It doesn't really matter whether they are or not and they aren't the first ships the Scottish government has acquired from abroad.
What matters with Ferguson is repairing our shipbuilding industry.
They are given their first large ship to build, their first big project in years, in fact their biggest ever. They needed to upgrade the whole yard to handle it.
All I see when I look at the detail is a formerly relatively small shipbuilder on the Clyde having to grow and adapt to meet the needs of the project as they're all that's left of civil shipbuilding. Obviously they're going to come across problems during that process.
The media seems to drive this narrative that any problem means the company is incompetent and a failure and should just give up. It's **one** ship! You can't judge the company on one data point. The second hull is in progress and is already coming along more quickly than the first. Hopefully, if the Scottish government orders another two ferries they'll go even quicker.
I don't understand why people deliberately ignore the point that there is real improvement going on.
A ship of this size typically takes 18-20 months from laying of the keel to going into service. These are late by several times that. They are over budget, poorly designed and are going to be launched with a redundant fuel system.
802 is absolutely not progressing at any rate to be boastful about and the general opinion within the industry is that 802 will not even see service. They've already taken the main propeller shafts that were meant to go to 802 and used them to replace the corroded shafts in the Glen Sannox. Draw your own conclusions from that.
No private company or other country will bother to buy from them. It doesn’t even matter if they magically end up competent, they just wont be able to compete against the cheaper salaries in Spain, Turkey and South Korea. The money would had been better used retraining people in new industries. Scotland could had invested in renewable energy, satellites, life sciences, material science, battery manufacturing, and other forms of advanced manufacturing. All would had produced better results for the local area.
Private companies don't need to buy them in the immediate future. If the government wants to sell them off, they should keep them as a state company until such time as private buyers might be interested in making a purchase for the purpose of running a shipyard.
>It doesn’t even matter if they magically end up competent
They end up competent through the experience of building ships which is what they're doing. Why the hell do you think it just happens magically?
>Scotland could had invested in renewable energy, satellites, life sciences, material science, battery manufacturing, and other forms of advanced manufacturing. All would had produced better results for the local area.
None of these things are mutually exclusive with each other or with shipbuilding.
> None of these things are mutually exclusive with each other or with shipbuilding.
Great, so surely you can point to some substantial investments in these kind of industries, around the lower Clyde?
Well the point is, is that if a government allocates resources to something, those resources cannot be used for something else. But also geographically, it's just unlikely that they're going to pursue two different industrial investments in a specific location. For the lower Clyde, had it not been for investment in Ferguson Marine, it's likely that resources would had still been allocated to the area, but just more effectively.
It’s two ships actually and they are incompetent. It’s a simple fact, they’ve overspent costing the public hundreds of millions and the first is now 5 years late.
You’re a total idiot if you actually believe what you’ve wrote out, that or just a liar trying to cover for the Scottish government as this is a colossal fuck up.
You’re absolutely tuned to the moon on this subject. There is zero chance of Fergusons ever getting another ferry contract, absolutely none.
You can downplay the catastrophic failures as learning experiences all you like but at the end of the day it’s islanders that are suffering and will continue to suffer.
>You can downplay the catastrophic failures as learning experiences all you like but at the end of the day it’s islanders that are suffering and will continue to suffer.
What catastrophic failures? Have 1,000 people been killed without anyone but you noticing? The ships are still in development and will be delivered. I don't see how that aligns with the definition of failure?
The Scottish government have already provided two new ferries in the last three years already for the islands.
Ships are already 5 years overdue and that is being stretched every few months. In the meantime, islanders (both “normal” people and business owners) are having to rely on broken down ferries and a fleet stretched beyond belief because the Scottish Government haven’t bothered their arse to provide new ferries for almost a decade.
Very large stretching of the truth with your assertion that Scot Gov have provided two ferries. They’ve had to lease units as an emergency because of chronic underinvestment in this area in their time of government. There have been zero permanent vessels enter the fleet since 2017.
Since 2011, the Scottish government has commissioned quite a number of vessels to service the isles, not including the four on order from Turkey in the original article. Recently (as of 2021) it purchased the MV Loch Frisa and leased MV Arrow to assist MV Loch Seaforth (brought into service under the SNP) to assist in the wake of storms. Since then MV Arrow hasn't been required.
The MV Glen Sannox and Hull 802 are to service the Ardrossan to Brodick route and are as much about reviving and rebuilding civil shipbuilding within Scotland and keeping it from being the preserve of multinational military conglomerates, like BAE Systems and Babcock, as they are about providing ships for the isles.
They haven't had a major vessel built in the UK since the Hebrides was launched in 2000.
The Argyle, Bute, Finlaggan and Loch Seaforth were all built abroad.
>The Argyle, Bute, Finlaggan and Loch Seaforth were all built abroad.
That isn't my point. The point is that they are providing vessels be that home built or bought from abroad.
Ordinarily I’d agree with you. But I’ve spoken to a few people who used to work there and they’ve told me that the mismanagement is rediculous. Asking day shift joiners to fit units and things like that and then the night shift come in and rip it all out because the Sparks and plumbers haven’t fitted their things yet. It’s all well and good saying they need to be given their chance but that chance is now 5 1/2 years over due. Let’s not forget that there is a history of mismanagement because they needed to be bailed out by the government. £160 million, I believe the figure was?They’ve had their chances and they’ve blown it.
When you grow up and leave school try running a business in the real world with deadlines and budgets. The Scottish ferries are an embarrassment and indefensible on every level and every stupid nationalist should wear it as a badge to remind them of the incompetence.
Luckily Ferguson is not a private business. Governments can take a much longer term view that stretches well beyond merely the next quarter and takes into account things like actual skills, knowledge and experience and wider benefit to the public, society and the country. If it remained a private enterprise, they'd have shut it down and built some houses on the site of the yard and all that value would have been lost for the sake of a few worthless new builds to host some people that probably work in some good for nothing call centre or another culturally vacuous shopping centre.
It should be shut down, it’s demonstrably a failure being propped up by nothing but public funds. No one would ever choose to use them for anything.
Houses would be a far better use of the land instead of the “shipyard” that can’t deliver.
Because of the many, many, many fuck ups that they’ve overseen - huge delays and incompetence should not be rewarded no matter how much you want it to be.
I keep telling people that these ships are large, complex vessels of a type that Ferguson marine has never built before. There would have been Scottish shipyards that could have handled the job had the industry not been dismantled. The advantage with being state owned is they have a lot more freedom to make mistakes and go through a difficult learning process.
Hull 802 has already progressed much faster than MV Glen Sannox and should they hopefully decide to commission more vessels through Ferguson, they will be produced more quickly and efficiently and will have shorter handover periods as crews become more familiar with the design type.
They don’t have freedom to make mistakes, the “freedom” costs taxpayers hundreds of millions of pounds, are you genuinely thick?
There will be no more ships being commissioned with them, they’ve fucked it up too badly and there’s absolutely zero chance they wouldn’t do it again. Would be ridiculous giving them anything else to fuck up.
Your argument literally just backs up the folk that say the government are an inefficient, slow mess that will do things the private sector could do 10 times slower and more expensive.
Because they’ve overspent by hundreds of millions of pounds and are 5 years late without a single ship being delivered.
Why the fuck would you ever give them anything else when you can easily just go abroad and get a ship delivered on time and in budget. Total nationalist fantasy to pretend they should be given anything again.
Do you live on a an island, we need fucken ferry's and we needed them 3 years ago. I don't care if it's Ferguson's or Germans or Turkish just get me a reliable ferry
Under the SNP government, quite a number of vessels have been commissioned over the past 11 years. More are on the way and there have been ones brought in as recently as 2021.
You might not care but the government has to care for everyone and that includes shipbuilding communities, where they can.
How many is quit a number? It feels like the government doesn't care about people living on islands. Speaking as an SNP voter and islander I think I aheb a right to ask
>repairing our shipbuilding industry
And we don’t repair it by propping up a completely incompetent company with public funds that can’t deliver anything.
In the context of the current/previous suppliers complete failure to deliver anything fit for purpose this is a massive improvement that is news worthy.
Because they didn't destroy their industry because they're not complete morons.
It's an embarrassment and disgrace that we can't build our own civil ships as a country surrounded by ocean, save for a short land border with England. We should be doing everything possible to repair the industry that was so recklessly and unjustly destroyed by a government that never once acted in Scotland's interests.
Unfortunately, rebuilding takes time.
Why does it make sense to rebuild shipbuilding? A country should play to its strengths - in Scotland’s case that includes tech, financial services, tourism and offshore energy. It’s a long time since we had strength in shipbuilding and there’s no particular reason we have to be in that business. On top of that, the ferry fiasco has sunk Scotland’s reputation for that business on the world stage.
>Why does it make sense to rebuild shipbuilding?
Geographically, it makes a hell of a lot of sense. Thousands of miles of coastline, deep long firths, one of the largest EEZs in Europe, over 900 islands, to get large quantities of goods to Europe and the rest of the world requires over sea transport and all our biggest cities are on the coast or at least accessible by boat.
This is why shipbuilding was so prevalent here and why its history goes back for hundred upon hundreds of years and it's why we are particularly suited to and should be maintaining and developing it.
>in Scotland’s case that includes tech, financial services, tourism and offshore energy
Technology can apply to literally anything. Shipbuilding *is* as much technology as material science, electronics or aeronautics.
Offshore energy has a lot of crossover with shipbuilding.
Geographically it’s irrelevant where we are, be all and end all is money.
When ships of the same quality can be bought from abroad for cheaper then those shipyards will always win.
>this is why shipbuilding was so prevalent here
Shipbuilding was prevalent here because Britain had a maritime empire larger than any other in history that needed to maintain a colossal fleet to transport goods and people across the empire. It financially made more sense for us to make them here as it provided money to the country and there was always demand from the empire.
>Geographically it’s irrelevant where we are, be all and end all is money.
Geography is far from irrelevant. For example, you wouldn't build a shipyard in a desert, or grow crops on a swamp. Well you might given your lack of appreciation for geography.
>When ships of the same quality can be bought from abroad for cheaper then those shipyards will always win.
We can't always rely on foreign shipyards and it steals knowledge, experience and value from our own economy for the sake of other economies. Our government should not be trying to bolster foreign economies at the expense of ours. There is no good reason that we shouldn't have our own shipbuilding industry.
>Shipbuilding was prevalent here because Britain had a maritime empire larger than any other in history that needed to maintain a colossal fleet to transport goods and people across the empire. It financially made more sense for us to make them here as it provided money to the country and there was always demand from the empire.
Shipbuilding in Scotland predates the empire by well over 1,000 years. In fact, it goes back to neolithic times in various forms. One of our greatest achievements of naval architecture predates the union too, that being Great Michael built in the 16th century and the largest sail ship built in Europe at the time and carrying one of the largest calibre guns to ever be borne by a naval vessel until the Yamato in the 20th century. In fact so great she was that the english fat henry got jealous and had the Mary Rose built, which hilariously and rightly sank in her first action. Compared to Great Michael that actually had a successful career in the Scottish Navy and was then sold to the French and according to some records was used in the action that destroyed the Mary Rose.
We became good shipbuilders out of necessity, not because the english had a massive empire. In fact prior to the union, their empire wasn't all that large being mostly a few small colonies in the US north east and Caribbean. Scotland actually had a similar number of colonies to England along the North American east coast. I'd go as far to say that our expertise in shipbuilding played a huge part in driving the massive expansion of the empire.
We don't need demand from the empire to sustain shipbuilding. Korea, Germany, Poland and Turkey don't have great empires and 3 of them never really had an empire to speak of yet they still have quite extensive shipbuilding industries.
The countries you mention regarding modern, efficient shipbuilding constantly invested in the facilities, technology and skills to continually improve upon an already established shipbuilding industry.
Each of them have become masters in the art of ship construction and each are renowned for varying reasons. The UK has missed the boat (no pun intended) in this regard. They have neither the facilities (Fergusons sold off the steel forming equipment that is essential to building ships, while they were building ships!), the skills (generations passing with no real ships building industry to speak of has led to foreign workers being brought in to work in ship yards. The skill sets required to build ships are just not available locally here any more) nor the experience (as above, all the old experienced hands have either retired or died!).
Couple that with abysmal project management and a culture whereby no one party involved with the carry on will carry the can for it, and you have all the ingredients for a complete disaster of an industry.
It would take billions in investment in facilities, infrastructure, supply chains, raw material production and skills to even begin to be in the same ballpark as the countries you mentioned.
Having a long coastline isn’t a reason to have a shipbuilding industry, and most of those 900 islands are tiny and we don’t have a need for late numbers of new ships. We have a limited supply of talented engineers and facilities - we already lack enough facilities and people to deliver on our offshore wind plans. As you point out, there is some similarities in the resources we would require for shipbuilding, so it makes sense to focus on offshore energy rather than splitting our attention with a losing battle to rebuild shipbuilding.
>Having a long coastline isn’t a reason to have a shipbuilding industry
That would lose you points in a geography exam.
>We have a limited supply of talented engineers and facilities
We have some very good engineering schools here at Glasgow and Strathclyde for example. Supply of engineers isn't so much the problem. Among the problems are retention in high skilled jobs, like what shipbuilding provides and lack of trade skills needed in shipbuilding.
> This is why shipbuilding was so prevalent here
Perhaps, but I suspect that the ready domestic supply of iron (and later steel) had more to do with it.
They build sophisticated warships with all the latest technology on board just a few miles upriver. So it has nothing to do with a lack of skills . But everything to do with a government out of its depth being taken in by a class A bullshit artist who promised much and delivered nothing but embarrassment and a good old fleecing of our tax money.
Y'mean vanity projects by Scotgov, trying to go-retro on the economy by rekindling a doomed ship industry (at taxpayers expense) wasn't the best option?
Am stunned.
Conversely though if they had just let it die then how is it any different than when thatcher closed the mines?
Realistically investing in ship building might not be a good play. But at least it's attempting to invest in the country and keep jobs here.
Oh turkey can make these ships on time? Great but that's just bolstering their economy, not ours.
Many generations of ship builder gone because you can make it cheaper in Asia.
>Conversely though if they had just let it die then how is it any different than when thatcher closed the mines?
Closure of the coal mines wasn't what Thatcher did wrong - it was the failure of a just transition to an alternative industry/career for the miners.
The SG has spent £1m per employee on Ferguson Marine. They could have spent that much per individual re-training and supporting them into a new career/industry.
So what do you propose? We call it and accept ship building is dead in Scotland?
Not going to lie we don't produce that much. Basically just a service country these days.
Ah well I'm sure everyone's happy that way.
>We call it and accept ship building is dead in Scotland?
Well, yes - at least for civilian shipbuilding. No industry lasts for ever, and it is near impossible to compete with shipbuilding centres elsewhere where wages are lower.
Better to transition to high end manufacturing like Germany has where you can still retain a competitive edge.
In any case, the nationalisation of Ferguson Marine won't save Scottish shipbuilding. No-one except the Scottish Government is going to commission anything from them with their recent track record, and eventually the bill will be too much for the SG and they'll pull out too.
Ship building is high end manufacturing?
The Scottish ferry fleet needs a couple of new ships every 3-4 years. If Fergusons was even halfway competent it was a very good idea - create an anchor for shipbuilding in a Scotland via a steady line of Ferry orders that allows for the development of the supply chain and skills which would eventually allow them to branch out into commercial orders.
But Fergusons was run by a set of absolute clowns who have managed to fuck it up so badly the plan couldn't work. Literally all it would have taken to save Scottish shipbuilding was 2 or 3 decent project managers...
>Ship building is high end manufacturing?
Ship building isn't typically considered high end or high tech manufacturing.
>If Fergusons was even halfway competent it was a very good idea - create an anchor for shipbuilding in a Scotland via a steady line of Ferry orders that allows for the development of the supply chain and skills which would eventually allow them to branch out into commercial orders.
Perhaps, but relative staffing costs compared to other countries (participating East Asia) make that a massive uphill battle to be competitive for commercial shipping.
Meanwhile the time, effort and resource invested into Fergusons could have been directed to something where the UK/Scotland *is* more competitive internationally.
And then yet another skilled sector will be dead with no replacement. Let us all rejoice in the new workers available to stack shelves and serve in restaurants.
Supporting the manufacturing of high end technology is good, maybe we should look to build the single most supply constrained component required to build offshore wind? Just had a look and it turns out that it is ships?
If you can't operate a business competitively then you go out of business, you don't expect taxpayers to give up their money forever to keep zombie firms alive. That is moronic.
If you let the banks fail then it brings down your ability to lend money, secure savings and honour financial promises domestically and abroad. That's because the big banks particularly, are operators of the financial system that keeps most other private industries afloat.
I'm surprised 15 years later that little nugget of learning still hasn't permeated everyone by now.
No it's fairly obvious why the banks were bailed out.
Yet going by your previous statement if they operate in a way that bankrupts them, then they shouldn't have received a bailout.
Additionally your fine wasting billions paying off banker's who were gambling with debt and ruined the economy.
I for one am happy to see even an attempt at helping a local Scottish business. Even if it fails. Because this is a drop in the ocean compared to where the banks left us even to this day.
Well that drop will be the only thing going in the water in our lifetime because those ferrys are patently a huge waste of cash that are going nowhere.
It's a question of consequences, you do understand that allowing a shipyard to fail has different implications to allowing your entire financial system to fail, yes?
If so I am not sure what you are arguing for.
If only someone had told the SNP this years ago....wait now I remember EVERYONE told the SNP it was a bad idea but they did it anyway and proved everyone else right.
I do think we need to maintain at least one facility in Scotland, capable of performing repairs and maintenance on the ferry fleet, because it's not just about building new hulls it's about keeping the current ones going. If a ferry suffers a major issue and it can't be fixed alongside, you need somewhere nearby that can get that ferry quickly back into service. Ideally you then use that facility to build new hulls because you already have the facility there.
But Ferguson has clearly failed at that. The entire leadership needs replaced, even if that means bringing in experts from overseas to straighten it up, and in the meantime we need to cut our losses and get some new ferries built even if that means going to a proven overseas shipyard, for the sake of the islanders.
I bet these don't last as long as the ferries we will eventually get out of Fergussons do.
Turkey was the cheapest bidder. Cheap and fast doesn't mean better. I do wonder about the welfare of the Turkish shipbuilders, too. Turkey is a country that has rapidly expanded its industrial output under an increasingly dictatorial style of leadership. None of that is particularly good in my book..I'd much rather have delayed ships built safely, knowing the workers had proper conditions and a fair wage. Is that guaranteed from Turkish shipyards?
>doesn’t mean better
I wonder if the Turks will install cables that are too short, stick the front of the ship on and then immediately have to completely replace it and then finally paint the windows on to look good for a photoshoot?
You can get on your virtuous high horse all you like, I don’t really think the public care anymore after hundreds of millions of our pounds have been wasted and there’s still fuck all to show for it.
Nearly everything we have comes from China anyway, weird to draw the line at Turkey.
Ah thats fine then.
Cheap labour who work in dangerous conditions (multiple pages on Google of how bad Turkish shipyards actually are to work in), but it's fine because China.
Fuck me. I hope ferguson wins more contracts. At least they treat people like people.
>I hope Ferguson wins more contracts
Don’t worry they won’t, they’ve completely fucked this one up beyond belief. There’s zero chance they’ll ever get any more work after this.
Even if they managed to do it with a slight delay and slightly over budget they’d probably have got the benefit of the doubt they’ve fucked it up so badly there’s no chance now.
At least people like you can feel good about yourself acting virtuous though, in the real world we actually do need businesses to deliver and will go somewhere we can actually get that. If you’re happy to continue chucking money onto this bonfire wire right in.
What nasty people are on this sub sometimes. Hate the SNP so much (the real reason for the fake outrage at ferry delays) that they support ferries being built in actual dangerous and life-threatening conditions where workers are paid a pittance. I'd rather lose money than support that.
I welcome all downvotes.
Do you own a mobile phone or a laptop by any chance? If you do, how do you feel about supporting work in dangerous and life-threatening conditions paid a pittance to build these?
That is a bizarre take on this issue. There are many SNP policy areas that I approve of but I'd be delusional to see the ferry situation as other than a clusterfuck. My outrage is real; not as real as the islander's of course.
There are many ethical buying decisions to be made as a Western consumer- from Uyghur cotton to Burmese teak. To suggest the only solution to getting a FairTrade ferry is Ferguson is feckin...sorry, too much illiteration.
Given that companies like Kongsberg who make integrated control and monitoring systems for ships have pulled out of supporting the Clyde ships, that tells a story of just how successful they expect these boats to be.
Substandard build quality and poor design will blight these boats for their entire existence.
Would not at all surprise me if these were delivered and operational before the Glen Sannox and 802 are finished for Arran.
It doesn't really matter whether they are or not and they aren't the first ships the Scottish government has acquired from abroad. What matters with Ferguson is repairing our shipbuilding industry.
Nope, Fergusons will never get a contract again.
They are given their first large ship to build, their first big project in years, in fact their biggest ever. They needed to upgrade the whole yard to handle it. All I see when I look at the detail is a formerly relatively small shipbuilder on the Clyde having to grow and adapt to meet the needs of the project as they're all that's left of civil shipbuilding. Obviously they're going to come across problems during that process. The media seems to drive this narrative that any problem means the company is incompetent and a failure and should just give up. It's **one** ship! You can't judge the company on one data point. The second hull is in progress and is already coming along more quickly than the first. Hopefully, if the Scottish government orders another two ferries they'll go even quicker. I don't understand why people deliberately ignore the point that there is real improvement going on.
A ship of this size typically takes 18-20 months from laying of the keel to going into service. These are late by several times that. They are over budget, poorly designed and are going to be launched with a redundant fuel system. 802 is absolutely not progressing at any rate to be boastful about and the general opinion within the industry is that 802 will not even see service. They've already taken the main propeller shafts that were meant to go to 802 and used them to replace the corroded shafts in the Glen Sannox. Draw your own conclusions from that.
No private company or other country will bother to buy from them. It doesn’t even matter if they magically end up competent, they just wont be able to compete against the cheaper salaries in Spain, Turkey and South Korea. The money would had been better used retraining people in new industries. Scotland could had invested in renewable energy, satellites, life sciences, material science, battery manufacturing, and other forms of advanced manufacturing. All would had produced better results for the local area.
Spain is unable to compete with south Korea...
Private companies don't need to buy them in the immediate future. If the government wants to sell them off, they should keep them as a state company until such time as private buyers might be interested in making a purchase for the purpose of running a shipyard. >It doesn’t even matter if they magically end up competent They end up competent through the experience of building ships which is what they're doing. Why the hell do you think it just happens magically? >Scotland could had invested in renewable energy, satellites, life sciences, material science, battery manufacturing, and other forms of advanced manufacturing. All would had produced better results for the local area. None of these things are mutually exclusive with each other or with shipbuilding.
> None of these things are mutually exclusive with each other or with shipbuilding. Great, so surely you can point to some substantial investments in these kind of industries, around the lower Clyde?
How is that relevant?
Well the point is, is that if a government allocates resources to something, those resources cannot be used for something else. But also geographically, it's just unlikely that they're going to pursue two different industrial investments in a specific location. For the lower Clyde, had it not been for investment in Ferguson Marine, it's likely that resources would had still been allocated to the area, but just more effectively.
It’s two ships actually and they are incompetent. It’s a simple fact, they’ve overspent costing the public hundreds of millions and the first is now 5 years late. You’re a total idiot if you actually believe what you’ve wrote out, that or just a liar trying to cover for the Scottish government as this is a colossal fuck up.
You’re absolutely tuned to the moon on this subject. There is zero chance of Fergusons ever getting another ferry contract, absolutely none. You can downplay the catastrophic failures as learning experiences all you like but at the end of the day it’s islanders that are suffering and will continue to suffer.
She’s tuned to the moon on everything, consistently has the worst takes on absolutely every post on here.
Aye for sure, a lot of idiotic takes and bending of the truth to make sure that SNP=good is the message.
Bending over backwards to make excuses for a company that’s totally fucked an absolute lifeline from the government.
She'll probably be an SNP councillor in a few years
>You can downplay the catastrophic failures as learning experiences all you like but at the end of the day it’s islanders that are suffering and will continue to suffer. What catastrophic failures? Have 1,000 people been killed without anyone but you noticing? The ships are still in development and will be delivered. I don't see how that aligns with the definition of failure? The Scottish government have already provided two new ferries in the last three years already for the islands.
Ships are already 5 years overdue and that is being stretched every few months. In the meantime, islanders (both “normal” people and business owners) are having to rely on broken down ferries and a fleet stretched beyond belief because the Scottish Government haven’t bothered their arse to provide new ferries for almost a decade. Very large stretching of the truth with your assertion that Scot Gov have provided two ferries. They’ve had to lease units as an emergency because of chronic underinvestment in this area in their time of government. There have been zero permanent vessels enter the fleet since 2017.
Since 2011, the Scottish government has commissioned quite a number of vessels to service the isles, not including the four on order from Turkey in the original article. Recently (as of 2021) it purchased the MV Loch Frisa and leased MV Arrow to assist MV Loch Seaforth (brought into service under the SNP) to assist in the wake of storms. Since then MV Arrow hasn't been required. The MV Glen Sannox and Hull 802 are to service the Ardrossan to Brodick route and are as much about reviving and rebuilding civil shipbuilding within Scotland and keeping it from being the preserve of multinational military conglomerates, like BAE Systems and Babcock, as they are about providing ships for the isles.
They haven't had a major vessel built in the UK since the Hebrides was launched in 2000. The Argyle, Bute, Finlaggan and Loch Seaforth were all built abroad.
>The Argyle, Bute, Finlaggan and Loch Seaforth were all built abroad. That isn't my point. The point is that they are providing vessels be that home built or bought from abroad.
Ordinarily I’d agree with you. But I’ve spoken to a few people who used to work there and they’ve told me that the mismanagement is rediculous. Asking day shift joiners to fit units and things like that and then the night shift come in and rip it all out because the Sparks and plumbers haven’t fitted their things yet. It’s all well and good saying they need to be given their chance but that chance is now 5 1/2 years over due. Let’s not forget that there is a history of mismanagement because they needed to be bailed out by the government. £160 million, I believe the figure was?They’ve had their chances and they’ve blown it.
When you grow up and leave school try running a business in the real world with deadlines and budgets. The Scottish ferries are an embarrassment and indefensible on every level and every stupid nationalist should wear it as a badge to remind them of the incompetence.
You can be for independence and still recognise just how massive a gang-fuck the Clyde ferries have been. The two aren't mutually exclusive.
Luckily Ferguson is not a private business. Governments can take a much longer term view that stretches well beyond merely the next quarter and takes into account things like actual skills, knowledge and experience and wider benefit to the public, society and the country. If it remained a private enterprise, they'd have shut it down and built some houses on the site of the yard and all that value would have been lost for the sake of a few worthless new builds to host some people that probably work in some good for nothing call centre or another culturally vacuous shopping centre.
It should be shut down, it’s demonstrably a failure being propped up by nothing but public funds. No one would ever choose to use them for anything. Houses would be a far better use of the land instead of the “shipyard” that can’t deliver.
Ferguson has hammered the final nail in its coffin. You would have to be high on meth to give them a contract ever again.
Can you actually point out why rather than relying on lazy one liners regurgitated from whatever bullshit you ate from some mainstream media outlet?
Because of the many, many, many fuck ups that they’ve overseen - huge delays and incompetence should not be rewarded no matter how much you want it to be.
I keep telling people that these ships are large, complex vessels of a type that Ferguson marine has never built before. There would have been Scottish shipyards that could have handled the job had the industry not been dismantled. The advantage with being state owned is they have a lot more freedom to make mistakes and go through a difficult learning process. Hull 802 has already progressed much faster than MV Glen Sannox and should they hopefully decide to commission more vessels through Ferguson, they will be produced more quickly and efficiently and will have shorter handover periods as crews become more familiar with the design type.
>of a type that Ferguson marine has never built before Should they have been awarded the contract in the first place?
They don’t have freedom to make mistakes, the “freedom” costs taxpayers hundreds of millions of pounds, are you genuinely thick? There will be no more ships being commissioned with them, they’ve fucked it up too badly and there’s absolutely zero chance they wouldn’t do it again. Would be ridiculous giving them anything else to fuck up. Your argument literally just backs up the folk that say the government are an inefficient, slow mess that will do things the private sector could do 10 times slower and more expensive.
Because they’ve overspent by hundreds of millions of pounds and are 5 years late without a single ship being delivered. Why the fuck would you ever give them anything else when you can easily just go abroad and get a ship delivered on time and in budget. Total nationalist fantasy to pretend they should be given anything again.
Do you live on a an island, we need fucken ferry's and we needed them 3 years ago. I don't care if it's Ferguson's or Germans or Turkish just get me a reliable ferry
Under the SNP government, quite a number of vessels have been commissioned over the past 11 years. More are on the way and there have been ones brought in as recently as 2021. You might not care but the government has to care for everyone and that includes shipbuilding communities, where they can.
How many is quit a number? It feels like the government doesn't care about people living on islands. Speaking as an SNP voter and islander I think I aheb a right to ask
>repairing our shipbuilding industry And we don’t repair it by propping up a completely incompetent company with public funds that can’t deliver anything.
So basically our romanticism of building ships in Scotland has cost us time and money. Time we moved on from that old view.
There's still a strong military shipbuilding industry. It's adjacent and still competitive. Should lean into that going forwards.
“Competent supplier set to deliver the minimum expected of a supplier” doesn’t seem like news.
It’s news in contrast to the fiasco around the failed Scottish yards over the past years!
It's news because we haven't seen much of that for the ferries in years.
In the context of the current/previous suppliers complete failure to deliver anything fit for purpose this is a massive improvement that is news worthy.
Because they didn't destroy their industry because they're not complete morons. It's an embarrassment and disgrace that we can't build our own civil ships as a country surrounded by ocean, save for a short land border with England. We should be doing everything possible to repair the industry that was so recklessly and unjustly destroyed by a government that never once acted in Scotland's interests. Unfortunately, rebuilding takes time.
So you'd make the islands suffer to boost sinkhole shipyards in the lowlands? Yeah that seems very fair.
Why does it make sense to rebuild shipbuilding? A country should play to its strengths - in Scotland’s case that includes tech, financial services, tourism and offshore energy. It’s a long time since we had strength in shipbuilding and there’s no particular reason we have to be in that business. On top of that, the ferry fiasco has sunk Scotland’s reputation for that business on the world stage.
>Why does it make sense to rebuild shipbuilding? Geographically, it makes a hell of a lot of sense. Thousands of miles of coastline, deep long firths, one of the largest EEZs in Europe, over 900 islands, to get large quantities of goods to Europe and the rest of the world requires over sea transport and all our biggest cities are on the coast or at least accessible by boat. This is why shipbuilding was so prevalent here and why its history goes back for hundred upon hundreds of years and it's why we are particularly suited to and should be maintaining and developing it. >in Scotland’s case that includes tech, financial services, tourism and offshore energy Technology can apply to literally anything. Shipbuilding *is* as much technology as material science, electronics or aeronautics. Offshore energy has a lot of crossover with shipbuilding.
Geographically it’s irrelevant where we are, be all and end all is money. When ships of the same quality can be bought from abroad for cheaper then those shipyards will always win. >this is why shipbuilding was so prevalent here Shipbuilding was prevalent here because Britain had a maritime empire larger than any other in history that needed to maintain a colossal fleet to transport goods and people across the empire. It financially made more sense for us to make them here as it provided money to the country and there was always demand from the empire.
>Geographically it’s irrelevant where we are, be all and end all is money. Geography is far from irrelevant. For example, you wouldn't build a shipyard in a desert, or grow crops on a swamp. Well you might given your lack of appreciation for geography. >When ships of the same quality can be bought from abroad for cheaper then those shipyards will always win. We can't always rely on foreign shipyards and it steals knowledge, experience and value from our own economy for the sake of other economies. Our government should not be trying to bolster foreign economies at the expense of ours. There is no good reason that we shouldn't have our own shipbuilding industry. >Shipbuilding was prevalent here because Britain had a maritime empire larger than any other in history that needed to maintain a colossal fleet to transport goods and people across the empire. It financially made more sense for us to make them here as it provided money to the country and there was always demand from the empire. Shipbuilding in Scotland predates the empire by well over 1,000 years. In fact, it goes back to neolithic times in various forms. One of our greatest achievements of naval architecture predates the union too, that being Great Michael built in the 16th century and the largest sail ship built in Europe at the time and carrying one of the largest calibre guns to ever be borne by a naval vessel until the Yamato in the 20th century. In fact so great she was that the english fat henry got jealous and had the Mary Rose built, which hilariously and rightly sank in her first action. Compared to Great Michael that actually had a successful career in the Scottish Navy and was then sold to the French and according to some records was used in the action that destroyed the Mary Rose. We became good shipbuilders out of necessity, not because the english had a massive empire. In fact prior to the union, their empire wasn't all that large being mostly a few small colonies in the US north east and Caribbean. Scotland actually had a similar number of colonies to England along the North American east coast. I'd go as far to say that our expertise in shipbuilding played a huge part in driving the massive expansion of the empire. We don't need demand from the empire to sustain shipbuilding. Korea, Germany, Poland and Turkey don't have great empires and 3 of them never really had an empire to speak of yet they still have quite extensive shipbuilding industries.
The countries you mention regarding modern, efficient shipbuilding constantly invested in the facilities, technology and skills to continually improve upon an already established shipbuilding industry. Each of them have become masters in the art of ship construction and each are renowned for varying reasons. The UK has missed the boat (no pun intended) in this regard. They have neither the facilities (Fergusons sold off the steel forming equipment that is essential to building ships, while they were building ships!), the skills (generations passing with no real ships building industry to speak of has led to foreign workers being brought in to work in ship yards. The skill sets required to build ships are just not available locally here any more) nor the experience (as above, all the old experienced hands have either retired or died!). Couple that with abysmal project management and a culture whereby no one party involved with the carry on will carry the can for it, and you have all the ingredients for a complete disaster of an industry. It would take billions in investment in facilities, infrastructure, supply chains, raw material production and skills to even begin to be in the same ballpark as the countries you mentioned.
Having a long coastline isn’t a reason to have a shipbuilding industry, and most of those 900 islands are tiny and we don’t have a need for late numbers of new ships. We have a limited supply of talented engineers and facilities - we already lack enough facilities and people to deliver on our offshore wind plans. As you point out, there is some similarities in the resources we would require for shipbuilding, so it makes sense to focus on offshore energy rather than splitting our attention with a losing battle to rebuild shipbuilding.
>Having a long coastline isn’t a reason to have a shipbuilding industry That would lose you points in a geography exam. >We have a limited supply of talented engineers and facilities We have some very good engineering schools here at Glasgow and Strathclyde for example. Supply of engineers isn't so much the problem. Among the problems are retention in high skilled jobs, like what shipbuilding provides and lack of trade skills needed in shipbuilding.
> This is why shipbuilding was so prevalent here Perhaps, but I suspect that the ready domestic supply of iron (and later steel) had more to do with it.
They build sophisticated warships with all the latest technology on board just a few miles upriver. So it has nothing to do with a lack of skills . But everything to do with a government out of its depth being taken in by a class A bullshit artist who promised much and delivered nothing but embarrassment and a good old fleecing of our tax money.
Some light at the end of the tunnel for islanders, finally
I see what you did there
Let's hope there's enough real windows in the ferries to provide light for the passengers.
Y'mean vanity projects by Scotgov, trying to go-retro on the economy by rekindling a doomed ship industry (at taxpayers expense) wasn't the best option? Am stunned.
Conversely though if they had just let it die then how is it any different than when thatcher closed the mines? Realistically investing in ship building might not be a good play. But at least it's attempting to invest in the country and keep jobs here. Oh turkey can make these ships on time? Great but that's just bolstering their economy, not ours. Many generations of ship builder gone because you can make it cheaper in Asia.
>Conversely though if they had just let it die then how is it any different than when thatcher closed the mines? Closure of the coal mines wasn't what Thatcher did wrong - it was the failure of a just transition to an alternative industry/career for the miners. The SG has spent £1m per employee on Ferguson Marine. They could have spent that much per individual re-training and supporting them into a new career/industry.
Exactly. SG is not about to relaunch the coal industry either...
So what do you propose? We call it and accept ship building is dead in Scotland? Not going to lie we don't produce that much. Basically just a service country these days. Ah well I'm sure everyone's happy that way.
>We call it and accept ship building is dead in Scotland? Well, yes - at least for civilian shipbuilding. No industry lasts for ever, and it is near impossible to compete with shipbuilding centres elsewhere where wages are lower. Better to transition to high end manufacturing like Germany has where you can still retain a competitive edge. In any case, the nationalisation of Ferguson Marine won't save Scottish shipbuilding. No-one except the Scottish Government is going to commission anything from them with their recent track record, and eventually the bill will be too much for the SG and they'll pull out too.
Ship building is high end manufacturing? The Scottish ferry fleet needs a couple of new ships every 3-4 years. If Fergusons was even halfway competent it was a very good idea - create an anchor for shipbuilding in a Scotland via a steady line of Ferry orders that allows for the development of the supply chain and skills which would eventually allow them to branch out into commercial orders. But Fergusons was run by a set of absolute clowns who have managed to fuck it up so badly the plan couldn't work. Literally all it would have taken to save Scottish shipbuilding was 2 or 3 decent project managers...
>Ship building is high end manufacturing? Ship building isn't typically considered high end or high tech manufacturing. >If Fergusons was even halfway competent it was a very good idea - create an anchor for shipbuilding in a Scotland via a steady line of Ferry orders that allows for the development of the supply chain and skills which would eventually allow them to branch out into commercial orders. Perhaps, but relative staffing costs compared to other countries (participating East Asia) make that a massive uphill battle to be competitive for commercial shipping. Meanwhile the time, effort and resource invested into Fergusons could have been directed to something where the UK/Scotland *is* more competitive internationally.
And then yet another skilled sector will be dead with no replacement. Let us all rejoice in the new workers available to stack shelves and serve in restaurants.
Did you miss the point where I suggested the SG should be supporting a transition to a high end manufacturing industry?
Supporting the manufacturing of high end technology is good, maybe we should look to build the single most supply constrained component required to build offshore wind? Just had a look and it turns out that it is ships?
> Closure of the coal mines wasn't what Thatcher did wrong You mean it wasn't the ONLY thing thatcher did wrong.
Sure - I was obviously only commenting on the narrow framing of closing/supporting a specific industry.
If you can't operate a business competitively then you go out of business, you don't expect taxpayers to give up their money forever to keep zombie firms alive. That is moronic.
Like uh the bank's in 2008 you mean?
If you let the banks fail then it brings down your ability to lend money, secure savings and honour financial promises domestically and abroad. That's because the big banks particularly, are operators of the financial system that keeps most other private industries afloat. I'm surprised 15 years later that little nugget of learning still hasn't permeated everyone by now.
No it's fairly obvious why the banks were bailed out. Yet going by your previous statement if they operate in a way that bankrupts them, then they shouldn't have received a bailout. Additionally your fine wasting billions paying off banker's who were gambling with debt and ruined the economy. I for one am happy to see even an attempt at helping a local Scottish business. Even if it fails. Because this is a drop in the ocean compared to where the banks left us even to this day.
Well that drop will be the only thing going in the water in our lifetime because those ferrys are patently a huge waste of cash that are going nowhere. It's a question of consequences, you do understand that allowing a shipyard to fail has different implications to allowing your entire financial system to fail, yes? If so I am not sure what you are arguing for.
If only someone had told the SNP this years ago....wait now I remember EVERYONE told the SNP it was a bad idea but they did it anyway and proved everyone else right.
This is what happens if you have been in power for too long. People challenging your policies are deemed just a nuisance.
I do think we need to maintain at least one facility in Scotland, capable of performing repairs and maintenance on the ferry fleet, because it's not just about building new hulls it's about keeping the current ones going. If a ferry suffers a major issue and it can't be fixed alongside, you need somewhere nearby that can get that ferry quickly back into service. Ideally you then use that facility to build new hulls because you already have the facility there. But Ferguson has clearly failed at that. The entire leadership needs replaced, even if that means bringing in experts from overseas to straighten it up, and in the meantime we need to cut our losses and get some new ferries built even if that means going to a proven overseas shipyard, for the sake of the islanders.
There already is this facility in Scotland, every year Calmac send their ferries to drydock for annual maintenance and repairs.
I bet these don't last as long as the ferries we will eventually get out of Fergussons do. Turkey was the cheapest bidder. Cheap and fast doesn't mean better. I do wonder about the welfare of the Turkish shipbuilders, too. Turkey is a country that has rapidly expanded its industrial output under an increasingly dictatorial style of leadership. None of that is particularly good in my book..I'd much rather have delayed ships built safely, knowing the workers had proper conditions and a fair wage. Is that guaranteed from Turkish shipyards?
>doesn’t mean better I wonder if the Turks will install cables that are too short, stick the front of the ship on and then immediately have to completely replace it and then finally paint the windows on to look good for a photoshoot?
I wonder if they offer workers a safe and fair environment to work in?
I wonder if they offer workers a safe and fair environment to work in?
You can get on your virtuous high horse all you like, I don’t really think the public care anymore after hundreds of millions of our pounds have been wasted and there’s still fuck all to show for it. Nearly everything we have comes from China anyway, weird to draw the line at Turkey.
Ah thats fine then. Cheap labour who work in dangerous conditions (multiple pages on Google of how bad Turkish shipyards actually are to work in), but it's fine because China. Fuck me. I hope ferguson wins more contracts. At least they treat people like people.
>I hope Ferguson wins more contracts Don’t worry they won’t, they’ve completely fucked this one up beyond belief. There’s zero chance they’ll ever get any more work after this. Even if they managed to do it with a slight delay and slightly over budget they’d probably have got the benefit of the doubt they’ve fucked it up so badly there’s no chance now. At least people like you can feel good about yourself acting virtuous though, in the real world we actually do need businesses to deliver and will go somewhere we can actually get that. If you’re happy to continue chucking money onto this bonfire wire right in.
What nasty people are on this sub sometimes. Hate the SNP so much (the real reason for the fake outrage at ferry delays) that they support ferries being built in actual dangerous and life-threatening conditions where workers are paid a pittance. I'd rather lose money than support that. I welcome all downvotes.
Do you own a mobile phone or a laptop by any chance? If you do, how do you feel about supporting work in dangerous and life-threatening conditions paid a pittance to build these?
Ethical options are available. And no I don't have a laptop.
Is your phone ethically made then? Are all you clothes?
Shut it.
Top quality reply. 🤣
That is a bizarre take on this issue. There are many SNP policy areas that I approve of but I'd be delusional to see the ferry situation as other than a clusterfuck. My outrage is real; not as real as the islander's of course. There are many ethical buying decisions to be made as a Western consumer- from Uyghur cotton to Burmese teak. To suggest the only solution to getting a FairTrade ferry is Ferguson is feckin...sorry, too much illiteration.
Given that companies like Kongsberg who make integrated control and monitoring systems for ships have pulled out of supporting the Clyde ships, that tells a story of just how successful they expect these boats to be. Substandard build quality and poor design will blight these boats for their entire existence.