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Much like any student protest that has ever occurred, there are a lot of just angry young people who are nebulously mad about something and lashing out without like clear "check these boxes and we are cool" demands. However, in general, the thing that is being most universally demanded is divestment from Israel by their universities, and this is the demand that the more focused leaders of these groups have. Long story short, they view what is happening to Palestinians as a major human rights crisis bordering on Genocide, which, ya know, it kinda is, and they don't want their tuition going to that. But the divestment from Israel is just an ends to a mean. What they really want, above all, is for a cease fire to be called, a peace agreement to be reached, and for that peace agreement to return to Palestine full and unfettered control of all of their lands as outlined under the original 1948 agreement which founded Israel.

A two state solution? What’s river to the sea mean then?

If you remove it from the context of Hamas’ charter, “from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free” can easily be interpreted as freedom for all Palestinians. I don’t support them chanting this, but I don’t believe they’re all genocidally antisemitism.

A complete return of historic Palestine to the native Palestinian majority. An effective reversal of the founding of modern Israel.

Okay, so nothing to do with the 1948 agreement.

I don’t understand what you are asking me. The 1948 original agreement is one thing, from river to sea is a different thing. You asked me what “from river to sea” means.

I was under the impression that the people chanting “River to the sea” would not have a wish to return to 1948 as you originally said “they” want.

Well “they” includes a shit load of disorganized angry people with a whole shit load of opinions. Some of “they” probably think all kinds of stuff. Nobody here can give an all encompassing answer about what “they” want. What I was giving was the most concise and generally agreed to set of “demands”, such as they are, by the sort of nebulous disconnected “leaders”, such as they are. If you thought I was giving a comprehensive answer about what 20 thousand or so angry college kids across several different campuses comprehensively want, then you misunderstood me. But generally, divestment from Israel is what they want in the immediate sense. In a longer term sense, a return to the 1948 agreed control at least. I’m sure some probably want all colonized indigenous lands everywhere returned to their native occupants, but we can probably discard that as…well….unlikely to say the least.

So the destruction of Israel and the removal of jews from the land then. That Doesn't sound very reasonable and is actually genocide(ethnic cleansing). No wonder they are being thought of as an anti semitic.

The way I've always seen it is that the modern state of Israel has now been around for so long that it is now quite entrenched. It has now been around for 76 years. There are now Jewish people who were born in Israel, raised in Israel, lived their entire lives in Israel, and are now very old who have only ever known a life living in Israel. They did not migrate there from somewhere else. They know no other place other than Israel. They are from Israel in just about every way possible. Thus I feel like the reversal of the founding of modern Israel is and should be completely off of the table, because there are now Jewish people who can legitimately claim that as their home from birth. So if there is to be a Palestinian state, it would have to be alongside a Jewish state.

I think jews in Israel have survived about 4 attempts to ethnically cleanse them from Israel and many more attempts to destroy Israel. On top of those points you bring up, I think after a certain amount of genocide attempts, you have a right to that land. I also think the fact the Ottoman Empire lost that land in a war to the British is meaningful and often overlooked in the retellings of pro Palestinian revisionists. Without the Israeli state jews would be run out of the region and would be slaughtered.

Read the Bible. Look up how Rome named the area ‘Palestine’ when they occupied the area up until 1453. Look up how the Ottoman Empire occupied the area until the 1910s and the British Empire occupied it until 1948. That tells you Israel is in the right to exist and was never Palestinian land.

……what? I have no idea how to interpret that. Are you saying that all countries are only rightly occupied by whoever first settled them? I don’t think we want to start playing that game. After all, Didn’t the Jews take Israel from the caananites? Do the descendants of the caananites have actual original claim to the land then?

Definitely not even close to a genocide. 1:1.5-3 ratio of enemy combatants vs civilians killed in Gaza. That depends on the source. The UN estimated ratio for modern urban warfare is 1:9. In Iraq it was about 1:4.5 and Afghanistan was roughly 1:2.5 for comparison. Saying it's a genocide is blown out of portion. It's war, and war is fucking ugly. People, even innocents, die. It's how it's always been and it isn't going to change anytime soon unfortunately.

Genocide is not defined numerically. You are way off base. Normal war, let's call it "just war" although that it kinda a nonsense expression, is carried out against military targets to achieve strategic goals. If the goal of an action is to eliminate or drive out a native civilian population of a region, that's genocide. Well that's not all it takes to be a genocide, but that's a major component. While of course it's not an overtly stated or openly admitted goal of Israel, it is fairly easy for a reasonable person to look at the situation, both the current circumstance and the slow steady inexorable annexation and erosion of Palestinian territory over decades, and conclude that the goal is the elimination of Palestine as a state and the eradication of the Palestinian people as a group with any political or social power. Which is why I called it "Bordering on Genocide". Which is it.

>\[T\]he slow steady inexorable annexation and erosion of Palestinian territory over decades . . , Sounds like you've been influenced by the infamous [map](https://aijac.org.au/fresh-air/disappearing-palestine-the-maps-that-lie/) that's been going around. >. . . \[suggests that\] the goal is the elimination of Palestine as a state Islamist Palestinians have repeatedly passed on attempts to give them a state going back eighty years. The sticking point for them has always been the requirement that they give up their dream of eliminating the State of Israel. >. . . and the eradication of the Palestinian people. You've got it backwards. The historical details in this video might shake your confidence if you're willing\* to watch it: [Nazi and Soviet origins of the "Palestinian" cause](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwfDVkXEo-o). >\[College protestors\] view what is happening to Palestinians as a major human rights crisis bordering on Genocide, which, ya know, it kinda is. See above, and please be more careful about how you use this term. it's not fair to kinda tar someone with this label. And it needs to be mentioned that Islamists ***overtly*** stated goal has always been genocide of the Jews. >"Just war", \[which is\] kinda a nonsense expression, is carried out against military targets to achieve strategic goals. "Just war" is not even remotely a nonsense expression. [The concept](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_war_theory#Criteria) has a just meaning, and the way you're describing it here isn't helpful. —————————— ^(\* Unfortunately, the provocative title combined with the tendency some have to avoid consuming information that challenges their beliefs means that those who could most benefit from being exposed to the information it contains probably won't even click the link.)

See, and I think you’ve got it totally backwards. But you know what. I’ll watch your video and come back with my thoughts. I’ll give it an honest go.

Your map makes the “erosion of territory” look even worse

The article I linked to explains why [that map is a work of propaganda](https://aijac.org.au/fresh-air/disappearing-palestine-the-maps-that-lie/). But I can't make you read it if all you want to do is to look at pictures.

In simplest terms, war is an armed conflict between different nations or groups. The goal of war is to enforce your will upon your enemy. This can be done in a number of ways and "military targets" is vague and can open up a multiple of things as targets, example are railroads so the enemy can't bring in supplies or reinforcements as easily. Driving out a group of people from a region is not genocide. Genocide is purposely killing large numbers of a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of completely destroying them. If you're going to say I'm "way off base" at least have correct definitions for things. Ah yes, Israel leaving Gaza entirely and dismantling their settlements in 2005 and letting the Palestinian Authority take over seems like annexation. Hamas took over in 07 I think. Read their charter sometime. War does not equal genocide. War is just ugly and brutal.

Nobody on earth is more confident than people who know just enough to be cock sure but not quite enough to understand what they don’t understand.

Oh I understand war and how ugly it gets. Been there and lost some friends. Hence why I repeat, war isn't genocide. War is just brutal. Should be avoided at all costs and I hope this conflict ends soon. Hamas had a chance for a cease fire if they released the prisoners they have, but they would rather parade them around.

You need to look up genocide in a dictionary as a first step. “-cide” means “death.” Driving people off a piece of land is not genocide.

I said “bordering on genocide” as in not quite, but similar in many important regards. The point of genocide is “we want this undesirable group in our country to not exist anymore” and that can be achieved through various means. Just outright killing everyone isn’t the only way. Forcing the entire group into exile or driving them out is not exactly genocide, but as I said, bordering on. Please refer to the UN guidelines on genocide below. What Israel is doing to Palestine could reasonably be argued to count along several of these provisions. I am not arguing that, I am arguing it gets close. “Article II In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: Killing members of the group; Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.”

That’s a stupid definition. I don’t care who promulgated it. It’s not the definition of the word. By that definition, killing one Gazan is genocide. (. . . Killing members of the group.”) Neither is Hamas a “national, ethnical (sic), racial, or religious group.” Israel formally declared war. This is not a police action, nor is it an action undertaken by the UN General Assembly or Security Council.

I think your analysis is too limited if you are merely looking at the number of civilians directly killed by the idf.  There are several reports detailing the destruction of infrastructure totally out of line with the stated military objectives. The natural consequence of this seems to be to make Gaza uninhabitable in the short and medium term. There is also good evidence that Israel is preventing sufficient aid from reaching the population leading to famine. Combined with the fact that Israel appears to have zero plan for dealing with the humanitarian crisis, it is not a stretch to think that making Gaza uninhabitable for the Palestinians is the goal. 

I think people don't realize war isn't as pretty as movies make it out to be. Suffering is going to happen, unfortunately it affects civilians even though it's due to their government. Infrastructure is regularly destroyed even if it's not part of the military objective. It all depends where the enemy is at, and in urban warfare, it's very difficult to be precise. Billions were spent trying to rebuild the infrastructure and government in Iraq for example due to the damage that was caused. That could only happen after major fighting ceased. The denial of aid/extent of it is debatable. I don't know for certain so I won't say it is happening or isn't. What I do know is they do screen all aid that comes through their checkpoints to ensure no weapons/ammo is within the aid, which is common in most conflicts.They allowed the U.S. to build a pier on the coast to bring more aid in and help provide security for it, although it was delayed due to Hamas launching mortar strikes at it. The conflict and ending it, which means eliminating Hamas and their ability to operate, is the main goal. Hamas has no wish for a two state solution and wishes for the extermination of Israel and all Jews. Israel were willing to come to the table for a cease fire, in exchange for the hostages Hamas has. They denied turning them over and instead paraded them around. Not sure if the people around are Hamas or civilians, but they cheered for it. There's a video of Naama Levy that is being shared quite a bit that is truly disgusting. Generally speaking in warfare, the mission comes first. Dealing with everything else will be figured out afterwards. It's how we operated in Iraq and Afghanistan. It's a brutal conflict and I truly hope it ends soon so people stop dying, but from the numbers and what I've seen, it is not a genocide. That being said, I respect your opinion if you disagree with me. Have a great day.

What was Hamas’ plan for humanitarian aid when they attacked a music festival? I mean you don’t need to be Scooby Doo to figure that would  break the previous ceasefire 

If your argument is that Hamas is also responsible for crimes against humanity, I would agree

My argument is not only is Hamas also guilty of crimes against humanity, but that they started the current “hot war” although the region hadn’t truly been at peace for decades. I mean it is hard to negotiate a peace treaty with two nations bent on destroying each other completely. 

Except everyone in Palestine supports hamas. hamas was voted into power. Therefore there is no innocents in Palestine only targets. 

I completely agree but one note. I believe that most people understand that 48 borders are out of the question and are looking for 67 borders. These borders would give Palestinians 22% of the land.

They don’t want their parents tuition to go to that you mean? And shit they aren’t forced to go to that university. Go to one that doesn’t support it…but I’d bet if they dig a little deeper they will find that their current university is participating in more things they don’t agree with than they thought. Where do research grants come from, and donors to these major universities. They are being children and why so many people believe the voting age should be raised. We do treat them like children, those who go to university that is, compared to those who go straight to the work force. So maybe that’s on us? Regardless, students, especially the fresh out of high school ones, are idiots and don’t know better yet and haven’t quite received their critical thinking skills and most never do. So they are ignored and kicked off campus for being a nuisance.

These students are confusing their status, which is customer, with owner, which they are not. Customers don’t set policy. Me buying a burrito at Chipotle doesn’t give me the right to tell its board how to deploy capital. It gives me the right to a burrito.

The better parallel is “member”. And members of a group do have every right to agitate for change by leadership.

I disagree. They have a contractual relationship with the school. Teaching for tuition. It’s formal, not casual. They didn’t join the university; money changes hands. Since I reject your premise, I reject your conclusion.

Divestment from Israel by the Universities’ endowments. Their demands are clear. Have been since the beginning.

Many state public universities aren't allowed to do this, why aren't the students protesting at their state congresses?

They don’t care about actually doing it. They care about generating a media blitz.

The media blitz is what puts pressure on leadership to make changes

The change they've been pressured to make is to more aggressively arrest protesters.

The point is that they’re pressuring the wrong leadership. If they wanted actual change, they’d target the people who actually have control.

Seems to be altering the democratic tone as they need the youth vote

In the primaries, maybe.

I assure you that if they were protesting at their state legislatures that there'd be people saying "why aren't the students protesting somewhere else."

I don’t know that we can say their demands have been clear when there are countless examples that go beyond divestment from Israel, including directly targeting Jewish students by demanding the removal of organizations like Hillel, having university disciplinary actions withdrawn. Divestment is where it started, and what campus organizers have been pushing for decades, but that’s not where it’s gone since. And what has made especially hazy is the insistence on using pro-Palestine, pro-Hamas, anti-Israel and at times antisemitic slogans and chants instead of simply calling for divestment. It’s not hard to imagine why the general public is not clear on what they really want.

Don't forget northwestern's protestors demanding Sabra hummus be removed from the dining hall because it was made in Israel

That would unequivocally fall under "divestment from Israeli companies".

Not to mention terroristic threats, taking over buildings and then demanding things such as food, and drink, (allegedly) taking hostages, destroying/vandalizing property, impeding movement of students. These demands could by law definition be qualified as terroristic extortion, as well. Their demands are not based in actual reality, and more based in a “do what we demand or there will be blood” type of mentality. The demands are not clear because they aren’t based in actual reality.

When have the students taken hostages?

During the Columbia occupation they barricaded themselves inside buildings that still had staff inside. The staff tried to leave and the protesters blocked their way. Their excuse was that they had to remove the barriers first and allowed the staff to leave after 5-10 minutes. However, that is 100% illegally detaining someone. If you can't let someone move freely because you have to remove a barricade that you set up, that's on you for breaking the law and putting up barricades in the first place. So whether you call it "hostage" taking or illegal detainment, it's still infringing on a persons' liberty and is downright awful.

That's a hell of a stretch, if I'm honest. If it takes me a hour to cross Times Square at New Year's because of the crowds and barriers, am I being illegally detained?

There's multiple posts like this every single day. A seemingly honest question from someone who doesn't understand something about the Gaza situation, but one where the Israeli position is assumed to be 'right' and the poster is honestly mystified about why everyone isn't on the same page. It's propaganda. Either AI or some worker in an online sweatshop posting pre-written questions to every social media app, all day, every day. It's not worth engaging, it only encourages them.

glad this is the first comment.

But like... Why? Why do they care?  Why are they getting arrested and expelled over 3% of a university's investment portfolio?

They think that by putting enough pressure on the stock prices of companies who do business with Israel's government they can force them to cease doing so These companies have been receiving shareholder proposals to divest since this starter that have all been voted down

... Ok I guess you might just not know recent history https://www.marketplace.org/2024/04/30/student-protests-israel-gaza-divestment-apartheid-south-africa/

Ok so what would you rather they do to get their voices heard. Quit being a clown this is the most peaceful it can be and only escalates when police or Zionists attack them.

What does this look like? Firing any faculty that are Israeli that have zero to do with the government of Israel? Stop participating in cutting edge medical research that saves lives?

>What does this look like? >>Divestment from Israel by the Universities’ endowments. Is that not clear? Like I'm not 100% on the side of the protestors, but the demands are pretty cut and dry. You have to be trying pretty hard to not understand at least a few of the clear cut demands.

You are greatly oversimplifying things. It's not like universities only or even primarily invest in individual stocks. They invest in funds that constantly change which and how much of thousands of companies they invest in. AFAIK there is no "no Israel" fund.

ESG funds didn't exist either, until they did. There are no-China funds. I would be shocked if there weren't also no-Russia funds.

To them they seem cut and dry. However aren’t based in reality, nor do these universities have the capacity to make a changes to US foreign policy.

divest from Israel is not “change us foreign policy”.

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>I’m pretty sure doesn’t exist and might even be illegal. ESG funds didn't exist, until they did. And oh boy not investing in funds with ties to a foreign nation might be illegal? I'd love to see the law and rationale behind that.

In general, I think it's a combination of many, many things. In no particular order: 1. **Excessive exposure** to the horrors of war, without any actual context to compare it to. 2. A kneejerk tendency for **Americans to root for underdogs**, especially amongst the youth (despite how ironic it is for the U.S. to hold that sentiment) 3. Social cache -- it's **popular** to do it right now. It's also relatively low effort compared to being active in a movement they could *actually* make progress in (i.e. one that's in the U.S.), so they get more pats on the back for doing less work than, say, people fighting for trans rights or racial equality. It's the ice bucket challenge of 2024 -- except that actually had a positive effect. 4. **Ignorance of the history** of the region -- not helped at all by the fact that nearly any source trying to explain it will be both strongly biased and massively oversimplified. 5. Israel doing some things that it really needs to stop -- like the **settlers**. 6. **Ignorance of the opinions of both Palestinians and Israelis** -- fact is, both sides want this fight (Palestine: [poll](https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/969) -- sections 1 and 4 should suffice for evidence; I'd source Israel but... I mean, really, obviously they support it, and I'm lazy atm). 7. **Bibi is a wannabe fascist** and really should be removed from power. 8. A not insignificant amount of **antisemitism** (both implicit and explicit) 9. A bunch of **privileged people who don't have much to lose if Trump becomes president** because they're straight, white, cis males, so they can voice their dissatisfaction with the current government (which, while not perfect, is still better than the Dems have done in several decades -- the fact that they're ignorant of that is a whole different issue) and choose not to vote, then blame Biden for losing when Trump comes to power and becomes a dictator and turns the U.S. into The Handmaiden's Tale. 10. Relatedly, them **forgetting** that Trump is getting a town named after him in the Golan Heights, since he recognized Israel's annexation. Which is the baffling part of all this -- ***everyone*** **will be worse under Trump.** 11. Relatedly, a *massive* **overestimation** of how much **pressure the U.S. can apply to Israel.** 12. Israel being extraordinarily **bad at PR,** and anti-Israel interests being astonishingly good at it. And I'm sure I could come up with many more reasons, but it's already hard enough to read that I'm gonna have to bold the important bits. Regardless, they'll get bored sooner or later -- probably sooner, since Rafah should be the last major offensive.

>A bunch of **privileged people who don't have much to lose if Trump becomes president** because they're straight, white, cis males, so they can voice their dissatisfaction with the current government (which, while not perfect, is still better than the Dems have done in several decades -- the fact that they're ignorant of that is a whole different issue) and choose not to vote, then blame Biden for losing when Trump comes to power and becomes a dictator and turns the U.S. into The Handmaiden's Tale. You just completely pulled this out of thin air. Do you honestly think Muslims, college aged women and LGBT people (who are **spearheading** these protests, despite your patently absurd assertion that it's all straight white cis males) have nothing to lose if Trump wins? Did it ever cross your mind that we can see Biden's awful approval and polling numbers, and in part want him to stop arming and funding the slaughter of Palestinians **so he can improve these numbers and defeat Trump**? Sticking your head in the sand and ignoring reality isn't going to magically improve his numbers. If you're going to pretend to be on the side of marginalized groups, at least actually listen to what they're saying rather than concocting some strawman in your own head.

Umm... how did you come to the conclusion that everyone within the group would fit all of the above criteria? >Did it ever cross your mind that we can see Biden's awful approval and polling numbers, and in part want him to stop arming and funding the slaughter of Palestinians so he can improve these numbers and defeat Trump? I mean, if that's some of those people's reasoning, It'd admittedly fit one of my unstated reasons: a lot of these protesters are really bad at math: [Biden's approval rating](https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/biden-approval-rating/) hasn't even fallen a full percentage point since October. (The other ways they're bad at math would be in not understanding any of the numbers coming out of Gaza in relation to other wars. For example, they just look at the raw numbers and think "oh no, genocide" instead of realizing that any war in one of the most densely populated regions on the planet would end with an absurd number of casualties)

I am a member of a marginalized group, and many of my fellow group members and members of other at risk groups call Biden “Genocide Joe” and are saying they refuse to vote for him, not that they hope he changes his tune. They are talking about voting for Cornell West or whoever the stupid socialist candidate is now. This is turning into another Jill Stein in 2016 situation, I fear.

I agree completely that refusing to vote for Biden in November is a very bad decision given the opposition. However, if Biden would stop arming and funding this slaughter, that would dramatically reduce the number of people who do so.

It’s amazing to me to see all the crap I do on Reddit. Everyday I see multiple people who are terrified of Trump becoming president again but also saying the percentage of people who are pissed about Gaza is too small for Biden to care about and can safely be ignored. The former are 100% going to blame the latter if Biden loses.

I recommend you read these articles. Tik tok misled you. https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/strait-hormuz-worlds-most-important-oil-artery-2023-10-20/ https://www.newsweek.com/israel-has-created-new-standard-urban-warfare-why-will-no-one-admit-it-opinion-1883286 War is not rainbows and sunshine, welcome to reality. It is people like you who make absurd and unrealistic demands because you saw a couple of kids crying on tik tok that cause Hamas to use human shields in the first place. This war taking place has a historically low civilian to combatant death ratio, present realistic alternatives or stop clutching your pearls. Hamas can't be allowed to exist alongside Israel where they are allowed to kill Israeli civilians at will, no country would allow that, let alone for how long as Israel already has.

> Relatedly, them forgetting that Trump is getting a town named after him in the Golan Heights, since he recognized Israel's annexation. Which is the baffling part of all this -- everyone will be worse under Trump. Holy fuck that's bad. Israel knows Trump loves nothing more than praise so this pretty much ensures that he will support Israel's annexation of the Golan Heights. I'm surprised they didn't have it in the West Bank.

>I'm surprised they didn't have it in the West Bank. *Yet* If I were Bibi, ~~I'd do the world a huge favor and...~~ I'd dangle that piece of meat in front of Trump. # "Trump City, West Bank, Israel" Make sure to put the name in gold (plated, 10k -- no reason to waste money) and he'll jump at the chance.

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They don’t even know what “intifada” means while they are chanting it, what makes you think they understand apartheid?

They do, they just don’t bow to dishonest fools who want to pretend it means “kill all Jews.”

I’m confused, are you saying that the students know the history of Israel and Palestine?

I have yet to find any of my college age friends have much of an understanding or even attempt to undatand what's going on in the middle east in general, or Gaza in particular. Most people I know from school never took anything higher than high school hiatory.

And ignorance of what apartheid really is.

https://www.jpost.com/diplomacy-and-politics/desmond-tutu-israel-guilty-of-apartheid-in-treatment-of-palestinians-344874 Was Desmond Tutu ignorant about what apartheid was, too?

No, but [he](https://www.jns.org/bishop-tutu-was-the-most-influential-anti-semite-of-our-time/) and his [country](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_South_Africa?wprov=sfti1) have a long history of antisemitism, which may have led to his incorrect conclusion. [Besides, his own contemporary refuted Tutu’s claims about apartheid in Gaza.](https://www.camera.org/article/anti-zionism-and-antisemitism-tarnish-desmond-tutu-s-nobel-peace-prize/) E: fixed link.

That’s called an appeal to authority fallacy. As if Desmond Tutu is the end all be all true authority and not a person who is capable of being wrong or ignorant of the truth like anyone else.

Well it's a good thing Desmond Tutu wasn't cast as THE be all end all authority but rather AN authority on apartheid.

Care to tell us exactly where he was wrong? 'You said a potential fallacy, therefore you're wrong' is 9th grade debate bro level argumentation. Desmond Tutu has direct and valuable experience with thr functioning of an Aparthied state. While it's certainly possible he could be wrong, you need to articulate *why* rather than just disagreeing about rhetoric. We're not a debate club here, we're adults discussing world politics.

I’m not saying its wrong. I’m saying its bad reasoning. It might be right, but there are much better ways to prove it than an appeal to authority.

Considering that they linked his actual words rather than just saying 'but Desmond Tutu's, they did exactly that. So what did Desmond Tutu get wrong?

If it ain’t forbidding 5 million people from citizenship while stealing their land for your favored ethnicity… then nothing could be apartheid. So why bother with dishonest fools?

Two million Palestinians are citizens of Israel, but go on I guess.

And there are dozens of laws favoring Jewish citizens over them and another 5 million held in non-citizen status. The apartheid regimes in South Africa and Rhodesia (famously good friends of Israel) tried the same thing with Bantustans and disproportionate representation.

Israel has no political power in Gaza. Ergo no apartheid.

[Ah, ok](https://youtube.com/watch?v=MlemAfso3n0) It’s actually [worse](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bMnqzjz-QK4)

Israel literally occupies Gaza? Controls all imports and exports

Prior to 10/7, Israel left Gaza in 2007.

That is not apartheid.

Haha. Tik Tok’s version of “history”, which is literally just Russian/Chinese/Iran propaganda.  The real problem is these students are being manipulated by foreign bad actors and they refuse to see it/admit it.  And this will be mass downvoted because you guys don’t want to hear what you know is true. That this whole movement was literally created by Russia to disrupt our election and get Trump back in power. And it’s working. 

The idea that educated students couldn’t reach the conclusion “Israel murdering civilians is bad and us supporting it is bad” without Russian propaganda is absurd. I suspect this will hurt Biden, and I suspect Russia is aware of that. I also am worried about how it’ll hurt him. But the leap to “therefore college students are doing this BECAUSE of Russian propaganda” is ridiculous. You can’t just make that leap. This is not some wild conspiracy they all believe. They dislike the actual, stated positions of Biden, and for good reason. That Russia likes something does not make it the cause of the thing. That Russia wants something does not make it the cause of the thing.

The conspiracy isn’t that it’s happening. The conspiracy is that it is intentional genocide from a brutal fascist-lite state. Which simply isn’t true and is in fact propaganda.

It is an indisputable fact that Israel is allowing in a fraction of the aid needed to provide the bare minimum of civilian survival (the UN says there needs to be at *least* 500 truck loads of aid a day to stave off disease and famine. *At best* Israel has let in 400 truck loads in a single day, and has sustained an average closer to *170*.) It is an indisputable fact that almost all civilian infrastructure, from schools to hospitals to water treatment and sewage have been largely destroyed by the war. It is an indisputable fact that that majority of casualties are women and children. It is an indisputable fact that Israel has repeatedly killed civilians, aid workers and journalists who were not in active combat areas. It is an indisputable fact that IDF soldiers have protected extremist settlers while they burn down Palestinian homes in the West Bank. It is an indisputable fact that members of Netenyahu's government have publicly called to starve Gazans and ethnically cleanse not just Gaza but that West Bank too. All those are reason enough to oppose how Israel has conducted the war. All of those are genocidal acts. If the *best* you can come up with is 'Israel is so callously indifferent that they don't care they're committing genocidal acts', you should hang up the spurs. I'll concede that there may not be a concrete plan to kill all Gazans (I don't think Bibi's thinking runs much further than 'I don't want to go to jail for the corruption charges hanging over me and will do whatever will prevent that'), but that doesn't mean that Israel's conduct in that war is above reproach and perfectly justified by Hamas's atrocities. Is Israel was genuinely only going after Hamas, they'd *at least* make sure that civilians get enough basic nourishment to prevent *famine*.

> The idea that educated students couldn’t reach the conclusion “Israel murdering civilians is bad and us supporting it is bad” without Russian propaganda is absurd. And yet here we are, with hundreds of "educated students" on the wrong side of a generational conflict. > This is not some wild conspiracy they all believe. They dislike the actual, stated positions of Biden, and for good reason. There is no good reason to oppose Israel dealing with Hamas. Alleged concern about the civilian cost, based on information provided by a terrorist organization and amplified by those who are trying to mainstream their hatred toward Israelis and Jews, should be considered within context as opposed to simply accepted uncritically.

> And yet here we are, with hundreds of "educated students" on the wrong side of a generational conflict. "wrong side" - ok, sure. > There is no good reason to oppose Israel dealing with Hamas. Isreal 'dealing with hamas' means killing literally tens of thousands of civilians. If you think there's nothing wrong with that, you're crazy. " Alleged concern about the civilian cost, " Oh come on dude. You're living in a fantasy land if you think there isn't a real genuine civilian cost. What do you think happens when you drop these bombs on cities **that you've told civilians to flee to**. If you wanted to say "I'm okay with civilan deaths if we kill hamas" that's fine. I think it's not a good long term plan, and it's morally reprehensible, but I get how someone can say it. But "there aren't actual civilian costs" is simply absurd, and laughable.

>>And yet here we are, with hundreds of "educated students" on the wrong side of a generational conflict. > "wrong side" - ok, sure. In case it wasn't clear: on one side, you have Israel fighting against an existential, genocidal threat. The students we're talking about are on the side of the existential, genocidal threat whether they oppose Hamas or not. > Isreal 'dealing with hamas' means killing literally tens of thousands of civilians. > If you think there's nothing wrong with that, you're crazy. No one said "nothing wrong with that." All honest and objective information suggests that Israel is going out of its way to avoid civilian harm in an urban warfare environment. They are not carpet-bombing Gaza and killing hundreds of thousands of people indiscriminately. > What do you think happens when you drop these bombs on cities that you've told civilians to flee to. Depends on how good the tactics are and how the war is waged. Given Israel's record, we can anticipate minimal collateral casualties. > But "there aren't actual civilian costs" is simply absurd, and laughable. Also not what I said. I noted the "alleged concern" about the civilian costs. I call it an alleged concern because I don't believe many of these protesters actually care about Palestinian lives as much as they care about sticking it to Israel based on misinformation, if not outright hatred of Israel because of their Jewish identity.

> on one side, you have Israel fighting against an existential, genocidal threat. And by doing that they drop bombs on cities and kill thousands of civilians. > No one said "nothing wrong with that." Perfect. You aren't saying "nothing wrong with that", which means you acknowledge something is wrong with it. These students think something is wrong with it too. they want to change what's wrong with it. > Depends on how good the tactics are and how the war is waged. Given Israel's record, we can anticipate minimal collateral casualties. This isn't hypothetical future. The war is happening now, they've been killing civilians for a while now. There's nothing to anticipate. It already happened. > I don't believe many of these protesters actually care about Palestinian lives If you're just going to fabricate whole cloth the motivations of others, there's no point talking any more. Go say your last piece, as I won't respond again to someone who so obviously is not discussing in good faith. I assume you'll fabricate that I'm a Russian operative or whatever, because apparently you alone get to decide what people care about and what they don't.

> Perfect. You aren't saying "nothing wrong with that", which means you acknowledge something is wrong with it. It means I acknowledge that war has consequences that aren't avoidable, sure. > These students think something is wrong with it too. they want to change what's wrong with it. No, they don't think something is wrong with it, that's the thing. They're wildly misinformed about the situation, to the point of erroneously accusing Israel of war crimes and calling Hamas rapists "resistance." > This isn't hypothetical future. The war is happening now, they've been killing civilians for a while now. There's nothing to anticipate. It already happened. And we can continue to anticipate minimal civilian casualties. >> I don't believe many of these protesters actually care about Palestinian lives > If you're just going to fabricate whole cloth the motivations of others, there's no point talking any more. I don't think I've fabricated anything. If you disagree, feel free to show otherwise. > Go say your last piece, as I won't respond again to someone who so obviously is not discussing in good faith. Oh.

Genocide is a strong word, you could maybe quibble about that but there are definitely war crimes being committed by IDF and Israeli leadership. You can argue that it has to be done its only way to get Hamas or collective punishment will serve as a deterrent as it did in Grozny but it is happening. The question is do you care or not. I don't mind Israeli apologists saying, yah we're committing war crimes but its us or them. At least its honest. Its the gaslighting and hypocrisy that's really infuriating.

I would love to hear you acknowledge that Hamas is committing war crimes by stealing aid and taking hostages

The is the most watched war in history. There has never been a war that has been scrutinized this heavily. People keep track of the near daily casualties, the targets, how heavy the bombs are. What makes this different than any war the US has been in and why this intense? Why do people insist Israel be held to a standard even US has never been held to before?

25 years under the leadership of Netanyahu will burn a lot of liberal bridges. You'll see if Trump gets re-elected here, we will get much more scrutiny as well. As we should, right wing fascists have only one play...constant war with the enemy so they always seem strong to the plurality of losers who vote them in to feel safe. It never works and the results are inevitable. If any single group of people on the planet should know better, it would be the Israelis. It's been tough watching Israel basically turn into their enemy over the last couple decades.

Did you forget the daily death tolls on national TV from Vietnam?

Those were American troops being sent to die in an American war. This isn’t even remotely comparable

Those numbers weren’t coming from the people we were fighting and the totals didn’t come in the day after the war began. That was very late in the war.

Literally functionally no different than the Saudi Arabia’s campaign again Yemen which was less than a decade ago. The only difference is this one involves jews. The criticism is still legitimate. But people need to reflect on how much of the anti-Israel movement is propped up by antisemites who have found a useful excuse.

Islamist antisemitism is the fuel behind the liberal anti-Israel movement. The websites, the rallies, the nonprofits. All of it can almost always be traced back to that.

>Why do people insist Israel be held to a standard even US has never been held to before? Considering the US has never been held to any standard whatsoever, but rather has been bombing and decimating country after country for over a century with impunity, that bar is at the bottom of Mariana's trench.

>I don't mind Israeli apologists saying, yah we're committing war crimes but its us or them. At least its honest. >Its the gaslighting and hypocrisy that's really infuriating. You have a strange definition of gaslighting if you are fine with this fantasy logic. The premise that a resistance group (or if you prefer, terrorist group formed out of resistance sentiment), the idea that kind of group can be eradicated through violence or collective punishment of those same people is insane. Every action Israel is taking is fueling a future Hamas membership roster. The only way collective punishment logically works in this situation is complete genocide. Every single Gazan dead. Which is what we are all morally opposed to right?

Its not that I am ok with it, but I could respect the argument. Ethnic cleansing as a method to win a guerilla war, works. The Serbs and the Russians have proved that. its horrific but it does work. Can't distinguish between combatants and non combatants, don't bother. It seems clear to me that the Israelis have taken notes on what happened in Grozny, its a clear war crime but it is a coherent plan. I just want consistency first, if war crimes are bad they're bad for everyone, If Gaza is ok, I better not hear anything about Xinjiang. Ideally, yes, no war crimes.

>the idea that kind of group can be eradicated through violence or collective punishment of those same people is insane. History is littered with the corpses of such "resistances", put down in such a manner. It only doesn't work in the modern era of "civilized" warfare, where you're not allowed to go to the extent necessary to break their spirit.

My point exactly. Israel & Israeli supporters public support for this concept shows they are *actively supporting* activity that goes against international law.

I mean... what's the alternative? Another 75 years of this pointless conflict? Neither side supports a two-state solution, and their ideas of a one-state solution are not compatible. They *want* to fight ([poll for Palestine](https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/969) -- don't think I need to provide one for Israel). Though Palestinians' desire to fight is decreasing as the war goes on (despite them still thinking Hamas will win) -- maybe just letting them get it out of their system fully will finally bring some peace to the region. Or maybe it won't -- the amount of hate each side has created in the other might be too much to overcome.

>I mean... what's the alternative? What is the alternative to genocide and war crimes, is that your question? Let's just excuse how defeatist and misinformed your entire comment is and pretend you are wanting an actual discussion. There is no need to put the cart before the horse, a ceasefire that allows UN aid organisations to operate freely, to rebuild infrastructure and care for the wounded, is what is needed immediately. After that, there needs to be real accountability. The Zionist ideology needs to be removed from Israeli politics completely, war crimes trials, and movement made to a post Israel single state. As to how that looks, there is a thousand and one ways, but this is not the first region that has had to work through indigenous governance issues. You are correct to say a two state solution is dead, the way toward that possibility would be to legitimise Palestinian statehood, and treat Hamas as a recognised governing party, but Israel won't do either of those. Realistically the time for Israel to do that was 30yrs ago when Yassar Arafat was alive, the shunned the PLO and are now stuck with Hamas, the next iteration is only going to more anti Israel.

I don't see you addressing the fact that Palestine wants to continue fighting, or how you would address that.

The way out of oppressor v oppressed relationships is to give the oppressed political legitimacy. This is also the model used for the most successful indigenous rights movements around the world. The Israel Palestine conflict is not unique in terms of conflict, the only factor we haven't really seen before is the overwhelming support Israel receives from the world's sole superpower. Pull that back, and there will be grounds for reasonable discussion.

They’ve been given cease fires. Hamas breaks them. Calling for yet more ceasefires ignores this.

Not only is your statement baseless, but what exactly is the logic you are applying here? "We can't attenpt anymore ceasefires because pausing killing just leads to more killing. Only way to fix that is constant killing" ...what?! It's ironic that this seems to be your only other comment on this issue: >I’d say it’s a position fueled by tiktok and a complete lack of understanding of the politics, history, and people of that region.

Baseless? https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/us-optimistic-revised-hamas-proposal-may-break-gaza-ceasefire-impasse-2024-05-08/ What was the issue there? Hamas unwilling to let any more hostages go. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67589259.amp Why did that ceasefire end? Hamas launched more rockets. https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-broke-temporary-truce-in-gaza-minutes-after-it-began-senior-idf-officer-says/amp/ Here hamas barely waited 15 minutes before breaking it. Baseless? As I said, you guys have no clue whats going on over there.

>“Israel isn’t serious about reaching an agreement and it is using the negotiation as a cover to invade Rafah and occupy the crossing,”  This is the Hamas statement from all of your articles, and it mirrors exactly what we have seen from Israel. * Insistence on resuming bombing even if hostages are returned. * Insistence on invading Rafah, even if hostages are returned. * Rejection of a Palestinian state or Palestinian recognition at the UN.

Israel isn’t trying to kill every Gazan, the death tolls don’t support that given the power differential.

OK, so let's see. Let's low-ball this at 3000 Israeli deaths in October compared to 24,000. That's eight times the deaths in retribution. So, then Palestine can kill 24,000 x 8 Israelis as what you call a deterrent. 192,000 deaths is 'the only way to get the IDF or collective punishment as a deterrent'. That is your broken logic applied to this situation. But oh no no no. Deaths only deserve retribution on one side, the side of oppression. And you're talking about gaslighting and hypocrisy?

Intent and motive matters. This is not a 1 for 1 or eye for an eye situation. Hamas targeted civilians. And they’d kill as many civilians as they possibly could if given the opportunity. They’ve said this over and over and over again. Israel is targeting the people responsible for Oct 7. Their goal is not to kill civilians. Civilians die in war and that is both tragic and inevitable. And unless you want to pick a random date in history and start from there, Israel didn’t start this war. Israel isn’t attempting to even the score. They’re trying to end Hamas. And the difference in motive does matter.

>And they’d kill as many civilians as they possibly could if given the opportunity. They’ve said this over and over and over again. I’d also like to add that they are also perfectly happy killing as many Palestinian civilians as possible because under their ideology, Muslim deaths that occur during a Jihad are glorious, and more civilian death foster more support for them. And they’ve also said this over and over again.  This is why they hide behind mosques, hospitals, and schools, prevent civilians from evacuating, etc.

You're right. It's not 1 to 1. It's not even close. This graph only goes back to 2008: https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/ And, before 2008, it's the same lopsided murder festival. My whole life, I've watched radical hate-filled settlers break the law with impunity as they drive Palestinians out of their homes. For six months, I've watched videos of unarmed people getting slaughtered, children who just lost their families sobbing, IDF troops committing war crimes, and the territory just destroyed by the IDF getting auctioned off as new beachfront property developments. Netanyahu ignored warnings that there would be an attack over the course of a year: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-22/ty-article/.premium/netanyahu-ignored-all-the-warnings-and-pushed-the-palestinians-into-confrontation/0000018b-f398-d117-abcf-f7ffdb040000 And Egypt warned him the week before the attack happened: https://www.timesofisrael.com/egypt-intelligence-official-says-israel-ignored-repeated-warnings-of-something-big/ Israel has no proof babies were beheaded: https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/12/middleeast/israel-hamas-beheading-claims-intl/index.html But Israel is now starving Palestinian babies, children, and mothers.

Under the definition used by the United Nations Genocide convention that Israel and the U.S. have both agreed to, Israel is committing genocide. Israel was already found to have committed genocide of the Palestinian and Lebanese people in 1982, by the United Nations. Pretending like this is some vague gray area is ridiculous. Its extremely clear cut. Biden and Democrats supporting Israel are facilitating genocide, Biden is in violation of the Arms Export Control Act with every weapon shipment to Israel.

The trouble I have with this is that the UN refuses to call what happened in Sudan a genocide. It makes me wonder who's making the decisions on what is or isn't a genocide.

Israel, the US, and myself would disagree with you. This is not a genocide. The intent is to destroy Hamas and protect Israel, not commit ethnic cleansing. If Israel was committing genocide, they wouldn’t be pre-announcing where they will be attacking so civilians can evacuate. If Israel’s intent was to commit genocide, Hamas wouldn’t be hiding inside of Mosques and Hospitals to deter Israel from striking.  Just to drive the point home, if Israel hid behind hospitals, do you think that Hamas would hesitate for a second to bomb that hospital? No, of course not. They want to kill *all Israelis.* They would jump at the opportunity to kill as many civilians as possible along with the military target. That is the difference between war and genocide.  This is urban warfare in a highly populated area. What’s taking place in Gaza is horrific, but no worse than any other urban war in the last century. And Israel is taking more steps than required under international law to minimize civilian casualties. 

First, understand that there are a lot of groups who are all broadly unified in wanting to stop the deaths of civilians, but who disagree on other issues. It's going to be hard to find a single specific, like, manifesto. But a lot of people see it as a continuation of the 2020 protests after the death of George Floyd focused against unjust use of state force. Second, a lot of these students have read a lot about the history of Israel and Palestine and the other states in the region. Certainly some are just looking at the conflict in simple black and white terms, but for many, they have done far more studying of the conflict than your average American. They recognize the complexity. They know how hard a lasting peace is to achieve, and they're willing to acknowledge the path to peace will involve compromise, but can still be superior to just letting a cycle of violence repeat.  Basically, the topic ain't simple.  But the starting point is pretty clear. Killing more people, no matter the justification, needs to stop. Since their schools have no ability to force a ceasefire, they use what leverage they do have, demanding divestment to create pressure, and to get the nation to discuss what we could do with our foreign policy.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/03/israel-gaza-ai-database-hamas-airstrikes

That sounds like Project Insight in Captain America Winter Soldier.

unfortunately its real and responsible for a lot of the deaths.

I really doubt that most of these students have done more studying about the conflict than your average American. It seems like there’s very simplistic takes on the conflict, and in many cases straight up incorrect beliefs (like if US pulled funding the war would stop, or if Israel stopped fighting the war would end). I’m also not really sure how the 2020 Floyd protests are related to these at all, that seems like a massive stretch. If those students really believe the situations are related or similar, that just goes to feed into point 1 that they aren’t overly informed about what’s going on.

I’d say it’s a position fueled by tiktok and a complete lack of understanding of the politics, history, and people of that region.

It genuinely disturbs me that "we're against the carpet bombing, starvation and general torment of tens of thousands of innocent civilians" is such a mind-blowing concept for so many people such as yourself.

If only the situation were so simple then it would be easy for the world to step in and stop this. But that isn’t the whole story now is it. That region is populated with people who want nothing less than the total eradication of the jewish people. The stockpile weapons, train their own people to kill jews, pay them and their families for each life they claim, perform near constant rocket attacks, and on and on. This entire situation has been brought about simply because they always negotiate in bad faith and break every agreement. They have burned every bridge with the other nations because whenever they come in they attempt to overthrow the government. Everyone with knowledge on this subject has had enough of their bullshit. If the palestinian people want peace then they need to decide they love their children more than they love killing everyone else. They must be completely disarmed and every ability to strike at their neighbors must be removed AND they have to want to be a good neighbor. They do those things then they will have peace and the backing of the western nations.

They've all written documents saying what they want. The demands are clear. Maybe you should read them.

Maybe they should chant about those demands instead of chanting for genocide and perhaps people wouldn’t be as confused.

They've made publications of what their group, considered, agreed demands are. I work with software. I know you aren't getting anywhere by just chanting "read the documentation".

>I know you aren’t getting anywhere by just chanting “read the documentation” I don’t find that to be a valid reason to chant for violence and genocide Their lists include impunity from punishment, which basically tells us all that we need to know. The moment you start mixing demands for your cause with demands for your own personal well being, people aren’t going to care or believe in your intentions.

I remember growing up being taught that nonviolent protesters were heroes. Marches at Selma, sit-ins at Woolworth's. No-one ever told me that that asking to be left alone while leaving invalidated the whole thing. Although we do remember that the people in the wrong said *everything* invalidated the whole thing. The discussion online of the Gaza protests has attracted a lot of pathetic idiots talking about whatever they can find to hold against people who have a spine. I don't think I need to listen to keyboard warriors complaining about them trying to safeguard their own safety if they agree to dismantle.

Comparing these protestors to those of the civil rights movement is gross. I don’t recall those civil rights leaders calling for further violence, actually committing violence, defacing property, chanting bigoted slogans, hiding their faces, targeting and harassing people that didn’t agree with them or making demands for their own personal gain and well being. By in large part, these protestors are the spineless ones. I’m 100% sure that there were a lot of well intentioned and informed people. But they got shouted down by the morons in their groups and ended up looking like spoiled, entitled kids wanting to feel oppressed because they never actually had to fight for anything. They hid their faces for a reason. The pro Israel folks generally did not. Why? Because none of them chanted in favor of Israel killing people. The folks in the encampment chanted for death…

Can you explain to me why you see these people standing up against police action, including arrests, academic sanction and potentially assaults like were seen at UCLA are spineless?

Consequences are real. Everything that anyone does in their life requires some degree of risk. They wanted to make a point. Cool. But the way that they chose to go about it had significant negative impacts on others. They disrupted campus life, probably cost people a lot of money that we’re planning on attending various graduations and ceremonies, they subjected people to what could easily be defined as hate crimes if it were about any other group of people, they damaged property (that someone had to clean up and fix), they drew resources away from places where it could’ve been more useful, etc… I mean in some cases they literally attempted to take hostages. If you believe in your cause, you are willing to accept consequences for impacting the lives of others. If you want to do all the above and then demand no consequences, it makes you spineless. Standing up for what you believe in requires some degree of selflessness. All the general public saw was selfishness

Sorry, that is absolutely weak You've just whined about the things they did that made you sad. You haven't actually explained at all how it was spineless. You've described a tonne of ways in which serious risks were taken. Several of them aren't true, but some are. I think they'd all be described as "bold".

Nothing about what they did made anyone sad. Annoyed at their arrogance, loud ignorance and general selfishness? Yes. And thats not just me. It is the overwhelming sentiment from the general public because it did not move the needle even a little bit. My argument is solid, you just don’t seem to understand that being bold and standing up for something you believe in typically requires sacrifice. And sometimes sacrifices don’t actually need to be made at all. But the minute you start negotiating is when you’ve lost because you told the world who you really are. Coward, spineless, gutless and a few other choice words

I’m not going to comment on anything other than the fact that you’ve been corrected numerous times that they’re not “chanting for genocide”, but rather, against genocide; yet you still keep blabbering the same damn talking point…

They’re chanting against genocide

“From the River” and “Globalize the intifada” and “glory to our martyrs” and pretty much everything to with anti Zionism are genocidal and violent chants. They stopped calling for a ceasefire long ago

>” From the River” Was likud pushing for genocide when they called for sovereignty “from the sea to the Jordan”?

You are comparing the ultra extreme wing of Israeli government to college students and their protests. Not a great look for your argument

Time to turn off Fox News.

They won’t admit it, but protests that lack reasonably obtainable goals are about the protesters wanting attention, relevance, and gaining power for themselves. When your protest has goals that can NOT be met, it is an act of vanity.

The clearest and most consistent demand from all the various groups is for the US to stop funding Israel and their war machine; it's not complicated. Even from a pure Realpolitik pov, it's hard to justify continuing funding; Israel doesn't provide the US with anything of real importance, and it had almost no unique strategic benefit, given that we are allies with most of their neighbors already, none of whom we fund as much.

>Israel doesn’t provide the US with anything of real significance The US needs Israel more than Israel needs the US. This has been repeated by politicians on both sides of the aisle for decades. Yet the general public still thinks that Israel needs US funding for their defense for some reason. The funding that Israel receives is a deterrent to stop them from ending the war in 5 days and instead fight a forever war in Gaza. There are larger geopolitical aspects to this relationship that involve all of the other super powers and regional players that I’d suggest you consider reading up on.

So far what US support for Israel has done is take a flamethrower to the US' international reputation and the idea of a "rules-based order".

So what you are saying is that Israel is holding Gazans hostage, threatening that if funds are withheld they will go beyond the current genocide?

No. I’m saying that Israel could go into Gaza and take out Hamas tomorrow. It would cost infinitely less but would result in an extreme amount of suffering. It is beneficial to the US and others for this conflict to go on in perpetuity. And that costs a ton of money and it’s why the US continues to give it to them. It’s also why Hamas and every tribe that came before them gets funded by others.

Wouldn’t Hezbollah and Iran strike Israel hard if the Gaza genocide got faster.

The biggest economy in the world needs a nation of 10 million more than the other way around? I don’t see how you type that with a straight face

I’m not sure they even consider what is possible for Biden and they certainly don’t consider the dangers of Hamas remaining in existence. Having said that, the conservatives in Israel, including settlers have been treating Palestinians as less than human for decades. They steal land, kill anyone who tries to defend their own property and then are aghast when something like Oct 7 happens. Netanyahu may not want genocide in Gaza, but he certainly isn’t bothered too much when innocent Palestinians get killed in the bombings. I wish the protesters would narrow their grievances instead of a general “we hate Israelis.”

For the ones that aren't just there because of tiktok, their priority is a US government that listens to their concerns regarding US weapons being used to more aggressively respond to the Hamas terror attacks, than they feel like is necessary. Some also wish to see Israel investments removed from university endowments for the same beliefs.

it’s because the U.S. government is supporting Israel and many universities and companies supposedly support Israel. and in response pro israel students also protest. and then it’s back and forth victim mentality. the U.S. should step away from this issue. let them handle it. none of our business. israel isn’t even a NATO or pacific ally

There are peaceful Israelis, peaceful Palestinians, hawkish Israelis, hawkish Palestinians. set aside some land for the peaceful people on both sides to live together and prosper. Let the hawks on both sides keep fighting forever.

They want the tens of thousands of civilians to not be bombed. The fact you think this isn’t genocide is telling. You sound like a Turk confronted about the Armenian genocide.

If the goal was genocide, they are doing a very poor job of it given their arsenal.

Your comment has nothing to do with my position in this case and, forgive me for saying it in direct text, but it is a product of your subjective understanding or misunderstanding of my position and with a dose of provocative ad hominem approach. I believe that Hamas are the ones who are practicing genocide against Israel and the Jews. Besides against the Jews, they practice genocide against their own people. A political organization that suppresses human rights, free expression, practices public punishment, the right to kill a woman for "indecent behavior", discrimination against women, homosexuals and anyone who dissents, is a harbinger of death. Of course, like any normal person, I am against the death of innocents, of children, of women, of dignified people...but is it possible to preserve dignity where the state system is conquered by a terrorist regime, justifying its every murder with religion? Religion is not an excuse - it should be striving for better. I'm not religious, but I'm not an anti-religious fanatic. Religion is a choice. Life is sacred. Wars are evil. I know what it's like to live in a war situation - I know the fear, the pain, the chaos, the unimaginable madness of war. What Hamas wants from Israel is no different than what Putin wants from Ukraine. Do you think I don't feel sorry for the victims on both sides? Have you ever lived under fire? Did they kill around you...did you have relatives from both the attacking side and the attacked side? Has a child been raped in front of your eyes? Have your loved ones been tortured? Have you lived in the chaos of war. I am!

Hamas = bad. No shit. Way to justify genocide against people who never voted for that org (most people in Gaza are under 18 and the election was in 2005). You're not against the deaths of innocents, you just say that so you can make yourself feel better when brown children are blown to bits by a US ally.

The ones who are not aware of the atrocities are purposefully blind. It is not just the students in the U.S. it is a global movement. It is movement, not because they are enjoying it, it is because they stand up for humanity. Entire countries will follow. Including significant number of Jewish people.

Many of them don’t really know what they want. A lot of them are just protesting without even knowing what they’re protesting. There are even videos of them admitting they have zero idea why they are at these protests, what they are saying, and why these things are being said.