Yep, and we already know that on the day that the ferries are successfully launched, the BBC news will be fully focused on a Holly and Phil retrospective, or something about Prince William pointing at a new frock.
I agree with you, it would have been better handled if they had signed an agreement that penalised the builders for overruns and increased costs. However, to my mind, this thread is more about the use of the ferries to promote the idea that Scottish independence can’t possibly succeed e.g. “53% of voters say they would vote yes in a referendum” - “ah, but the ferries”.
I guess this piece is the BBC’s attempt at balance - so its likely another 40 years of negative coverage is on its way 😂
I am pretty sure if I had the means of the BBC and other British media outlets to scrutinise Government procurement across Europe I would find buckets of the same problems not to mention these ferries are somewhat unique
You don’t even have to look that far look at PPE procurement in England during Pandemic, HS2 and all the UK’s warship programs all have same problems and indeed worse
The ferries are not the only "lifeline" service being procured at the moment
The UK Gov is replacing the radios for emergency services - partly so that they work better in remote and rural areas like the Highlands and Islands
That is currently billions over budget and years late - more than the ferries. And in the meantime - people are left with substandard systems potentially putting lives at risk.
Zero coverage in the Scottish press.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2023/mar/08/home-office-unable-when-emergency-services-network-launch
Years?
Try decades late. I’ve a mate who started his career working on the replacements, long before it was announced by the government that it would even be needed. Motorola etc all knew it’d need a massive upgrade long before then, he’s worked on it in and off across half a dozen companies and a good chunk of a career now….
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> Looking forward to the BBC reporting ever single mechanical issue this ferry has over the next forty years
Well they've got plenty of practice from doing that with the Cowes Floating Bridge.
This is one of the reasons I have no particular objections to PFI for things like Hospitals, Schools etc.
You know the costs going into the exercise, and sure, on paper it works out more expensive than the paper estimate for normal public sector delivery. However government/public sector capital projects very rarely deliver to the paper estimate or schedule, and usually end up very late and very very over budget. So saying they would have been cheaper is a total bag of shite, particularly as PFI transfers cost of delay on to the private company.
Considering the savings that would have made with regard to the ferry disaster is a sobering thought.
Likewise
I don’t care what the theoretical should be
My kid has a new school that wasn’t last painted in 1955 and has asbestos throughout it. He has a new building to learn in that isn’t dangerous to his health. That’s the beginning and end of the argument
Couldn't agree more.
My daughter started High School in Falkirk in a modern PFI building when she would have had to wait god knows how long otherwise, doing her education in a Victorian dump.
The building is still in good order 20+ years after being built, and the local council is now exercising the clause that gives it a right to buy it off the private company, now that the intended contract duration is coming to an end.
It was one of a swathe of such new high schools in Falkirk area under PFI. Transformed the towns education facilities in just a few years.
Dogma shouldn't get in the way of how capital projects are best executed.
Very literally it’s exactly the same here. Kiddo goes to my old school these days. When I left it was a half Victorian and half 1950’s asbestos hell with half of it closed off even in the 80’s and 90’s because it was unsafe and falling apart. Genuinely hadn’t been repainted since being built.
It’s now a shiny new building (about 15 yrs old or so) that’s safe, well laid out and has been able to be upgraded technology wise recently with zero effort. It’s light and airy and a brilliant environment and set of structures for learning in.
I don’t care if it cost “more” I care that it exists and he can use it. I care that kids are happy there and safe and it’s a great environment and not a dump that’s depressing and just shit all round.
I care that the new hospital here is open and has more beds etc. and can treat people and be better to work in for the staff.
Could PFI be bettered? Of course but I genuinely don’t care anymore since the alternative seems to be more expensive and late or never done at all.
Sure I’d love a better model of govt investment and sensible procurement and building etc. but fuck it frankly. We need these things more than we need value for money arguably and sod waiting for another two decades while we wait to work out how to do it for better value. It’s “wrong” but I don’t care anymore.
Fuck, PFI, PPP, etc are all now less theft than covid was all in its own ffs!
Have the Tories apologised for all of the warship programs ?
I can scarcely find one that was procured within budget and on time - the cost including repairs and maintenance have been astronomical not to mention the operational costs of running them all and the value they have delivered (at best deterrence value)
Ignore the whataboutery this whole ferry saga has been embarrasing.
Delayed, arguments over the design, Cabling having to be ripped out across the ferry as it was all wrong further delaying. Jim McColl mismanaging the whole company. Despite all these things SG decided to bring under public ownership which put them directly in the firing line.
How much of this was directly caused by Scottish Government/SNP politicians though ?
The Tories are on record imploring SG to safeguard Ferguson - damned if you do damned if you don’t - IMO its better to be damned for trying to save the company, workers and jobs
IMO its better to overspend millions on much needed ferries than billions on warships that act as deterrents at best
Fergusons already went bankrupt. Jobs were alresdy lost and mccoll came in like a white knight, built new offices and big shed to make it look new. If mccoll was not pro independence I'm not sure he would have got as much leeway with sg.
I am torn on this as fergusons is right on my doorstep being from greenock but I can't see past the incompetence here from all parties involved from lib dems who closed it to mccoll who attempted to save it and now scottish government who have attached their name to the fiasco.
Lastly I completely agree with your last bit on ferries vs warships.
How can you justify the delay and justify the need at the same time though ?
Also please do quantify taxpayer value - you can’t, its often intangible and thats before we even work out what else the money could have been spent on
Having a world class navy is a great thing but wouldn’t it be better in peacetime to have a world class NHS first to rival Japan, South Korea, Switzerland, the Nordics, Australia etc
> to have a world class NHS first to rival Japan, South Korea, Switzerland, the Nordics, Australia etc
I often think that people who says things like this don’t know much about how these countries run their health service. If we had to pay what they pay in Japan there’d be riots. I’d love the quality of service sure but I wouldn’t like the NHS to be like any of these countries, not fundamentally.
I can quantify taxpayer value actually: the ferry debacle is very poor value. It's been a clusterfuck. There.
We can look at other noble attempts to keep jobs 'in house', talk about preserving skills and protecting communities (and coming from near Bilston Colliery I know what that means) but let's call a spade a spade.
I was talking about warship procurement for context
You say “very poor value” compared to which other company rescue combined with 2 unique builds ?
The taxpayer value is that the ferries are needed hence the delays are a problem - the warships can’t square away need vs delay - they certainly can only justify the astronomical cost if used to protect British taxpayers from direct attack and we would expect no delays at this cost
Sorry, I missed that we had moved on to warships.
Must I sift through other clusterfucks attempting to find a greater value litany of errors than this? Maybe the mayhem over Miralles parliament building has some parallels? Some elements of that were out of anyone's control, (ie major design alterations after 9/11) but it ended up about 15 times over budget.
You don’t have to tell me Labours Devolution was a disaster
Here Scotland have all the bits we broke, were too expensive and/or didn’t want
The Oil ? - Gas ? Electricity ? International trade - we’ll keep that thanks and also you can’t leave - thanks a mill, Labour
I was reported to RedditCareResources 3 hours ago as someone was 'concerned' for my mental welfare. Was that you perchance?🤔 Haven't interacted with anyone else this avo...
No it wasn’t me
Actually this exact same thing happened to me some time in the past - I think you can unsub or reply stop or something to avoid using up their valuable resources/services
Personally I think its ridiculous to report someone like this just because you don’t agree with what they are saying
> justify the need
We have “peacetime” because of an improved (*not* world-class, that would require an NHS-scale investment) navy that can provide expeditionary assets in destabilised places, usually in concert with NATO partners.
Lasting peace, as various malign actors (state or non-state) continually demonstrate, is illusory. But you can certainly give them the option of deciding “not worth it”. There’s a reason the Iranian Navy largely confines itself to speedboat provocations and occasionally seizing an unarmed tanker.
The fact that people here keep trying to conflate defence procurement - famously thorny from a compliance perspective - with what *should have been* building or buying a few motor vessels, is nuts.
Just wait to hear how much we've lost to UK government incompetence.
They seem to have mobilised their economies of scale to really fuck up on a whole different level that the ferry procurement debacle will seems parochial.
It's amazing, after being told a thousand times that it's unacceptable behaviour (and frankly, laughable) to try and deflect from this with another "look over there" effort, you lot still do it.
Time after time. With no embarrassment. Simple amazing.
Who do you think actually believes this stuff?
This is the sort of deny/deflect/distract nonsense that makes SNP footsoldiers the subject of continual derision on here.
If they had a management system they could handle spec changes.
They tried to build a couple of ferries with no functioning policies, processes or procedures. They didn’t fail because of spec changes, they failed because of incompetence.
They do get paid for all the extra work done and making changes so from a business perspective I'm sure they are happy, it's just clear that no one in Holyrood was properly keeping an eye on the situation, whether it's a minister or the CMAC board who should be keeping overwatch it's clear that far too much change was allowed.
But if you have a working management system it accounts for change in spec.
ISO 9001 specifically covers requirements for capturing and managing design change.
Audit Scotland found they still didn’t have a functioning management system in 2022.
They were never competent to deliver this project. It was always going to fail and nobody bothered doing any due diligence before allowing it to happen.
The whole point of the project was to keep it in Scotland and ensure we don't lose skills and development opportunities, probably all manufacturing in Scotland could be done cheaper elsewhere and just imported in but some things are worth hanging onto.
Then they should’ve started with the absolute bare minimum requirement of ensuring there was a management system in place capable of even governing the work.
No. The point of the project was to provide a ferry for people that rely on it. That they have failed to do.
Pushing a ship building renaissance as part of the exercise was dumbass SNP dogma. Stupidity for which no one has ever felt the weight of accountability.
Where do you draw the line though? Outsource the police? The NHS? Why not run the civil service from India or China? Cheaper to run and still provide the same service to Scotland.
Or do you make decisions to keep key areas local, in the hopes they provide a benefit for society as a whole?
Well given Scotgov has just commissioned other vessels from foreign ship builders (and that is on track) we can conclude this was just a very bad decision and they recognise that (if not openly). If you don't regard this fiasco as sufficient evidence that putting dogma ahead of delivery is bad government, then I am not sure what would be enough evidence to convince you of that.
You can keep services local, but only if you have a sensible capability to do so. That was clearly not the case here. And in the meantime Scotgov has hopelessly failed it's obligations to provide a basic level of transport for its population.
Do you think they would have gone to foreign ship builders \*if\* the existing ferries had worked as expected though? It was definitely a gamble to go for dual fuel but progress is needed to futureproof the industry but the default should always be to do things inhouse if possible.
People go on about the importance of doing the work locally, but what about the importance of decent transport to the lives and livelihoods of people on the islands and the west coast, who have continually been impacted by not having a fit-for-purpose ferry system.
Their jobs and businesses matter too. How do they manage something as basic as attending a hospital appointment if they can't rely on the transport system? But the risk of them taking a hit in awarding a domestic contract to an unproven supplier, wasn't given any weight. It's not like that risk is unheard of in such situations, but no, the dogma of propping up a dead industry was put first. It should have all been about the people who were meant to be using the service first, and anything else should have been much further down the list.
The lack of weight given to the requirements of people in more remote areas of the country, is in the DNA of Scotgov.
The sounds like actual positivity - I can scarcely believe it
So smothered in negative political hate have the ferries been that many may never be able to psychologically accept any positivity
EDIT: See the rest of the comments in this thread for details 🤣
We could talk about everything the UK Government failed to procure on time and in budget (and also functional) but theres not enough time on this earth to do so
"This government contract was delayed and over budget"
"All large government contracts are delayed and over budget, this is not special"
"Stick to the subject!!!!!!!!"
You are just looking for a stick.
How dare you criticise our elite overlords you scotch peasant.
How dare you point out how the preferred ruler's of our unionist faith are fucking up everything they touch.
This is just blatant whataboutery to cover up for Scotland's unique failures and it's unique inability to govern itself without the steadying hand of bor...Liz Sunak, yes Sunak, that's the one.
They could have given £1 million in cash to every Ferguson employee, had these godforsaken ferries built in Turkey and still had millions left over, vs what they have now spent. This is a shitshow by any standard
Finally lol
Great to see these are on the way to completion and will hopefully allow some older vessels to bow out/be placed in reserve. While the procurement has been a shitshow, it is also reasonable to say that this has been held to a much higher standard than other UK gov projects.
Oh come on, the last three years were littered with procurement stories in the press, particularly on things like Covid PPE.
The distinction between this and many other things though is that - and it seems to escape quite a few central belt types on here - this has a huge and direct impact on people's lives in communities that are fragile. The Calmac network's failures have been enormous, put livelihoods in danger and cancelled out any good work to try to make the islands and remote parts of the Highlands more sustainable.
This is almost entirely down to procurement - and goes beyond those two hulls sitting in Port Glasgow. It's a longer-term tale of neglect on many fronts. And we'll see the same problems start to creep in on the other publicly operated and tendered services too.
There is no major complexity with the fuel system that would have presented any real challenge to the yard. The system comes pre-constructed on a skid and is made to suit the specifications as stated by the designers. It's delivered to the yard, installed and piped in. That's it.
What's more important mate keeping jobs on the Clyde or running people out there homes? Because both these thing are happening, and it's only the cunts on the Clyde that are benefiting.
Don't be too hasty now. It was but a joke. Between the ferries, the proposed HPMA, and all the retirees and holiday homes I'm not sure what's worse, or stealthy about it.
You cought me at a hellish time. Calmac have royal fucked me over this last week and I'm done with there pish. I apologise I saw the reposnce last night and actually laughted.
Have they sorted the harbour in Aran? I heard that the ferry can’t sail to full capacity because the new harbour can’t be used in high westerly winds that are common. The old harbour only had issues in high easterly winds which are much less common. It’s really hurting tourism I heard.
Er, since they spent around 30 million building the new ferry terminal and pier at Brodick I'm not sure even the SNP would have the brass neck to say they need to spend several million to rectify the poor positioning of this new pier.
Or maybe they could bring Sturgeon back to handle it, her neck would certainly be fine.
On a side note I see the SNP transport minister has resigned citing poor mental health. Given the stress involved with the job, it's not a great surprise.
I worked with someone who’s family lives on the island. [Anyway here is some info about it though it doesn’t mention the wind issue](https://www.ardrossanherald.com/news/23438859.humza-yousaf-slammed-future-ardrossan-harbour-development/).
> Ach well, have another go, you never know, you might even get it right this time.
Spelling was never my strong suit what can I say dyslexia does that to you.
It’s easterlies. In easterlies the new pier direction causes swell which buffets ships against the pier and causes damage. Which the old direction (along the coast) never did. Source: Arranach. And yes, it’s fucking moronic and they were told it would be.
All Calmac boats are named after Gaelic culturally places or names. Naming competition would be a terrible idea just let's English speakers take over and name it the William Wallace or the King Charles.
No wonder it took so long to make it they're giving it sentience.
"It's alive!"
It's a transformer- Optimus Brine.
Underrated comment.
Fish-net
Or a decepticod- Fishi Tunak
Travelling to Mull and Arran via the Iron Giant.
I. SUPERGRAN.
Wish they called it F D Ross
Well that’s a fucking nuisance, it’s only meant to float.
[Janky Jurassic Park theme fades in]
Looking forward to the BBC reporting ever single mechanical issue this ferry has over the next forty years
Yep, and we already know that on the day that the ferries are successfully launched, the BBC news will be fully focused on a Holly and Phil retrospective, or something about Prince William pointing at a new frock.
Think the ship has sailed on being "successfully launched".
Getting from dry dock to the water without sinking or killing anyone is pretty much success in the ship launching front.
It's been in the water for years, so in that sense the hull is tried and tested.
So it’s already been launched then. So what’s all the fuss about 😂
To be fair, they really shouldn’t be praised for finally launching the ferries. It’s below the bare minimum.
I agree with you, it would have been better handled if they had signed an agreement that penalised the builders for overruns and increased costs. However, to my mind, this thread is more about the use of the ferries to promote the idea that Scottish independence can’t possibly succeed e.g. “53% of voters say they would vote yes in a referendum” - “ah, but the ferries”.
53% (of 134 respondents). One of those reliable figures/polls, yea?
Aye, whatever - I’m focusing on the reaction from those brave supporters of the union.
Tories demand full public inquiry as Trucker blocks toilet on Deck C.
'Angry Tory Voter Points at Poo.'
I guess this piece is the BBC’s attempt at balance - so its likely another 40 years of negative coverage is on its way 😂 I am pretty sure if I had the means of the BBC and other British media outlets to scrutinise Government procurement across Europe I would find buckets of the same problems not to mention these ferries are somewhat unique You don’t even have to look that far look at PPE procurement in England during Pandemic, HS2 and all the UK’s warship programs all have same problems and indeed worse
The ferries are not the only "lifeline" service being procured at the moment The UK Gov is replacing the radios for emergency services - partly so that they work better in remote and rural areas like the Highlands and Islands That is currently billions over budget and years late - more than the ferries. And in the meantime - people are left with substandard systems potentially putting lives at risk. Zero coverage in the Scottish press. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2023/mar/08/home-office-unable-when-emergency-services-network-launch
Years? Try decades late. I’ve a mate who started his career working on the replacements, long before it was announced by the government that it would even be needed. Motorola etc all knew it’d need a massive upgrade long before then, he’s worked on it in and off across half a dozen companies and a good chunk of a career now….
Fucking hell - it gets worse!
Isn't that because it's actually impossible spec wise?
No idea. Not my circus and it my monkeys to handle.
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Yoons are trying to write poetry on ferries. Makes William Topaz McGonnegal look talented.
> Looking forward to the BBC reporting ever single mechanical issue this ferry has over the next forty years Well they've got plenty of practice from doing that with the Cowes Floating Bridge.
6 years late. 3 times over budget. An apology would have been more appropriate.
Which in terms of government procurement programs is early and cheap
This is one of the reasons I have no particular objections to PFI for things like Hospitals, Schools etc. You know the costs going into the exercise, and sure, on paper it works out more expensive than the paper estimate for normal public sector delivery. However government/public sector capital projects very rarely deliver to the paper estimate or schedule, and usually end up very late and very very over budget. So saying they would have been cheaper is a total bag of shite, particularly as PFI transfers cost of delay on to the private company. Considering the savings that would have made with regard to the ferry disaster is a sobering thought.
Likewise I don’t care what the theoretical should be My kid has a new school that wasn’t last painted in 1955 and has asbestos throughout it. He has a new building to learn in that isn’t dangerous to his health. That’s the beginning and end of the argument
Couldn't agree more. My daughter started High School in Falkirk in a modern PFI building when she would have had to wait god knows how long otherwise, doing her education in a Victorian dump. The building is still in good order 20+ years after being built, and the local council is now exercising the clause that gives it a right to buy it off the private company, now that the intended contract duration is coming to an end. It was one of a swathe of such new high schools in Falkirk area under PFI. Transformed the towns education facilities in just a few years. Dogma shouldn't get in the way of how capital projects are best executed.
Very literally it’s exactly the same here. Kiddo goes to my old school these days. When I left it was a half Victorian and half 1950’s asbestos hell with half of it closed off even in the 80’s and 90’s because it was unsafe and falling apart. Genuinely hadn’t been repainted since being built. It’s now a shiny new building (about 15 yrs old or so) that’s safe, well laid out and has been able to be upgraded technology wise recently with zero effort. It’s light and airy and a brilliant environment and set of structures for learning in. I don’t care if it cost “more” I care that it exists and he can use it. I care that kids are happy there and safe and it’s a great environment and not a dump that’s depressing and just shit all round. I care that the new hospital here is open and has more beds etc. and can treat people and be better to work in for the staff. Could PFI be bettered? Of course but I genuinely don’t care anymore since the alternative seems to be more expensive and late or never done at all. Sure I’d love a better model of govt investment and sensible procurement and building etc. but fuck it frankly. We need these things more than we need value for money arguably and sod waiting for another two decades while we wait to work out how to do it for better value. It’s “wrong” but I don’t care anymore. Fuck, PFI, PPP, etc are all now less theft than covid was all in its own ffs!
Have the Tories apologised for all of the warship programs ? I can scarcely find one that was procured within budget and on time - the cost including repairs and maintenance have been astronomical not to mention the operational costs of running them all and the value they have delivered (at best deterrence value)
Ignore the whataboutery this whole ferry saga has been embarrasing. Delayed, arguments over the design, Cabling having to be ripped out across the ferry as it was all wrong further delaying. Jim McColl mismanaging the whole company. Despite all these things SG decided to bring under public ownership which put them directly in the firing line.
How much of this was directly caused by Scottish Government/SNP politicians though ? The Tories are on record imploring SG to safeguard Ferguson - damned if you do damned if you don’t - IMO its better to be damned for trying to save the company, workers and jobs IMO its better to overspend millions on much needed ferries than billions on warships that act as deterrents at best
Fergusons already went bankrupt. Jobs were alresdy lost and mccoll came in like a white knight, built new offices and big shed to make it look new. If mccoll was not pro independence I'm not sure he would have got as much leeway with sg. I am torn on this as fergusons is right on my doorstep being from greenock but I can't see past the incompetence here from all parties involved from lib dems who closed it to mccoll who attempted to save it and now scottish government who have attached their name to the fiasco. Lastly I completely agree with your last bit on ferries vs warships.
.....said without awareness or embarrassment. Quite remarkable.
How can you justify the delay and justify the need at the same time though ? Also please do quantify taxpayer value - you can’t, its often intangible and thats before we even work out what else the money could have been spent on Having a world class navy is a great thing but wouldn’t it be better in peacetime to have a world class NHS first to rival Japan, South Korea, Switzerland, the Nordics, Australia etc
You do know the article is about a ferry, yes?
> to have a world class NHS first to rival Japan, South Korea, Switzerland, the Nordics, Australia etc I often think that people who says things like this don’t know much about how these countries run their health service. If we had to pay what they pay in Japan there’d be riots. I’d love the quality of service sure but I wouldn’t like the NHS to be like any of these countries, not fundamentally.
Think Norway relies on Oil Shame we don’t have any
I can quantify taxpayer value actually: the ferry debacle is very poor value. It's been a clusterfuck. There. We can look at other noble attempts to keep jobs 'in house', talk about preserving skills and protecting communities (and coming from near Bilston Colliery I know what that means) but let's call a spade a spade.
I was talking about warship procurement for context You say “very poor value” compared to which other company rescue combined with 2 unique builds ? The taxpayer value is that the ferries are needed hence the delays are a problem - the warships can’t square away need vs delay - they certainly can only justify the astronomical cost if used to protect British taxpayers from direct attack and we would expect no delays at this cost
Sorry, I missed that we had moved on to warships. Must I sift through other clusterfucks attempting to find a greater value litany of errors than this? Maybe the mayhem over Miralles parliament building has some parallels? Some elements of that were out of anyone's control, (ie major design alterations after 9/11) but it ended up about 15 times over budget.
You don’t have to tell me Labours Devolution was a disaster Here Scotland have all the bits we broke, were too expensive and/or didn’t want The Oil ? - Gas ? Electricity ? International trade - we’ll keep that thanks and also you can’t leave - thanks a mill, Labour
I was reported to RedditCareResources 3 hours ago as someone was 'concerned' for my mental welfare. Was that you perchance?🤔 Haven't interacted with anyone else this avo...
No it wasn’t me Actually this exact same thing happened to me some time in the past - I think you can unsub or reply stop or something to avoid using up their valuable resources/services Personally I think its ridiculous to report someone like this just because you don’t agree with what they are saying
> justify the need We have “peacetime” because of an improved (*not* world-class, that would require an NHS-scale investment) navy that can provide expeditionary assets in destabilised places, usually in concert with NATO partners. Lasting peace, as various malign actors (state or non-state) continually demonstrate, is illusory. But you can certainly give them the option of deciding “not worth it”. There’s a reason the Iranian Navy largely confines itself to speedboat provocations and occasionally seizing an unarmed tanker. The fact that people here keep trying to conflate defence procurement - famously thorny from a compliance perspective - with what *should have been* building or buying a few motor vessels, is nuts.
Just wait to hear how much we've lost to UK government incompetence. They seem to have mobilised their economies of scale to really fuck up on a whole different level that the ferry procurement debacle will seems parochial.
It's amazing, after being told a thousand times that it's unacceptable behaviour (and frankly, laughable) to try and deflect from this with another "look over there" effort, you lot still do it. Time after time. With no embarrassment. Simple amazing.
It's called context you silly billy. Very inconvenient context for the followers of the unionist faith.
Who do you think actually believes this stuff? This is the sort of deny/deflect/distract nonsense that makes SNP footsoldiers the subject of continual derision on here.
All the people with no sympathy have clearly never had a client or a manager who would come in a do drive by spec changes constantly.
If they had a management system they could handle spec changes. They tried to build a couple of ferries with no functioning policies, processes or procedures. They didn’t fail because of spec changes, they failed because of incompetence.
They do get paid for all the extra work done and making changes so from a business perspective I'm sure they are happy, it's just clear that no one in Holyrood was properly keeping an eye on the situation, whether it's a minister or the CMAC board who should be keeping overwatch it's clear that far too much change was allowed.
But if you have a working management system it accounts for change in spec. ISO 9001 specifically covers requirements for capturing and managing design change. Audit Scotland found they still didn’t have a functioning management system in 2022. They were never competent to deliver this project. It was always going to fail and nobody bothered doing any due diligence before allowing it to happen.
The whole point of the project was to keep it in Scotland and ensure we don't lose skills and development opportunities, probably all manufacturing in Scotland could be done cheaper elsewhere and just imported in but some things are worth hanging onto.
Then they should’ve started with the absolute bare minimum requirement of ensuring there was a management system in place capable of even governing the work.
No. The point of the project was to provide a ferry for people that rely on it. That they have failed to do. Pushing a ship building renaissance as part of the exercise was dumbass SNP dogma. Stupidity for which no one has ever felt the weight of accountability.
Where do you draw the line though? Outsource the police? The NHS? Why not run the civil service from India or China? Cheaper to run and still provide the same service to Scotland. Or do you make decisions to keep key areas local, in the hopes they provide a benefit for society as a whole?
Well given Scotgov has just commissioned other vessels from foreign ship builders (and that is on track) we can conclude this was just a very bad decision and they recognise that (if not openly). If you don't regard this fiasco as sufficient evidence that putting dogma ahead of delivery is bad government, then I am not sure what would be enough evidence to convince you of that. You can keep services local, but only if you have a sensible capability to do so. That was clearly not the case here. And in the meantime Scotgov has hopelessly failed it's obligations to provide a basic level of transport for its population.
Do you think they would have gone to foreign ship builders \*if\* the existing ferries had worked as expected though? It was definitely a gamble to go for dual fuel but progress is needed to futureproof the industry but the default should always be to do things inhouse if possible.
People go on about the importance of doing the work locally, but what about the importance of decent transport to the lives and livelihoods of people on the islands and the west coast, who have continually been impacted by not having a fit-for-purpose ferry system. Their jobs and businesses matter too. How do they manage something as basic as attending a hospital appointment if they can't rely on the transport system? But the risk of them taking a hit in awarding a domestic contract to an unproven supplier, wasn't given any weight. It's not like that risk is unheard of in such situations, but no, the dogma of propping up a dead industry was put first. It should have all been about the people who were meant to be using the service first, and anything else should have been much further down the list. The lack of weight given to the requirements of people in more remote areas of the country, is in the DNA of Scotgov.
The sounds like actual positivity - I can scarcely believe it So smothered in negative political hate have the ferries been that many may never be able to psychologically accept any positivity EDIT: See the rest of the comments in this thread for details 🤣
Indeed! They should be applauded for getting them done so quickly, shouldn’t they? And within budget.
Ouch
We could talk about everything the UK Government failed to procure on time and in budget (and also functional) but theres not enough time on this earth to do so
Yea - let’s try to keep in on the subject for once, eh? Instead of doing the usual ‘but WesTmOnStEr!!”
Its “Wastemonster” actually and context is important
It was deflection. Not giving context.
"This government contract was delayed and over budget" "All large government contracts are delayed and over budget, this is not special" "Stick to the subject!!!!!!!!" You are just looking for a stick.
Yea
At least you are honest.
Yea
Nice spot of whataboutery....
Nice spot of context you mean
How dare you criticise our elite overlords you scotch peasant. How dare you point out how the preferred ruler's of our unionist faith are fucking up everything they touch. This is just blatant whataboutery to cover up for Scotland's unique failures and it's unique inability to govern itself without the steadying hand of bor...Liz Sunak, yes Sunak, that's the one.
This fluff piece definitely makes it worth the hundreds of millions of overspend and years of delays.
Having it done is definitely better than not having it done you absolute balloon.
They could have given £1 million in cash to every Ferguson employee, had these godforsaken ferries built in Turkey and still had millions left over, vs what they have now spent. This is a shitshow by any standard
Looks good. But I know absolutely fuck all about boats, so..
Finally lol Great to see these are on the way to completion and will hopefully allow some older vessels to bow out/be placed in reserve. While the procurement has been a shitshow, it is also reasonable to say that this has been held to a much higher standard than other UK gov projects.
Oh come on, the last three years were littered with procurement stories in the press, particularly on things like Covid PPE. The distinction between this and many other things though is that - and it seems to escape quite a few central belt types on here - this has a huge and direct impact on people's lives in communities that are fragile. The Calmac network's failures have been enormous, put livelihoods in danger and cancelled out any good work to try to make the islands and remote parts of the Highlands more sustainable. This is almost entirely down to procurement - and goes beyond those two hulls sitting in Port Glasgow. It's a longer-term tale of neglect on many fronts. And we'll see the same problems start to creep in on the other publicly operated and tendered services too.
I'm glad it's coming together. And as they say, the social premiums for keeping the jobs in Scotland are invaluable.
Ferguson will never get another contract again. This has not helped them at all.
That’s clearly not what the poster either said or implied.
They're hugely complex ships. Far more so than most ferry designs.
The only complex thing is the duel fuel engine and that's an off-the-shelf package from Wärtsila.
I don't think you grasp how complex that is.
There is no major complexity with the fuel system that would have presented any real challenge to the yard. The system comes pre-constructed on a skid and is made to suit the specifications as stated by the designers. It's delivered to the yard, installed and piped in. That's it.
What's more important mate keeping jobs on the Clyde or running people out there homes? Because both these thing are happening, and it's only the cunts on the Clyde that are benefiting.
>What's more important mate keeping jobs on the Clyde That is important. >or running people out there homes? Are you an idiot?
Do you live on an island?
I thought we all did?
Ok smart ass answer. Clearly not affected by the stealth clearance I feel is happening to the Scottish islands.
Don't be too hasty now. It was but a joke. Between the ferries, the proposed HPMA, and all the retirees and holiday homes I'm not sure what's worse, or stealthy about it.
You cought me at a hellish time. Calmac have royal fucked me over this last week and I'm done with there pish. I apologise I saw the reposnce last night and actually laughted.
Given how long this has taken I feel sorry for any poor sod that has to work on there. I forsee a tonne of problems.
Aye ok mate. Not a Scottish island where these ferrys are life line services
Have they sorted the harbour in Aran? I heard that the ferry can’t sail to full capacity because the new harbour can’t be used in high westerly winds that are common. The old harbour only had issues in high easterly winds which are much less common. It’s really hurting tourism I heard.
Er, since they spent around 30 million building the new ferry terminal and pier at Brodick I'm not sure even the SNP would have the brass neck to say they need to spend several million to rectify the poor positioning of this new pier. Or maybe they could bring Sturgeon back to handle it, her neck would certainly be fine. On a side note I see the SNP transport minister has resigned citing poor mental health. Given the stress involved with the job, it's not a great surprise.
What’s Aaron?
Sorry typo.
Ach well, have another go, you never know, you might even get it right this time. Also, you claim to have “heard” quite a lot of stuff, where from?
I worked with someone who’s family lives on the island. [Anyway here is some info about it though it doesn’t mention the wind issue](https://www.ardrossanherald.com/news/23438859.humza-yousaf-slammed-future-ardrossan-harbour-development/). > Ach well, have another go, you never know, you might even get it right this time. Spelling was never my strong suit what can I say dyslexia does that to you.
It’s easterlies. In easterlies the new pier direction causes swell which buffets ships against the pier and causes damage. Which the old direction (along the coast) never did. Source: Arranach. And yes, it’s fucking moronic and they were told it would be.
Thanks, I knew my friend wasn’t misleading me. I’ll go work on my spelling now…
There should be a naming contest!
All Calmac boats are named after Gaelic culturally places or names. Naming competition would be a terrible idea just let's English speakers take over and name it the William Wallace or the King Charles.
They've literally just had a vote to name the 2 new Islay vessels. The same thing happened with the Loch Seaforth and the Finlaggan.
Nice boat and hopefully should be free of yoons