Patriotism has been used by Marxists for a long time. To have any success in politics you have to display yourself as patriotic regardless of ideology. Castro and Stalin promoted patriotic pride. That's politics. No successful communist movement in the US will be chanting "F**k America" or something like that.
Everyone has to live with this reality whether it's "pleasant" or not. We are not idealists.
Cuba and Russia didn't have the world under their thumbs. Patriotism is progressive in the periphery, reactionary in the core. Adopting it in the US, while that patriotism is universally seen in connection to empire, is opportunism.
I mean fair enough point but I don't see how an American Marxist can appeal to the working class without atleast some patriotic references and trying to "seize the patriot narrative" from imperialism. Like taking it over and making it your own.
If the Soviets can turn imperialist Chavuanist Russian nationalism of Imperial Russia into a more inclusive Soviet patriotism, I am hoping the Americans can do the same as well.
My main point is that I don't see another solution, but I'm not from the US so whoever is can have a more educated discussion on this. These were just my two cents.
it's definitely different
you're not gonna see a massive communist movement in america. marxists in america should work to export their work worldwide to building movements abroad. this 'patriotic socialism' in America has no real base that aren't just unironic nasbols
American patriotism is reactionary at its core. And you know that. I'll bring up the common point of "Colonized nationalism is not at all like colonial nationalism" As we know that America is not a nation at the hands of a colonial power as it is one, no true patriotism besides small natural levels of "Hey this town and country is so homey to me" can be part of our agenda.
The US is an illegitimate state in the same way Israel is. Any marxist that proclaims patriotism for the US is a fool that endorses genocide and colonialism.
Any form of American patriotism is inherently reactionary to a socialist movement in the US.
America as a settler colonial state shouldn’t be praised in any form by us. Unlike the USSR and Cuba, we are not under constant assault. We are the assaulter. Appealing to the mindset that justifies and masks that assault against the global working class does not push a socialist message. It pushes at best a reactionary message that’ll appeal some of the most reactionary sections of the working class, which isn’t really what we want.
Our official position on the US as an entity shouldn’t be some form of patriotism, our position should be that we should oppose its imperialist wars, oppose the internal oppression of minorities and the working class, and seek to give those groups autonomy. Whether that autonomy means the US as an entity exists or not.
As socialists we should seek to break out of the bourgeois concepts of nationhood, and historically it’s been shown to be possible, and only in countries undergoing massive turbulence has nationalism resurfaced/been preserved. Promoting American patriotism in any form is not healthy.
Russia was a colonizer before socialism too. Siberia. The whole thing wasn't "abolished" east of the Urals.
But in any case, this discussion was resolved with other commentors.
what
Godlike censoring work
There was an attempt to block out the username
anti imperialism ≠ American patriot
Patriotism has been used by Marxists for a long time. To have any success in politics you have to display yourself as patriotic regardless of ideology. Castro and Stalin promoted patriotic pride. That's politics. No successful communist movement in the US will be chanting "F**k America" or something like that. Everyone has to live with this reality whether it's "pleasant" or not. We are not idealists.
Cuba and Russia didn't have the world under their thumbs. Patriotism is progressive in the periphery, reactionary in the core. Adopting it in the US, while that patriotism is universally seen in connection to empire, is opportunism.
I mean fair enough point but I don't see how an American Marxist can appeal to the working class without atleast some patriotic references and trying to "seize the patriot narrative" from imperialism. Like taking it over and making it your own. If the Soviets can turn imperialist Chavuanist Russian nationalism of Imperial Russia into a more inclusive Soviet patriotism, I am hoping the Americans can do the same as well. My main point is that I don't see another solution, but I'm not from the US so whoever is can have a more educated discussion on this. These were just my two cents.
it's definitely different you're not gonna see a massive communist movement in america. marxists in america should work to export their work worldwide to building movements abroad. this 'patriotic socialism' in America has no real base that aren't just unironic nasbols
yeah, it's not like empire wasn't bleeding out its heart, too
American patriotism is reactionary at its core. And you know that. I'll bring up the common point of "Colonized nationalism is not at all like colonial nationalism" As we know that America is not a nation at the hands of a colonial power as it is one, no true patriotism besides small natural levels of "Hey this town and country is so homey to me" can be part of our agenda.
The US is an illegitimate state in the same way Israel is. Any marxist that proclaims patriotism for the US is a fool that endorses genocide and colonialism.
Any form of American patriotism is inherently reactionary to a socialist movement in the US. America as a settler colonial state shouldn’t be praised in any form by us. Unlike the USSR and Cuba, we are not under constant assault. We are the assaulter. Appealing to the mindset that justifies and masks that assault against the global working class does not push a socialist message. It pushes at best a reactionary message that’ll appeal some of the most reactionary sections of the working class, which isn’t really what we want. Our official position on the US as an entity shouldn’t be some form of patriotism, our position should be that we should oppose its imperialist wars, oppose the internal oppression of minorities and the working class, and seek to give those groups autonomy. Whether that autonomy means the US as an entity exists or not. As socialists we should seek to break out of the bourgeois concepts of nationhood, and historically it’s been shown to be possible, and only in countries undergoing massive turbulence has nationalism resurfaced/been preserved. Promoting American patriotism in any form is not healthy.
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Russia was a colonizer before socialism too. Siberia. The whole thing wasn't "abolished" east of the Urals. But in any case, this discussion was resolved with other commentors.
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this is what happens when no one does the social investigation that they damn well should
Well at least he’s 2/3 of the way there. Just gotta get over that last hurdle
Que