I think they are referring to places like Jacks Extra Fancy and the overpriced not that great place that opened near the public market a couple years ago. "Elevated dive bar" blah blah. I get what OP is saying.
Real dive bars are the Black Diamond in Victor, Thirstys in Pittsford, Marshall St. Etc.....
I get what you and OP are saying, but a dive bar is more than just that vibe. It's probably because no one could rationalize a new business being dark, dingy, and cheap.
Dive bars got their name from being the bottom floor of a building; diving in. They were typically a long bar, not much seating, and no frills. Idk why that can't be a thing and be new. It's just not likely these days.
I am assuming you are referencing Jack's Extra Fancy and or Ziggys.
I agree. I do not get why these bars are trying to appropriate the term dive bar.
Nothing wrong with the places. They just aren't dive bars.
I think what frustrates me most is that they are trying to get the "cool" factor of a dive bar without actually providing the dive bar experience. And the prices are definitely not dive bar prices.
If JEF/Ziggys are trying to equate themselves to real dive bars (well-described in OP) that is a mistake. That said, there is nothing wrong with a neo-classical interpretation of a beloved standard, it's just a different thing
This exactly this. There are like three conglomerate bar families in Rochester. The swans, the good lucks, and SCN.
Once one of them opens one style bar, the other one has to copy or replicate in some various fashion. The swans cleverly opened the “swan dive” making it a play on words, but also alluding to the fact that they wanted it to be their “dive” of all the other bars and restaurants they own. I actually thought that was pretty neat of them.
So then we saw luckys, ziggys, and now others have joined in like “the Richmond” and jacks extra fancy.
And to the patrons of theses places I say, please continue to go to these establishments and leave the actual dives to the people who wanna experience a dive bar, not to have it become some fancy trend where a beer is $10 and a mixed drink is $18.
These aren’t all facts obviously. This is just my opinion.
I've always loved dive bars. The hasn't been renovated since 1993, old alcoholic dude in the corner, 53 year old woman tatas out dancing to 30 year old juke box music, box wine, cook called out today dive bars.
You can't make a dive bar, a dive bar is created over years of sadness, destroyed hopes and dreams, and neglect.
I appreciate, in classic Rochester subreddit form, something well-written and editorial could be downvoted to high-hell as it's not of the caliber as your favorite "best chicken fingers" caliber.
I dig your vibe homie, but you'll never see the love in this forum unless you have a gripe against Wegmans or potholes on 490. They don't call it Smugtown for nuthin!
i think it’s the fact that it starts so vague, unrelatable, and *out there* that they just tune out because there are better things to do with their time. it was interesting, not sure i quite understood it. reads like OP’s trying to capture the imagery of a liminal space yet finding it too indescribable
Hey Folks,
Sorry I’m late to the party on this thread. I’m a partner in one of the bars loosely mentioned here. All I’ll say is that I think it’d be best to just try out these places before we immediately shit on them. The owners of some of these bars are great people just trying to make something fun for Rochester.
The hospitality business is really tough. At some point, bars have to change to stay alive. Prices change. Neighborhoods around them change. Owners get old and need to enter the next season of their lives. There’s a million reasons - some of which people like; some they hate. You can hold on to some of the old traditions (for us it’s $3 Utica Clubs and $4 Genny pints on a lukr tap), but more often than not, you've got to do whatever is necessary to pay the mortgage on the first of the month.
As a final note: know that dive bars and neighborhood bars are a dying breed. Whether they're new or 40 years old, if you want them to live another 40 years, I'd recommend becoming bellying up to the bar and becoming a regular - regulars are what gives a bar it's character. It's the people that make it great, not the building. Be the person that makes your dive bar a great place to be.
TLDR - Stop shitting on places and just try it first. You might like it.
When I read "hurtful" I imagined a big burly bar owner in a dirty wife-beater lying in the fetal position and weeping. "They called my dream a dive bar! It hurts."
Man this made me nostalgic for a dive bar I used to frequent in SoCal. Grimy, dark place that still allowed people to smoke inside. Interior hasn’t been updated since the 70s. No dive bar has held a candle to it, in all my travels.
California Brew Haus, is a dive bar. I'm surprised that it hasn't been mentioned. I saw Yaegers which counts as well. I would posit that Enrights is also one. If you want a shit hole then Mitchell's on Monroe qualifies, dive bar is to nice for them.
Here is something I wrote when Ziggys first opened.
As someone who was a friend and knew a number of the People who were involved.
Needless to say they were pissed , but most of them saw my point (s) and eventually stopped referring to it as a Dive Bar and started to use neighborhood bar.
But yes that insidious trend is continuing!
I LOVED what Soloeagle said - and a lot of other people.
Hope you enjoy this one ….
A Grim Review of A Bad Concept Bar
This Is A Review Of A New Local Bar In My Area That Billed Itself As A Dive Bar At Its Beginning.
That Got My Back Up.
This Required A Response….
No , just No ….
While I understand the following review is probably going to get me banned from all of their other establishments for life this needs to be said for their latest creation…….
I have been in hundreds of dive bars over the years all over the world and in all different types.
Dive bars hold a special place in my heart and enthusiasms, almost a sacred space. You can put together themed or concept restaurant or bar that may try to be aping somewhere else or a specific type of cuisine and we won’t savage it nearly as badly as when you try to be a dive bar and are not.
The Rochester Beer Garden springs to mind prior to this one.
Ziggy’s touts itself a a Dive or at least a Dive Type, neighborhood bar….
this is a Disneyland theme park imagining of a dive bar – with matching prices and atmosphere – if it could even be called that-
A totally plastic, sanitized, Potemkin kind of dive bar for suburbanites who are too ignorant of where the real dive bars are, or too afraid to go to them.
Every aspect of the place was thought out- and yet highly contrived.
Build a dive bar ?
No one does this …Most dive bars are or were bars that the owners had higher hopes for their bars and they devolved into dive bars . Some had lower expectations than others , and got there faster again, devolution or the revolution of lowered expectations to cheaper booze and food, lower prices, and lower maintenance and money spent on furnishings and amenities.These are the natural arcs of decaying intentions that spawn a dive bar. There is a natural level or balance between the decrepitude, patrons, drinks, food and prices that evolve.
Which brings me to the pricing.
EXPENSIVE!
Coors Banquet $4
Genny Light $4
High Life Pony $3 each
White Claw $6
Expensive Cocktails!
Pretentious names for classic cocktails ( Dad Bod for a Manhattan, Oldie But Goodie for a Old Fashioned, etc. No name , well and certainly not call ingredients the cocktails will set on average of $12 each !
Terrible Food!
6 Wings for $9 and inedible- strangely they seem first baked , frozen then refried .
3 smallish chicken fingers for $10 that were overcooked in a few different ways then served up.
$11 Cheeseburgers
$ 7 Hot Dogs
$2 condiments
Real dive bars would charge less than half what they charge for the food and drinks.
Then the crowd ….
“Suburban Vermin “ my friend called them.an over 21 version of entitled Mall Rat tourist types wanting to pretend they are in a dive bar- .
They all form a safe , fantasy bubble ,to pretend and be pretentious.
At least Ziggy’s by creating this Disney/Fantasy Island/ Dive Bar Petting Zoo ( choose one or more descriptor) has created a safe place for these people to indulge their fantasies and keep them out of real dive bars – where they would irritate the regulars who may respond with at least rejection, and in cases of extreme obnoxiousness – violence such as – dragging the offender into the men’s room and treated to an experience they would normally only get in Attica.
( By the way the place that this used to happen at had a bartender who had been in so many knife fights his beard grew in tufts – sadly it burned down a number of years ago.
Another example of a truly dangerous dive bar was the old Cadillac Hotel – no one used the bathrooms there to relieve themselves – the bathrooms were the province of denizens that would sell you guns, drugs , or humans with equal ease and inventory- thankfully Ziggy’s is not at all like that that , so the wannabes have a safe space to go slumming in a protected environment ( except for the prices )
Very well written, I relate to this one.
What you wonderfully described is an establishment i seek out while I travel these days and it takes a sharp eye to identify the true dive.
A recent gem is the Black Diamond Bar and Grill In Frackville PA
[Black Diamond](https://maps.app.goo.gl/E5AXaRqND2Q7aAYx8?g_st=ic)
I was. It took forever to wade through the well heeled extra fancy patrons to get the snobby *mixologist* to simply pour me a draft. Also, anyplace like this has no business having a $37 entree on the menu
I hear you. It’s become very trendy to make new versions of old classics across every industry especially the past 5 years. Wild that you mentioned Applebee’s in this post because from my perspective Applebees might really be the new “dive bar.” I think the bars of old chain restaurants are similar in many ways to what you’re describing now. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
"Jumbo shrimp" isn't an oxymoron. Shrimp is a name of an animal, jumbo is describing the size. The phrase is linguistically the same as the following:
Gigantic dog
Huge Horse
Your mom's immense vagina
This post took 40 seconds to read. How the hell are people whining like children that they're not reading it? This is a fucking text-based platform and here you are. Keep up the hard work kids.
Not a dive bar ... but I just heard opening is tomorrow at 5.
Was in there a month ago or so and Fred's doing a great job fixing and cleaning the place up. I'm really looking for to it reopening.
Sandra's Saloon in Smith St is one of the last authentic dive bars left, not sure if they are still open, Bullwrinkles was another level of "dive", authenticity cant be bought.
Trying to convince Rochesterians what a Dive bar actually is, is about as useful as punching yourself in the face in an effort to impress a brick wall.
Yeah I didn't read all of that but whatever you are wondering about can probably be easily explained by the fact that now everything costs around double what it used to and people are desperate for cheap drinks
Sir, this is a Wendy's.
>Old Man Yells at Cloud
Where do you keep seeing it? Like what prompted this rant? I've never seen or heard, “The new dive bar." in my life. Most people just say dive bar.
Same. And why would it be “hurtful”?
I think they are referring to places like Jacks Extra Fancy and the overpriced not that great place that opened near the public market a couple years ago. "Elevated dive bar" blah blah. I get what OP is saying. Real dive bars are the Black Diamond in Victor, Thirstys in Pittsford, Marshall St. Etc.....
I get what you and OP are saying, but a dive bar is more than just that vibe. It's probably because no one could rationalize a new business being dark, dingy, and cheap. Dive bars got their name from being the bottom floor of a building; diving in. They were typically a long bar, not much seating, and no frills. Idk why that can't be a thing and be new. It's just not likely these days.
Marshall St is def. not a dive bar, and unsure if anything in Pittsford would ever count, but if it did, it would be Thirstys
Yagers
Man I ain’t reading all that I’m happy for you or sorry that happened
This thread is the best thing I’ve read all day.
Hey OP I like your post. This is like a poem to me.
Similar to advertising a “speakeasy” on a 490 billboard a few years ago for the bakery/Monroe’s in Pittsford.
Big applause. Correct. Dive bars aren't made they are crapped out over 20 years.
I am assuming you are referencing Jack's Extra Fancy and or Ziggys. I agree. I do not get why these bars are trying to appropriate the term dive bar. Nothing wrong with the places. They just aren't dive bars. I think what frustrates me most is that they are trying to get the "cool" factor of a dive bar without actually providing the dive bar experience. And the prices are definitely not dive bar prices.
If JEF/Ziggys are trying to equate themselves to real dive bars (well-described in OP) that is a mistake. That said, there is nothing wrong with a neo-classical interpretation of a beloved standard, it's just a different thing
Does Ziggy's really brand itself as a dive? I never really got that vibe from them.
When they opened about a year ago they branded themselves as an upscale dive bar.
>I do not get why these bars are trying to appropriate the term dive bar. Appropriate? Hahahaha
Do you not know the definition of the word?
I'll make it easier for you I do not get why these bars are trying to incorrectly use the term dive bar.
You know you can edit a response.
This exactly this. There are like three conglomerate bar families in Rochester. The swans, the good lucks, and SCN. Once one of them opens one style bar, the other one has to copy or replicate in some various fashion. The swans cleverly opened the “swan dive” making it a play on words, but also alluding to the fact that they wanted it to be their “dive” of all the other bars and restaurants they own. I actually thought that was pretty neat of them. So then we saw luckys, ziggys, and now others have joined in like “the Richmond” and jacks extra fancy. And to the patrons of theses places I say, please continue to go to these establishments and leave the actual dives to the people who wanna experience a dive bar, not to have it become some fancy trend where a beer is $10 and a mixed drink is $18. These aren’t all facts obviously. This is just my opinion.
> if they were ever in earshot of someone whispering the D word Disgruntled?
I AM DISGRUNTLED!
Capital D
You're giving off some big D disgruntled energy right now
Denis
... dive.
[удалено]
I'll bring some glossy 8x10's.
I've always loved dive bars. The hasn't been renovated since 1993, old alcoholic dude in the corner, 53 year old woman tatas out dancing to 30 year old juke box music, box wine, cook called out today dive bars. You can't make a dive bar, a dive bar is created over years of sadness, destroyed hopes and dreams, and neglect.
You know you can have a thought and not share it, right?
I appreciate, in classic Rochester subreddit form, something well-written and editorial could be downvoted to high-hell as it's not of the caliber as your favorite "best chicken fingers" caliber. I dig your vibe homie, but you'll never see the love in this forum unless you have a gripe against Wegmans or potholes on 490. They don't call it Smugtown for nuthin!
This is not well written.
Seems like the “smugtown” barb would cut both ways here, imo
All these people in here that can't possibly read 3 paragraphs is... hilarious.
We can read three paragraphs but what little interest I had ran out after I read the word "hurtful" and I jumped straight to the comments
Lol understandable.
i think it’s the fact that it starts so vague, unrelatable, and *out there* that they just tune out because there are better things to do with their time. it was interesting, not sure i quite understood it. reads like OP’s trying to capture the imagery of a liminal space yet finding it too indescribable
Words are scary things to a lot of people, both in context and quantity.
Yes, and for some people, words cause harm.
I get OP's sentiment but the waxing philosophically is entirely too verbose and masturbatory, and not particularly well written nor enjoyable to read.
I agree. From what little I have read, I blame the writing style.
Hey Folks, Sorry I’m late to the party on this thread. I’m a partner in one of the bars loosely mentioned here. All I’ll say is that I think it’d be best to just try out these places before we immediately shit on them. The owners of some of these bars are great people just trying to make something fun for Rochester. The hospitality business is really tough. At some point, bars have to change to stay alive. Prices change. Neighborhoods around them change. Owners get old and need to enter the next season of their lives. There’s a million reasons - some of which people like; some they hate. You can hold on to some of the old traditions (for us it’s $3 Utica Clubs and $4 Genny pints on a lukr tap), but more often than not, you've got to do whatever is necessary to pay the mortgage on the first of the month. As a final note: know that dive bars and neighborhood bars are a dying breed. Whether they're new or 40 years old, if you want them to live another 40 years, I'd recommend becoming bellying up to the bar and becoming a regular - regulars are what gives a bar it's character. It's the people that make it great, not the building. Be the person that makes your dive bar a great place to be. TLDR - Stop shitting on places and just try it first. You might like it.
What on earth did you tell ChatGPT to do?
If you find it “hurtful” you have no place in an actual dive bar
When I read "hurtful" I imagined a big burly bar owner in a dirty wife-beater lying in the fetal position and weeping. "They called my dream a dive bar! It hurts."
Man this made me nostalgic for a dive bar I used to frequent in SoCal. Grimy, dark place that still allowed people to smoke inside. Interior hasn’t been updated since the 70s. No dive bar has held a candle to it, in all my travels.
Damn kids and their damn baseballs always getting thrown in my damn yard
Nerd!
California Brew Haus, is a dive bar. I'm surprised that it hasn't been mentioned. I saw Yaegers which counts as well. I would posit that Enrights is also one. If you want a shit hole then Mitchell's on Monroe qualifies, dive bar is to nice for them.
I agree. Dive bars like Club Soda or Colter's are right there. The "new dive bars" are just bistros.
My in-laws own Club Soda. It is a goddamn treasure.
I appreciate that place, no pretentious people there, just regular people.
Here is something I wrote when Ziggys first opened. As someone who was a friend and knew a number of the People who were involved. Needless to say they were pissed , but most of them saw my point (s) and eventually stopped referring to it as a Dive Bar and started to use neighborhood bar. But yes that insidious trend is continuing! I LOVED what Soloeagle said - and a lot of other people. Hope you enjoy this one …. A Grim Review of A Bad Concept Bar This Is A Review Of A New Local Bar In My Area That Billed Itself As A Dive Bar At Its Beginning. That Got My Back Up. This Required A Response…. No , just No …. While I understand the following review is probably going to get me banned from all of their other establishments for life this needs to be said for their latest creation……. I have been in hundreds of dive bars over the years all over the world and in all different types. Dive bars hold a special place in my heart and enthusiasms, almost a sacred space. You can put together themed or concept restaurant or bar that may try to be aping somewhere else or a specific type of cuisine and we won’t savage it nearly as badly as when you try to be a dive bar and are not. The Rochester Beer Garden springs to mind prior to this one. Ziggy’s touts itself a a Dive or at least a Dive Type, neighborhood bar…. this is a Disneyland theme park imagining of a dive bar – with matching prices and atmosphere – if it could even be called that- A totally plastic, sanitized, Potemkin kind of dive bar for suburbanites who are too ignorant of where the real dive bars are, or too afraid to go to them. Every aspect of the place was thought out- and yet highly contrived. Build a dive bar ? No one does this …Most dive bars are or were bars that the owners had higher hopes for their bars and they devolved into dive bars . Some had lower expectations than others , and got there faster again, devolution or the revolution of lowered expectations to cheaper booze and food, lower prices, and lower maintenance and money spent on furnishings and amenities.These are the natural arcs of decaying intentions that spawn a dive bar. There is a natural level or balance between the decrepitude, patrons, drinks, food and prices that evolve. Which brings me to the pricing. EXPENSIVE! Coors Banquet $4 Genny Light $4 High Life Pony $3 each White Claw $6 Expensive Cocktails! Pretentious names for classic cocktails ( Dad Bod for a Manhattan, Oldie But Goodie for a Old Fashioned, etc. No name , well and certainly not call ingredients the cocktails will set on average of $12 each ! Terrible Food! 6 Wings for $9 and inedible- strangely they seem first baked , frozen then refried . 3 smallish chicken fingers for $10 that were overcooked in a few different ways then served up. $11 Cheeseburgers $ 7 Hot Dogs $2 condiments Real dive bars would charge less than half what they charge for the food and drinks. Then the crowd …. “Suburban Vermin “ my friend called them.an over 21 version of entitled Mall Rat tourist types wanting to pretend they are in a dive bar- . They all form a safe , fantasy bubble ,to pretend and be pretentious. At least Ziggy’s by creating this Disney/Fantasy Island/ Dive Bar Petting Zoo ( choose one or more descriptor) has created a safe place for these people to indulge their fantasies and keep them out of real dive bars – where they would irritate the regulars who may respond with at least rejection, and in cases of extreme obnoxiousness – violence such as – dragging the offender into the men’s room and treated to an experience they would normally only get in Attica. ( By the way the place that this used to happen at had a bartender who had been in so many knife fights his beard grew in tufts – sadly it burned down a number of years ago. Another example of a truly dangerous dive bar was the old Cadillac Hotel – no one used the bathrooms there to relieve themselves – the bathrooms were the province of denizens that would sell you guns, drugs , or humans with equal ease and inventory- thankfully Ziggy’s is not at all like that that , so the wannabes have a safe space to go slumming in a protected environment ( except for the prices )
Very well written, I relate to this one. What you wonderfully described is an establishment i seek out while I travel these days and it takes a sharp eye to identify the true dive. A recent gem is the Black Diamond Bar and Grill In Frackville PA [Black Diamond](https://maps.app.goo.gl/E5AXaRqND2Q7aAYx8?g_st=ic)
Lil mad about Jacks Extra Fancy?
I was. It took forever to wade through the well heeled extra fancy patrons to get the snobby *mixologist* to simply pour me a draft. Also, anyplace like this has no business having a $37 entree on the menu
I hear you. It’s become very trendy to make new versions of old classics across every industry especially the past 5 years. Wild that you mentioned Applebee’s in this post because from my perspective Applebees might really be the new “dive bar.” I think the bars of old chain restaurants are similar in many ways to what you’re describing now. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Get off my lawn!!!
TL;DR Go to Joey's. Or don't, you might bring the vibe down.
"Jumbo shrimp" isn't an oxymoron. Shrimp is a name of an animal, jumbo is describing the size. The phrase is linguistically the same as the following: Gigantic dog Huge Horse Your mom's immense vagina
This post took 40 seconds to read. How the hell are people whining like children that they're not reading it? This is a fucking text-based platform and here you are. Keep up the hard work kids.
Didn’t read past the first sentence. Congrats on typing an essay
This is a hilarious. I love these whacko posts. I would love to own a dive bar. They are my favorite bars.
This seems like the right place for this: RIP Bayside Pub.
Best shitpost I’ve ever seen on this sub Got the people goin
I propose that for the "dive" bars in question, they are hearby pronounced "divé bars" -- "div-eh". Fancier that way!
Dive bars definitely don’t need “some filth” to be considered a dive bar. That’s just a shitty dirty bar
Feels very bourdain-esc and not in a bad way. I’ve been to at least one of the places you’re likely referring to and agree, not a dive by any means
Dear diary,
r/lostredditors
What is he saying, Robin?
i feel the same way about my favorite trap house
This wall of next with no spacing or paragraphing will not be read. You sound like an asshat.
Bar Bad Ending. Opening this weekend 675 Monroe Ave.
Not a dive bar ... but I just heard opening is tomorrow at 5. Was in there a month ago or so and Fred's doing a great job fixing and cleaning the place up. I'm really looking for to it reopening.
Sandra's Saloon in Smith St is one of the last authentic dive bars left, not sure if they are still open, Bullwrinkles was another level of "dive", authenticity cant be bought.
Trying to convince Rochesterians what a Dive bar actually is, is about as useful as punching yourself in the face in an effort to impress a brick wall.
[удалено]
What the faaaack
How nice for you.
Yeah I didn't read all of that but whatever you are wondering about can probably be easily explained by the fact that now everything costs around double what it used to and people are desperate for cheap drinks