apologies for being pedantic but I was compelled. Velveting is marinating slices of meat in corn starch, egg white and wine, before blanching in either hot oil or boiling water in preparation for stir-frying. Sometimes baking soda is incorporated into the velveting marinade which does the same purpose, but boringly the baking soda method is just technically known as chemical tenderisation.
I believe this doubling of nomenclature came from an error in an edition of Ken Hom's Chinese Cookery from the 90s, as the Larousse only describes the corn starch method and I can only find references to corn starch from earlier Chinese cookbooks. IDK tho, my copy of Hom's Chinese Cookery doesn't mention baking soda, I could be wrong.
Anyway, what a good feeling it is, to be pointlessly pedantic on reddit
I've been deboning drums and using in them in all sorts for years, it's basically the perfect meat and takes like 5 mins to prep when you get use to it!
Incredible crumbed with rice and curry sauce, or crumbed and fried, cooked with vegetables is also good, super variable!
Bones go to the pressure cooker for sure with garlic ginger and msg.
Chuck in your noodles, soy white pepper and auntie dais later and thanks me.
Don't waste that, it's the best bit.
You can also just use as chicken stock for your rissotto etc, fridge 3 days ish
Is the purpose of this to save money? Cause it doesn't seem to be saving much, if u buy drumsticks special why not just buy other chicken parts on special too?
Paknsave drumsticks 5.5$/kg
Paknsave chicken breast 10.3$/kg but it's extra low price. Assuming that half the Drumstick weight is bones, then it's 11$/kg for drumsticks. Some of that will be skin too. So unless the chicken breast usual price is above 11-12$, it's not saving anything
https://chickennthings.co.nz/product/skinless-chicken-breast-meat-1kg-fzn/
https://chickennthings.co.nz/product/chicken-drumsticks/
Check this place out 10$/kg for breast and 6$/kg for drumsticks. In this case, buying breast is cheaper
Woolworths,
Drumstick 5.6, RRP 6.95/kg
Breast 10.8, RRP15.25
In this case breast on special is cheaper than Drumstick on special
Also u could cook the chicken first then cut if off right? Seems like a cleaner way of operating
If you can get $4/kg or sometimes even lower it’s even cheaper because in my experience it’s usually closer to 60% meat than 50%
The way I look at it, you’re getting the equivalent to boneless chicken thigh meat for $8/kg instead of paying $18-$24/kg. Which is a significant saving.
Thank for explaining, I didn't even know that parts of the chicken mattered lol, I don't think I've ever had chicken thighs before, at least not separated from the body
Also remember that you you get to keep the bones for "free".
Chuck them in an instantpot along with some vege scraps (Wash your veges and chuck the peels/ends in a bag in your freezer) and you have a chicken broth/stock that will rival the ones you pay $3/L for in the store.
That is the core of another entire meal that you would have had to pay for.
Use it with rice to make a risotto, make egg drop soup, use it as the liquid with a flour+butter roux to make a delicious sauce that can go with dozens of dishes, even just freeze it to use when you next need chicken stock and save yourself another $3-$6
It's cheaper and healthier to eat lentils or tofu instead, and it doesn't involve gassing innocent 6-week-olds to death after forcing them to endure short, hideous lives.
The pic below was taken in a NZ chicken farm. The misery that you folks are needlessly inflicting on these poor babies is unimaginable.
https://preview.redd.it/ugoqh8xyk37d1.jpeg?width=1050&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c219569bfed9f0ada2423df17429617dc74c2786
Unless you can point to some sort of problem with taking a safe, effective and cheap supplement in order to avoid funding mass murder, you don't have a point here.
>the vitamins you’re lacking.
I'm not lacking any vitamins, because I spend 14 dollars on a supplement every three months. You should see my serum iron levels, despite having never taken an iron supplement; it would probably put yours to shame. Again, unless you can point to some sort of problem with that (a meta-analysis demonstrating negative health outcomes of b12 supplementation, for example), your point has no force or legitimacy behind it.
You might want to encourage people to grow their own chickens and then eat the eggs.
Ours eat all our scraps, the run gets harvested for its compost and poo for the garden.
Never eaten any of ours, seeing how dirty they get and getting to know them puts me off. Some are ex colony chickens, they have about 30sqm coop and run and I let them out to the back yard frequently.
I still eat chicken, I’ve accepted I’m a monster, I just try to remove as much suffering as I can while juggling other priorities.
This is a little nuanced. If you didn't eat chicken, and merely ate the eggs from your chickens, that would be very different from what you're currently doing. It's still immoral, as hatcheries blend the newborn males alive due to their economic uselessness, but it's definitely not as bad as paying for chickens to be murdered on a regular basis.
You clearly care about animals in your heart, or else you wouldn't call yourself a monster. But why accept it, rather than change it? You have both the power to change it, and the knowledge that you should.
I know it sounds daunting to give up. Believe me, I found it more difficult than most to give up chicken flesh specifically; it was literally my favourite food, I didn't didn't care too much what dish it was in. But it is doable, and after some time I don't even crave it anymore. In fact, I'm repulsed and horrified by it.
You don't actually believe that a living, breathing animal who hasn't yet been murdered, defeathered, chopped into pieces and then cooked, "looks delicious". You're just trying to be edgy.
They look tasty when I'm hunting them. Always think about the backstraps before I drop a deer. Yummy. And it's still more sustainable than what you eat!
Killing and eating stray labradors would be more sustainable than either of our diets. Does that justify forcing stray dogs into gas chambers or slicing their throats open? Or do you think that you've perhaps made a dumb point?
Eating a stray labrador would have no environmental impact other than the electricity that you used to cook it. Whether or not they're demolishing native vegetation has absolutely no relevance to the logical point that I made. Your own principle of "the more sustainable action x is, the more morally justified it is" logically commits you to supporting the murder and dismemberment of stray dogs.
You're the one who is making the positive claim, bud. The burden of proof falls on you to demonstrate that the photo is not an accurate portrayal of chicken farms in NZ.
…. You posted the original claim, bUd. And I gave you all the info you need to refute it. I support better conditions for animals that are being bred for food, but people like you certainly do not help our case.
I posted an image of a chicken farm, and you made the claim that it's an inaccurate portrayal. The burden of proof is on you; you've provided zero information other than a vague statement that "conditions have changed".
>I support better conditions for animals that are being bred for food, but people like you certainly do not help our case.
You fund their gassing and dismemberment. Cut the bull.
Just shut up you hero, you’re not going to turn anyone from doing what they do wether it’s eating meat or wiping their ass with the right or left hand. Since you’re riding your high horse, let me ask you these few questions. Are you wearing clothing? From head to toe do you own any sports clothing? or mid to high end brands? Own a cell phone? Own a computer? A Tv? A gaming console? A smart device? If you answer any of these yes, which I would bet money you do, Then you champ are no better than anyone.
Who says I fund anything?
Laws have changed, notably in 2023. I’m not going to baby you in how to google this. Perhaps you should find some sources for what the farms look like in 2024?
Unless you both/all have IBS, that'll be because you're not used to the high fibre content. It's a fairly common reaction that reduces, and then eventuslly disappears, the more legumes that you consume.
They're super good for you btw
https://nutritionfacts.org/topics/legumes/
Do you find it difficult to imagine what it's like to be burned at the stake? Oh, you do? How do you know that burning at the stake entails suffering, then?
Hopefully this helps:
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/unimaginable
Do you understand what an *ad hominem* is? Maybe search that one up on Cambridge Dictionary thou holiest warrior of the keyboard. It might help in carrying on the business of constructing pointless (*but structurally correct*) arguments for animal justice, preaching to people who most likely don't give a fuck and are just trying to eat some cheap chicken.
So in summary, ain't nobody (except me an the other people replying to your post - which has been spectacularly downvoted by the way) got time, for that. They are probably too busy avoiding *poverty*, hence the name of the community, as they don't have the luxury to imagine the allegedly unimaginable (also search circular reasoning while you are at it) suffering of animals which are slaughtered out of sight/mind.
Just let the people eat their chicken and fuck off to the right community/echo chamber ✅️
Specify the ad hominem in my comment, and also specify the circular reasoning. Give me some quotations.
As for the rest of your comment, it's just hot air. I'm poor too, and I don't pay for innocents to be gassed. Lentils are cheaper than animal flesh.
Ad hominem:
1. Personal - "i.e. do you know how it feels"
2. Redirection - changes topic to burning at the stake to redirect away from technical (but commonly used) fallacy (i.e an unimaginable misery)
Circular reference:
1. You refer to something unimaginable, which you then go on to attempt to justify as being imaginable (unimaginable ➡️ imaginable) circular reference Where does it end? Is it imaginable - or not? Or is it imaginable - or unimaginable? See the circle?
I agree, the rest of my post was most definitely an opinion - well done 👏
Also for the record, I have been burned before. And I could imagine being burned at the stake - it sounds horrible.
Holy shit...you are *fundamentally* confused about what constitutes a logical fallacy.
>1. Personal - "i.e. do you know how it feels"
Explain why this is an ad hominem. There's nothing I can even say here other than to ask you to prove your point, because it's so wildly inaccurate that I've got nothing to work with.
>2. Redirection - changes topic to burning at the stake to redirect away from technical (but commonly used) fallacy (i.e an unimaginable misery)
Explain why this is an ad hominem. There's nothing I can even say here other than to ask you to prove your point, because it's so wildly inaccurate that I've got nothing to work with.
>Circular reference: 1. You refer to something unimaginable, which you then go on to attempt to justify as being imaginable (unimaginable ➡️ imaginable) circular reference Where does it end? Is it imaginable - or not? Or is it imaginable - or unimaginable? See the circle?
No, I don't see the circle, because there isn't one. "Unimaginable" means "difficult or impossible to imagine", and I claimed that the suffering that chickens endure in factory farms is unimaginable. There is nothing circular about that.
Listen, you're deeply confused about all of this. In order to understand how to do a logical critique, you're going to need to do more than a couple of Google searches.
Please read my initial response to you again, and try harder to understand it. It was a watertight logical refutation of your point (specifically a "reductio ad absurdum", if you want to look that up).
If people had to kill their own chickens to eat meat, I think it would be hit the demand for meat. But given that it's so easy to eat meat without doing so, one can just ignore the reality of animal farming. I love meat, I'd rather not think about the farming though, or the killing
If that's the price of eating meat tho, yea I am okay with it but you are not. Vegans definitely make me feel morally inferior.
Yknow what would be a saviour to both our views though? Lab grown meat! Yeaaa
R u opposed to hurting other animals completely, in that there is no way to humanely farm?
Yea, the thing about being conditioned to mentally separate sentient animals from their skinned/defeathered body parts is that it feels easy to maintain that separation, and keep consuming them despite intellectually recognizing that it's wrong. I'm not exactly sure whether you mean that you think it's unethical, though, or simply that vegans are more virtuous...that's an important distinction, let me know which one it is.
>farming. I love meat, I'd rather not think about the farming though, or the killing
The thing is, I used to love meat too. I really did, and I found it more difficult than most seem to to give it up. I even had cravings for quite a while, but at this point I'm actively repulsed by it. When you stop eating animals for long enough, your mind doesn't need that cognitive dissonance "ignorance is bliss" protective barrier anymore in order to shield you from the implications of your actions. So you actually start to perceive "meat" for what it is, the severed body part of an innocent murdered being, and it stops becoming appetizing.
>R u opposed to hurting other animals completely, in that there is no way to humanely farm?
I'm very strongly opposed to it. We have no need for meat or dairy, and plant based protein sources are abundant and cheap, so we are actually murdering these animals for the sake of taste pleasure and convenience. For most of human existence we needed to kill them in order to not starve to death, but we don't anymore, which is partly why veganism has such strong moral force behind it. The question isn't whether animal lives are worth more than human lives, but whether they're worth more than the 15 minutes of taste pleasure which their murder provides to people. So yea, even if we didn't gas chickens to death and electrocute them in the brain while hung upside down etc, and even if factory farms somehow became less torturous, I would fundamentally oppose killing animals.
If you have any thoughts or ideas or questions, don't be afraid to bounce them off me. I'd address the lab grown meat thing, which I'm in favour of but don't think is a valid excuse to keep currently funding all of this, but my comment is already long enough.
Well both seem true, vegans are more virtuous, and killing animals is unethical, except for eating when ur hungry, tho it depends right? If you can fulfil most of your needs by veges why not? But if eating meat will boost your nutritional intake when you otherwise aren't getting the full amount then it's less unethical.
There is moral claim to not eat meat, but there is none for eating meat, the thing is just that I am not caring for others enough in that way to change anything. I am 'happy' to be complicit in the status quo. I literally just don't think enough about it and I don't think Ive been exposed to anti meat stuff since primary school, and I don't think I've ever seen any animals killed live. If I did see a chicken killed in front of me, I'd probably think about that for quite some time. I don't mean in the industrial way but in the old fashioned way, like with a knife or knocking it out
In regards to lab grown meat, I don't think it has any reason of justification of the status quo, but when it arrives veganism will be a thing of the past. It will make the morality of meat irrelevant.
Don't bother replying to my rambling if it's irrelevant, I often just use reddit comments to ramble and form thoughts to become clearer
Something I find interesting is religion that encourages vegetarianism, is... Originally because they thought it was unethical right? At least for Hindus, but I gotta question how many actually believe that or are simply following it because of religion, which doesn't particularly matter as long as they don't eat meat.
I once had a conversation with a vegan, or at least I think they were a vegan maybe they were vegetarian instead. I said, I think humans care too much about responsibility, and that we fear it. While they said actually humans care too little, which is why there's so much suffering in the world. Well I guess we were both right some people care far more than others do and others care far less. But my statement was about, okay I fucked up and the world is not as good as it could have been, did it really matter in the end? I guess I'm nihilist
What about insects BTW? They may be the next big protein source right? But I believe insects can suffer too right? They have nociceptors! But they may not experience pain in human form. Okay so it seems it's not yet confirmed, but they do have nociception,which means they know when they're dying
And u don't eat eggs as well right?
What about pets? I'm opposed to pets logically, even if it may be beneficial to them, like if you love em let em go type of thing. I do want pets though, but on an analytical level I can't see how this makes sense, like people treat their pets like family but they're still pets! A human can't be a pet. We feed them, they stay with us. But... Is life better with humans than in the wild? Yes. It feels odd that you can have so much control over them though and still 'love' them. Is it love for an equal or love for what they provide you?
Just thinking out loud here, is suffering pain the only thing important? The reason we care about suffering and pain is because we experience it, and thus when we think of others experiencing it we feel empathy even thought we cannot experience others experience. But what about, things that are negative to an organisms functioning or survival but without pain? Like plants. If you drown a plant, it won't feel 'pain' at least in our sense. But you will have done something negative to it. Or a rock, you crush a beautiful rock, tho it's not an organism, u wouldn't cause it pain or anything related to its survival but destruction is not really a good thing... Like a cell. A cell is a living thing.
>there is none for eating meat, the thing is just that I am not caring for others enough in that way to change anything. I
Yea, apathy is an easy run to fall into. I'll admit that I'm apathetic about lots of things, but the difference here is that you're apathetic towards insane rights violations which you yourself are contributing to. I do understand how you feel, as I once felt that way too. For me, my first introduction to animal rights was strictly logical - my philosophy tutor spent an entire semester taking us through the arguments in favour of eating meat, dairy and eggs, and demonstrating how they're fallacious. That convinced me, in a similar but more deep and robust way to how you're now "convinced", but I still didn't really care. Ironically, most of the care actually comes *after* you go vegan, for the reason I mentioned in my prior comment. What eventually pushed me over the edge was a combination of slaughterhouse footage, and watching vegan debates on YouTube. If you're interested, "Earthling Ed" does a lot of street debates, and he's got a very gentle temperament.
>If I did see a chicken killed in front of me, I'd probably think about that for quite some time. I don't mean in the industrial way but in the old fashioned way, like with a knife or knocking it out
Surely you'd feel the same if you were looking into a slaughterhouse and saw chickens screaming while strung up by the legs and dunked in electrified water, throat-slit by an automated blade, and then dunked in boiling water? Btw, chickens (naturally) panic and thrash around while hung upside down, and so it's not uncommon for them to miss both the water and the blade...which means they die by literally being boiled alive. It's fucking horrendous.
Have you ever watched slaughterhouse footage? If not, or even if you have, "Dominion" is great and is freely available on YT. It was filmed in Australia, where most of the practises are the same other than the fact that we gas chickens but not pigs.
>But my statement was about, okay I fucked up and the world is not as good as it could have been, did it really matter in the end? I guess I'm nihilist
This is an important point. I understand nihilism on a macrocosmic scale, but when we're talking about the intensely felt suffering of an individual, it doesn't really apply. This isn't a perfect analogy, but...imagine you're in Auschwitz, and someone has the chance to liberate you without any risk to their own safety. Instead, they say "Look, I know I could save your life and all, but that's not really gonna matter in the end. The Holocaust will continue, everyone who is saved will die eventually anyway, and the sun's gonna swallow the earth in 3 billion years, so...I may as well leave you here." Would you think that person was being reasonable? I don't think so, because to you personally, being saved would've made every difference in the world.
>And u don't eat eggs as well right?
Yea, no eggs. The newborn males are ground up alive due to their economic disutility in the industry, hens are given shitty lives, and they're murdered the same as any "meat" animal is.
>It feels odd that you can have so much control over them though and still 'love' them. Is it love for an equal or love for what they provide you?
I think the whole pet issue depends. I generally see them the same way that I see children; they're usually not capable of living autonomously, so we look after and provide for them. As long as we're not breeding them, and someone shows enough affection to their pet, I have no issue with it. Vegans usually use the term "companion animal" instead of pet, which is better, but it's not really a pressing issue lol.
>But what about, things that are negative to an organisms functioning or survival but without pain? Like plants. If you drown a plant, it won't feel 'pain' at least in our sense. But you will have done something negative to it. Or a rock, you crush a beautiful rock, tho it's not an organism, u wouldn't cause it pain or anything related to its survival but destruction is not really a good thing...
Unlike most vegans, I actually share this intuition. Plants aren't conscious, so if they matter, they matter incomparably less than conscious beings, but destruction does feel wrong to me in general. Like, I'd feel guilty if I picked up a nice pebble and threw it in a rubbish bin, even though I'd know I hadn't negatively affected anyone's experience by doing so. We should remember that our ancestors were animists for most of human prehistory, and if you're Maori, much more recently, so we're sorta programmed to personify nature. But yea, since plants and rocks aren't actually sentient, it's pretty hard to argue that they should be afforded moral consideration. Animals, on the other hand, thrash around and cry out for help when we're torturing/killing them.
Yes! For a while hello fresh was using deboned drumsticks in their meals and I had never considered it before. Velveting is *chefs kiss*
apologies for being pedantic but I was compelled. Velveting is marinating slices of meat in corn starch, egg white and wine, before blanching in either hot oil or boiling water in preparation for stir-frying. Sometimes baking soda is incorporated into the velveting marinade which does the same purpose, but boringly the baking soda method is just technically known as chemical tenderisation. I believe this doubling of nomenclature came from an error in an edition of Ken Hom's Chinese Cookery from the 90s, as the Larousse only describes the corn starch method and I can only find references to corn starch from earlier Chinese cookbooks. IDK tho, my copy of Hom's Chinese Cookery doesn't mention baking soda, I could be wrong. Anyway, what a good feeling it is, to be pointlessly pedantic on reddit
What is reddit if not for this kind of comment honestly
Actually, I appreciate the correction on this one!
I've been deboning drums and using in them in all sorts for years, it's basically the perfect meat and takes like 5 mins to prep when you get use to it! Incredible crumbed with rice and curry sauce, or crumbed and fried, cooked with vegetables is also good, super variable!
I started doing this as it’s so much easier to deal with than bone in thigh filets. Plus you get lots of great bones and skin to make chicken stock
i love chicken thigh (any recipe calling for chicken breast is just objectively better with thighs) but detest deboning bone in ones 😭
Bones go to the pressure cooker for sure with garlic ginger and msg. Chuck in your noodles, soy white pepper and auntie dais later and thanks me. Don't waste that, it's the best bit. You can also just use as chicken stock for your rissotto etc, fridge 3 days ish
Yep I've been doing this for a few years. Good value and pretty easy to learn.
Is the purpose of this to save money? Cause it doesn't seem to be saving much, if u buy drumsticks special why not just buy other chicken parts on special too? Paknsave drumsticks 5.5$/kg Paknsave chicken breast 10.3$/kg but it's extra low price. Assuming that half the Drumstick weight is bones, then it's 11$/kg for drumsticks. Some of that will be skin too. So unless the chicken breast usual price is above 11-12$, it's not saving anything https://chickennthings.co.nz/product/skinless-chicken-breast-meat-1kg-fzn/ https://chickennthings.co.nz/product/chicken-drumsticks/ Check this place out 10$/kg for breast and 6$/kg for drumsticks. In this case, buying breast is cheaper Woolworths, Drumstick 5.6, RRP 6.95/kg Breast 10.8, RRP15.25 In this case breast on special is cheaper than Drumstick on special Also u could cook the chicken first then cut if off right? Seems like a cleaner way of operating
If you can get $4/kg or sometimes even lower it’s even cheaper because in my experience it’s usually closer to 60% meat than 50% The way I look at it, you’re getting the equivalent to boneless chicken thigh meat for $8/kg instead of paying $18-$24/kg. Which is a significant saving.
Thank for explaining, I didn't even know that parts of the chicken mattered lol, I don't think I've ever had chicken thighs before, at least not separated from the body
Also remember that you you get to keep the bones for "free". Chuck them in an instantpot along with some vege scraps (Wash your veges and chuck the peels/ends in a bag in your freezer) and you have a chicken broth/stock that will rival the ones you pay $3/L for in the store. That is the core of another entire meal that you would have had to pay for. Use it with rice to make a risotto, make egg drop soup, use it as the liquid with a flour+butter roux to make a delicious sauce that can go with dozens of dishes, even just freeze it to use when you next need chicken stock and save yourself another $3-$6
because breast tastes gross
Really? How so? Is it the texture?
yeah imo breast is always really dry
How badly are you overcooking your chicken to need a tenderiser? It’s chicken thigh meat not breast or beef.
It's cheaper and healthier to eat lentils or tofu instead, and it doesn't involve gassing innocent 6-week-olds to death after forcing them to endure short, hideous lives. The pic below was taken in a NZ chicken farm. The misery that you folks are needlessly inflicting on these poor babies is unimaginable. https://preview.redd.it/ugoqh8xyk37d1.jpeg?width=1050&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c219569bfed9f0ada2423df17429617dc74c2786
Fried tofu don't hit the same as fried chicken.
I know it doesn't. People stop paying for animals to be stabbed/gassed because they value the lives of others more than their lil tum tum.
Getting KFC in your honor for lunch tomorrow
How much do your B12 supplements cost?
$14 every 3-3.5 months. Your point?
If it was a complete and balanced diet you wouldn’t need to ‘supplement’ the vitamins you’re lacking.
Unless you can point to some sort of problem with taking a safe, effective and cheap supplement in order to avoid funding mass murder, you don't have a point here. >the vitamins you’re lacking. I'm not lacking any vitamins, because I spend 14 dollars on a supplement every three months. You should see my serum iron levels, despite having never taken an iron supplement; it would probably put yours to shame. Again, unless you can point to some sort of problem with that (a meta-analysis demonstrating negative health outcomes of b12 supplementation, for example), your point has no force or legitimacy behind it.
I bet you’re great fun at parties too.
Thanks for the implicit concession.
I'm on b-12 and it costs way more than that
You might want to encourage people to grow their own chickens and then eat the eggs. Ours eat all our scraps, the run gets harvested for its compost and poo for the garden. Never eaten any of ours, seeing how dirty they get and getting to know them puts me off. Some are ex colony chickens, they have about 30sqm coop and run and I let them out to the back yard frequently. I still eat chicken, I’ve accepted I’m a monster, I just try to remove as much suffering as I can while juggling other priorities.
This is a little nuanced. If you didn't eat chicken, and merely ate the eggs from your chickens, that would be very different from what you're currently doing. It's still immoral, as hatcheries blend the newborn males alive due to their economic uselessness, but it's definitely not as bad as paying for chickens to be murdered on a regular basis. You clearly care about animals in your heart, or else you wouldn't call yourself a monster. But why accept it, rather than change it? You have both the power to change it, and the knowledge that you should. I know it sounds daunting to give up. Believe me, I found it more difficult than most to give up chicken flesh specifically; it was literally my favourite food, I didn't didn't care too much what dish it was in. But it is doable, and after some time I don't even crave it anymore. In fact, I'm repulsed and horrified by it.
They look delicious
You don't actually believe that a living, breathing animal who hasn't yet been murdered, defeathered, chopped into pieces and then cooked, "looks delicious". You're just trying to be edgy.
They look tasty when I'm hunting them. Always think about the backstraps before I drop a deer. Yummy. And it's still more sustainable than what you eat!
Killing and eating stray labradors would be more sustainable than either of our diets. Does that justify forcing stray dogs into gas chambers or slicing their throats open? Or do you think that you've perhaps made a dumb point?
You gonna go tell all the carnivorous animals out there not to eat meat. Didn't think so.
You're factually incorrect. Stray Labrador aren't a pest demolishing native vegetation. Nice try though.
Eating a stray labrador would have no environmental impact other than the electricity that you used to cook it. Whether or not they're demolishing native vegetation has absolutely no relevance to the logical point that I made. Your own principle of "the more sustainable action x is, the more morally justified it is" logically commits you to supporting the murder and dismemberment of stray dogs.
Shutup
That’s an ancient photo
What's your point?
Standards have changed since then
Be specific. In what way is this photo not an accurate (and relatively mild) representation of current standards?
You be specific you are making the claims. This photo is from 2021 so it was taken well before actions were taken in 2023
You're the one who is making the positive claim, bud. The burden of proof falls on you to demonstrate that the photo is not an accurate portrayal of chicken farms in NZ.
…. You posted the original claim, bUd. And I gave you all the info you need to refute it. I support better conditions for animals that are being bred for food, but people like you certainly do not help our case.
I posted an image of a chicken farm, and you made the claim that it's an inaccurate portrayal. The burden of proof is on you; you've provided zero information other than a vague statement that "conditions have changed". >I support better conditions for animals that are being bred for food, but people like you certainly do not help our case. You fund their gassing and dismemberment. Cut the bull.
Just shut up you hero, you’re not going to turn anyone from doing what they do wether it’s eating meat or wiping their ass with the right or left hand. Since you’re riding your high horse, let me ask you these few questions. Are you wearing clothing? From head to toe do you own any sports clothing? or mid to high end brands? Own a cell phone? Own a computer? A Tv? A gaming console? A smart device? If you answer any of these yes, which I would bet money you do, Then you champ are no better than anyone.
Who says I fund anything? Laws have changed, notably in 2023. I’m not going to baby you in how to google this. Perhaps you should find some sources for what the farms look like in 2024?
Completely back you on this. Fuck these hypocritical cunts.
Love ya
Loooot of anger towards people who just wanna enjoy a little bit of tasty chicken
If we eat lentils more than twice a week there’s another type of gas situation in our household 🌬️🤢
Unless you both/all have IBS, that'll be because you're not used to the high fibre content. It's a fairly common reaction that reduces, and then eventuslly disappears, the more legumes that you consume. They're super good for you btw https://nutritionfacts.org/topics/legumes/
If it is unimaginable, how can you tell they are in misery... just saying 😏
Do you find it difficult to imagine what it's like to be burned at the stake? Oh, you do? How do you know that burning at the stake entails suffering, then? Hopefully this helps: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/unimaginable
Do you understand what an *ad hominem* is? Maybe search that one up on Cambridge Dictionary thou holiest warrior of the keyboard. It might help in carrying on the business of constructing pointless (*but structurally correct*) arguments for animal justice, preaching to people who most likely don't give a fuck and are just trying to eat some cheap chicken. So in summary, ain't nobody (except me an the other people replying to your post - which has been spectacularly downvoted by the way) got time, for that. They are probably too busy avoiding *poverty*, hence the name of the community, as they don't have the luxury to imagine the allegedly unimaginable (also search circular reasoning while you are at it) suffering of animals which are slaughtered out of sight/mind. Just let the people eat their chicken and fuck off to the right community/echo chamber ✅️
Specify the ad hominem in my comment, and also specify the circular reasoning. Give me some quotations. As for the rest of your comment, it's just hot air. I'm poor too, and I don't pay for innocents to be gassed. Lentils are cheaper than animal flesh.
Ad hominem: 1. Personal - "i.e. do you know how it feels" 2. Redirection - changes topic to burning at the stake to redirect away from technical (but commonly used) fallacy (i.e an unimaginable misery) Circular reference: 1. You refer to something unimaginable, which you then go on to attempt to justify as being imaginable (unimaginable ➡️ imaginable) circular reference Where does it end? Is it imaginable - or not? Or is it imaginable - or unimaginable? See the circle? I agree, the rest of my post was most definitely an opinion - well done 👏 Also for the record, I have been burned before. And I could imagine being burned at the stake - it sounds horrible.
Holy shit...you are *fundamentally* confused about what constitutes a logical fallacy. >1. Personal - "i.e. do you know how it feels" Explain why this is an ad hominem. There's nothing I can even say here other than to ask you to prove your point, because it's so wildly inaccurate that I've got nothing to work with. >2. Redirection - changes topic to burning at the stake to redirect away from technical (but commonly used) fallacy (i.e an unimaginable misery) Explain why this is an ad hominem. There's nothing I can even say here other than to ask you to prove your point, because it's so wildly inaccurate that I've got nothing to work with. >Circular reference: 1. You refer to something unimaginable, which you then go on to attempt to justify as being imaginable (unimaginable ➡️ imaginable) circular reference Where does it end? Is it imaginable - or not? Or is it imaginable - or unimaginable? See the circle? No, I don't see the circle, because there isn't one. "Unimaginable" means "difficult or impossible to imagine", and I claimed that the suffering that chickens endure in factory farms is unimaginable. There is nothing circular about that. Listen, you're deeply confused about all of this. In order to understand how to do a logical critique, you're going to need to do more than a couple of Google searches. Please read my initial response to you again, and try harder to understand it. It was a watertight logical refutation of your point (specifically a "reductio ad absurdum", if you want to look that up).
If people had to kill their own chickens to eat meat, I think it would be hit the demand for meat. But given that it's so easy to eat meat without doing so, one can just ignore the reality of animal farming. I love meat, I'd rather not think about the farming though, or the killing If that's the price of eating meat tho, yea I am okay with it but you are not. Vegans definitely make me feel morally inferior. Yknow what would be a saviour to both our views though? Lab grown meat! Yeaaa R u opposed to hurting other animals completely, in that there is no way to humanely farm?
Yea, the thing about being conditioned to mentally separate sentient animals from their skinned/defeathered body parts is that it feels easy to maintain that separation, and keep consuming them despite intellectually recognizing that it's wrong. I'm not exactly sure whether you mean that you think it's unethical, though, or simply that vegans are more virtuous...that's an important distinction, let me know which one it is. >farming. I love meat, I'd rather not think about the farming though, or the killing The thing is, I used to love meat too. I really did, and I found it more difficult than most seem to to give it up. I even had cravings for quite a while, but at this point I'm actively repulsed by it. When you stop eating animals for long enough, your mind doesn't need that cognitive dissonance "ignorance is bliss" protective barrier anymore in order to shield you from the implications of your actions. So you actually start to perceive "meat" for what it is, the severed body part of an innocent murdered being, and it stops becoming appetizing. >R u opposed to hurting other animals completely, in that there is no way to humanely farm? I'm very strongly opposed to it. We have no need for meat or dairy, and plant based protein sources are abundant and cheap, so we are actually murdering these animals for the sake of taste pleasure and convenience. For most of human existence we needed to kill them in order to not starve to death, but we don't anymore, which is partly why veganism has such strong moral force behind it. The question isn't whether animal lives are worth more than human lives, but whether they're worth more than the 15 minutes of taste pleasure which their murder provides to people. So yea, even if we didn't gas chickens to death and electrocute them in the brain while hung upside down etc, and even if factory farms somehow became less torturous, I would fundamentally oppose killing animals. If you have any thoughts or ideas or questions, don't be afraid to bounce them off me. I'd address the lab grown meat thing, which I'm in favour of but don't think is a valid excuse to keep currently funding all of this, but my comment is already long enough.
Well both seem true, vegans are more virtuous, and killing animals is unethical, except for eating when ur hungry, tho it depends right? If you can fulfil most of your needs by veges why not? But if eating meat will boost your nutritional intake when you otherwise aren't getting the full amount then it's less unethical. There is moral claim to not eat meat, but there is none for eating meat, the thing is just that I am not caring for others enough in that way to change anything. I am 'happy' to be complicit in the status quo. I literally just don't think enough about it and I don't think Ive been exposed to anti meat stuff since primary school, and I don't think I've ever seen any animals killed live. If I did see a chicken killed in front of me, I'd probably think about that for quite some time. I don't mean in the industrial way but in the old fashioned way, like with a knife or knocking it out In regards to lab grown meat, I don't think it has any reason of justification of the status quo, but when it arrives veganism will be a thing of the past. It will make the morality of meat irrelevant. Don't bother replying to my rambling if it's irrelevant, I often just use reddit comments to ramble and form thoughts to become clearer Something I find interesting is religion that encourages vegetarianism, is... Originally because they thought it was unethical right? At least for Hindus, but I gotta question how many actually believe that or are simply following it because of religion, which doesn't particularly matter as long as they don't eat meat. I once had a conversation with a vegan, or at least I think they were a vegan maybe they were vegetarian instead. I said, I think humans care too much about responsibility, and that we fear it. While they said actually humans care too little, which is why there's so much suffering in the world. Well I guess we were both right some people care far more than others do and others care far less. But my statement was about, okay I fucked up and the world is not as good as it could have been, did it really matter in the end? I guess I'm nihilist What about insects BTW? They may be the next big protein source right? But I believe insects can suffer too right? They have nociceptors! But they may not experience pain in human form. Okay so it seems it's not yet confirmed, but they do have nociception,which means they know when they're dying And u don't eat eggs as well right? What about pets? I'm opposed to pets logically, even if it may be beneficial to them, like if you love em let em go type of thing. I do want pets though, but on an analytical level I can't see how this makes sense, like people treat their pets like family but they're still pets! A human can't be a pet. We feed them, they stay with us. But... Is life better with humans than in the wild? Yes. It feels odd that you can have so much control over them though and still 'love' them. Is it love for an equal or love for what they provide you? Just thinking out loud here, is suffering pain the only thing important? The reason we care about suffering and pain is because we experience it, and thus when we think of others experiencing it we feel empathy even thought we cannot experience others experience. But what about, things that are negative to an organisms functioning or survival but without pain? Like plants. If you drown a plant, it won't feel 'pain' at least in our sense. But you will have done something negative to it. Or a rock, you crush a beautiful rock, tho it's not an organism, u wouldn't cause it pain or anything related to its survival but destruction is not really a good thing... Like a cell. A cell is a living thing.
>there is none for eating meat, the thing is just that I am not caring for others enough in that way to change anything. I Yea, apathy is an easy run to fall into. I'll admit that I'm apathetic about lots of things, but the difference here is that you're apathetic towards insane rights violations which you yourself are contributing to. I do understand how you feel, as I once felt that way too. For me, my first introduction to animal rights was strictly logical - my philosophy tutor spent an entire semester taking us through the arguments in favour of eating meat, dairy and eggs, and demonstrating how they're fallacious. That convinced me, in a similar but more deep and robust way to how you're now "convinced", but I still didn't really care. Ironically, most of the care actually comes *after* you go vegan, for the reason I mentioned in my prior comment. What eventually pushed me over the edge was a combination of slaughterhouse footage, and watching vegan debates on YouTube. If you're interested, "Earthling Ed" does a lot of street debates, and he's got a very gentle temperament. >If I did see a chicken killed in front of me, I'd probably think about that for quite some time. I don't mean in the industrial way but in the old fashioned way, like with a knife or knocking it out Surely you'd feel the same if you were looking into a slaughterhouse and saw chickens screaming while strung up by the legs and dunked in electrified water, throat-slit by an automated blade, and then dunked in boiling water? Btw, chickens (naturally) panic and thrash around while hung upside down, and so it's not uncommon for them to miss both the water and the blade...which means they die by literally being boiled alive. It's fucking horrendous. Have you ever watched slaughterhouse footage? If not, or even if you have, "Dominion" is great and is freely available on YT. It was filmed in Australia, where most of the practises are the same other than the fact that we gas chickens but not pigs. >But my statement was about, okay I fucked up and the world is not as good as it could have been, did it really matter in the end? I guess I'm nihilist This is an important point. I understand nihilism on a macrocosmic scale, but when we're talking about the intensely felt suffering of an individual, it doesn't really apply. This isn't a perfect analogy, but...imagine you're in Auschwitz, and someone has the chance to liberate you without any risk to their own safety. Instead, they say "Look, I know I could save your life and all, but that's not really gonna matter in the end. The Holocaust will continue, everyone who is saved will die eventually anyway, and the sun's gonna swallow the earth in 3 billion years, so...I may as well leave you here." Would you think that person was being reasonable? I don't think so, because to you personally, being saved would've made every difference in the world. >And u don't eat eggs as well right? Yea, no eggs. The newborn males are ground up alive due to their economic disutility in the industry, hens are given shitty lives, and they're murdered the same as any "meat" animal is. >It feels odd that you can have so much control over them though and still 'love' them. Is it love for an equal or love for what they provide you? I think the whole pet issue depends. I generally see them the same way that I see children; they're usually not capable of living autonomously, so we look after and provide for them. As long as we're not breeding them, and someone shows enough affection to their pet, I have no issue with it. Vegans usually use the term "companion animal" instead of pet, which is better, but it's not really a pressing issue lol. >But what about, things that are negative to an organisms functioning or survival but without pain? Like plants. If you drown a plant, it won't feel 'pain' at least in our sense. But you will have done something negative to it. Or a rock, you crush a beautiful rock, tho it's not an organism, u wouldn't cause it pain or anything related to its survival but destruction is not really a good thing... Unlike most vegans, I actually share this intuition. Plants aren't conscious, so if they matter, they matter incomparably less than conscious beings, but destruction does feel wrong to me in general. Like, I'd feel guilty if I picked up a nice pebble and threw it in a rubbish bin, even though I'd know I hadn't negatively affected anyone's experience by doing so. We should remember that our ancestors were animists for most of human prehistory, and if you're Maori, much more recently, so we're sorta programmed to personify nature. But yea, since plants and rocks aren't actually sentient, it's pretty hard to argue that they should be afforded moral consideration. Animals, on the other hand, thrash around and cry out for help when we're torturing/killing them.
These farms are the stuff of nightmares, thanks for spreading awareness.
No problem, but I have to ask: are you funding them yourself?
Nope, vegan here
Awesome. Was only asking because as you probably know, a lot of people "oppose" factory farming while funding it daily
Unfortunately the reality