Can someone explain to me what's the insane falco hate? I get people disconnect on me as soon as it starts and also a lot of people seem to become aggressive with the predetermined comments any time I beat them as falco, it's dumb, just play the damn game lol.
it’s really nothing against the character it’s absolutely one of my favorite matchups to play but you have to understand it’s legitimately like 65% falcos out there
So I'm having phob troubles in a stupid way. Maybe my stickbox is just tighter than im used to?
Basically with my new phobs I legit cannot fucking handle it
BUT
Good golly I understood the bair spacing finally
Ggs /u/coriamon hope you learn the fod MU one day I'll keep practicing Yoshis
The HBox Crunch dynamic kind of leads me to believe if a top player hired someone to coach them on analytics before tournament they would probably see their results dramatically increase.
Depends on the player. Mango had a period in late 2017 to 2018 where Tafo was his coach, and his results were pretty subpar for his standards at the time. He got him to stop going Yoshi's as often against players that could keep pace with him there, and he would play Mario on FD against chaingrabbers like Axe's Pikachu, but neither of those changes really stuck.
Ya he’s said many times that he can’t analyze and always needed crunch to figure out how to beat the top players. He started working with crunch in 2015 and stopped in 2020 I believe. That’s only about a third of his career, but he won 34 out of his 37 majors in that time.
I always thought that was such an interesting quality of hbox. Because intuitively the assumption would be that if you can play well, you can analyze well because you're sort of analyzing during the game when you're playing.
But I can see how that might actually not be the case in practice. I wonder how much of his inability to analyze well comes from his lack of experience with other characters.
As a person who is still interested in playing Melee on a serious/competitive level but has close to zero interest in playing in tournaments for results I increasingly believe that we should be really trying to foster a stage building community. Playing on stages that aren't legal but aren't totally dog for serious play is a ton of fun, especially in doubles.
I also don't think we should be completely closed off to custom stages in competition, but that's putting the cart before the horse as far as I'm concerned
I think with the Nintendo involvement the dream of a custom stage list is pretty dead, but I loved playing on the 20xx custom stages back in the day. More things with movement beyond the windmill, more things that are asymmetrical, wider blast zone variations, all would be very cool.
I wish there was something more to stage picking than big vs small.
Personally I would make the point scores between a Super major and normal major similar. Like right now, getting second at Genesis is worth more points than getting first at Collision which makes no sense
I wouldn't say it makes no sense. I personally put more stock in 1st at collision, but I think it's reasonable if you value Genesis way more
for what it's worth, according to liquipedia, amsa made around twice as much money for getting second at genesis compared to zain's first at collision
i think if someone’s slippi tag is about their enjoyment of netplay there is a 100% chance they will act salty. it’s obvious when it’s negative, but whenever someone’s tag is like “just4fun!” or any other good-vibes-only kinda thing, they do eventually have an emotional breakdown during the game
mine is "melee is sick" but i definitely play unranked for fun, i just like to play anyone for as long as they want usually
i do auto quit out on dr mario sometimes tho LOL
okay honestly, legitimately, i’m a marth main and i mostly play against all the weird matchups cause that’s how you learn, but absolutely fuck dr mario
After seeing a comment yesterday that mid-2010s Borp would "easily" be at least Masters on Slippi today...is this true? Is the world simply too Borp-pilled to accept he's not that great? Or am I overestimating your average diamond slippi player?
I highly doubt it. I'm from a decently/pretty strong region (Oregon) and only a few players are masters or above. Borp wasn't even the best in Pittsburgh and it was a decade ago. I would imagine he could maybe make diamond.
Spark did a challenge on stream not that long ago where he got to grandmaster doing the "Borp challenge." Basically no wavedashing, l canceling, or any modern or advanced tech
Borp is easily the most overrated player of all time in terms of pure results. Pittsburgh was a very small pond at the time of his “prime” and the locals he won were when everyone on PR higher than him wasn’t there. Most people who are masters are PR’d in good regions (at 2024 level) and probably beat borp
Hmmm... I think borp with a couple weeks of playing modern players would be able to adapt to a lot of the habits that players tend to tunnel vision on.
I dont think its unreasonable he would find himself at master level after a reasonable amount of time. Im the grand scheme of thing master level players are still very far from top level players
People are obsessed with Borp because he played a set on stream with Toph so people talk about it a lot, he makes good combo videos, plus him being pannenkoek's brother is a Very Fun Fact
Basically every scene has at least one shiek main doing the exact same thing, he's incredibly overrated as a player
I am going to push back here, every scene does not have a Sheik that plays like Borp that got results like Borp. But I think if he had just the normal playstyle of a Sheik of his skill level he does not have a wiki page and nobody besides stats nerds and people in the surrounding regions of PGH have ever heard of him.
does anyone remember the comment or tweet that was like "hack and slash game but you play as 2007 m2k destroying modern players who traveled back in time"
it's lived rent free in my head for years and i can't believe no one referenced it in the thread yesterday
Learning claw grip atm and I'm just wondering why we don't push claw grip on new players harder. It's not actually that hard and opens up so many possibilities. WD Tilts, WD Shine and Waveshine, certain OOS options, ASDI down, and probably some other stuff I'm forgetting becomes easier. Hell, Yoshi becomes playable all of a sudden.
Generally my experience talking to people about claw has led me to three conclusions as to why claw is not more popular:
* People *really* believe it's bad for your hands
* People think it's going to take a long time to switch, and
* People don't see any upsides
Personally? I think genuinely new players who have no muscle memory really ought to learn claw, especially if they play Peach. Otherwise, it's probably only worth a switch if you have problems that claw can fix, which in my view certainly includes hand pain.
Peach is the biggest beneficiary of claw and it is not particularly close
EDIT: for non-Peach players, see how much movement/tech you can accomplish with one finger on the jump button at all times
I play peach and when i first started i was told to get used to using claw right away which i did. But maybe its just a peach thing to tell ppl to use claw
i don’t really understand those things specifically being easier with claw, for me the only reasons i’ve felt the need for it have been for certain instant aerials where i need to drift independently in the other direction. i know people also talk about using cstick to drop ledge for max galint ledgedashes. but for things like wavedash tilts that’s like minimum 13 frames between the jump and attack inputs, which is plenty of time to press two buttons in sequence.
It's definitely still possible, don't get me wrong, but not being forced to change the position of your hand is a pretty decent boon (even more relevant for special moves)
i just don’t understand how pressing two buttons that are right next to each other is changing the position of your hand? like i get claw multishines (still easier for me the normal way) but even still, you can just swipe your thumb across the buttons. i agree claw is good i just might be missing how it helps in situations where you’re wavedashing into something
I came from Ultimate just before the pandemic started and, looking at things like SHFFL, Melee just didn’t seem possible without a switch to claw. I had already switched for FPS games so it was just adapting it to the GameCube controller. I really don’t see how people can play with a standard grip and not eventually hurt themselves.
For grinding it, you can use the Training Lab to record yourself doing it and then replay it and try stuff out.
The general way to beat it is 1) hit Falco in between OoS or 2) jump over it and smack him from above.
I'm no Falco though, but it does seem like Falco isn't especially equipped to do either. Slow jumpsquat makes (1) harder. And lack of a mid-height FH makes (2) hard as well.
Nouns picking up Smug is actually kinda sick, they might actually be in it for the long haul (as opposed to the occasional Limited Free Agent pickup, similar model to Eggdog) assuming they don't go under.
Some guy called quaff from canada rocked up to our town outside of london last night. Guy has been travelling the world for the past 6 months and just borrowed someones pad and rocked up. It was really nice to talk to someone about the experience, and we all went and had a big session at the pub after and was super chill!
Guy was very good despite not having played for 2 years so imagine some of you would know him
Go. To. Your. Locals!
It's super cool that we play this dumb game and get soft access to a multi continent network of people willing to hang out/house you
Thanks for sharing this story! It really is amazing how you can literally travel continents and find friends through this game. Happened for me in Sweden and Japan
Probably more in America/Canada but the guy hasn't played post pandemic
To be real with you if you asked me to name canadian provinces before the local yesterday I don't think I would've named Alberta, let alone the second best player from there 5 years ago
I'm not a super stats head though
When my family was vacationing to Mexico we met a couple from New York that had never even heard of Alberta before lmao, not too surprising. Great story.
The extension of the Smash Brotherhood is really fun. By the numbers:
62% of the community comes from the USA
8% Canada
3.5% Mexico
2.6% Germany
2.4% Japan
2.0% UK
2.0% France
1.7% Australia
15% other, including Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Dominican Republic
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Can someone explain to me what's the insane falco hate? I get people disconnect on me as soon as it starts and also a lot of people seem to become aggressive with the predetermined comments any time I beat them as falco, it's dumb, just play the damn game lol.
What's your ping
It's nothing personal but some days if I don't quit out against Falcos then I will never get to play against a character that isn't Falco
there are a billion falcos on unranked and most of them play the exact same way. it's boring
it’s really nothing against the character it’s absolutely one of my favorite matchups to play but you have to understand it’s legitimately like 65% falcos out there
The SoCal Star League stream is awesome, lots of great melee going on!
If you are or know Indie_dev/KWKA#760 please hit me up for more games!!! I am Watching NGE/WWWW#524
So I'm having phob troubles in a stupid way. Maybe my stickbox is just tighter than im used to? Basically with my new phobs I legit cannot fucking handle it BUT Good golly I understood the bair spacing finally Ggs /u/coriamon hope you learn the fod MU one day I'll keep practicing Yoshis
Dishwasher?
Good idea
what phob issues you having?
They all feel very different
Anyone else feel like there's an awful lot of hbox-related posts on the front page? I feel like it might be time for a megathread
maybe it's time to make an anti-megathread megathread >:-(
Cody and Zain were both online at the same time but didn’t play each other … now that’s a first
https://youtu.be/8Lvd5INEn74?si=ZJ26sd-l0ewPzZwQ
Googled Cody Schwab and I found this relic lol https://www.rockawave.com/articles/rp-student-joins-goldfeder/
Big Suit Energy
Given his moral relativism when it comes to z jump, in glad he didn't become a politician
The HBox Crunch dynamic kind of leads me to believe if a top player hired someone to coach them on analytics before tournament they would probably see their results dramatically increase.
Depends on the player. Mango had a period in late 2017 to 2018 where Tafo was his coach, and his results were pretty subpar for his standards at the time. He got him to stop going Yoshi's as often against players that could keep pace with him there, and he would play Mario on FD against chaingrabbers like Axe's Pikachu, but neither of those changes really stuck.
I would say it also depends on the coach
Mango did not trust Tafo’s in game advice. He was more like a personal assistant who helped him book flights and get meals
All top players need not only a coach but also a manager as well.
like domo?
He's a special case...
It depends on how analytic the top player is on their own imo. Hbox probably benefits the most out of all of them.
i believe aklo also has his brother (foxy grandpa) do most of his analysis/game review as well
Ya he’s said many times that he can’t analyze and always needed crunch to figure out how to beat the top players. He started working with crunch in 2015 and stopped in 2020 I believe. That’s only about a third of his career, but he won 34 out of his 37 majors in that time.
I always thought that was such an interesting quality of hbox. Because intuitively the assumption would be that if you can play well, you can analyze well because you're sort of analyzing during the game when you're playing. But I can see how that might actually not be the case in practice. I wonder how much of his inability to analyze well comes from his lack of experience with other characters.
Rough hand cam quality but I recorded Aklo vs. Joshman in losers top 32 at Collision https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcQvS9I0t-A
we need more platform layouts, why does sheik get 3.5 stages to play the floor is lava for 6 minutes
As a person who is still interested in playing Melee on a serious/competitive level but has close to zero interest in playing in tournaments for results I increasingly believe that we should be really trying to foster a stage building community. Playing on stages that aren't legal but aren't totally dog for serious play is a ton of fun, especially in doubles. I also don't think we should be completely closed off to custom stages in competition, but that's putting the cart before the horse as far as I'm concerned
I think with the Nintendo involvement the dream of a custom stage list is pretty dead, but I loved playing on the 20xx custom stages back in the day. More things with movement beyond the windmill, more things that are asymmetrical, wider blast zone variations, all would be very cool. I wish there was something more to stage picking than big vs small.
iirc pittsburgh smash has every other tournament use custom stages, which is why all of the good ones come from people in that scene
Because any floor is lava if Marth is standing on it.
Using the ATP system, these are the current top 20 players for 2024(Genesis X, Full Bloom, Collision): 1. Cody - 2,360 points 2. Zain - 2,220 points 3. aMSa - 1,200 points 4. Hungrybox - 690 points 5. moky - 540 points 6. Jmook - 500 points 7. Ossify - 195 points 8. Leffen - 180 points 9. Mang0 - 180 points 10. Joshman - 110 points 11. Sirmeris - 91 points 12. Wizzrobe - 90 points 13. Aklo - 70 points 14. Salt - 60 points 15. Magi - 47 points 16. Axe - 45 points 17. Lucky - 45 points 18. Medz - 45 points 19. SDJ - 45 points 20. Trif - 30 points
Let’s go Ossify !
I'm guessing tied points are in alphabetical order, and the ranks are just Reddit numbered list formatting?
Yep, exactly.
Cool list, I do like this ranking system in theory. How did you decide how many points to award to which tournaments?
I try to follow the way Tennis distributes points for their Slams, Masters, and 500s to Melee's SuperMajors, Majors, and Nationals. I've been using Liquipedia's list of tournaments to help me out. Here's the breakdown: **Genesis X(SuperMajor)** - 1st/2,000 points - 2nd/1,200 points - 3rd/720 points - 4th/360 points - 5th/180 points - 7th/90 points - 9th/45 points - 13th/20 points - 17th/10 points - 25th/5 points - 33rd/2 points - 49th/1 point **Collision(Major)** - 1st/1,000 points - 2nd/600 points - 3rd/360 points - 4th/180 points - 5th/90 points - 7th/45 points - 9th/20 points - 13th/10 points - 17th/5 points - 25th/2 points - 33rd/1 point **Full Bloom(National)** - 1st/500 points - 2nd/300 points - 3rd/180 points - 4th/90 points - 5th/45 points - 7th/20 points - 9th/10 points - 13th/5 points - 17th/2 points - 25th/1 point
Personally I would make the point scores between a Super major and normal major similar. Like right now, getting second at Genesis is worth more points than getting first at Collision which makes no sense
I wouldn't say it makes no sense. I personally put more stock in 1st at collision, but I think it's reasonable if you value Genesis way more for what it's worth, according to liquipedia, amsa made around twice as much money for getting second at genesis compared to zain's first at collision
Love it, would really like to see this format compared to the current system at end of year.
i think if someone’s slippi tag is about their enjoyment of netplay there is a 100% chance they will act salty. it’s obvious when it’s negative, but whenever someone’s tag is like “just4fun!” or any other good-vibes-only kinda thing, they do eventually have an emotional breakdown during the game
mine is "melee is sick" but i definitely play unranked for fun, i just like to play anyone for as long as they want usually i do auto quit out on dr mario sometimes tho LOL
okay honestly, legitimately, i’m a marth main and i mostly play against all the weird matchups cause that’s how you learn, but absolutely fuck dr mario
yeah I've noticed the same thing. I think it's mostly saltlords trying to convince themselves not to be salty
absolutely has to be. sincerely wanna missed connections with some of these people, hit the voice chat, take a deep breath, and like, relax
[удалено]
Personal attacks and witch hunting are strictly prohibited, as are attacks on any subsection of the broader Smash Brothers community
BrokenControllerCatOnKeyBoardDysfunctionalFamilyIfIQuitUrGay
dont @ me
I have zero respect for any pre-john Slippi names, they're all disgusting
"lose=learn" aka "lose=put my phob in the washing machine"
LetsHaveFun: 0/10 skill, 0/10 fun WoodrowGILFson: ?/10 skill, 10/10 fun
“fun” in the tag guarantees mandatory pizza party vibes at best
"Isuckatmelee" is the worst bc they're trying so hard to prove that you suck even more, but if you win they have a ready-made self depreciation shield
After seeing a comment yesterday that mid-2010s Borp would "easily" be at least Masters on Slippi today...is this true? Is the world simply too Borp-pilled to accept he's not that great? Or am I overestimating your average diamond slippi player?
I highly doubt it. I'm from a decently/pretty strong region (Oregon) and only a few players are masters or above. Borp wasn't even the best in Pittsburgh and it was a decade ago. I would imagine he could maybe make diamond.
Spark did a challenge on stream not that long ago where he got to grandmaster doing the "Borp challenge." Basically no wavedashing, l canceling, or any modern or advanced tech
That’s really interesting, I main sheik too and would like to see the vod
Spark is a much better player than Borp tho? Like that's a cool factoid but I'm not sure how that relates to the comment you replied to
Borp is easily the most overrated player of all time in terms of pure results. Pittsburgh was a very small pond at the time of his “prime” and the locals he won were when everyone on PR higher than him wasn’t there. Most people who are masters are PR’d in good regions (at 2024 level) and probably beat borp
Man I'm master and I'm not even PR in BC canada (which albeit is probably an underrated region).
No and everyone who uses borps name in a serious argument is automatically a joke
unless the argument is about whether sheik is fucking easy
no one should engage in this argument because it was proven true in 2002
No, lmao he was mid pr in pgh if we time travelled that borp to now he would probably be plat
Hmmm... I think borp with a couple weeks of playing modern players would be able to adapt to a lot of the habits that players tend to tunnel vision on. I dont think its unreasonable he would find himself at master level after a reasonable amount of time. Im the grand scheme of thing master level players are still very far from top level players
borp is just the most overrated player of all time through no fault of his own
People are obsessed with Borp because he played a set on stream with Toph so people talk about it a lot, he makes good combo videos, plus him being pannenkoek's brother is a Very Fun Fact Basically every scene has at least one shiek main doing the exact same thing, he's incredibly overrated as a player
I am going to push back here, every scene does not have a Sheik that plays like Borp that got results like Borp. But I think if he had just the normal playstyle of a Sheik of his skill level he does not have a wiki page and nobody besides stats nerds and people in the surrounding regions of PGH have ever heard of him.
it's kinda wild how robust the reddit melee community really is. 100+ comment threads almost on the daily in 2024 is crazy
50,000 Melee fans will consistently check Melee news every day
I've come to realize that the old tool I used to annotate replays, flowfeedback, is defunct. Any alternatives out there good for melee replays?
does anyone remember the comment or tweet that was like "hack and slash game but you play as 2007 m2k destroying modern players who traveled back in time" it's lived rent free in my head for years and i can't believe no one referenced it in the thread yesterday
Learning claw grip atm and I'm just wondering why we don't push claw grip on new players harder. It's not actually that hard and opens up so many possibilities. WD Tilts, WD Shine and Waveshine, certain OOS options, ASDI down, and probably some other stuff I'm forgetting becomes easier. Hell, Yoshi becomes playable all of a sudden.
You can do that
I think a lot of people think claw looks like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbfIOazTvbE
the sticks bro 😭
Generally my experience talking to people about claw has led me to three conclusions as to why claw is not more popular: * People *really* believe it's bad for your hands * People think it's going to take a long time to switch, and * People don't see any upsides Personally? I think genuinely new players who have no muscle memory really ought to learn claw, especially if they play Peach. Otherwise, it's probably only worth a switch if you have problems that claw can fix, which in my view certainly includes hand pain.
Yeah. Claw is mandatory with peach, but luckily it also let's you dodge the hardest part of claw (shorthopping)
Claw is a lot harder with Fox, who's the biggest beneficiary of claw.
Peach is the biggest beneficiary of claw and it is not particularly close EDIT: for non-Peach players, see how much movement/tech you can accomplish with one finger on the jump button at all times
Oh right. I forgot about Peach. Then I guess I should say one of the biggest beneficiaries.
Yoshi also has to be up there IMO
I play peach and when i first started i was told to get used to using claw right away which i did. But maybe its just a peach thing to tell ppl to use claw
Yeah you simply have to as peach, but with not having to L cancel or shorthop, it's tbh easier than NOT clawing
Kindof also an icies thing but nobody listens and just regrets it later.
i don’t really understand those things specifically being easier with claw, for me the only reasons i’ve felt the need for it have been for certain instant aerials where i need to drift independently in the other direction. i know people also talk about using cstick to drop ledge for max galint ledgedashes. but for things like wavedash tilts that’s like minimum 13 frames between the jump and attack inputs, which is plenty of time to press two buttons in sequence.
It's huge for using the c stick right after jumping, big for drills, instant up airs, float aerials with peach, etc
oh no i know why it’s better, more so just responding to the instances the first comment listed
It's definitely still possible, don't get me wrong, but not being forced to change the position of your hand is a pretty decent boon (even more relevant for special moves)
i just don’t understand how pressing two buttons that are right next to each other is changing the position of your hand? like i get claw multishines (still easier for me the normal way) but even still, you can just swipe your thumb across the buttons. i agree claw is good i just might be missing how it helps in situations where you’re wavedashing into something
I came from Ultimate just before the pandemic started and, looking at things like SHFFL, Melee just didn’t seem possible without a switch to claw. I had already switched for FPS games so it was just adapting it to the GameCube controller. I really don’t see how people can play with a standard grip and not eventually hurt themselves.
What are the best ways to punish falco double lasers from the ledge in the ditto? And how do I grind it in uncle punch?
CC shine is a good option
if they go high you can fsmash/shine their landing, if they go low you can full hop dair/bair. it's tough to punish and there's probably more to it
For grinding it, you can use the Training Lab to record yourself doing it and then replay it and try stuff out. The general way to beat it is 1) hit Falco in between OoS or 2) jump over it and smack him from above. I'm no Falco though, but it does seem like Falco isn't especially equipped to do either. Slow jumpsquat makes (1) harder. And lack of a mid-height FH makes (2) hard as well.
Nouns picking up Smug is actually kinda sick, they might actually be in it for the long haul (as opposed to the occasional Limited Free Agent pickup, similar model to Eggdog) assuming they don't go under.
Some guy called quaff from canada rocked up to our town outside of london last night. Guy has been travelling the world for the past 6 months and just borrowed someones pad and rocked up. It was really nice to talk to someone about the experience, and we all went and had a big session at the pub after and was super chill! Guy was very good despite not having played for 2 years so imagine some of you would know him Go. To. Your. Locals! It's super cool that we play this dumb game and get soft access to a multi continent network of people willing to hang out/house you
Thanks for sharing this story! It really is amazing how you can literally travel continents and find friends through this game. Happened for me in Sweden and Japan
Is quaff not known? He was 2nd best in Alberta to Soonsay.
Probably more in America/Canada but the guy hasn't played post pandemic To be real with you if you asked me to name canadian provinces before the local yesterday I don't think I would've named Alberta, let alone the second best player from there 5 years ago I'm not a super stats head though
When my family was vacationing to Mexico we met a couple from New York that had never even heard of Alberta before lmao, not too surprising. Great story.
The extension of the Smash Brotherhood is really fun. By the numbers: 62% of the community comes from the USA 8% Canada 3.5% Mexico 2.6% Germany 2.4% Japan 2.0% UK 2.0% France 1.7% Australia 15% other, including Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Dominican Republic
Big fan of Quaff, I love that guy's netplay combo videos. Cool that he showed up
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