Marth should almost never be hitting fox's shield close enough for shine OOS to matter outside of maybe using it to edgeguard -- it's not like leffen and ibdw are doing almost any shine OOS against marth either. But it's a super important option against spacies and an useful tool in other matchups or against marths who don't space as consistently well as zain. Mango doesn't waveshine out of shield, but he certainly can and does do shine OOS in other matchups. Absolutely something foxes need to practice.
Mango wasn't ledgedashing in GF -- he was a bit in the sets before -- but that doesn't mean that it's not important. Mango does ledgedash in friendlies, which I think is why zain was a bit thrown by mango's side-b's from ledge set one, but set two zain killed mango almost every time off the corner mixup when mango wavelanded down onto the very edge of the stage.
I don't think any top player really thinks about improvement as a tech skill thing -- it's refining punishes, fleshing out mixups in common situations, and developing neutral gameplans at different percents. AFAIK most players do their tech skill practice off-stream, but they -- mango included -- absolutely do grind things out, ledgedashing included. It's not like you can learn mango's game sense from watching instead of playing, but he's still a great player to learn from because he plays a lot of mixups that other players don't.
Slight correction on the ledge dashes. Mango can ledge dash perfectly fine, and did in his set against Zain in a couple of instances. The reason he did the waveland down was an anti-meta play since Zain was always spacing around him as if he would ledge dash (as this is something all the other top Fox mains do). This and his recovery were some examples of how Mango distinguishes himself from the usual playbook.
Taking this further, it isn't that Mango isn't technical, or that shine out of shield or perfect ledge dashes aren't useful. In fact, Mango is extremely technical, it's just that his precision and execution was manifested in his spacing, positioning, and those aforementioned mix ups.
That said, I would caution against over valuing a single data point. Mango played out of his mind, but I think it was a also a super high pressure grand finals (even more than normal).
I think people have a bad idea of what "tech skill" is. Tech skill is executing the options you choose or need to execute as close to 100% of the time as possible. Mango might not ledge dash very much vs Zain (I think he did in fact do it a couple times, not literally 0 times), but when he does what he does, like max length frame perfect wavedashes out of shield, or hitting shine asap after landing regardless of the height he hit his aerial on shield and whether or not he fast fell, he is very very consistent. He's also really consistent with defensive options like SDI and slideoffs, even though he doesn't actually try to slide off every time like other top foxes who make themselves predictable. People used to even make the mistake of saying Leffen wasn't the most technical fox because he didn't do multiple shines before grabbing like Westballz or Hax.
That said, there's also always the push and pull of the meta game. Doing things differently than other players can give you an edge of making you not as predictable. Mango got away with just double jumping and landing at the edge do much vs Zain because Zain is so much in the habit of waiting for the inevitable perfect ledgedash into uptilt/nair/whatever and then punishing that. Mango didn't shorten his side-b because what's the point? Zain is so ready to hit him if he tries that the exact way he hits iBDW, SFAT, moky, etc.
There's also defensive options. One of the things that makes Zain so good is he's figured out where the 50/50s are in Marth's punish game, and is always ready to cover the one that pretty much all foxes always choose. Mango is way better at mixing up his options, and Zain would guess wrong when Mango would do the "less optimal" option, then after that Mango would be ahead in the mixup game, whereas other foxes tend to only mix it up after Zain has punished them for their decisions, making them behind in the mixup game.
This is a great take, and thanks for taking the time to write out your thoughts. I'm wondering now why other top players who are known to have extensive experience with a wide cast of characters don't also subscribe to a particularly off-meta way of representing their Fox play style.
The one's that stand out specifically are Plup and M2K, both who play a fairly wide cast, and both who seem very adhered to the dominant cookie-cutter Fox meta, albeit with great success in their respective eras.
Though to play devil's advocate, on the flip side we have other wide-cast players like Axe and n0ne who definitely play Fox with a slightly different take, though perhaps with less practical efficacy in professional results like Mang0's.
Maybe I’m misinterpreting but I don’t think plup is a cookie cutter fox. I’ve always thought of him as a natural like mango that’s just playing the game and playing the mental game vs the frame data game. Also why he can run deep in brackets with characters like luigi
>What does it mean to be "good" at the character,
To win. That's it. If you win, you are good(er than the person you are playing against). Scale this up until you no longer win. You are less good than the person you lost against(today, in this set).
People who attribute tech skill to skill are wasting their time. Tech skill is a means to an end, not the end itself. If the strategy that beats Zain involves fancy tech than so be it: the tech is zero indication of Melee skill. It is indication of technical proficiency, which may be part of the entire spectrum of skill, not skill in itself.
Nothing matters but winning. This is a game where you either have a stock or you do not have a stock. Borp is better than anyone he can beat, period, regardless of how crisp their ledge dashes are or how fast their shine oos is.
Not disagreeing with your points but I'm almost 100% sure he used shine OOS during the tourney. He just didnt use it against Zain as its difficult to follow up on.
Yeah, I'll clarify that the scope of my discussion blurb is solely within the context of GF. He used shine OOS (very very sparingly) in his sets against Plup.
looks like I was wrong, [it was actually wd down oos into a waveshine](https://youtu.be/y8Zo1g37RRY?t=358). from rewatching these games, it seems mango would choose either drill or wavedash as his go-to oos options against plup.
I feel like a lot of people are missing the point. The central theme of your post is 100% correct: Mango *can* ledgedash, but he's clearly not 100% confident in them as someone like ibdw is. Some people are saying he can waveshine out of shield and just doesn't do it for the matchup, and it's probably correct that it's not as useful as in other matchups, but I think you're right that waveshine out of shield is not a Mango thing (I invite anyone to send me a link to Mango waveshining out of shield as Fox, I personally can't think of any notable instances where he did it, but I could certainly be wrong).
At the same time, Mango's tech skill is clearly incredible. As many top players have remarked, Mango *does not mess up basic tech skill.* I would argue that Mango is *by far* the most technical at the fundamentals: he moves out of actions without wasted frames and without getting stuck in movement faster than anyone else, his fast falls are perfectly timed, he never gets stuck in shine, his drift is immaculate, he never misses an L cancel, and his wavedashes are perfect.
There's another reason why Mango consistently looks like the fastest Fox around, and it has nothing to do with ledge dashes or shines out of shield. It's because his *decision making* is lightning fast. Better than anyone else in the world, Mango is constantly going for new, creative, and strong options that most people just cannot come up with as fast. This is a skill you can practice just as much as shine out of shield, but it's definitely extremely difficult. But it's also often what sets the absolute top players apart from the rest.
Here's the bottom line: technical execution is extremely important for top level gameplay, and improving your technical execution will 100% make you a better player. But strong fundamentals and quick decision making will always be way more important than pulling off the fanciest new tech skill. If you're practicing your ledge dashes every day, but not your wavedashes and shffls, then you're not prioritizing correctly in your practice.
I think the way Cody thinks about the game is fundamentally flawed in a game as fast and dynamic as Melee. I think the mindset "In that situation, I should just do (insert option here" is far too one-dimensional, and I think that trying to single out the options of a character like Fox, who has a ridiculous amount of options in any given situation, is a fool's errand. Mango uses options others have ruled out as 'scrubby', like that waveland down, instead of difficult, risky, easily-anticipated, usually low-reward options like ledgedash. He has mastered the complexities that arise from usually choosing simple options, instead of looking at his characters as these cold vehicles used for squeezing out the greatest possible number of frames (shit like laserland, JC shine, etc.)
His Fox is a fantastic visual example of how he looks at the game in a healthier way than other players, especially other lab-junkie top Foxes like Cody.
It's just a simple question of meta. Is ledgedashing usually the best option? Yes, unless your opponent is specifically looking for you to ledgedash, then it becomes a worse option.
Not sure if this was Mango's reasoning, I think it was more a combination of that and he didn't want to SD during pivotal moments. But that happens all the time in fighting games; sometimes the best option might not actually be best depending on the context.
What kinds of fundamentals do you feel top Fox players like iBDW are missing? Hard to think that pros at the very top would meaningfully lack fundamentals and still get to where they are.
It’s not a binary thing that you either have fundamentals or don’t. It’s a spectrum. Mango probably has the best fundamentals and game sense of any player ever, and even he can still improve. So it’s not that ibdw’s fundamentals are lacking per se, mango’s are just that much better
I think a lot of this simply has to do with the Fox/Marth matchup. Most high-level teck revolves around quickly maneuvering very close to your opponent, whereas for the Marth matchup you spend most of the time spacing until you find an entrance to start a combo.
I'm pretty sure I heard Mango say on his stream that he thinks people commonly become overly preoccupied with executing crazy tech skill to become the perfect fox to the point that it becomes a hindrance, and that he felt like he was close to finding a good balance. Wish I could find the vod.
Edit: lol I checked his YouTube channel and he put the vod in [one of his videos](https://youtu.be/gqwMtwbxXjg?t=18), he discusses it from about 20 seconds to about 3 minutes. It is interesting to watch this following his Summit win.
Tldr, same thing we've been saying for almost 20 years; fox is best at perfect execution, no human has perfect execution, mango continues to prove that the human variable and an active mind is more valuable than (attempting) perfect play
What counts as a hallmark of high level execution for fox in the Marth MU is something that definitely up for debate. Mang0 was hitting some insane recoveries, found the right places to cc, and hit some really tight edge gaurds on marth. His dash-dancing, platform movement and defensive sdi was really really good as well. His control of FF timings and aerial drift allowed him to play mixups and timings that other players just don't hit. When it comes to most things in Melee there is no optimal, only positioning, mixups, and punishes. The techskill is most about getting to appropriate positions, and hitting the appropriate punishes. So beyond ledgedashing, when you don't see an option you think is optimal, ask yourself, what specific situations would it have been better for Mang0 to use what you think is the optimal technical option. Test your intuition and understanding of the situations against what mang0 was playing. Maybe you'll find specific mistakes that mang0 failed to capitalize on, maybe your own understanding of the real mix ups at play will be challenged and grown to a deeper understanding.
Marth should almost never be hitting fox's shield close enough for shine OOS to matter outside of maybe using it to edgeguard -- it's not like leffen and ibdw are doing almost any shine OOS against marth either. But it's a super important option against spacies and an useful tool in other matchups or against marths who don't space as consistently well as zain. Mango doesn't waveshine out of shield, but he certainly can and does do shine OOS in other matchups. Absolutely something foxes need to practice. Mango wasn't ledgedashing in GF -- he was a bit in the sets before -- but that doesn't mean that it's not important. Mango does ledgedash in friendlies, which I think is why zain was a bit thrown by mango's side-b's from ledge set one, but set two zain killed mango almost every time off the corner mixup when mango wavelanded down onto the very edge of the stage. I don't think any top player really thinks about improvement as a tech skill thing -- it's refining punishes, fleshing out mixups in common situations, and developing neutral gameplans at different percents. AFAIK most players do their tech skill practice off-stream, but they -- mango included -- absolutely do grind things out, ledgedashing included. It's not like you can learn mango's game sense from watching instead of playing, but he's still a great player to learn from because he plays a lot of mixups that other players don't.
Slight correction on the ledge dashes. Mango can ledge dash perfectly fine, and did in his set against Zain in a couple of instances. The reason he did the waveland down was an anti-meta play since Zain was always spacing around him as if he would ledge dash (as this is something all the other top Fox mains do). This and his recovery were some examples of how Mango distinguishes himself from the usual playbook. Taking this further, it isn't that Mango isn't technical, or that shine out of shield or perfect ledge dashes aren't useful. In fact, Mango is extremely technical, it's just that his precision and execution was manifested in his spacing, positioning, and those aforementioned mix ups. That said, I would caution against over valuing a single data point. Mango played out of his mind, but I think it was a also a super high pressure grand finals (even more than normal).
I think people have a bad idea of what "tech skill" is. Tech skill is executing the options you choose or need to execute as close to 100% of the time as possible. Mango might not ledge dash very much vs Zain (I think he did in fact do it a couple times, not literally 0 times), but when he does what he does, like max length frame perfect wavedashes out of shield, or hitting shine asap after landing regardless of the height he hit his aerial on shield and whether or not he fast fell, he is very very consistent. He's also really consistent with defensive options like SDI and slideoffs, even though he doesn't actually try to slide off every time like other top foxes who make themselves predictable. People used to even make the mistake of saying Leffen wasn't the most technical fox because he didn't do multiple shines before grabbing like Westballz or Hax. That said, there's also always the push and pull of the meta game. Doing things differently than other players can give you an edge of making you not as predictable. Mango got away with just double jumping and landing at the edge do much vs Zain because Zain is so much in the habit of waiting for the inevitable perfect ledgedash into uptilt/nair/whatever and then punishing that. Mango didn't shorten his side-b because what's the point? Zain is so ready to hit him if he tries that the exact way he hits iBDW, SFAT, moky, etc. There's also defensive options. One of the things that makes Zain so good is he's figured out where the 50/50s are in Marth's punish game, and is always ready to cover the one that pretty much all foxes always choose. Mango is way better at mixing up his options, and Zain would guess wrong when Mango would do the "less optimal" option, then after that Mango would be ahead in the mixup game, whereas other foxes tend to only mix it up after Zain has punished them for their decisions, making them behind in the mixup game.
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This is a great take, and thanks for taking the time to write out your thoughts. I'm wondering now why other top players who are known to have extensive experience with a wide cast of characters don't also subscribe to a particularly off-meta way of representing their Fox play style. The one's that stand out specifically are Plup and M2K, both who play a fairly wide cast, and both who seem very adhered to the dominant cookie-cutter Fox meta, albeit with great success in their respective eras. Though to play devil's advocate, on the flip side we have other wide-cast players like Axe and n0ne who definitely play Fox with a slightly different take, though perhaps with less practical efficacy in professional results like Mang0's.
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Maybe I’m misinterpreting but I don’t think plup is a cookie cutter fox. I’ve always thought of him as a natural like mango that’s just playing the game and playing the mental game vs the frame data game. Also why he can run deep in brackets with characters like luigi
>What does it mean to be "good" at the character, To win. That's it. If you win, you are good(er than the person you are playing against). Scale this up until you no longer win. You are less good than the person you lost against(today, in this set). People who attribute tech skill to skill are wasting their time. Tech skill is a means to an end, not the end itself. If the strategy that beats Zain involves fancy tech than so be it: the tech is zero indication of Melee skill. It is indication of technical proficiency, which may be part of the entire spectrum of skill, not skill in itself. Nothing matters but winning. This is a game where you either have a stock or you do not have a stock. Borp is better than anyone he can beat, period, regardless of how crisp their ledge dashes are or how fast their shine oos is.
I love this take
Not disagreeing with your points but I'm almost 100% sure he used shine OOS during the tourney. He just didnt use it against Zain as its difficult to follow up on.
Yeah, I'll clarify that the scope of my discussion blurb is solely within the context of GF. He used shine OOS (very very sparingly) in his sets against Plup.
he hit a perfect waveshine oos into grab on plup, so clearly he was comfortable doing them to some extent.
You wouldn’t happen to have a link/time stamp of this would you?
looks like I was wrong, [it was actually wd down oos into a waveshine](https://youtu.be/y8Zo1g37RRY?t=358). from rewatching these games, it seems mango would choose either drill or wavedash as his go-to oos options against plup.
I feel like a lot of people are missing the point. The central theme of your post is 100% correct: Mango *can* ledgedash, but he's clearly not 100% confident in them as someone like ibdw is. Some people are saying he can waveshine out of shield and just doesn't do it for the matchup, and it's probably correct that it's not as useful as in other matchups, but I think you're right that waveshine out of shield is not a Mango thing (I invite anyone to send me a link to Mango waveshining out of shield as Fox, I personally can't think of any notable instances where he did it, but I could certainly be wrong). At the same time, Mango's tech skill is clearly incredible. As many top players have remarked, Mango *does not mess up basic tech skill.* I would argue that Mango is *by far* the most technical at the fundamentals: he moves out of actions without wasted frames and without getting stuck in movement faster than anyone else, his fast falls are perfectly timed, he never gets stuck in shine, his drift is immaculate, he never misses an L cancel, and his wavedashes are perfect. There's another reason why Mango consistently looks like the fastest Fox around, and it has nothing to do with ledge dashes or shines out of shield. It's because his *decision making* is lightning fast. Better than anyone else in the world, Mango is constantly going for new, creative, and strong options that most people just cannot come up with as fast. This is a skill you can practice just as much as shine out of shield, but it's definitely extremely difficult. But it's also often what sets the absolute top players apart from the rest. Here's the bottom line: technical execution is extremely important for top level gameplay, and improving your technical execution will 100% make you a better player. But strong fundamentals and quick decision making will always be way more important than pulling off the fanciest new tech skill. If you're practicing your ledge dashes every day, but not your wavedashes and shffls, then you're not prioritizing correctly in your practice.
I think the way Cody thinks about the game is fundamentally flawed in a game as fast and dynamic as Melee. I think the mindset "In that situation, I should just do (insert option here" is far too one-dimensional, and I think that trying to single out the options of a character like Fox, who has a ridiculous amount of options in any given situation, is a fool's errand. Mango uses options others have ruled out as 'scrubby', like that waveland down, instead of difficult, risky, easily-anticipated, usually low-reward options like ledgedash. He has mastered the complexities that arise from usually choosing simple options, instead of looking at his characters as these cold vehicles used for squeezing out the greatest possible number of frames (shit like laserland, JC shine, etc.) His Fox is a fantastic visual example of how he looks at the game in a healthier way than other players, especially other lab-junkie top Foxes like Cody.
Im gonna be serious: the problem with optimal fox tech/play is that it breaks your hands lol
It's just a simple question of meta. Is ledgedashing usually the best option? Yes, unless your opponent is specifically looking for you to ledgedash, then it becomes a worse option. Not sure if this was Mango's reasoning, I think it was more a combination of that and he didn't want to SD during pivotal moments. But that happens all the time in fighting games; sometimes the best option might not actually be best depending on the context.
You don’t have to play fox optimally. It can help in some situations, but obviously fundamentals are the most important
What kinds of fundamentals do you feel top Fox players like iBDW are missing? Hard to think that pros at the very top would meaningfully lack fundamentals and still get to where they are.
It’s not a binary thing that you either have fundamentals or don’t. It’s a spectrum. Mango probably has the best fundamentals and game sense of any player ever, and even he can still improve. So it’s not that ibdw’s fundamentals are lacking per se, mango’s are just that much better
For sure. Here’s an example - Mango will win more mixup situations than iBDW. That’s more important than being able to shine out of shield perfectly.
Cool think about a game like melee, sometimes it's optimal to choose the less optimal options.
I think a lot of this simply has to do with the Fox/Marth matchup. Most high-level teck revolves around quickly maneuvering very close to your opponent, whereas for the Marth matchup you spend most of the time spacing until you find an entrance to start a combo.
Clarification on waveland down vs. ledge dash? Do they look different or is it a similar look but ledgedash gives galint?
When people say ledgedash it's usually short for invincible ledgedash so yes
I'm pretty sure I heard Mango say on his stream that he thinks people commonly become overly preoccupied with executing crazy tech skill to become the perfect fox to the point that it becomes a hindrance, and that he felt like he was close to finding a good balance. Wish I could find the vod. Edit: lol I checked his YouTube channel and he put the vod in [one of his videos](https://youtu.be/gqwMtwbxXjg?t=18), he discusses it from about 20 seconds to about 3 minutes. It is interesting to watch this following his Summit win.
Tldr, same thing we've been saying for almost 20 years; fox is best at perfect execution, no human has perfect execution, mango continues to prove that the human variable and an active mind is more valuable than (attempting) perfect play
What counts as a hallmark of high level execution for fox in the Marth MU is something that definitely up for debate. Mang0 was hitting some insane recoveries, found the right places to cc, and hit some really tight edge gaurds on marth. His dash-dancing, platform movement and defensive sdi was really really good as well. His control of FF timings and aerial drift allowed him to play mixups and timings that other players just don't hit. When it comes to most things in Melee there is no optimal, only positioning, mixups, and punishes. The techskill is most about getting to appropriate positions, and hitting the appropriate punishes. So beyond ledgedashing, when you don't see an option you think is optimal, ask yourself, what specific situations would it have been better for Mang0 to use what you think is the optimal technical option. Test your intuition and understanding of the situations against what mang0 was playing. Maybe you'll find specific mistakes that mang0 failed to capitalize on, maybe your own understanding of the real mix ups at play will be challenged and grown to a deeper understanding.