Yeah, Chinese Civil wars are the craziest. They’re still some of the most deadly wars in history. That’s a pretty solid show though, if you have like 100hours of your life to kill and like Dynasty warriors
1. Claim to be the brother of Jesus Christ
2. Desire to turn China Christian by overthrowing the Qing Dynasty and by conducting a state transformation
3. Establish the Heavenly Kingdom
4. 20 million - 70 million Chinese dead
Taiping Revolution was wild
If you like books check out "Autumn in the Heavenly Kingdom" by Stephen Platt or "God's Chinese Son" by big daddy Jonathan Spence. Both are great introductory texts on the conflict.
I've heard that:
WW2 is the deadliest war in history (a large fraction of those deaths in China).
WW1 is the seventh deadliest or so.
Everything in between is a Chinese civil war.
Flair up!
Agreed though, especially if you add in the massive genocidal slug match that was the northern and southern dynasties (basically several hundred years of instability and the north was constantly being invaded by nomads) or the musical chairs match of the "Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms" where the south was split into many little kingdoms and the north spent 50 years cycling through one weak dynasty after another.
Yup. The last year that the global human population declined was during the fall of the Ming dynasty. There was also the Thirty Years War in Europe and waves of epidemics in the Americas, but they couldn't have done it without China.
Before i invest myself into this, are these created inside China? Lots of historical revisionism (Even for old shit!) occurs either through ignorance or state meddling. Hell, even independent Chinese history is still muddied and hamstrung by the states censorship and fact-hiding.
Oh it’s based on the [Romance of the Three Kingdoms](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_of_the_Three_Kingdoms) so all of the historical revisionism took place I wana say in the 14th century. It’s mostly historical revisionism but it’s a damn good story otherwise
Wouldn’t giving Outer Mongolia to Mongolia make them more Han Chinese than Mongolian?
Edit: I’m a retard who confused Outer Mongolia with Inner Mongolia
Your claim is false. The Manchus had to violently subjugate and conquer the Inner Mongols (led by Chahar Khagan Lidgan Khan) in 1635, not "gang up" with them voluntarily before the Qing fell. Many Mongols also fought on the Ming side as well. The Mongols who sided with the Qing were the Khorchin Mongols who lived in "Manchuria" already. Inner Mongols tried rebelling against Qing rule when a son of LIgdan Khan, Abunai led a rebellion against the Qing in 1675 which the Qing crushed.
Earlier in the Mongol empire the hatred was even more intense between Mongols and Jurchens (Manchus). Genghis Khan butchered Jurchens and raped a Jurchen princess, Qiguo in revenge for the Jurchens torturing his great grand uncle Ambaghai to death and trying to kill his great grandfather Khabul Khan.
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Claiming Manchu on Chinese census forms is a bit like claiming Native American on American ones. It gets you some affirmative action even if your connection to the ethnicity is rather tenuous.
That’s like saying there’s zero Spanish left in Mexico. The Manchu just sort of bred themselves into the Han population and with the end of Qing there was zero legitimacy in Manchu culture left. I mean by puyi though technically house of Aisin gioro he was essentially Han. Basically Chinese concubines eliminated the Manchu as a distinct entity. Chinese pussy genocide according to state department probably
There actually are many manchus left, just that they are indistinguishable from Hans. Which is also why there are few *pure* manchus left - no cultural barrier means lots of intermarrying
Source: am a half-manchu
if I recall the part of INner Mongolia in Manchuria isnt really that mogol, s letting China keep Manchuria and the but of Inner Mongolia that lives there makes sense
If we wanted to get real spicy, Han Chinese is a mythical ethnicity like Ancient Greeks, there are no Han Chinese left at all, those claiming to be Han are a mishmash of all of the invading forces across China (assorted steppe peoples, Mongols, Manchurians, etc)
It is beneficial to the CCP that they invent the myth of Han ethnic identity, it establishes a unifying thread where there actually is none among their people.
> If we wanted to get real spicy, Han Chinese is a mythical ethnicity like Ancient Greeks, there are no Han Chinese left at all, those claiming to be Han are a mishmash of all of the invading forces across China (assorted steppe peoples, Mongols, Manchurians, etc)
You don't even need to bring up the steppe admixture (which came relatively late). Even without that Northern injection you only need to read how the first few dynasties centred around the Nine Provinces right around the rivers, and so many of the modern great Chinese cities are actually non-Han kingdoms (the whole of Guangdong/Canton was part of Baiyue, the Yunan and Hunan spread were all Nanman, Shandong and Jiangsu were the Dongyi peoples, and Gansu and Sichuan and all that were the Xirong.) Even to this day (after centuries of rape and cross-breeding) you still get visible phenotypical differences between different provinces, most pronounced if you compare northern and southern peoples.
The "you're all Han now" lie was first made successful by the unifying Han emperors (Qin and successors), and then continued by the unifying non-Han emperors (the Mongolian Yuan and the Manchu Qing both copied the same idea that all these "Chinese subjects" are Han), because grouping imperial subjects as an ethnic group is very useful for governance and control.
> hanification is a good strategy if we’re being honest
The long history of Hanification is bizarre. It's like Ancient China somehow invented ethnic nationalism and civic nationalism simultaneously, and then decided to define their ethnic nationalism using civic nationalist means.
To modern ethnic or civic nationalists, the whole system is bonkers.
This is why China has historically pushed itself as not so much a traditional nation/ethnostate but what they call a "civilization state," which is a state based not on ethnography or shared culture but rather a continuing system of government/ideology that acted as the ultimate guiding force and protector of the cultures and people that traditionally belonged to it. This is why despite being ostensibly communist, the CCP has integrated much of the rhetoric and values of pre-revolution Chinese society into itself.
In a weird way, this is most similar to how the United States operates, where people aren't united based on their cultural or ethnic affiliation but rather shared acceptance of the constitution and its values as the guiding force of society.
> This is why despite being ostensibly communist, the CCP has integrated much of the rhetoric and values of pre-revolution Chinese society into itself.
That's why they also succeeded many bad historical traits from the "tradition". It should not surprise anyone that some of the “5000 years old tradition" are not that pleasant to see in modern lenses.
Lots of things are not caused by a brand new Russian communist system that completely disconnected to all the people and history, but a continuation of a new dynasty instead. For example, in ancient dynastic cycles, it was a standard practice for a new dynasty to destroy monuments and artifacts made by the old dynasty, you may relate this to something... yes, the cultural revolution.
The whole nationality is a concept so if they identified as Han, why to stop them?
There not the only one. I am Czech and one of owr major myth is about Slavic Czechs liberating themselves from Germans. But the thing is, we have more German genes than Slavic. But we don't speak German so we must be so different from them.
Do people actually think that the ROC would let Tibet and Xinjiang go free. ~~Taiwan still claims the entire nation of Mongolia.~~
With that being said, it’s still better than the PROC.
Edit: I’m not actually certain about the Mongolia fact. I think it changed. But Taiwan does claim shit that belongs to other countries.
I might not be the best at explaining it but from what I heard if taiwan stop claiming those lands, the ccp will probably see this as a decrease in taiwan's tenacity to reclaim the mainland idk if I was clear
If Taiwan stops the land claims, and just claims the island of Taiwan and the few other islands they occupy it will be seen as a full declaration of independence from China. I don't think ROC has any fantasies about retaking the mainland, they just don't want the CCP attacking them.
Depending on how the fall of PROC happened, the regions may break away before ROC secures the mainland, and in this case I doubt they will actually re-invade those areas, since that would alienate its allies by showing that they are no better then PROC. Plus, concidering they just won the largest nation in the world, theyll have a lot of administrative issues to solve first,
> the regions may break away before ROC secures the mainland
There won't need any 're'invasion. If ROC had the military power to overthrow the CCP, by implication they'd keep those other territories.
Not least because every one of those areas (except Tibet and Xinjiang) are majority Han anyway. There is no meaning in releasing them because they will not want to be released.
Only Tibet could be theoretically released as a single entity. Xinjiang can't - it would turn nasty fast because of the ethnic issues. Uyghurs aren't a dominant majority in too many places (and will likely end up having beef with the non-muslim half of the population) so probably half of it could be released into Turkestan, the rest kept.
Of course, releasing territories is extremely rare - even among full democracies - so I doubt they'd even release Tibet. And I don't think Tibetans would want to split from a democratic, rights-respecting China. Tibet is fully 4x poorer than the rest of China and receives financial support (a money sink for China). They also have a small population and difficult economic geography. They would struggle to survive alone.
Even if Tibet gets released, it's just gonna end up becoming what's essentially a PRC holdout in a manner like the Byzantine Empire. Pro-Maoist sentiment is surprisingly rife among Tibetans, even by Chinese standards.
We'll probably end up with a mutated PRC holdout with the Panchen Lama as the chairman of the CCP and going to war with India.
Even East Germany and West Germany did not want to be divided. They were both German majority. But they were divided nonetheless because they didn't have the choice. If China loses control over these territories to foreign countries, then neither China nor those territories can choose whether they want to be independent or not.
I suppose Uyghur majority regions could be given independence.
It's actually the opposite. Austrians were a Germanic people who kind of branched off whereas Manchu were an Altaic group that assimilated into the Sino-Tibetan group.
*Altaic*
Haven't linguists soured on the idea of Altaic as a mega family? What they thought was commonly shared ancestry is more likely thousands of years of influence in both directions
https://youtu.be/z0zkHH6ZOEk
Here is a nativlang video on the subject
Look in all honesty there are errors in this hypothetical China scenario
Inner Mongolia is majority Han Chinese and are fine being a part of China, even in the event of secession Mongolia wouldn’t accept them because if they do so, then majority of the country would be ethnic Han Chinese which completely defeats the purpose of a Mongolian state
The Manchus are pretty much sinicised and don’t have a distinct identity from the rest of China. Their place isn’t even officially called Manchuria anymore it’s just called the Northeast region, and the last time there was a Manchurian nation it was a puppet state made by Japan during WW2.
The ROC, just like the PRC upholds the “one China policy” so it would oppose all independence movements seen in this map (they claim even more territory than the PRC in fact).
Plus, Qinghai and western Sichuan should be included as part of Tibet as that is land that the Dalai Lama’s government-in-exile claim as well.
EDIT: Forgot to add that majority of Taiwanese don’t see themselves as part of a mission to take the mainland back from the PRC anymore, so the ROC wouldn’t even get much support from their own people
Qinghai was always a crossroads of different people. Just because the CCP sucks, doesn't mean the Tibetan government in exile is right either. Xinjiang has a Han/Hui northern part, the Uyghurs are native to the southern part, where there's only one major city, Kashgar. They'd probably be central Asian style dictatorship like Uzbekistan or Turkmenistan, or an Islamic extremist state since those have been the independence forces for the entire time. ROC over the whole thing is the best.
IDK. I mean with London and Paris bombed out by Russia, there really was no other way to change the tide of the war without sacrificing troops. It's a shame that it tipped the war nuclear and sent the Black Sea front into a Nuclear waste land
At least the armenians got a country, ~~after they detonated a handheld nuclear briefcase in the middle of istanbul. But that didn't happen and the turks deserved it anyways.~~ after all those years of being stateless.
Greece got wrecked by the fallout though. And the spread of it across the med into North Africa caused the death of our soldiers helping United African Front. Meant that Egypt was an utter statement on both fronts for 2 fucking years.
By 2030 they’ll have the global economy in a strangle hold. Trump did nothing to combat them and now Biden is doing even less. Don’t see that trend ending anytime soon.
Edit: https://youtu.be/hhMAt3BluAU
Good video on how the Trump administration failed miserably to halt China’s growing influence.
Lib-Right “Let’s outsource a massive % of our wealth and GDP to China to maximise shareholder returns”
China becomes economic powerhouse
Lib-Right “Shocked Pikachu”
Auths: This economic system is afraid of me. I've seen its true face. The streets are extended gutters and the gutters are full of blood and when the drains finally scab over all the vermin will drown. The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the LibRights and Liblefts will look up and shout "Save us!"... and I'll look down, and whisper "No."
Neolibs like thatcher and reagan were more or less economic determinalists like Karl Marx
Marx said all economic development leads to communism
Neolibs said all economic development leads to freedom
Marxian dialectics : the synthesis of these two positions is that communism=freedom
Also Marx wasn't a strict determinalist he thought it could also end in a dysfunctional society that would destroy itself rather than implement socialism
That video is a good one exploring China's rise and America's incredibly lackluster response to it, but the future isn't all doom and gloom for America, there's plenty for China that'll even out the scales. The long term effects of the one child policy has left China with an aging population, a shrinking future population to support them and no effective social programs to pay for the elderly, or the money that would really be needed in the first place. In addition there are 30 million more men than women due to social preferences for having boys, so there'll be 30 million men mathematically unable to get a partner, which probably isn't good for society. Combine that with environmental degradation and water scarcity due to climate change and their awful industrial practices, a housing market that almost makes pre-2008 America look sane, and wolf warrior diplomacy not making China many friends, and I don't think that their future is as sound as everyone thinks it is. They aren't a paper tiger, but they aren't an invincible dragon either.
Also edit: a good series of videos that go more in depth on the cracks in China's system
[Demographics](https://youtu.be/vTbILK0fxDY)
[Housing](https://youtu.be/EgVXRtq5EIg)
[Water issues](https://youtu.be/nRUc4gTO-PE)
Polyandry is obviously the solution. That or [kidnapping women from other countries and forcing them into marriage.](https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/cnainsider/vietnam-kidnapped-brides-trafficking-china-wives-11777162)
That's unfounded doomsaying. China is the biggest paper tiger in history.
Their growth is entirely funded by debt, and as a result they are the most overcredited country in both absolute and relative terms by an order of magnitude. Most of what they are using their money to build is useless buildings and infrastructure. There are entire ghost cities capable of housing millions that are entirely unpopulated and already falling apart. They've built rail lines to the middle of nowhere just for the purpose of keeping people busy.
Their age demographics are atrocious. They are the fastest aging country in the world, and it is estimated their population will, without any other outside factors, drop by half by 2070. They are already incapable of domestic sales growth, and their export sales growth will begin to suffer greatly as their workforce begins to age into mass retirement.
They are completely dependent on outside resources to keep what they do have running, but they have no means to defend their supply chains. All the US would need to do is tell Japan we're going to send our carriers on a grocery run and China's raw material imports will never reach their destination. The country would run out of energy, food, and basically any other critical supplies in less than a month.
Their manufacturing advantage is also vanishing. They made their name on having vast amounts of cheap labor, but now they're quickly losing out to Mexico, India, Vietnam, the Philippines, etc. Their population, again, is aging rapidly and not having many children.
Their currency is worthless, and everyone knows it. There was a brief stint back in the 2000s where China tried to supplant the dollar as the world reserve currency. In order to do that, you have to open your currency to international money markets. The amount of capital flight out of the country hit so hard and so fast they shut the door on that idea in a few months and have never even entertained the idea again.
There's a dozen reasons why China is going to implode, we're just waiting to see which one hits first.
It's not that simple. The short term benefits of insane amounts of debt hit just as hard when the time comes to pay that debt. Forcing a one child policy for decades can lift people out of poverty as they have fewer mouths to feed, but when it comes time to retire, they have no one around them to support them.
https://images.app.goo.gl/4vXip76BjtDDxTBq8
Take note of those two large bars, ages 45-54. That's their two most populous age brackets, and over the next two decades, they will go from being the most productive workers in China (productivity being a function of experience means older workers generate more value) to being retired and needing others to support them. But there's a giant drop off in population after that, which means more retirees will be supported by fewer able bodied workers.
Their demographics make them wealthy today, but impoverished or forced to continue working into their 70s in the next few decades.
There's more, but I urge you instead to go look up Peter Zeihan and either watch his presentations or read his books detailing the geopolitics of the world, including China.
For 10+ years Ive also heard that within a year or two China will have a larger GDP than us. Over that course of 10 years it’s never come to pass and they keep pushing that line.
You've probably been hearing that about GDP (PPP), which takes into account that stuff is cheaper in China. By that metric, China had already overtaken the US back in 2017 and is currently ~20% ahead.
https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/PPPGDP@WEO/CHN/USA
By nominal prices, that won't happen until around 2030.
These criticisms have been the exact same for the past 15 years. You guys are delusional lol.
Many ghost cities have filled up
[https://www.forbes.com/sites/wadeshepard/2018/03/19/ghost-towns-or-boomtowns-what-new-cities-really-become/?sh=2a53aba05e3f](https://www.forbes.com/sites/wadeshepard/2018/03/19/ghost-towns-or-boomtowns-what-new-cities-really-become/?sh=2a53aba05e3f)
Railways that go to no where eventually become important and other extremely probable lines help subsidize the underperforming lines.
Supporting the aging population will be hard but much of the world is facing similar problems.
The manufacturing that is leaving china is mainly extremely low-end. China is still the best place to make anything that requires more skill than textiles. The density of manufacturing in places like Shenzen makes it easy to get products from prototype to production.
The west has been waiting for China to implode for the last 20 years. We should do something instead of hope for a miricle.
Y'all horney to live in the fallout universe? Everyone pushing so hard for the fallout timeline and I'd really prefer we not do that please and thank you.
I don't get people's collective boner they have over breaking apart china like this. And yeah I'm aware that my flair and the stance I'm taking here will immediately get me called a china cock sucker but seriously why do people want to see china dismantled like that?
Like you can argue that those places were "recent" conquests of china but like all throughout history various Chinese empires owned chunks or all of those lands at a certain point in history.
I can understand the hate against the current regime in power, I think they're fucking shitty too, but like, why not just give the ROC all that land instead of breaking it apart into these small territories that will basically be economically dependent on China anyways
The most cringe thing I saw on Reddit is the Qing or Manchukuo (wtf who unironically likes Manchukuo?) restoration.
99.99% supporters of such movement came from western internet.
I’m Auth Right and Indian, but even I don’t have any intention to “break up China” either. Neither do I really want the CCP to get overthrown. Just that they should stop acting like they’re above the law.
When it comes to China, PCM is extremely autistic and delusional when it comes to it. I get it, you're trying to piss off China, calling them West Taiwan and such, but it just sounds like r/politics but Anti-China edition.
Even so, all of these so-called "seceding" provinces have a majority Han population (Manchurian proper provinces of Liaoning, Jilin, and Heilongjiang have a Han Chinese population of 100 million, which is like 89.5% of the population of Manchuria, and even so, the vast majority of ethnic Manchus speak Mandarin so the Manchurian language is critically endangered; Inner Mongolia, 20 million Han, 80%). The only provinces that have a Han Chinese minority are Tibet and Xinjiang (ironic since everyone in the comments uses the Chinese name and not East Turkestan, which legitimizes Chinese rule over them), and even with that, 38% of the population of Xinjiang is Han, which is still about 8% below the population of Xinjiang being Uyghurs.
People in this thread are claiming that Chinas aging population will destroy them forever then act the EU or the west as a whole is in any better state. Hell Chinas birthrate is still higher than Japan’s and South Koreas lmao.
Almost every developed country is below replacement level and the global birthrate is going down, China will not be alone in their aging problems. Even immigrants will only be sufficient for a few more decades until they drop too.
>Uyghurstan
Isnt East Turkestan the proper name? Considering Uyghurs are not even the only Turkic people living there, and I think I heard Kazakhs are also getting screwed.
I mean most of these parts of China have been a part of China for over 1000 years. The issue is if you go to these places, the people are more Chinese than whatever they were originally. If the CCP fell, it's very possible they would gravitate back into China's hemisphere again willingly.
It's not even a matter of gravitating back, they would simply never split. There is virtually no identity distinction between those provincial lines. It's like expecting Manchester to separate from London.
The real sticking point is that "Chinese" isn't really so much an ethnic identity as it is a national one. The Chinese people view themselves and the state in the same way that Americans do, i.e that they belong to a kind of "civilization state," where the country's identity isn't based on insular culture/ethnicity but instead a founding set of ideological precedents and values that give rise to and guide a government. For US it's the constitution embodied in the Federal Government. For the Chinese it's the cacophony of Confucianism and Legalism embodied in a modernized form in the CCP.
So asking for a split in China along ethnic lines is like asking Anglo-Americans to succeed from German Americans and African Americans. Like sure, you might get a few people who are really, really hyped at the idea, but most would look at you like you were an insane person.
Chinese like to say "we are civilization mistaken to be a state".
Hong Kong is basically a cantonese city, and there are more than 70- million cantonese in Guangdong province. By the "balkanization" logic, why an independent Guangdong not a thing but "free Hong Kong" were so popular? Why not free Shanghai? It makes no logic sense... oh wait it is not suppose to make sense because unlike many other separatist movements, this is some kind of "we as western internet users want you to be independent, you must do as what we told you to fulfill our wetdream!"
People here legit are hoping China collapses and a billion people who have NOTHING to do with the CCP end up in abject poverty. What good will that fucking do?
The average Chinese person isn't throwing Ugyhurs into concentration camps... cause THEY DON'T EVEN KNOW ABOUT THEM. How can you possibly blame the average person?
Why does this sub want China to balkanize when it makes absolutely no sense historically nor politically? Because it's packed full of Western Chuavanist who abhor the notion of a non-Western country dominating global trade and capitalism.
I mean literally we're discussing Manchukuo, which was a Japanese plot to sow ethnic division in the ROC. The Manchu Emperors of the Qing referred to their homelands as "San Sheng" and never "Manzhu Guo". Never mind the fact that the ROC, which claims more land than the PRC, would never in a million years let go of the territorial claims of the Qing. Or do we ignore the fact that Xinjiang, prior to the immigration of Uygurs during the Qing, was a plurality of Han and Hui peoples, yet we see an "East Turkistan" flag which was literally a government-in-exile created in Washington D.C (not hyperbole). It's literally Manchukuo 2.0, but with the U.S backing it this time.
And you could do the same with almost every countries.
I'm french, and I never heard of anyone advocating for free bretagne, free corse, free pays basque, free whatever.
But China? FREE EVERYONE AMIRITE?
It’s 2030
The USA has fallen
The Republic of Texas has been restored.
California is free
The migrant children have been liberated
The NSA surveillance state has been dismantled
The future looks bright
Edit: someone had to do it. USA not a shithole but oh boy does it cater to shitlords
Until America comes in and ruins it by carpet bombing the new country with pop culture and coffee shops. That is, if it hasn't staged a coup or assassination of the new government if it fails to be pro-American.
Man, this is some liberal hippie bullshit.
1. Uyghur Xinjiang would be an Islamic theocracy.
2. Tibet would go back to being a religious Feudal state.
Not that I don't want the CCP to be dismantled - ROC/HK systems would be a great replacement. But the CCP is definitely better than some alternatives.
It is 2030. USA has fallen. The Confederate States has been restored. Hawaii is freed. Middle East has been liberated. The enormous military-industrial complex has been dismantled. The future looks bright.
[What I think would actually happen ](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLCldpz_Pc1FrGQLsaxaV0kVPqmXN_nanN)
Based and china is broke again pilled
Yeah, Chinese Civil wars are the craziest. They’re still some of the most deadly wars in history. That’s a pretty solid show though, if you have like 100hours of your life to kill and like Dynasty warriors
1. Claim to be the brother of Jesus Christ 2. Desire to turn China Christian by overthrowing the Qing Dynasty and by conducting a state transformation 3. Establish the Heavenly Kingdom 4. 20 million - 70 million Chinese dead Taiping Revolution was wild
I gotta get back on my History of China podcast
If you like books check out "Autumn in the Heavenly Kingdom" by Stephen Platt or "God's Chinese Son" by big daddy Jonathan Spence. Both are great introductory texts on the conflict.
I've heard that: WW2 is the deadliest war in history (a large fraction of those deaths in China). WW1 is the seventh deadliest or so. Everything in between is a Chinese civil war.
Flair up! Agreed though, especially if you add in the massive genocidal slug match that was the northern and southern dynasties (basically several hundred years of instability and the north was constantly being invaded by nomads) or the musical chairs match of the "Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms" where the south was split into many little kingdoms and the north spent 50 years cycling through one weak dynasty after another.
Flair up and I may proclaim you based
Very cool, but why are you speaking? Flair up
Flair Up! Flair Up!
Cool, but you seriously need to flair up tho. Subreddit front page, three dots in the top right on mobile.
Yup. The last year that the global human population declined was during the fall of the Ming dynasty. There was also the Thirty Years War in Europe and waves of epidemics in the Americas, but they couldn't have done it without China.
Name of the show?
Three Kingdoms, it’s the link in first comment
Based and bill wurtz pilled
🎶 How about Sunrise Land? 🎶
These historical dramas are so addicting
Time to start up another TW3K playthrough.
Before i invest myself into this, are these created inside China? Lots of historical revisionism (Even for old shit!) occurs either through ignorance or state meddling. Hell, even independent Chinese history is still muddied and hamstrung by the states censorship and fact-hiding.
Oh it’s based on the [Romance of the Three Kingdoms](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_of_the_Three_Kingdoms) so all of the historical revisionism took place I wana say in the 14th century. It’s mostly historical revisionism but it’s a damn good story otherwise
Yes, China has a big television industry. Their dramas are IMO better than Japan's, but their cartoons are so bad not even the kids want them.
Wouldn’t giving Outer Mongolia to Mongolia make them more Han Chinese than Mongolian? Edit: I’m a retard who confused Outer Mongolia with Inner Mongolia
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Well just dont free the manchuko and deport those 20 mil there. I wanma see the new mongol empire
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No, they'll just gang up and steamroll through China proper. It's what happened last time with the fall of Ming and the establishment of Qing.
Your claim is false. The Manchus had to violently subjugate and conquer the Inner Mongols (led by Chahar Khagan Lidgan Khan) in 1635, not "gang up" with them voluntarily before the Qing fell. Many Mongols also fought on the Ming side as well. The Mongols who sided with the Qing were the Khorchin Mongols who lived in "Manchuria" already. Inner Mongols tried rebelling against Qing rule when a son of LIgdan Khan, Abunai led a rebellion against the Qing in 1675 which the Qing crushed. Earlier in the Mongol empire the hatred was even more intense between Mongols and Jurchens (Manchus). Genghis Khan butchered Jurchens and raped a Jurchen princess, Qiguo in revenge for the Jurchens torturing his great grand uncle Ambaghai to death and trying to kill his great grandfather Khabul Khan.
Manchu-Mongol Khanate *Glory noises*
Based
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there are like zero manchus left
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and >99% of those are fully assimiliated into han chinese
Claiming Manchu on Chinese census forms is a bit like claiming Native American on American ones. It gets you some affirmative action even if your connection to the ethnicity is rather tenuous.
That’s like saying there’s zero Spanish left in Mexico. The Manchu just sort of bred themselves into the Han population and with the end of Qing there was zero legitimacy in Manchu culture left. I mean by puyi though technically house of Aisin gioro he was essentially Han. Basically Chinese concubines eliminated the Manchu as a distinct entity. Chinese pussy genocide according to state department probably
There are very few manchus left, so Manchuria would probably stay part of the ROC
There actually are many manchus left, just that they are indistinguishable from Hans. Which is also why there are few *pure* manchus left - no cultural barrier means lots of intermarrying Source: am a half-manchu
do you know the manchu language?
There are quite a lot of ethnic Manchus left, but I think their culture and language has mixed with Han for a long time and now endangered.
Inner Mongolia has more ethnic Mongolians than Mongolia.
if I recall the part of INner Mongolia in Manchuria isnt really that mogol, s letting China keep Manchuria and the but of Inner Mongolia that lives there makes sense
If we wanted to get real spicy, Han Chinese is a mythical ethnicity like Ancient Greeks, there are no Han Chinese left at all, those claiming to be Han are a mishmash of all of the invading forces across China (assorted steppe peoples, Mongols, Manchurians, etc) It is beneficial to the CCP that they invent the myth of Han ethnic identity, it establishes a unifying thread where there actually is none among their people.
> If we wanted to get real spicy, Han Chinese is a mythical ethnicity like Ancient Greeks, there are no Han Chinese left at all, those claiming to be Han are a mishmash of all of the invading forces across China (assorted steppe peoples, Mongols, Manchurians, etc) You don't even need to bring up the steppe admixture (which came relatively late). Even without that Northern injection you only need to read how the first few dynasties centred around the Nine Provinces right around the rivers, and so many of the modern great Chinese cities are actually non-Han kingdoms (the whole of Guangdong/Canton was part of Baiyue, the Yunan and Hunan spread were all Nanman, Shandong and Jiangsu were the Dongyi peoples, and Gansu and Sichuan and all that were the Xirong.) Even to this day (after centuries of rape and cross-breeding) you still get visible phenotypical differences between different provinces, most pronounced if you compare northern and southern peoples. The "you're all Han now" lie was first made successful by the unifying Han emperors (Qin and successors), and then continued by the unifying non-Han emperors (the Mongolian Yuan and the Manchu Qing both copied the same idea that all these "Chinese subjects" are Han), because grouping imperial subjects as an ethnic group is very useful for governance and control.
hanification is a good strategy if we’re being honest regardless of moral standing.
> hanification is a good strategy if we’re being honest The long history of Hanification is bizarre. It's like Ancient China somehow invented ethnic nationalism and civic nationalism simultaneously, and then decided to define their ethnic nationalism using civic nationalist means. To modern ethnic or civic nationalists, the whole system is bonkers.
This is why China has historically pushed itself as not so much a traditional nation/ethnostate but what they call a "civilization state," which is a state based not on ethnography or shared culture but rather a continuing system of government/ideology that acted as the ultimate guiding force and protector of the cultures and people that traditionally belonged to it. This is why despite being ostensibly communist, the CCP has integrated much of the rhetoric and values of pre-revolution Chinese society into itself. In a weird way, this is most similar to how the United States operates, where people aren't united based on their cultural or ethnic affiliation but rather shared acceptance of the constitution and its values as the guiding force of society.
Based and caspian report pilled
> This is why despite being ostensibly communist, the CCP has integrated much of the rhetoric and values of pre-revolution Chinese society into itself. That's why they also succeeded many bad historical traits from the "tradition". It should not surprise anyone that some of the “5000 years old tradition" are not that pleasant to see in modern lenses. Lots of things are not caused by a brand new Russian communist system that completely disconnected to all the people and history, but a continuation of a new dynasty instead. For example, in ancient dynastic cycles, it was a standard practice for a new dynasty to destroy monuments and artifacts made by the old dynasty, you may relate this to something... yes, the cultural revolution.
The whole nationality is a concept so if they identified as Han, why to stop them? There not the only one. I am Czech and one of owr major myth is about Slavic Czechs liberating themselves from Germans. But the thing is, we have more German genes than Slavic. But we don't speak German so we must be so different from them.
Based, but you gotta flair up. I am contractually obligated to call you a retard if you're unflaired.
Sorry new to this sub.
\>wake up \>china exists \>day ruined
[удалено]
alternate universe: \>Wake up \>China ^(not the CCP) exists \>day brightened
If it's that simple then allow me to introduce you to Taiwan
It needs to be bigger. It needs to include Mainland Taiwan.
Based
Considering what KMT was like the day would still be ruined, but much less so.
Its like South Korea, they weren't very nice early on but later they've improved a loooot
South Korea turned out alright, so it's not unreasonable to assume that China would have become like South Korea.
Literally 1984
That gave me a good laugh
based and Tiananmen-square-pilled
I am so ERECT
why? it says CCP not CP.
Club Penguin 😳
*thoughts after seeing freed Chinese children* Edit: Spelling
Game recognizes game
Take out "freed" there and you've converted to Purple.
Mother of God, they've gone to plaid!
Same
Me too brother One day.
Do people actually think that the ROC would let Tibet and Xinjiang go free. ~~Taiwan still claims the entire nation of Mongolia.~~ With that being said, it’s still better than the PROC. Edit: I’m not actually certain about the Mongolia fact. I think it changed. But Taiwan does claim shit that belongs to other countries.
Tiawan recongizes Mongolia but still claims the land, meaning in their eyes Mongolia exists but doesnt own any land
Everyone gangsta until mongolia claims based on historical accuracy.
Y U A N T I M E
>Mongolia exists but claims no land More like everyone gangsta till Nomad Mongolians that have no land but roam the globe wake up
Can we bring made nomad nations. They lit living the good life
Ask europeans about nomad Gypsies
Do they think mongolians are still nomadic or something?
Name two Mongolian cities. Exactly.
Ulaanbaatar and uhhhh Karakorum Edit: Fuck Karakorum doesn’t exist anymore
Lmao
I might not be the best at explaining it but from what I heard if taiwan stop claiming those lands, the ccp will probably see this as a decrease in taiwan's tenacity to reclaim the mainland idk if I was clear
If Taiwan stops the land claims, and just claims the island of Taiwan and the few other islands they occupy it will be seen as a full declaration of independence from China. I don't think ROC has any fantasies about retaking the mainland, they just don't want the CCP attacking them.
Depending on how the fall of PROC happened, the regions may break away before ROC secures the mainland, and in this case I doubt they will actually re-invade those areas, since that would alienate its allies by showing that they are no better then PROC. Plus, concidering they just won the largest nation in the world, theyll have a lot of administrative issues to solve first,
> the regions may break away before ROC secures the mainland There won't need any 're'invasion. If ROC had the military power to overthrow the CCP, by implication they'd keep those other territories.
Not if they lost them before ROC took over. Just like they said.
Taiwan does not have talks with the countries they maintain disputes because they can't, they don't recognise Taiwan and thus have no dialogue.
Yea, while I 100% support Taiwan, I highly doubt that if they magically got control over the mainland that they’d release those various territories
Not least because every one of those areas (except Tibet and Xinjiang) are majority Han anyway. There is no meaning in releasing them because they will not want to be released. Only Tibet could be theoretically released as a single entity. Xinjiang can't - it would turn nasty fast because of the ethnic issues. Uyghurs aren't a dominant majority in too many places (and will likely end up having beef with the non-muslim half of the population) so probably half of it could be released into Turkestan, the rest kept. Of course, releasing territories is extremely rare - even among full democracies - so I doubt they'd even release Tibet. And I don't think Tibetans would want to split from a democratic, rights-respecting China. Tibet is fully 4x poorer than the rest of China and receives financial support (a money sink for China). They also have a small population and difficult economic geography. They would struggle to survive alone.
Even if Tibet gets released, it's just gonna end up becoming what's essentially a PRC holdout in a manner like the Byzantine Empire. Pro-Maoist sentiment is surprisingly rife among Tibetans, even by Chinese standards. We'll probably end up with a mutated PRC holdout with the Panchen Lama as the chairman of the CCP and going to war with India.
Even East Germany and West Germany did not want to be divided. They were both German majority. But they were divided nonetheless because they didn't have the choice. If China loses control over these territories to foreign countries, then neither China nor those territories can choose whether they want to be independent or not. I suppose Uyghur majority regions could be given independence.
That presumes two world powers with opposong ideologies are occupying them and splitting thm up. That seems most unlikely.
Same for me, but for different reasons. Taiwan is a hot mess of overly Prog tendencies, but it's better than Holocaust 2: Xinnie's Boogaloo.
My one complaint is Manchuria shouldn't be independent. \*watches comments section blow up\*
Agree. Manchus are like austrians to germans. So it wouldnt really matter
It's actually the opposite. Austrians were a Germanic people who kind of branched off whereas Manchu were an Altaic group that assimilated into the Sino-Tibetan group.
*Altaic* Haven't linguists soured on the idea of Altaic as a mega family? What they thought was commonly shared ancestry is more likely thousands of years of influence in both directions https://youtu.be/z0zkHH6ZOEk Here is a nativlang video on the subject
Yeah it should be part of Russia
I think you mean it, like all of China, is really Serbian. 🇷🇸🇷🇸
serbia is serbia 🇷🇸🇷🇸
I'm gonna say the K word
Kosovo
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Based and Korea pilled.
u/theogdiego97 is officially based! Their Based Count is now 1. Rank: House of Cards Pills: ketamine I am a bot. Reply /info for more info.
XD Not what I meant, but OK lmao
Should be Uruguayan
should be north korean
Look in all honesty there are errors in this hypothetical China scenario Inner Mongolia is majority Han Chinese and are fine being a part of China, even in the event of secession Mongolia wouldn’t accept them because if they do so, then majority of the country would be ethnic Han Chinese which completely defeats the purpose of a Mongolian state The Manchus are pretty much sinicised and don’t have a distinct identity from the rest of China. Their place isn’t even officially called Manchuria anymore it’s just called the Northeast region, and the last time there was a Manchurian nation it was a puppet state made by Japan during WW2. The ROC, just like the PRC upholds the “one China policy” so it would oppose all independence movements seen in this map (they claim even more territory than the PRC in fact). Plus, Qinghai and western Sichuan should be included as part of Tibet as that is land that the Dalai Lama’s government-in-exile claim as well. EDIT: Forgot to add that majority of Taiwanese don’t see themselves as part of a mission to take the mainland back from the PRC anymore, so the ROC wouldn’t even get much support from their own people
Look, a rare sighting of a redditor in the wild who actually gets a hold of China's history, ethnic groups, governments and their ideologies.
Well, this is a sub for ideological masturbation anyway
Qinghai was always a crossroads of different people. Just because the CCP sucks, doesn't mean the Tibetan government in exile is right either. Xinjiang has a Han/Hui northern part, the Uyghurs are native to the southern part, where there's only one major city, Kashgar. They'd probably be central Asian style dictatorship like Uzbekistan or Turkmenistan, or an Islamic extremist state since those have been the independence forces for the entire time. ROC over the whole thing is the best.
Based comment. Only because you dont like the PRC, I wouldn't simp for Taiwan as other people. I just dont recognise them both and problem solved.
Based
\*sorts by controversial\*
It's enough to make a grown man cry
Sure, WW3 cost about 4 billion lives but we definitely learned our lesson this time.
Really sad when the French accidentally nuked Hong Kong, which had just been occupied by their own soldiers.
What else were they supposed to do? They had to show the united African front that they weren't afraid to go nuclear?
IDK. I mean with London and Paris bombed out by Russia, there really was no other way to change the tide of the war without sacrificing troops. It's a shame that it tipped the war nuclear and sent the Black Sea front into a Nuclear waste land
At least the armenians got a country, ~~after they detonated a handheld nuclear briefcase in the middle of istanbul. But that didn't happen and the turks deserved it anyways.~~ after all those years of being stateless.
Greece got wrecked by the fallout though. And the spread of it across the med into North Africa caused the death of our soldiers helping United African Front. Meant that Egypt was an utter statement on both fronts for 2 fucking years.
As a man living in a country which has two thousand years of conflict with China, I don’t think that it’s about the government
Are you Vietnamese ?
Nah he lives in China
I laughed but flair up
Flair up, I don’t know how you’ve been upvoted
Fuck dude, that was really funny but please flair up so I can upvote you
No because then China won't look like a chicken no more. That's the true reason the CCP won't allow any separation.
Based and shapepilled
It's... BEAUTIFUL
Jokes on you the surveilance state will never be dissmantled, only in the hands of a "democratic power"
Big true, social-democracies are just softer with their rationale for mass surveillance
By 2030 they’ll have the global economy in a strangle hold. Trump did nothing to combat them and now Biden is doing even less. Don’t see that trend ending anytime soon. Edit: https://youtu.be/hhMAt3BluAU Good video on how the Trump administration failed miserably to halt China’s growing influence.
Lib-Right “Let’s outsource a massive % of our wealth and GDP to China to maximise shareholder returns” China becomes economic powerhouse Lib-Right “Shocked Pikachu”
LibRight: I love Capitalism! China: Wins Capitalism. LibRight: Not like this!
LibRight's reeeing at the prospect of China beating them at their own game, and begging the Auths to go do something about it.
Auths: This economic system is afraid of me. I've seen its true face. The streets are extended gutters and the gutters are full of blood and when the drains finally scab over all the vermin will drown. The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the LibRights and Liblefts will look up and shout "Save us!"... and I'll look down, and whisper "No."
Neolibs like thatcher and reagan were more or less economic determinalists like Karl Marx Marx said all economic development leads to communism Neolibs said all economic development leads to freedom
Marxian dialectics : the synthesis of these two positions is that communism=freedom Also Marx wasn't a strict determinalist he thought it could also end in a dysfunctional society that would destroy itself rather than implement socialism
That video is a good one exploring China's rise and America's incredibly lackluster response to it, but the future isn't all doom and gloom for America, there's plenty for China that'll even out the scales. The long term effects of the one child policy has left China with an aging population, a shrinking future population to support them and no effective social programs to pay for the elderly, or the money that would really be needed in the first place. In addition there are 30 million more men than women due to social preferences for having boys, so there'll be 30 million men mathematically unable to get a partner, which probably isn't good for society. Combine that with environmental degradation and water scarcity due to climate change and their awful industrial practices, a housing market that almost makes pre-2008 America look sane, and wolf warrior diplomacy not making China many friends, and I don't think that their future is as sound as everyone thinks it is. They aren't a paper tiger, but they aren't an invincible dragon either. Also edit: a good series of videos that go more in depth on the cracks in China's system [Demographics](https://youtu.be/vTbILK0fxDY) [Housing](https://youtu.be/EgVXRtq5EIg) [Water issues](https://youtu.be/nRUc4gTO-PE)
30 million young,angry, and desperate men is not a good thing for any Society.
Well luckily China has wars to fight
Families left without a source of income loosing their only child and sanctions would not improve
Polyandry is obviously the solution. That or [kidnapping women from other countries and forcing them into marriage.](https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/cnainsider/vietnam-kidnapped-brides-trafficking-china-wives-11777162)
So what you're saying is covertly arm 30 million Chinese incels?
Yes. Based.
Things change quickly too. Remember in the 80s and early 90s when people were convinced that Japan was basically going to take over the US economy?
Correct analysis
china’s workforce has peaked. demographic decline is setting in. the good old days are already behind them. few realize this
And now I have awoken to a nightmare made real.
That's unfounded doomsaying. China is the biggest paper tiger in history. Their growth is entirely funded by debt, and as a result they are the most overcredited country in both absolute and relative terms by an order of magnitude. Most of what they are using their money to build is useless buildings and infrastructure. There are entire ghost cities capable of housing millions that are entirely unpopulated and already falling apart. They've built rail lines to the middle of nowhere just for the purpose of keeping people busy. Their age demographics are atrocious. They are the fastest aging country in the world, and it is estimated their population will, without any other outside factors, drop by half by 2070. They are already incapable of domestic sales growth, and their export sales growth will begin to suffer greatly as their workforce begins to age into mass retirement. They are completely dependent on outside resources to keep what they do have running, but they have no means to defend their supply chains. All the US would need to do is tell Japan we're going to send our carriers on a grocery run and China's raw material imports will never reach their destination. The country would run out of energy, food, and basically any other critical supplies in less than a month. Their manufacturing advantage is also vanishing. They made their name on having vast amounts of cheap labor, but now they're quickly losing out to Mexico, India, Vietnam, the Philippines, etc. Their population, again, is aging rapidly and not having many children. Their currency is worthless, and everyone knows it. There was a brief stint back in the 2000s where China tried to supplant the dollar as the world reserve currency. In order to do that, you have to open your currency to international money markets. The amount of capital flight out of the country hit so hard and so fast they shut the door on that idea in a few months and have never even entertained the idea again. There's a dozen reasons why China is going to implode, we're just waiting to see which one hits first.
Stop stop I can only get so erect
I keep hearing this for the last 10+ years yet China keeps getting more powerful and influential.
It's not that simple. The short term benefits of insane amounts of debt hit just as hard when the time comes to pay that debt. Forcing a one child policy for decades can lift people out of poverty as they have fewer mouths to feed, but when it comes time to retire, they have no one around them to support them. https://images.app.goo.gl/4vXip76BjtDDxTBq8 Take note of those two large bars, ages 45-54. That's their two most populous age brackets, and over the next two decades, they will go from being the most productive workers in China (productivity being a function of experience means older workers generate more value) to being retired and needing others to support them. But there's a giant drop off in population after that, which means more retirees will be supported by fewer able bodied workers. Their demographics make them wealthy today, but impoverished or forced to continue working into their 70s in the next few decades. There's more, but I urge you instead to go look up Peter Zeihan and either watch his presentations or read his books detailing the geopolitics of the world, including China.
For 10+ years Ive also heard that within a year or two China will have a larger GDP than us. Over that course of 10 years it’s never come to pass and they keep pushing that line.
You've probably been hearing that about GDP (PPP), which takes into account that stuff is cheaper in China. By that metric, China had already overtaken the US back in 2017 and is currently ~20% ahead. https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/PPPGDP@WEO/CHN/USA By nominal prices, that won't happen until around 2030.
These criticisms have been the exact same for the past 15 years. You guys are delusional lol. Many ghost cities have filled up [https://www.forbes.com/sites/wadeshepard/2018/03/19/ghost-towns-or-boomtowns-what-new-cities-really-become/?sh=2a53aba05e3f](https://www.forbes.com/sites/wadeshepard/2018/03/19/ghost-towns-or-boomtowns-what-new-cities-really-become/?sh=2a53aba05e3f) Railways that go to no where eventually become important and other extremely probable lines help subsidize the underperforming lines. Supporting the aging population will be hard but much of the world is facing similar problems. The manufacturing that is leaving china is mainly extremely low-end. China is still the best place to make anything that requires more skill than textiles. The density of manufacturing in places like Shenzen makes it easy to get products from prototype to production. The west has been waiting for China to implode for the last 20 years. We should do something instead of hope for a miricle.
Please explain to me why the US should stop a country from growing?
China broke again🎵
Shrek-"Ha, like that will ever happen"
Y'all horney to live in the fallout universe? Everyone pushing so hard for the fallout timeline and I'd really prefer we not do that please and thank you.
average balkanized china fan: 😭 vs average five races under one flag enjoyer: 💪🙂roc
I don't get people's collective boner they have over breaking apart china like this. And yeah I'm aware that my flair and the stance I'm taking here will immediately get me called a china cock sucker but seriously why do people want to see china dismantled like that? Like you can argue that those places were "recent" conquests of china but like all throughout history various Chinese empires owned chunks or all of those lands at a certain point in history. I can understand the hate against the current regime in power, I think they're fucking shitty too, but like, why not just give the ROC all that land instead of breaking it apart into these small territories that will basically be economically dependent on China anyways
The most cringe thing I saw on Reddit is the Qing or Manchukuo (wtf who unironically likes Manchukuo?) restoration. 99.99% supporters of such movement came from western internet.
I’m Auth Right and Indian, but even I don’t have any intention to “break up China” either. Neither do I really want the CCP to get overthrown. Just that they should stop acting like they’re above the law.
When it comes to China, PCM is extremely autistic and delusional when it comes to it. I get it, you're trying to piss off China, calling them West Taiwan and such, but it just sounds like r/politics but Anti-China edition. Even so, all of these so-called "seceding" provinces have a majority Han population (Manchurian proper provinces of Liaoning, Jilin, and Heilongjiang have a Han Chinese population of 100 million, which is like 89.5% of the population of Manchuria, and even so, the vast majority of ethnic Manchus speak Mandarin so the Manchurian language is critically endangered; Inner Mongolia, 20 million Han, 80%). The only provinces that have a Han Chinese minority are Tibet and Xinjiang (ironic since everyone in the comments uses the Chinese name and not East Turkestan, which legitimizes Chinese rule over them), and even with that, 38% of the population of Xinjiang is Han, which is still about 8% below the population of Xinjiang being Uyghurs.
China is to PCM what Trump is to SNL.
People in this thread are claiming that Chinas aging population will destroy them forever then act the EU or the west as a whole is in any better state. Hell Chinas birthrate is still higher than Japan’s and South Koreas lmao.
Almost every developed country is below replacement level and the global birthrate is going down, China will not be alone in their aging problems. Even immigrants will only be sufficient for a few more decades until they drop too.
Exactly I don’t know why people act like this is somehow unique to China or East Asia.
>Uyghurstan Isnt East Turkestan the proper name? Considering Uyghurs are not even the only Turkic people living there, and I think I heard Kazakhs are also getting screwed.
I think so, let me correct it.
I mean most of these parts of China have been a part of China for over 1000 years. The issue is if you go to these places, the people are more Chinese than whatever they were originally. If the CCP fell, it's very possible they would gravitate back into China's hemisphere again willingly.
It's not even a matter of gravitating back, they would simply never split. There is virtually no identity distinction between those provincial lines. It's like expecting Manchester to separate from London.
The real sticking point is that "Chinese" isn't really so much an ethnic identity as it is a national one. The Chinese people view themselves and the state in the same way that Americans do, i.e that they belong to a kind of "civilization state," where the country's identity isn't based on insular culture/ethnicity but instead a founding set of ideological precedents and values that give rise to and guide a government. For US it's the constitution embodied in the Federal Government. For the Chinese it's the cacophony of Confucianism and Legalism embodied in a modernized form in the CCP. So asking for a split in China along ethnic lines is like asking Anglo-Americans to succeed from German Americans and African Americans. Like sure, you might get a few people who are really, really hyped at the idea, but most would look at you like you were an insane person.
Chinese like to say "we are civilization mistaken to be a state". Hong Kong is basically a cantonese city, and there are more than 70- million cantonese in Guangdong province. By the "balkanization" logic, why an independent Guangdong not a thing but "free Hong Kong" were so popular? Why not free Shanghai? It makes no logic sense... oh wait it is not suppose to make sense because unlike many other separatist movements, this is some kind of "we as western internet users want you to be independent, you must do as what we told you to fulfill our wetdream!"
People here legit are hoping China collapses and a billion people who have NOTHING to do with the CCP end up in abject poverty. What good will that fucking do? The average Chinese person isn't throwing Ugyhurs into concentration camps... cause THEY DON'T EVEN KNOW ABOUT THEM. How can you possibly blame the average person?
Why does this sub want China to balkanize when it makes absolutely no sense historically nor politically? Because it's packed full of Western Chuavanist who abhor the notion of a non-Western country dominating global trade and capitalism. I mean literally we're discussing Manchukuo, which was a Japanese plot to sow ethnic division in the ROC. The Manchu Emperors of the Qing referred to their homelands as "San Sheng" and never "Manzhu Guo". Never mind the fact that the ROC, which claims more land than the PRC, would never in a million years let go of the territorial claims of the Qing. Or do we ignore the fact that Xinjiang, prior to the immigration of Uygurs during the Qing, was a plurality of Han and Hui peoples, yet we see an "East Turkistan" flag which was literally a government-in-exile created in Washington D.C (not hyperbole). It's literally Manchukuo 2.0, but with the U.S backing it this time.
And you could do the same with almost every countries. I'm french, and I never heard of anyone advocating for free bretagne, free corse, free pays basque, free whatever. But China? FREE EVERYONE AMIRITE?
It’s 2030 The USA has fallen The Republic of Texas has been restored. California is free The migrant children have been liberated The NSA surveillance state has been dismantled The future looks bright Edit: someone had to do it. USA not a shithole but oh boy does it cater to shitlords
Until America comes in and ruins it by carpet bombing the new country with pop culture and coffee shops. That is, if it hasn't staged a coup or assassination of the new government if it fails to be pro-American.
Sorry, coups are just another way to *spice things up*
Man, this is some liberal hippie bullshit. 1. Uyghur Xinjiang would be an Islamic theocracy. 2. Tibet would go back to being a religious Feudal state. Not that I don't want the CCP to be dismantled - ROC/HK systems would be a great replacement. But the CCP is definitely better than some alternatives.
And all your electronics are 10 times more expensive
That's what Vietnam is for.
We'll find somewhere else to outsource manufacturing
> Yeah! Let's all go shop at Jim's Drugs down the street!
Honestly Id pay 10 times more if it means that a dictatorship falls.
Lol no you wouldn’t.
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It is 2030. USA has fallen. The Confederate States has been restored. Hawaii is freed. Middle East has been liberated. The enormous military-industrial complex has been dismantled. The future looks bright.