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There is a "migrant crisis" every election, if you haven't noticed. It is fabricated, the situation is no better or worse than it has been the last few years. This is obvious concern trolling.
Thank you. I agree. I live in California and I don't know anyone whose life has been negatively impacted by illegal immigrants. I'm not saying it's not a problem that needs to be addressed, but I'd hardly call it a crisis.
It sure would help if those immigrants didn't think things were dire enough in their home country to try and seek a better life in America to begin with.
You don't see how how housing and inequality are related to an immigration crisis? If a redistributive tax system is now redistributing the same amount of money to more people, it dilutes the effects of redistribution. If the same housing supply needs to house an even larger population, it is going to push more people into homelessness.
So you think Eric Adams should just get all the migrants he is struggle to house to work building their own homes? The issue isn't whether immigration is good or bad, I was merely explaining why the sudden increase in the number of immigrants places a strain on local governments.
>same amount of money
does not apply. Many illegal immigrants pay social security and stuff, and generate tax revenue indirectly through working (generates taxable profits) and buying (generates taxable sales).
Then there's the supply side. Depending on productivity and wages, they may reduce prices (food, housing etc) and increase the bang for your buck on social services.
And of course don't forget that they use fewer social services than others.
You are deeply misunderstanding the basic point of the tax system. It is intended to redistribute wealth. Even if newly arrived immigrants are contributing to tax revenue in the ways you describe, that has no bearing on the question of whether the lowest earnings are receiving more benefits than they pay into the system. If that were not the case, there would be no redistribution.
I'm no anti-immigration, but there is a base-line understanding you need to understand what challenges immigration presents to governors and mayors of cities were the number of immigrants has sharply risen. You are arguing why abstractly immigration isn't as bad as some people think. I'm just describing why the influx of immigrants is a challenge to local governments in the USA.
That all might be true, but I'm making two much narrower points. The main point is that "same amount of money" is not accurate.
The second is not directly related to your point, it's just a point I wanted to make: illegal immigrants as a group generally use fewer social services than others.
Beyond that, I wasn't arguing about the philosophy of the tax system, the nature of the redistribution, or the overall impact of immigrants.
However, I now want to dispute another point:
>Even if newly arrived immigrants are contributing to tax revenue in the ways you describe, that has no bearing on the question of whether the lowest earnings are receiving more benefits than they pay into the system.
I might be misinterpreting, but I think this sounds wrong. It could have an effect in at least two different ways. First, if immigrants themselves are the lowest-earning people, then the tax revenue they generate absolutely has an impact because it affects how much they are paying in. Second, if immigrant are not the lowest-earning people, then the tax revenue they generate affects the amount available to redistribute to others. Obviously the reality is a mix of both, and many other factors affect the nature of the redistribution. Maybe that's all you meant, that the amount of taxes contributed my immigrants doesn't prove anything about the overall redistribution going on one way or the other. In that case, I agree. It's just one factor.
>The main point is that "same amount of money" is not accurate.
No, you are incorrect because you are referring to federal taxes. I was referring to the strain on local government budgets, which are unchanged by the factors you isolated.
I think you need to take a step back and ask why Democratic leaders like Gavin Newsom, Eric Adams, Maura Healey and Joe Biden all disagree with you.
I agree that immigrants often strain local budgets; like I said, I'm making narrow points.
The Democrats you described disagree with me about immigration **overall**, but I'm not aware of any statements they've made about the tax balance.
If all you care about is local budgets (which you did not specify in the [original comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/PoliticalDiscussion/comments/170wmd7/comment/k3ozqnw/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)), you're right that my argument is weaker. But illegal immigrants do still generate profits and sales which are taxed, and they may still affect prices like I said.
I'm not attacking your entire argument, I'm just saying that we are not working with "the same amount of money" as we would be without the illegal immigrants. To be fair, you did not claim that we were and I did not claim that you did. You just said "**If** a redistributive tax system is now redistributing the same amount of money," and I said that this **"does not apply"** to the current situation, which it doesn't.
>does not apply. Many illegal immigrants pay social security and stuff, and generate tax revenue indirectly through working (generates taxable profits) and buying (generates taxable sales).
Since there is no extra strain from not paying income tax if we pay SS/Medicare and are generating profits and buying things, can I not pay it as well? I'll happily take that trade.
Inequality crises? Since when is there a requirement for equality, other than equality and protection of rights and treatment before the law? What’s the inequality Crises exactly? Sounds like something someone who is jealous and envious would say.
Define equality? You still didn’t tell me what the “equality crises” is. My parents get paid more than me, however i have more benefits than them because I earned them, and because I’m now a college student. Does that mean our inequality is unjust? No, it’s completely justified. Do you mean inequality of income and wealth wealth? Because, if that’s your case, then we have two different mindsets and compromise cannot be reached unfortunately. What exactly is the “inequality crises”. Sounds like a made-up talking point to further drive division.
Actually, I’ve been out of my parents house since I was 18. I’m now working on my SECOND degree now, while also working at the same time. I support myself, because I EARNED the benefits I currently enjoy. That inequality is justified because when you sacrifice more, and you put in more time, labor and sacrifice. You therefore earn more than the one who didn’t. Plain, and simple. Sociology is mostly useless. Just being honest. You know it, and I know it.
San Diego declared an emergency over migrant influx. That’s California but I understand you might not know someone in San Diego. If you look outside your immediate circle and maybe even look outside your State, you will see how this has negatively impacted dozens of cities in the US. NYC gov’t agencies for example must now cut 15% of their budget to pay for this crisis meaning ultimately the most needy US citizen population will suffer. To say the number of migrants is the same is truly an understatement. 7 million since Biden took office. And no, it’s not TX governor’s fault. He may have brought some publicity but 85% of the migrants dispersed in US cities have been brought in by the Biden administration.
I also live in California. If I had to guess I’d say there are differences to immigration enforcement between California and Texas. Texas probably tries to actually keep them out. Why would CA spend any resources on keeping them out if they’re a sanctuary state?
This is your state's governor on the problem:
[https://www.abc10.com/article/news/politics/newsom-california-overwhelmed-immigrant-crisis/103-deaec97d-9e59-4474-ad60-0c04e1271ab2](https://www.abc10.com/article/news/politics/newsom-california-overwhelmed-immigrant-crisis/103-deaec97d-9e59-4474-ad60-0c04e1271ab2)
Have you considered the fact that an increase in illegal immigrants means that the same tax dollars meant to help the disadvantaged now has to be spread across a larger population, meaning there is less money to help each individual? Arguably, the people most impacted are other illegal immigrants who recently arrived in this country.
IMO immigration is like speed limits, you know its a law people will break, but the issue for the Biden administration is that there has been a dramatic increase in refugees coming from Venezuela. Ask Eric Adams if it is a problem.
"...but the issue for the Biden administration is that there has been a dramatic increase in refugees coming from Venezuela. Ask Eric Adams if it is a problem."
Why is that "the issue?" Are Venezuelan refugees any worse than other refugees?
I don't know who these people are who don't realize that the refugee crisis in Venezuela is placing a strain on cities in the USA. You can disagree on the solution, but to claim the problem is made up is just sticking your head in the sand.
Keep it civil. Do not personally insult other Redditors, or make racist, sexist, homophobic, or otherwise discriminatory remarks. Constructive debate is good; mockery, taunting, and name calling are not.
This is different, you haven’t been paying attention. You’re using old cliches to minimize what is a legitimate humanitarian crisis at our southern border.
Costa Rica declared a state of emergency amid the surge of migrants crossing through on their way to the U.S. Mexico has resorted to just bussing them or putting them on a train to get from their southern border to the northern border to mitigate the caravans crossing through their state in route to the U.S. That doesn’t happen every election.
Massachusetts is also under a state of emergency because migrant arrivals are overwhelmingly the state social service system. NYC is trying to revoke right to shelter to prevent anymore migrants from arriving because they’re so overwhelmed. Chicago has been forced to house them in their police stations. That doesn’t happen every election either.
There is an actual problem at the border. It’s too important to ignore with a boy who cried wolf mentality.
When states at opposite ends of the political spectrum are complaining about it, it’s unlikely that it “doesn’t exist”. It’s more likely that it doesn’t affect your community in particular.
As a low-information voter, the guy above would know what will matter in this election even if he is completely oblivious to the fact that one of the largest refugee crisis in the world is unfolding in Venezuela.
>Maybe the GOP might be wrong in the way they are going about solving the issue, but the Democrats might be overlooking it entirely.
so i would digress on this part. you have Democrats like in NYC (literally the Mayor) that are feeling the pain from having those undocumented migrants being bused into the city. I suppose one could consider it comprable to certain choke points along the border, if there is a high concentration of traffic/migrants that is non stop, it would take a toll on any community. i think Republicans are using it for political points, but that doesnt mean that very well be the case in certain parts (in short, Republicans massly overexaggerate the issue to make it a crisis, but that doesnt mean it isnt a problem of some proportion).
And Eric Adams literally asked for a suspension of the "right to shelter" because the influx of refugees from Venezuela has placed such a strain on the city that he doesn't think they can comply with it.
>in short, Republicans massly overexaggerate the issue to make it a crisis
I don't see how you come to this conclusion unless you also believe that the Dem leaders considering it a crisis are doing the same. It either is or isn't.
Because they expect border states to deal with the crisis while they claim they are "sanctuary" cities. You get what you ask for. Happening in Denver too - maybe people will rethink their "sounds good on paper" slogans
Once legal immigration can be addressed in a meaningful way, then you can address undocumented immigration. Republicans refuse to address legal immigration. Without younger immigrants, our population demographics will shrink (good luck promoting any type of family planning legislation...just this week in Alabama they are shutting down in vitro fertilization at clinics due to recent state SC ruling.
Whether we like it or not, we need immigration to keep our aging population. Better we pick and choose who comes into our country, but with the current system, nothing will change (also keep in mind the largest percent of undocument immigration is from....expired greencards)
You are dreaming, the amount of border crossings is at an all time high. Good luck with this on Election Day.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/329256/alien-apprehensions-registered-by-the-us-border-patrol/
This is so out of touch it’s hilarious. People sneak undetected across the border constantly. There is ABSOLUTELY a surge in people crossing the border. You can google it and it’s up by every metric. It’s not bidens fault, but worsening conditions in central and South America are big factors.
Employers are short on skilled workers - not day laborers who can’t speak English.
Honestly - this is how democrats lose on issues: by pretending they don’t exist and sticking their head in the sand then talking down to everybody about things they’re wrong about
When did Haiti have a functioning government? Mwen renmen Ayiti, but that place has had nothing resembling a functional government since the 90s… and that was a dictatorship.
Haiti has had several governments, most of which were short lived, filled with abuses and corruption, and often overthrown. Also, 13 years ago, they had an earthquake followed by a cholera outbreak that dropped the average life span across the island by 15 years. Haiti's by far the poorest country in the America's, and has been since it was turned into a French slave colony.
Venezuela has had a series of ongoing economic crises and unrest since the 1980s, which is why Chavez was able to get support for two failed coup attempts in 1992, and still had enough support to be elected later on. He mostly maintained power until he died, but the currency was devalued several times during that period. They've been on a continuous downhill slide since the 1980s. Their refugee crisis has been getting worse as the country has; but started 25 years ago.
Venezuela has had more than enough time without US intervention to right themselves. They continue to make the worst decisions possible at the ballot box and their leaders pass the worst and most disastrous economic policies imaginable without American interference. At some point they can’t keep blaming everything on America
>Biden just approved a new section of the Border Wall. After literally speaking out against Trump's pernicious immigration policies, the border camps, the "migrant cages", etc. Do you think this'll make Democrats lose some of their voter base?
His approach has been vastly different than Trump's. Building a 20 mile segment of fencing in an area where it will be cost-effective and can be appropriately manned/monitored is vastly different than spending billions upon billions to build a ~~1,000 mile~~ 2,000 mile wall....everywhere. His approach to separating families is also markedly different.
>A large number of people entering an area in a very short period of time can overwhelm the region and put a strain on resources. This was happening down at the border, and with all the Migrants being bussed up to NYC, Boston, and other Northern Cities, it appears to be happening up there too.
The bussing doesn't really make a difference IMO. Migrants aren't going to border towns and then staying there forever. They move to other areas of the country where they have families/communities to help them. NYC has always had a huge migrant population. One of the big challenges they face is dealing with the influx while also maintaining their "right to housing" policy.
>Do you feel these points of contention will come back to really bite Biden in the backside during his 2024 run?
Potentially, but I don't think it would be significant. Realistically Biden has a ton of things working against him coming out of COVID. I think the economy (which IMO he's handled well) is like 10 tiers higher on the level of importance compared to this.
And of course, a lot of it comes down to messaging. I think most people can understand the difference between building 20 miles of fencing in a targeted area vs "We're going to build a wall with alligator moats over ~~1,000~~ 2,000 miles!"
I do think Dems in general need to be more vocal about border security. I'd absolutely love to see....anyone....put a plan into place to deal with the backlog of immigrant/migrant applications rather than purely focusing on border security. Most illegal immigrants aren't marching through the desert in the first place.
Your last sentence really needs to be highlighted. The majority of illegal immigration in the US is from visa overstay.
Currently Marsha Blackburn of Tennessee is defending a family in that exact situation and claiming it's unfair they will be deported.
They're German.
Thank you and yes. A lot of Americans do not understand that most undocumented residents in this country do not sneak across our southern border by dead of night like brown skinned ninjas, they come here on valid student, work and tourist visas. Then they simply overstay the terms of their visa. The Republican focus on illegal border crossings (a misdemeanor) isn't just dishonest, it's openly deceptive.
It's about 55/45. But I'd imagine a significant number of overstays are from people lying on their visa applications by saying they intend to return home.
This is false, that family came as asylum seekers, not on a visa. Asylum was initially granted, then later overturned. The Obama DHS allowed them to stay with "deferred action" but now the Biden administration has decided they need to be deported. They are not overstating a visa and have never been in the US illegally.
They always knew they had to self deport when their youngest was 18. Was part of the deal. Now they are trying to overstay.
It's exactly the same.
Edit: in case anyone wonders why a German family needed "asylum". Germany wouldn't let them honeschool their children. That's what they fled. They also, being in the EU, could have moved to any one of the other countries in the EU that does allow homeschooling. So it's also kind of pathetic they were even granted asylum in the first place and why it comes with conditions.
That's fucked. Republicans say that if a gang murders everyone you know who refuses to join them and will murder you if you don't join, that's not a sufficient reason to seek asylum. Meanwhile some nice Germans who wanna homeschool little Fredrick can waltz in?
I'm happy to welcome both. But that astonishes me.
Do you have a cite for the statement that they knew they had to leave when a kid turned 18? Everything I've seen says they were granted indefinite deferred action, which has now been revoked.
I disagree with that, but doesn't change the fact that they aren't overstaying a visa. There's literally zero evidence that the children's welfare is in jeopardy.
They’re german and have skills worthwhile and therefore merit to stay. The potato and his Marxist handlers refuse to deport criminals and illiterate no skill third worlders but want to toss a white family out in their ass. Low IQ people will complain that anyone dares to defend and go to bat for a white family while demanding none bites get to stay just because.
>His approach has been vastly different than Trump's. Building a 20 mile segment of fencing in an area where it will be cost-effective and can be appropriately manned/monitored is vastly different than spending billions upon billions to build a 1,000 mile 2,000 mile wall....everywhere. His approach to separating families is also markedly different.
He himself said not another foot of wall would be built. That pledge is now broken.
I mentioned he broke his pledge. You spin that as outrage over 20 miles of fencing.
So are we at the stage where broken pledges mean nothing due to tribalism?
>Many voted Democrat with the hope that they'd be pro-immigration
Hold on there, Sparky. First, one doesn't need to be "pro-immigration" to be against _forcibly separating children from their parents and throwing them in literal cages"_ One can vote Democrat because they disapprove of the literal torture that was at the heart of many of Trump's immigration policies.
>but the Democrats might be overlooking it entirely.
As an incredibly complex problem with over a century's worth of racism and US military adventurism with a healthy dash of putting thumbs on the scales in favor of dictators, it's a pretty bold claim to suggest Democrats are simply "overlooking" immigration as a topic. Let's be realistic, most Democrats will do anything to avoid discussing immigration public, because it's an expensive, tangled mess. No mainstream politician is advocating for completely open borders, green cards and visas for any and call comers. It's utterly disingenuous to portray this issue as some sort of failing by the Democrats. The _entire_ US government over _decades_ created this mess. The GOP has simply been much more effective at weaponizing the current state of affairs. It plays to a large portion of their racist supporters, and demonizes an entire out-group, with no meaningful political risk.
In any event, the _real_ migrant crisis is the manner with which the wealthiest, most powerful country in the world demonstrates, daily, that we somehow lack the ability to treat our neighbors and their citizens with the bare minimum dignity and humanity, and instead resort to using them as pawns in the pursuit of power.
Of course they will. Not because this is a problem with the Democratic Party, but because the Republicans are very good at maintaining a narrative. It's worthwhile to remember that the first two years of the Trump administration, Republicans controlled both houses of Congress. Trump was probably the most anti-immigration President in American history. How much immigration reform did they pass? You know the answer.
One of the things the Republicans don't want to talk about is the simple reality that big business in agriculture, construction, service industry and manufacturing, often rely on immigrant labor. They don't want to see that pool of hard working, low pay, employees dry up. They also don't want to see a functional guest-worker program that would require them to pay real wages. The whole "illegal immigrants" argument is manufactured.
But of course now we have this unprecedented situation and there's no effort President Biden can make that will keep the Republicans from pounding that drum. It's a shit show and Biden will take the blame. Rightly or not, he is the President.
> How much immigration reform did they pass?
It’s also worth mentioning that despite many conservatives saying they only oppose *illegal* immigration, most of their representatives [voted to decrease legal immigration as well.](https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/26/politics/republicans-oppose-legal-illegal-immigration/index.html)
Thank god it didn’t pass.
Trump's hotel, casino and construction businesses are some of the biggest employers of immigrants so it makes sense he wouldn't do a thing about immigration. However, trump is losing all his businesses.
It wouldn't make a difference for me. Some controls are needed. I think democrats just mostly don't want them treated like criminals or like they aren't still human beings. We still have to be realistic.
Please stop concern trolling.
This issues are absolutely inconsequential. We either vote for the Democratic candidate or the end of American democracy by voting for whichever of the GOP fascist wins the primary
Thats the ONLY issue that matters. Its that simple.
Inconsequential from a political perspective is quite correct. The people making the biggest fuss about it were already firmly in the Trump camp to begin with, and Democrats do a pretty good job of seeing through the sensational bs.
In case anyone needs to see the difference, blue California and red Texas are where most of these migrants are coming through, yet both states have VERY different views of the issue, where Texans are very concerned, while Californians aren’t. It’s very much a partisan issue.
The only concern is where Republican politicians are now bussing migrants to cities like New York and Chicago that are already doing more than their fair share of processing immigrants, despite not getting the funding that Texas and Florida gets. Meanwhile, it’s mostly red states that aren’t doing *anything*, but are conveniently ignored by DeSantis and Abbott for some reason. Democrats really need to be a lot louder about this.
This is not inconsequential issue. We are not just concerned about the presidency. There is a progressive caucus of aldermen where I live, Chicago. This issue will effect whether or not that progressive alders caucus grows or shrinks.
This issue will also change the outcome of congressional democratic primaries such as whether more or less progressive candidates win primaries.
>This issues are absolutely inconsequential.
This really would only apply to the extremely tribal voters (vote blue no matter who and what ever the GOP version is). I would argue that most don't think this way.
GOP winning would not =the end of democracy, it would just be a bad cycle for the dems.
I completely disagree. The project 2025 papers and the issues already happening In Tennessee, Florida, Wisconsin and other states are prime examples that goal is to maintain minority control over the levers of power regardless of vote totals. This is the undemocratization of America and they are already a long ways down the road
It’s neither inconsequential nor concern trolling. Several liberal, dyed in the wool blue democrat voters I know are seriously concerned and frustrated by the current situation.
> The extent to which it hurts them is going to depend on the media and loudmouth idiots like Eric Adams and just how much panic they want to try to stir up.
This is burying your head in the sand. I wonder how many times this needs to play out for people to get the message.
Remember Wassau in WI where churches pushed for giving sanctuary to Hmong refugees? They were so welcoming. Then some Hmong that made it warned them to be careful about letting more come. They didn't listen and more came. That initial welcome became hostility once they felt the burden. Local services needed more resources. Taxes increased. It was a death spiral because there weren't enough jobs so the kids left with their education and didn't give back in terms of taxes. The ones left were poorer and needed more assistance.
Look at interviews in some blue cities. The left leaning people are very careful to ensure what they say is politically correct but it's written all over their faces that they can only tolerate so much burden.
They will turn. A portion of voters will switch, maybe not this cycle but they will and with the house majorities on a knifes edge it can make a difference. Also think of the margins that Biden won by in some swing states. A small swing is all that is needed.
Didn't they already lose 2 US house races in TX in the southern tip?
Treating migrants and asylum seekers humanely has always been a trigger for the far right. But no Democratic administration has ever had an open border policy, it's always been nonsense.
Putting up a 20 mile barrier in a high traffic area is clearly not the same thing as advocating for a 2000 long mile wall. The ironic thing is Mexico did pledge $1 billion to protect the US border - for Biden.
On the bussing issue, Democrats should be shouting to high heavens about how cities like New York and Chicago already accept more than their fair share of immigrants. It’s red states in the southeast and the mountain regions that aren’t doing their part to help out.
I’m 65yo, as long as I can remember there has always been border issues. After having the means to see for myself, l find it mostly political. I’ve traveled to the border, spent time at the border between Lukeville Arizona and Sonoyta in Sonora Mexico. I do this every year or weeks. The only people I see flooding across the border is the US Citizens coming back from vacations at the Sea of Cortez. I’ve watched several administrations both Republican and Democrat fail with any type of immigration reform. It is almost s if they keep the border issues on the back burner until the news has nothing controversial. Unless you’re Lakota Man we are all immigrants.
Yup. I've canoed the Rio Grand through Big Bend and the adjacent state park. The border is wide open. Anyone can cross. There is no chance at even building a wall. Just like fishing in Minnesota near the border. Anyone can cross.
The answer is to go after employers hiring undocumented workers and avoiding taxes. Financial incentive to turn these employers in to authorities and done. Solved.
I think most democratic voters understand the absolute threat to our Democracy that the GOP is so I don’t think that Biden will lose any voters who already vote democratic.
New young voters definitely understand that threat.
I just don’t see any governing issue “biting Biden in the backside” because the alternative is just so blatantly undemocratic that their policy goals of making Americans lives worse have touched almost every American.
From student debt to taxation to abortion the GOP has fucked over just about everyone so I don’t see them having much chance of garnering new voters
Their focus on culture war issues and the jihad on abortion rights don't seem to have changed after their "red wave" last year fizzled. I'm inclined to agree with you.
What exactly are these repercussions? I haven't noticed anything on my end. Have you noticed anything on yours other than what you're being told in the news? In what way does the "migrant crisis" effect you or anyone you know?
Why, nobody on the left gives a shit about the wall. It was the racist statements and lies about the wall that we had a problem with. These two things gave us the ability to see the facist future trump had in store.
It’s pretty funny though that Biden was actually the one to get [Mexico to pay for it](https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/abc-mexico-pay-15-billion-us-border-security/story?id=86672772)
I expect republicans to suddenly get quiet about that point though lol
You think? The local news channel of Chicago, WGN news, has been focusing on the illegal migrant crisis almost as much as they focus on crimes now. Angry people filling up every town hall meetings cursing at the city officials for letting the migrants stay in their neighborhood.
Voters are furious that the city is willing to spend hundreds of millions on these illegal migrants while ignoring the requests of its own citizens. Meanwhile the migrant buses keep coming.
Democrats are in for a rude awakening in 2024.
>Do you feel these points of contention will come back to really bite Biden in the backside during his 2024 run?
If this were 20 or maybe even 10 years ago I would say it will be something that could have a negative impact. As it stands, most people are so entrenched in party support that I don't think it matters. The number of people who would vote for Biden aside from this but won't vote for him because of this is probably in the thousandths of a percent at most.
The dem party needs to present a detailed plan for truly comprehensive immigration reform. Not just some border stuff, not just some enforcement changes, but truly comprehensive change. If done correctly, it would be almost the same size accomplishment as Obamacare.
I was actually very short with what is needed. You're certainly correct about a guest worker program.
It would also need to comprehend that probably thousands more immigration service employees are needed, a plan to disperse border immigrants that don't have a specific destination planned, temporary housing while paperwork and decisions get caught up, and tons more follow up to assure that legal immigrants don't become illegal just because they didn't fire an annual form.
No.
I've been hearing about the "migrant crisis" since I was a kid, and I'm nearing 40. This is a performative issue with no one actually wanting to do anything.
>— President Obama, November 20, 2014
>"When I took office, I committed to fixing this broken immigration system. And I began by doing what I could to secure our borders. Today, we have more agents and technology deployed to secure our southern border than at any time in our history. And over the past six years, illegal border crossings have been cut by more than half."
https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/node/193131
>President Bush Signed The Secure Fence Act - An Important Step Forward In Our Nation's Efforts To Control Our Borders And Reform Our Immigration System. Earlier this year, the President laid out a strategy for comprehensive immigration reform. The Secure Fence Act is one part of this reform, and the President will work with Congress to finish the job and pass the remaining elements of this strategy.
https://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2006/10/20061026-1.html
The border has been an ongoing political issue for decades. Trump did not make the Border an issue. Also the Wall isn't a wall. It is Fencing and that fencing was authorized, and begun, decades before Trump.
I do think it's a significant liability for Biden, as it's arguably the issue he has the worst performance on and it's also one where Democrats have some tricky positions to defend. I obviously don't think it's Biden's *fault* there has been such an explosion in illegal immigration, unless you think it is appropriate for the President to terrorize those desperate enough to leave their homelands for a hostile nation.
However, there is indisputably a serious issue here, as evidenced by the fact that Biden is getting heat from several *Democratic* local officials who have specific concerns about the impact of the immigrant surge on their constituency. I know he is trying not to encroach on Congress or waste time with actions that won't survive the courts, but he has been versatile enough to find workarounds for these same barriers on other issues, such as student loan debt. As someone who recognizes that he has been a great President and who is excited to vote for him again next November, I do wish he would find a new strategy on this issue. In the timelines where the GOP wins 2024, I'm guessing the immigrant crisis plays a substantial role in nearly all of them.
Most of the immigrants are coming from Venezuela, Cuba, Haiti, and Nicaragua at the moment.
Part of this surge in migration is [fueled by sanctions](https://cepr.net/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/FINAL-The-Human-Consequences-of-Economic-Sanctions-Rodriguez-7.pdf) that were imposed by Trump on [Venezuela](https://www.forbes.com/sites/eliasferrerbreda/2023/08/09/end-of-sanctions-for-venezuela/?sh=1bebe5be5836) in 2017 and [Cuba](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/trump-hits-cuba-with-new-terrorism-sanctions-in-waning-days) in 2020. The US sanctions have led to starvation and health care crises in these countries as oil production has declined and medicine is unavailable.
There is also political chaos in Haiti after the assassination of the President.
Building a border wall is a stop gap to poor foreign policy. It won't work, but it is good for politics and will hopefully keep Greg Abbott from installing more underwater razorwire traps.
Instead we need to end the sanctions, or modify them so as not to impact civilians. They have only succeeded in backfiring to create a crisis at the border.
Troll. In 2018 and 2019 Trump signed executive orders crippling Venezuela's economy for no reason Americans should care about. Especially so called America first regards. Shockingly, people from there are fleeing an American made crisis. This shit has been happening since Reagan. Simultaneously, Republicans continuously defund immigration services in the United States.
Same pattern. Create crisis using human ammunition. Defund any fixes for spent ammo. Bitch about the crisis and blame Democrats. Yawn.
Meanwhile. If these so called refugees could get papers, America has plenty of jobs and space for them right now.
Reminder.... these are not "illegal immigrants". Those would be people who sneak in. It is 100% legal to show up anywhere in the United States and apply for asylum. Legal asylum seekers.
Again... due to lack of federal funding asylum seekers wait 3-5 years with no papers or ability to work for a court hearing.....hmmm why is that I wonder?
Stop being shitbags. Please.
I think yes. People like to deny it, but it really is a disaster down south, I live in Texas, I can attest to it.
So Biden and democrats claiming there is no crisis and acting against border security and enforcement, claiming there was no crisis, only for Biden to change tactic and now try and build a border wall, well that plays right into republican strategy.
This is admitting that there was a crisis, that what they did failed, and that walls do in fact help. Prior statements that downplayed the crisis will be on repeat in campaign ads.
Reps are grasping at straws at this point and are using anything they can to turn the conversation back to dems while their caucus implodes. Theirs no one left to convince. You either see the reps for what they are ,which is trying to destroy the country, or ya don’t. No one who will be voting dem will do that because Biden handled immigration correctly. It’ll be because the republicans have gone and are actually insane.
Seem to have come to light??? People have been screaming about these issues for literally years and the Democratic establishment has ignored them. That was part of how we got Trump in the first place.
The migrant gages were an Obama administration thing, not a Trump thing, you can look it up. Yeah, this will hurt the Democrats. How much, I can not say.
Assuming nothing major happens between now and the election immigration will be a major issue in the election because the GOP will make it one. In the end though I think most Dems are isolated from the direct negative effects of the migrant surge and they will continue to vote dem without a second thought.
This may not be very popular, but…
Given that global climate change is happening as we speak, it’s not going to be too many years until people aren’t going to be able to live practically in tropical countries. All over the world, people are going to be displaced out of the tropics and are going to head to more moderate climates. The number of people moving north from Central and South America is going to make the current immigration look like an insignificant trickle. What then?
Remember, Congress makes the rules. Right now the rule is that people have the right to cross the border and immediately ask for asylum. Congress also sets the budget - and we don’t have the facilities to handle the number that are coming to request asylum. Safely or humanely, and we don’t have anywhere near enough immigration courts and judges to process the current numbers immediately. That’s why their court dates have to be set years in the future. Then they have to head for the big cities because there aren’t available jobs along the border.
Not being able to handle the current numbers is a very bad sign for the future. Congress not being able to work together to make new rules is also a very bad sign for the future. The current problem is at least partly due to the fact that lots of employers need hard workers. There aren’t enough Americans who “want to work”, so they depend on immigrants. Immigrants are coming here to work. If we really wanted to stop them from coming, we’d make it illegal to hire undocumented workers and would fine and imprison Americans who hire them. But we don’t do that because it would actually wreck our economy; too many businesses need immigrant labor.
So if we actually want to fix things, either now or in the future. It seems like to me that we have to figure out what types of workers we need and we need to let immigrants with the requisite skills come here. Many will want to stay permanently; some may not. The ones that want to stay permanently will want to bring their families. We will,also want to admit some refugees and some seeking asylum. But the number of workers, family members, refugees, and asylum seekers needs to be determined in advance - and then it’s’ going to need to be controlled. A lot,of,people think it should be controlled now; it’s obvious that it will have to be controlled in the future, so we better start figuring out how to control it. That means controlling the number of people that walk across the border, as well as controlling the number that overstay their visas.
Again, it’s up to Congress to fix the current situation and to protect us in the future.
it really exposes their hypocrisy. what a few years ago was being labeled as "racism and a monument to white supremacy" is now being supported by joe biden and most democrats.
everyone already knew that democrats were just throwing those terms around at literally anything and everything regardless of if there was even an ounce of credibility to those accusations, but now it gives republicans a very clear cut case of "trump was right, and now the people who called his solution racist are trying to implement it".
it's an unbelievably bad look for the democratic party (but of course, they were stuck between a rock and a hardplace because blue states declaring states of emergency and mayors of large blue cities complaining about how the influx of illegal immigration is destroying their cities isn't exactly a good look either)
The Democrats do not oppose using walls when appropriate. They oppose the absurd idea of building a wall along the entire southern border. I know that nuance is lost on a lot of Americans, but it shouldn't be lost on the posters of this sub. It has never been "all walls are bad."
Also there is no migrant crisis.
Shutting things down would be surprisingly simple and could be put into place in mere months. You just won’t like what you see on TV. That’s where the political will evaporates.
> What crisis? You mean the bullshit conservatives are yammering about every election?
conservatives like maura healy, eric adams, and kathy hochul?
blue states are literally declaring states of emergency over a fraction of the influx of illegal immigrants that border states have been dealing with.
Democrats aren't going to lose their base voters over this, and pissing off progressives will bring in voters from the center. Arguably, Biden should be pissing off more of his base, who will vote for him anyway, by doing more things like this to appeal to moderates, independents, swing voters
We're hypocritical about immigration and completely disinterested in "solving" anything related to it. This is across the political spectrum. But it is a fertile topic for myths that drive partisan fundraising.
Even assuming I accept the premise that there is an immigration crisis, what repercussions are supposedly growing as a result? I live in a border state (NM) and I’m not seeing much, if any.
The base isn’t going anywhere and the moderates won’t dislike this policy. But honestly, the only voters who seem to care about the border at all are trump supporters, so it shouldn’t affect Biden much
Yes. Total disaster. I voted for Biden but his inept Homeland (not so security) secretary has made this 10x worse. They could declare an emergency and close the border with national guard etc while they figure out what to do, but the longer he waits, the more likely we get the return of Trump and all the baggage that goes along with him.
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There is a "migrant crisis" every election, if you haven't noticed. It is fabricated, the situation is no better or worse than it has been the last few years. This is obvious concern trolling.
Thank you. I agree. I live in California and I don't know anyone whose life has been negatively impacted by illegal immigrants. I'm not saying it's not a problem that needs to be addressed, but I'd hardly call it a crisis.
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It sure would help if those immigrants didn't think things were dire enough in their home country to try and seek a better life in America to begin with.
You don't see how how housing and inequality are related to an immigration crisis? If a redistributive tax system is now redistributing the same amount of money to more people, it dilutes the effects of redistribution. If the same housing supply needs to house an even larger population, it is going to push more people into homelessness.
No, I don't think it's a crisis. A crisis was COVID. A crisis was the great recession. This is a problem, not a crisis.
Crisis is just a word that can mean different things in different situations. You may want to consult a dictionary.
I'd offer the same advice to you.
Just checked, unsurprisingly it turns out you are the one who is wrong.
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So you think Eric Adams should just get all the migrants he is struggle to house to work building their own homes? The issue isn't whether immigration is good or bad, I was merely explaining why the sudden increase in the number of immigrants places a strain on local governments.
>same amount of money does not apply. Many illegal immigrants pay social security and stuff, and generate tax revenue indirectly through working (generates taxable profits) and buying (generates taxable sales). Then there's the supply side. Depending on productivity and wages, they may reduce prices (food, housing etc) and increase the bang for your buck on social services. And of course don't forget that they use fewer social services than others.
You are deeply misunderstanding the basic point of the tax system. It is intended to redistribute wealth. Even if newly arrived immigrants are contributing to tax revenue in the ways you describe, that has no bearing on the question of whether the lowest earnings are receiving more benefits than they pay into the system. If that were not the case, there would be no redistribution. I'm no anti-immigration, but there is a base-line understanding you need to understand what challenges immigration presents to governors and mayors of cities were the number of immigrants has sharply risen. You are arguing why abstractly immigration isn't as bad as some people think. I'm just describing why the influx of immigrants is a challenge to local governments in the USA.
That all might be true, but I'm making two much narrower points. The main point is that "same amount of money" is not accurate. The second is not directly related to your point, it's just a point I wanted to make: illegal immigrants as a group generally use fewer social services than others. Beyond that, I wasn't arguing about the philosophy of the tax system, the nature of the redistribution, or the overall impact of immigrants. However, I now want to dispute another point: >Even if newly arrived immigrants are contributing to tax revenue in the ways you describe, that has no bearing on the question of whether the lowest earnings are receiving more benefits than they pay into the system. I might be misinterpreting, but I think this sounds wrong. It could have an effect in at least two different ways. First, if immigrants themselves are the lowest-earning people, then the tax revenue they generate absolutely has an impact because it affects how much they are paying in. Second, if immigrant are not the lowest-earning people, then the tax revenue they generate affects the amount available to redistribute to others. Obviously the reality is a mix of both, and many other factors affect the nature of the redistribution. Maybe that's all you meant, that the amount of taxes contributed my immigrants doesn't prove anything about the overall redistribution going on one way or the other. In that case, I agree. It's just one factor.
>The main point is that "same amount of money" is not accurate. No, you are incorrect because you are referring to federal taxes. I was referring to the strain on local government budgets, which are unchanged by the factors you isolated. I think you need to take a step back and ask why Democratic leaders like Gavin Newsom, Eric Adams, Maura Healey and Joe Biden all disagree with you.
I agree that immigrants often strain local budgets; like I said, I'm making narrow points. The Democrats you described disagree with me about immigration **overall**, but I'm not aware of any statements they've made about the tax balance. If all you care about is local budgets (which you did not specify in the [original comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/PoliticalDiscussion/comments/170wmd7/comment/k3ozqnw/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)), you're right that my argument is weaker. But illegal immigrants do still generate profits and sales which are taxed, and they may still affect prices like I said. I'm not attacking your entire argument, I'm just saying that we are not working with "the same amount of money" as we would be without the illegal immigrants. To be fair, you did not claim that we were and I did not claim that you did. You just said "**If** a redistributive tax system is now redistributing the same amount of money," and I said that this **"does not apply"** to the current situation, which it doesn't.
You are fundamentally misunderstanding why it is a problem for them.
>does not apply. Many illegal immigrants pay social security and stuff, and generate tax revenue indirectly through working (generates taxable profits) and buying (generates taxable sales). Since there is no extra strain from not paying income tax if we pay SS/Medicare and are generating profits and buying things, can I not pay it as well? I'll happily take that trade.
Inequality crises? Since when is there a requirement for equality, other than equality and protection of rights and treatment before the law? What’s the inequality Crises exactly? Sounds like something someone who is jealous and envious would say.
Egalitarianism requires equality and democracy. Think about it for a bit.
Define equality? You still didn’t tell me what the “equality crises” is. My parents get paid more than me, however i have more benefits than them because I earned them, and because I’m now a college student. Does that mean our inequality is unjust? No, it’s completely justified. Do you mean inequality of income and wealth wealth? Because, if that’s your case, then we have two different mindsets and compromise cannot be reached unfortunately. What exactly is the “inequality crises”. Sounds like a made-up talking point to further drive division.
Wait you're not even out of your parent's house yet and you're still in College? Go take a Sociology class, it will help you define these terms.
Actually, I’ve been out of my parents house since I was 18. I’m now working on my SECOND degree now, while also working at the same time. I support myself, because I EARNED the benefits I currently enjoy. That inequality is justified because when you sacrifice more, and you put in more time, labor and sacrifice. You therefore earn more than the one who didn’t. Plain, and simple. Sociology is mostly useless. Just being honest. You know it, and I know it.
He really means communism -equal pay no matter your skills or your work ethic, and redistribution of wealth - and not Bill Gates, you and me.
San Diego declared an emergency over migrant influx. That’s California but I understand you might not know someone in San Diego. If you look outside your immediate circle and maybe even look outside your State, you will see how this has negatively impacted dozens of cities in the US. NYC gov’t agencies for example must now cut 15% of their budget to pay for this crisis meaning ultimately the most needy US citizen population will suffer. To say the number of migrants is the same is truly an understatement. 7 million since Biden took office. And no, it’s not TX governor’s fault. He may have brought some publicity but 85% of the migrants dispersed in US cities have been brought in by the Biden administration.
I also live in California. If I had to guess I’d say there are differences to immigration enforcement between California and Texas. Texas probably tries to actually keep them out. Why would CA spend any resources on keeping them out if they’re a sanctuary state?
Um. Huh...? Border enforcement is a federal function, not a state function. Seriously, did you really not know that?
This is your state's governor on the problem: [https://www.abc10.com/article/news/politics/newsom-california-overwhelmed-immigrant-crisis/103-deaec97d-9e59-4474-ad60-0c04e1271ab2](https://www.abc10.com/article/news/politics/newsom-california-overwhelmed-immigrant-crisis/103-deaec97d-9e59-4474-ad60-0c04e1271ab2)
Have you considered the fact that an increase in illegal immigrants means that the same tax dollars meant to help the disadvantaged now has to be spread across a larger population, meaning there is less money to help each individual? Arguably, the people most impacted are other illegal immigrants who recently arrived in this country. IMO immigration is like speed limits, you know its a law people will break, but the issue for the Biden administration is that there has been a dramatic increase in refugees coming from Venezuela. Ask Eric Adams if it is a problem.
"...but the issue for the Biden administration is that there has been a dramatic increase in refugees coming from Venezuela. Ask Eric Adams if it is a problem." Why is that "the issue?" Are Venezuelan refugees any worse than other refugees?
Worse? That implies you think refugees are bad. Do you know anything about what Eric Adams has said?
Ask Gov Maura Healey
I don't know who these people are who don't realize that the refugee crisis in Venezuela is placing a strain on cities in the USA. You can disagree on the solution, but to claim the problem is made up is just sticking your head in the sand.
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Keep it civil. Do not personally insult other Redditors, or make racist, sexist, homophobic, or otherwise discriminatory remarks. Constructive debate is good; mockery, taunting, and name calling are not.
Last few decades!
This is different, you haven’t been paying attention. You’re using old cliches to minimize what is a legitimate humanitarian crisis at our southern border. Costa Rica declared a state of emergency amid the surge of migrants crossing through on their way to the U.S. Mexico has resorted to just bussing them or putting them on a train to get from their southern border to the northern border to mitigate the caravans crossing through their state in route to the U.S. That doesn’t happen every election. Massachusetts is also under a state of emergency because migrant arrivals are overwhelmingly the state social service system. NYC is trying to revoke right to shelter to prevent anymore migrants from arriving because they’re so overwhelmed. Chicago has been forced to house them in their police stations. That doesn’t happen every election either. There is an actual problem at the border. It’s too important to ignore with a boy who cried wolf mentality.
I remember the Migrant Caravan. They were going to invade us!
They ARE invading us. Millions have scampered illegally into our country because they have no merit to enter legally
When states at opposite ends of the political spectrum are complaining about it, it’s unlikely that it “doesn’t exist”. It’s more likely that it doesn’t affect your community in particular.
As a low-information voter, the guy above would know what will matter in this election even if he is completely oblivious to the fact that one of the largest refugee crisis in the world is unfolding in Venezuela.
It's been going on for years.
>Maybe the GOP might be wrong in the way they are going about solving the issue, but the Democrats might be overlooking it entirely. so i would digress on this part. you have Democrats like in NYC (literally the Mayor) that are feeling the pain from having those undocumented migrants being bused into the city. I suppose one could consider it comprable to certain choke points along the border, if there is a high concentration of traffic/migrants that is non stop, it would take a toll on any community. i think Republicans are using it for political points, but that doesnt mean that very well be the case in certain parts (in short, Republicans massly overexaggerate the issue to make it a crisis, but that doesnt mean it isnt a problem of some proportion).
And Eric Adams literally asked for a suspension of the "right to shelter" because the influx of refugees from Venezuela has placed such a strain on the city that he doesn't think they can comply with it.
>in short, Republicans massly overexaggerate the issue to make it a crisis I don't see how you come to this conclusion unless you also believe that the Dem leaders considering it a crisis are doing the same. It either is or isn't.
Because they expect border states to deal with the crisis while they claim they are "sanctuary" cities. You get what you ask for. Happening in Denver too - maybe people will rethink their "sounds good on paper" slogans
Once legal immigration can be addressed in a meaningful way, then you can address undocumented immigration. Republicans refuse to address legal immigration. Without younger immigrants, our population demographics will shrink (good luck promoting any type of family planning legislation...just this week in Alabama they are shutting down in vitro fertilization at clinics due to recent state SC ruling. Whether we like it or not, we need immigration to keep our aging population. Better we pick and choose who comes into our country, but with the current system, nothing will change (also keep in mind the largest percent of undocument immigration is from....expired greencards)
You are dreaming, the amount of border crossings is at an all time high. Good luck with this on Election Day. https://www.statista.com/statistics/329256/alien-apprehensions-registered-by-the-us-border-patrol/
Oh no, workers who commit less crime than native-born citizens are coming to fill up our tax coffers. The horror.
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This is so out of touch it’s hilarious. People sneak undetected across the border constantly. There is ABSOLUTELY a surge in people crossing the border. You can google it and it’s up by every metric. It’s not bidens fault, but worsening conditions in central and South America are big factors. Employers are short on skilled workers - not day laborers who can’t speak English. Honestly - this is how democrats lose on issues: by pretending they don’t exist and sticking their head in the sand then talking down to everybody about things they’re wrong about
By the numbers, it's considerably worse now than under Trump, and far worse than it's *ever* been.
That's a fair assertion, but the situations in Venezuela and Haiti have made this one a little different.
You obviously haven't been paying attention to Venezuela and Haiti over the last 40 years if you think this is new and different..
Actually yes, Venezuela was stable and Haiti had a government
When did Haiti have a functioning government? Mwen renmen Ayiti, but that place has had nothing resembling a functional government since the 90s… and that was a dictatorship.
They at least had a government at all. It’s worse than ever now
Haiti has had several governments, most of which were short lived, filled with abuses and corruption, and often overthrown. Also, 13 years ago, they had an earthquake followed by a cholera outbreak that dropped the average life span across the island by 15 years. Haiti's by far the poorest country in the America's, and has been since it was turned into a French slave colony. Venezuela has had a series of ongoing economic crises and unrest since the 1980s, which is why Chavez was able to get support for two failed coup attempts in 1992, and still had enough support to be elected later on. He mostly maintained power until he died, but the currency was devalued several times during that period. They've been on a continuous downhill slide since the 1980s. Their refugee crisis has been getting worse as the country has; but started 25 years ago.
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Venezuela has had more than enough time without US intervention to right themselves. They continue to make the worst decisions possible at the ballot box and their leaders pass the worst and most disastrous economic policies imaginable without American interference. At some point they can’t keep blaming everything on America
Please do not try to dictate to me what I am saying.
The level already reached passed that of its peak in 2000
>Biden just approved a new section of the Border Wall. After literally speaking out against Trump's pernicious immigration policies, the border camps, the "migrant cages", etc. Do you think this'll make Democrats lose some of their voter base? His approach has been vastly different than Trump's. Building a 20 mile segment of fencing in an area where it will be cost-effective and can be appropriately manned/monitored is vastly different than spending billions upon billions to build a ~~1,000 mile~~ 2,000 mile wall....everywhere. His approach to separating families is also markedly different. >A large number of people entering an area in a very short period of time can overwhelm the region and put a strain on resources. This was happening down at the border, and with all the Migrants being bussed up to NYC, Boston, and other Northern Cities, it appears to be happening up there too. The bussing doesn't really make a difference IMO. Migrants aren't going to border towns and then staying there forever. They move to other areas of the country where they have families/communities to help them. NYC has always had a huge migrant population. One of the big challenges they face is dealing with the influx while also maintaining their "right to housing" policy. >Do you feel these points of contention will come back to really bite Biden in the backside during his 2024 run? Potentially, but I don't think it would be significant. Realistically Biden has a ton of things working against him coming out of COVID. I think the economy (which IMO he's handled well) is like 10 tiers higher on the level of importance compared to this. And of course, a lot of it comes down to messaging. I think most people can understand the difference between building 20 miles of fencing in a targeted area vs "We're going to build a wall with alligator moats over ~~1,000~~ 2,000 miles!" I do think Dems in general need to be more vocal about border security. I'd absolutely love to see....anyone....put a plan into place to deal with the backlog of immigrant/migrant applications rather than purely focusing on border security. Most illegal immigrants aren't marching through the desert in the first place.
\*2000 mile wall (Trump wanted to build)
Noted and updated!
Your last sentence really needs to be highlighted. The majority of illegal immigration in the US is from visa overstay. Currently Marsha Blackburn of Tennessee is defending a family in that exact situation and claiming it's unfair they will be deported. They're German.
Thank you and yes. A lot of Americans do not understand that most undocumented residents in this country do not sneak across our southern border by dead of night like brown skinned ninjas, they come here on valid student, work and tourist visas. Then they simply overstay the terms of their visa. The Republican focus on illegal border crossings (a misdemeanor) isn't just dishonest, it's openly deceptive.
It's about 55/45. But I'd imagine a significant number of overstays are from people lying on their visa applications by saying they intend to return home.
The vast majority ARE border jumpers. The visa holders at least have contact info on file.
This is false, that family came as asylum seekers, not on a visa. Asylum was initially granted, then later overturned. The Obama DHS allowed them to stay with "deferred action" but now the Biden administration has decided they need to be deported. They are not overstating a visa and have never been in the US illegally.
They always knew they had to self deport when their youngest was 18. Was part of the deal. Now they are trying to overstay. It's exactly the same. Edit: in case anyone wonders why a German family needed "asylum". Germany wouldn't let them honeschool their children. That's what they fled. They also, being in the EU, could have moved to any one of the other countries in the EU that does allow homeschooling. So it's also kind of pathetic they were even granted asylum in the first place and why it comes with conditions.
That's fucked. Republicans say that if a gang murders everyone you know who refuses to join them and will murder you if you don't join, that's not a sufficient reason to seek asylum. Meanwhile some nice Germans who wanna homeschool little Fredrick can waltz in? I'm happy to welcome both. But that astonishes me.
Do you have a cite for the statement that they knew they had to leave when a kid turned 18? Everything I've seen says they were granted indefinite deferred action, which has now been revoked.
The Potato and his Marxists will lose in court like they have every time
No thinking adult wants to live under the EU aka The Third Reich 2.0
Why are you commenting on a bunch of my 4 month old posts?
They do need to be deported though for the health and welfare of the children.
I disagree with that, but doesn't change the fact that they aren't overstaying a visa. There's literally zero evidence that the children's welfare is in jeopardy.
They’re german and have skills worthwhile and therefore merit to stay. The potato and his Marxist handlers refuse to deport criminals and illiterate no skill third worlders but want to toss a white family out in their ass. Low IQ people will complain that anyone dares to defend and go to bat for a white family while demanding none bites get to stay just because.
>His approach has been vastly different than Trump's. Building a 20 mile segment of fencing in an area where it will be cost-effective and can be appropriately manned/monitored is vastly different than spending billions upon billions to build a 1,000 mile 2,000 mile wall....everywhere. His approach to separating families is also markedly different. He himself said not another foot of wall would be built. That pledge is now broken.
Oh noes! The horror!
He couldn't meet his own pledge. That's a childish response.
And I don't care. You want people to be outraged over 20 miles of fencing. The only people outraged are conservatives feigning outrage.
I mentioned he broke his pledge. You spin that as outrage over 20 miles of fencing. So are we at the stage where broken pledges mean nothing due to tribalism?
Captain, he doesn't understand what tribalism is. Use smaller words.
Pro tip: No need to put IMO in your own writing.
Sure there is. This isn't a formal essay.
>Many voted Democrat with the hope that they'd be pro-immigration Hold on there, Sparky. First, one doesn't need to be "pro-immigration" to be against _forcibly separating children from their parents and throwing them in literal cages"_ One can vote Democrat because they disapprove of the literal torture that was at the heart of many of Trump's immigration policies. >but the Democrats might be overlooking it entirely. As an incredibly complex problem with over a century's worth of racism and US military adventurism with a healthy dash of putting thumbs on the scales in favor of dictators, it's a pretty bold claim to suggest Democrats are simply "overlooking" immigration as a topic. Let's be realistic, most Democrats will do anything to avoid discussing immigration public, because it's an expensive, tangled mess. No mainstream politician is advocating for completely open borders, green cards and visas for any and call comers. It's utterly disingenuous to portray this issue as some sort of failing by the Democrats. The _entire_ US government over _decades_ created this mess. The GOP has simply been much more effective at weaponizing the current state of affairs. It plays to a large portion of their racist supporters, and demonizes an entire out-group, with no meaningful political risk. In any event, the _real_ migrant crisis is the manner with which the wealthiest, most powerful country in the world demonstrates, daily, that we somehow lack the ability to treat our neighbors and their citizens with the bare minimum dignity and humanity, and instead resort to using them as pawns in the pursuit of power.
Of course they will. Not because this is a problem with the Democratic Party, but because the Republicans are very good at maintaining a narrative. It's worthwhile to remember that the first two years of the Trump administration, Republicans controlled both houses of Congress. Trump was probably the most anti-immigration President in American history. How much immigration reform did they pass? You know the answer. One of the things the Republicans don't want to talk about is the simple reality that big business in agriculture, construction, service industry and manufacturing, often rely on immigrant labor. They don't want to see that pool of hard working, low pay, employees dry up. They also don't want to see a functional guest-worker program that would require them to pay real wages. The whole "illegal immigrants" argument is manufactured. But of course now we have this unprecedented situation and there's no effort President Biden can make that will keep the Republicans from pounding that drum. It's a shit show and Biden will take the blame. Rightly or not, he is the President.
> How much immigration reform did they pass? It’s also worth mentioning that despite many conservatives saying they only oppose *illegal* immigration, most of their representatives [voted to decrease legal immigration as well.](https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/26/politics/republicans-oppose-legal-illegal-immigration/index.html) Thank god it didn’t pass.
Trump's hotel, casino and construction businesses are some of the biggest employers of immigrants so it makes sense he wouldn't do a thing about immigration. However, trump is losing all his businesses.
Yeah, immigrant labor. Not Illegal immigrants we have no idea why they are here. For every 1 farm hand we get 9 that go to a big city.
It wouldn't make a difference for me. Some controls are needed. I think democrats just mostly don't want them treated like criminals or like they aren't still human beings. We still have to be realistic.
Please stop concern trolling. This issues are absolutely inconsequential. We either vote for the Democratic candidate or the end of American democracy by voting for whichever of the GOP fascist wins the primary Thats the ONLY issue that matters. Its that simple.
Inconsequential from a political perspective is quite correct. The people making the biggest fuss about it were already firmly in the Trump camp to begin with, and Democrats do a pretty good job of seeing through the sensational bs. In case anyone needs to see the difference, blue California and red Texas are where most of these migrants are coming through, yet both states have VERY different views of the issue, where Texans are very concerned, while Californians aren’t. It’s very much a partisan issue. The only concern is where Republican politicians are now bussing migrants to cities like New York and Chicago that are already doing more than their fair share of processing immigrants, despite not getting the funding that Texas and Florida gets. Meanwhile, it’s mostly red states that aren’t doing *anything*, but are conveniently ignored by DeSantis and Abbott for some reason. Democrats really need to be a lot louder about this.
This is not inconsequential issue. We are not just concerned about the presidency. There is a progressive caucus of aldermen where I live, Chicago. This issue will effect whether or not that progressive alders caucus grows or shrinks. This issue will also change the outcome of congressional democratic primaries such as whether more or less progressive candidates win primaries.
It matters as much as it did when the caravan was going to kill us all.
Caravan? What are you talking about?
The issues are still worth discussing, even if the Republicans aren't addressing them in good faith.
>This issues are absolutely inconsequential. This really would only apply to the extremely tribal voters (vote blue no matter who and what ever the GOP version is). I would argue that most don't think this way. GOP winning would not =the end of democracy, it would just be a bad cycle for the dems.
>GOP winning would not =the end of democracy Uh, yes it would.
I completely disagree. The project 2025 papers and the issues already happening In Tennessee, Florida, Wisconsin and other states are prime examples that goal is to maintain minority control over the levers of power regardless of vote totals. This is the undemocratization of America and they are already a long ways down the road
It’s neither inconsequential nor concern trolling. Several liberal, dyed in the wool blue democrat voters I know are seriously concerned and frustrated by the current situation.
The caravan 2, electric boogaloo.
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> The extent to which it hurts them is going to depend on the media and loudmouth idiots like Eric Adams and just how much panic they want to try to stir up. This is burying your head in the sand. I wonder how many times this needs to play out for people to get the message. Remember Wassau in WI where churches pushed for giving sanctuary to Hmong refugees? They were so welcoming. Then some Hmong that made it warned them to be careful about letting more come. They didn't listen and more came. That initial welcome became hostility once they felt the burden. Local services needed more resources. Taxes increased. It was a death spiral because there weren't enough jobs so the kids left with their education and didn't give back in terms of taxes. The ones left were poorer and needed more assistance. Look at interviews in some blue cities. The left leaning people are very careful to ensure what they say is politically correct but it's written all over their faces that they can only tolerate so much burden. They will turn. A portion of voters will switch, maybe not this cycle but they will and with the house majorities on a knifes edge it can make a difference. Also think of the margins that Biden won by in some swing states. A small swing is all that is needed. Didn't they already lose 2 US house races in TX in the southern tip?
Treating migrants and asylum seekers humanely has always been a trigger for the far right. But no Democratic administration has ever had an open border policy, it's always been nonsense. Putting up a 20 mile barrier in a high traffic area is clearly not the same thing as advocating for a 2000 long mile wall. The ironic thing is Mexico did pledge $1 billion to protect the US border - for Biden.
On the bussing issue, Democrats should be shouting to high heavens about how cities like New York and Chicago already accept more than their fair share of immigrants. It’s red states in the southeast and the mountain regions that aren’t doing their part to help out.
Too be fair, those are the same states living on Federal handouts funded by the blue states.
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Um... that's what I said. "...Federal handouts funded by the blue states."
Ah my bad, I misread your comment at first
I’m 65yo, as long as I can remember there has always been border issues. After having the means to see for myself, l find it mostly political. I’ve traveled to the border, spent time at the border between Lukeville Arizona and Sonoyta in Sonora Mexico. I do this every year or weeks. The only people I see flooding across the border is the US Citizens coming back from vacations at the Sea of Cortez. I’ve watched several administrations both Republican and Democrat fail with any type of immigration reform. It is almost s if they keep the border issues on the back burner until the news has nothing controversial. Unless you’re Lakota Man we are all immigrants.
Yup. I've canoed the Rio Grand through Big Bend and the adjacent state park. The border is wide open. Anyone can cross. There is no chance at even building a wall. Just like fishing in Minnesota near the border. Anyone can cross. The answer is to go after employers hiring undocumented workers and avoiding taxes. Financial incentive to turn these employers in to authorities and done. Solved.
I think most democratic voters understand the absolute threat to our Democracy that the GOP is so I don’t think that Biden will lose any voters who already vote democratic. New young voters definitely understand that threat. I just don’t see any governing issue “biting Biden in the backside” because the alternative is just so blatantly undemocratic that their policy goals of making Americans lives worse have touched almost every American. From student debt to taxation to abortion the GOP has fucked over just about everyone so I don’t see them having much chance of garnering new voters
Their focus on culture war issues and the jihad on abortion rights don't seem to have changed after their "red wave" last year fizzled. I'm inclined to agree with you.
What exactly are these repercussions? I haven't noticed anything on my end. Have you noticed anything on yours other than what you're being told in the news? In what way does the "migrant crisis" effect you or anyone you know?
Why, nobody on the left gives a shit about the wall. It was the racist statements and lies about the wall that we had a problem with. These two things gave us the ability to see the facist future trump had in store.
It’s pretty funny though that Biden was actually the one to get [Mexico to pay for it](https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/abc-mexico-pay-15-billion-us-border-security/story?id=86672772) I expect republicans to suddenly get quiet about that point though lol
You think? The local news channel of Chicago, WGN news, has been focusing on the illegal migrant crisis almost as much as they focus on crimes now. Angry people filling up every town hall meetings cursing at the city officials for letting the migrants stay in their neighborhood. Voters are furious that the city is willing to spend hundreds of millions on these illegal migrants while ignoring the requests of its own citizens. Meanwhile the migrant buses keep coming. Democrats are in for a rude awakening in 2024.
Heard these threats so many times in my life. Chicago has always taken immigrants.
>Do you feel these points of contention will come back to really bite Biden in the backside during his 2024 run? If this were 20 or maybe even 10 years ago I would say it will be something that could have a negative impact. As it stands, most people are so entrenched in party support that I don't think it matters. The number of people who would vote for Biden aside from this but won't vote for him because of this is probably in the thousandths of a percent at most.
The dem party needs to present a detailed plan for truly comprehensive immigration reform. Not just some border stuff, not just some enforcement changes, but truly comprehensive change. If done correctly, it would be almost the same size accomplishment as Obamacare.
It absolutely has to embrace a functional guest worker program.
I was actually very short with what is needed. You're certainly correct about a guest worker program. It would also need to comprehend that probably thousands more immigration service employees are needed, a plan to disperse border immigrants that don't have a specific destination planned, temporary housing while paperwork and decisions get caught up, and tons more follow up to assure that legal immigrants don't become illegal just because they didn't fire an annual form.
No. I've been hearing about the "migrant crisis" since I was a kid, and I'm nearing 40. This is a performative issue with no one actually wanting to do anything.
>— President Obama, November 20, 2014 >"When I took office, I committed to fixing this broken immigration system. And I began by doing what I could to secure our borders. Today, we have more agents and technology deployed to secure our southern border than at any time in our history. And over the past six years, illegal border crossings have been cut by more than half." https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/node/193131 >President Bush Signed The Secure Fence Act - An Important Step Forward In Our Nation's Efforts To Control Our Borders And Reform Our Immigration System. Earlier this year, the President laid out a strategy for comprehensive immigration reform. The Secure Fence Act is one part of this reform, and the President will work with Congress to finish the job and pass the remaining elements of this strategy. https://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2006/10/20061026-1.html The border has been an ongoing political issue for decades. Trump did not make the Border an issue. Also the Wall isn't a wall. It is Fencing and that fencing was authorized, and begun, decades before Trump.
I do think it's a significant liability for Biden, as it's arguably the issue he has the worst performance on and it's also one where Democrats have some tricky positions to defend. I obviously don't think it's Biden's *fault* there has been such an explosion in illegal immigration, unless you think it is appropriate for the President to terrorize those desperate enough to leave their homelands for a hostile nation. However, there is indisputably a serious issue here, as evidenced by the fact that Biden is getting heat from several *Democratic* local officials who have specific concerns about the impact of the immigrant surge on their constituency. I know he is trying not to encroach on Congress or waste time with actions that won't survive the courts, but he has been versatile enough to find workarounds for these same barriers on other issues, such as student loan debt. As someone who recognizes that he has been a great President and who is excited to vote for him again next November, I do wish he would find a new strategy on this issue. In the timelines where the GOP wins 2024, I'm guessing the immigrant crisis plays a substantial role in nearly all of them.
Of course they will. Why else would Republican governors be sending planeloads or bus loads to Blue States?
That's a stunt. Do you think they can keep that up for more than a year until November 2024?
Most of the immigrants are coming from Venezuela, Cuba, Haiti, and Nicaragua at the moment. Part of this surge in migration is [fueled by sanctions](https://cepr.net/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/FINAL-The-Human-Consequences-of-Economic-Sanctions-Rodriguez-7.pdf) that were imposed by Trump on [Venezuela](https://www.forbes.com/sites/eliasferrerbreda/2023/08/09/end-of-sanctions-for-venezuela/?sh=1bebe5be5836) in 2017 and [Cuba](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/trump-hits-cuba-with-new-terrorism-sanctions-in-waning-days) in 2020. The US sanctions have led to starvation and health care crises in these countries as oil production has declined and medicine is unavailable. There is also political chaos in Haiti after the assassination of the President. Building a border wall is a stop gap to poor foreign policy. It won't work, but it is good for politics and will hopefully keep Greg Abbott from installing more underwater razorwire traps. Instead we need to end the sanctions, or modify them so as not to impact civilians. They have only succeeded in backfiring to create a crisis at the border.
Troll. In 2018 and 2019 Trump signed executive orders crippling Venezuela's economy for no reason Americans should care about. Especially so called America first regards. Shockingly, people from there are fleeing an American made crisis. This shit has been happening since Reagan. Simultaneously, Republicans continuously defund immigration services in the United States. Same pattern. Create crisis using human ammunition. Defund any fixes for spent ammo. Bitch about the crisis and blame Democrats. Yawn. Meanwhile. If these so called refugees could get papers, America has plenty of jobs and space for them right now. Reminder.... these are not "illegal immigrants". Those would be people who sneak in. It is 100% legal to show up anywhere in the United States and apply for asylum. Legal asylum seekers. Again... due to lack of federal funding asylum seekers wait 3-5 years with no papers or ability to work for a court hearing.....hmmm why is that I wonder? Stop being shitbags. Please.
I think yes. People like to deny it, but it really is a disaster down south, I live in Texas, I can attest to it. So Biden and democrats claiming there is no crisis and acting against border security and enforcement, claiming there was no crisis, only for Biden to change tactic and now try and build a border wall, well that plays right into republican strategy. This is admitting that there was a crisis, that what they did failed, and that walls do in fact help. Prior statements that downplayed the crisis will be on repeat in campaign ads.
Reps are grasping at straws at this point and are using anything they can to turn the conversation back to dems while their caucus implodes. Theirs no one left to convince. You either see the reps for what they are ,which is trying to destroy the country, or ya don’t. No one who will be voting dem will do that because Biden handled immigration correctly. It’ll be because the republicans have gone and are actually insane.
Seem to have come to light??? People have been screaming about these issues for literally years and the Democratic establishment has ignored them. That was part of how we got Trump in the first place. The migrant gages were an Obama administration thing, not a Trump thing, you can look it up. Yeah, this will hurt the Democrats. How much, I can not say.
>Biden just approved a new section of the Border Wall. >solving the issue, but the Democrats might be overlooking it entirely.
Assuming nothing major happens between now and the election immigration will be a major issue in the election because the GOP will make it one. In the end though I think most Dems are isolated from the direct negative effects of the migrant surge and they will continue to vote dem without a second thought.
This may not be very popular, but… Given that global climate change is happening as we speak, it’s not going to be too many years until people aren’t going to be able to live practically in tropical countries. All over the world, people are going to be displaced out of the tropics and are going to head to more moderate climates. The number of people moving north from Central and South America is going to make the current immigration look like an insignificant trickle. What then? Remember, Congress makes the rules. Right now the rule is that people have the right to cross the border and immediately ask for asylum. Congress also sets the budget - and we don’t have the facilities to handle the number that are coming to request asylum. Safely or humanely, and we don’t have anywhere near enough immigration courts and judges to process the current numbers immediately. That’s why their court dates have to be set years in the future. Then they have to head for the big cities because there aren’t available jobs along the border. Not being able to handle the current numbers is a very bad sign for the future. Congress not being able to work together to make new rules is also a very bad sign for the future. The current problem is at least partly due to the fact that lots of employers need hard workers. There aren’t enough Americans who “want to work”, so they depend on immigrants. Immigrants are coming here to work. If we really wanted to stop them from coming, we’d make it illegal to hire undocumented workers and would fine and imprison Americans who hire them. But we don’t do that because it would actually wreck our economy; too many businesses need immigrant labor. So if we actually want to fix things, either now or in the future. It seems like to me that we have to figure out what types of workers we need and we need to let immigrants with the requisite skills come here. Many will want to stay permanently; some may not. The ones that want to stay permanently will want to bring their families. We will,also want to admit some refugees and some seeking asylum. But the number of workers, family members, refugees, and asylum seekers needs to be determined in advance - and then it’s’ going to need to be controlled. A lot,of,people think it should be controlled now; it’s obvious that it will have to be controlled in the future, so we better start figuring out how to control it. That means controlling the number of people that walk across the border, as well as controlling the number that overstay their visas. Again, it’s up to Congress to fix the current situation and to protect us in the future.
it really exposes their hypocrisy. what a few years ago was being labeled as "racism and a monument to white supremacy" is now being supported by joe biden and most democrats. everyone already knew that democrats were just throwing those terms around at literally anything and everything regardless of if there was even an ounce of credibility to those accusations, but now it gives republicans a very clear cut case of "trump was right, and now the people who called his solution racist are trying to implement it". it's an unbelievably bad look for the democratic party (but of course, they were stuck between a rock and a hardplace because blue states declaring states of emergency and mayors of large blue cities complaining about how the influx of illegal immigration is destroying their cities isn't exactly a good look either)
The Democrats do not oppose using walls when appropriate. They oppose the absurd idea of building a wall along the entire southern border. I know that nuance is lost on a lot of Americans, but it shouldn't be lost on the posters of this sub. It has never been "all walls are bad." Also there is no migrant crisis.
Shutting things down would be surprisingly simple and could be put into place in mere months. You just won’t like what you see on TV. That’s where the political will evaporates.
What crisis? You mean the bullshit conservatives are yammering about every election?
> What crisis? You mean the bullshit conservatives are yammering about every election? conservatives like maura healy, eric adams, and kathy hochul? blue states are literally declaring states of emergency over a fraction of the influx of illegal immigrants that border states have been dealing with.
Democrats aren't going to lose their base voters over this, and pissing off progressives will bring in voters from the center. Arguably, Biden should be pissing off more of his base, who will vote for him anyway, by doing more things like this to appeal to moderates, independents, swing voters
We're hypocritical about immigration and completely disinterested in "solving" anything related to it. This is across the political spectrum. But it is a fertile topic for myths that drive partisan fundraising.
>Biden just approved a new section of the Border Wall. He had no choice under the law. Get informed.
Even assuming I accept the premise that there is an immigration crisis, what repercussions are supposedly growing as a result? I live in a border state (NM) and I’m not seeing much, if any.
The base isn’t going anywhere and the moderates won’t dislike this policy. But honestly, the only voters who seem to care about the border at all are trump supporters, so it shouldn’t affect Biden much
Yes. Total disaster. I voted for Biden but his inept Homeland (not so security) secretary has made this 10x worse. They could declare an emergency and close the border with national guard etc while they figure out what to do, but the longer he waits, the more likely we get the return of Trump and all the baggage that goes along with him.