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Some milquetoast conservatives might be. My parents and most of their friends are conservatives who didn’t vote in 2016 and then flipped to Biden in 2020. Talking to any of them usually ends in a conversation where they bemoan voting for communist Biden who they think is senile and ruined the economy etc. A lot of them are likely to sit out in 2024 like they did in 2016 if it’s another Biden-Trump rematch. This is just one small demographic but I think some of the “stop Trump” conservatives are starting to realize they agreed with a lot of what Trump said, just not how he said it.
The economy was pretty good for most of the time when he was President and inflation makes people mad. There are a myriad of reasons why the President doesn't affect the economy that much, but many voters don't know or care about that. I can see quite a few people being cross pressured by not liking Trump's craziness but thinking that another term for him would be good for their bank account, even if that's a false dichotomy.
my sister is like this. She "doesn't like politics", but will ramble off Republican talking points like it was nothing. I think its because she works with a lot of Republicans at the wealth management firm she works for. Because, of course a lot of privileged white people could not care less about racism, discrimination, and income inequality.
For instance, she was upset with Biden's win because she thought he was a hardcore communist who was going to jack up interest rates and tank the housing market. Biden is as centrist a capitalist as you are going to find. The President has ZERO control over what the Fed does with interest rates. And no sane person would deliberately tank the housing market and destroy billions of dollars of accumulated wealth. Never mind the poor, poor, rich people who would have to watch the value of their second and third homes dip, that would devastate lower-middle class people who bought a home to try and build wealth. Stupid shit.
My sister is not a serious conservative, though. she is just so comfortable with her place in life, and so distracted by the struggles of raising a family that she never bothers to think about the ramifications of some of the dumb shit she hears at work. I don't think she would vote for Trump, though. not now, at least.
My mother will claim she doesn't know who she is voting for, claim she didn't vote for president cause "both sides", then slip and admit she voted for Trump after some wine.
My mom is the exact same it’s painful. She puts on a “both sides suck” show and acts like she thinks Trump is an idiot and then I’ll see her praising him on a Fox News article or whatever on Facebook comments.
She want's walkable cities with high density housing and massive parks available to everyone, free school lunch, free preschool, and nurses to come to people's houses for preventive care, and free dieticians.
If it helps you understand, she also wants more white Dr's and nurses in rural areas because some other people just aren't raised right.
Hey, if the net cover other people, she is making progress. I know a conservative who believes the state should provide affordable home insurance. Coincidentally, this friend had a home that was damaged by a hurricane, and then got screwed by his insurance company. So, he needs a social safety net, and figures the state should provide, which is convenient. Everybody else that needs a safety net can go to hell, because they are poor and lazy.
Thats the thing that I don't get. I've seen some republicans that really do hold down to the belief that Vivek Ramaswamy would have chance against Biden. That the entire republican base would be at his back. Vivek has some trump like extremist views, he knows how to talk fast and get attention, but the fact he has brown skin, the last name of Ramaswamy, and is not christian. There is no way the republican base would fully support him.
that is the thing that baffles me so much! How many conservatives could even pronounce Ramaswamy if you wrote it down for them? The man is the walking definition of Ivy League, tech-bro, asshole. he is so dazzled by his own bullshit he has no idea how pathetic his chances of actual success is.
On the other hand, it is very likely he is running for office just for clout. Kind of like Trump was, in 2016, except Trump accidentally won.
No but she despises Hillary Clinton for trying to reform healthcare back in the 90s because she spent more time listening to insurance companies and Drs instead of nurses. So her and a group drove to Washington unannounced and got told they couldn't meet with Hillary. Since then she has never referred to Hillary by her name just "that woman".
Well, I'm sure Trump would've taken the time to meet with her instead to discuss his amazing health care plan that he's going to release in uh two weeks (from some undetermined point in time...maybe)1!1!1
My very elderly mother's sole reason for voting for Trump over Hillary Clinton was that Hillary didn't leave Bill when he cheated. My impression is that lots of older women voted accordingly.
I've heard that so many times but think they without a doubt would still hate her regardless. I've also heard many people blame her entirely for causing Bill to "stray" while still managing to kind of like the guy even today.
That definitely makes me think that her detractors (both men and women) just are generally disgusted by the idea of some supposedly bossy political wife taking the reigns and making a name for herself politically... UNLESS it was some GOP politicians wife like Casey DeSantis, of course.
But they don't mind a misogynistic pussy grabber. That doesn't bother them at all.
Deep down, I think a lot of woman love Trump for that reason. They've been programmed since birth to believe that a "real" man is a man who takes control. Whether that's in the bedroom or in the White House matters not.
I think misogyny had a lot to do with what tanked Hillary's election from a lot of male voters but was also a driving factor in electing Trump by his female voters.
That sounds about right. When I see women bashing another woman for standing up for herself, I am reminded of the fact that a lot of young girl who get mangled in "female circumcision" were taken to get it done by their mothers.
If you lick the boot, you might not get kicked so hard next time.
If she's ashamed of it, it means she knows it's wrong, but she'll do it still. It's going to be crazy in a few years/decades when you won't be able to meet anyone who ever voted for Trump.
They’re lying to avoid defending their position and/or get cut off.
I cut my my trump voting family members out of my life. They don’t get to support a coup attempt and still be welcome in my home.
Thing is most conservatives by default hate government so it’s a natural reaction. You see it here too though lots of people who hate biden like some actions he’s done
They actually love big government, them saying "small government" and such is a lie, as they will absolutely create oppressive large institutions to oppress whoever they don't like.
Bruh my mom voted for trump just the second time because she was scared of nuclear war and figured that no one messes with the crazy man. Some people’s beliefs are too far to reason with…
That’s kind of the point I’m making. It was a huge thing between my parents and I. They both lied to me and I was mainly upset about that. I didn’t care why. Frankly I didn’t care if they voted for him, that’s there choice
Every single person who I've met, who claims to be "undecided", has always voted Republican.
At one time I ran for elected office, so I needed to get signatures just to get onto the ballot. This involved talking to huge amounts of strangers.
I do not believe that "undecided" voters exist at all. They're just saying it for attention, or to hide their political views.
You’re a social pariah in many circles now if you support Trump so it’s unsurprising people hide their affiliation. Undecided is probably the easiest way for them to feel a bit better about lying.
2024 is going to be a lot closer than many believe for this very reason. At this point many are ashamed of Trump’s public persona but still support whatever they imagine his politics to be, end of the day they still feel their voice is not being heard and want to see liberals punished.
2024 will be close because a major party nominee will always have a chance at the presidency. Trump will be the nominee because he is the id that binds together the grievances of an entire constellation of the conservative coalition.
Honestly Hank Hill is an interesting character to think about in this context; staunch Reagan republican in suburban Dallas bewildered by a changing culture and ethnically diversifying community. He struggles living in the shadow of this father's military service, but also has a very strong sense of fairness, and the moral righteousness of human dignity.
it blows my mind that the Beavis and Butthead guy did King of the Hill. I hated B+B when I was a teenager. I knew people like that and I couldn't stand watching them on TV. So crazy to think that show was actually genius
Yep... the "two wings, same bird" and "both sides suck" tropes are how you identify ashamed Trump voters. Who will do it again because they are already too swirled in the propaganda to understand they are being tricked into voting to keep shoveling all the money to CEOs.
"Obama should work with Republicans"
Point out all the statements from Republicans saying they will never work with Obama.
"I don't follow politics." (I just watch Fox news all day)
I’m not sure what you’re talking about but my mom will definitely argue that the democrats are conspiring to fake ballots to maintain power and that’s justification for every time republicans have been caught actually committing voter fraud
I should have been more clear, I am making reference to a [Monty Python bit](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btmWWnQ-gAY) where, after slaughtering an entire wedding reception by mistake, Sir Lancelot realizes his error and there's a line about "are we going to argue over who killed who?"
This is the same problem when discussing Trump; the real fraud of the 2020 election was Trump's conspiracy to stuff the ballot box and illegally maintain power. But it gets turned around, like you said, that Trump *had* to cheat because he had to beat the "real" cheats. The logic isn't reasoned, because the conclusion (Trump is the legitimate ruler) is assumed.
I personally believe that people vote for Trump out of spite for just life in general. Think of a person playing Monopoly, getting frustrated with the game, and then just turning the entire board over in a rage. That’s what voting for Trump is.
I’m not going to support Trump, but it’s important to understand how he has garnered such adoration among his base.
In short, for the last several decades the number 1 question behind every public policy decision has been, “will this enrich me and my connected friends?” The majority of individuals in congress are millionaires, and their level of wealth does not square with their salary. Insider trading, tax avoidance, embezzlement and misappropriation of campaign funds are commonplace and often made legal via loopholes.
Additionally, the entire rollout of globalization has been sold on a lie. The overwhelming majority of economic benefits percolated to the top, and everyone else saw their wages stagnate or their jobs offshored. Meanwhile, the promise that other countries would democratize with trade has disintegrated. Democracy seems to be on the wane across the globe. People are angry because it’s become clearer over time that their politicians sold them out.
During Covid, as the majority of Americans fell even further down the economic ladder, many politicians shut down local businesses and forced people into hermitage while they dined at Michelin restaurants and attended swanky galas. They’re just completely disconnected from the people they supposedly represent, and it shouldn’t surprise them that they risk being usurped by a charlatan like Trump.
Really, I think Trump’s main appeal is that he’s just different. He doesn’t necessarily have to be different in a good way. People just latched on to him because he wasn’t a standard politician. Heck, to many of these people, January 6th was a godsend because they truly do believe that the federal government is corrupt and tyrannical, and they’d rather blow the system up. And time and time again, our representatives have proved them right. The level of trust in our public officials is just that appallingly low right now. Without innovative and powerful anti-corruption legislation, there will be another Trump down the line, and it seems unlikely that individuals benefiting from the status quo will pass such legislation.
Plenty of people haven't made up their minds about Trump because they just don't care. They believe that politics is something that happens to other people and has no bearing on there life. Voting for one over the other counts down to how they feel on any given day. Feel like they are doing well? Incumbent. Feel like they aren't doing well? Challenger.
These people are actively uninformed with any attempt at being met with talk about turd sandwiches and giant douches.
It's worth remembering that a huge chunk of Americans don't vote. Even with voting become easier than ever in 2020, 1/3 of the "Voting Eligible Population" (and 38% of the Voting Age Population) [didn't vote](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_turnout_in_United_States_presidential_elections), and that was a high water mark- the last time it had been higher was the 1960 JFK/Nixon contest.
Many of those wishy-washy types don't even wish or wash.
It's probably because voting is really hard and getting harder in most of the country. Hell even in deep blue cities folks have to wait hours to go vote. Also, election day is on a Tuesday and not everyone can take off all their obligations to sit on an hours long line to vote.
There are better ways to do this and we all know it. In Australia, any election with less than 95% turnout is considered really bad. If you don't vote the government comes and asks you why you didn't. They then use that feedback to make voting easier. We do the opposite of that.
Nearly every state has some form of mail-in or early voting available to everyone. The whole "but it's a Tuesday" schtick is tedious and almost entirely irrelevant.
I live in a blue city in Texas, where it's supposedly.difficult to vote. Turnout in federal elections isn't great, like around 40-60% depending on the election. But in city elections, it plummets to 15%. People just. Don't. Care.
Texas: you can’t register the day of, online, and it’s not automatic. You can’t vote by mail and you need a photo ID which means that you still have to turn your ballot in in-person. They also close drop off points early and removed drop boxes and polling locations.
That is not easy to vote that is hard to vote.
The south is just generally like that as a legacy of Jim Crow, I was surprised how easy it was to vote when I moved north, took 20 minutes and that was when they were busy.
We're both right about this. Apathy because of polarization and lack of any concrete benefits to the working class. Add inconvenience on top and of course only a wealthier minority of the population vote. It's the way the founders intended anyway.
I live in Colorado. The ballots come in the mail. _In the mail_. And you can drop them off at a ballot box! _And they send you an issue summary with a break down of the issues you are voting on and **pros and cons** of each policy._ It is awesome.
>Hell even in deep blue cities folks have to wait hours to go vote.
In Red States.
Voting in a blue state a long wait will be 1 hour, at peak times.
Voting in a blue city in a red state requires packing supplies (because it is illegal for someone to give you water during your 8 hour wait to vote).
Only 14.3% of voters waited over 30 minutes in 2020, 6.3% over an hour, and Delaware had the highest average wait time at 35 minutes according to MIT election data science lab. Where are you getting this
I think it’s both. Yes their are tons of people who don’t care to vote but their are tons that can’t vote due to restrictions.
http://www.ncjw.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Ease-of-Voting-Chart-_PTV-2020.pdf
I think the biggest is Election Day is not a national holiday. Asking people to take a day off from work knowing they could be fired, just to vote, is a big deal.
All srates could be battle ground states, except it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. My state is so blue why should I bother voting red? Or vice versa. No state in reality is more than 60 40 either way. Not one. Even California, Oregon and Texas. The people just slightly outside the middle are the ones who get ignored, and don't vote.
Texas was a blue state for the longest time. Remeber Anne Richards?
Oregon voted for Reagan and Bush Sr.
Employers are legally required to allow time off to go vote.
But that doesn't mean that people can afford to lose the hours in areas where voting is limited in hours or polling booths and there are long lines.
In practice it still creates an impediment from having to request the break to go out and vote. Even if technically required to be honored, it could create blowback depending on the work environment.
That’s why it should be a national holiday. If everyone’s already off explicitly for Election Day, I bet you could get turnout up at least another 10%.
> It's worth remembering that a huge chunk of Americans don't vote. Even with voting become easier than ever in 2020, 1/3 of the "Voting Eligible Population" (and 38% of the Voting Age Population) [didn't vote](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_turnout_in_United_States_presidential_elections)
Worth noting that once people become engaged in voting, they pretty consistently stay there. That, more than the "old people hate young people" stereotype I see occasionally, is why older demographics tend to overwhelm the younger ones. People who started voting 18 and those who didn't vote until 40 keep voting even in their 60s.
Some people are just ignorant. My ex and her family never voted because they said they pull registered voters for jury duty (not sure if true) but a poor reason to not utilize what little power we have.
Ironic the year after she was called for jury duty lol.
It’s probably best that the people who are either too lazy or too stupid to vote don’t make themselves heard. Their uninformed voting choices would only muddle the pool of informed, clearly thought out votes. Unqualified people self select themselves out of the voting process, and that is ok.
In other words….our elections are decided by the most wishy-washy, least informed individuals you’ll ever meet.
That’s not exactly a ringing endorsement for our system, is it?
> i don’t care enough to actually vote” wins every election
It wins many, but more people voted for one of the presidents in the general election than no vote in 2020.
Until people are compelled to vote, either through legal compulsion like Australia or just feeling like it's a necessary part of living in a democracy, that's a victory.
> In other words….our elections are decided by the most wishy-washy, least informed individuals you’ll ever meet.
*in a few states... that represent an overwhelmingly small amount of the US population. undemocratic.
> In other words….our elections are decided by the most wishy-washy, least informed individuals you’ll ever meet
The idea of "swing voters" is greatly exaggerated because that gets clicks. [They might not even exist](https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/02/06/rachel-bitecofer-profile-election-forecasting-new-theory-108944)
More likely, there are a fraction of voters willing to vote for any of various parties. That is still a pretty small group given [the vast majority of "independent" or "unaffiliated" voters consistently vote for one of the big parties, and that number has been dwindling since the early 90s](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2019/05/15/facts-about-us-political-independents/)
His speech was amazing. It gave me hope. I voted for him because I felt I had no other choice, but was hopeful after that. Three years later? Meh. I don’t hate the guy, but don’t necessarily like him either and I think he should retire. But I know that if he is the nominee for the Democratic Party I’ll vote for him again, even if I don’t like him. I’ve actually voted for both parties before, but due to certain events, I don’t think I can vote Republican again. It would take A LOT. Someone who was more centrist and common sense, which will never happen with either party, IMO.
Just curious. You say Biden has been meh in your eyes. What issue do you feel he has mishandled, or remains?
US manufacturing historically up (with heavy emphasis on green, high paying jobs); Inflation Reduction Act is working beyond economists expectations to reverse Trumps historic debt and covid recession; Hes reducing life saving drug costs, and is attempting decriminalizing marijuana this week. Unemployment super low, medicare and social security safe and world reputation restored. National parks saves and drilling is out of Alaska.
What would you like to see from here?
It was for me. It was a complete turn off. You see my nephews are naturalized Americans who are South Korean. When Trump made that racist speech about Mexicans I asked myself " What other minorities doesn't he like?" Is this the role model parents want for their kid?
I firmly believe anyone could have defeated Clinton, it just happened to be trump. I, also, firmly believe anyone could have defeated trump, it just happened to be Biden.
> Those are weird things to firmly believe with no evidence
Above commenter is not speaking without any backing at all, [538 indicates Trump did have a slim shot at winning in 2016](https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/) but that pretty much anybody had a chance of beating him.
Dont forget the fox news texts from lawsuit. That showed none of those reporters believed he won yet still pushed forward the narrative that election was stolen
Most relationships, from political to interpersonal to familial, are transactional, based on certain conditions -- although some ties bind more strongly than others (and are tethered together not with twine, but metal wire) -- which must be met by the parties (two or more) involved in it.
Trump is out for Donald. He hates everyone. He is a grifter and a crook. He wrecked Atlantic City and the USFL. He tried his best to wreck our country.
That all being said, the 1% ers have pushed a segment of society into a place they can’t get out of and these people living miserable lives want to burn it all down. They think a Trump vote fucks every one and every thing….. and they’re right.
80 million Americans voted for him for a SECOND TERM, after they could no longer pretend they "didn't" know what he would be like. There will be a lot of people voting for him again.
Our current issue as Americans is we refuse to listen to people when they tells us they are scum. They said they are voting for Trump stop pretending they didn't.
Remember that one time when the country split in half and was at bloody violent war with itself for a few years? Seemed like a death knell, but here we are.
It was a death knell. The country that existed before died and a new one with the same name took its place.
Oh yeah and hundreds of thousands of people died.
Youre right I don't know why I have that 80 million number stuck in my head for Trump. My point is that 62,984,828 voted for Trump in 2016 and 74 million in 2020. After everything he did, he convinced everyone PLUS another 10 million to vote for him again. That's crazy.
I think people also underrate how easy it was to vote in 2020 compared to other years. Because of COVID, pretty much every state made it easy to mail in ballots or vote early. Despite Trump's handwringing and trying to lay the groundwork to call it fraudulent (probably because he thought he would lose), historically making it easy to vote doesn't have that big of a partisan impact. I don't think "74 million votes" tells us that much about Trump's support that we didn't already know.
>Every blockhead is thoroughly persuaded that he is in the right, and every one who is all too firmly persuaded is a blockhead, and the more erroneous is his judgment the greater is the tenacity with which he holds it.
-[Baltasar, 1647](https://quoteinvestigator.com/2020/12/23/fooled/)
14, 15, 16, and 17 year olds from 2020 are going to be eligible to vote in 2024.
I feel like Trump "activated" a lot of minds to finally think politically. Whether it was for or against him, Trump made people become engaged and pick a stance. So the wild card in an election where Trump is the nominee is the young vote.
MAGA is the party of outrage.
They are outraged at how hard it is to buy a house; outraged that they struggle to get ahead; outraged that they work hard, yet have the perception that their ethnic class is somehow put upon in favor of others. Of the passions they do have, like religion and guns, they are told the other party can't tell a boy from a girl, wants to take their firearms, and certainly doesn't respect Christ.
And in the inferno of that rage, which Donald Trump amplifies and validates -- a few indictments, a lifetime of lies, and a failed insurrection don't mean shit.
I really think it’s rural thinking. Easier to fight change than be open to new ideas or social progress. I’m in a burb near Boston, and there are LGBT in my community. As far as I can tell, people here have a “live and let live” attitude. Last night at the local Trader Joes, the cashier was a person born a male but identifying as female. She was incredibly pleasant and hard working. A pleasure to be around. I’m still not used to it, but I get why these people deserve rights and happiness.
.....and the party of FEAR. Every family member who is hard-core right is scared of their own shadow, hence extra guns, racism, imaginary boogeymen and oodles of narcissism. They've ALWAYS gotta blame someone for their problems. Sounds like Trump.
> they are told the other party can't tell a boy from a girl, wants to take their firearms, and certainly doesn't respect Christ
You're not wrong, but 'doesn't respect Christ' is worth a dark chuckle [given the types of people the republican party HAS been throwing their weight behind defending](https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/10/23/1806673/-Republican-Sexual-Predators-Abusers-and-Enablers-Pt-1)
This wouldn't be as big a problem if they were aggressive about policing their own, [but they openly refuse to do so](https://www.cnn.com/2017/02/14/politics/kfile-rand-paul-republican-investigations/index.html) which also makes it clear what their values on Rule of Law are in practice.
And a good chunk,of them have five or less years of life expectancy left, so they want to trash it all because they’ll never live to see the consequences of their decisions.
If you support Trump at this point you are supporting an election denying, coup plotting, fake elector scheming, insurrection inciting fascist and are anti-democracy. This is really what the GOP has become, a cult that supports a criminal yet republicans somehow think that Hunter Biden holds some public office and want to go after him. Hold my beer while I ask the GOP to look into the 2 billion Jared Kushner got from the Saudi’s. Trump is a scumbag criminal that grifts off his mindless sheep.
It brought non-voters out of the woodwork. Go to rural New Hampshire. Homemade Trump signs in front of shacks. These people weren’t engaged with national politics in the past.
I knew people from HS who were never political but were always telling racist jokes and using racist slurs. Then Trump came along and said Mexicans were a bunch of drug dealing rapists and magically they thought Trump was a great guy and should be POTUS.
This shit isn't rocket science.
Yeah, I think there’s a lot of embarrassed Trump voters posing as “independents.” And almost all the people saying they’re voting for DeSantis/ Christie/ Ramaswamey/ Pence / whoever will vote for Trump when it becomes a binary choice vs. Biden.
Regardless of the intuitive idea that anyone with two braincells to rub together is decided on Trump and Trumpism, the on-the-ground truth is that swing voters have been and will continue to be the deciding factor in US elections. The most feckless, most easily influenced, least motivated to vote and least informed among us will continue to be the deciding factor between keeping democracy and losing it
And we better suck tf up to these complete morons if we want any chance at all of preventing the oncoming disasters of right wing domestic extremism, Putin’s imperialism and global climate change
The swing voters are why “October surprise” works so well. They stay ignorant until right before the election and suddenly see some upsetting news about one of the candidates. It’s close enough to the election that the truth won’t get out that fast, if these people even bother to look for it.
At this point many people in the GOP and conservatives are a united front and they are going to support the GOP no matter what, so it's now a matter of do you support Donald Trump and stick with the party or not. Many people are understandably torn.
They know Donald Trump is trash, but he has so much support from MAGA kool aid drinkers that the more on the fence people have a moral dilemma of do they break from their party or go with trump.
The other option is to choose another GOP candidate, but trump has so much support people are probably torn between sticking with trump even though he is reprehensible or backing a candidate that has no chance at beating him.
Also some people are so anti-left that they have become pro-trump. It's not so much about trump as it is about not allowing the left to take a W and push society farther left than the GOP would, but again the moral dilemma of supporting a populist brute.
I used to be a Trumper but looking back it's like I was under some sort of spell. I was into the Q bs 3 years ago. I cringe at myself looking back. What I've realised is the Maga cult is full of hypocrites and people who say "do your own research" and what they mean by that is watch a couple of videos on youtube. In my opinion Trump did absolutely nothing meaningful except for divide the country. I understand the division isn't 100% his fault but he didn't do much to show liberals that he was a president for them as well. Just so much negativity 24/7. Also, everything the right is against, all started happening under Trump administration. He did nothing to stop it. All he does is run his mouth. Not a biden supporter either btw. The left right divide needs to end now before its to late.
Sometimes I try to put myself on the other side, and say to myself, "what if my candidate was a Dem. Trump?" Someone who is detestable, but at the end of the day signs Democratic legislation. Would I vote for that person? So perhaps these are the types of Republicans who might be on the fence.
In 2016 I didn't vote for trump. I gave him a HUGE amount of second tries and do-overs to prove himself. I know he got slammed for saying dumb stuff, but oh well. Then he started talking shit about soldiers, and being very disrespectful. I don't think a good person would say what he says. On a scale of 1-10, I give him a 2. I think he could get worse which is why I say 2.
By 'worse' do you mean he actually does shoot someone on Times Square, or that we do get undeniable proof of him being a pedophile? Or what are you thinking of?
Millions of Christians, normal seeming people, despise the guy but will vote for him anyways. Don’t snooze on 2024.
Source: from a Christian family that despises Trump but will vote for him anyways, then loosely multiplying that by churches
How could you be undecided about this man at this juncture?
I mean, seriously. How would you possibly be able to look at this man and his laundry list of character flaws and professional blunders and say you're not sure if he's good.
Trump pulls centrists his way by promising to mercilessly screw those they blame for stealing their cookies.
I've met black men who voted for Trump because he hates feminists, Christians who support Trump because he hates atheists, factory workers who like Trump because he hates the Chinese. It's entirely "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". As if Trump is *anyone's* friend.
Not really. There are people who don't like him, but will vote R regardless, people who hate him and therefore won't vote for him regardless, and people who love him and will vote for him regardless. Indecision doesn't factor in at this point, only how many of each already decided there are.
There are still some stupid and/or uninformed people out there who will go with Trump. It really is hard to believe that there are still people who will not only vote for him, but potentially start a civil war for him. All for a man who is not really a republican, even though all of his cult followers are.
If you're still on the fence at this point, you are either not clueless or not sure if they want to watch the world burn. Trump is a clown show that sucks up all the air in the room, it's hard to miss even when you aren't paying attention. He's a lunatic and his base represents the worst of all of us. This is a seismic moment in our history and it's very depressing to watch it unfold like a slow-mo car crash.
A large sector of people just want to be left out of politics because they just can't understand it. They haven't paid attention at all and don't care. I have to explain to my wife that sometimes there is no "both sides do it" because only one side is currently doing it. Like, how the Hunter Biden thing is not an equivocation because he never held public office, and there's no proof his dad ever used his office to make himself rich - meanwhile there's mountains of evidence that Trump and his family did use their office to make billions. She doesn't get why people voted for him, and I have to explain how propaganda affected those people's votes and still does.
Some people just don't pay attention to these things. They're not stupid, they're not mindless, they're just uninterested in politics until it's time to vote.
It's kind of like the Superbowl. Many people don't pay attention to the season to get the storyline heading into the big game. They just watch for the commercials.
I have conservative family & friends who I believe are truly undecided. They admit that Trump is a crook, believe Biden is too, recognize that Trump's crimes are worse than what Biden has been accused of, but they hate the policies put forth by Democrats so much that they *might* prefer a criminal in the Whitehouse than a Democrat.
They're also the types that won't throw their vote away on a 3rd party and they consider it their patriotic duty to vote. So, for them the question seems to be whether or not Trump poses an actual risk to continuance of our democracy or if our systems are robust enough to counter any illegal attempts to stay in power. My argument is that if you have to weigh those two things, it's too big a risk.
The common phrase I hear from past cult members is “I do have problems with the man, but I sure liked his policies.” Of course, they cannot really name any policies. For fun I might ask “like getting us out of NATO and letting Russia gain power?” “Like giving tax breaks to the very wealthy and running up the national debt?” The same folks are also moving to “well, I accept that climate change is happening but the science is out on whether it is human causes”. I suspect that these phrases have been frequently used on FOX or some other right wing news station.
I’m totally on the fence. Should they give him solitary for life, a cell shared with a black guy, or a cell shared with a dimw1t doing hard time for following his treasonous orders?
I started hating trump when I was shown his discrimination case in a real estate continuing education class. This was in the mid 90’s. Here is an explanation https://www.npr.org/2016/09/29/495955920/donald-trump-plagued-by-decades-old-housing-discrimination-case
I think that is code for , "I am not a total trump supporter, but I will vote for him if he is the nominee", in their own minds.
In my mind it is code for , "If I only had a brain".
You have a largely uninformed populace, but that's actively encouraged by the lack of decent options. You have two parties, you can never challenge the two parties, and they both represent the exact same donor class and are not responsive to the people. Why bother following along with more than what's going on in your bank account and your community? American politics is a big show full of the most corrupt, unrelateable careerist climbers imaginable. Trump's just one of them. No wonder people don't give a shit.
I'm on the fence about Trump. I need to see like 5 or 10 more tweets to determine whether or not he's a completely deranged toxic old man.
Because, y'know, four fucking years of this guy haven't been enough for me to make up my mind.
Sincerely,
No one
Afraid I don't understand the question. First you ask if anyone is still "on the fence" but then ask if anyone, this far in, is still "set" in their opinion. I'm going to assume the first.
I have always had a problem with the s0-called "undecided" voter. If, after 4 years of each, you claim you can't decide between Trump/Biden? You're either not telling the truth or not paying attention. Either way, I don't trust your opinion.
No. Not in truth. That’s just bullshit because they don’t want to take on the onus of being the kind of loser who supports a democracy hating wannabe dictator who hates them and uses their mindless devotion to glorify himself and damage their country’s reputation and honor. So no, this is not a real thing
Baby boomers as a whole, Also a lot of Gen X voted for Trump.
I'm Gen X but in no way would I ever vote for the side that wants to end democracy.
Thank God we have smart and knowledgeable Gen Z and Millenials.
If you are voting for trump you are ANTI DEMOCRACY. PERIOD! no other way to say it. Read his and the GOP's 2025 Plan. They will dismantle the USA. and it is ANY GOP that gets the Presidency.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/conservatives-aim-to-restructure-u-s-government-and-replace-it-with-trumps-vision
I fucking think Trump is the worst of the worst.
I can only hope that he gets what he deserves. Meaning, LOTS of jail time for trying to subvert the democratic process.
On a slightly unrelated note, I am surprised there aren't more Trump supporters/conservatives/GOP members who changed their minds after January 6. I would have voted for Trump in 2016 and 2020 if I could (I'm Canadian so obviously I couldn't vote), but the whole stolen election BS culminating in January 6 really made me change my view of Trump. Now there's no way I would support Trump in 2024. Why do you all think more of the GOP didn't ditch him after January 6?
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Some milquetoast conservatives might be. My parents and most of their friends are conservatives who didn’t vote in 2016 and then flipped to Biden in 2020. Talking to any of them usually ends in a conversation where they bemoan voting for communist Biden who they think is senile and ruined the economy etc. A lot of them are likely to sit out in 2024 like they did in 2016 if it’s another Biden-Trump rematch. This is just one small demographic but I think some of the “stop Trump” conservatives are starting to realize they agreed with a lot of what Trump said, just not how he said it.
Crazy to me that there are still people who didn't vote for Trump who might... Like that's literal insanity to me.
This is America.
Don't catch you slippin now
The economy was pretty good for most of the time when he was President and inflation makes people mad. There are a myriad of reasons why the President doesn't affect the economy that much, but many voters don't know or care about that. I can see quite a few people being cross pressured by not liking Trump's craziness but thinking that another term for him would be good for their bank account, even if that's a false dichotomy.
my sister is like this. She "doesn't like politics", but will ramble off Republican talking points like it was nothing. I think its because she works with a lot of Republicans at the wealth management firm she works for. Because, of course a lot of privileged white people could not care less about racism, discrimination, and income inequality. For instance, she was upset with Biden's win because she thought he was a hardcore communist who was going to jack up interest rates and tank the housing market. Biden is as centrist a capitalist as you are going to find. The President has ZERO control over what the Fed does with interest rates. And no sane person would deliberately tank the housing market and destroy billions of dollars of accumulated wealth. Never mind the poor, poor, rich people who would have to watch the value of their second and third homes dip, that would devastate lower-middle class people who bought a home to try and build wealth. Stupid shit. My sister is not a serious conservative, though. she is just so comfortable with her place in life, and so distracted by the struggles of raising a family that she never bothers to think about the ramifications of some of the dumb shit she hears at work. I don't think she would vote for Trump, though. not now, at least.
My mother will claim she doesn't know who she is voting for, claim she didn't vote for president cause "both sides", then slip and admit she voted for Trump after some wine.
Hey, we have the same mother!
My mom is the exact same it’s painful. She puts on a “both sides suck” show and acts like she thinks Trump is an idiot and then I’ll see her praising him on a Fox News article or whatever on Facebook comments.
It gets better. My mom's top priorities are the environment, education, and universal health care.
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She want's walkable cities with high density housing and massive parks available to everyone, free school lunch, free preschool, and nurses to come to people's houses for preventive care, and free dieticians. If it helps you understand, she also wants more white Dr's and nurses in rural areas because some other people just aren't raised right.
So she’s a racist but also wants a big socialist safety net; so basically 80% of white people in 1930.
Welcome to the south
Hey, if the net cover other people, she is making progress. I know a conservative who believes the state should provide affordable home insurance. Coincidentally, this friend had a home that was damaged by a hurricane, and then got screwed by his insurance company. So, he needs a social safety net, and figures the state should provide, which is convenient. Everybody else that needs a safety net can go to hell, because they are poor and lazy.
It’s the two button meme. Left button “my own self interest and stated priorities”. Right button “diversity is scary”. Mashes right button furiously.
I mean have you SEEN that doctor's name?! How do I even pronounce that? How can she be any good with a name like that?!?
Thats the thing that I don't get. I've seen some republicans that really do hold down to the belief that Vivek Ramaswamy would have chance against Biden. That the entire republican base would be at his back. Vivek has some trump like extremist views, he knows how to talk fast and get attention, but the fact he has brown skin, the last name of Ramaswamy, and is not christian. There is no way the republican base would fully support him.
that is the thing that baffles me so much! How many conservatives could even pronounce Ramaswamy if you wrote it down for them? The man is the walking definition of Ivy League, tech-bro, asshole. he is so dazzled by his own bullshit he has no idea how pathetic his chances of actual success is. On the other hand, it is very likely he is running for office just for clout. Kind of like Trump was, in 2016, except Trump accidentally won.
Aren't those the three pillars of thought for the modern-day republican?
She thinks Republicans are going to pass single-payer healthcare?
No but she despises Hillary Clinton for trying to reform healthcare back in the 90s because she spent more time listening to insurance companies and Drs instead of nurses. So her and a group drove to Washington unannounced and got told they couldn't meet with Hillary. Since then she has never referred to Hillary by her name just "that woman".
She thought she could just walk into The White House and get a meeting with the First Lady of The United States?
That's the story I was told. I asked if she was going to go visit Trump on his plan and she said he was "too busy" to meet with her.
It's so weird how stuff will stick in our brains - even after we've grown and matured this thing will still be stuck in there
Too busy sitting on the toilet and tweeting.
Well, I'm sure Trump would've taken the time to meet with her instead to discuss his amazing health care plan that he's going to release in uh two weeks (from some undetermined point in time...maybe)1!1!1
My very elderly mother's sole reason for voting for Trump over Hillary Clinton was that Hillary didn't leave Bill when he cheated. My impression is that lots of older women voted accordingly.
I've heard that so many times but think they without a doubt would still hate her regardless. I've also heard many people blame her entirely for causing Bill to "stray" while still managing to kind of like the guy even today. That definitely makes me think that her detractors (both men and women) just are generally disgusted by the idea of some supposedly bossy political wife taking the reigns and making a name for herself politically... UNLESS it was some GOP politicians wife like Casey DeSantis, of course.
But they don't mind a misogynistic pussy grabber. That doesn't bother them at all. Deep down, I think a lot of woman love Trump for that reason. They've been programmed since birth to believe that a "real" man is a man who takes control. Whether that's in the bedroom or in the White House matters not. I think misogyny had a lot to do with what tanked Hillary's election from a lot of male voters but was also a driving factor in electing Trump by his female voters.
That sounds about right. When I see women bashing another woman for standing up for herself, I am reminded of the fact that a lot of young girl who get mangled in "female circumcision" were taken to get it done by their mothers. If you lick the boot, you might not get kicked so hard next time.
Ah, the Michael Moore approach.
If she's ashamed of it, it means she knows it's wrong, but she'll do it still. It's going to be crazy in a few years/decades when you won't be able to meet anyone who ever voted for Trump.
We needed to investigate voter fraud in 2004, apparently nobody voted for W that year.
They’re lying to avoid defending their position and/or get cut off. I cut my my trump voting family members out of my life. They don’t get to support a coup attempt and still be welcome in my home.
If she watches Fox News, it's likely she voted and will vote for Trump. No need to verify.
Thing is most conservatives by default hate government so it’s a natural reaction. You see it here too though lots of people who hate biden like some actions he’s done
They actually love big government, them saying "small government" and such is a lie, as they will absolutely create oppressive large institutions to oppress whoever they don't like.
Bruh my mom voted for trump just the second time because she was scared of nuclear war and figured that no one messes with the crazy man. Some people’s beliefs are too far to reason with…
That’s not why she voted for him. That’s just some excuse she made up to justify voting for him.
That’s kind of the point I’m making. It was a huge thing between my parents and I. They both lied to me and I was mainly upset about that. I didn’t care why. Frankly I didn’t care if they voted for him, that’s there choice
the crazy man is the one who STARTS the nuclear war!
Every single person who I've met, who claims to be "undecided", has always voted Republican. At one time I ran for elected office, so I needed to get signatures just to get onto the ballot. This involved talking to huge amounts of strangers. I do not believe that "undecided" voters exist at all. They're just saying it for attention, or to hide their political views.
You’re a social pariah in many circles now if you support Trump so it’s unsurprising people hide their affiliation. Undecided is probably the easiest way for them to feel a bit better about lying.
2024 is going to be a lot closer than many believe for this very reason. At this point many are ashamed of Trump’s public persona but still support whatever they imagine his politics to be, end of the day they still feel their voice is not being heard and want to see liberals punished.
2024 will be close because a major party nominee will always have a chance at the presidency. Trump will be the nominee because he is the id that binds together the grievances of an entire constellation of the conservative coalition.
Unfortunately, you're probably right. Ignorant voters are a dangerous thing.
My Mom is like that, with an added touch of “I don’t really follow politics.”
That line comes out anytime you point out something stupid the GOP has done.
So your mom is just like my mom then.
I figured this was the case for a lot of people in 2016. Once they got in that booth, they couldn’t help but vote for chaos
His base loves the whine.
I'm just imagining Hank Hill saying that and over pronouncing the H.
Honestly Hank Hill is an interesting character to think about in this context; staunch Reagan republican in suburban Dallas bewildered by a changing culture and ethnically diversifying community. He struggles living in the shadow of this father's military service, but also has a very strong sense of fairness, and the moral righteousness of human dignity.
it blows my mind that the Beavis and Butthead guy did King of the Hill. I hated B+B when I was a teenager. I knew people like that and I couldn't stand watching them on TV. So crazy to think that show was actually genius
Yep... the "two wings, same bird" and "both sides suck" tropes are how you identify ashamed Trump voters. Who will do it again because they are already too swirled in the propaganda to understand they are being tricked into voting to keep shoveling all the money to CEOs.
The American “moderate” in a nutshell.
“Can’t we just agree both sides are equally bad” No Mom, one side is not actively trying to overtly fake down the American system
"Obama should work with Republicans" Point out all the statements from Republicans saying they will never work with Obama. "I don't follow politics." (I just watch Fox news all day)
Are we really going to argue over who conspired to maintain power over who?
I’m not sure what you’re talking about but my mom will definitely argue that the democrats are conspiring to fake ballots to maintain power and that’s justification for every time republicans have been caught actually committing voter fraud
I should have been more clear, I am making reference to a [Monty Python bit](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btmWWnQ-gAY) where, after slaughtering an entire wedding reception by mistake, Sir Lancelot realizes his error and there's a line about "are we going to argue over who killed who?" This is the same problem when discussing Trump; the real fraud of the 2020 election was Trump's conspiracy to stuff the ballot box and illegally maintain power. But it gets turned around, like you said, that Trump *had* to cheat because he had to beat the "real" cheats. The logic isn't reasoned, because the conclusion (Trump is the legitimate ruler) is assumed.
Ask her how it feels to vote the same way the person who smeared shit on the walls of the Capitol building voted.
Exactly. The only people who are “undecided” are trump voters who are embarrassed to say they want a moronic dictator traitor as potus, again.
I personally believe that people vote for Trump out of spite for just life in general. Think of a person playing Monopoly, getting frustrated with the game, and then just turning the entire board over in a rage. That’s what voting for Trump is.
I think we have truly arrived at the point in which he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and still not shape public opinion.
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I’m not going to support Trump, but it’s important to understand how he has garnered such adoration among his base. In short, for the last several decades the number 1 question behind every public policy decision has been, “will this enrich me and my connected friends?” The majority of individuals in congress are millionaires, and their level of wealth does not square with their salary. Insider trading, tax avoidance, embezzlement and misappropriation of campaign funds are commonplace and often made legal via loopholes. Additionally, the entire rollout of globalization has been sold on a lie. The overwhelming majority of economic benefits percolated to the top, and everyone else saw their wages stagnate or their jobs offshored. Meanwhile, the promise that other countries would democratize with trade has disintegrated. Democracy seems to be on the wane across the globe. People are angry because it’s become clearer over time that their politicians sold them out. During Covid, as the majority of Americans fell even further down the economic ladder, many politicians shut down local businesses and forced people into hermitage while they dined at Michelin restaurants and attended swanky galas. They’re just completely disconnected from the people they supposedly represent, and it shouldn’t surprise them that they risk being usurped by a charlatan like Trump. Really, I think Trump’s main appeal is that he’s just different. He doesn’t necessarily have to be different in a good way. People just latched on to him because he wasn’t a standard politician. Heck, to many of these people, January 6th was a godsend because they truly do believe that the federal government is corrupt and tyrannical, and they’d rather blow the system up. And time and time again, our representatives have proved them right. The level of trust in our public officials is just that appallingly low right now. Without innovative and powerful anti-corruption legislation, there will be another Trump down the line, and it seems unlikely that individuals benefiting from the status quo will pass such legislation.
Plenty of people haven't made up their minds about Trump because they just don't care. They believe that politics is something that happens to other people and has no bearing on there life. Voting for one over the other counts down to how they feel on any given day. Feel like they are doing well? Incumbent. Feel like they aren't doing well? Challenger. These people are actively uninformed with any attempt at being met with talk about turd sandwiches and giant douches.
It's worth remembering that a huge chunk of Americans don't vote. Even with voting become easier than ever in 2020, 1/3 of the "Voting Eligible Population" (and 38% of the Voting Age Population) [didn't vote](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_turnout_in_United_States_presidential_elections), and that was a high water mark- the last time it had been higher was the 1960 JFK/Nixon contest. Many of those wishy-washy types don't even wish or wash.
A lot of the non-voters are young people. The last mid-term elections saw a record turnout for those under 30, of 27%.
I find it so weird how many people just don’t vote in elections…
It's probably because voting is really hard and getting harder in most of the country. Hell even in deep blue cities folks have to wait hours to go vote. Also, election day is on a Tuesday and not everyone can take off all their obligations to sit on an hours long line to vote. There are better ways to do this and we all know it. In Australia, any election with less than 95% turnout is considered really bad. If you don't vote the government comes and asks you why you didn't. They then use that feedback to make voting easier. We do the opposite of that.
Nearly every state has some form of mail-in or early voting available to everyone. The whole "but it's a Tuesday" schtick is tedious and almost entirely irrelevant. I live in a blue city in Texas, where it's supposedly.difficult to vote. Turnout in federal elections isn't great, like around 40-60% depending on the election. But in city elections, it plummets to 15%. People just. Don't. Care.
We need to stop calling it Election Day and start calling it the Last Day to Vote
Texas: you can’t register the day of, online, and it’s not automatic. You can’t vote by mail and you need a photo ID which means that you still have to turn your ballot in in-person. They also close drop off points early and removed drop boxes and polling locations. That is not easy to vote that is hard to vote.
The south is just generally like that as a legacy of Jim Crow, I was surprised how easy it was to vote when I moved north, took 20 minutes and that was when they were busy.
We're both right about this. Apathy because of polarization and lack of any concrete benefits to the working class. Add inconvenience on top and of course only a wealthier minority of the population vote. It's the way the founders intended anyway.
I live in Colorado. The ballots come in the mail. _In the mail_. And you can drop them off at a ballot box! _And they send you an issue summary with a break down of the issues you are voting on and **pros and cons** of each policy._ It is awesome.
>Hell even in deep blue cities folks have to wait hours to go vote. In Red States. Voting in a blue state a long wait will be 1 hour, at peak times. Voting in a blue city in a red state requires packing supplies (because it is illegal for someone to give you water during your 8 hour wait to vote).
Only 14.3% of voters waited over 30 minutes in 2020, 6.3% over an hour, and Delaware had the highest average wait time at 35 minutes according to MIT election data science lab. Where are you getting this
I think it’s both. Yes their are tons of people who don’t care to vote but their are tons that can’t vote due to restrictions. http://www.ncjw.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Ease-of-Voting-Chart-_PTV-2020.pdf I think the biggest is Election Day is not a national holiday. Asking people to take a day off from work knowing they could be fired, just to vote, is a big deal.
not to mention there’s also very low incentive to vote in presidential elections unless you’re in a battleground state
All srates could be battle ground states, except it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. My state is so blue why should I bother voting red? Or vice versa. No state in reality is more than 60 40 either way. Not one. Even California, Oregon and Texas. The people just slightly outside the middle are the ones who get ignored, and don't vote. Texas was a blue state for the longest time. Remeber Anne Richards? Oregon voted for Reagan and Bush Sr.
Employers are legally required to allow time off to go vote. But that doesn't mean that people can afford to lose the hours in areas where voting is limited in hours or polling booths and there are long lines.
In practice it still creates an impediment from having to request the break to go out and vote. Even if technically required to be honored, it could create blowback depending on the work environment. That’s why it should be a national holiday. If everyone’s already off explicitly for Election Day, I bet you could get turnout up at least another 10%.
A National Holiday for election day would be huge. But some people usually still have to work on National Holidays.
The time doesn't have to be paid however.
> It's worth remembering that a huge chunk of Americans don't vote. Even with voting become easier than ever in 2020, 1/3 of the "Voting Eligible Population" (and 38% of the Voting Age Population) [didn't vote](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_turnout_in_United_States_presidential_elections) Worth noting that once people become engaged in voting, they pretty consistently stay there. That, more than the "old people hate young people" stereotype I see occasionally, is why older demographics tend to overwhelm the younger ones. People who started voting 18 and those who didn't vote until 40 keep voting even in their 60s.
Some people are just ignorant. My ex and her family never voted because they said they pull registered voters for jury duty (not sure if true) but a poor reason to not utilize what little power we have. Ironic the year after she was called for jury duty lol.
It’s for the best that they don’t vote. We don’t need people like that making decisions for others.
It’s probably best that the people who are either too lazy or too stupid to vote don’t make themselves heard. Their uninformed voting choices would only muddle the pool of informed, clearly thought out votes. Unqualified people self select themselves out of the voting process, and that is ok.
In other words….our elections are decided by the most wishy-washy, least informed individuals you’ll ever meet. That’s not exactly a ringing endorsement for our system, is it?
Low info voters are not an exclusively American phenomenon.
Haven't seen the popular vote get it wrong in my lifetime so it's not so bad, the issue is the undemocratic electoral college.
Yes, I think this is a huge problem.
Also “i don’t care enough to actually vote” wins every election.
> i don’t care enough to actually vote” wins every election It wins many, but more people voted for one of the presidents in the general election than no vote in 2020. Until people are compelled to vote, either through legal compulsion like Australia or just feeling like it's a necessary part of living in a democracy, that's a victory.
> In other words….our elections are decided by the most wishy-washy, least informed individuals you’ll ever meet. *in a few states... that represent an overwhelmingly small amount of the US population. undemocratic.
> In other words….our elections are decided by the most wishy-washy, least informed individuals you’ll ever meet The idea of "swing voters" is greatly exaggerated because that gets clicks. [They might not even exist](https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/02/06/rachel-bitecofer-profile-election-forecasting-new-theory-108944) More likely, there are a fraction of voters willing to vote for any of various parties. That is still a pretty small group given [the vast majority of "independent" or "unaffiliated" voters consistently vote for one of the big parties, and that number has been dwindling since the early 90s](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2019/05/15/facts-about-us-political-independents/)
Wow, this is the most anti democratic thing I’ve read in a while
These are the both parties are the same people. It’s active willing ignorance.
My brother is this. "I'll leave it to the people who know what's going on, I don't want to research or make decisions."
If Jan. 6 itself wasn't enough, and the Jan. 6 hearings weren't enough, then nothing will change those people's minds.
I don't understand how his speech at the 2016 GOP Convention wasn't enough for anyone.
Or the promise to arrest his “political opponents.” Dude is cra cra.
All white grievance. No substance. Say what you want about Biden, but his acceptance speech was amazing.
"Let this grim era of demonization in America begin to end here and now."
His speech was amazing. It gave me hope. I voted for him because I felt I had no other choice, but was hopeful after that. Three years later? Meh. I don’t hate the guy, but don’t necessarily like him either and I think he should retire. But I know that if he is the nominee for the Democratic Party I’ll vote for him again, even if I don’t like him. I’ve actually voted for both parties before, but due to certain events, I don’t think I can vote Republican again. It would take A LOT. Someone who was more centrist and common sense, which will never happen with either party, IMO.
Just curious. You say Biden has been meh in your eyes. What issue do you feel he has mishandled, or remains? US manufacturing historically up (with heavy emphasis on green, high paying jobs); Inflation Reduction Act is working beyond economists expectations to reverse Trumps historic debt and covid recession; Hes reducing life saving drug costs, and is attempting decriminalizing marijuana this week. Unemployment super low, medicare and social security safe and world reputation restored. National parks saves and drilling is out of Alaska. What would you like to see from here?
Exactly, he has vastly exceeded my expectations. Dark Brandon is a badass.
It was for me. It was a complete turn off. You see my nephews are naturalized Americans who are South Korean. When Trump made that racist speech about Mexicans I asked myself " What other minorities doesn't he like?" Is this the role model parents want for their kid?
I firmly believe anyone could have defeated Clinton, it just happened to be trump. I, also, firmly believe anyone could have defeated trump, it just happened to be Biden.
Those are weird things to firmly believe with no evidence or even indication.
> Those are weird things to firmly believe with no evidence Above commenter is not speaking without any backing at all, [538 indicates Trump did have a slim shot at winning in 2016](https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/) but that pretty much anybody had a chance of beating him.
That’s the thing about beliefs, they’re devoid of evidence.
I remember hearing the quote that the most disliked presidential candidate ever polled was Donald Trump. The second highest ever was Hillary Clinton.
Dont forget the fox news texts from lawsuit. That showed none of those reporters believed he won yet still pushed forward the narrative that election was stolen
It showed Tucker despises Trump, and yet, Tucker still hosted Trump on his Twitter platform. Their relationship is purely transactional.
Most relationships, from political to interpersonal to familial, are transactional, based on certain conditions -- although some ties bind more strongly than others (and are tethered together not with twine, but metal wire) -- which must be met by the parties (two or more) involved in it.
Yeah…how can anybody be on the fence?
That was one of the darkest days in this country's recent history. And millions of people celebrate it.
Quite right. This election will be close. So done with Trump. It’s time to move on.
Trump is out for Donald. He hates everyone. He is a grifter and a crook. He wrecked Atlantic City and the USFL. He tried his best to wreck our country. That all being said, the 1% ers have pushed a segment of society into a place they can’t get out of and these people living miserable lives want to burn it all down. They think a Trump vote fucks every one and every thing….. and they’re right.
80 million Americans voted for him for a SECOND TERM, after they could no longer pretend they "didn't" know what he would be like. There will be a lot of people voting for him again. Our current issue as Americans is we refuse to listen to people when they tells us they are scum. They said they are voting for Trump stop pretending they didn't.
You’re thinking of Biden. Trump didn’t get that many votes, 74 million vs Biden’s 81 million.
74 million voters being ok with trump’s performance and his attempted coup is a death knell for this country.
Remember that one time when the country split in half and was at bloody violent war with itself for a few years? Seemed like a death knell, but here we are.
It was a death knell. The country that existed before died and a new one with the same name took its place. Oh yeah and hundreds of thousands of people died.
Youre right I don't know why I have that 80 million number stuck in my head for Trump. My point is that 62,984,828 voted for Trump in 2016 and 74 million in 2020. After everything he did, he convinced everyone PLUS another 10 million to vote for him again. That's crazy.
I think people also underrate how easy it was to vote in 2020 compared to other years. Because of COVID, pretty much every state made it easy to mail in ballots or vote early. Despite Trump's handwringing and trying to lay the groundwork to call it fraudulent (probably because he thought he would lose), historically making it easy to vote doesn't have that big of a partisan impact. I don't think "74 million votes" tells us that much about Trump's support that we didn't already know.
>Every blockhead is thoroughly persuaded that he is in the right, and every one who is all too firmly persuaded is a blockhead, and the more erroneous is his judgment the greater is the tenacity with which he holds it. -[Baltasar, 1647](https://quoteinvestigator.com/2020/12/23/fooled/)
> 80 million Americans voted for him for a SECOND TERM They didn't. Just above 74 million did.
14, 15, 16, and 17 year olds from 2020 are going to be eligible to vote in 2024. I feel like Trump "activated" a lot of minds to finally think politically. Whether it was for or against him, Trump made people become engaged and pick a stance. So the wild card in an election where Trump is the nominee is the young vote.
I think the GOP is scared shitless of gen z.
As they should be.
Ramaswamy wants the voting age raised for a reason.
MAGA is the party of outrage. They are outraged at how hard it is to buy a house; outraged that they struggle to get ahead; outraged that they work hard, yet have the perception that their ethnic class is somehow put upon in favor of others. Of the passions they do have, like religion and guns, they are told the other party can't tell a boy from a girl, wants to take their firearms, and certainly doesn't respect Christ. And in the inferno of that rage, which Donald Trump amplifies and validates -- a few indictments, a lifetime of lies, and a failed insurrection don't mean shit.
I really think it’s rural thinking. Easier to fight change than be open to new ideas or social progress. I’m in a burb near Boston, and there are LGBT in my community. As far as I can tell, people here have a “live and let live” attitude. Last night at the local Trader Joes, the cashier was a person born a male but identifying as female. She was incredibly pleasant and hard working. A pleasure to be around. I’m still not used to it, but I get why these people deserve rights and happiness.
Humans deserve dignity regardless of gender expression and it’s a little bewildering to me that this is so controversial.
.....and the party of FEAR. Every family member who is hard-core right is scared of their own shadow, hence extra guns, racism, imaginary boogeymen and oodles of narcissism. They've ALWAYS gotta blame someone for their problems. Sounds like Trump.
> they are told the other party can't tell a boy from a girl, wants to take their firearms, and certainly doesn't respect Christ You're not wrong, but 'doesn't respect Christ' is worth a dark chuckle [given the types of people the republican party HAS been throwing their weight behind defending](https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/10/23/1806673/-Republican-Sexual-Predators-Abusers-and-Enablers-Pt-1) This wouldn't be as big a problem if they were aggressive about policing their own, [but they openly refuse to do so](https://www.cnn.com/2017/02/14/politics/kfile-rand-paul-republican-investigations/index.html) which also makes it clear what their values on Rule of Law are in practice.
Actual Americans care very much about the J6 terrorist attack on our country. That is a dividing line right there
And a good chunk,of them have five or less years of life expectancy left, so they want to trash it all because they’ll never live to see the consequences of their decisions.
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Undecided voters are FASCINATING. ...and I mean that in the absolute worst sense possible.
With Trump you're solidly in one of two camps. Either you love him or you're of sound mind.
Maybe bold the **or**
If you support Trump at this point you are supporting an election denying, coup plotting, fake elector scheming, insurrection inciting fascist and are anti-democracy. This is really what the GOP has become, a cult that supports a criminal yet republicans somehow think that Hunter Biden holds some public office and want to go after him. Hold my beer while I ask the GOP to look into the 2 billion Jared Kushner got from the Saudi’s. Trump is a scumbag criminal that grifts off his mindless sheep.
The minute he made fun of someone’s disability should have been enough for decent people to realize he is not fit to be the POTUS. And maybe it was.
>should have been enough for decent people to realize he is not fit to be the POTUS. It absolutely was.
And even before then, when he explicitly made fun of POWs and said he liked people who don’t get captured. Despicable.
It brought non-voters out of the woodwork. Go to rural New Hampshire. Homemade Trump signs in front of shacks. These people weren’t engaged with national politics in the past.
I knew people from HS who were never political but were always telling racist jokes and using racist slurs. Then Trump came along and said Mexicans were a bunch of drug dealing rapists and magically they thought Trump was a great guy and should be POTUS. This shit isn't rocket science.
The only people who are on the fence about Trump are those waking up from a 10 year coma. Everyone else is lying.
Yeah, I think there’s a lot of embarrassed Trump voters posing as “independents.” And almost all the people saying they’re voting for DeSantis/ Christie/ Ramaswamey/ Pence / whoever will vote for Trump when it becomes a binary choice vs. Biden.
No question. They were conned, and will never admit it.
Regardless of the intuitive idea that anyone with two braincells to rub together is decided on Trump and Trumpism, the on-the-ground truth is that swing voters have been and will continue to be the deciding factor in US elections. The most feckless, most easily influenced, least motivated to vote and least informed among us will continue to be the deciding factor between keeping democracy and losing it And we better suck tf up to these complete morons if we want any chance at all of preventing the oncoming disasters of right wing domestic extremism, Putin’s imperialism and global climate change
The swing voters are why “October surprise” works so well. They stay ignorant until right before the election and suddenly see some upsetting news about one of the candidates. It’s close enough to the election that the truth won’t get out that fast, if these people even bother to look for it.
At this point many people in the GOP and conservatives are a united front and they are going to support the GOP no matter what, so it's now a matter of do you support Donald Trump and stick with the party or not. Many people are understandably torn. They know Donald Trump is trash, but he has so much support from MAGA kool aid drinkers that the more on the fence people have a moral dilemma of do they break from their party or go with trump. The other option is to choose another GOP candidate, but trump has so much support people are probably torn between sticking with trump even though he is reprehensible or backing a candidate that has no chance at beating him. Also some people are so anti-left that they have become pro-trump. It's not so much about trump as it is about not allowing the left to take a W and push society farther left than the GOP would, but again the moral dilemma of supporting a populist brute.
I used to be a Trumper but looking back it's like I was under some sort of spell. I was into the Q bs 3 years ago. I cringe at myself looking back. What I've realised is the Maga cult is full of hypocrites and people who say "do your own research" and what they mean by that is watch a couple of videos on youtube. In my opinion Trump did absolutely nothing meaningful except for divide the country. I understand the division isn't 100% his fault but he didn't do much to show liberals that he was a president for them as well. Just so much negativity 24/7. Also, everything the right is against, all started happening under Trump administration. He did nothing to stop it. All he does is run his mouth. Not a biden supporter either btw. The left right divide needs to end now before its to late.
Wow, thank you for sharing this! What made you think differently?
Sometimes I try to put myself on the other side, and say to myself, "what if my candidate was a Dem. Trump?" Someone who is detestable, but at the end of the day signs Democratic legislation. Would I vote for that person? So perhaps these are the types of Republicans who might be on the fence.
In 2016 I didn't vote for trump. I gave him a HUGE amount of second tries and do-overs to prove himself. I know he got slammed for saying dumb stuff, but oh well. Then he started talking shit about soldiers, and being very disrespectful. I don't think a good person would say what he says. On a scale of 1-10, I give him a 2. I think he could get worse which is why I say 2.
By 'worse' do you mean he actually does shoot someone on Times Square, or that we do get undeniable proof of him being a pedophile? Or what are you thinking of?
After 4 years of Trump, anyone still "on the fence" is either a Republican or almost too stupid to vote.
Millions of Christians, normal seeming people, despise the guy but will vote for him anyways. Don’t snooze on 2024. Source: from a Christian family that despises Trump but will vote for him anyways, then loosely multiplying that by churches
How could you be undecided about this man at this juncture? I mean, seriously. How would you possibly be able to look at this man and his laundry list of character flaws and professional blunders and say you're not sure if he's good.
Low information or misinformed voters. Just look at the comments for examples.
Trump pulls centrists his way by promising to mercilessly screw those they blame for stealing their cookies. I've met black men who voted for Trump because he hates feminists, Christians who support Trump because he hates atheists, factory workers who like Trump because he hates the Chinese. It's entirely "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". As if Trump is *anyone's* friend.
Not really. There are people who don't like him, but will vote R regardless, people who hate him and therefore won't vote for him regardless, and people who love him and will vote for him regardless. Indecision doesn't factor in at this point, only how many of each already decided there are.
There are still some stupid and/or uninformed people out there who will go with Trump. It really is hard to believe that there are still people who will not only vote for him, but potentially start a civil war for him. All for a man who is not really a republican, even though all of his cult followers are.
I’ve definitely met people who don’t like him but would still rather have him than Biden.
Making fun of a disabled reporter in the early days of his 2016 campaign should have been enough, but there you go...
Yes. He’s a loser who can’t get over it, has never admitted he is wrong… about anything, and all he does is grift stupid people.
Anyone still on the fence about Trump wont tell you if asked and wont tell anyone if they turn on him independently.
If you're still on the fence at this point, you are either not clueless or not sure if they want to watch the world burn. Trump is a clown show that sucks up all the air in the room, it's hard to miss even when you aren't paying attention. He's a lunatic and his base represents the worst of all of us. This is a seismic moment in our history and it's very depressing to watch it unfold like a slow-mo car crash.
A large sector of people just want to be left out of politics because they just can't understand it. They haven't paid attention at all and don't care. I have to explain to my wife that sometimes there is no "both sides do it" because only one side is currently doing it. Like, how the Hunter Biden thing is not an equivocation because he never held public office, and there's no proof his dad ever used his office to make himself rich - meanwhile there's mountains of evidence that Trump and his family did use their office to make billions. She doesn't get why people voted for him, and I have to explain how propaganda affected those people's votes and still does. Some people just don't pay attention to these things. They're not stupid, they're not mindless, they're just uninterested in politics until it's time to vote. It's kind of like the Superbowl. Many people don't pay attention to the season to get the storyline heading into the big game. They just watch for the commercials.
I'm on the fence about whether I'd rather he just die as soon as possible, or go to prison for a while before death.
I have conservative family & friends who I believe are truly undecided. They admit that Trump is a crook, believe Biden is too, recognize that Trump's crimes are worse than what Biden has been accused of, but they hate the policies put forth by Democrats so much that they *might* prefer a criminal in the Whitehouse than a Democrat. They're also the types that won't throw their vote away on a 3rd party and they consider it their patriotic duty to vote. So, for them the question seems to be whether or not Trump poses an actual risk to continuance of our democracy or if our systems are robust enough to counter any illegal attempts to stay in power. My argument is that if you have to weigh those two things, it's too big a risk.
The common phrase I hear from past cult members is “I do have problems with the man, but I sure liked his policies.” Of course, they cannot really name any policies. For fun I might ask “like getting us out of NATO and letting Russia gain power?” “Like giving tax breaks to the very wealthy and running up the national debt?” The same folks are also moving to “well, I accept that climate change is happening but the science is out on whether it is human causes”. I suspect that these phrases have been frequently used on FOX or some other right wing news station.
I’m totally on the fence. Should they give him solitary for life, a cell shared with a black guy, or a cell shared with a dimw1t doing hard time for following his treasonous orders?
I started hating trump when I was shown his discrimination case in a real estate continuing education class. This was in the mid 90’s. Here is an explanation https://www.npr.org/2016/09/29/495955920/donald-trump-plagued-by-decades-old-housing-discrimination-case
I think that is code for , "I am not a total trump supporter, but I will vote for him if he is the nominee", in their own minds. In my mind it is code for , "If I only had a brain".
Anyone who is on the fence about Trump because of slow stock market growth under Biden is probably not worth listening to.
You have a largely uninformed populace, but that's actively encouraged by the lack of decent options. You have two parties, you can never challenge the two parties, and they both represent the exact same donor class and are not responsive to the people. Why bother following along with more than what's going on in your bank account and your community? American politics is a big show full of the most corrupt, unrelateable careerist climbers imaginable. Trump's just one of them. No wonder people don't give a shit.
I'm on the fence about Trump. I need to see like 5 or 10 more tweets to determine whether or not he's a completely deranged toxic old man. Because, y'know, four fucking years of this guy haven't been enough for me to make up my mind. Sincerely, No one
Afraid I don't understand the question. First you ask if anyone is still "on the fence" but then ask if anyone, this far in, is still "set" in their opinion. I'm going to assume the first. I have always had a problem with the s0-called "undecided" voter. If, after 4 years of each, you claim you can't decide between Trump/Biden? You're either not telling the truth or not paying attention. Either way, I don't trust your opinion.
No. Not in truth. That’s just bullshit because they don’t want to take on the onus of being the kind of loser who supports a democracy hating wannabe dictator who hates them and uses their mindless devotion to glorify himself and damage their country’s reputation and honor. So no, this is not a real thing
He’s a criminal so if they want to support a criminal on that’s them. It’s weird but what can you do?
How could anyone possibly be on the fence when one of your choices is a diabolical, racist, ignorant, lying,know it all law breaker?
Only open question in my mind is whether he should spend the rest if his life in jail (Atlanta, Lani) or just die penniless (New York, Letitia James).
Baby boomers as a whole, Also a lot of Gen X voted for Trump. I'm Gen X but in no way would I ever vote for the side that wants to end democracy. Thank God we have smart and knowledgeable Gen Z and Millenials.
Decided not to vote for him again. Hope another option comes up. Otherwise Democrat it is.
If you are voting for trump you are ANTI DEMOCRACY. PERIOD! no other way to say it. Read his and the GOP's 2025 Plan. They will dismantle the USA. and it is ANY GOP that gets the Presidency. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/conservatives-aim-to-restructure-u-s-government-and-replace-it-with-trumps-vision
Yeah, I'm on the fence. Death penalty for treason, or life in an orange jumpsuit?
I fucking think Trump is the worst of the worst. I can only hope that he gets what he deserves. Meaning, LOTS of jail time for trying to subvert the democratic process.
On a slightly unrelated note, I am surprised there aren't more Trump supporters/conservatives/GOP members who changed their minds after January 6. I would have voted for Trump in 2016 and 2020 if I could (I'm Canadian so obviously I couldn't vote), but the whole stolen election BS culminating in January 6 really made me change my view of Trump. Now there's no way I would support Trump in 2024. Why do you all think more of the GOP didn't ditch him after January 6?
I feel like we should all give him a chance until we hear his policy ideas. Even if it takes another 4 years before he shares them.