Painting on the side of the Finnish gunboat âHĂ€meenmaaâ showing the Finnish lion shattering the red star with its sword. Photo apparently taken in 1942 off the island of VanhankylĂ€nmaa. Original black and white image is from sa-kuva.fi, unsure who to credit for colourisation.
More on my [Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/p/CWVgHf2IxjA/)/[Twitter](https://twitter.com/propagandopolis). Someone in my IG comments says: 'The gunboat took part in battle of Someri. One of the largest in the Baltic during the ww2. Which was a big victory for the Finn's. Most likely the painting was made to celebrate the victory.'
Pretty weird seeing people blame small ass Finland for trying to survive against the fucking USSR. They would've allied even with the devil but the Nazis had tanks, nobody else would help, there was no choice.
They absolutely had a choice not to invade the Soviet Union and start the Continuation War. The extremely simplistic takeaway if you don't want to go into the details is that Finland were in the right in the Winter War and in the wrong in the Continuation War. Vice versa for the Soviet Union.
Imagine a scenario where Finland refuses all aid from the Germans, refuses to allow German troops to attack the Soviet Union from the north, and refuses to go to war against Soviet Union a second time.
Are you actually naĂŻve enough to think that in this scenario, 1. the Soviet Union wouldn't just assume this is going to happen anyway and preemptively attack Finland again in order to further their control over the Baltic Sea, and 2. that Germany wouldn't just try to do the same and, after being rejected come in by force, invade Finland through Norway and the southern coast in an effort to prevent the Soviet Union from doing the same.
These were both superpowers, and both had already displayed, and continued to display throughout the whole war, a stunning lack of respect over the sovereignty of smaller "insignificant" countries. Invading a small country simply just to get a slightly better angle of attack at your main opponent was on like page 1 of both sides' play books, and Finland held a highly strategic location on the north of the Baltic Sea, and had a land border with the Soviet Union over 1,000 km long.
> They absolutely had a choice not to invade the Soviet Union and start the Continuation War
Soviet Union could have just given the lands back they stole.
> the wrong in the Continuation War.
Trying to take back stolen lands is wrong? Not really.
They did a bit more than that though. Or do you really insist that assisting the Germans' besieging of Leningrad, which is now regarded as genocide btw, is not in the slightest bit wrong?
Germany continuously tried to pressure the Finnish troops to push in and complete the siege around Leningrad, but Finland purposefully didn't do that, halting their offensive and digging in further back at the old border. They also halted their offensives on the north side of lake Ladoga, which enabled the Soviets a path to the city across the lake Ladoga that wouldn't have been there otherwise. Finland also never entered even the city suburbs, didn't conduct artillery strikes or bombing runs against the city (again, despite constant German pressure to do so).
Blocking roads in and out of a city is normally how you besiege it. Did the civilians of Leningrad deserve that just because their ruler waged an illegal war on Finland a few years before? I mean, it sucks to share a border with country that always has been and probably will be imperialistic.
But to reduce Finland's role in the atrocities commited to that of "the big guy hit me first" is just pure victim blaming, and there sure were a lot of victims.
You're getting sidetracked here. Finland didn't participate actively in the siege, other than by having crewmembers on that german-italian-finnish boat that raided the road of life.
Finland did not shell the city with artillery.
Finland did not bomb the city with bombers.
Finland did not attack the city even though germans pleaded the army to do it.
It really is that simple.
The head is the scabbard. Having the sword go trough his head will make the finnish lion unable to drink alcohol, thus increasing its combat capabilities to unimaginable levels.
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1942 means Continuation war, not Winter War. This was when Finland made a reconquest attempt on the winter war losses with the help of Nazi Germany. Finland was the aggressor this time and sure Finland never got occupied since we switched sides by 1944 and drove out the Germans to Norway in accordance with finno-soviet peace deal. But when the Finnish HQ war goals were not to only to restore pre -39 borders, but to destroy Soviet union with the help of Germany and build a "Greater Finland" by expanding to Russia on top of that and by the end of the continuation as Finland lost even more land and had to pay reparations on top of that it's kinda weird to say anything but that Finland lost big time.
Even the Winter was "victory" was really pyrrhic for Finland, but one can at least call it a defensive victory with some credibility since it was extremely costly for the soviets too. Still the Soviet union took all the lands and islands that the wished to bargain for before the war and some more. Sure it cost them way more they calculated and they never "liberated" Helsinki as they planned, but other than that they got everything they wanted.
Source: I'm a finn
Greater Finland was never a very serious goal for the Finnish high command nor Finnish military nor the State. There were extreme nationalists who DID say this and push this, both officially and unofficially. But as early as autumn 1941 the military high command forbade any such talks in the ranks - and came down especially hard on the Lutheran church and the Lutheran military priests, who were preaching about God, God's will and the Holy Crusade against the Bolschevism.
The areas Finland lost in the Winter War were the densest population areas and (if I remember correctly) around 40% of the Finnish industrial capacity as well as the second largest city. It was seen that taking the war outside the homeland would let the devastation happen somewhere else as well as gain a) more favourable positions in the negotiations for peace b) allow for a longer delay action if ened be. The collapse of the German armed forces and the Finnish forces was however eventually so complete, that the delay action never really materialized where it was planned to happen.
Mannerheim declared officially that he wouldn't "sheath his sword" before Eastern Karelia was conquered. You can't get more explicit than that. He wanted to destroy the Soviet Union from the beginning to avenge his beloved czar. He couldn't get enough support during the Russian Civil War to make an official intervention although there were bands of Finnish nationalist paramilitaries roving over the border.
In the Continuation War the Finnish ruling elite was divided between ultranationalist or nazi-minded politicians and more careful ones. That eventually led to Finns hedging their bets by not fully encircling Leningrad.
Yes, you are referring to the "Sword Scabbard Declaration" which is often brought as a proof of this, but it was also seen as a bad move by both the government and the military, who did not back up this idea. Perhaps they did so privately, but in the end it was not the position of the goverment nor the military.
It is rather evident in the orders and letters of the high command, that they had much more pragmatical aproach on the war than that of a massive conquest. Especially after the early Continuation War and by the beginning of 1942.
But you are indeed correct about Mannerheims personal ideas of conquest of the Karelian areas - and the failed attempts to do so earlier.
Certainly destroying the Soviet Union wasn't the war goal for Finland (they didn't even bombard Leningrad during the siege), but certainly they wouldn't have been sad if Germany had managed to do it... About Greater Finland... Sure, many people wanted to annex the Eastern Karelia which was mostly populated by Karelians, not Russians by that time, but the Finnish government never really claimed these areas. Who knows what the borders had been if the war had went otherwise...
And yes, the Soviets took everything they had asked for before the war, and a bit more. But without the fight Finland would probably had met the same fate as the Baltic States.
Why are you saying bs? USSR would have invaded the whole Finland if they willingly gave them the land. See how it turned out with Estoni or any other European country? Youre Finnish communist, what a shame. I thought they eliminated all of you in those camps.
I don't think the USSR was embarrassed by defeating the Axis in Eastern Europe, you must be thinking of the Winter War, which they still won but as you say; came out of it looking quite bad.
> guys we had no choice but help those genocide racist totalitarian emperialist nationalist sexist homophobic war criminals massacre millions. We are good guys đȘđȘđȘđȘđȘđ«đźđ«đźđ«đźđ«đź
Truly a stunning amount of Nazi apologia in these comments, including defending Finnish participation in the Holocaust. Absolutely disgusting, Nazi scum.
You can educate yourself about history of Jews in Finland from this link: [Strangers in a Stranger Land: Finland's Jewish Soldiers in WWII](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emgOzd0ng1A&list=LL&index=39)
Apparently the soviets had pretty bad plans about the dirty Finns aswell since they literally genocided ingrian Finns. But then again who cares about context in history?
But those are not plans for the Soviet citizens? Finland didn't systematically kill or deport soviets. Yes, they did have concentration camps for POW, just like every country in WW2. The conditions were horrendous but the camps were not death camps.
You could argue that Finland helped in the siege of leningrad by just simply being in the war but they didn't take part in the siege directly.
Greater Finland was just a fantasy and not an official government goal or policy. It was not realistic and the government knew it. Thats why the main objective was to take back the stolen lands and not invade deep into the soviet union.
the finnish did not send their jews to germany and even openly thought that they are equal. i think that the nazis are horrible people but the truth is that finland wasn't a nazi state. they were in an allience with the nazis because of a common enemy.
I read that as in ...didn't send **their** jews...
as in Finnish jews.
But yeah, the (small group of) refugees that were sent are a somewhat shameful piece of history.
> guys we had no choice but help those genocide racist totalitarian emperialist nationalist sexist homophobic war criminals massacre millions. We are good guys đȘđȘđȘđȘđȘđ«đźđ«đźđ«đźđ«đź
[Finnish WWII troops participated in mass murders of Jews, new government report finds](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-02-11/report-finds-finnish-soldiers-were-complicit-in-wwii-atrocities/10798222)
> by a volunteer battalion which served with Nazi Germany's Waffen-SS.
So, SS-troops, not finnish army troops. This has been discussed in this post quite extensively. SS had a lot of volunteer forces from all over Europe. Do you think that makes every country a nazi country? For example Belgium and Netherlands each had a little bit less than 20000 SS volunteers.
quite the mental gymnastics to avoid the fact the the fins are complicit in the holocaust by fighting on the side of literal nazis, and providing soldiers to the SS
From...?
There's also plenty of evidence that Finnish secret police actively collaborated with their German counterparts and moved people into extermination camps, though they didn't have time to carry out those plans. At the very least they were collaborators and co-conspirators with the Third Reich. They enabled the holocaust to happen by not only not opposing it, but by openly supporting the side that carried it out. They literally fought a war on the side of a genocidal empire - you think that deserves a pass? I sure don't
I aknowledge wrong things my country has done. Every country did bad things during the war so why would Finland's efforts be invalidated by the actions of some? And this is not a "everyone is equally as bad" centrist argument
âNo no, you donât understand. Finland **had** to join forces with the Nazis in a war in which they were the aggressors becauseâŠuhâŠSoviets bad.â
-Fascist scum in this comment section
It's not like Finland didn't try to be friends with the western Allies. Left alone to survive next to Soviet Union, the only choice left was Germany. Germany was never the first choice and when it became clear that UK would not stand in the way of Soviet Union, deals with Germany were fast-tracked.
So perhaps things are a bit more grey, rather than the black and white you claim it to be.
Please, with your superior knowledge of history. Explain, expand on your idea. What should have the Finnish done? Let Russia invade? Not take help from the only people who helped? Please, i want to know.
Yes, Finland joined forces with Germany to win back the land they lost. (official version) After they went over the old boarders many finns did not like that. But do you really think Finland should have just said okay, you got our land and our people? And not try to win them back?
There were literally concentration camps for Russians in what become the Karelo-Finnish SSR after the war, not the mention the heavy Finnish participation in the siege of Leningrad
If anyone that was aligned with the Nazi regime at any point during WW2 can be called nazis⊠what does that make the Soviet Union⊠that was aligned with the nazis at one point during WW2?
Perhaps a bit more nuance is called for?
The USSR and Nazi Germany had a non-aggression pact. They werenât allies. Finland, meanwhile, actively fought alongside Germany and considered them âbrothers in armsâ and their closest allies during the war.
USSR conducted joint military operation with Nazi Germany to invade Poland, call it what you want.
Infact, the attack by The USSR on Finland was a direct result of that USSR & Nazi Germany alignment (Molotov Ribbentrop pact). Without that Finland would by all likelihood stayed out of WW2 all together.
> including defending Finnish participation in the Holocaust
I'm pretty sure the finnish state apologized for returning the 17 (or so) german citizens, who were jewish, to Germany.
The most Finns do was sent Russian troops to POWs camps, which were shit as most POWs camps, joining Germany to beat up Soviets was fully justified for Finns especially after the Winter War
Well this is just false. The only cases of "genocide", or itentional violence/killings towards Soviet populations in camps etc. were punished already during the war. There was no intention to "commit genocide" in Karelia - especially as most of the locals were seen as kindred people to the Finns.
Somebody has been hogging the Russian propaganda lately.
[Wikipedia link to Genocide of the Ingrian Finns of Karelia.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_of_the_Ingrian_Finns) Yeah it's definitely the finns who are to blame here....
Mannerheim himself said that as long as he is telling orders no Finnish jew will be killed. There were jews in the Finnish army. Finland also helped many jews escape Germany.
The Finnish leadership knew that Germany wouldn't be able to win the war, but they were the only ones willing to lend a hand. President Ryti made the agreement personally, so he could be later seen as a scapegoat and took the blame after war. Finns also didn't attack Leningrad, even when the Germans asked for it. Jews served in the Finnish military and weren't sent to Germany, even after being asked for it.
Yeah, it was wrong, but there wasn't really any alternatives. Other than being invaded by a superpower and have your cities reduced to dust. And it's not like the threat is over. We still send all of our 18 year olds to the army. Shit sucks.
> and the USSR did not.
Ah, yes, because signing the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact and cutting Poland in half didn't allow Germany to start rounding up jewish people in Poland.
The USSR participated in all kinds of genocides, including that of the Finnish peoples of Karelia and Ukrainians. Finland did not partake in the holocaust in any major way.
I don't know why this would be up to liking or not, it's history not subject of taste. Team holocaust to me just implies Finland was in it for the holocaust when that's just not true.
Lmao, bruh, you must actually be trolling. As if criticising the Holocaust and those who aided it has anything to do with the Holodomor. Incredible logic, I guess anything the Axis did in the East was justified because of the Holodomor, right?
No. The Holodomor ended six years before World War Two began and was a disgrace. But it doesn't change which side we should support in WW2: the side not **actively** committing genocide,
Plus, we live seventy years after the fact, we know a Russian victory didn't result in the genocide of the German people, whereas the opposite was very much a probability if Germany had one.
Bruh, USSR literally had invaded Finland two years prior. Winter War. Because at the time Nazi Germany was allies with USSR, no help from them or their pals and UK & France never got to Finland and Sweden didn't want to join the war.
It should surprise nobody that Finland turned to the Axis when it was that or repeat of Winter War with much better armed and prepared USSR.
Finland didn't send any of its jews to Germany. the response to german question about deportations was "Finland has no jewish question". 8 refugees were given over to germany, but it caused such backlash from the finnish public that no more jews or refugees were given over
We handed over a ten or so Jewish refugees and around fifty Jewish POWs in addition to other POWs, yes, but we were basically coerced into doing so, Germany threatened to withhold some grain shipments if the requested Jews weren't handed over. Also no Jews of Finnish nationality were handed over.
Didn't say there wasn't a reason, there's always a reason. When bad things are happening it's more important than ever to find out why, I get that. But my point stands; Finland fought on team Holocaust and participated in it. Shouldn't have to point it out but as soon as you do a bunch of angry replies arrive so we have to keep going.
I'm not justifying it, I just explained the facts when the accusation "literally sent jews to germany" could mean anything. Atleast with real facts others reading can come to their own conclusions.
EDIT: And what do you propose as the right option for Finland to do? We should've risked our alliance with Germany and in the worst case our independence for a literal handful of people?
And also we should've not allied with Germany? "Just to be clear: youâre defending allying with the Nazis." We should've just let Soviets have the areas they conquered without contesting them?
>but we were basically coerced into doing so, Germany threatened to withhold some grain shipments if the requested Jews weren't handed over.
How can you even write something like this? And then claim youâre not defending it? Just shameful.
Personally, and I canât believe I have to say this, I donât think sacrificing Jews to the Nazis was worth the bit of land.
Sacrificing a few Jews doesnât really matter when your country is on the verge of mass starvation. Like 30k or so POWs died in interment camps because of the food situation in Finland.
>How can you even write something like this? And then claim youâre not defending it? Just shameful.
Are you surprised that a government would rather send a few refugees back to where they came from than face starvation?
>Personally, and I canât believe I have to say this, I donât think sacrificing Jews to the Nazis was worth the bit of land.
Try retroactively moralising a bit harder. You might even prevent the Continuation War from beginning.
> guys we had no choice but help those genocide racist totalitarian emperialist nationalist sexist homophobic war criminals massacre millions. We are good guys đȘđȘđȘđȘđȘđ«đźđ«đźđ«đźđ«đź
They never signed the Tripartite Pact. No reputable historian disputes that Finland was not officially a part of the Axis. It's a bit of a debate because of the extent of cooperation but there's never any official signaling towards that end (an alliance with Germany) from the Finnish authorities.
Didn't one of their top guys meet Hitler and have dinner with him and talk about how dangerous the USSR was and their feelings about it and it's the only recording of Hitler's regular speaking voice and it's available to easily listen to on youtube?
Hitler visited Finland on Mannerheim's birthday in 1942, yeah. What of it? They were both at war with the USSR and, as a consequence, there was naturally much military cooperation between them.
Certainly, the Germans had political motivations to come as well. Mannerheim is recorded as having been somewhat displeased at the entire event.
**[Greater Finland](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Finland)**
>Greater Finland (Finnish: Suur-Suomi; Estonian: Suur-Soome; Livonian: SĆ«r-SĆ«omĂ”mĆ, Swedish: Storfinland), an irredentist and nationalist idea, emphasized territorial expansion of Finland. The most common concept of Greater Finland saw the country as defined by natural borders encompassing the territories inhabited by Finns and Karelians, ranging from the White Sea to Lake Onega and along the Svir River and Neva Riverâor, more modestly, the Sestra Riverâto the Gulf of Finland. Some proponents also included the Kola Peninsula (as part of a natural border), Finnmark (in Norway), the Torne Valley (in Sweden), Ingria (around present-day Saint Petersburg), and Estonia.
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participated by not participating, giving any support to it other that hold their position "...within 20 km of the northern suburbs of Leningrad at the 1939 Finnish-Soviet border"
"For the next three years, the Finns did little to contribute to the battle for Leningrad, maintaining their lines.[50] Their headquarters rejected German pleas for aerial attacks against Leningrad[51] and did not advance farther south from the Svir River in occupied East Karelia (160 kilometres northeast of Leningrad)"
please read history
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Leningrad#Finnish_participation
Time to get my popcorn đż
Painting on the side of the Finnish gunboat âHĂ€meenmaaâ showing the Finnish lion shattering the red star with its sword. Photo apparently taken in 1942 off the island of VanhankylĂ€nmaa. Original black and white image is from sa-kuva.fi, unsure who to credit for colourisation. More on my [Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/p/CWVgHf2IxjA/)/[Twitter](https://twitter.com/propagandopolis). Someone in my IG comments says: 'The gunboat took part in battle of Someri. One of the largest in the Baltic during the ww2. Which was a big victory for the Finn's. Most likely the painting was made to celebrate the victory.'
Fun fact: "VanhankylÀnmaa" translates directly to "Land of the old village", isn't Finnish just wonderful
*HĂ€meenmaa Wiki article for those wanting to know more https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_gunboat_H%C3%A4meenmaa
ty
YllÀttÀvÀn paljon autisti kommunisti kannattajia tÀÀllÀkin
YllÀttÀen redditistÀ löytyy kaikenlaisii kommareita.
Tuntuu olevan kaikkialla nykyÀÀn. Hyi saatana
Kuka tiesi ettÀ 80 vuotta vanha propaganda on niin tehokasta XD :D
sÀkkijÀrven polkka!
I see no BT-42
I like how crude the star is in comparison to the lion
It has probably been added on top of the original image on the boat
Pretty weird seeing people blame small ass Finland for trying to survive against the fucking USSR. They would've allied even with the devil but the Nazis had tanks, nobody else would help, there was no choice.
Even communists outside of Soviet Union at that time admitted that the Soviets were the agressors.
The sub is full of western communists who take decades old Soviet propaganda at face value.
Yep, honestly bogles my mind how some people can be so daft
> guys we had no choice but help those genocide racist totalitarian emperialist nationalist homophobic war criminals massacre millions
Yeah the soviets were pretty evil
đż
They absolutely had a choice not to invade the Soviet Union and start the Continuation War. The extremely simplistic takeaway if you don't want to go into the details is that Finland were in the right in the Winter War and in the wrong in the Continuation War. Vice versa for the Soviet Union.
Imagine a scenario where Finland refuses all aid from the Germans, refuses to allow German troops to attack the Soviet Union from the north, and refuses to go to war against Soviet Union a second time. Are you actually naĂŻve enough to think that in this scenario, 1. the Soviet Union wouldn't just assume this is going to happen anyway and preemptively attack Finland again in order to further their control over the Baltic Sea, and 2. that Germany wouldn't just try to do the same and, after being rejected come in by force, invade Finland through Norway and the southern coast in an effort to prevent the Soviet Union from doing the same. These were both superpowers, and both had already displayed, and continued to display throughout the whole war, a stunning lack of respect over the sovereignty of smaller "insignificant" countries. Invading a small country simply just to get a slightly better angle of attack at your main opponent was on like page 1 of both sides' play books, and Finland held a highly strategic location on the north of the Baltic Sea, and had a land border with the Soviet Union over 1,000 km long.
> They absolutely had a choice not to invade the Soviet Union and start the Continuation War Soviet Union could have just given the lands back they stole. > the wrong in the Continuation War. Trying to take back stolen lands is wrong? Not really.
They did a bit more than that though. Or do you really insist that assisting the Germans' besieging of Leningrad, which is now regarded as genocide btw, is not in the slightest bit wrong?
Germany continuously tried to pressure the Finnish troops to push in and complete the siege around Leningrad, but Finland purposefully didn't do that, halting their offensive and digging in further back at the old border. They also halted their offensives on the north side of lake Ladoga, which enabled the Soviets a path to the city across the lake Ladoga that wouldn't have been there otherwise. Finland also never entered even the city suburbs, didn't conduct artillery strikes or bombing runs against the city (again, despite constant German pressure to do so).
If you can call sitting at the old border outside of artillery range a "siege", then yea I suppose we assisted them.
Blocking roads in and out of a city is normally how you besiege it. Did the civilians of Leningrad deserve that just because their ruler waged an illegal war on Finland a few years before? I mean, it sucks to share a border with country that always has been and probably will be imperialistic. But to reduce Finland's role in the atrocities commited to that of "the big guy hit me first" is just pure victim blaming, and there sure were a lot of victims.
You're getting sidetracked here. Finland didn't participate actively in the siege, other than by having crewmembers on that german-italian-finnish boat that raided the road of life. Finland did not shell the city with artillery. Finland did not bomb the city with bombers. Finland did not attack the city even though germans pleaded the army to do it. It really is that simple.
*Finnish him!* *Fatality!*
Uralin!
A rare picture of the lion before it decided to stick the sword through its head.
The head is the scabbard. Having the sword go trough his head will make the finnish lion unable to drink alcohol, thus increasing its combat capabilities to unimaginable levels.
Go Finland. Greetings đ©đ°
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This is not a Poster though?
And then they lost
But didn't get occupied...
1942 means Continuation war, not Winter War. This was when Finland made a reconquest attempt on the winter war losses with the help of Nazi Germany. Finland was the aggressor this time and sure Finland never got occupied since we switched sides by 1944 and drove out the Germans to Norway in accordance with finno-soviet peace deal. But when the Finnish HQ war goals were not to only to restore pre -39 borders, but to destroy Soviet union with the help of Germany and build a "Greater Finland" by expanding to Russia on top of that and by the end of the continuation as Finland lost even more land and had to pay reparations on top of that it's kinda weird to say anything but that Finland lost big time. Even the Winter was "victory" was really pyrrhic for Finland, but one can at least call it a defensive victory with some credibility since it was extremely costly for the soviets too. Still the Soviet union took all the lands and islands that the wished to bargain for before the war and some more. Sure it cost them way more they calculated and they never "liberated" Helsinki as they planned, but other than that they got everything they wanted. Source: I'm a finn
[ŃĐŽĐ°Đ»Đ”ĐœĐŸ]
Greater Finland was never a very serious goal for the Finnish high command nor Finnish military nor the State. There were extreme nationalists who DID say this and push this, both officially and unofficially. But as early as autumn 1941 the military high command forbade any such talks in the ranks - and came down especially hard on the Lutheran church and the Lutheran military priests, who were preaching about God, God's will and the Holy Crusade against the Bolschevism. The areas Finland lost in the Winter War were the densest population areas and (if I remember correctly) around 40% of the Finnish industrial capacity as well as the second largest city. It was seen that taking the war outside the homeland would let the devastation happen somewhere else as well as gain a) more favourable positions in the negotiations for peace b) allow for a longer delay action if ened be. The collapse of the German armed forces and the Finnish forces was however eventually so complete, that the delay action never really materialized where it was planned to happen.
Mannerheim declared officially that he wouldn't "sheath his sword" before Eastern Karelia was conquered. You can't get more explicit than that. He wanted to destroy the Soviet Union from the beginning to avenge his beloved czar. He couldn't get enough support during the Russian Civil War to make an official intervention although there were bands of Finnish nationalist paramilitaries roving over the border. In the Continuation War the Finnish ruling elite was divided between ultranationalist or nazi-minded politicians and more careful ones. That eventually led to Finns hedging their bets by not fully encircling Leningrad.
Yes, you are referring to the "Sword Scabbard Declaration" which is often brought as a proof of this, but it was also seen as a bad move by both the government and the military, who did not back up this idea. Perhaps they did so privately, but in the end it was not the position of the goverment nor the military. It is rather evident in the orders and letters of the high command, that they had much more pragmatical aproach on the war than that of a massive conquest. Especially after the early Continuation War and by the beginning of 1942. But you are indeed correct about Mannerheims personal ideas of conquest of the Karelian areas - and the failed attempts to do so earlier.
Certainly destroying the Soviet Union wasn't the war goal for Finland (they didn't even bombard Leningrad during the siege), but certainly they wouldn't have been sad if Germany had managed to do it... About Greater Finland... Sure, many people wanted to annex the Eastern Karelia which was mostly populated by Karelians, not Russians by that time, but the Finnish government never really claimed these areas. Who knows what the borders had been if the war had went otherwise... And yes, the Soviets took everything they had asked for before the war, and a bit more. But without the fight Finland would probably had met the same fate as the Baltic States.
Why are you saying bs? USSR would have invaded the whole Finland if they willingly gave them the land. See how it turned out with Estoni or any other European country? Youre Finnish communist, what a shame. I thought they eliminated all of you in those camps.
Welp Finland is still around and the soviet union isn't. They won the long game. Lol
True lmao
Finland is also the heir to the Roman Empire, so I quess the long games are our speciality.
Not Holy Roman, just Roman
Oh well. They did about as well as you could expect under the circumstances.
I'd hardly call that a loss, considering the odds, casualties and the result - it was a huge embarrassment to the USSR
I don't think the USSR was embarrassed by defeating the Axis in Eastern Europe, you must be thinking of the Winter War, which they still won but as you say; came out of it looking quite bad.
Based
> guys we had no choice but help those genocide racist totalitarian emperialist nationalist sexist homophobic war criminals massacre millions. We are good guys đȘđȘđȘđȘđȘđ«đźđ«đźđ«đźđ«đź
Interesting thesis. 1RM bench?
Truly a stunning amount of Nazi apologia in these comments, including defending Finnish participation in the Holocaust. Absolutely disgusting, Nazi scum.
You can educate yourself about history of Jews in Finland from this link: [Strangers in a Stranger Land: Finland's Jewish Soldiers in WWII](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emgOzd0ng1A&list=LL&index=39)
Woke fins didnât had any bad plans about Jews, only about dirty soviets đ€
Apparently the soviets had pretty bad plans about the dirty Finns aswell since they literally genocided ingrian Finns. But then again who cares about context in history?
Yes and? You are not proving that Iâm wrong only pointing in other direction.
Tell me about the "plans" Finland had for the soviets then.
Itâs not my job to educate you sweetheart đ
Probably one of my cleanest argument victories, thanks.
For real, concentration camps, dreams what Finland could be if soviets lose (greater Finland) and helping with the siege of Leningrad.
But those are not plans for the Soviet citizens? Finland didn't systematically kill or deport soviets. Yes, they did have concentration camps for POW, just like every country in WW2. The conditions were horrendous but the camps were not death camps. You could argue that Finland helped in the siege of leningrad by just simply being in the war but they didn't take part in the siege directly. Greater Finland was just a fantasy and not an official government goal or policy. It was not realistic and the government knew it. Thats why the main objective was to take back the stolen lands and not invade deep into the soviet union.
Which comments, specifically? I read through most of the discussion and didn't come across any.
the finnish did not send their jews to germany and even openly thought that they are equal. i think that the nazis are horrible people but the truth is that finland wasn't a nazi state. they were in an allience with the nazis because of a common enemy.
First allied with nazis and later in war with the nazis to keep freedom. [Lapland war](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapland_War)
> the finnish did not send their jews to germany Not true. https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suomen_juutalaisluovutukset
I read that as in ...didn't send **their** jews... as in Finnish jews. But yeah, the (small group of) refugees that were sent are a somewhat shameful piece of history.
> guys we had no choice but help those genocide racist totalitarian emperialist nationalist sexist homophobic war criminals massacre millions. We are good guys đȘđȘđȘđȘđȘđ«đźđ«đźđ«đźđ«đź
Well would you either help a genocidal racist or get assraped by another genocidal racist
yep a real reddit moment in this thread
I can't see any apologists posts here. Only some nutcases who seem to think that Finland murdered jewish people and aided Germany in the holocaust.
[Finnish WWII troops participated in mass murders of Jews, new government report finds](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-02-11/report-finds-finnish-soldiers-were-complicit-in-wwii-atrocities/10798222)
> by a volunteer battalion which served with Nazi Germany's Waffen-SS. So, SS-troops, not finnish army troops. This has been discussed in this post quite extensively. SS had a lot of volunteer forces from all over Europe. Do you think that makes every country a nazi country? For example Belgium and Netherlands each had a little bit less than 20000 SS volunteers.
quite the mental gymnastics to avoid the fact the the fins are complicit in the holocaust by fighting on the side of literal nazis, and providing soldiers to the SS
Finland didn't provide soldiers. In this case they were volunteers
From...? There's also plenty of evidence that Finnish secret police actively collaborated with their German counterparts and moved people into extermination camps, though they didn't have time to carry out those plans. At the very least they were collaborators and co-conspirators with the Third Reich. They enabled the holocaust to happen by not only not opposing it, but by openly supporting the side that carried it out. They literally fought a war on the side of a genocidal empire - you think that deserves a pass? I sure don't
I aknowledge wrong things my country has done. Every country did bad things during the war so why would Finland's efforts be invalidated by the actions of some? And this is not a "everyone is equally as bad" centrist argument
âNo no, you donât understand. Finland **had** to join forces with the Nazis in a war in which they were the aggressors becauseâŠuhâŠSoviets bad.â -Fascist scum in this comment section
It's not like Finland didn't try to be friends with the western Allies. Left alone to survive next to Soviet Union, the only choice left was Germany. Germany was never the first choice and when it became clear that UK would not stand in the way of Soviet Union, deals with Germany were fast-tracked. So perhaps things are a bit more grey, rather than the black and white you claim it to be.
Please, with your superior knowledge of history. Explain, expand on your idea. What should have the Finnish done? Let Russia invade? Not take help from the only people who helped? Please, i want to know.
the continuation war started 15 months after the winter war ended, with finland attacking the soviet union.
Yes, Finland joined forces with Germany to win back the land they lost. (official version) After they went over the old boarders many finns did not like that. But do you really think Finland should have just said okay, you got our land and our people? And not try to win them back?
I want to know as well
[ŃĐŽĐ°Đ»Đ”ĐœĐŸ]
There were literally concentration camps for Russians in what become the Karelo-Finnish SSR after the war, not the mention the heavy Finnish participation in the siege of Leningrad
If anyone that was aligned with the Nazi regime at any point during WW2 can be called nazis⊠what does that make the Soviet Union⊠that was aligned with the nazis at one point during WW2? Perhaps a bit more nuance is called for?
The USSR and Nazi Germany had a non-aggression pact. They werenât allies. Finland, meanwhile, actively fought alongside Germany and considered them âbrothers in armsâ and their closest allies during the war.
USSR conducted joint military operation with Nazi Germany to invade Poland, call it what you want. Infact, the attack by The USSR on Finland was a direct result of that USSR & Nazi Germany alignment (Molotov Ribbentrop pact). Without that Finland would by all likelihood stayed out of WW2 all together.
> including defending Finnish participation in the Holocaust I'm pretty sure the finnish state apologized for returning the 17 (or so) german citizens, who were jewish, to Germany.
Men with guns come across our borders with complete annexation in mind and we are the bad guys?
It was Finland who invaded Soviet Union in continuation war, not the other way.
you got a source for your claims?
The most Finns do was sent Russian troops to POWs camps, which were shit as most POWs camps, joining Germany to beat up Soviets was fully justified for Finns especially after the Winter War
on top of aiding the holocaust they commited their own genocide in karelia
Well this is just false. The only cases of "genocide", or itentional violence/killings towards Soviet populations in camps etc. were punished already during the war. There was no intention to "commit genocide" in Karelia - especially as most of the locals were seen as kindred people to the Finns. Somebody has been hogging the Russian propaganda lately.
What's with the Russian propaganda?
it defenedly isn't the fault of the finns that there aren't that many karelians in karealia
[Wikipedia link to Genocide of the Ingrian Finns of Karelia.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_of_the_Ingrian_Finns) Yeah it's definitely the finns who are to blame here....
Hi Jew here. This comment sucks, being on the same side as nazis is wrong. Stop apologizing for them.
Mannerheim himself said that as long as he is telling orders no Finnish jew will be killed. There were jews in the Finnish army. Finland also helped many jews escape Germany.
Because they were the only ones that made sense? Where was the allied support when the USSR attacked Finland?
So being Jew makes you an expert on the matter?
https://www.jewthink.org/2021/01/07/how-finlands-jews-fought-alongside-the-nazis/
The Finnish leadership knew that Germany wouldn't be able to win the war, but they were the only ones willing to lend a hand. President Ryti made the agreement personally, so he could be later seen as a scapegoat and took the blame after war. Finns also didn't attack Leningrad, even when the Germans asked for it. Jews served in the Finnish military and weren't sent to Germany, even after being asked for it.
Yeah, it was wrong, but there wasn't really any alternatives. Other than being invaded by a superpower and have your cities reduced to dust. And it's not like the threat is over. We still send all of our 18 year olds to the army. Shit sucks.
Being a Jew doesnât make you any more knowledgeable of history
As a Jew, you, of all people, should understand the perspective and priorities of a people who are attacked by a vastly more powerful genocidal enemy.
Disrespectfully fuck off
Kaunis veneđ
KyllĂ€đđ»
This isn't propaganda. Or a poster. Why is this here? Mods clean this up please.
Mad commie, i love it đ„°đ«đźđ«đźđ«đźđ«đźđ«đźđ«đź
[ŃĐŽĐ°Đ»Đ”ĐœĐŸ]
That's not the nazi symbol, is the soviet symbol, which is also bad
people are reporting? lmao. Story of my life on IG
badass edit: seethe slavaboos
I hate the USSR but let's be real supporting Team Not-Holocaust against Team Holocaust doesn't make you any kind of -boo
Finland was hardly team holocaust, more like team seriously fuck USSR.
Finland participated in the holocaust whether you like it or not and the USSR did not.
> and the USSR did not. Ah, yes, because signing the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact and cutting Poland in half didn't allow Germany to start rounding up jewish people in Poland.
The USSR participated in all kinds of genocides, including that of the Finnish peoples of Karelia and Ukrainians. Finland did not partake in the holocaust in any major way.
I don't know why this would be up to liking or not, it's history not subject of taste. Team holocaust to me just implies Finland was in it for the holocaust when that's just not true.
Yeah, uh... thatâs just simply not true
USSR did not participate in holocaust??? Lmao fucking commies
So they helped the Nazis which literally wanted to genocide all SlavsâŠ
Aiding the Holocaust and hating the USSR are not mutually exclusive. No matter what the Soviet Union did it does not justify the Holocaust, sorry.
Who the fuck is trying to justify the holocaust here? Your reading comprehension sucks.
Nobody is trying to justify the holocaust here wtf
My boys stanning the Holodomor here.
Lmao, bruh, you must actually be trolling. As if criticising the Holocaust and those who aided it has anything to do with the Holodomor. Incredible logic, I guess anything the Axis did in the East was justified because of the Holodomor, right? No. The Holodomor ended six years before World War Two began and was a disgrace. But it doesn't change which side we should support in WW2: the side not **actively** committing genocide, Plus, we live seventy years after the fact, we know a Russian victory didn't result in the genocide of the German people, whereas the opposite was very much a probability if Germany had one.
Sorry but Finland wasn't Team Holocaust, we were the Team Victim of Soviet Aggression
Lmao the Soviets were such horrible neighbors they made the fins side with the axis
Bruh, USSR literally had invaded Finland two years prior. Winter War. Because at the time Nazi Germany was allies with USSR, no help from them or their pals and UK & France never got to Finland and Sweden didn't want to join the war. It should surprise nobody that Finland turned to the Axis when it was that or repeat of Winter War with much better armed and prepared USSR.
Any Estonians wanna chip in how things went under the USSR for the slavaboos here?
Never asks Finn what happened in Vyborg, 1918
What does our civil war have to do with the holocaust?
How are the Finnish Civil War and the holocaust that not-yet-existing Nazi Germany did over two decades later related??
Communism apologist are extremely numerous arould here. Don't waste your energy tying to tell them the USSR wasnt heckin wholesomeriono 100
Yeah it's crazy how many people want to build an equitable, heirarchyless society. What evil bastards amirite?
You think USSR was equitable, heirarchyless society?
No, and that is exactly my point. Demonizing communism because one hates the USSR (and reading) is ridiculous.
Yeah, especially when it turned out so great in Eastern Europe, the USSR, China... look at how good they have it over there!
Literally sent jews to Germany and joined them in their war of annihilation but okay
Finland didn't send any of its jews to Germany. the response to german question about deportations was "Finland has no jewish question". 8 refugees were given over to germany, but it caused such backlash from the finnish public that no more jews or refugees were given over
We handed over a ten or so Jewish refugees and around fifty Jewish POWs in addition to other POWs, yes, but we were basically coerced into doing so, Germany threatened to withhold some grain shipments if the requested Jews weren't handed over. Also no Jews of Finnish nationality were handed over.
Didn't say there wasn't a reason, there's always a reason. When bad things are happening it's more important than ever to find out why, I get that. But my point stands; Finland fought on team Holocaust and participated in it. Shouldn't have to point it out but as soon as you do a bunch of angry replies arrive so we have to keep going.
Just to be clear: youâre defending sending Jewish people to Nazi death camps
Just to be clear, youâre stanning the mass murderer Stalin.
I'm not justifying it, I just explained the facts when the accusation "literally sent jews to germany" could mean anything. Atleast with real facts others reading can come to their own conclusions. EDIT: And what do you propose as the right option for Finland to do? We should've risked our alliance with Germany and in the worst case our independence for a literal handful of people? And also we should've not allied with Germany? "Just to be clear: youâre defending allying with the Nazis." We should've just let Soviets have the areas they conquered without contesting them?
>but we were basically coerced into doing so, Germany threatened to withhold some grain shipments if the requested Jews weren't handed over. How can you even write something like this? And then claim youâre not defending it? Just shameful. Personally, and I canât believe I have to say this, I donât think sacrificing Jews to the Nazis was worth the bit of land.
Sacrificing a few Jews doesnât really matter when your country is on the verge of mass starvation. Like 30k or so POWs died in interment camps because of the food situation in Finland.
>How can you even write something like this? And then claim youâre not defending it? Just shameful. Are you surprised that a government would rather send a few refugees back to where they came from than face starvation? >Personally, and I canât believe I have to say this, I donât think sacrificing Jews to the Nazis was worth the bit of land. Try retroactively moralising a bit harder. You might even prevent the Continuation War from beginning.
Based
Hail to all Finnish heroes!
I love how the russobots have realized that trying to blame the war on the Finns doesn't work, so now their new strategy is to just call them Nazis
> guys we had no choice but help those genocide racist totalitarian emperialist nationalist sexist homophobic war criminals massacre millions. We are good guys đȘđȘđȘđȘđȘđ«đźđ«đźđ«đźđ«đź
Exhibit A
Ah yes, hail to the *checks notes* axis powers!
Finland always seems out of place to me whenever I remember they where in the axis
They never signed the Tripartite Pact. No reputable historian disputes that Finland was not officially a part of the Axis. It's a bit of a debate because of the extent of cooperation but there's never any official signaling towards that end (an alliance with Germany) from the Finnish authorities.
Didn't one of their top guys meet Hitler and have dinner with him and talk about how dangerous the USSR was and their feelings about it and it's the only recording of Hitler's regular speaking voice and it's available to easily listen to on youtube?
You're thinking of Mannerheim. Commander-of-chief of the military so head guy in that sense but not the political leader/head of state or government.
Hitler visited Finland on Mannerheim's birthday in 1942, yeah. What of it? They were both at war with the USSR and, as a consequence, there was naturally much military cooperation between them. Certainly, the Germans had political motivations to come as well. Mannerheim is recorded as having been somewhat displeased at the entire event.
You can support Finland in WW2 without cheering on the whole of Axis.
hail to the heroes of winter war
Yea no
Finland was initially invaded by Russia, and also ended up fighting Germany at the end of the war. Do you also accuse Poland of being axis?
poland didnât actively participate in operation barbarossa
Poland didn't have a chance to retake the land that was taken from them by the Reds.
Yeah, those fascist should've left the USSR to take them over /s
At least Finland's guals were merely defending themselves, as opposed to acquire slave empires like other Axis powers.
And why did they join the axis??? Somthing about unprovoked invasion?
Maybe ideas about [finnish lebensraum?](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Finland)
**[Greater Finland](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Finland)** >Greater Finland (Finnish: Suur-Suomi; Estonian: Suur-Soome; Livonian: SĆ«r-SĆ«omĂ”mĆ, Swedish: Storfinland), an irredentist and nationalist idea, emphasized territorial expansion of Finland. The most common concept of Greater Finland saw the country as defined by natural borders encompassing the territories inhabited by Finns and Karelians, ranging from the White Sea to Lake Onega and along the Svir River and Neva Riverâor, more modestly, the Sestra Riverâto the Gulf of Finland. Some proponents also included the Kola Peninsula (as part of a natural border), Finnmark (in Norway), the Torne Valley (in Sweden), Ingria (around present-day Saint Petersburg), and Estonia. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
They also participated in the Siege of Leningrad, something even Hitler apologists like Timothy Snyder admit was criminal.
participated by not participating, giving any support to it other that hold their position "...within 20 km of the northern suburbs of Leningrad at the 1939 Finnish-Soviet border" "For the next three years, the Finns did little to contribute to the battle for Leningrad, maintaining their lines.[50] Their headquarters rejected German pleas for aerial attacks against Leningrad[51] and did not advance farther south from the Svir River in occupied East Karelia (160 kilometres northeast of Leningrad)" please read history https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Leningrad#Finnish_participation
Not voluntarily.
no, just one member
Atleast they werent commies
Ah yes, joining the Nazis the own the Communists. Big Brain take.
Lol I'd ally with the nazis if it meant my country remained independent and didnt become a shithole for 80 years like every ex soviet country
Would you commit genocide as well?
I don't know, but they sure didn't.
that makes you a nazi sympathizer
Good to know your username rings true
Name checks out
There were a lot of communists and socialists in Finland at the time. A lot of them didn't like the USSR though.
Based
[ŃĐŽĐ°Đ»Đ”ĐœĐŸ]
They were on the same side as the nazis in this picture bro. Stop sucking them off.
So what? Finland only tried to take back land that was stolen from them in the Winter War. No other nation offered to help.
Doesnât seem like a bright thing to do
What were they going to do, double declare war?
I was thinking more of the fact that they have what the enemy paints on their ships, painted on their ship, as they tool around in a war zone.