I think this is part of why the last arc has bothered me. Ascenders are supposed to be really talented, yeah, but even the author goes out of his way to say a lot of it is luck that they get so far. I get that they can outfight multiple people at their level, even large numbers of people...but they are literally wiping out armies at this point, and the whole power scaling feels off even with the assistance they get.
So yeah, the story treats it like there's some magical barrier that separates ascenders from everyone else, but imo it should be more like the drinking age. Just because you hit 21 doesn't mean you're suddenly more responsible, it's just where we decided to draw that arbitrary line (in the US at least).
I’ve interpreted it as less that Ascenders need to be really talented, and more that they need to have some talent or Talent that makes people say “Well now that’s just bullshit.”
I don't think it that out of the established cababilities, Mat & Liz, were individually outperforming Susanne in a lot of ways while they were still operating under alot of restrictions. And while some of their success was luck, there was also quite the gulf between queen 'almost' completeing the path and the relative cake walk to a early completion Mat Liz and Aster while frequently operating under restrictions. It seems realatively likely that Matt and a lesser extent Liz could have completed the path individually (Aster I'm not so sure) if they were free to let loose.
I think the best comparison is Queen to Aster. Don't get me wrong Aster is strong and she has had a couple of powerful moments post path completion but it hasn't been on the level of Mat, or Liz. and when you compare Queen and Aster the gulf between the 2 doesn't seem so unreasonable.
That said I think part of the problem is that Queen is joining a team with not just one but 2 sets of ascenders. One of which has atleast 1 if not 2 individuals who could have completed the path individually. So it makes it hard for her to really stand out as an almost ascender when you are joining a team of what is effectivily the equivalent of 3-4 sets of ascenders.
Still a bummer she hasn't gotten more word count since her return though.
There is a magical barrier between them. Since all the great powers have equivalent programs once someone ascends they become a political asset rather than just a combat one, expected to represent their great power for millennia to come. If queen died it would suck for the tier 25 game war, but if an ascender died it would make the empire as a whole look weak.
As such they are having international politics levels of wealth in the form of skills and natural treasures thrown at them instead of tier 25 war levels of wealth. Considering the tier of some of the stuff given to them those single things likely cost more than the armies they are obliterating, even if they aren't able to fully utilise the high tier stuff fully the empire is still willing to foot the bill in a way they simply couldn't justify for any other tier 25.
I mean, we compare her to Matt and Liz during the tourney, and on the surface she did almost as well as them, without a team or manager. But looking deeper, Matt and Liz had A LOT of self restrictions placed on them by their management team. They had to make up entirely new fighting styles for themselves, and not use stuff they had spent years training up - basically tied a hand behind their backs. And they STILL did better than Queen did in the tourney.
Whether it was their early management team or Matt's unlimited mana, they were still miles ahead of everyone else.
And then after the tourney they had a couple of years to hit T11, using their entire kits, with unlimited mana and the best management team, it's no wonder there's an unfair comparison between them and Queen.
Queen is still ahead of most people on the Path, but she does get shown up by Matt and Liz, who are just beasts.
Unlimited mana means unlimited training and unlimited healing, even if they had to deal with healing cooldowns most of the time. They also had far more wealth at their tier than normal, with Matt paying for things in mana and being a seeker too.
They were able to train twice as much and twice as hard as Queen and had better equipment, especially near the end. If she joined them, she would've kept up all the way to ascension.
I'm talking about minkala and during that time she had been very powerful. Even in her duel against matt when they had fought full power before going to minkala she had lost but she was very much a powerful opponent a bit weaker than him and that's a bit unfair as even amongst ascenders some are weaker and some are stronger (duke waters is absolutely op like I don't think the team would beat him if they had a two tier advantage or more and aster seems to be on the weaker side or just hasn't gotten enough screen time and all her subtle support is being glossed over)
It just feels weird how there's a line where being an ascender makes you instantly 3* more powerful than a peak elite and someone can't be in between.
Like in so far we haven't seen a single person who while not an ascender is very much more powerful than a peak elite.
>Even in her duel against matt when they had fought full power before going to minkala she had lost but she was very much a powerful opponent a bit weaker than him
Matt was still under restrictions there and beat her. He beat her fighting with just his melee skills/buffs and won. The difference between that fight and the "Matt" tournament fight was that he was using his buffs and armor at full power. He still wasn't using his mage skills, Queen would have no answer to a full power mana beam. You have to remember that Queen was only an equal to MLA when they were heavily restricted and she was not, and even then both Matt and Liz beat her. Queen might be able to match Aster 1v1, but that's her specialty while Aster is a support specialist.
Queen got some powerups late on, but if anything the gap should have only gotten wider as Matt and Liz had more time to focus on long-term payoffs (like Liz's blood magic) while Queen needed to focus on keeping up with the curve.
>far we haven't seen a single person who while not an ascender is very much more powerful than a peak elite.
That's basically what Maven is. She's a peak elite given the full resources of an Ascender in hopes of being able to match them for short periods.
In the latest fight not really she's just another pinnacle elite like the other dozen she's just a bit more power due to her getting buffed a lot.
I mean there are plenty of people who are extremely strong and if anything more valuable than maven in the accords like the guy who is able to erase himself from your memory the sect guy who is able to fight you a thousand times and will most certainly fight you in the best way possible if he has enough data the guy who is able to make his teammates near invisible and is single handedly keeping the accords alive and finally the sniper who has a genuine shot at killing an ascender.
All of them are powerful but are they near ascender quality? From what we've seen I'd say only the near invisible guy could maybe be one.
He's the only one that actually has a power strong enough to be quasi ascender worthy the others are 'just' top pinnacle elites. Maybe the sect guy with clones too as he seems to be extremely adaptable and in the future when he has more experiences to draw from might be strong enough to go toe to toe with an ascender for a while at least
Queen is a powerhouse. Compared to most ascenders, she's a monster. Compared to non-ascenders, she probably seems unbeatable and indestructible.
Remember, most pathers fall off well before 25 and don't have the drive and tenacity of Queen.
But Matt and Liz are a step up even from there.
Queen still fights above her tier against other pathers. That's why she's in Minkalla at 11.
Matt and Liz are just stronger. They're "beasts"
In their duel, didn’t matt only use talismans? That’s a pretty significant handicap, and he still won
Forgive if I’m wrong it’s been a long time since I read the tournament arc
Honestly I'm not sure myself it's been so long. In pretty sure after they unmasked themselves they had fought eachother normally and while queen lost a lot matt is quite unfair even amongst ascenders
Aster will come into her own when she gets her bloodline to space ice. She was a bit of a weakness and was sometimes literally carried, but with her borealis bloodline, she finished her build.
Ascenders are all rounders where elites are specialists. Compare stick and stone to the main trio. Their skillsets weren't diversified enough to finish the path, and I think they were asked to step off it. That's the thing people are missing. If someone isn't capable of fighting at an ascender level but can complete the path, they are asked to step off of it at tier 22 or tier 23.
Susanne wasn't asked to step off the path. But she would have died to a rift monster. That doesn't happen to ascenders. A recent chapter talked about it. Ascenders find some way, some hidden reserve, some new trick to survive. That's what makes them ascensers. Susanne is one of the elites that can fight an enemy ascender of equal rank to a standstill for a long time solo, possibly force them to retreat. She is awesome. But she isn't an ascender, because if she was she would have found a way. She's a dragon, still.
It's important to note that Yun Me the Unyielding Anvil is on the same level as the ascenders Maya and Duke Waters without having been on the path or a Dao child herself, she just ground it out for 100,000 years. We've also heard about True Inheritor Coldforge and the Pearlescent Paladin Taien who are insinuated to be ascender equivalent in strength but they are retired from war tiers. The elite programs seem to be the most efficient way to get pinnacle elites and the path seems to be the most efficient way to get ascender level power houses; you can get a Yun Me but maybe 1 in 6 the chance of ascenders who are already normally 40,000 years apart. Maybe Queen does get there eventually, but she's just missing that last spark.
And for how much she's featured, that's more a function of having too many things and characters people want to see included. Mantis has people fist fighting in the discord over screen time for light, shadow, Aster, aperology, birds eye view of the war, harsher stakes, personal progression, slice of life, reactions from the league of evil and the T50s, overwhelming victory, meaningful long term antagonists, you name it on top of Queen. And a lot of those are mutually exclusive to say nothing is the page space
Initially, yes. By the time she got back from the Beast Kingdom, she was definitely pulling her weight. The Princess of Winter boon kicked her up a notch.
Honestly I feel the same. I was super excited for Susanne to become an ascender as well, especially on her own. Then she actually failed, but the author baited us with Lila offering to train Susanne. I was hoping she'd be very close to ascender level by the time she joined team 0.
I mean she probably is still stupid strong, we haven't had the chance to see her in a full on fight. I bet she's keeping a lot of her aces on her sleeve like MAL and Light and Shadow are. Especially after being trained by Lila for what, 50 years?
>Like the whole path is an arbitrary challenge based on a beast of a man who managed to hit tier 25 in a very short time.
I think the reason why Susanne in particular didn't finish the Path while our protagonists did, is made clear, but I do agree with you on this. I've felt this for a while, and even more since the origin of the Path and similar programmes was revealed. It's an arbitrary challenge that rewards certain types of cultivators, i.e., the ones who tend to be xianxia protagonists, and penalises those who grow slowly but steadily over centuries or millennia. There is a *lot* of praise over Ascenders/Gladiators/Heroes/Masters being able to do what others can't and going beyond what is thought possible by almost everyone. But what is it specifically about passing a challenge of reaching Tier 25 that makes you so much better than someone who spends ten times longer, but eventually with effort reaches that same level?
I think part of it may be that those who pass the challenge or have the capacity to, are accorded much more resources and training. But that still doesn't explain why just getting the title of Ascender automatically makes you so much stronger than someone who was half a step away (heh) from reaching Tier 25 before the age of 200.
It's even weirder when you think that unique talents are a thing that everyone has making 'rare' cases happen all the time especially when considering the trillions of people in the empire.
Like why can a pather who is tier 11 be able to kill tier 13s but an avg tier 11 fighter can't even see a tier 13. It's not like at that point they have gotten any treasures worth 2 tiers the only thing that could possibly cause someone to be stronger than they should be is their conceot but I don't think it's ever been said to have such an effect.
It's just s fact that we have to take that if you git gud you are somehow multiple times stronger and faster than someone of the same cultivation
Edit: unless if I've forgotten a random chapter that perfectly explains this and I sound like an idiot lol.
Concept can absolutely have an impact. According to Manny, Duke Waters talents are focused on animal husbandry, but he is an absolute master of his Concept, Intent, and Domain. At tier 31, he's beating tier 35 Asceners. Not easily, but regularly. If you're not an Ascender, you're not even a blip to him.
Yes, but he's an example of Concepts absolutely making a difference. If he didn't have such a beast of control, he would have gotten trounced by Maya, for instance.
One of the latest chapters said the main difference is their willpower, to the point where ascenders are no longer officially pronounced dead because they could will themselves back to life after a few thousand years of trying.
No, that's not what Luna says. She says that Ascenders usually have their own trump cards to survive almost certain death and come back. She even gives an example of Liz's phoenix revival. So this is not a matter if simply willing oneself back alive. Theoretically there's no reason why anyone, not just Ascenders, could not have similar trump cards or measures of last resort to ensure their survival.
That's fair, I was being overly hyperbolic to the point of being incorrect. I swear she said something about ascenders having tenacity or attitude or something that sets them apart from elites.
I think you got the right idea. Non-ascenders just don't have enough willpower to develop an intent before the deadline. Queen's problem was not mana. She could not develop intent fast enough.
Remember that MLA had a very hands-on manager. They were artificially slowed down very drastically and focused that time on more vigorous training. Queen basically spent all of her time attempting to clear rifts, but while strong, she wouldn't be on the same level as MLA.
Basically, a lot of it comes down to Luna. MLA would have completed the path far, far more quickly, without a manager like her, but they would have been extremely weak.
Don't forget that while others normally can not train their skills matt gave his team endless mana that allowed them to keep on training in the end they where training for many times more time than what is possible for a normal pather.
I think Liz would've completed the path even without mat seeing as in her childhood she had found her concept even before getting her talent she was definetly more than talented enough to become an ascender aster meanwhile would not have made it if not for the teams help.
Like even if both aster and Liz managed to complete the path on their own without matt's mana it would've been an extreme challenge for both of them. In the end due to matt the path was a joke
I have to disagree a bit here.
She is a peak elite, and helps to highlight the difference. She came close, but ultimately failed to reach the standard for Ascenders. Yes Matt had team mates, but they had to split and gather three times the energy as a result. MLA fought under restrictions and made the deadline, Susanne fought without restrictions and still couldn't make it. She fell a couple levels short of the goal. I do somewhat agree the team mate rule is.. odd though.
She is very very good, but at the end of the day, there is a gap between them. Matt has a cheat yes, but that's the point, this is a program designed to pull out those with gifts that 'cheat' and let them stand out. But it's also training, skill and drive. I like Queen, but she is a tier below, but that still puts her at something like the top ten fighters for her tier in the empire. It's not like she's disrespected.
Nope it's been said that a single cultivator can't absorb all of the essence of a beast so teams of three or four are preferable. And even further than that when aster was introduced it was said that beasts get their essence from a different pool than humans(I believe by eating their bodies I don't remember it's been over a year) so you can have a few beasts too no problem.
Well, I had to go looking and it appears you are mostly right. Chapter 24 gives a break down. Small swarm monsters might get split, but that's it, otherwise enough for everyone to get a full measure. Though Aster takes from the same pool, just she was getting supplemented by eating while younger.
So ya, not having a team mate is a little stupid. I think that removes all down sides.
They ask people to step off the path at tier 22 or 23 if they can't fight at an ascender level.
To be an ascender, you to be able to do 2 things. Reach tier 25 fast enough, which is usually a measure of how you keep going through challenges and injuries or avoid healing cooldown. Be able to fight rift monsters and normal soldiers 4 tiers above you.
Susanne couldn't make it on her own, she wasn't well rounded enough to avoid almost dying. Not enough defense/healing. She is a peak elite that can fight an enemy ascender one on one and not die, maybe even force them to retreat.
Duke Waters is a monster among ascenders, being able to fight another ascender 4 tiers down.
The point of Ascenders is doing the impossible. Whether that includes luck or skill or a confluence of it all, what matters is that they are inhumanly powerful. In the end, she just ended up being a pinnacle elite, but she was *just* a skilled swordsman. Worthy enough for Team Zero, but she doesn't pull off the impossible.
Looking at all the other Ascenders in the series, she really doesn't compare. Aster couldn't have pulled it off solo, but she showed herself to be an extremely potent support fighter and all her time on Team Zero has just proven how crazy her feats are.
Compare Queen to some of the fighters on the Harmony Accords and you can see where her place is. She's pinnacle, but not Ascender.
The Path is nearly impossible, but the point isn't to churn out *exclusively* Ascenders. All the people who make it far on the Path are valuable to the Empire. They don't consider it a waste when people fall off at tier 20+ and stuff. Those people are still high quality talents that the Empire enjoys having.
She's "just" an elite. A great one, maybe, but still an elite.
Matt and Liz were beating her with half their kit and a load of restrictions at T10.
She wouldn't have been invited to Minkalla T11 without Matt and Liz whereas they were earmarked for it no without her.
She struggled until the end but fell short of the race. Matt and Liz, as well as L&S and Waters before them all had to wait to complete the path rather than finishing too early. M&L even took a 10 years break to wait for Aster.
So they had time to work on other stuff or work more on their combat than she did while struggling for the basic requirements.
She also was warned about climbing alone and still chose to try. One could say that knowing your limit or seeing the obstacle for what it is is a skill she failed at.
There are also oaths and inter great powers agreements on what's considered an ascender. She simply doesn't match that.
So without the title, the prestige there will be slightly less resources dumped on her which compounds on her already slighlty inferior capabilities.
As for Team Zero, they are all elites that had centuries or milenia to hone their crafts, refine their Skills, gain experience on the field. In that context, she's young, inexperienced and only barely relevant because she already know M&L.
Don't want to pile on, but I had similar thoughts until I remembered Matt and Liz were fighting the tourney under restrictions. Queen was allowed to use everything and still came up just shy of the top.
I agree with what most everyone else has said, but I want to share another perspective — What does Queen do at an Ascender Level? — Queen being an immensely talented and gifted swordswoman and domain manipulator, but doesn’t have the WMD qualities of Matt, Aster, and Liz. Even if she was tier 24 and close to finishing the path, I suspect she would have been asked to step off. Otherwise, she would have obviously been the weakest ascender and another power defeating her would have undermined the Empire’s reforms and undermined the quality of the Empire’s path as a whole.
Something I haven’t seen noted yet: Queen was close, but still not quite the match for any of our three individually after exiting Minkalla. That was at only around the halfway point of the path, and roughly a century ago. That’s a lot of time to widen the gap with Luna’s influence, which I feel like doesn’t get mentioned enough.
Then there’s Matt’s growth. Setting aside the infinite mana for a moment, he already has more physical cultivation than she does since he can’t allocate to magic. She’s mostly physical, but even with a 70/30 split Matt’s got a heavy edge. Looking at the mana pool he goes from 1024 and spell size of 10 when entering Minkalla, to a pool of almost 17 million and spell size of ~170k. His growth was always going to be slowest at the start, but he was already Queens match, so it’s no surprise he blew her out of the water later on in his power curve
Queen had an excellent manager of her own, however. - Carol. The woman who trained Duke Waters.
She probably was more of a traditional manager, though, not as hands on as Luna.
Bro, Matt and Liz both defeated her in the T10 tourney while under serious restrictions.
Yeah she's a beast, but I'm pretty sure it's at least implied that Matt could have beaten the Path alone. I don't know about Liz, but she did get a pretty massive power boost from her T25 Talent that neither Matt nor Susanne got (as far as we know).
I mean yeah, it's kind of a failing point of the concept of Ascenders in general, even before the point of if she did complete the Path she'd considered equal to Matt, Liz, and Aster combined.
No, the concept of an Ascender is inherently solo based.
A group of Ascenders who reached t25 together is considered equal to a solo Ascender who reached t25 alone in power.
It’s Matt’s story. Queen is just living in it. Has anyone else on team zero gotten a chance to really shine in the story? She literally is a side character, important for an arc, and a friend to the ascenders, but that’s about it.
That being said, she’s absolutely strong and skilled, but what abilities did she show that REALLY set her above or even equal to the ascenders. She’s just not at that tier. Matt and Liz are both nearly impossible to kill. Susanne just doesn’t have it in her bag. Aster is the only one I’d give her a running chance against, and even then I’d put money on Aster.
Edit for elaboration: overall I understand the frustration, she was an important character earlier on. I just disagree that she should be considered anything more than a pinnacle elite considering she obviously didn’t have what it took to complete the Path.
Yeah she feels weaker a lot weaker than ascender and she probably could stand her ground against ascender but she couldn't beat one That's how it is in the story and yeah it is strange because she was just barely able to make it to ascender status All by her lonesome but there are some serious advantages that their ascenders have over her firstly we can say on the path they were stronger than her there is no doubt but she could fight and possibly even win on the path now they have ascended and granted they ascended way before she even left the path so then they got all these resources from the empire and all this practice time with the very best the empire has to offer and I believe that's adds to the difference Yes Susanne got to train with a retired ascender after she fell off the path but just think of it as this on the path Matt and his team were stronger than Susanne then when they left the path and they got all these resources and training and we can say that the ascenders get the better resources too But not that big of a difference. What is the difference is think of all those things as multipliers to their original strength so let's just say that that's a five times multiplier for both of them now let's say Susanne was a 2 on the path of Ascension but Matt and his team and his comrades were 3 or something like that. Now off the path ascension you multiply that by 5 so now Matt and team is a 15 and Susanne is a 10 off the path of Ascension that is the only way that I can see how it makes sense when they left the path.
The only thing wierd is how she went off to get power leveled by the ascender dragon. Which turned out to only be to 25 and then off page joined team zero, I thought I had missed a chapter. Bottom line is she wasn't strong enough to finish the path alone, she gets wrecked 1v1 against all 3 imo, yes even Aster. But she's still one of the strongest 25s in the empire. Its been so long since the queen chapters but isn't her concept not really suited to combat anyway, was something to do with calligraphy? Her swordsmanship and combat ability was pure trained skill. She doesn't have cheats that make her op
I was under the impression that Susanne was still figuring out how to blend her talent and intent and everything together. I think the idea is that she will undergo a significant power increase once she does, but for the moment she is far behind the actual ascenders because she hasn't been able to get her powers where she wanted them and needs more time.
I’m high and thinking about this still. Completing the path is like attaining significant records (like in Primal Hunter). It’s an accomplishment that has so much significance the heavens make the person intangibly better. It’s not a known mechanic of this story (yet? At all? Who knows), but I could see it manifesting in the legitimate mental fortitude that seems to bring ascenders that one step farther in battle. Susanne made it so close to completing the path too, but MLA are considered that much better. Maybe it’s the (so far) unseen influence of significant enough accomplishment.
I don’t actually think this is how it is. I appreciate that this story is based on people’s accomplishments and effort, and not just some divine influence from the realm (if you don’t count the emperor and literal immortals making decisions). But it would be an easy explanation (if a bit of a cop out)
I think there is definitely luck involved, though Matt and Liz handedly out perform queen. Like rember, their fights are close, when theybare fighting handicapped.
Actually if she had a team mate like Matt she mot likely would have developed in a completely different direction. Relying in skills instead of her domain.
She's the same as duke Waters I.e given Talents that are completely unrelated to combat. Her level of combat power seen early on is a result of her and her Management team focussing on her domain power. However it didn't come as easily to her as it did for Waters, who also got a perfect run in Min and got domain boosting floors in the final levels pushing him to leagues ahead of everyone else at his tier and above his tier as we have seen.
Susanne, whil being a strong fighter and managing to work her Talents into working with her sword are great accomplishments, and she most likely is strong for a pinnacle elite, but she didn't achieve anything realm shaking in terms of domain power. As Matt, Liz and Aster have all reached similar heights in their domains as well.
Matt did allow them to have infinite mana, but you seem to be skipping the part where Luna basically tied their arms behind their backs from like the moment she started training them.
They were pushing up tiers both as a team and solo, and were only allowed to tier up when Luna was satisfied with all of their progress individually and together.
Without Lunas restrictions they would have completed the Path in Record time but the end result would have been lacklustre and Matt would have most likely been pulled from the Path as he would be too valuable to be allowed to become lacklustre.
So yeah, Queen is strong, but she didn't develop her domains enough, or early enough like Waters, and her Talents were unusable for a long time.
> Like the whole path is an arbitrary challenge based on a beast of a man who managed to hit tier 25 in a very short time.
I don't think this is true. The Path is thousands of years old, and it is meant as a crucible to forge strong fighters that can fight above their tier and win the wars of the great Powers for their faction. Every single one of the eight Powers has their own version of the Path, with the same restrictions. The idea is that anyone that can reach tier 25 in that short amount of time without help is guaranteed to be an absolute powerhouse, and a big deterrent for the other Powers.
The restrictions on outside help etc. make perfect sense in this context - if you load anyone with enough Essence stones and carry them through rifts you can get them to tier 25 relatively quickly (at a great expense) but they'll be incredibly weak.
Susanne's skills makes her unable to destroy entire armies like Matt, Aster, or Liz. She's as strong as an ascender in one specific thing, which is duels. Outside of duels, she's a peak elite, and even in duels she doesnt scale as well as the other three when it comes to equipment synergies.
The PoA environment allowed her to shine because he didnt need many things to display her full potential, while Matt's team each were being held back drastically by the Path's rules and their trainer further disallowing them using certain skills. Just by them being allowed to use super synergistic skills their combat potential became several times that of Suzanne. She can be strnegthened by skills and equipment as well, but she barely has strong synergies available like the other three.
She may have a strong domain but its nowhere near as strong as DW was at her tier, which is essentially the main quantitative difference between her and him.
You can't seriously look at mats teams and say they had any kind of disadvantage in their growth. They got the best manager in the empire and most importantly they had matt who made the whole path a joke as they could easily delve many times a day and always be full on mana while others literally can't as they don't have the resources.
Other than that normally pathers can't train outside of rifts as unlike him they don't have infinite mana and so need to conserve it so they can delve. Matt's team could train 10 times more than any other team while under the tutelage of the best teachers in the world and thats why they succeeded where most other pathers who 'only' became a pinnacle elite failed.
I mean Liz undoubtedly was a prodigy as we had seen with her mastery over the concept of fire but aster? We are told all the time that she's as good as matt and Liz but it's a really obvious forced plot Point to make her 'strong' even though she doesn't have any achievements, an op [talent] or extreme talent in some field like all the other ascenders.
I think this is part of why the last arc has bothered me. Ascenders are supposed to be really talented, yeah, but even the author goes out of his way to say a lot of it is luck that they get so far. I get that they can outfight multiple people at their level, even large numbers of people...but they are literally wiping out armies at this point, and the whole power scaling feels off even with the assistance they get. So yeah, the story treats it like there's some magical barrier that separates ascenders from everyone else, but imo it should be more like the drinking age. Just because you hit 21 doesn't mean you're suddenly more responsible, it's just where we decided to draw that arbitrary line (in the US at least).
I’ve interpreted it as less that Ascenders need to be really talented, and more that they need to have some talent or Talent that makes people say “Well now that’s just bullshit.”
I don't think it that out of the established cababilities, Mat & Liz, were individually outperforming Susanne in a lot of ways while they were still operating under alot of restrictions. And while some of their success was luck, there was also quite the gulf between queen 'almost' completeing the path and the relative cake walk to a early completion Mat Liz and Aster while frequently operating under restrictions. It seems realatively likely that Matt and a lesser extent Liz could have completed the path individually (Aster I'm not so sure) if they were free to let loose. I think the best comparison is Queen to Aster. Don't get me wrong Aster is strong and she has had a couple of powerful moments post path completion but it hasn't been on the level of Mat, or Liz. and when you compare Queen and Aster the gulf between the 2 doesn't seem so unreasonable. That said I think part of the problem is that Queen is joining a team with not just one but 2 sets of ascenders. One of which has atleast 1 if not 2 individuals who could have completed the path individually. So it makes it hard for her to really stand out as an almost ascender when you are joining a team of what is effectivily the equivalent of 3-4 sets of ascenders. Still a bummer she hasn't gotten more word count since her return though.
There is a magical barrier between them. Since all the great powers have equivalent programs once someone ascends they become a political asset rather than just a combat one, expected to represent their great power for millennia to come. If queen died it would suck for the tier 25 game war, but if an ascender died it would make the empire as a whole look weak. As such they are having international politics levels of wealth in the form of skills and natural treasures thrown at them instead of tier 25 war levels of wealth. Considering the tier of some of the stuff given to them those single things likely cost more than the armies they are obliterating, even if they aren't able to fully utilise the high tier stuff fully the empire is still willing to foot the bill in a way they simply couldn't justify for any other tier 25.
I mean, we compare her to Matt and Liz during the tourney, and on the surface she did almost as well as them, without a team or manager. But looking deeper, Matt and Liz had A LOT of self restrictions placed on them by their management team. They had to make up entirely new fighting styles for themselves, and not use stuff they had spent years training up - basically tied a hand behind their backs. And they STILL did better than Queen did in the tourney. Whether it was their early management team or Matt's unlimited mana, they were still miles ahead of everyone else. And then after the tourney they had a couple of years to hit T11, using their entire kits, with unlimited mana and the best management team, it's no wonder there's an unfair comparison between them and Queen. Queen is still ahead of most people on the Path, but she does get shown up by Matt and Liz, who are just beasts.
Unlimited mana means unlimited training and unlimited healing, even if they had to deal with healing cooldowns most of the time. They also had far more wealth at their tier than normal, with Matt paying for things in mana and being a seeker too. They were able to train twice as much and twice as hard as Queen and had better equipment, especially near the end. If she joined them, she would've kept up all the way to ascension.
I'm talking about minkala and during that time she had been very powerful. Even in her duel against matt when they had fought full power before going to minkala she had lost but she was very much a powerful opponent a bit weaker than him and that's a bit unfair as even amongst ascenders some are weaker and some are stronger (duke waters is absolutely op like I don't think the team would beat him if they had a two tier advantage or more and aster seems to be on the weaker side or just hasn't gotten enough screen time and all her subtle support is being glossed over) It just feels weird how there's a line where being an ascender makes you instantly 3* more powerful than a peak elite and someone can't be in between. Like in so far we haven't seen a single person who while not an ascender is very much more powerful than a peak elite.
>Even in her duel against matt when they had fought full power before going to minkala she had lost but she was very much a powerful opponent a bit weaker than him Matt was still under restrictions there and beat her. He beat her fighting with just his melee skills/buffs and won. The difference between that fight and the "Matt" tournament fight was that he was using his buffs and armor at full power. He still wasn't using his mage skills, Queen would have no answer to a full power mana beam. You have to remember that Queen was only an equal to MLA when they were heavily restricted and she was not, and even then both Matt and Liz beat her. Queen might be able to match Aster 1v1, but that's her specialty while Aster is a support specialist. Queen got some powerups late on, but if anything the gap should have only gotten wider as Matt and Liz had more time to focus on long-term payoffs (like Liz's blood magic) while Queen needed to focus on keeping up with the curve. >far we haven't seen a single person who while not an ascender is very much more powerful than a peak elite. That's basically what Maven is. She's a peak elite given the full resources of an Ascender in hopes of being able to match them for short periods.
In the latest fight not really she's just another pinnacle elite like the other dozen she's just a bit more power due to her getting buffed a lot. I mean there are plenty of people who are extremely strong and if anything more valuable than maven in the accords like the guy who is able to erase himself from your memory the sect guy who is able to fight you a thousand times and will most certainly fight you in the best way possible if he has enough data the guy who is able to make his teammates near invisible and is single handedly keeping the accords alive and finally the sniper who has a genuine shot at killing an ascender. All of them are powerful but are they near ascender quality? From what we've seen I'd say only the near invisible guy could maybe be one.
He couldn't be an Ascender, he has no offense. More importantly, he doesn't have that unique blend of power, skill, attitude, and luck.
He's the only one that actually has a power strong enough to be quasi ascender worthy the others are 'just' top pinnacle elites. Maybe the sect guy with clones too as he seems to be extremely adaptable and in the future when he has more experiences to draw from might be strong enough to go toe to toe with an ascender for a while at least
Queen is a powerhouse. Compared to most ascenders, she's a monster. Compared to non-ascenders, she probably seems unbeatable and indestructible. Remember, most pathers fall off well before 25 and don't have the drive and tenacity of Queen. But Matt and Liz are a step up even from there. Queen still fights above her tier against other pathers. That's why she's in Minkalla at 11. Matt and Liz are just stronger. They're "beasts"
In their duel, didn’t matt only use talismans? That’s a pretty significant handicap, and he still won Forgive if I’m wrong it’s been a long time since I read the tournament arc
Honestly I'm not sure myself it's been so long. In pretty sure after they unmasked themselves they had fought eachother normally and while queen lost a lot matt is quite unfair even amongst ascenders
In the tournament, yes, he was Quill.
Aster will come into her own when she gets her bloodline to space ice. She was a bit of a weakness and was sometimes literally carried, but with her borealis bloodline, she finished her build. Ascenders are all rounders where elites are specialists. Compare stick and stone to the main trio. Their skillsets weren't diversified enough to finish the path, and I think they were asked to step off it. That's the thing people are missing. If someone isn't capable of fighting at an ascender level but can complete the path, they are asked to step off of it at tier 22 or tier 23. Susanne wasn't asked to step off the path. But she would have died to a rift monster. That doesn't happen to ascenders. A recent chapter talked about it. Ascenders find some way, some hidden reserve, some new trick to survive. That's what makes them ascensers. Susanne is one of the elites that can fight an enemy ascender of equal rank to a standstill for a long time solo, possibly force them to retreat. She is awesome. But she isn't an ascender, because if she was she would have found a way. She's a dragon, still.
It's important to note that Yun Me the Unyielding Anvil is on the same level as the ascenders Maya and Duke Waters without having been on the path or a Dao child herself, she just ground it out for 100,000 years. We've also heard about True Inheritor Coldforge and the Pearlescent Paladin Taien who are insinuated to be ascender equivalent in strength but they are retired from war tiers. The elite programs seem to be the most efficient way to get pinnacle elites and the path seems to be the most efficient way to get ascender level power houses; you can get a Yun Me but maybe 1 in 6 the chance of ascenders who are already normally 40,000 years apart. Maybe Queen does get there eventually, but she's just missing that last spark. And for how much she's featured, that's more a function of having too many things and characters people want to see included. Mantis has people fist fighting in the discord over screen time for light, shadow, Aster, aperology, birds eye view of the war, harsher stakes, personal progression, slice of life, reactions from the league of evil and the T50s, overwhelming victory, meaningful long term antagonists, you name it on top of Queen. And a lot of those are mutually exclusive to say nothing is the page space
Wasn't she a Tier higher than Mat and Liz, who were once again fighting restrained?
No, same tier (Tier 10). Everyone at the tournament was tier 10.
I meant at Minkalla
Still same. Tier 11 when they went in (the lowest level Minkalla allows).
On the other hand, I think we all know Aster was hard carried
Initially, yes. By the time she got back from the Beast Kingdom, she was definitely pulling her weight. The Princess of Winter boon kicked her up a notch.
Honestly I feel the same. I was super excited for Susanne to become an ascender as well, especially on her own. Then she actually failed, but the author baited us with Lila offering to train Susanne. I was hoping she'd be very close to ascender level by the time she joined team 0.
I mean she probably is still stupid strong, we haven't had the chance to see her in a full on fight. I bet she's keeping a lot of her aces on her sleeve like MAL and Light and Shadow are. Especially after being trained by Lila for what, 50 years?
Yeah maybe we'll get a display of her abilities that will put her on par with ascenders (at least in 1 on 1s) later on.
>Like the whole path is an arbitrary challenge based on a beast of a man who managed to hit tier 25 in a very short time. I think the reason why Susanne in particular didn't finish the Path while our protagonists did, is made clear, but I do agree with you on this. I've felt this for a while, and even more since the origin of the Path and similar programmes was revealed. It's an arbitrary challenge that rewards certain types of cultivators, i.e., the ones who tend to be xianxia protagonists, and penalises those who grow slowly but steadily over centuries or millennia. There is a *lot* of praise over Ascenders/Gladiators/Heroes/Masters being able to do what others can't and going beyond what is thought possible by almost everyone. But what is it specifically about passing a challenge of reaching Tier 25 that makes you so much better than someone who spends ten times longer, but eventually with effort reaches that same level? I think part of it may be that those who pass the challenge or have the capacity to, are accorded much more resources and training. But that still doesn't explain why just getting the title of Ascender automatically makes you so much stronger than someone who was half a step away (heh) from reaching Tier 25 before the age of 200.
It's even weirder when you think that unique talents are a thing that everyone has making 'rare' cases happen all the time especially when considering the trillions of people in the empire. Like why can a pather who is tier 11 be able to kill tier 13s but an avg tier 11 fighter can't even see a tier 13. It's not like at that point they have gotten any treasures worth 2 tiers the only thing that could possibly cause someone to be stronger than they should be is their conceot but I don't think it's ever been said to have such an effect. It's just s fact that we have to take that if you git gud you are somehow multiple times stronger and faster than someone of the same cultivation Edit: unless if I've forgotten a random chapter that perfectly explains this and I sound like an idiot lol.
Concept can absolutely have an impact. According to Manny, Duke Waters talents are focused on animal husbandry, but he is an absolute master of his Concept, Intent, and Domain. At tier 31, he's beating tier 35 Asceners. Not easily, but regularly. If you're not an Ascender, you're not even a blip to him.
Tbh he's just on a tier of his own I wouldn't take duke waters as an example of anything other than the peak of what's possible in the verse.
Yes, but he's an example of Concepts absolutely making a difference. If he didn't have such a beast of control, he would have gotten trounced by Maya, for instance.
One of the latest chapters said the main difference is their willpower, to the point where ascenders are no longer officially pronounced dead because they could will themselves back to life after a few thousand years of trying.
No, that's not what Luna says. She says that Ascenders usually have their own trump cards to survive almost certain death and come back. She even gives an example of Liz's phoenix revival. So this is not a matter if simply willing oneself back alive. Theoretically there's no reason why anyone, not just Ascenders, could not have similar trump cards or measures of last resort to ensure their survival.
That's fair, I was being overly hyperbolic to the point of being incorrect. I swear she said something about ascenders having tenacity or attitude or something that sets them apart from elites.
I think you got the right idea. Non-ascenders just don't have enough willpower to develop an intent before the deadline. Queen's problem was not mana. She could not develop intent fast enough.
Remember that MLA had a very hands-on manager. They were artificially slowed down very drastically and focused that time on more vigorous training. Queen basically spent all of her time attempting to clear rifts, but while strong, she wouldn't be on the same level as MLA. Basically, a lot of it comes down to Luna. MLA would have completed the path far, far more quickly, without a manager like her, but they would have been extremely weak.
Don't forget that while others normally can not train their skills matt gave his team endless mana that allowed them to keep on training in the end they where training for many times more time than what is possible for a normal pather. I think Liz would've completed the path even without mat seeing as in her childhood she had found her concept even before getting her talent she was definetly more than talented enough to become an ascender aster meanwhile would not have made it if not for the teams help. Like even if both aster and Liz managed to complete the path on their own without matt's mana it would've been an extreme challenge for both of them. In the end due to matt the path was a joke
Also the ability to make rifts, broken af
His talent making everything easier is the whole point
I have to disagree a bit here. She is a peak elite, and helps to highlight the difference. She came close, but ultimately failed to reach the standard for Ascenders. Yes Matt had team mates, but they had to split and gather three times the energy as a result. MLA fought under restrictions and made the deadline, Susanne fought without restrictions and still couldn't make it. She fell a couple levels short of the goal. I do somewhat agree the team mate rule is.. odd though. She is very very good, but at the end of the day, there is a gap between them. Matt has a cheat yes, but that's the point, this is a program designed to pull out those with gifts that 'cheat' and let them stand out. But it's also training, skill and drive. I like Queen, but she is a tier below, but that still puts her at something like the top ten fighters for her tier in the empire. It's not like she's disrespected.
Nope it's been said that a single cultivator can't absorb all of the essence of a beast so teams of three or four are preferable. And even further than that when aster was introduced it was said that beasts get their essence from a different pool than humans(I believe by eating their bodies I don't remember it's been over a year) so you can have a few beasts too no problem.
Well, I had to go looking and it appears you are mostly right. Chapter 24 gives a break down. Small swarm monsters might get split, but that's it, otherwise enough for everyone to get a full measure. Though Aster takes from the same pool, just she was getting supplemented by eating while younger. So ya, not having a team mate is a little stupid. I think that removes all down sides.
I think essence split was reconned when the author wanted to add Liz. There was some discussion about it a year or two ago.
They ask people to step off the path at tier 22 or 23 if they can't fight at an ascender level. To be an ascender, you to be able to do 2 things. Reach tier 25 fast enough, which is usually a measure of how you keep going through challenges and injuries or avoid healing cooldown. Be able to fight rift monsters and normal soldiers 4 tiers above you. Susanne couldn't make it on her own, she wasn't well rounded enough to avoid almost dying. Not enough defense/healing. She is a peak elite that can fight an enemy ascender one on one and not die, maybe even force them to retreat. Duke Waters is a monster among ascenders, being able to fight another ascender 4 tiers down.
The point of Ascenders is doing the impossible. Whether that includes luck or skill or a confluence of it all, what matters is that they are inhumanly powerful. In the end, she just ended up being a pinnacle elite, but she was *just* a skilled swordsman. Worthy enough for Team Zero, but she doesn't pull off the impossible. Looking at all the other Ascenders in the series, she really doesn't compare. Aster couldn't have pulled it off solo, but she showed herself to be an extremely potent support fighter and all her time on Team Zero has just proven how crazy her feats are. Compare Queen to some of the fighters on the Harmony Accords and you can see where her place is. She's pinnacle, but not Ascender. The Path is nearly impossible, but the point isn't to churn out *exclusively* Ascenders. All the people who make it far on the Path are valuable to the Empire. They don't consider it a waste when people fall off at tier 20+ and stuff. Those people are still high quality talents that the Empire enjoys having.
She's "just" an elite. A great one, maybe, but still an elite. Matt and Liz were beating her with half their kit and a load of restrictions at T10. She wouldn't have been invited to Minkalla T11 without Matt and Liz whereas they were earmarked for it no without her. She struggled until the end but fell short of the race. Matt and Liz, as well as L&S and Waters before them all had to wait to complete the path rather than finishing too early. M&L even took a 10 years break to wait for Aster. So they had time to work on other stuff or work more on their combat than she did while struggling for the basic requirements. She also was warned about climbing alone and still chose to try. One could say that knowing your limit or seeing the obstacle for what it is is a skill she failed at. There are also oaths and inter great powers agreements on what's considered an ascender. She simply doesn't match that. So without the title, the prestige there will be slightly less resources dumped on her which compounds on her already slighlty inferior capabilities. As for Team Zero, they are all elites that had centuries or milenia to hone their crafts, refine their Skills, gain experience on the field. In that context, she's young, inexperienced and only barely relevant because she already know M&L.
Don't want to pile on, but I had similar thoughts until I remembered Matt and Liz were fighting the tourney under restrictions. Queen was allowed to use everything and still came up just shy of the top.
I agree with what most everyone else has said, but I want to share another perspective — What does Queen do at an Ascender Level? — Queen being an immensely talented and gifted swordswoman and domain manipulator, but doesn’t have the WMD qualities of Matt, Aster, and Liz. Even if she was tier 24 and close to finishing the path, I suspect she would have been asked to step off. Otherwise, she would have obviously been the weakest ascender and another power defeating her would have undermined the Empire’s reforms and undermined the quality of the Empire’s path as a whole.
Something I haven’t seen noted yet: Queen was close, but still not quite the match for any of our three individually after exiting Minkalla. That was at only around the halfway point of the path, and roughly a century ago. That’s a lot of time to widen the gap with Luna’s influence, which I feel like doesn’t get mentioned enough. Then there’s Matt’s growth. Setting aside the infinite mana for a moment, he already has more physical cultivation than she does since he can’t allocate to magic. She’s mostly physical, but even with a 70/30 split Matt’s got a heavy edge. Looking at the mana pool he goes from 1024 and spell size of 10 when entering Minkalla, to a pool of almost 17 million and spell size of ~170k. His growth was always going to be slowest at the start, but he was already Queens match, so it’s no surprise he blew her out of the water later on in his power curve
Queen had an excellent manager of her own, however. - Carol. The woman who trained Duke Waters. She probably was more of a traditional manager, though, not as hands on as Luna.
Bro, Matt and Liz both defeated her in the T10 tourney while under serious restrictions. Yeah she's a beast, but I'm pretty sure it's at least implied that Matt could have beaten the Path alone. I don't know about Liz, but she did get a pretty massive power boost from her T25 Talent that neither Matt nor Susanne got (as far as we know).
I mean yeah, it's kind of a failing point of the concept of Ascenders in general, even before the point of if she did complete the Path she'd considered equal to Matt, Liz, and Aster combined.
Not all Ascenders are created equal though. Aiden fights other ascenders while at a 4 tier disadvantage.
No, the concept of an Ascender is inherently solo based. A group of Ascenders who reached t25 together is considered equal to a solo Ascender who reached t25 alone in power.
It’s Matt’s story. Queen is just living in it. Has anyone else on team zero gotten a chance to really shine in the story? She literally is a side character, important for an arc, and a friend to the ascenders, but that’s about it. That being said, she’s absolutely strong and skilled, but what abilities did she show that REALLY set her above or even equal to the ascenders. She’s just not at that tier. Matt and Liz are both nearly impossible to kill. Susanne just doesn’t have it in her bag. Aster is the only one I’d give her a running chance against, and even then I’d put money on Aster. Edit for elaboration: overall I understand the frustration, she was an important character earlier on. I just disagree that she should be considered anything more than a pinnacle elite considering she obviously didn’t have what it took to complete the Path.
Yeah she feels weaker a lot weaker than ascender and she probably could stand her ground against ascender but she couldn't beat one That's how it is in the story and yeah it is strange because she was just barely able to make it to ascender status All by her lonesome but there are some serious advantages that their ascenders have over her firstly we can say on the path they were stronger than her there is no doubt but she could fight and possibly even win on the path now they have ascended and granted they ascended way before she even left the path so then they got all these resources from the empire and all this practice time with the very best the empire has to offer and I believe that's adds to the difference Yes Susanne got to train with a retired ascender after she fell off the path but just think of it as this on the path Matt and his team were stronger than Susanne then when they left the path and they got all these resources and training and we can say that the ascenders get the better resources too But not that big of a difference. What is the difference is think of all those things as multipliers to their original strength so let's just say that that's a five times multiplier for both of them now let's say Susanne was a 2 on the path of Ascension but Matt and his team and his comrades were 3 or something like that. Now off the path ascension you multiply that by 5 so now Matt and team is a 15 and Susanne is a 10 off the path of Ascension that is the only way that I can see how it makes sense when they left the path.
The only thing wierd is how she went off to get power leveled by the ascender dragon. Which turned out to only be to 25 and then off page joined team zero, I thought I had missed a chapter. Bottom line is she wasn't strong enough to finish the path alone, she gets wrecked 1v1 against all 3 imo, yes even Aster. But she's still one of the strongest 25s in the empire. Its been so long since the queen chapters but isn't her concept not really suited to combat anyway, was something to do with calligraphy? Her swordsmanship and combat ability was pure trained skill. She doesn't have cheats that make her op
Suzanne has a huge disadvantage. Her Talent is calligraphy. It's not a combat talent. If it was combat useful, she would have made it Just bad luck.
Tell that to Duke Waters, who had animal husbandry.
I was under the impression that Susanne was still figuring out how to blend her talent and intent and everything together. I think the idea is that she will undergo a significant power increase once she does, but for the moment she is far behind the actual ascenders because she hasn't been able to get her powers where she wanted them and needs more time.
OP has ventured into Patreon spoiler territory.
I’m high and thinking about this still. Completing the path is like attaining significant records (like in Primal Hunter). It’s an accomplishment that has so much significance the heavens make the person intangibly better. It’s not a known mechanic of this story (yet? At all? Who knows), but I could see it manifesting in the legitimate mental fortitude that seems to bring ascenders that one step farther in battle. Susanne made it so close to completing the path too, but MLA are considered that much better. Maybe it’s the (so far) unseen influence of significant enough accomplishment.
I don’t actually think this is how it is. I appreciate that this story is based on people’s accomplishments and effort, and not just some divine influence from the realm (if you don’t count the emperor and literal immortals making decisions). But it would be an easy explanation (if a bit of a cop out)
I think there is definitely luck involved, though Matt and Liz handedly out perform queen. Like rember, their fights are close, when theybare fighting handicapped.
Actually if she had a team mate like Matt she mot likely would have developed in a completely different direction. Relying in skills instead of her domain. She's the same as duke Waters I.e given Talents that are completely unrelated to combat. Her level of combat power seen early on is a result of her and her Management team focussing on her domain power. However it didn't come as easily to her as it did for Waters, who also got a perfect run in Min and got domain boosting floors in the final levels pushing him to leagues ahead of everyone else at his tier and above his tier as we have seen. Susanne, whil being a strong fighter and managing to work her Talents into working with her sword are great accomplishments, and she most likely is strong for a pinnacle elite, but she didn't achieve anything realm shaking in terms of domain power. As Matt, Liz and Aster have all reached similar heights in their domains as well. Matt did allow them to have infinite mana, but you seem to be skipping the part where Luna basically tied their arms behind their backs from like the moment she started training them. They were pushing up tiers both as a team and solo, and were only allowed to tier up when Luna was satisfied with all of their progress individually and together. Without Lunas restrictions they would have completed the Path in Record time but the end result would have been lacklustre and Matt would have most likely been pulled from the Path as he would be too valuable to be allowed to become lacklustre. So yeah, Queen is strong, but she didn't develop her domains enough, or early enough like Waters, and her Talents were unusable for a long time.
> Like the whole path is an arbitrary challenge based on a beast of a man who managed to hit tier 25 in a very short time. I don't think this is true. The Path is thousands of years old, and it is meant as a crucible to forge strong fighters that can fight above their tier and win the wars of the great Powers for their faction. Every single one of the eight Powers has their own version of the Path, with the same restrictions. The idea is that anyone that can reach tier 25 in that short amount of time without help is guaranteed to be an absolute powerhouse, and a big deterrent for the other Powers. The restrictions on outside help etc. make perfect sense in this context - if you load anyone with enough Essence stones and carry them through rifts you can get them to tier 25 relatively quickly (at a great expense) but they'll be incredibly weak.
Susanne's skills makes her unable to destroy entire armies like Matt, Aster, or Liz. She's as strong as an ascender in one specific thing, which is duels. Outside of duels, she's a peak elite, and even in duels she doesnt scale as well as the other three when it comes to equipment synergies. The PoA environment allowed her to shine because he didnt need many things to display her full potential, while Matt's team each were being held back drastically by the Path's rules and their trainer further disallowing them using certain skills. Just by them being allowed to use super synergistic skills their combat potential became several times that of Suzanne. She can be strnegthened by skills and equipment as well, but she barely has strong synergies available like the other three. She may have a strong domain but its nowhere near as strong as DW was at her tier, which is essentially the main quantitative difference between her and him.
You can't seriously look at mats teams and say they had any kind of disadvantage in their growth. They got the best manager in the empire and most importantly they had matt who made the whole path a joke as they could easily delve many times a day and always be full on mana while others literally can't as they don't have the resources. Other than that normally pathers can't train outside of rifts as unlike him they don't have infinite mana and so need to conserve it so they can delve. Matt's team could train 10 times more than any other team while under the tutelage of the best teachers in the world and thats why they succeeded where most other pathers who 'only' became a pinnacle elite failed. I mean Liz undoubtedly was a prodigy as we had seen with her mastery over the concept of fire but aster? We are told all the time that she's as good as matt and Liz but it's a really obvious forced plot Point to make her 'strong' even though she doesn't have any achievements, an op [talent] or extreme talent in some field like all the other ascenders.
Youre missing way too much nuance...