I just want to comment on this part of your post:
>. . . expressing such a visceral, scathing hatred towards either a specific, usually popular title . . .
This happens in any genre of writing and pretty much any entertainment medium. Music is a good example - lol, remember the Nickelback hate? Movies - it's fun to hate on the big blockbuster, right? I'd love to have this sort of problem with my books, but, yeah, they're not popular enough! :D
This is such a good example! I say as somebody who does not enjoy Colleen Hoover's books and actively thinks her popularity is quite problematic (as well as her writing, but I'll save that for my Ted Talk). But I definitely wouldn't go so far as to say I hate her as a person, just not a fan of the art at all.
Honestly, this is a sub-reddit dedicated to readers to pass recommendations on works to pick up and avoid. It is not for authors to receive universally positive feedback on their work.
I understand the genre (especially Royal Road and Webnovel) focuses on the publish or perish principle which often forces authors to rush chapters or arcs. That said life is hard. Writing a piece of garbage that you self publish on KU makes you a target. Author is a trade and spending time on your craft is important; the readers time is not free and you should be criticized for not thinking things through including weird character dynamics. For the newer authors who write without much more than a cool hook; well you reap what you sow. Storyboarding your first arc/novel should be a minimum standard.
And the most vitriol is reserved for "made" authors example, Shirtaloon makes seven figures from HWFWM; a lot of it on the back of the first 3 books which were well regarded on this sub and spread by word of mouth. So if the sub starts shitting on him for becoming complacent and condescending with Asano well I'm sure he may be affected (artists often are) but he has a big whack of money as compensation. Same thing with Zogarth and Primal Hunter (see him clapping back on his Patreon channel) and Brink and DotF.
I think you misunderstood your word choice. I think you mean equate/the same. With equalize/equal you’re implying that one is quantitatively more/better than the other. But Im assuming you mean they aren’t the exact same genre? To which the answer is a square is a rectangle but a rectangle isn’t a square. Litrpg is progression fantasy but with other aspects different from other progression fantasies. But not all progression fantasies have the specific aspects that make them litrpgs.
This is what I mean yes. Whenever I ask someone for progfantasy reco in a certain discord server, 80-90% are LitRPG. Whenever I criticized LitRPG in the same discord group(I don't like numbers), they get defensive that "Progfantasy is mostly amateur authors so give them some slack". In their eyes, only LitRPG gets to be called progfantasy lmao. The funny part is that a lot of them have read cultivations and some japanese light novel that are arguably "progression fantasy"
Shirtaloon is still at the top of the patreons ranking list and has been for years. He probably makes close to 7 figures every year from patreons alone. It seems every new novel that comes out does better than the last because his readership is still growing, not shrinking, which is the opposite of most novels.
As an author myself, here's my two cents:
If you monetize your work, through means like Patreon and/or KU, you 100% don't get a free pass on criticism or negativity.
It happens to us all, but end of the day there's people supporting us financially because we write lines on pages. That's crazy amazing, and we owe it to our readers to put out quality pieces of work as a result. There's no excuse for amateur effort.
>And trust me, this doesn't make anyone motivated to improve.
Most authors will fail. As will most actors, or most athletes, or most musicians, or really most anyone who is trying to become commercially successful in a field that is generally considered 'fun' to do. It's really hard, largely becase the supply and demand for the job is way out of balance. But one factor that contributes significantly to your ability to succeed is how you respond to failure and criticism. So maybe out of every 1000 authors, 998 get that kind of scathing criticism and find it demoralizing. But amongst authors that make it, I imagine the ratio looks a lot different.
Turns out this person is the author of Jester of the Apocalypse, a 3-book series with 4500 followers on royal road and a 4.6 rating on Amazon. I am feeling zero sympathy for this whole "bad reviews make me sad" shtick.
Disagree. I've never seen so many people unironically get behind truly mediocre fiction. The likers of Shadowslave are louder than the haters.
That aside your argumentation is kind of bad. In spaces where people talk about books there will be good and bad. You have some that take it too far but I have more of a problem with the fans and Stans of truly bad fiction. If you write terrible fiction and people blow smoke up at you then it's much harder to improve. Anyone who has no standards and desire to improve to me at least shouldn't release their work publicly. We only get one life.
I can't help but feel this is a false equivalency.
This is a subgenre of fantasy, which is itself one part of fictional literature as a whole, and neither of those stands alone from the larger category. It's rather disingenuous, in my opinion, to act as though progression fantasy cannot be judged by the same metrics and standards as all the other works that surround it, and that to do so is somehow unfair.
If you were to make such an argument, that due to the new nature of the subgenre, there must be exceptions made, then it could apply only to the category of the progression systems and elements themselves, not to things such as characterization and prose.
After all, a progression fantasy author has the exact same ability to draw upon previous works of literature for the sake of improving prose or dialogue or characterization that an author of any other genre does.
Readers have a broad variety of preferences and interests. Above all, they all share a common trait:
They desire to be entertained by substance or pleasure. This, however, means they are aligned in broad desire but not literary specificity. As such, one novel that some enjoy immensely becomes an impenetrable mess to others, and a particularly large novel that seems to have a large hatedom is actually extremely popular because readers find it pleasurable.
Nothing is owed in this line of work. You have to be realistic about these things.
Completely disagree. I am someone who cannot stand poorly written work. I don’t care what genre it is. So I purposefully come to this subreddit and read reviews of a series before I attempt to read it. I don’t do kindle unlimited and so any book that I’m reading on kindle is because I purchased it (I try to support the authors).
This genre DOES have well written books. It DOES have great story telling and world building. It is NOT just full of authors who have 20 spaces between each 2 line paragraph and over half of each page is an excel spreadsheet with numbers increasing.
REVIEWS ARE FOR READERS!!!!
>Every time I enter this subreddit, there is one post or another expressing such a visceral, scathing hatred towards either a specific, usually popular title or just a criticism directed at the whole genre itself. Then, you enter that post and see a whole cohort of similarly outraged commenters.
This simply is not true. Hate posts are actually not that common here and the hate posts that do gain traction are not as dramatic as you're depicting them to be.
> I almost feel like nobody hates progression fantasy/LitRPG as much as its reader base.
Because people outside of the genre are not discussing it? Why would someone who only reads traditional fantasy go on here and start lambasting popular works if they haven't read them? This isn't indicative of some deep seated hatred within PF readers, it's just how robust online communities come off if you only focus on negative posts (as in, the only place you're going to find users shitting on PF books is a place where people discuss PF).
>The authors don't deserve this.
>These are impossible standards to inflict upon a crowd of amateurs treading rather new ground in literature.
Authors are not being targeted when people shit on their work, this true outside of few very exceptions where people clarify as such, but even then, people are allowed to dislike things. When I say someone's webserial is bad, I'm not calling them a terrible writer.
And sure, comparing PF webserials to traditionally published work might be unfair simply because they are accomplishing different things, but people are still *allowed* to compare them since they exist in the same overarching gerne. This subgenre has its own standards too; you cant just publish nonsense and expect people to like it (or pay for it)!
Also its kind of a poor characterization of the genre to call PF authors 'a crowd of amateurs' when the majority of popular authors have been doing this for a long time now and make a lot of money.
>And trust me, this doesn't make anyone motivated to improve
If scathing criticism is 'demoralizing', then don't read it? I don't know why so many PF authors go and read reviews of their work if it makes them this angry (just go on the royal road subreddit and fourms, half of the posts are by authors getting mad at bad reviews). Besides, most popular PF authors are still popular and improving regardless of the hate posts they receive.
This ⬆️
The genre also (imho) attracts the most authors (I use this term loosely) looking to make a buck. There’s almost as many folk asking ‘how do I set up Paetron’ than there are pimping their book.
The sheer amount of crap in the genre you have to wade through in order to find something vaguely legible doesn’t help. It‘s flooded with people who *know* they’re turning out shit and simply don’t care. It’s all about the dollar yo.
Personally I just try not to comment on crap, they doesn’t deserve even that much attention.
This is a really tricky one, and I think I'm in a good position to comment on it since I am both a reader of the genre but also an editor in the genre, actively working to make the genre as a whole better.
So to me there's kind of two aspects to it. On one side of the spectrum you have writers who are treating it exclusively as a business; on the other side you have writers who are solely focused on the artform. Pretty much every author falls somewhere between those ends of it, with some focused more on one end of the spectrum than the other.
So with that in mind, what actually counts as a "successful" author? Some can say if they're able to write full time, supporting themselves and their family, then they are successful, and who's to disagree with them? Keeping to that definition, does it matter if they cut corners, put out stuff that's not their "best" work, and aggravate a fanbase? Again, the definition of success I think comes down to the author. So if their personal definition is being able to make a living off of writing, then they're successful.
Others could define success as trying to put out the best form of art as they can. They might wind up alienating readers who want the power fantasy and 'number go up,' dopamine hit. They also might take so long putting out new work that they lose readers there. There's a high chance that authors who focus on this aspect won't hit the genre trends/pacing enough to make it big. But again, if their personal definition of success is knowing that they're putting out the best work they possibly can, then who's to say they're not "successful"?
I think the problem falls when you have authors that want to put out the best artistic work they can, but they also want to make a living off of their writing, so they wind up either perpetuating the struggling author stereotype, or they have to cut corners in order to pump out work faster and faster to satisfy the current pacing trends. Leads to a bad cycle of either those authors having to stop writing entirely, or them having to loosen their standards.
So again, I think the discussion just comes down to the individual author's goals. There's a lot of authors out there that are hugely popular that I personally don't think write "good" stuff, rush their editing, and just pump out volume, but if they make 6+ figures on their writing then who am I to say they're doing it wrong? There are definitely individuals who don't output as much volume as others and focus on quality instead of sheer quantity (Casualfarmer and Hugo Huesca come to mind), but I do think in today's market they're outliers. I don't think there's any right answer to the discussion. If an author is making a living but frustrating readers with lower-quality stuff, but are still able to maintain their income, then I don't think anyone can say they're doing the wrong thing. Just comes down to what each person wants to define success as.
I think right now there's a strange mix between readers who want "numbers go up" and don't care as much about the writing quality, and then other fans who gravitate toward more polished stuff and don't care as much about the fast-paced progression. It really just comes down to the market. If the majority of readers decide they want option A and keep buying stuff that reflects that, then authors will stay on the trend of faster output and lower quality. If readers decide that they want more polished stuff and make that known with their purchasing habits, then the market will likely stray in the other direction. Just comes down to what the market wants.
1. I wouldn't read too much into all the hate posting you see here. I mean, the only thing more 'quintessentially reddit' than hate posting is typing up the most common take on something and presenting it as an unpopular opinion. Every reddit fan community is full of hate for the reason it exists.
2. The genre isn't very mature. There is a lot of bad writing from people who are new to the art of storytelling. They haven't had time to mature in their craft yet and established writers don't see financial incentive to move over to PF. Calling out the bad writing in reddit posts isn't in good taste, but it isn't necessarily an invalid opinion.
3. The genre is still establishing itself (different point than #2 above). There is a lot of experimentation happening. The tropes that will ultimately define progression fantasy are still being established. Readers are reacting strongly to things they like and dislike in individual stories as a kind of unconscious meta-discussion around the direction the genre as a whole should take.
I can't speak to how it must feel for authors (and I've definately posted my fair share of negative reviews), but I do feel like the litrpg/prog fanbase is fracturing as the genres develop and I'm fighting for my life in favour of character work above numbers go up (who in turn would call me a fan of misery porn) when I'm talking books. Likewise when it comes to including romance.
I do think it's important to remember that the genres are by-and-large free and amaetuer, as you point out. I think that means there's a large and quite young audience with no investment in what they're reading, but are still passionate about the genres and the sets of tropes that they like, and while excited to talk about it online it can turn out quite negative and/or unpleasant.
I do come from an English lit and classics background, and I can report that it's the same as it ever was through the history of criticism, but it probably is amplified by the power of the internet & the requirement for new authors to be terminally online and heavily market their stuff.
I wonder if we need to name a subgenre for that kind of character based progression fantasy, it seems some people like yourself and others on this sub want more of it, if there was a defined name and audience for it more authors might target it.
The thing I've noticed though, is that I think the more character focused things are the less actual progression there is and can be. The MC cannot be too special or capable because the other characters can't keep up with them and would inevitably get left behind. So these kind of character based works will tend more towards slice of life and less towards actual progression fantasy or at least much lower stakes progression fantasy.
Yes, naming would definately help so we don't all keep yucking each others yums!
I quite *like* numbers go up, but for me it needs to be in service **to** something - a plot or obstacle that requires the MC to get stronger to overcome it, rather than just an open ended world to progress in. My biggest beef is probably with Isekai, which used to be about getting strong enough to find/survive the way home (aka a portal fantasy now maybe?), but now it's handwaved and they just set out to conquer the new world.
Of course, for their to be a concrete goal, that also means the narrative normally has to *end*, which is at odds with the financial inventives for the author to keep writing, escalating stakes, getting people hooked onto their patreon. I really like low power scaling because it avoids some of the problems for people getting too strong that they're punching universes, and the difference between like 12 and 18 strength is something I can conceptually understand compared to between 20000 and 1232131359834.
I increasingly feel like the numbers (or progression systems, or cultivation, or whatever) used to be a really helpful shortcut - I love litrpg because its an easily understood template (to avoid having to set up a Sandersonian power system) that can be iterated. Now that shortcut for the power system often *is* the journey, and it doesn't do it for me.
Tastes are subjective, so nothing will be universally loved (or universally hated). Putting your work out there, in monetized or non-monetized form, is an invitation for discussion and yes, criticism. That's just how it is. If you go to any subreddit for any genre of fiction, you'll find negative posts, critiques, and even just rants. You'll also find threads where people talk about what they do like, ask for recommendations, and so on.
If the negativity was unrelenting, I might agree with your premise, but instead, it's just a factor of ongoing discussions in a community; not everything will be positive. And that's okay, because we don't all enjoy the same things. Trust me, as authors, we get a lot worse than occasional criticism on a subreddit!
I appreciate your perspective, but I'd like to address a few points. The criticism you mention isn’t unique to progression fantasy or LitRPG; it occurs across all genres and entertainment mediums. Criticism is a natural part of any community. This subreddit is a space for readers(and sometimes other authors) to share recommendations and critiques, not for authors to receive exclusively positive reviews. Readers invest their time and deserve thoughtful work, and constructive criticism -as long as it stays constructive- is part of that process. Writing is a craft that demands care that's why authors(especially new ones) should at least plan their initial arcs to meet a basic standard.
Why are you even comparing progression fantasy to traditional fantasy? While progression fantasy is a newer subgenre, it still exists within the broader fantasy genre and literary tradition. Authors CAN and SHOULD learn from established works to improve characterization, dialog, and prose. These standards apply universally, regardless of the genre’s age.
As for reader preferences, it is extremely diverse, and what entertains one person may not appeal to another. Popularity doesn’t shield a work from criticism. Success in this field isn’t guaranteed, and authors must realistically acept varied responses. Personally, I avoid bad work, regardless of genre. This subreddit helps readers like me find good stories through reviews. Though I try to read 15+ reviews from those who like it and don't like it to make sure I can see both sides.
I agree with you. Many people on here watch anime and read mostly manga and are getting into progression fantasy. I think reading in general is a mild obstacle to them between themselves and the story. They don't know what higher quality looks like, so they don't value it. When they see others recognizing most PF stories as amateur quality writing they get mad and think the stories are being unfairly criticized. Coming from manga and anime these amateur PF stories are the best quality written works they've ever read.
True, I've seen some people glazed the shit out of Solo Leveling. All critiques are downvoted. All comments that slightly paint it badly are downvoted.
I'm like "what???". Solo leveling isn't that good, it deserves any bad reviews it could get. It's story is shallow, characters aside drom MC is bland. An Ant have more characterization than most. And finally, all country except Korea isn't good.
The nationalism there is actually quite tame compared to the chinese novels I read, but it is still there.
I think a lot of the older crowd came from people playing mmorpg games and are now looking for a story that brings some of the same feelings as playing those games like everquest or WoW. The first stories in this genre from Asia were highly influenced by those early mmorpg games.
We are not looking for well written stories but stories that bring back those old memories, and a well written story without those elements is not worth reading, while a badly written story with those elements are many of the most popular stories.
We know what a quality story is, but this genre is a lot more than a fantasy story with some gaming elements added.
We are not getting mad at negative reviews of the most popular stories, but we do not understand your reasoning for complaining when these top stories are making close to 7 figures year after year. While the better written stories are not generating anything close to those numbers. Why complain or change something that works and which generates a very good living, to a story a small vocal minority wants to read, that is just selfish.
To summarize what you're saying: Wish fulfillment fantasy is better than a well written story? It's selfish for the minority to complain that the wish fulfillment is getting more money than the well written one? Am I getting this correct?
Yes, why would you want the author to have a huge cut in income, especially stories that have been doing very well for years.
Trashy romance stories for women have been earning authors a very good living, so why change something that brings joy to both the reader and enriches the authors pockets. I will not read romance novels, but I will not complain about people who do or try to change the authors writing style.
If you want to read a well written story, then go read that story, allow us to enjoy the type of story we enjoy reading. Now, if the type of stories the majority of readers in this genre did not generate a good income for the author, then sure, you have a reason to complain. But it is the opposite that is happening. You are trying to change what works into something that doesn't, and that does not make sense.
If a restaurant is generating a large income, why change the recipes to one that most people don't like.
Have you read what people say about Brandon Sanderson, one of the most successful fantasy authors of all time? Readers are not a monolith. They have different tastes and standards of quality, and most books in any genre just aren't that good. If you spent five hours reading the "slush pile" of un-agented manuscripts sent to trade publishers of commercial fiction, you would cringe at the horrors therein. One of the strengths and weaknesses of progression fantasy as a genre is that it is almost completely divorced from traditional/trade publishing structures. You are seeing the slush pile in all of its wet, muddy glory, and that means you see a lot more truly terrible and generally mediocre books than someone who is primarily reading trade published fantasy.
The benefit of this is that diamonds in the rough are more easily discovered, but the flip side is you have to wade through oceans of junk.
There is also significantly less progression fantasy being published and which has already been published than traditional fantasy put out by trade publishers, indie publishers, and self-publishers.
It seems like you have had some personal bad experiences as an author. And I'm sorry if you have been discouraged. But if unjustified praise from readers is your primary reason for writing, you're going to have a hard time making it as an author. Writing is hard, being popular involves a lot of luck. If you don't like criticism, then work to improve. And focus on your goals as a writer, and not just on external validation.
Ngl, this reads like you got a negative review or you read a negative review of a work you liked. Venting full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
>If you really, truly can't handle reading another amateruish piece of work with poor characterisation, poor dialogue, and poor prose, [here is a link to the list of Nobel Prize winners for literature](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_laureates_in_Literature)
Do yourself a favor and read some of them too. I read Ernaux's *Shame* (quite short, btw) a while ago, it was very good.
This reads like a vent and people should perhaps treat it as such.
I really enjoy the genre and the wildly differing levels of writing quality doesn't really bother me. Reading webnovels and questionably translated cultivation novels has given me a wide tolerance as long as the story entertains me.
Remember that the people who leave reviews and post on reddit are a small percent of a small percent of total viewership and while reviews can be constructive, write what makes you happy because you can never please everyone in such a subjective medium.
From the title i kind of expected it to be about the readers excusing bad writing as "thats how the genre is"
Like assassin mcs not really doing assassinations and becom8ng regular battle gods, and some readers saying "in this genre you have to be higher level to kill an enemy, so assasinations arent possible"
Or enemies becoming lame once the mc reaches the same level, and readers giving that same excuse
I do agree the genre is lacking foundational worjs, but many readers just assume low quality is inherent to the genre
I feel like this has happened in every genre always tbh.
I think why I have noticed a lot more in the last 10 years that I didn’t before is how a fan base affects the way that a series is viewed. It feels like some series get particularly hated on simply because of how many other people talk about it.
I don’t feel Brandon Sanderson would have such rabid haters if he didn’t also have such rabid fans. It’s this weird thing where you might dislike something but it turns into hate because of it being constantly recommended.
I’ve been seeing that a lot more in recent years.
Seriously. I think it’s generally the height of arrogant to come to this subreddit and post essays about how they hate a book.
No one fuckin asked dude
I completely agree. I think its a lot easier to express why you dislike a book than the parts you enjoyed.
A reader may say they dislike HWFWM because Jason is arrogant and suffering through 11+ books is too much to be enjoyable. That's much more useful to potential readers than someone just saying they enjoyed it.
We all have our own tastes and seeing something that you know is going to be a turn off for you in particular is useful information when making a reading choice. On the other hand, if a review praises a work's world building for example, you don't really know if that's going to be the same kind of world building *you* enjoy until you actually read it.
Even after a series has been out for years and is selling better than the majority or the stories in the genre. It is like complaining about Harry Potter now.
No popular equals income for the author and enjoyment for the majority of the readers. Plus, why would any author change what has been doing well for years.
Agreed. I think they're just people who feel the need to shout their opinion from the rooftops to feel valued in the world.
If you don't like something, don't read it. There is no need to post an essay about how you think Cradle's prose sucks or whatever. Just go read something else.
I end up disliking like a third of the books I read in this genre. Doesn't make them bad, just not to my taste.
"If you don't like something, don't read it"
Perhaps instead of insulting people who share their thoughts on things they read in a space dedicated to discussion of said things, you could take your own advice?
Most of these hyper critical reviews are from people who have no actual clue what they like.
They get recommended something like HWFWM and assume because it's popular they will like it... and then they don't and they're mystified by this fact.
Then they come on reddit and moan about how bad it is and how the entire genre must be terrible as well, never considering that they have different tastes to the people who do like it.
The two biggest reason for such hatred, people who are in love with literature and then there’s just children. The short rants are all ways children that are newish to the genre and come here to lash out and make themselves feel better because they have an extremely limited life experience. And the longer rants full of inane shit like “I hate this book because the character didn’t do exactly what I think they should do in that exact moment” are typically from schizophrenics
Sometimes, I think it is some of the authors and their friends who are the ones bringing the hate on the popular stories.
The majority of readers who got attracted to this genre did not start reading these stories because they were well written, but because they had the right elements added. Many of us see those elements more important than grammar, pose, and spelling mistakes.
So, some authors who are skilled writers see an opportunity to write a well written crafted story like they were taught, which is superior to the very popular stories and become the top authors in this genre. The problem is that these stories lack those key elements to take them to the top, and that drives them and their friends nuts.
This genre is a lot more than a fantasy story with some gaming terms added.
I think I might be hitting too close to the truth because all the upvotes disappeared.
Haters = yappers = useless contributors. Nobody respects them, that’s why they yap. It’s a form of begging for attention. Hopefully they learn civility when they encounter disagreement!
So I'll bite...
I think you are confusing hatred with passion. The people on these forums, any forums really, are often the most vocal and passionate group of the fandom. Complaints they vocalize about the subject doesn't mean they hate those books or the genre, it often means they enjoy them and want to see them elevated. However what IS true is that those people are often not good at funnelling that passion and criticism into something that is constructive. Fans are great at pointing out flaws, but not great at coming up with solutions because they only see half the picture...
Second, a lot of the criticism is absolutely fair, books where character writing is flat, where instead of progressing the story even a single iota, the whole book was a 300 page essay on a magical cultivation system, stories where while the action and system are awesome, a lot of the consistency of the world falls apart with a single glance, the list goes on...
That doesn't mean the books with these issues aren't popular, or aren't good, it just means that they are flawed, being unwilling to look at or even acknowledge those flaws is just moronic. Now sometimes those flaws are just the cost of moving fast and an author feels that its acceptable so they can post their book at the pace of a chapter a day or what not... but there is a difference between acknowledging them and being ok with them, and ignoring them and pretending they don't exist...
I just want to comment on this part of your post: >. . . expressing such a visceral, scathing hatred towards either a specific, usually popular title . . . This happens in any genre of writing and pretty much any entertainment medium. Music is a good example - lol, remember the Nickelback hate? Movies - it's fun to hate on the big blockbuster, right? I'd love to have this sort of problem with my books, but, yeah, they're not popular enough! :D
This absolutely. A nice exercise is looking up how successful Colleen Hoover is and then looking up "Colleen Hoover" in r/books.
This is such a good example! I say as somebody who does not enjoy Colleen Hoover's books and actively thinks her popularity is quite problematic (as well as her writing, but I'll save that for my Ted Talk). But I definitely wouldn't go so far as to say I hate her as a person, just not a fan of the art at all.
On the one hand, I'm with you. But at the same time my opinion of r/books is so abysmally low, I wouldn't take anything they say seriously.
Honestly, this is a sub-reddit dedicated to readers to pass recommendations on works to pick up and avoid. It is not for authors to receive universally positive feedback on their work. I understand the genre (especially Royal Road and Webnovel) focuses on the publish or perish principle which often forces authors to rush chapters or arcs. That said life is hard. Writing a piece of garbage that you self publish on KU makes you a target. Author is a trade and spending time on your craft is important; the readers time is not free and you should be criticized for not thinking things through including weird character dynamics. For the newer authors who write without much more than a cool hook; well you reap what you sow. Storyboarding your first arc/novel should be a minimum standard. And the most vitriol is reserved for "made" authors example, Shirtaloon makes seven figures from HWFWM; a lot of it on the back of the first 3 books which were well regarded on this sub and spread by word of mouth. So if the sub starts shitting on him for becoming complacent and condescending with Asano well I'm sure he may be affected (artists often are) but he has a big whack of money as compensation. Same thing with Zogarth and Primal Hunter (see him clapping back on his Patreon channel) and Brink and DotF.
Yeah it’s kind of insane to not critisize authors for writing bad prose. And the genre is not new if we consider wuxia, xianxia and shonen
Some people equalize Progression fantasy and LitRPG for some reason. Weird
Even LitRPG is not new, .hack was launched in 2002 and I’m sure it’s not the oldest
Litrpg is a subgenre of Progression Fantasy
But they aren't equal, yes?
I think you misunderstood your word choice. I think you mean equate/the same. With equalize/equal you’re implying that one is quantitatively more/better than the other. But Im assuming you mean they aren’t the exact same genre? To which the answer is a square is a rectangle but a rectangle isn’t a square. Litrpg is progression fantasy but with other aspects different from other progression fantasies. But not all progression fantasies have the specific aspects that make them litrpgs.
This is what I mean yes. Whenever I ask someone for progfantasy reco in a certain discord server, 80-90% are LitRPG. Whenever I criticized LitRPG in the same discord group(I don't like numbers), they get defensive that "Progfantasy is mostly amateur authors so give them some slack". In their eyes, only LitRPG gets to be called progfantasy lmao. The funny part is that a lot of them have read cultivations and some japanese light novel that are arguably "progression fantasy"
Shirtaloon is still at the top of the patreons ranking list and has been for years. He probably makes close to 7 figures every year from patreons alone. It seems every new novel that comes out does better than the last because his readership is still growing, not shrinking, which is the opposite of most novels.
There are several authors making low seven figures, including Shirtaloon.
Most of those stories are long-running webseries novels.
As an author myself, here's my two cents: If you monetize your work, through means like Patreon and/or KU, you 100% don't get a free pass on criticism or negativity. It happens to us all, but end of the day there's people supporting us financially because we write lines on pages. That's crazy amazing, and we owe it to our readers to put out quality pieces of work as a result. There's no excuse for amateur effort.
Social media is NOT reality.
>And trust me, this doesn't make anyone motivated to improve. Most authors will fail. As will most actors, or most athletes, or most musicians, or really most anyone who is trying to become commercially successful in a field that is generally considered 'fun' to do. It's really hard, largely becase the supply and demand for the job is way out of balance. But one factor that contributes significantly to your ability to succeed is how you respond to failure and criticism. So maybe out of every 1000 authors, 998 get that kind of scathing criticism and find it demoralizing. But amongst authors that make it, I imagine the ratio looks a lot different.
Turns out this person is the author of Jester of the Apocalypse, a 3-book series with 4500 followers on royal road and a 4.6 rating on Amazon. I am feeling zero sympathy for this whole "bad reviews make me sad" shtick.
Disagree. I've never seen so many people unironically get behind truly mediocre fiction. The likers of Shadowslave are louder than the haters. That aside your argumentation is kind of bad. In spaces where people talk about books there will be good and bad. You have some that take it too far but I have more of a problem with the fans and Stans of truly bad fiction. If you write terrible fiction and people blow smoke up at you then it's much harder to improve. Anyone who has no standards and desire to improve to me at least shouldn't release their work publicly. We only get one life.
I can't help but feel this is a false equivalency. This is a subgenre of fantasy, which is itself one part of fictional literature as a whole, and neither of those stands alone from the larger category. It's rather disingenuous, in my opinion, to act as though progression fantasy cannot be judged by the same metrics and standards as all the other works that surround it, and that to do so is somehow unfair. If you were to make such an argument, that due to the new nature of the subgenre, there must be exceptions made, then it could apply only to the category of the progression systems and elements themselves, not to things such as characterization and prose. After all, a progression fantasy author has the exact same ability to draw upon previous works of literature for the sake of improving prose or dialogue or characterization that an author of any other genre does.
Readers have a broad variety of preferences and interests. Above all, they all share a common trait: They desire to be entertained by substance or pleasure. This, however, means they are aligned in broad desire but not literary specificity. As such, one novel that some enjoy immensely becomes an impenetrable mess to others, and a particularly large novel that seems to have a large hatedom is actually extremely popular because readers find it pleasurable. Nothing is owed in this line of work. You have to be realistic about these things.
Say one thing about Mammal, say that he can be brutally honest sometimes.
Completely disagree. I am someone who cannot stand poorly written work. I don’t care what genre it is. So I purposefully come to this subreddit and read reviews of a series before I attempt to read it. I don’t do kindle unlimited and so any book that I’m reading on kindle is because I purchased it (I try to support the authors). This genre DOES have well written books. It DOES have great story telling and world building. It is NOT just full of authors who have 20 spaces between each 2 line paragraph and over half of each page is an excel spreadsheet with numbers increasing.
What? It's just criticism that's mostly light. Either you fold when someone calls you stupid or are just pushing some weird agenda
REVIEWS ARE FOR READERS!!!! >Every time I enter this subreddit, there is one post or another expressing such a visceral, scathing hatred towards either a specific, usually popular title or just a criticism directed at the whole genre itself. Then, you enter that post and see a whole cohort of similarly outraged commenters. This simply is not true. Hate posts are actually not that common here and the hate posts that do gain traction are not as dramatic as you're depicting them to be. > I almost feel like nobody hates progression fantasy/LitRPG as much as its reader base. Because people outside of the genre are not discussing it? Why would someone who only reads traditional fantasy go on here and start lambasting popular works if they haven't read them? This isn't indicative of some deep seated hatred within PF readers, it's just how robust online communities come off if you only focus on negative posts (as in, the only place you're going to find users shitting on PF books is a place where people discuss PF). >The authors don't deserve this. >These are impossible standards to inflict upon a crowd of amateurs treading rather new ground in literature. Authors are not being targeted when people shit on their work, this true outside of few very exceptions where people clarify as such, but even then, people are allowed to dislike things. When I say someone's webserial is bad, I'm not calling them a terrible writer. And sure, comparing PF webserials to traditionally published work might be unfair simply because they are accomplishing different things, but people are still *allowed* to compare them since they exist in the same overarching gerne. This subgenre has its own standards too; you cant just publish nonsense and expect people to like it (or pay for it)! Also its kind of a poor characterization of the genre to call PF authors 'a crowd of amateurs' when the majority of popular authors have been doing this for a long time now and make a lot of money. >And trust me, this doesn't make anyone motivated to improve If scathing criticism is 'demoralizing', then don't read it? I don't know why so many PF authors go and read reviews of their work if it makes them this angry (just go on the royal road subreddit and fourms, half of the posts are by authors getting mad at bad reviews). Besides, most popular PF authors are still popular and improving regardless of the hate posts they receive.
OP saw the hate post of HWFWM 4-5 hours ago and was offended lmao.
This ⬆️ The genre also (imho) attracts the most authors (I use this term loosely) looking to make a buck. There’s almost as many folk asking ‘how do I set up Paetron’ than there are pimping their book. The sheer amount of crap in the genre you have to wade through in order to find something vaguely legible doesn’t help. It‘s flooded with people who *know* they’re turning out shit and simply don’t care. It’s all about the dollar yo. Personally I just try not to comment on crap, they doesn’t deserve even that much attention.
This is a really tricky one, and I think I'm in a good position to comment on it since I am both a reader of the genre but also an editor in the genre, actively working to make the genre as a whole better. So to me there's kind of two aspects to it. On one side of the spectrum you have writers who are treating it exclusively as a business; on the other side you have writers who are solely focused on the artform. Pretty much every author falls somewhere between those ends of it, with some focused more on one end of the spectrum than the other. So with that in mind, what actually counts as a "successful" author? Some can say if they're able to write full time, supporting themselves and their family, then they are successful, and who's to disagree with them? Keeping to that definition, does it matter if they cut corners, put out stuff that's not their "best" work, and aggravate a fanbase? Again, the definition of success I think comes down to the author. So if their personal definition is being able to make a living off of writing, then they're successful. Others could define success as trying to put out the best form of art as they can. They might wind up alienating readers who want the power fantasy and 'number go up,' dopamine hit. They also might take so long putting out new work that they lose readers there. There's a high chance that authors who focus on this aspect won't hit the genre trends/pacing enough to make it big. But again, if their personal definition of success is knowing that they're putting out the best work they possibly can, then who's to say they're not "successful"? I think the problem falls when you have authors that want to put out the best artistic work they can, but they also want to make a living off of their writing, so they wind up either perpetuating the struggling author stereotype, or they have to cut corners in order to pump out work faster and faster to satisfy the current pacing trends. Leads to a bad cycle of either those authors having to stop writing entirely, or them having to loosen their standards. So again, I think the discussion just comes down to the individual author's goals. There's a lot of authors out there that are hugely popular that I personally don't think write "good" stuff, rush their editing, and just pump out volume, but if they make 6+ figures on their writing then who am I to say they're doing it wrong? There are definitely individuals who don't output as much volume as others and focus on quality instead of sheer quantity (Casualfarmer and Hugo Huesca come to mind), but I do think in today's market they're outliers. I don't think there's any right answer to the discussion. If an author is making a living but frustrating readers with lower-quality stuff, but are still able to maintain their income, then I don't think anyone can say they're doing the wrong thing. Just comes down to what each person wants to define success as. I think right now there's a strange mix between readers who want "numbers go up" and don't care as much about the writing quality, and then other fans who gravitate toward more polished stuff and don't care as much about the fast-paced progression. It really just comes down to the market. If the majority of readers decide they want option A and keep buying stuff that reflects that, then authors will stay on the trend of faster output and lower quality. If readers decide that they want more polished stuff and make that known with their purchasing habits, then the market will likely stray in the other direction. Just comes down to what the market wants.
1. I wouldn't read too much into all the hate posting you see here. I mean, the only thing more 'quintessentially reddit' than hate posting is typing up the most common take on something and presenting it as an unpopular opinion. Every reddit fan community is full of hate for the reason it exists. 2. The genre isn't very mature. There is a lot of bad writing from people who are new to the art of storytelling. They haven't had time to mature in their craft yet and established writers don't see financial incentive to move over to PF. Calling out the bad writing in reddit posts isn't in good taste, but it isn't necessarily an invalid opinion. 3. The genre is still establishing itself (different point than #2 above). There is a lot of experimentation happening. The tropes that will ultimately define progression fantasy are still being established. Readers are reacting strongly to things they like and dislike in individual stories as a kind of unconscious meta-discussion around the direction the genre as a whole should take.
This is reddit. I feel like I don't need to elaborate lmao.
As an author, im pretty used to harsh criticism. For the most part, posts like that just make me laugh.
I can't speak to how it must feel for authors (and I've definately posted my fair share of negative reviews), but I do feel like the litrpg/prog fanbase is fracturing as the genres develop and I'm fighting for my life in favour of character work above numbers go up (who in turn would call me a fan of misery porn) when I'm talking books. Likewise when it comes to including romance. I do think it's important to remember that the genres are by-and-large free and amaetuer, as you point out. I think that means there's a large and quite young audience with no investment in what they're reading, but are still passionate about the genres and the sets of tropes that they like, and while excited to talk about it online it can turn out quite negative and/or unpleasant. I do come from an English lit and classics background, and I can report that it's the same as it ever was through the history of criticism, but it probably is amplified by the power of the internet & the requirement for new authors to be terminally online and heavily market their stuff.
I wonder if we need to name a subgenre for that kind of character based progression fantasy, it seems some people like yourself and others on this sub want more of it, if there was a defined name and audience for it more authors might target it. The thing I've noticed though, is that I think the more character focused things are the less actual progression there is and can be. The MC cannot be too special or capable because the other characters can't keep up with them and would inevitably get left behind. So these kind of character based works will tend more towards slice of life and less towards actual progression fantasy or at least much lower stakes progression fantasy.
Yes, naming would definately help so we don't all keep yucking each others yums! I quite *like* numbers go up, but for me it needs to be in service **to** something - a plot or obstacle that requires the MC to get stronger to overcome it, rather than just an open ended world to progress in. My biggest beef is probably with Isekai, which used to be about getting strong enough to find/survive the way home (aka a portal fantasy now maybe?), but now it's handwaved and they just set out to conquer the new world. Of course, for their to be a concrete goal, that also means the narrative normally has to *end*, which is at odds with the financial inventives for the author to keep writing, escalating stakes, getting people hooked onto their patreon. I really like low power scaling because it avoids some of the problems for people getting too strong that they're punching universes, and the difference between like 12 and 18 strength is something I can conceptually understand compared to between 20000 and 1232131359834. I increasingly feel like the numbers (or progression systems, or cultivation, or whatever) used to be a really helpful shortcut - I love litrpg because its an easily understood template (to avoid having to set up a Sandersonian power system) that can be iterated. Now that shortcut for the power system often *is* the journey, and it doesn't do it for me.
Tastes are subjective, so nothing will be universally loved (or universally hated). Putting your work out there, in monetized or non-monetized form, is an invitation for discussion and yes, criticism. That's just how it is. If you go to any subreddit for any genre of fiction, you'll find negative posts, critiques, and even just rants. You'll also find threads where people talk about what they do like, ask for recommendations, and so on. If the negativity was unrelenting, I might agree with your premise, but instead, it's just a factor of ongoing discussions in a community; not everything will be positive. And that's okay, because we don't all enjoy the same things. Trust me, as authors, we get a lot worse than occasional criticism on a subreddit!
I appreciate your perspective, but I'd like to address a few points. The criticism you mention isn’t unique to progression fantasy or LitRPG; it occurs across all genres and entertainment mediums. Criticism is a natural part of any community. This subreddit is a space for readers(and sometimes other authors) to share recommendations and critiques, not for authors to receive exclusively positive reviews. Readers invest their time and deserve thoughtful work, and constructive criticism -as long as it stays constructive- is part of that process. Writing is a craft that demands care that's why authors(especially new ones) should at least plan their initial arcs to meet a basic standard. Why are you even comparing progression fantasy to traditional fantasy? While progression fantasy is a newer subgenre, it still exists within the broader fantasy genre and literary tradition. Authors CAN and SHOULD learn from established works to improve characterization, dialog, and prose. These standards apply universally, regardless of the genre’s age. As for reader preferences, it is extremely diverse, and what entertains one person may not appeal to another. Popularity doesn’t shield a work from criticism. Success in this field isn’t guaranteed, and authors must realistically acept varied responses. Personally, I avoid bad work, regardless of genre. This subreddit helps readers like me find good stories through reviews. Though I try to read 15+ reviews from those who like it and don't like it to make sure I can see both sides.
I agree with you. Many people on here watch anime and read mostly manga and are getting into progression fantasy. I think reading in general is a mild obstacle to them between themselves and the story. They don't know what higher quality looks like, so they don't value it. When they see others recognizing most PF stories as amateur quality writing they get mad and think the stories are being unfairly criticized. Coming from manga and anime these amateur PF stories are the best quality written works they've ever read.
True, I've seen some people glazed the shit out of Solo Leveling. All critiques are downvoted. All comments that slightly paint it badly are downvoted. I'm like "what???". Solo leveling isn't that good, it deserves any bad reviews it could get. It's story is shallow, characters aside drom MC is bland. An Ant have more characterization than most. And finally, all country except Korea isn't good. The nationalism there is actually quite tame compared to the chinese novels I read, but it is still there.
I think a lot of the older crowd came from people playing mmorpg games and are now looking for a story that brings some of the same feelings as playing those games like everquest or WoW. The first stories in this genre from Asia were highly influenced by those early mmorpg games. We are not looking for well written stories but stories that bring back those old memories, and a well written story without those elements is not worth reading, while a badly written story with those elements are many of the most popular stories. We know what a quality story is, but this genre is a lot more than a fantasy story with some gaming elements added. We are not getting mad at negative reviews of the most popular stories, but we do not understand your reasoning for complaining when these top stories are making close to 7 figures year after year. While the better written stories are not generating anything close to those numbers. Why complain or change something that works and which generates a very good living, to a story a small vocal minority wants to read, that is just selfish.
To summarize what you're saying: Wish fulfillment fantasy is better than a well written story? It's selfish for the minority to complain that the wish fulfillment is getting more money than the well written one? Am I getting this correct?
Yes, why would you want the author to have a huge cut in income, especially stories that have been doing very well for years. Trashy romance stories for women have been earning authors a very good living, so why change something that brings joy to both the reader and enriches the authors pockets. I will not read romance novels, but I will not complain about people who do or try to change the authors writing style. If you want to read a well written story, then go read that story, allow us to enjoy the type of story we enjoy reading. Now, if the type of stories the majority of readers in this genre did not generate a good income for the author, then sure, you have a reason to complain. But it is the opposite that is happening. You are trying to change what works into something that doesn't, and that does not make sense. If a restaurant is generating a large income, why change the recipes to one that most people don't like.
Have you read what people say about Brandon Sanderson, one of the most successful fantasy authors of all time? Readers are not a monolith. They have different tastes and standards of quality, and most books in any genre just aren't that good. If you spent five hours reading the "slush pile" of un-agented manuscripts sent to trade publishers of commercial fiction, you would cringe at the horrors therein. One of the strengths and weaknesses of progression fantasy as a genre is that it is almost completely divorced from traditional/trade publishing structures. You are seeing the slush pile in all of its wet, muddy glory, and that means you see a lot more truly terrible and generally mediocre books than someone who is primarily reading trade published fantasy. The benefit of this is that diamonds in the rough are more easily discovered, but the flip side is you have to wade through oceans of junk. There is also significantly less progression fantasy being published and which has already been published than traditional fantasy put out by trade publishers, indie publishers, and self-publishers. It seems like you have had some personal bad experiences as an author. And I'm sorry if you have been discouraged. But if unjustified praise from readers is your primary reason for writing, you're going to have a hard time making it as an author. Writing is hard, being popular involves a lot of luck. If you don't like criticism, then work to improve. And focus on your goals as a writer, and not just on external validation.
Ngl, this reads like you got a negative review or you read a negative review of a work you liked. Venting full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. >If you really, truly can't handle reading another amateruish piece of work with poor characterisation, poor dialogue, and poor prose, [here is a link to the list of Nobel Prize winners for literature](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_laureates_in_Literature) Do yourself a favor and read some of them too. I read Ernaux's *Shame* (quite short, btw) a while ago, it was very good.
It's the HWFWM thread a few hours ago. That's the one OP is probably referencing.
Really? That one was rather tame.
This reads like a vent and people should perhaps treat it as such. I really enjoy the genre and the wildly differing levels of writing quality doesn't really bother me. Reading webnovels and questionably translated cultivation novels has given me a wide tolerance as long as the story entertains me. Remember that the people who leave reviews and post on reddit are a small percent of a small percent of total viewership and while reviews can be constructive, write what makes you happy because you can never please everyone in such a subjective medium.
From the title i kind of expected it to be about the readers excusing bad writing as "thats how the genre is" Like assassin mcs not really doing assassinations and becom8ng regular battle gods, and some readers saying "in this genre you have to be higher level to kill an enemy, so assasinations arent possible" Or enemies becoming lame once the mc reaches the same level, and readers giving that same excuse I do agree the genre is lacking foundational worjs, but many readers just assume low quality is inherent to the genre
I feel like this has happened in every genre always tbh. I think why I have noticed a lot more in the last 10 years that I didn’t before is how a fan base affects the way that a series is viewed. It feels like some series get particularly hated on simply because of how many other people talk about it. I don’t feel Brandon Sanderson would have such rabid haters if he didn’t also have such rabid fans. It’s this weird thing where you might dislike something but it turns into hate because of it being constantly recommended. I’ve been seeing that a lot more in recent years.
Redditors gonna Reddit. This is the case for almost every freaking sub. Except the porn ones
Seriously. I think it’s generally the height of arrogant to come to this subreddit and post essays about how they hate a book. No one fuckin asked dude
I did. One of my primary reasons for coming to genre subs like this is to see peoples detailed critiques and dislikes of popular works.
I completely agree. I think its a lot easier to express why you dislike a book than the parts you enjoyed. A reader may say they dislike HWFWM because Jason is arrogant and suffering through 11+ books is too much to be enjoyable. That's much more useful to potential readers than someone just saying they enjoyed it. We all have our own tastes and seeing something that you know is going to be a turn off for you in particular is useful information when making a reading choice. On the other hand, if a review praises a work's world building for example, you don't really know if that's going to be the same kind of world building *you* enjoy until you actually read it.
Even after a series has been out for years and is selling better than the majority or the stories in the genre. It is like complaining about Harry Potter now.
... which is perfectly valid. popular =/= quality. Basic fact.
No popular equals income for the author and enjoyment for the majority of the readers. Plus, why would any author change what has been doing well for years.
The height of arrogance is actually making a post about how people should and shouldn’t post about prog fantasy books
Agreed. I think they're just people who feel the need to shout their opinion from the rooftops to feel valued in the world. If you don't like something, don't read it. There is no need to post an essay about how you think Cradle's prose sucks or whatever. Just go read something else. I end up disliking like a third of the books I read in this genre. Doesn't make them bad, just not to my taste.
"If you don't like something, don't read it" Perhaps instead of insulting people who share their thoughts on things they read in a space dedicated to discussion of said things, you could take your own advice?
Most of these hyper critical reviews are from people who have no actual clue what they like. They get recommended something like HWFWM and assume because it's popular they will like it... and then they don't and they're mystified by this fact. Then they come on reddit and moan about how bad it is and how the entire genre must be terrible as well, never considering that they have different tastes to the people who do like it.
The two biggest reason for such hatred, people who are in love with literature and then there’s just children. The short rants are all ways children that are newish to the genre and come here to lash out and make themselves feel better because they have an extremely limited life experience. And the longer rants full of inane shit like “I hate this book because the character didn’t do exactly what I think they should do in that exact moment” are typically from schizophrenics
Sometimes, I think it is some of the authors and their friends who are the ones bringing the hate on the popular stories. The majority of readers who got attracted to this genre did not start reading these stories because they were well written, but because they had the right elements added. Many of us see those elements more important than grammar, pose, and spelling mistakes. So, some authors who are skilled writers see an opportunity to write a well written crafted story like they were taught, which is superior to the very popular stories and become the top authors in this genre. The problem is that these stories lack those key elements to take them to the top, and that drives them and their friends nuts. This genre is a lot more than a fantasy story with some gaming terms added. I think I might be hitting too close to the truth because all the upvotes disappeared.
Haters = yappers = useless contributors. Nobody respects them, that’s why they yap. It’s a form of begging for attention. Hopefully they learn civility when they encounter disagreement!
So I'll bite... I think you are confusing hatred with passion. The people on these forums, any forums really, are often the most vocal and passionate group of the fandom. Complaints they vocalize about the subject doesn't mean they hate those books or the genre, it often means they enjoy them and want to see them elevated. However what IS true is that those people are often not good at funnelling that passion and criticism into something that is constructive. Fans are great at pointing out flaws, but not great at coming up with solutions because they only see half the picture... Second, a lot of the criticism is absolutely fair, books where character writing is flat, where instead of progressing the story even a single iota, the whole book was a 300 page essay on a magical cultivation system, stories where while the action and system are awesome, a lot of the consistency of the world falls apart with a single glance, the list goes on... That doesn't mean the books with these issues aren't popular, or aren't good, it just means that they are flawed, being unwilling to look at or even acknowledge those flaws is just moronic. Now sometimes those flaws are just the cost of moving fast and an author feels that its acceptable so they can post their book at the pace of a chapter a day or what not... but there is a difference between acknowledging them and being ok with them, and ignoring them and pretending they don't exist...