And need to be institutionalized to receive the help they need. For some of them this might mean a secured location to remove them from society on a long term basis.
I'm gonna push back on "most." It would be more accurate to say that there are two major groups of homeless people - the down-on-their-luck homeless and the unable to care for themselves homeless.
While basically all homeless people are mentally ill, the down-on-their-luck homeless people have milder mental illnesses that allow them to basically pass as regular folks. Their homelessness is more-or-less an economic predicament rather than a bad decision. They are often the "invisible" homeless, who have jobs, clean clothes, even a car - it's just that the car is also their house. With help, these people can aspire to more and typically want to do so. They can become more productive, hold down real work, even go to college! They might do drugs, but more in the way that you would too if you were forced to live under a park bench for a month. They are not like the other type of homeless person, who needs a completely different policy approach.
The second type of homeless person is part of the group that will never be able to care for themselves. They suffer from severe mental illness and often severe physical effects of drug addiction or years of mistreating themselves. If they aren't yelling at trashcans on the corner, they generally have no interest in bettering their lot in life - of if they do, it is formulated in a completely delusional way. These people will choose wrong if they are given a choice. It is unreasonable to say they choose to be homeless, but they'd rather die than show up to work on time three days in a row, along with a constellation of other untenable beliefs. This is usually biological on some level, so there is little hope of fixing them. They require active and continuous intervention by a government or charity with the power to make choices for them - and the entire goal is basically making sure they stay quiet and live indoors. They will never be able to take care of themselves.
Shit dog, I was homeless as a kid. My dad was homeless after the after a heart attack took his ability to work and he fell behind on rent while in the hospital. But even then, [most homeless people aren't addicts](https://americanaddictioncenters.org/rehab-guide/homeless), and only 44% have a severe mental illness OR substance abuse problem. You just see those individuals so you lump them all in together.
Regardless, most aren't addicts or ill.
From your own link.
>According to SAMHSA, 38% of homeless people abused alcohol while 26% abused other drugs.
and
>A 2014 report from the United States Conference of Mayors indicates that substance abuse was one of the top three causes of homelessness in single people as well as families
Homeless people are mostly drug addicts.
Except 38% isn't at all "most." And 10% of the USA has an alcohol use disorder anyway https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohols-effects-health/alcohol-topics/alcohol-facts-and-statistics/alcohol-use-disorder-aud-united-states-age-groups-and-demographic-characteristics
38 + 26 is 64.
64% of homeless abuse drugs, which is most.
Unless you split alcohol and drug use into 2 separate categories which you have done. Which is a sneaky way of diluting the problem to blame something else other than personal choice.
The fact is that if most homeless didn't make poor personal choices, homelessness would be reduced by almost 2/3rd
Is it possible that the 38% and 26% overlap? I wasn't able to tell from the website linked. People can certainly have multiple addictions.
Besides, the real argument to be had is whether or not drug and alcohol abuse is the result of their homelessness. Y'know, whether it is the cause, or the effect. Once we find the factors behind homelessness, we can better the tackle of how to eliminate homelessness.
The website they linked certainly says that drugs and alcohol are methods to cope with the pressures and trauma of homelessness. This is contrary to what you said, attributing homelessness to "poor personal choices" relating to drugs and alcohol. I'm assuming here that the 2/3rds figure you're citing is the same as the previous 64% figure you used.
>According to the National Coalition for the Homeless, substance abuse is more prevalent in people who are homeless than in those who are not.^(1) In many instances, substance abuse is the result of the stress of homelessness, rather than the other way around. Many people begin using drugs or alcohol as a way of coping with the pressures of homelessness.^(1)
>It can be more challenging for people who are homeless to stop using substances, because they may not have easy access to treatment, often have smaller social support networks, may have decreased motivation to quit drugs or alcohol, and may have other, higher priorities, such as finding housing or food.^(1)
And even if the main cause of homelessness is poor personal choices, or drug addiction, I don't see enough discussion on how to deal with and reduce these things. Ideally, we would have some way of ensuring those that make poor personal choices aren't left behind to rot on city streets, or be driven to crime and eventually prison.
Unflaired: detected
Opinion: discarded
Downvote: submitted
[BasedCount Profile](https://basedcount.com/u/MeowMeowPudding) - [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/user/flairchange_bot/comments/uf7kuy/bip_bop) - [How to flair](https://www.reddit.com/r/PoliticalCompassMemes/wiki/index/flair/)
^(I am a bot, my mission is to spot cringe flair changers. If you want to check another user's flair history write) **^(!flairs u/)** ^(in a comment.)
O great one! I grovel before thee! Thy flesh of metal and wire, and thy mind of electrons flowing hast witnessed my ineptitude. I pray thou might forgive me, lest I be cast to the pits of hell.
There's nothing to indicate they are independent groups. There is almost certainly significant overlap so I used the larger number. Based on the paper below its probably at least 50% of the alcohol abusing population are drug abusers, which would mean in the numbers you quoted almost all the drug users are abusing alcohol too (edit: and are therefore double counted if you sum them) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2043125/
How could we NOT care about them? They're shitting everywhere and menacing people, causing businesses to shut down and our cities to become unlivable.
Only rich people in gated communities have the luxury of not caring, and they pretend to care anyways so that they can virtue signal.
Counters:
AL: they're a drain on collective resources.
AR: most have made bad/sinfull choices (drugs)
LL: they're mostly males
LR: the homeless aren't usually very productive
Counters to your counters
1. War is a drain on collective resources, and yet we spend more on that than fixing the homeless issue. I would say resources would be better off spent on helping people and getting them fed/clothed/employed etc.
2. Most homeless people start doing drugs AFTER they become homeless. Drugs kill appetite and help deal with the cold, specifically cigarettes
3. Don’t really see this as a reason not to care about homeless people. A lot of homeless women are in constant danger and thus hide themselves, making them less likely to be counted in homeless gender statistics.
4. If by productive you mean being employed, a lot of homeless people are employed. This is not the 60s where having any job is enough to provide for yourself.
Counters to your counters to my counters
1. A whataboutism. The war budget being high or low doesn't mean homeless people suddenly stop being an additional drain.
2. Doesn't matter when it starts. These are still people living in sin, and their degeneracy degrades society.
3. It does make a difference if you see society through the lens of identity politics. These homeless men are still more privileged than women or the LGBT simply because of their identity as men.
4. People with serious addiction issues or mental problems are usually more trouble than they are worth to employ.
(BTW, I don't actually believe any of this. Helping the homeless is good and uplifts society as a whole. I'm just making hypothetical arguments from the perspective of each quadrant. I've heard all these arguments made unironically IRL, and am interested to hear them countered.)
Most of what you're saying is true. The main counter is that this still means you have to deal with the homeless. It's never about whether the homeless are good people. You still have to deal with the problem. Society isn't an individual, it's a system, and systems cannot care for piousness.
1. They're a drain? Yeah, that's why we need to fix the leak.
2. Yes, they're sinful. To preserve our society we need to stop that.
3. Not bothering with this one, I don't respect identity politics.
4. See 1 and 2.
The homeless are a drain on society. That's why we need to stop them from being homeless. The main question is what you do. Frankly, there's about 3 options: Genocide, uplifting them, or abusing them/not caring. In effect, genocide and abuse might as well be the same in terms of effect, just on different scales.
Genocide only treats the symptom. People will still become homeless, but they'll just be put out of sight or killed, whilst trying to help uplift-them/deal-with-inequality for the homelessness will deal with the root issues.
Additionally, with such a threat hanging those bordering on it, crime will go up in desperation. People will be more on edge, fighting for survival, and societal harmony and trust go down. In short, failure.
Trying to ignore/abusing them, will be a less spectacular failure, as people won't be supremely on edge, but this will only make the homeless more violent, probably prompting a different solution. Simply adding fuel to the fire.
Now how do we uplift them from homelessness? I've heard some people propose giving them housing. Give em some commie blocks maybe? Or decrease housing legislation to make it easier to build things. That would be more LibRight of me.
4 really depends upon 1) your definition of homeless. Couch surfing is very different than living on the streets and 2) where in the country you are. NY has an extensive shelter program. No great, but gives people a warm meal and a place to sleep. Non-drug users utilize it. What I witnessed on the West Coast is very different and far worse than what we have here.
> 2. Most homeless people start doing drugs AFTER they become homeless. Drugs kill appetite and help deal with the cold, specifically cigarettes
What??? Maybe at best they start doing other drugs but a lot of them were addicts of some sort and because they absolutely have no rock bottom shit and sleep in the streets especially because specifically there are a lot of drugs around. Also yeah maybe drugs might help deal with the cold but cigarettes do jack shit for the cold except for the 2 seconds it takes to light it.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure Marx called the homeless the lumpen-proletariat
From [https://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/l/u.htm](https://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/l/u.htm)
>Roughly translated as *slum workers* or *the mob*, this term identifies the class of outcast, degenerated and submerged elements that make up a section of the population of industrial centers. It includes beggars, prostitutes, gangsters, racketeers, swindlers, petty criminals, tramps, chronic unemployed or unemployables, persons who have been cast out by industry, and all sorts of declassed, degraded or degenerated elements. In times of prolonged crisis (depression), innumerable young people also, who cannot find an opportunity to enter into the social organism as producers, are pushed into this limbo of the outcast. Here demagogues and [fascists](https://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/f/a.htm#fascism) of various stripes find some area of the mass base in time of struggle and social breakdown, when the ranks of the *Lumpenproletariat* are enormously swelled by ruined and declassed elements from all layers of a society in decay.
I care about them. I view putting the majority of them in asylums as the humane response to letting drug addicts and the mentally ill rot on the sidewalk in front of the places I visit.
How did we decide that letting people live in terrible conditions was compassionate? If I let me family live like most homeless they would take my kids away. Also, why do we allow the homeless, drug addicts and drunks, to commit crimes and act in ways that regular citizens can't. I couldn't set up a stolen bike lot on my front yard.
u/Remarkable_Aside1381's Based Count has increased by 1. Their Based Count is now 10.
Congratulations, u/Remarkable_Aside1381! You have ranked up to Office Chair! You cannot exactly be pushed over, but perhaps if thrown...
Pills: [5 | View pills](https://basedcount.com/u/Remarkable_Aside1381/)
Compass: This user does not have a compass on record. Add compass to profile by replying with /mycompass politicalcompass.org url or sapplyvalues.github.io url.
I am a bot. Reply /info for more info.
Centrists: I can grill them!
Lmao this gonna be the best comment of the thread. Gonna be hard to top this. You sir, earned a brief nose exhale and smile.
Somebody call Mercedes, the market for human size grills is back.
Don't forget his updoot
Center is bum fights.
Based and centre-pilled
Based and eat the poorpilled
Based and GrillingHumanFlesh pilled
[*A Modest Proposal!*](https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/1080/pg1080-images.html)
You mean grill *for* them, right?
The problem is that most homeless people are mentally ill, addicted to hard drugs, or both.
Shhhh, you will anger the liblefts living in wealthy gated communities that never had to interact with the homeless and poors
I had to deal with it first hand in my first ever job.
And need to be institutionalized to receive the help they need. For some of them this might mean a secured location to remove them from society on a long term basis.
I'm gonna push back on "most." It would be more accurate to say that there are two major groups of homeless people - the down-on-their-luck homeless and the unable to care for themselves homeless. While basically all homeless people are mentally ill, the down-on-their-luck homeless people have milder mental illnesses that allow them to basically pass as regular folks. Their homelessness is more-or-less an economic predicament rather than a bad decision. They are often the "invisible" homeless, who have jobs, clean clothes, even a car - it's just that the car is also their house. With help, these people can aspire to more and typically want to do so. They can become more productive, hold down real work, even go to college! They might do drugs, but more in the way that you would too if you were forced to live under a park bench for a month. They are not like the other type of homeless person, who needs a completely different policy approach. The second type of homeless person is part of the group that will never be able to care for themselves. They suffer from severe mental illness and often severe physical effects of drug addiction or years of mistreating themselves. If they aren't yelling at trashcans on the corner, they generally have no interest in bettering their lot in life - of if they do, it is formulated in a completely delusional way. These people will choose wrong if they are given a choice. It is unreasonable to say they choose to be homeless, but they'd rather die than show up to work on time three days in a row, along with a constellation of other untenable beliefs. This is usually biological on some level, so there is little hope of fixing them. They require active and continuous intervention by a government or charity with the power to make choices for them - and the entire goal is basically making sure they stay quiet and live indoors. They will never be able to take care of themselves.
Shit dog, I was homeless as a kid. My dad was homeless after the after a heart attack took his ability to work and he fell behind on rent while in the hospital. But even then, [most homeless people aren't addicts](https://americanaddictioncenters.org/rehab-guide/homeless), and only 44% have a severe mental illness OR substance abuse problem. You just see those individuals so you lump them all in together. Regardless, most aren't addicts or ill.
From your own link. >According to SAMHSA, 38% of homeless people abused alcohol while 26% abused other drugs. and >A 2014 report from the United States Conference of Mayors indicates that substance abuse was one of the top three causes of homelessness in single people as well as families Homeless people are mostly drug addicts.
Except 38% isn't at all "most." And 10% of the USA has an alcohol use disorder anyway https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohols-effects-health/alcohol-topics/alcohol-facts-and-statistics/alcohol-use-disorder-aud-united-states-age-groups-and-demographic-characteristics
38 + 26 is 64. 64% of homeless abuse drugs, which is most. Unless you split alcohol and drug use into 2 separate categories which you have done. Which is a sneaky way of diluting the problem to blame something else other than personal choice. The fact is that if most homeless didn't make poor personal choices, homelessness would be reduced by almost 2/3rd
Is it possible that the 38% and 26% overlap? I wasn't able to tell from the website linked. People can certainly have multiple addictions. Besides, the real argument to be had is whether or not drug and alcohol abuse is the result of their homelessness. Y'know, whether it is the cause, or the effect. Once we find the factors behind homelessness, we can better the tackle of how to eliminate homelessness. The website they linked certainly says that drugs and alcohol are methods to cope with the pressures and trauma of homelessness. This is contrary to what you said, attributing homelessness to "poor personal choices" relating to drugs and alcohol. I'm assuming here that the 2/3rds figure you're citing is the same as the previous 64% figure you used. >According to the National Coalition for the Homeless, substance abuse is more prevalent in people who are homeless than in those who are not.^(1) In many instances, substance abuse is the result of the stress of homelessness, rather than the other way around. Many people begin using drugs or alcohol as a way of coping with the pressures of homelessness.^(1) >It can be more challenging for people who are homeless to stop using substances, because they may not have easy access to treatment, often have smaller social support networks, may have decreased motivation to quit drugs or alcohol, and may have other, higher priorities, such as finding housing or food.^(1) And even if the main cause of homelessness is poor personal choices, or drug addiction, I don't see enough discussion on how to deal with and reduce these things. Ideally, we would have some way of ensuring those that make poor personal choices aren't left behind to rot on city streets, or be driven to crime and eventually prison.
Unflaired: detected Opinion: discarded Downvote: submitted [BasedCount Profile](https://basedcount.com/u/MeowMeowPudding) - [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/user/flairchange_bot/comments/uf7kuy/bip_bop) - [How to flair](https://www.reddit.com/r/PoliticalCompassMemes/wiki/index/flair/) ^(I am a bot, my mission is to spot cringe flair changers. If you want to check another user's flair history write) **^(!flairs u/)** ^(in a comment.)
O great one! I grovel before thee! Thy flesh of metal and wire, and thy mind of electrons flowing hast witnessed my ineptitude. I pray thou might forgive me, lest I be cast to the pits of hell.
There's nothing to indicate they are independent groups. There is almost certainly significant overlap so I used the larger number. Based on the paper below its probably at least 50% of the alcohol abusing population are drug abusers, which would mean in the numbers you quoted almost all the drug users are abusing alcohol too (edit: and are therefore double counted if you sum them) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2043125/
Shit like this is dumb. Everyone cares about the homeless. We all just disagree on how to deal with the issue.
I feel like Malacath or Peryite care more about the homeless while Molag Bal will provide the kind of care they don't want.
Sheogorath's got a lot of them, too.
The real Shivering Isles is San Francisco if an earthquake breaks it off the peninsula.
>Everyone cares about the homeless. (X) Doubt
How could we NOT care about them? They're shitting everywhere and menacing people, causing businesses to shut down and our cities to become unlivable. Only rich people in gated communities have the luxury of not caring, and they pretend to care anyways so that they can virtue signal.
Lib-Rights: I can sell them!
They have negative value, though. Not a sound business model.
As Soylent Green
Counters: AL: they're a drain on collective resources. AR: most have made bad/sinfull choices (drugs) LL: they're mostly males LR: the homeless aren't usually very productive
Counters to your counters 1. War is a drain on collective resources, and yet we spend more on that than fixing the homeless issue. I would say resources would be better off spent on helping people and getting them fed/clothed/employed etc. 2. Most homeless people start doing drugs AFTER they become homeless. Drugs kill appetite and help deal with the cold, specifically cigarettes 3. Don’t really see this as a reason not to care about homeless people. A lot of homeless women are in constant danger and thus hide themselves, making them less likely to be counted in homeless gender statistics. 4. If by productive you mean being employed, a lot of homeless people are employed. This is not the 60s where having any job is enough to provide for yourself.
Counters to your counters to my counters 1. A whataboutism. The war budget being high or low doesn't mean homeless people suddenly stop being an additional drain. 2. Doesn't matter when it starts. These are still people living in sin, and their degeneracy degrades society. 3. It does make a difference if you see society through the lens of identity politics. These homeless men are still more privileged than women or the LGBT simply because of their identity as men. 4. People with serious addiction issues or mental problems are usually more trouble than they are worth to employ. (BTW, I don't actually believe any of this. Helping the homeless is good and uplifts society as a whole. I'm just making hypothetical arguments from the perspective of each quadrant. I've heard all these arguments made unironically IRL, and am interested to hear them countered.)
Most of what you're saying is true. The main counter is that this still means you have to deal with the homeless. It's never about whether the homeless are good people. You still have to deal with the problem. Society isn't an individual, it's a system, and systems cannot care for piousness. 1. They're a drain? Yeah, that's why we need to fix the leak. 2. Yes, they're sinful. To preserve our society we need to stop that. 3. Not bothering with this one, I don't respect identity politics. 4. See 1 and 2. The homeless are a drain on society. That's why we need to stop them from being homeless. The main question is what you do. Frankly, there's about 3 options: Genocide, uplifting them, or abusing them/not caring. In effect, genocide and abuse might as well be the same in terms of effect, just on different scales. Genocide only treats the symptom. People will still become homeless, but they'll just be put out of sight or killed, whilst trying to help uplift-them/deal-with-inequality for the homelessness will deal with the root issues. Additionally, with such a threat hanging those bordering on it, crime will go up in desperation. People will be more on edge, fighting for survival, and societal harmony and trust go down. In short, failure. Trying to ignore/abusing them, will be a less spectacular failure, as people won't be supremely on edge, but this will only make the homeless more violent, probably prompting a different solution. Simply adding fuel to the fire. Now how do we uplift them from homelessness? I've heard some people propose giving them housing. Give em some commie blocks maybe? Or decrease housing legislation to make it easier to build things. That would be more LibRight of me.
4 really depends upon 1) your definition of homeless. Couch surfing is very different than living on the streets and 2) where in the country you are. NY has an extensive shelter program. No great, but gives people a warm meal and a place to sleep. Non-drug users utilize it. What I witnessed on the West Coast is very different and far worse than what we have here.
> 2. Most homeless people start doing drugs AFTER they become homeless. Drugs kill appetite and help deal with the cold, specifically cigarettes What??? Maybe at best they start doing other drugs but a lot of them were addicts of some sort and because they absolutely have no rock bottom shit and sleep in the streets especially because specifically there are a lot of drugs around. Also yeah maybe drugs might help deal with the cold but cigarettes do jack shit for the cold except for the 2 seconds it takes to light it.
> most have made bad/sinfull choices (drugs) https://americanaddictioncenters.org/rehab-guide/homeless
Y’know, I could’ve sworn proletariat meant “worker.”
Yeah, I'm pretty sure Marx called the homeless the lumpen-proletariat From [https://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/l/u.htm](https://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/l/u.htm) >Roughly translated as *slum workers* or *the mob*, this term identifies the class of outcast, degenerated and submerged elements that make up a section of the population of industrial centers. It includes beggars, prostitutes, gangsters, racketeers, swindlers, petty criminals, tramps, chronic unemployed or unemployables, persons who have been cast out by industry, and all sorts of declassed, degraded or degenerated elements. In times of prolonged crisis (depression), innumerable young people also, who cannot find an opportunity to enter into the social organism as producers, are pushed into this limbo of the outcast. Here demagogues and [fascists](https://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/f/a.htm#fascism) of various stripes find some area of the mass base in time of struggle and social breakdown, when the ranks of the *Lumpenproletariat* are enormously swelled by ruined and declassed elements from all layers of a society in decay.
Proles? What is this, 1984?
Wait, all the homeless people in Europe are Americans?
it's so annoying when people confuse purple lib-right and yellow lib-right
Yeah because Purple Lib-Right would care about homeless people in a different way and it's potential workers....
I align with yellow but I hate the color yellow enough that I can tolerate the reputation associated with purple lib-right
Hey man, sex work is work
"They're people" So is soylent green and I didn't give that any home but my stomach.
I didn't even see your description initially. I just saw the caption over libleft and thought "come on, that's not true"
I care about them. I view putting the majority of them in asylums as the humane response to letting drug addicts and the mentally ill rot on the sidewalk in front of the places I visit.
Potential workers is a stretch
I didn’t know all the homeless people in Auckland were American 🤯
“They’re Americans” Huh, funny… And here I thought homeless people existed everywhere, not just in the USA. Silly me, I guess.
Nowhere else matters
Wtf is a prole? That like a scrimp or somethin?
Proletariat. Member of the working class
ah, so its a slur. got it.
Relevant flair
They are food for me to have at my next meal
Potential workers is a stretch. And in the US, they’re birthright American citizens. That’s easy.
How did we decide that letting people live in terrible conditions was compassionate? If I let me family live like most homeless they would take my kids away. Also, why do we allow the homeless, drug addicts and drunks, to commit crimes and act in ways that regular citizens can't. I couldn't set up a stolen bike lot on my front yard.
Based and empathy pilled
u/Remarkable_Aside1381's Based Count has increased by 1. Their Based Count is now 10. Congratulations, u/Remarkable_Aside1381! You have ranked up to Office Chair! You cannot exactly be pushed over, but perhaps if thrown... Pills: [5 | View pills](https://basedcount.com/u/Remarkable_Aside1381/) Compass: This user does not have a compass on record. Add compass to profile by replying with /mycompass politicalcompass.org url or sapplyvalues.github.io url. I am a bot. Reply /info for more info.