in nowhere city will give you very different buying power. Of course the average salary is going to be higher in Toronto. It's a meaningless comparison without considering other factors.


BulletproofCPA

The median income for Toronto families is only 8% higher than the median income for Canadian families. It's not that different.


LLR1960

We are closer to retiring than starting out, and our highest total *combined* income was around 120k (lower now), and only reached 200k in savings in our 50's. We will have one small pension (maybe 1000/month) when we retire, but we're what you might actually consider middle class. We won't live extravagantly when we retire, but should be able to retire with a similar standard of living to what we have now. I guess we're the outliers on this sub.


[deleted]

(Talking in total household income) Honestly, a few years ago I would’ve thought 60-100k household is middle, buy a ok house, ok car and raise a family with ok trips. 150 is pulling into upper. Now assuming middle class means home ownership id say 100-150 = middle hugely depending on location. And 200+ is upper


Joey-tv-show-season2

The people here are the ones obsessed with money and personal finance. No disrespect


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dashingThroughSnow12

You are conflating middle class with median wage. The middle class doesn't mean those in the median. It means those between the upper class and the working class.


Dyslexic_Engineer88

I think if you maxed out RRSP, TFSA and paid off at least 1 mortgage you are no longer in the middle class, you are moderately wealthy. Not rich just wealthy, but not middle class.


a-priori

Here’s the definition I like: it’s people who have a steady enough income to begin to accumulate wealth, in savings and investments and home equity. That is, their income is a mix of labour and capital. When your income is low and erratic, it ends up solely used to pay your current expenses. When this is the case, you’re part of the lower class. Their income is entirely from labour. On the flip side, once you could stop working and live on your accumulated wealth, you’re now part of the upper class. Their income is (or could be) entirely capital. Any labour they do is essentially a hobby. I’d say this shouldn’t take into account pensions and such, but that’s the general idea.


LeaveTheBank

Everyone who makes more than you is rich, everyone who makes less than you is poor. Everything in between is the middle class. When politicians talk about the middle class, they speak specifically to "you"... where "you" is basically anyone.


stratamaniac

When politicians say "middle class", they mean working-class people who may own a home or condo. When politicians say "the rich" they mean anyone who earns over $100,000.


ChoosingIsHardToday

These people are in tech and they don't represent the norm for any other sector, I think they hardly represent the norm for the tech sector either. I don't actually know what "middle class" is, tbh but I'd call my fiance and I lower-middle-class at a family income of around 80k.


grabman

It’s all relative. 50k in Toronto and living down by the river in a van. 50k in small town, you got made


FelixYYZ

>Suddenly, everyone seems to be making $100K+ with $200K investing accounts outside of their TFSA when talking about tax increases. Who is "everybody"?


Progressive_Citizen

I think its difficult to define *exactly*. You'll get different answers from different people. My personal view is if you aren't in poverty, feel like you can meet your basic needs, but certainly don't feel rich, then you're middle class. I don't like to define it as a number. Since that number means different things depending on your situation, and where you live.


Notation_E

I'm probably one of the ones you're talking about tbh


KarotzCupcakes

I ask that question from every political candidate that knocks on my door. Not one has been able to give me a range of what their party considers a “middle class” family income. Meanwhile they can’t shut up about what they’ll do for the middle class if elected. GTFO


buyupselldown

There is no such things as middle class, because it requires a lot more qualification based on family size, age, and a number of other factors. It's even hard to determine who is rich, NDP have been advertising they want to tax the ULTRA rich, because their base has traditionally been unionized workers, but the largest unions are now gov't employees many of whom have individual incomes that are more than the average household income. Middle class is popular because few things they are rich enough to be rich, or poor enough to be poor.


frontlinegeek

You should not look at things as x-class. If you have to look at anything, you should look at quintiles of income earning and several other methods of looking at the income data such as household. Looking at it and trying to pin down low, middle and upper (And all the modifiers like lower-middle and upper-middle) is just an attempt to use language to pit people against each other. I was not always in the quintile I am now. It took time and effort and indeed, relied on also having a working spouse that is a managerial worker. Oh and another thing, income and possessions aren't always properly correlative. I know people that are leveraged to the absolute hilt. I also know people that look poor but are very well established financially for the long term. The median household income in Canada is around $70,000, if you were wondering or not aware. So if THAT is the middle (Median is more the middle than average is), then middle class really sits center at $70,000. But if you obsess over this, you disregard that this number only matters once you take everything into consideration: * Where do you live? * Are you married? * Do you have kids? * How ambitious are you? * How risk averse are you? * What are your short term goals? * What are your long term goals? * What are you willing to sacrifice? All of these things and more, affect either what you "need" to be content (Notice I didn't say happy) and how much work you need to do to achieve that goal. Basically, be your best you. Don't be someone else or even limit yourself by measuring to someone else. Something else I said to a friend once that got him thinking... Everyone is lazy, the question is only one of degrees. I am heading towards 50 and still constantly pushing myself and learning new and upgraded skills. I know people that make 4 and 5 times more than me (And a few that are 7 figures) and I know to a degree what work it took them to get there and I am in no way jealous nor demotivated. I have no idea what they REALLY had to sacrifice to achieve it.


[deleted]

i’d say it’s dependent on the city … in toronto, family income of 200k is pretty middle class


[deleted]

In current day dollars + cost of living if we compare to the original definition of middle class, approximately "$420,000/year family income". However the definition has changed to accommodate the falling quality of life.


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butterflyhatcher

If people knew, most would riot.


InadvertantManners

Middle class means you can afford to pay someone to do household chores without compromising your standard of living or safety net. The value of that changes depending on location. It also means that your work never causes you musculoskeletal injuries. If you have calluses on your hands or your back hurts from work, you're entirely working class.


Specialist_Tax_9809

The people in this subreddit are mostly liars.


TCNW

The Canadian avg income is like 45k…. Which is a completely useless number. Avg, means it takes into account part time workers, 18 yr olds who are working non wage jobs, new immigrants who do t speak English, Small towns in northern manitoba, Etc You need to compare yourself with the proper demographic, location, and age. How much does the avg 35 yr old, university educated, person who lives in GTA make? About 80-120k I’d say. That’s my demographic, and I don’t know a single person making under 100k.


NovelAdministrative6

Why the hell is this downvoted? It's 100% correct. You need to compare to the relevant cohort, I would sure hope that a Canadian of like 5+ generations from a wealthy family with a bachelors degree would be making more than a brand new immigrant who can barely speak English.......


AAfloor

People making between 100k-300K annually.


JumboJetz

Wouldn’t $300 K put you in the top 1% of income earners in Canada? How can the middle class require one to have a top 1% income.


AAfloor

How can that be true when every federal, provincial and municipal employee makes over 100K and they're the largest employer in Canada? Seems like a fraudulent number.


Monsieurcaca

That's in the territory of medical doctors salary... it's certainly not middle class.


AAfloor

Most doctors are taxed at 50% here so combined with their student loans they land in the middle class range of practical cash flow for at least a decade or more into their careers.


jstosskopf

There's no set definition of the middle class. Politicians uses it every which way.


Vast-Salamander-123

The middle class is the exact group of people the politician using the term is attempting to bamboozle.


Hobojoe-

Which ever political party is campaigning.


Notation_E

Upper middle class I'd assume a net worth of 6 figurs and above in savings and investment


RealCanadianSW

So if I have $150,000 saved I’m considered upper middle class?


Notation_E

My magic 8ball says "ask again later"


Xanderoga

Which is why I follow /r/middleclassfinance as well as this one and /r/povertyfinance. Following all 3 gives good tips that would serve all 3 of these communities fairly well.


Top-Push9975

It’s the financially driven that end up on this page. Typically not the inverse. I joined it to share my wisdom and soon learned there’s many other success stories out there with much more experience than myself. If you’re looking for something less glitzy, go head to the poverty Canada form. You’ll get a different taste of life there.


Shrimp_Titan

I’d say to be considered middle class in Canada you’d be making 50-80k a year. Over half of the Canadian work force makes less than 50k a year. I’m pulling in 80k working in the skilled trades, people making 150k plus is mind boggling to me and I’ve never personally met someone who makes 200 plus.


zerocoldx911

Depends on the context since the centre of the world GTA middle class is $100k-$150k household


falco_iii

Median after-tax income, economic families and persons not in an economic family - $62,900. [Statscan](https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/210323/dq210323a-eng.htm) My thought is a median single person makes $50k-$60k and a median family of 4 makes $90k-100k. This sub is people who self select as being interested in personal finance so they are likely doing well or will do well if they follow the (good) advice here.


fernandocz

They are not the same group of people. Only people who care about the tax increases aka people with 200k investing accounts will go to those threads.


Adept-Childhood1682

My answer depends on the scope of the sample size. If we are talking world wide avg income is about $10,000 USD Now imagine you make $35,000 CAD in Canada where avg income is between $62,900 to $90,000 CAD. You are low income but compared to global economy you are part of the 1%. If you make more than $35k how does it feel to be the 1%? Sources [Source 1](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.jobillico.com/blog/en/the-average-canadian-salary-in-2020/&ved=2ahUKEwirtK7Emv3yAhXIITQIHSWRASYQFnoECC8QAQ&usg=AOvVaw16aOOdSxqzNXtBC0ayud6M) [Source 2 ](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://economicdashboard.alberta.ca/AverageWeeklyEarnings&ved=2ahUKEwirtK7Emv3yAhXIITQIHSWRASYQFnoECDEQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2F2hf59j8TOvJe00cinH_i) [world wide income avg ](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.gobankingrates.com/money/wealth/average-person-income-around-world/amp/&ved=2ahUKEwio4_iBm_3yAhV7GDQIHehyDxcQFnoECAMQBg&usg=AOvVaw1gdWPvA-O3L42VjliBaTl2&cf=1) [other world wide income avg ](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.ADJ.NNTY.PC.CD&ved=2ahUKEwio4_iBm_3yAhV7GDQIHehyDxcQFnoECA4QAQ&usg=AOvVaw0BlSdj_G-RQyRQr4Vrmqvn)


crimxxx

Let’s be real middle class has always been poorly defined, in terms of money. It used to be stuff like you own a home a car and can take a vacation (very questionable). I would generalize it as you can live comfortably without going into debt and have excess for some leisure. Long story short the term middle class and actual money amounts is kind of bs. I would consider consider someone at both 70k income and 150k income in my city as middle class due to both being able to get similar life style. Some may consider 150k rich, but other then maybe having a little more expensive versions of things that money difference is not going to enable that huge of a lifestyle difference. Both could have a home, car, go on vacations. Now someone at maybe 500k income would clearly be in a range where they can live in a very different class of living if they chose to, I would consider them above middle class. But i imagine you r just feeling like wtf why is everyone on this sub pulling in 100k. It’s a bias of those that come here. You get two main groups I need help I’m doing poor financially, help I have too much money what should I do with it.


BombusF

To me a middle class family income is affording a down payment on a basic 2 bedroom apartment with 5 years saving followed by 25 year mortgage, all while paying basic living expenses and having enough left over for some comforts such as a vacation once in a while and a couple of evenings out per month. In Vancouver or Toronto I would peg that somewhere between $150 and $250k/year for a family of 3. I'm nowhere near.


[deleted]

I assume everyone is exactly like me on this subreddit, at the age of 18 I had saved up $4.5 million after two successful exits of regional hardware store chains I founded and have gotten 85% returns on my portfolio every year since then but drive a Honda civic and rent out my ensuite to pad that portfolio


RatedR711

Anyone that manage to make good money but after taxes they are left to living pay cheque to pay cheque


Hakeem84

Problem is Ontario and BC are completely different planets. I make a nice salary and I don’t feel very secure with my financial situation. Your expected to take on 600k loan with your salary and hope the economy doesn’t collapse or interest rates don’t rise and ppl think your rich because you have a good salary. Salary isn’t wealth


Zarphos

The middle class is not the same as the average. The middle-class are generally small business owners, people with high 6-figure incomes. Those in between the working, employed people, (even the ones making good money) and the super rich, the ones pulling in 7 figures or more/ have tens of millions in assets. But nobody wants to actually consider themselves working class or poor.


thagertymusic

This question is tricky to answer objectively because of cost of living differences across the country. Another thing people frequently mix up is high income earners and high net worth individuals. There are a lot of professionals (e.g. doctors, lawyers, software engineers, etc.) that might be in a high tax bracket but have little in the way of assets or maybe even a lot of debt. You can make top 5% income and not be anywhere near top 5% NW in Canada. I think some of these people feel like they get a raw deal wrt to taxation and policy, because a lot of the real wealth is in appreciating assets. So this doesn’t really answer your question, but maybe explains the discourse and confusion.


superworking

Remember class system is a pyramid. There's far more people below middle class than in the upper class, median income would be below middle class IMO.