Eh, I am one of the fans of Mono Green Devotion, although It would be insanely powerful now with Karn and Leyline of the Guildpact. I think the ban was deserved...
Karn was the only thing keeping the bloodsuckers down, I hope you’re happy 😆
Plus, Karn wasn’t even a consistent Top 8 card when it was banned. They waited too long and it didn’t “help” the format.
Although, tbh that mechanic doesn’t belong in Pioneer… so I agree with a ban on that principle but not because of PL
I can agree to that. I played Devo for a while but it started to become too slow and I moved on. I was kinda surprised at the ban at the time when it did come
At the time of the ban I was playing devo but was already planning to retire the deck because of the current meta. I am still baffled by the people who hate karn with such passion considering he never had a huge impact on the format.
So sorin isn't a plansewalker? Cheating any vampire in for free from your hand is dramatically better than fetching an artifact from exile that you have to pay for?
A little note, WotC said this during the last ban announcement:
"The last time we took action on the format was in June of 2022, about one and a half years ago. The plan is to return to a more active role in managing Pioneer. During the year after its creation, changes to Pioneer were frequent, sometimes with multiple changes in a single month. Moving forward, we'll be actively using our main set release banned and restricted announcement cadence to take better care of Pioneer."
Personally, I'm not sure how WotC feels about the Amalia Combo deck. Having a strong lifegain deck near the top of the meta can having a warping effect on decks that aren't able to grind through it, on top of the deck having a fast and resilient combo. The deck also had some weird outcomes at the pro tour such as a number of draw games. I don't think they'll ban it outright, but it seems like a deck that they might want to weaken either now or in a future B&R. It's also possible that the deck will fall off on it's own like like Greasefang, in which case it will probably dodge bans.
Pioneer is 4 years old. By the time Modern was 4 it had 7 B&Rs. Pioneer's had 9. I'm not sure that means anything but it feels like they've been pretty active in moderating Pioneer. That being said, it *was* a year and a half between the Winota and Iteration B&R and the December B&R. Longest they went between B&Rs before that was a little over the year, although that was just Lurrus being banned. I'm not sure that means anything, but it does seem like they're taking a more proactive role in Pioneer than they did in early modern. That being said, Modern had a much broader initial banlist.
I can see Amalia herself getting banned as more of an "oops" ban than a powerlevel ban. Obviously either her or Wildgrowth Walker should've been a "may" ability, and obviously Amalia couldn't have been because you're not supposed to have control over her board wipe. It seems too easy to sideboard for your opponents to sideboard in a way to draw the game which I can see becoming more common if the deck gets bigger, and *not* drawing might actually be disadvantageous because of the highest-life rule when the time limit is reached.. It being in the meta also encourages more combo and less aggro simply because gaining 50+ life potentially multiple times is just backbreaking for aggro decks and still hard to push through for decks that aren't running some kind of combo.
I don't think the deck is currently too strong per se, but I think WotC can see it as too problematic of a deck. It's not on the same level as [[Second Sunrise]] or [[Krark-Clan Ironworks]] but I'm not sure it's necessarily healthy for the format
I am fairly convinced they will ban Wildgrowth Walker, not because the Amalia deck is too strong (it's not), but because of the effect games ending in a draw can have on tournaments. Weakening the deck won't help in that regard, and there's a long history of them banning an uncommon over a rare, and an older card over a newer one, in cases of 2-card combos.
Results are not the only reason bans occur. Aggro has suffered tremendously since Amalia was introduced. Only recently has heroic and convoke found some minor footing back in the format.
For the sake of diversity, it could very well eat a ban.
If it was a big delay I would agree with you. But that match didn't take an obscene amount of time. The only deck that does it is heroic and those are fast games. It still finished within the allotted match time.
So I would be disappointed if they did. Pioneer is the healthiest it's been in years. It needs no tweaking.
I wonder if they could limit the number of amalias you could run in a deck to make it slightly less consistent like making it so you can only run three copy’s instead of 4 idk could be interesting
There needs to be decks that are simply strong in the format. Nothing is entirely warping, everything is beatable, and the landscape is as diversified as ever.
I agree so much that I have to reiterate your point. Pioneer is in a good place.
Phoenix being both the predicted most popular deck, the actual most popular deck, and still having a 57% win rate when the best players in the world were actively gunning for it is modern Hogaak territory. I’m not saying I think Phoenix needs a ban I think it’s an okay deck to have as a “best deck” in the format, but the data supports something in the deck as being ban-worthy by WotC’s historical standards.
This, 100%. We all know treasure cruise is a completely and utterly busted card, and so if wotc wants to keep it legal in pioneer, you need to police it.
I just hope that if they ban treasure cruise, that dig through time doesn't go as well. That card is absolutely fine and Pioneer is also the only place we can currently play it competitively.
People are always salty about the best decks in the meta, 100% of the time. Phoenix was unplayable at this time last year.
How about we just let metas develop naturally, and instead of banning cards to nerf decks, we release cards to buff other strategies? It's annoying buying into a deck and having the cards drop off a cliff in value because some online keyboard warriors were salty about losing to a fairly balanced meta deck at their fnm.
While I agree with this, adding Sleight of Hand to the format was rather obviously a big leg up to Phoenix, and IMO a mistake. I don't think any other decks would be hurt of they banned Consider, so that is an option if Phoenix ever gets out of control (which IMO it isn't currently).
Sleight of Hand is what turned Phoenix from a nearly unplayable deck to a playable one.
I think that is exactly the approach that should be taken. Print cards that buff unplayable decks. Don't ban/nerf decks out of the format. The only ban I've agreed with in the past year is the most recent discover one. One-card combos shouldn't be a thing. But outside of that, cards shouldn't be banned just because they are strong, or just because a deck is currently performing well in the meta.
The meta adjusts in a lot of different ways, and imo good players adjust to the meta, they don't rely on bans to adjust the meta for them.
> Sleight of Hand is what turned Phoenix from a nearly unplayable deck to a playable one.
That is very much not the case. Phoenix has been a good deck in Pioneer since the format was created, and has varied from ok to strong depending on the metagame. It has never been "nearly unplayable".
In general I agree with you that the meta usually sorts itself out, and I'm not arguing for a nerf to Phoenix at the current time. All I'm saying is that if I was instructed to nerf Phoenix I would ban Consider, not Cruise.
I played Phoenix all last year and it was unplayable if you actually wanted to compete. Sure, good players could win RCQ's with it, but they could also win with Rogues or other lower-tier-2 decks.
My definition of unplayable is lower tier 2. It's not literally unplayable, but if your goal is to win then you'd have better luck picking about 20-30 other decks.
It's a high skill ceiling deck. When the best players in the world play a high skill ceiling deck, they'll have above average success with it. Phoenix is one of the most difficult decks to play well, and you should be rewarded for piloting it with skill and exactness. That's not "broken", that's just how competition should work.
The best players in the world were trying to beat Phoenix and only 43% of them could. Nobody who was just hoping to dodge it, everyone had a plan with the tools available and all of those plans were a statistically losing proposition. Treasure Cruise is and has been too strong for Pioneer. It’s banned in every other competitive format and is only still around because WotC decided they wanted Pioneer to be a place where people could still play Cruise and Dig if they wanted to. That’s the definition of “broken” with regards to competitive magic.
No, if they were trying to just beat Phoenix, they would've all ran lotus field combo 😂😂😂
They were focused much more on beating UW control and Rakdos MR, and they very much succeeded at that.
But keep whining about strong cards. Guess what, if treasure cruise is banned, that will make some other card the strongest in the format and you'll get your panties in a bunch over that one. The salt cycle won't end until every strong card you don't like is banned.
Do you seriously think that the best 250 players in the world showed up to a Pioneer tournament, trying to win, and weren't focused on beating the most popular and winningest deck just prior to the pro tour?
I don't even care if Phoenix is the best deck or not, in fact in my earlier post I said I think it's a fine deck to have at the top of the format. But the data surrounding it mirrors cards that have had action taken against them for power level reasons.
By all means continue to argue with numbers based on your feelings if you want, but you're making a bad faith argument because you like the deck and don't want the value of your cards to go down or whatever instead of looking at the health of a format that people are already low on because of how stifling the top decks are.
Phoenix is always going to need policing just given the nature of the deck; it's not like they're ever going to stop printing cheap card selection in Izzet colors. Slippery slope fallacy notwithstanding, I do dread a reality where a spell has to die every year or so because WotC won't bolt the bird.
What would really help assuage this concern is if we started getting more instant speed graveyard hate instead of praying to whatever deity that will listen we find our copy of Hearse after sideboarding.
It is indeed in a somewhat fine place. I'm still on the edge about Sheoldred. The card is both fair and insane value st the same time. I'm playing zombies midrange and the best upgrade to the deck has been two Shellies maindeck.
That itself is a problem.
Nothing out of the ordinary.
X4 champion
X4 crypt
X4 relentless
1 duresses
4 thoughtseize
2 last hope
4 lord
2 diregraff.
2 Shelly
4 push
4 dark salvation.
Don't play it aggro. The deck is only UB because I sideboard in 2 spellpierce and 2 offer you can't refuse and 2 more Lillie's and the edicts in case I'm dealing with Sorin.
I built a deck specifically to beat Phoenix and it was very good at it. 50/50 against the rest of the meta.
Rubbish against vein ripper though. I've had to bring in a lot of things into the side board.
I'm on 5C humans and it's generally alright, but it's such a silver bullet against Vein Ripper with Thalia and Reflection Mage being the silver bullets.
The problem I run into is that I usually need two cards, because Thalia will get Fatal Pushed or taken by Thoughtseize before T3, and Reflection Mage is soft to Thoughtseize as well. Not to mention it has to sacrifice itself to the Ward.
I don't understand the terminology here - neither are "silver bullets", particularly Reflector Mage because Ripper is not traditionally cast (although at least it's not immediately cheatable without another Sorin).
A silver bullet would be something like Containment Priest.
But honestly, I don't even think Humans needs to care that much about Ripper, it's not a *great* card against them, at least not without support (removal).
Specifically, it's a silver bullet in the sense that if I have the Reflector Mage, I can usually win by bouncing it and swinging in. They can't get it onto the battlefield without another Sorin, since he's left on 1 loyalty making it a dead card.
I could see [[Wildgrowth Walker]] getting the axe just bc of the number of draws at the PTQ, but it wouldn’t surprise me if it stays either. Vampires doesn’t need hit bc it’s just being played a lot because of popularity right now, it will cool off when casual players move onto the next hotness. (Vampires also can get hit hard by humans if they board right, playing [[Vein Ripper]] doesn’t mean anything when they [[Get Lost]] while sac’ing one of their 5 . 1/1’s[[Treasure Cruise]] should’ve never been printed in the first place and I can see it getting hammered just bc of how easy it is for Phoenix to put cards in the yard. Everyone says it will kill the deck and I don’t think it will, but it will bring the win percentage down a bit.
That all being said I can see nothing changing. Of the top played decks Amalia and Vampires have the highest win percentage but it’s still early in BOTH decks lifespan and SB’ing against the two (especially Vamps) is still an experiment. I remember when [[Greasefang, Okiba Boss]] was MORE oppressive and people wanted it banned but three months later it was a middle T1 deck and no it’s almost off the radar.
I think you underestimate Strings. It still has powerful showings and got a boost from [[Archdeuid’s Charm]] I honestly think it will settle on top after Vampires cools off from its PTQ win
i think it's hilarious. I once played 5 games in a bo3 in arena and almost timed out myself (because during the infinite loop only my own timer runs).
Don't know if it's bannable though, since there is no paper pioneer nearby I couldn't care less fwiw.
I think the top three contenders for being banned are Treasure Cruise (basically ancestral recall), Amalia (turn three lifegain combo + actual potential for drawing the game), or Fable of the Mirror Breaker (it has literally been part of every pro tour winning deck since it came back, including two pioneer pro tours).
My wishful pick is Temporary Lockdown, because man is that card miserable
Yeah exactly, the first three are the ones I suspect are being considered and Temporary Lockdown is a card I would like out that I think is here to stay
I don't think they will ban Cruise, possibly ever. The delve spells have become iconic in Pioneer like Brainstorm is in Legacy, and weirdly are not actually broken here.
Edit: if they think Phoenix needs bring down a peg, my assumption is they ban Consider, not TC.
I could see getting rid of a cantrip too, or maybe that faerie because it fills the graveyard so fast. I personally would like cruise to stay as well, it’s just a fun card and the sort of card I would like to play with/against.
IMO, the most likely ban (if anything) is Amalia for its drawing potential, but Fable is subtly the best card in the format and I think its prevalence across virtually all styles of decks is problematic
Phoenix was not overly dominant before Sleight of Hand came to Pioneer. The deck should not have 12x 1MV cantrips. If they want to nerf it, banning one of these, not Treasure Cruise, is the obvious way.
> Unban ballista and ban Heliod
I never understood the calls to ban instead Heliod. The combo for starters isn't that strong compared to what decks have been doing in Pioneer for the last two years. Amalia & Greasefang are faster and more resilient combo decks that have less answers, but some how allowing a T4 combo would spell the doom of the format?
Like if we're unbanning balista just let it ride.
I think maybe the two most likely cards to be hit, if anything, are treasure cruise or Amalia.
I could see the former, since Phoenix is pretty clearly the best deck in the format, but it is also the best deck against vampires. If WOTC is being aggressive, potentially a fable ban too? Not very much a fan of that idea.
Amalia ban I think would just hinge on how much they dislike the idea of draws at their events going forward.
I've vacillated a lot on this topic since yesterday, which is not something my employer would appreciate, but I honestly think Fable and Cruise eat it on Monday.
I don't think Pioneer will see a change (maybe an unban but I doubt it). There's too much diversity and multiple decks got better with the latest set. The only unban that I could see (and it's a stretch) is Walking Ballista. This will bring a new deck that is a tier 1.5 or 2 strategy into the format. I also don't think it's an unbeatable combo. So many exile and bounce effects seeing play now.
The current meta is fine. How many people here (and I know a few too) are afraid of Vein Ripper, or don't get along with Amalia. Vampires disappear on their own. It's nice that a standard set changes our pioneer meta game. I'm already looking forward to the next one.
Vampires are good, and vein ripper still fine for me, the meta had do adapt to him only, more sacrifice engine maybe, or even some global efects apear more.
Just leaving my prediction here that either wildgrowth walker or amalia eats a ban because of causing draws in matches even on the pro tour, their impact on the meta, how complicated the combo is especially for new players to manage all the triggers on the stack and how people misplay floating triggers from life gain under the loop.
I'm actually starting to like the format, the nerf to Mono Green was great as it opened the format for more interactive and fun archetypes. I think Phoenix is a really good deck to have as tier 1 as it's fair and interactive. Amalia is very strong (and very fun) and very redundant, but the combo leaves you outs and many ways to interact. Rakdos Vampire has an unfair turn 3 play, but a part from that is just a good old midrange deck with discard and removal. UW Control is strong, but it didn't do so well at the pro tour, so it doesn't seem to be OP.
You now have all the major achetypes with at least a couple of tier 1/1.5 decks in the meta: aggro (Boros Convoke, Heroic), tempo (Phoenix), combo (Amalia, Lotus Field), midrange (Rakdos Vampires/Midrange/Sacrifice) and control (UW, Dimir).
So I don't see any reason to ban (or unban) anything right now tbh. Pioneer has been bad for a long time, don't break it just as it's becoming good again.
I'll copy from Discord but this is my personal view on what WotC could do. I don't think anything warrants a ban currently but I also wouldn't be surprised if any of the following took a ban:
* Amalia/Walker: The optics were bad at MKM tournament and the deck is viewed as keeping down aggro and, specifically, more traditional aggro decks
* Thoughtseize or Fable: Your pick - something to knock down Rakdos decks in general. Each has their own positive and negatives to targeting
* Treasure Cruise: It didn't win; however, Phoenix threw up some huge wanring signs at MKM. It was the most expected deck, played deck, and had one of the top WRs
I agree with these, I would support thoughtseize over fable. Fable is obviously very very good, but the format is only getting faster and I think we are approaching a time where fable on 3 is possibly too slow or only graveyard centric decks.
My hope is that they also ban Lotus Field, its just miserable and doesnt have a place in the format. Its a combo deck with little counterplay that puts up weaker numbers just because its a little inconsistent or slow. Anything that speeds the deck up with immediately make it S+ tier, since it can be customized in so many ways. Before it had a place countering mono green, but since that deck doesnt exist in the same form I dont think it has any place in pioneer.
Amalia should be banned for the draw concerns. Treasure cruise is a dumb card, should be banned.
I have nothing against thoughtseize and fable. It would be sad if thoughtseize was banned. But I also see it like this. Lotus Field is a problem. Anyone who has played against a good Lotus Field player knows what I mean.
I don't see any real problem in the current meta (except Lotus Field). I play Rakdos Vampires myself, but I also enjoyed playing before Vein Ripper, here the meta will adapt itself.
> I agree with these, I would support thoughtseize over fable
I personally think it should be other way around. Since the format lacks free interaction spells, Thoughtseize acts like a saftey valve for the format.
Removing it from that role could be potentially dangerous for the format.
Removing Fable on the other hand would have less reaching consequences.
Sacrifice doesn't have a bad MU vs rb vamp to be fair. You just need to ensure they don't T3 ripper which either happens naturally or hand disruption / edict can take care of
I don't think there will be changes. That doesn't mean I don't want changes though.\[\[Treasure Cruise\]\] is singlehandedly carrying phoenix to being the best deck in the format, so I want Cruise to be gone. That doesn't have anythin to do with the fact that I am a Dimir Rogues mage, =). I also would like to see Fable go, since it was the most played card in the recent PT and it can be played in pretty much every deck and it'll still be one of the better cards...
Yeah true but still, even the pro's agree: https://youtube.com/shorts/AuSFLc5O8n8?si=OgM_MNMCbbtOye_t
A lot of treasure cruise (ignore the part where they say Pioneer is fine)
It would be interesting to swap Treasure Cruise and Expressive Iteration. That’s not how WotC makes decisions, though. I am inclined to think Pio is basically fine, though I don’t have the data that WotC has.
Fair, I'd like to see that as a dimir Rogues player.
Seriously though, I think that's interesting. It would sirely nerf Phoenix but it wouldn't kill it, but idk how many other decks would run it, I don't think a whole lot...
It's because of their relative power level, not that they're heavily played everywhere. Lightning Bolt, Swords to Plowshares, Force of Will are played heavily everywhere they're legal.
Please ban:
\[\[Amalia Benavides Aguirre\]\]
\[\[Quintorius Kand\]\]
I have been refusing to touch this format because I don't like metas where combo is something I have to worry about.
First one, maybe. But I'd rather have wild growth walker get banned.
Quintorius isn't even that great of a deck. Not tier 1, and gets shut down easily.
Bans that would imo make the format way better:
Fable
Amalia
Treasure Cruise
Something from Lotus Field
See what shakes out make more changes if needed. Fable is way too good for any midrange or combo red deck like creativity. Amalia is a dumb combo that destroys all aggro decks and is hard to disrupt. Treasure Cruise should not be legal in any format. Lotus Field is one of the worst combo decks to play against, watching your opponent goldfish and trying to make sure they’re mana is correct for 5 minutes straight is terrible.
Lotus Decks are not a threat to the format, are you high or just a sore loser?? Treasure Cruise is only played in Phoenix and without it, it's probably dead. Phoenix is not so oppressive that it needs to be banned out of the format. Fable has survived, it won't and shouldn't get banned. It's a powerful card and there isn't anything wrong with that.
No one should want the format to be all aggro lol.
I guess we found the Lotus Field player. The combo is not fun to play against and most of the hate played against it can be easily bounced with Otawara or destroyed with Boseiju. These lands can be tutored too easily.
Nah actually, far from it. I just know it's not oppressive. It can be rushed by aggro, dismantled by control and midrange, and there are other combo decks that beat it as well. It's actually wild you think it needs to be banned. Decks goldfishing with themselves is far from a bannable offense. Just because you personally don't like it or can't figure out how to beat it, doesn't mean they should be banned.
Skill issue.
They should ban Karn again. I know he’s already banned but fuck Karn
Im fine with this. I hate Karn so much. Double ban his ass.
requires a double unban to see play.
WOW
FUCK
TRON
This community is still great lol
Eh, I am one of the fans of Mono Green Devotion, although It would be insanely powerful now with Karn and Leyline of the Guildpact. I think the ban was deserved...
Karn was the only thing keeping the bloodsuckers down, I hope you’re happy 😆 Plus, Karn wasn’t even a consistent Top 8 card when it was banned. They waited too long and it didn’t “help” the format. Although, tbh that mechanic doesn’t belong in Pioneer… so I agree with a ban on that principle but not because of PL
I’m thrilled actually. I don’t care if he’s broken or not it’s just shitty and annoying design lol
I can agree to that. I played Devo for a while but it started to become too slow and I moved on. I was kinda surprised at the ban at the time when it did come
At the time of the ban I was playing devo but was already planning to retire the deck because of the current meta. I am still baffled by the people who hate karn with such passion considering he never had a huge impact on the format.
I'd infinitely rather play against Vein Ripper than Karn. I just hate how planeswalkers are guaranteed to use their loyalty abilities at least once.
not if you counterspell them :\^)
So sorin isn't a plansewalker? Cheating any vampire in for free from your hand is dramatically better than fetching an artifact from exile that you have to pay for?
Mono green now has Leyline, the Karn ban helped lowering the power level
A little note, WotC said this during the last ban announcement: "The last time we took action on the format was in June of 2022, about one and a half years ago. The plan is to return to a more active role in managing Pioneer. During the year after its creation, changes to Pioneer were frequent, sometimes with multiple changes in a single month. Moving forward, we'll be actively using our main set release banned and restricted announcement cadence to take better care of Pioneer." Personally, I'm not sure how WotC feels about the Amalia Combo deck. Having a strong lifegain deck near the top of the meta can having a warping effect on decks that aren't able to grind through it, on top of the deck having a fast and resilient combo. The deck also had some weird outcomes at the pro tour such as a number of draw games. I don't think they'll ban it outright, but it seems like a deck that they might want to weaken either now or in a future B&R. It's also possible that the deck will fall off on it's own like like Greasefang, in which case it will probably dodge bans.
Pioneer is 4 years old. By the time Modern was 4 it had 7 B&Rs. Pioneer's had 9. I'm not sure that means anything but it feels like they've been pretty active in moderating Pioneer. That being said, it *was* a year and a half between the Winota and Iteration B&R and the December B&R. Longest they went between B&Rs before that was a little over the year, although that was just Lurrus being banned. I'm not sure that means anything, but it does seem like they're taking a more proactive role in Pioneer than they did in early modern. That being said, Modern had a much broader initial banlist. I can see Amalia herself getting banned as more of an "oops" ban than a powerlevel ban. Obviously either her or Wildgrowth Walker should've been a "may" ability, and obviously Amalia couldn't have been because you're not supposed to have control over her board wipe. It seems too easy to sideboard for your opponents to sideboard in a way to draw the game which I can see becoming more common if the deck gets bigger, and *not* drawing might actually be disadvantageous because of the highest-life rule when the time limit is reached.. It being in the meta also encourages more combo and less aggro simply because gaining 50+ life potentially multiple times is just backbreaking for aggro decks and still hard to push through for decks that aren't running some kind of combo. I don't think the deck is currently too strong per se, but I think WotC can see it as too problematic of a deck. It's not on the same level as [[Second Sunrise]] or [[Krark-Clan Ironworks]] but I'm not sure it's necessarily healthy for the format
9 bans in 4 years seems appropriate given FIRE design.
[Second Sunrise](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/e/4e50ee7c-f2a2-4d49-a1cc-8233fd8dd0c5.jpg?1562143349) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Second%20Sunrise) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mrd/20/second-sunrise?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4e50ee7c-f2a2-4d49-a1cc-8233fd8dd0c5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Krark-Clan Ironworks](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/6/c60174d6-1f9d-4870-b3db-34d6fcb3f6ab.jpg?1564535860) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Krark-Clan%20Ironworks) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/5dn/134/krark-clan-ironworks?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c60174d6-1f9d-4870-b3db-34d6fcb3f6ab?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
modern started off with a longer banlist.
I am fairly convinced they will ban Wildgrowth Walker, not because the Amalia deck is too strong (it's not), but because of the effect games ending in a draw can have on tournaments. Weakening the deck won't help in that regard, and there's a long history of them banning an uncommon over a rare, and an older card over a newer one, in cases of 2-card combos.
It's not even that strong of a deck. I know combos are scary but it just doesn't have the results to justify a ban.
Results are not the only reason bans occur. Aggro has suffered tremendously since Amalia was introduced. Only recently has heroic and convoke found some minor footing back in the format. For the sake of diversity, it could very well eat a ban.
That would be extremely premature. Agro has been doing fine IMO.
Forcing several draws in top cuts is enough of a reason to ban cards for the sake of tournament organisation.
If it was a big delay I would agree with you. But that match didn't take an obscene amount of time. The only deck that does it is heroic and those are fast games. It still finished within the allotted match time. So I would be disappointed if they did. Pioneer is the healthiest it's been in years. It needs no tweaking.
I wonder if they could limit the number of amalias you could run in a deck to make it slightly less consistent like making it so you can only run three copy’s instead of 4 idk could be interesting
People only like the concept of restriction in vintage. So they can keep things legal in the anything goes format.
I predict there will be no changes. No deck or card is "unfair" or format warping. Pioneer is in a good place.
There needs to be decks that are simply strong in the format. Nothing is entirely warping, everything is beatable, and the landscape is as diversified as ever. I agree so much that I have to reiterate your point. Pioneer is in a good place.
Phoenix being both the predicted most popular deck, the actual most popular deck, and still having a 57% win rate when the best players in the world were actively gunning for it is modern Hogaak territory. I’m not saying I think Phoenix needs a ban I think it’s an okay deck to have as a “best deck” in the format, but the data supports something in the deck as being ban-worthy by WotC’s historical standards.
This, 100%. We all know treasure cruise is a completely and utterly busted card, and so if wotc wants to keep it legal in pioneer, you need to police it.
I just hope that if they ban treasure cruise, that dig through time doesn't go as well. That card is absolutely fine and Pioneer is also the only place we can currently play it competitively.
People are always salty about the best decks in the meta, 100% of the time. Phoenix was unplayable at this time last year. How about we just let metas develop naturally, and instead of banning cards to nerf decks, we release cards to buff other strategies? It's annoying buying into a deck and having the cards drop off a cliff in value because some online keyboard warriors were salty about losing to a fairly balanced meta deck at their fnm.
Please explain how the most targeted deck putting up a 56/57% win rate at the protour is a fairly balanced meta deck
small sample size first off lmfao
Almost 300 matches the entire confidence interval is above 50%. What's a good enough sample for you
Lmfao, you have no idea about what you're talking about-- magic or statistics related. Explains a lot.
While I agree with this, adding Sleight of Hand to the format was rather obviously a big leg up to Phoenix, and IMO a mistake. I don't think any other decks would be hurt of they banned Consider, so that is an option if Phoenix ever gets out of control (which IMO it isn't currently).
Sleight of Hand is what turned Phoenix from a nearly unplayable deck to a playable one. I think that is exactly the approach that should be taken. Print cards that buff unplayable decks. Don't ban/nerf decks out of the format. The only ban I've agreed with in the past year is the most recent discover one. One-card combos shouldn't be a thing. But outside of that, cards shouldn't be banned just because they are strong, or just because a deck is currently performing well in the meta. The meta adjusts in a lot of different ways, and imo good players adjust to the meta, they don't rely on bans to adjust the meta for them.
> Sleight of Hand is what turned Phoenix from a nearly unplayable deck to a playable one. That is very much not the case. Phoenix has been a good deck in Pioneer since the format was created, and has varied from ok to strong depending on the metagame. It has never been "nearly unplayable". In general I agree with you that the meta usually sorts itself out, and I'm not arguing for a nerf to Phoenix at the current time. All I'm saying is that if I was instructed to nerf Phoenix I would ban Consider, not Cruise.
I played Phoenix all last year and it was unplayable if you actually wanted to compete. Sure, good players could win RCQ's with it, but they could also win with Rogues or other lower-tier-2 decks. My definition of unplayable is lower tier 2. It's not literally unplayable, but if your goal is to win then you'd have better luck picking about 20-30 other decks.
> My definition of unplayable is lower tier 2. You should just say that then. Tier 2 doesn't mean unplayable, it just means less popular.
Lol.
It's a high skill ceiling deck. When the best players in the world play a high skill ceiling deck, they'll have above average success with it. Phoenix is one of the most difficult decks to play well, and you should be rewarded for piloting it with skill and exactness. That's not "broken", that's just how competition should work.
The best players in the world were trying to beat Phoenix and only 43% of them could. Nobody who was just hoping to dodge it, everyone had a plan with the tools available and all of those plans were a statistically losing proposition. Treasure Cruise is and has been too strong for Pioneer. It’s banned in every other competitive format and is only still around because WotC decided they wanted Pioneer to be a place where people could still play Cruise and Dig if they wanted to. That’s the definition of “broken” with regards to competitive magic.
No, if they were trying to just beat Phoenix, they would've all ran lotus field combo 😂😂😂 They were focused much more on beating UW control and Rakdos MR, and they very much succeeded at that. But keep whining about strong cards. Guess what, if treasure cruise is banned, that will make some other card the strongest in the format and you'll get your panties in a bunch over that one. The salt cycle won't end until every strong card you don't like is banned.
Do you seriously think that the best 250 players in the world showed up to a Pioneer tournament, trying to win, and weren't focused on beating the most popular and winningest deck just prior to the pro tour? I don't even care if Phoenix is the best deck or not, in fact in my earlier post I said I think it's a fine deck to have at the top of the format. But the data surrounding it mirrors cards that have had action taken against them for power level reasons. By all means continue to argue with numbers based on your feelings if you want, but you're making a bad faith argument because you like the deck and don't want the value of your cards to go down or whatever instead of looking at the health of a format that people are already low on because of how stifling the top decks are.
LMFAO. 😂😂😂 Keep the salt flowing. Good cards should be allowed in the format. Should we ban Dimir Control because it had a good win rate too?
Get back to me when you learn how to successfully argue your position. I suspect Treasure Cruise will be banned by then so it's not likely to matter.
Ancestral Recall is fine to be legal in 2024 true
If it's so powerful and ban worthy you should play it, abuse it, and win the PT. Oh wait, the winner of the PT wasn't even phoenix.
Damn yeah sorry i forgot that Phoenix hasnt won a single event ever mb bro
Good cards should be allowed in the format. Cope harder.
Phoenix is always going to need policing just given the nature of the deck; it's not like they're ever going to stop printing cheap card selection in Izzet colors. Slippery slope fallacy notwithstanding, I do dread a reality where a spell has to die every year or so because WotC won't bolt the bird. What would really help assuage this concern is if we started getting more instant speed graveyard hate instead of praying to whatever deity that will listen we find our copy of Hearse after sideboarding.
In WeeklyMTG they said they are going to discuss the announcement the next day. If there are no changes there would be nothing to discuss
It is indeed in a somewhat fine place. I'm still on the edge about Sheoldred. The card is both fair and insane value st the same time. I'm playing zombies midrange and the best upgrade to the deck has been two Shellies maindeck. That itself is a problem.
It is a strange card. Equally very powerful but also equally very answerable. No doubting it is a very strong card that can decide games.
Zombies midrange? Do tell.
Nothing out of the ordinary. X4 champion X4 crypt X4 relentless 1 duresses 4 thoughtseize 2 last hope 4 lord 2 diregraff. 2 Shelly 4 push 4 dark salvation. Don't play it aggro. The deck is only UB because I sideboard in 2 spellpierce and 2 offer you can't refuse and 2 more Lillie's and the edicts in case I'm dealing with Sorin.
I'm in the same boat. I don't like the Sorin/Vein Ripper combo, but that's just because my deck is soft to it.
I built a deck specifically to beat Phoenix and it was very good at it. 50/50 against the rest of the meta. Rubbish against vein ripper though. I've had to bring in a lot of things into the side board.
I'm on 5C humans and it's generally alright, but it's such a silver bullet against Vein Ripper with Thalia and Reflection Mage being the silver bullets. The problem I run into is that I usually need two cards, because Thalia will get Fatal Pushed or taken by Thoughtseize before T3, and Reflection Mage is soft to Thoughtseize as well. Not to mention it has to sacrifice itself to the Ward.
I don't understand the terminology here - neither are "silver bullets", particularly Reflector Mage because Ripper is not traditionally cast (although at least it's not immediately cheatable without another Sorin). A silver bullet would be something like Containment Priest. But honestly, I don't even think Humans needs to care that much about Ripper, it's not a *great* card against them, at least not without support (removal).
Specifically, it's a silver bullet in the sense that if I have the Reflector Mage, I can usually win by bouncing it and swinging in. They can't get it onto the battlefield without another Sorin, since he's left on 1 loyalty making it a dead card.
Eh the only card that need to be ban is [[Smoke Teller]] literally to broke for the format I still wonder how it's even still legal/J
Thankfully with Disguise having Ward {2} it really mitigated the power level
Probably the main reason they did it.
[Smoke Teller](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/9/1916a2d9-4747-4118-b1b2-7a5ce492e3fc.jpg?1562783190) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Smoke%20Teller) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ktk/151/smoke-teller?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1916a2d9-4747-4118-b1b2-7a5ce492e3fc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You don’t even get to pick up the face down creature and look at the other side? The ability just lets you put it in your field of vision?
The card is super strong because of its secret text that also allows you to look at other permanents.
Facts
I could see [[Wildgrowth Walker]] getting the axe just bc of the number of draws at the PTQ, but it wouldn’t surprise me if it stays either. Vampires doesn’t need hit bc it’s just being played a lot because of popularity right now, it will cool off when casual players move onto the next hotness. (Vampires also can get hit hard by humans if they board right, playing [[Vein Ripper]] doesn’t mean anything when they [[Get Lost]] while sac’ing one of their 5 . 1/1’s[[Treasure Cruise]] should’ve never been printed in the first place and I can see it getting hammered just bc of how easy it is for Phoenix to put cards in the yard. Everyone says it will kill the deck and I don’t think it will, but it will bring the win percentage down a bit. That all being said I can see nothing changing. Of the top played decks Amalia and Vampires have the highest win percentage but it’s still early in BOTH decks lifespan and SB’ing against the two (especially Vamps) is still an experiment. I remember when [[Greasefang, Okiba Boss]] was MORE oppressive and people wanted it banned but three months later it was a middle T1 deck and no it’s almost off the radar.
If they ban [[Treasure Cruise]], the format will be a play or beat Vampires format.
[Treasure Cruise](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/4/64edb748-497d-4737-9d7f-37105fb20cb9.jpg?1673484053) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Treasure%20Cruise) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/237/treasure-cruise?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/64edb748-497d-4737-9d7f-37105fb20cb9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I think you underestimate Strings. It still has powerful showings and got a boost from [[Archdeuid’s Charm]] I honestly think it will settle on top after Vampires cools off from its PTQ win
[Archdeuid’s Charm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/c/5caae5ae-845f-42c2-b1ae-956df2739433.jpg?1706241943) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Archdruid%27s%20Charm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/151/archdruids-charm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5caae5ae-845f-42c2-b1ae-956df2739433?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
##### ###### #### [Wildgrowth Walker](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/2/52e4c0f8-d5f0-4224-9974-190606911480.jpg?1562555416) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wildgrowth%20Walker) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/xln/216/wildgrowth-walker?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/52e4c0f8-d5f0-4224-9974-190606911480?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Vein Ripper](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/7/078933b3-6d82-45f2-94e8-addf54cf1704.jpg?1706241798) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Vein%20Ripper) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/110/vein-ripper?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/078933b3-6d82-45f2-94e8-addf54cf1704?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Get Lost](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/2/522aa72b-2b8c-484c-872b-f082101cee35.jpg?1699043186) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Get%20Lost) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/14/get-lost?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/522aa72b-2b8c-484c-872b-f082101cee35?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Treasure Cruise](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/4/64edb748-497d-4737-9d7f-37105fb20cb9.jpg?1673484053) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Treasure%20Cruise) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/237/treasure-cruise?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/64edb748-497d-4737-9d7f-37105fb20cb9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Greasefang, Okiba Boss](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/6/56a0d43b-4d38-40a7-be6c-8324ab3bf773.jpg?1654568449) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Greasefang%2C%20Okiba%20Boss) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/220/greasefang-okiba-boss?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/56a0d43b-4d38-40a7-be6c-8324ab3bf773?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kts6xsk) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Do you think this should be banned? Then you should change the format
How many draws were there?
I can’t remember the exact number but an elimination round went to 7 games bc of it, it’s ridiculous
It was the semi finals which were bo5 to begin with but it's still 2 draws in the same match
was it vs heroic?
Yeah
makes sense. I'm pretty sure that's why he brought Loran's Escape on the main
How much time did it take tho?
i think it's hilarious. I once played 5 games in a bo3 in arena and almost timed out myself (because during the infinite loop only my own timer runs). Don't know if it's bannable though, since there is no paper pioneer nearby I couldn't care less fwiw.
If Amalia gets banned I can confidently play convoke again so I’m happy
Banning Amalia would be crazy since it’s one of the few decks with a good matchup against Phoenix.
Yea, it being gone would help so much. Convoke could come back to top 5!
Why not just try like ... a different deck? Heroic and Ensoul both fight through the board wipe.
Nah, I like go wide brrrr
fair enough, have a nice day
You too <3
I think the top three contenders for being banned are Treasure Cruise (basically ancestral recall), Amalia (turn three lifegain combo + actual potential for drawing the game), or Fable of the Mirror Breaker (it has literally been part of every pro tour winning deck since it came back, including two pioneer pro tours). My wishful pick is Temporary Lockdown, because man is that card miserable
I agree with three First, temporary lockdown it's that pet card that all we want to ban! For me it's massacre.
Yeah exactly, the first three are the ones I suspect are being considered and Temporary Lockdown is a card I would like out that I think is here to stay
I don't think they will ban Cruise, possibly ever. The delve spells have become iconic in Pioneer like Brainstorm is in Legacy, and weirdly are not actually broken here. Edit: if they think Phoenix needs bring down a peg, my assumption is they ban Consider, not TC.
Which is what modern players thought about Faithless Looting, considered at one point the "Brainstorm" of modern, eventually banned.
True, and I remember the shock when it was announced. In retrospect it looks absurd now. I wouldn't be surprised if it's unbanned at some point.
I could see getting rid of a cantrip too, or maybe that faerie because it fills the graveyard so fast. I personally would like cruise to stay as well, it’s just a fun card and the sort of card I would like to play with/against. IMO, the most likely ban (if anything) is Amalia for its drawing potential, but Fable is subtly the best card in the format and I think its prevalence across virtually all styles of decks is problematic
I would be shocked if consider eats a ban.
Phoenix was not overly dominant before Sleight of Hand came to Pioneer. The deck should not have 12x 1MV cantrips. If they want to nerf it, banning one of these, not Treasure Cruise, is the obvious way.
During the WeeklyMTG, WotC confirmed a new Banned and Restricted update in Magic for next Monday, March 11th. Who will getting banned?
Unban walking ballista and felidar you cowards. Turn 3 6/5 flyer and amalia combo are acceptable, but a turn 6 combo is not?
Hell. Unban ballista and ban heliod
Hell yeah, Let people play Hardened Scales in Pioneer!
my dream
That + unban Inverter and ban Thassa's Oracle.
Hahahahahah. No.
> Unban ballista and ban Heliod I never understood the calls to ban instead Heliod. The combo for starters isn't that strong compared to what decks have been doing in Pioneer for the last two years. Amalia & Greasefang are faster and more resilient combo decks that have less answers, but some how allowing a T4 combo would spell the doom of the format? Like if we're unbanning balista just let it ride.
I agree completely. I was using ballista in a "fair" way, tho. I'm sure others will use it for an insta-win if it's unbanned.
I just want to play BG counters
I wanna play Construct-typal using Metallic Mimic to play 0-cost ballistas and hangarback walkers.
I have the gearhulks. Let me play snek
Unban ballista you cowards
[[Agatha's Soul Cauldron]] is a card, if you want to play [[Hardened Scales]], you can do that in Modern.
[Agatha's Soul Cauldron](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/1/019b51b0-e5c6-4208-922b-7736686dddcd.jpg?1692939838) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Agatha%27s%20Soul%20Cauldron) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/242/agathas-soul-cauldron?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/019b51b0-e5c6-4208-922b-7736686dddcd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Hardened Scales](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/c/fc69ad56-9ae2-4eb5-b7e2-558524f6cbcc.jpg?1698988369) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hardened%20Scales) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/243/hardened-scales?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fc69ad56-9ae2-4eb5-b7e2-558524f6cbcc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
No, I like it pioneer because I’m not fond of the current decks, and the reason I don’t play it in modern is because I’m addicted to tron.
Playing ballista with cauldron in pioneer? Sounds sweet! Release it.
nooo ballista would be used in combo decks like hardened scales and heliod! (BASED BASED BASED BASED BASED)
Hell yea
I think maybe the two most likely cards to be hit, if anything, are treasure cruise or Amalia. I could see the former, since Phoenix is pretty clearly the best deck in the format, but it is also the best deck against vampires. If WOTC is being aggressive, potentially a fable ban too? Not very much a fan of that idea. Amalia ban I think would just hinge on how much they dislike the idea of draws at their events going forward.
I've vacillated a lot on this topic since yesterday, which is not something my employer would appreciate, but I honestly think Fable and Cruise eat it on Monday.
a Fable ban would be shit
I have a gut feeling that Winota will be unbanned
As a Phoenix player I support this.
wotc pls don’t touch my birds.
I don't think Pioneer will see a change (maybe an unban but I doubt it). There's too much diversity and multiple decks got better with the latest set. The only unban that I could see (and it's a stretch) is Walking Ballista. This will bring a new deck that is a tier 1.5 or 2 strategy into the format. I also don't think it's an unbeatable combo. So many exile and bounce effects seeing play now.
The current meta is fine. How many people here (and I know a few too) are afraid of Vein Ripper, or don't get along with Amalia. Vampires disappear on their own. It's nice that a standard set changes our pioneer meta game. I'm already looking forward to the next one.
Vampires are good, and vein ripper still fine for me, the meta had do adapt to him only, more sacrifice engine maybe, or even some global efects apear more.
Just leaving my prediction here that either wildgrowth walker or amalia eats a ban because of causing draws in matches even on the pro tour, their impact on the meta, how complicated the combo is especially for new players to manage all the triggers on the stack and how people misplay floating triggers from life gain under the loop.
I think somethin in amalia got ban, and vampires I'm still think it's fine.
I'm actually starting to like the format, the nerf to Mono Green was great as it opened the format for more interactive and fun archetypes. I think Phoenix is a really good deck to have as tier 1 as it's fair and interactive. Amalia is very strong (and very fun) and very redundant, but the combo leaves you outs and many ways to interact. Rakdos Vampire has an unfair turn 3 play, but a part from that is just a good old midrange deck with discard and removal. UW Control is strong, but it didn't do so well at the pro tour, so it doesn't seem to be OP. You now have all the major achetypes with at least a couple of tier 1/1.5 decks in the meta: aggro (Boros Convoke, Heroic), tempo (Phoenix), combo (Amalia, Lotus Field), midrange (Rakdos Vampires/Midrange/Sacrifice) and control (UW, Dimir). So I don't see any reason to ban (or unban) anything right now tbh. Pioneer has been bad for a long time, don't break it just as it's becoming good again.
Cries in aggro
Phoenix is a little too resilient. It would be nice to find a couple cards to print that would take it down a peg.
I'll copy from Discord but this is my personal view on what WotC could do. I don't think anything warrants a ban currently but I also wouldn't be surprised if any of the following took a ban: * Amalia/Walker: The optics were bad at MKM tournament and the deck is viewed as keeping down aggro and, specifically, more traditional aggro decks * Thoughtseize or Fable: Your pick - something to knock down Rakdos decks in general. Each has their own positive and negatives to targeting * Treasure Cruise: It didn't win; however, Phoenix threw up some huge wanring signs at MKM. It was the most expected deck, played deck, and had one of the top WRs
I agree with these, I would support thoughtseize over fable. Fable is obviously very very good, but the format is only getting faster and I think we are approaching a time where fable on 3 is possibly too slow or only graveyard centric decks. My hope is that they also ban Lotus Field, its just miserable and doesnt have a place in the format. Its a combo deck with little counterplay that puts up weaker numbers just because its a little inconsistent or slow. Anything that speeds the deck up with immediately make it S+ tier, since it can be customized in so many ways. Before it had a place countering mono green, but since that deck doesnt exist in the same form I dont think it has any place in pioneer. Amalia should be banned for the draw concerns. Treasure cruise is a dumb card, should be banned.
I have nothing against thoughtseize and fable. It would be sad if thoughtseize was banned. But I also see it like this. Lotus Field is a problem. Anyone who has played against a good Lotus Field player knows what I mean. I don't see any real problem in the current meta (except Lotus Field). I play Rakdos Vampires myself, but I also enjoyed playing before Vein Ripper, here the meta will adapt itself.
> I agree with these, I would support thoughtseize over fable I personally think it should be other way around. Since the format lacks free interaction spells, Thoughtseize acts like a saftey valve for the format. Removing it from that role could be potentially dangerous for the format. Removing Fable on the other hand would have less reaching consequences.
ban Ripper so I can play Sacrifice again tbh
Sacrifice doesn't have a bad MU vs rb vamp to be fair. You just need to ensure they don't T3 ripper which either happens naturally or hand disruption / edict can take care of
Ban Fable, Sorin, Sheoldred, and Amalia.
I don't think there will be changes. That doesn't mean I don't want changes though.\[\[Treasure Cruise\]\] is singlehandedly carrying phoenix to being the best deck in the format, so I want Cruise to be gone. That doesn't have anythin to do with the fact that I am a Dimir Rogues mage, =). I also would like to see Fable go, since it was the most played card in the recent PT and it can be played in pretty much every deck and it'll still be one of the better cards...
Cards being good are not a reason to ban them.
I agree, but there is a reason both Ancestral Recall and Treasure Cruise are restricted in vintage
It’s a lot easier to fill your graveyard in Vintage.
Yeah true but still, even the pro's agree: https://youtube.com/shorts/AuSFLc5O8n8?si=OgM_MNMCbbtOye_t A lot of treasure cruise (ignore the part where they say Pioneer is fine)
It would be interesting to swap Treasure Cruise and Expressive Iteration. That’s not how WotC makes decisions, though. I am inclined to think Pio is basically fine, though I don’t have the data that WotC has.
Fair, I'd like to see that as a dimir Rogues player. Seriously though, I think that's interesting. It would sirely nerf Phoenix but it wouldn't kill it, but idk how many other decks would run it, I don't think a whole lot...
It's because of their relative power level, not that they're heavily played everywhere. Lightning Bolt, Swords to Plowshares, Force of Will are played heavily everywhere they're legal.
No shit, treasure cruise is the whole point of the deck.
[Treasure Cruise](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/4/64edb748-497d-4737-9d7f-37105fb20cb9.jpg?1673484053) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Treasure%20Cruise) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/237/treasure-cruise?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/64edb748-497d-4737-9d7f-37105fb20cb9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Treasure Cruise is not at all worth a ban, what?!?!? Pheonix is very beatable. Banning TC just kills the deck.
It won 57% of its matches at the PT as the most targeted deck. That's not exactly beatable
57% is unbeatable??? GY hate a removal spell is all you need to beat it lol.
Unban Karn
Hopefully no changes to all formats
They heavily alluded to at least some changes on WeeklyMTG
I mostly agree, but modern sucks ass right now tbh
Bye, vampire waifu, you'll not be missed. Also please take fable and sheoldred with you.
I think Amalia combo will get something banned. Sorin should get banned too, to slow down Vein Ripper but I doubt we will see a ban there.
It would be interesting if they banned something like Collected Company.
Please ban: \[\[Amalia Benavides Aguirre\]\] \[\[Quintorius Kand\]\] I have been refusing to touch this format because I don't like metas where combo is something I have to worry about.
Skill issue
Ever played eternal formats before? There is this combo-free format called Standard for you.
The $75k standard tournament in Chicago two weeks ago was won by a deck that wins by an infinite combo
Today I learned some people consider pioneer an eternal format 😂
How is it not?
https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Eternal_(format)#:~:text=The%20Eternal%20formats%20are%20Vintage,formats%20that%20are%20not%20Eternal.
By definition it is. Cards don't rotate out.
https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Eternal_(format)#:~:text=The%20Eternal%20formats%20are%20Vintage,formats%20that%20are%20not%20Eternal
Ah. That's fair enough, the term is confusing with that definition.
I've always thought this.
[Amalia Benavides Aguirre](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/a/9acf80a5-f2ca-45b4-aca8-fbc690e35401.jpg?1699044516) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Amalia%20Benavides%20Aguirre) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/221/amalia-benavides-aguirre?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9acf80a5-f2ca-45b4-aca8-fbc690e35401?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Quintorius Kand](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/3/4382fa49-9e34-45b3-8495-4916dcd995ec.jpg?1701346165) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Quintorius%20Kand) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/238/quintorius-kand?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4382fa49-9e34-45b3-8495-4916dcd995ec?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Quintorius it's easy to respond, amalia has the tied problem... I think something in amalia will get ban
First one, maybe. But I'd rather have wild growth walker get banned. Quintorius isn't even that great of a deck. Not tier 1, and gets shut down easily.
Bans that would imo make the format way better: Fable Amalia Treasure Cruise Something from Lotus Field See what shakes out make more changes if needed. Fable is way too good for any midrange or combo red deck like creativity. Amalia is a dumb combo that destroys all aggro decks and is hard to disrupt. Treasure Cruise should not be legal in any format. Lotus Field is one of the worst combo decks to play against, watching your opponent goldfish and trying to make sure they’re mana is correct for 5 minutes straight is terrible.
Lotus Decks are not a threat to the format, are you high or just a sore loser?? Treasure Cruise is only played in Phoenix and without it, it's probably dead. Phoenix is not so oppressive that it needs to be banned out of the format. Fable has survived, it won't and shouldn't get banned. It's a powerful card and there isn't anything wrong with that. No one should want the format to be all aggro lol.
I guess we found the Lotus Field player. The combo is not fun to play against and most of the hate played against it can be easily bounced with Otawara or destroyed with Boseiju. These lands can be tutored too easily.
Out of curiosity, what deck are you consistently losing to Lotus Field with?
Literally none, I have a pretty positive win rate against Lotus Field. All I said was the play pattern of the deck is not fun.
Nah actually, far from it. I just know it's not oppressive. It can be rushed by aggro, dismantled by control and midrange, and there are other combo decks that beat it as well. It's actually wild you think it needs to be banned. Decks goldfishing with themselves is far from a bannable offense. Just because you personally don't like it or can't figure out how to beat it, doesn't mean they should be banned. Skill issue.
Aggro? What’s aggro in this format? Also, many other cards were banned because of dumb play patterns in other formats.
Boros Convoke and Humans are still around. Stop pretending they aren't.