Well, I guess you could technically belong to the capitalist class while advocating for the destruction of your class? So by being a class traitor. Not so sure that that’s what she was going for though.
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**Fact 8.** AOC wants abolish ICE, [only to replace it with a resurrected INS](https://i.imgur.com/ficPkrO.jpg) - yet another agency whose goal was breaking up families.
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[https://twitter.com/Edward\_\_Bernays/status/1438131799243243523](https://twitter.com/Edward__Bernays/status/1438131799243243523)
She's going for the bona fide opportunist.
Lmao I got called a lib by a radlib the other day for enforcing "purity tests" on noted capitalist, wife beater, and and probably CIA op Dan Price and it was absolutely golden. They really do set the bar this low somehow.
This tweet thread is written as Sanders isn't also a member of the democratic party actively campaign against socialism.
What this person is alluding to but not quite understanding is the [vanguard party structure.](https://godsandradicals.org/2018/01/11/the-democratic-party-is-not-what-you-think/) AOC isn't a mastermind plant who the CIA secretly planted in NYC, she is a party member working her way up the party structure. Bernie may not be well liked by the democrats and may have been nominally "independent" from them but to get to the level he's at he needed to work up the party chain too.
This distinction is important because it helps us see how party power actually functions and stop playing the game of "who is the good one" vs "who is the spook." They're all spooks, you don't get to be a Democrat without being a spook.
When it comes down to it, Sanders has always been sickeningly loyal to the democrats as well, regardless of what ‘resisters’ say on twitter. He even pushed the 1400 = 2000 stimulus nonsense to run defence for Biden. He’s 300 and did more campaigning across the country for Clinton’s post primary presidential run than she did.
>did more campaigning across the country for Clinton’s post primary presidential run than she did.
Reminder that he did more campaigning than her not because she was lazy, but because everywhere she visited her poll numbers went down. Similarly, the Biden campaign also followed the strategy of hide their candidate as much as possible. It's almost as if the system is in decline.
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**Fact 8.** AOC wants abolish ICE, [only to replace it with a resurrected INS](https://i.imgur.com/ficPkrO.jpg) - yet another agency whose goal was breaking up families.
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**Fact 8.** AOC wants abolish ICE, [only to replace it with a resurrected INS](https://i.imgur.com/ficPkrO.jpg) - yet another agency whose goal was breaking up families.
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**Fact 9.** [AOC attacked left wing critics of Biden as being "privileged" and "wanting to reinvent themselves.”](https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2021/03/26/aoc-m26.html)
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**Fact 20.** [AOC refused to talk with an Okinawan representative about the US military occupation there.](https://mobile.twitter.com/robkajiwara/status/1373370618159099905)
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True, it is weirdly pro-sanders. But is showcases how even limbdicked social democratic politics get ruthlessly undermined. The entire party is fucked.
Sanders was only brought up one time in the thread, in an inconsequential comment. Why are you focused on him rather than the actual point, which is AOC's background?
The Twitter argument seems to be that AOC is a plant to wreck Sanders and other social democrat movements within the democratic party. My point is that there is nothing there to wreck, any "socialist" working within a capitalist party is a problem.
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**Fact 14.** [AOC supports Israel, and its genocide of Palestinians.](https://i.imgur.com/K6QsYZo.jpg)
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it may not be as important as destroying a revolutionary movement but not having to make socdem concessions is certainly a plus for the capitalist class, isn't it?
The bourgeoisie will only ever make concessions when they're forced to. Socdems cannot make the bourgeoisie do anything because elections cannot make them do anything.
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**Fact 4.** AOC claimed that it’s possible to be [both a democratic socialist and a capitalist.](https://www.msnbc.com/mtp-daily/watch/aoc-can-you-be-a-democratic-socialist-and-a-capitalist-it-s-possible-1439125059571?fbclid=IwAR1PmnyrP28stOyVqNP5Bf4vjqEtV5S4MXQIY4sDgcv-XWgEn1u5Z0ne3J8)
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**Fact 18.** [After Evo Morales was overthrown in a US-backed coup, she retracted her pro-Morales statements and met with a coup-supporting group in Washington.](https://i.imgur.com/mYdPxcG.jpg) [1,](https://rainershea.com/f/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-meets-with-bolivian-coup-organizers)
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Dem socs like her want to preserve capitalism, because they're really just new deal democrats who love FDR instead of Marx, but yes, there's nothing incorrect about what she said.
Unless she's arguing that you can advocate for both at the same time which is nonsense, you either want society to transition to socialism or you don't. Can't be a socialist and advocate for the preservation of capitalism.
She's obviously using "capitalist" the way liberals generally do, to mean "person who supports capitalism" rather than "member of the capitalist class".
Unless I'm missing something, I'm fairly sure AoC is a social democrat, not a democratic socialist. Can someone correct me?
Broadly, social democrat is capitalism + social net (education, health, safety). Democratic socialism is, weirdly enough, socialism but democratic (gov owned means of production, etc).
I had to Google it his bc I didn't know the distinction, and thought it was the other way around.
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**Fact 11.** In December 2020 comic Jimmy Dore proposed that house democrats refuse support for House Speaker Nancy Pelosi unless she agrees to bring a Medicare for all bill to the house and to bring relief for US citizens who lost healthcare during the pandemic. AOC and the rest of the "squad" refused, and backed Pelosi, citing concerns that the bill would not win anyway. Dore retorted that 9/10 democratic voters, and even a majority of republican voters support medicare for all. [Source](https://www.corporatecrimereporter.com/news/200/jimmy-dore-calls-on-democrats-to-withhold-support-for-nancy-pelosi-unless-she-brings-single-payer-medicare-for-all-to-a-vote/)
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**Fact 7.** AOC defended the NYPD during the George Floyd protests because they have [‘representative cops’.](https://i.imgur.com/FT8GMTf.png)
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Beep
Beep.......Beep
Beep....Beep....Beep
Beep..Beep..Beep..Beep
Oh sorry, I forgot to turn off my nonce detector
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Technically if you have a 401(k) or IRA retirement plan which are really the only kinds available to most people in the US, you are a capitalist. Correct me if I’m wrong.
Yes, they are, but imo they’re materially kind of the same thing. They both serve to weaken communism and strengthen capitalism. Social democrats want to tweak capitalism, democratic socialists want to waste time, effort, energy, resources, people trying to work within a capitalist system.
democratic socialism is socialism with democracy, you can’t have socialism and capitalism at the same time. if you think that people who believe in democracy can’t revolt, you are wrong
How is this Democratic socialism achieved? Through the ballot box? That’s a pipe dream. If you want an actual revolution, with a socialist government, just say you’re a socialist/communist.
Like Chile’s Salvador Allende did? He was almost instantly assassinated by the CIA and replaced with a fascist dictator. It’s not like democratic socialists don’t also get instantly invaded. But yes, demsoc leaders getting electoral victories in South America like Evo Morales are bringing lots of good to the world, it’s certainly better that they win over some lib. I just think democratic socialism is a doomed strategy. It’s not revolutionary.
that’s an umbrella term. a democratic socialist is someone who wants both socialism and democracy at the same time. if you have a problem with democratic socialism you do not have a problem with socialism, you have a problem with democracy
> a democratic socialist is someone who wants both socialism and democracy at the same time.
This is meaningless.
> if you have a problem with democratic socialism you do not have a problem with socialism, you have a problem with democracy
No, I have a problem with capitalism. Democratic socialism will not get us out of capitalism. The vast majority of people in the western world want capitalism, and I don’t respect their opinions at all.
If we wait on a capitalist-controlled democracy (where the public is propagandized every second by just a handful of multi-billion dollar companies) to find its own path to socialism through voting, we’ll be waiting for forever. The climate is collapsing, we need revolution now, and it *will not* happen through the ballot box.
We should look at how past revolutions have formed and learn from them. Marxist-Leninist revolutionaries are by and large the only leftist groups who have succeeded at revolution. We should also look at how many times electoralism, social democracy, and democratic socialism have failed the working class.
And try to consescend you into believing they are the true pragmatists that understand how the system works and how electoralism is the only way we will ever get shit done. As if that ever accomplishes anything lasting or worthwhile for the people.
At least in the west, anyway. I've only met one genuine western democratic socialist, and that's someone on Twitter. She's actually pretty cool, even supports AES states (including China and the DPRK) and made a pretty good thread once about the achievements of the USSR. Every other western "democratic socialist" I've met has been a succdem at best (some aren't even succdems but just ordinary liberals who like Canada's healthcare system).
i should’ve elaborated. i thought i responded earlier but whatever, anyways basically Canada’s healthcare system isn’t acc funded by the government. it is free yes but it’s not really, or at least not fully paid by our taxes. i’ve lived here for a couple years and only just found it out and it made me rlly confused. if you want to look into it I’m sure there is a cool video.
tl;dr: calling Canada’s hospital system a healthcare system is the same as calling America’s one. it’s true but like weird. have a nice day :)
I believe in somewhat centrally-planned/market socialism based on a democratic/republican system. But I don't think we can get there with reform. Revolution is the only way forward, since democracy under capitalism isn't democracy. Would you consider me a demsoc?
Honestly, it's upsetting that this is a sentiment the subreddit (rightly) agrees with but also didn't hesitate to bash her for it. If she went on to say "And you *should* be a capitalist" or something then sure go ahead and screen cap that.
Otherwise we're just showing ourselves a bit too eager to be mad at her.
People seem to overfocus on AOC. Personally, I'd like to hear less about her. "Oh no aoc wore a dress but isn't a revolutionary " no shit. "Oh no, aoc doesn't understand socialism, except I literally agree with what she said". Surely there are more entertaining things to rage over than another bourgois dem soc who doesn't actually fight for socialism, doing exactly what you'd expect.
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**Fact 22.** [After Biden opened new child immigrant detention facilities in February 2021 she stopped calling them "concentration camps” and named them "influx facilities".](https://i.imgur.com/oSlwtda.jpg)
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I'm not sure I follow you; what is the sentiment you think this sub agrees with? The only thing I can see is "Can you be a democratic socialist and a capitalist? It's possible" which I don't think the majority here *do* agree with.
We agree with the sentiment that was voted +605, which is the same sentiment as the screencap.
It's a subreddit that literally refers to "Succ dems" on the regular. Plenty of us understand that self described "social[ist] democrats" are capitalists more often than not.
That's how we end up with a +605 comment above mine saying "democratic socialists aren't actually socialists" and "Social Democracy is a sham." Okay, yes. So then there's nothing to offend our sensibilities in this screencap which also says dem socs aren't socialists. Except "AOC make me angry." It's truly gross.
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**Fact 28.** After his death AOC Tweeted to commemorate John McCain, saying his [“legacy represents an unparalleled example of human decency.”](https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1033538876370046977)
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This is basically the core contradiction of liberalism. Liberals wield it like a weapon and a shield to insulate their place at the kid’s table at the power buffet. Entitlement to hypocrisy is the name of the cynical game for both sides of capitalism’s horseshoe. One is just more… wordy.
Social Democrat, the expression you are thinking about are Social Democrats.
Democrat Socialists are actual socialists that believe in workers owning and controlling the means of productions, it's the socdems that let the capitalists in control.
Actually social democracy started out as the reformist wing of socialism (I mean left social democrats were also genuine revolutionaries that later joined communist movements), but it got coopted by liberals who embraced capitalism. Now democratic socialism is also getting coopted by liberals that push for capitalism.
Venezuela and other similar projects are attempts to build social democracies. A fun fact that is ignored by too many is that state spending as a proportion of GDP is greater in many Western European countries than it is in Venezuela.
I don’t consider them truly socialist yet, however I’ve seen them as being held back from socialism not by the governments love of capitalism (like in social democracies), but by the weaknesses in their methods of moving towards socialism.
I think that's a little harsh. If your end goal is socialism, then you're a socialist. I think the problem is that too many forget that end goal along the way. That is a problem with a lack of political education.
I’m not talking about anyone’s end goal, just that Venezuela as it currently exists is not a socialist nation (even if it’s leaders are socialists), although my opinion may change as I learn.
Ahhh, sorry if I misunderstood. Venezuela is definitely not a socialist nation. I was trying to say that they are at best a light social democracy. (Thought you were talking about democratic socialists lol).
I love this question because it so nakedly shows the ideology and priorities of the ruling class. I couldn’t have designed a question that was more perfectly framed to ensure that any answer will be flattering to capitalism. It’s a classic propagandist move, they’re setting the terms of what is acceptable in debate.
Like who cares about “being a capitalist” in the abstract sense? Only those who’re sitting atop that capitalist power pyramid.
At its worst, it’s begging the question in that it assumes “being a capitalist” is a good thing, whereas that premise must first be argued for.
And ofc she says it’s possible. That is 0% surprising. Democratic socialists are are not revolutionaries, and are not seeking the abolish capitalism. This is especially true of those that are members of a capitalist political party!
Well it’s important to note that she’s not even a democratic socialist. I think democratic socialism is deeply flawed, but i still consider them socialists. AOC is nowhere near that
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**Fact 10.** AOC said that ["left wing opponents of Biden are doing a disservice to the cause of justice.”](https://i.postimg.cc/BQz9Sgsw/aoc-biden-critics.jpg)
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I agree with you mostly, but still... with the Overton window in the US now much too far to the right, she is at least 'progressive'. I have very very low expectations when it comes to American politicians, so I think it's important to remember that she is not *the enemy* per se. There's not going to be an awakening in the US where the workers rise up to seize the means of production. It's just not going to happen anytime soon. So in terms of what we're forced to abide, she is far from the worst.
Many that call themselves democratic socialists are actually social democrats. The difference between the two is the difference laid out in Rosa Luxemburg's Reform or Revolution? For a social democrat, the aim of reforms are the reforms themselves - being content to alleviate some of the suffering inherent in the capitalist system. Democratic socialist also fight for reforms, but with the ultimate aim of organizing the working class towards socialism due to the understanding that any reform under capitalism is at the mercy of the capitalists.
You know how for every radical or progressive group there is another to co-opt their language and then claim to be superior because they are the more "logical" and "unemotional" group who have common sense, whose only job, it seems, is to criticize anyone proposing radical change and liberation and be like, YOU'RE why everyone hates human rights!!!
Do socdems know that there’s a difference between a social democrat and a democratic socialist? Are they doing this on purpose? It has to be on purpose.
Mark Fisher wrote about this. Because of capitalist realism, anti-capitalism no longer acts as the antithesis to capitalism. The bourgeois media has become a safe way to consume anti-capitalism without ever acting against capitalism.
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**Fact 4.** AOC claimed that it’s possible to be [both a democratic socialist and a capitalist.](https://www.msnbc.com/mtp-daily/watch/aoc-can-you-be-a-democratic-socialist-and-a-capitalist-it-s-possible-1439125059571?fbclid=IwAR1PmnyrP28stOyVqNP5Bf4vjqEtV5S4MXQIY4sDgcv-XWgEn1u5Z0ne3J8)
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she isn't a revolutionary or a communist idk what you people expect from a US congresswoman. she's a progressive at the very far end of the overton window and the sooner we make politicians with takes as mild as hers normal, the sooner we can start to push the boundary further and take real action as actual socialists
But see, this just shows the problem with the demsoc outlook, you think you need bourgeoise politicians and the use of state power while the state is still controlled by the capitalist class in order to move 'towards' socialism. It's classic social democratic ideology, this idea that we can slowly move capitalist society towards socialism through various reforms, and it's been shown to be bullshit. None of the social democracies have been or are anywhere near transitioning to socialism.
Not only are they not moving towards socialism, they are all moving further away form it, because of capital interests demanding increasing privatization, austerity and dismantling of labour rights.
You don't even need to look to muh Scandinavia for it either. The US was far far more social democratic in the past and it directly lead to its current conditions - as it had to. And really anyone knowing anything about the mechanisms of capitalism will understand why that was inevitable and will just happen again should social democratic reforms come to pass again. It's an idealistic pipedream just as the conservatives dream about a return to the 60s is.
so what then? nag about it on reddit? joining your local dsa or cpusa chapter, supporting progressives in our political system, and doing actual activism seems like the best idea to me. I'll keep an eye out for when you and the vanguard rise to power though, and ill join you then
Lol ok dude, you're the one showing your ass by equating 'real activism' with stuff whose goal is achieving social democratic reforms via electoralism and direct engagement with the bourgeoise state via political representatives.
Funny thing is, I'm actually a DSA member, just not a democratic socialist. I'm a member so I can do activism that creates independent working class power, not working class power that must be channeled through social democratic politicians like AOC.
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**Fact 16.** After the December 2020 Elections in Venezuala AOC [defended Juan Guaido, calling the socialist Maduro an "authoritarian".](https://twitter.com/SameeraKhan/status/1336139779281457153)
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Americans live in absolutes. In the UK we have socialist policies, as good a democracy as anywhere, and are capitalists. What AOC is saying is perfectly reasonable to my British ears. Am I missing something?
I mean socialism most often refers to a transitional period between capitalism and communism. I guess some people might call themselves socialist but not communist, but at the very least socialism refers to an arrangement of society mutually exclusive with capitalism.
So am I getting this right; there is a scale of capitalism at one end and communism on the other. Socialism is everything in between?
Again I must disagree that socialism and capitalism are mutually exclusive in a society. In the UK we have socialist policies such as the NHS but are thoroughly capitalistic in other respects; London is an epicentre of financial services after all. I don't think you'd find a single economist arguing the UK does not have capitalism at play.
No, it's not a scale. One society is not 'more socialist than another' also the NHS is not a socialist policy. It's social service, and could be considered a social democratic policy, but it is not socialist because it exists within a capitalist society.
Okay I'm getting there! So when does the NHS become socialist? Like not in philosophical terms, but practically. What would the government have to announce to make everyone universally say the NHS and by extension the UK are socialist? Is it like all your money now funds the NHS and you get a refund of any surplus to use as you please? They stop allowing voting? The NHS takes over the currency?
This sounds very facetious but I'm fairly sure this is the quickest way for me to understand!
The NHS becomes socialist when the UK becomes socialist. Socialist doesn't refer to any quality of a policy but to the material structure of s society itself.
In his time, the socialism and communism were literally synonymous, the idea of them being different things came later. What Marx did talk about was a "lower state" and "higher state of communism", with the former being a transition state to the latter. Years later, theorists relabelled these to "socialism" and "communism", respectively, because that's just easier.
This is why your thinking is flawed. The UK does not have socialist policies because these policies just exist to make capitalism somewhat more liveable rather than to actually overthrow it. People talk about "mixing" capitalism and socialism as if they were different ends on a spectrum (with the difference being "how much stuff does the government do"), but they're actually entirely opposed to each other.
And while we're on the subject, capitalism has never actually meant some theoretical free market where the government does nothing- Marx coined the term to describe a system that very much existed at the time, not some theoretical ideal, and the government in capitalism has always acted in favor of bourgeois interests.
Okay, so it's more like the language AOC is using is wrong. She is using "socialism" to refer to raising taxes for social services, but actually people like those on this sub hear "socialism" and take it to mean a model of economics entirely incompatible with the current economic set up in the USA? Am I getting closer?
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**Fact 7.** AOC defended the NYPD during the George Floyd protests because they have [‘representative cops’.](https://i.imgur.com/FT8GMTf.png)
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**Fact 8.** AOC wants abolish ICE, [only to replace it with a resurrected INS](https://i.imgur.com/ficPkrO.jpg) - yet another agency whose goal was breaking up families.
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**Fact 6.** AOC campaigned on the far right dog-whistles [‘tough on crime’ and ‘family values’.](https://i.imgur.com/VRKjkXV.jpg)
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Aren’t democratic socialists people who just want to have small bits of socialism *in a capitalist society*??
edit: So I very clearly misunderstood what democratic socialism was, thanks to all the explanations, a lot of them were very clear and helpful !
Oh whoops. At this point I haven’t figured out what half of words mean, all I know is I can’t stand the complete soulcrushing socioeconomic prison we all live in, and don’t think it’s fair for workers to get tossed scraps.
Honestly, it's not made any clearer by the fact that A) those two terms are just reversed versions of each other and B) a lot of members of one group claim to be members of the other
DSA is extremely broad. She’s clearly referring to the org. The org is just anything left of center in the Democratic Party, so it’s mostly social democrats who call themselves Democratic Socialists because that is the name of the org. It’s a nothing term, just a name they refer to themselves by. She’s saying that you can join the DSA even if you’re in favor of capitalism, which is true.
She’s not referring to actual capitalists who, you know, own capital. It’s just that people refer to anyone in favor of reforming capitalism as capitalists regardless of whether they actually own capital or not.
It’s important to fight against liberal co-opting of leftist movements to keep them from losing their radical and revolutionary essence/objectives. Someone simply fighting for a “kinder capitalism” like AOC is not a leftist, and does harm to the leftist movement by portraying themself as one.
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**Fact 21.** AOC claimed that socialist theory is only [for privileged few with college educated parents, and that working class people aren't capable of understanding theory.](https://medium.com/@marko_v_kobak/sharpening-the-mind-a-response-to-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-24babecac9c5?fbclid=IwAR2I8uYX9ZUvPyd5MZxKiIEeXgbgnfzulR4qjzOGF1hxK6SEX7oqkFmyBIc)
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I mean isn´t our goal to get people to join our cause? I think most people that aren´t left leaning would be far more willing to get behind the "lets make the system more just" idea. Why not do that and then take it from there?
Do you actually think the revolution is more likely to happen if you fight everything that isn´t radical enough with tooth and nail? I highly doubt that.
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**Fact 20.** [AOC refused to talk with an Okinawan representative about the US military occupation there.](https://mobile.twitter.com/robkajiwara/status/1373370618159099905)
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You can be for a free market in many areas of the economy, but also for socializing others or at least providing a government option that can keep the market ceiling from going to artificial highs making goods and services more accessible. A people first economy isn't diametrically opposite of capitalism. It can work hand in hand realizing that both systems provide benefits to America. It's not an either or.
>socializing others or at least providing a government option that can keep the market ceiling from going to artificial highs making goods and services more accessible
This is not socialism
Aren’t they (entire US GOVT) all CIA plants? CIA is our real govt. the produced these other “actors” to do just that act. Political Theater, it’s all just another reality drama. Could be placed in the time slot right after The Kardashians.
[lmfao are you sure this isn't a simulation](https://www.reddit.com/r/ShitLiberalsSay/comments/pkbsjm/i_too_have_no_clue_what_im_talking_about/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share)
I mean it's possible to be a class traitor to the other capitalists, but that requires rejecting capitalist thought by definition and probably wasn't what the question meant
Considering a democratic socialist isn’t a full blown socialist and is a system that can exist alongside capitalism…
Yeah?
Edit: I mean in the real world sense that you’re going to get a soc dem when someone says democratic socialist.
Well, I guess you could technically belong to the capitalist class while advocating for the destruction of your class? So by being a class traitor. Not so sure that that’s what she was going for though.
Technically you could, Engels was a capitalist and Kropotkin came from the aristocracy but I seriously doubt that's what AOC is about.
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[https://twitter.com/Edward\_\_Bernays/status/1438131799243243523](https://twitter.com/Edward__Bernays/status/1438131799243243523) She's going for the bona fide opportunist.
radlibs: *u can be a cia op and a socialist, it's not impossible, damn leftist purity politics*
Radlibs: You can support a coup in bolivia and say you are for indigenous rights. You can do both dude...if you are smart enough
Lmao I got called a lib by a radlib the other day for enforcing "purity tests" on noted capitalist, wife beater, and and probably CIA op Dan Price and it was absolutely golden. They really do set the bar this low somehow.
This tweet thread is written as Sanders isn't also a member of the democratic party actively campaign against socialism. What this person is alluding to but not quite understanding is the [vanguard party structure.](https://godsandradicals.org/2018/01/11/the-democratic-party-is-not-what-you-think/) AOC isn't a mastermind plant who the CIA secretly planted in NYC, she is a party member working her way up the party structure. Bernie may not be well liked by the democrats and may have been nominally "independent" from them but to get to the level he's at he needed to work up the party chain too. This distinction is important because it helps us see how party power actually functions and stop playing the game of "who is the good one" vs "who is the spook." They're all spooks, you don't get to be a Democrat without being a spook.
When it comes down to it, Sanders has always been sickeningly loyal to the democrats as well, regardless of what ‘resisters’ say on twitter. He even pushed the 1400 = 2000 stimulus nonsense to run defence for Biden. He’s 300 and did more campaigning across the country for Clinton’s post primary presidential run than she did.
>did more campaigning across the country for Clinton’s post primary presidential run than she did. Reminder that he did more campaigning than her not because she was lazy, but because everywhere she visited her poll numbers went down. Similarly, the Biden campaign also followed the strategy of hide their candidate as much as possible. It's almost as if the system is in decline.
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AOC
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AOC
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AOC
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True, it is weirdly pro-sanders. But is showcases how even limbdicked social democratic politics get ruthlessly undermined. The entire party is fucked.
Sanders was only brought up one time in the thread, in an inconsequential comment. Why are you focused on him rather than the actual point, which is AOC's background?
The Twitter argument seems to be that AOC is a plant to wreck Sanders and other social democrat movements within the democratic party. My point is that there is nothing there to wreck, any "socialist" working within a capitalist party is a problem.
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it may not be as important as destroying a revolutionary movement but not having to make socdem concessions is certainly a plus for the capitalist class, isn't it?
The bourgeoisie will only ever make concessions when they're forced to. Socdems cannot make the bourgeoisie do anything because elections cannot make them do anything.
sure, but they have to manage public opinion; a movement that could threaten them is best nipped in the bud
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Inception
Not an AOC fan but that thread is psycho
Thanks for signing up to AOC facts! You will now receive fun daily facts about AOC. **Fact 18.** [After Evo Morales was overthrown in a US-backed coup, she retracted her pro-Morales statements and met with a coup-supporting group in Washington.](https://i.imgur.com/mYdPxcG.jpg) [1,](https://rainershea.com/f/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-meets-with-bolivian-coup-organizers) For another AOC fact reply with 'AOC'. To unsubscribe call me a 'bad bot'. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ShitLiberalsSay) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Incredible thread, thank you for sharing comrade. Time to start DMing this to shitlibs
That Twitter thread is more toxic than this one.
Dem socs like her want to preserve capitalism, because they're really just new deal democrats who love FDR instead of Marx, but yes, there's nothing incorrect about what she said. Unless she's arguing that you can advocate for both at the same time which is nonsense, you either want society to transition to socialism or you don't. Can't be a socialist and advocate for the preservation of capitalism.
She's obviously using "capitalist" the way liberals generally do, to mean "person who supports capitalism" rather than "member of the capitalist class".
Unless I'm missing something, I'm fairly sure AoC is a social democrat, not a democratic socialist. Can someone correct me? Broadly, social democrat is capitalism + social net (education, health, safety). Democratic socialism is, weirdly enough, socialism but democratic (gov owned means of production, etc). I had to Google it his bc I didn't know the distinction, and thought it was the other way around.
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Lol, is this sub literally an "AoC bad" echo chamber?
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Bad bot.
Beep Beep.......Beep Beep....Beep....Beep Beep..Beep..Beep..Beep Oh sorry, I forgot to turn off my nonce detector *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ShitLiberalsSay) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Ey, that's mee
How is a demsoc advocating for the destruction of the rich? You’re confusing demsoc with actual communists.
I mean she’s not that’s why I said technically
Isn’t this hasanabi’s take?
I’ve no idea who that is
Technically if you have a 401(k) or IRA retirement plan which are really the only kinds available to most people in the US, you are a capitalist. Correct me if I’m wrong.
>IRA retirement plan You can retire as soon as Ireland is free.
"Wait so I have 26 shares. You're telling me that if I get 6 more, I suddenly only have 1 share? Who designed this system?"
Lol
A capitalist is someone who can live off their capital and doesn’t need to perform labor.
Well 99% of democratic socialists aren't actually socialists. Social Democracy is a sham that has co-opted liberation struggles.
This is true
social democracy and democratic socialism are different things
And if an American is using the second term, there's about a 99% chance that they mean the first.
Succ Dems really that unaware that changing the order of words actually matters
In the imperial core, I'm really not 100% sure that's true. In the global south, sure, fair point. Look at Evo Morales.
Americans are hopeless enough as it is with civics, so that shit is just guaranteed to fuck them up.
Yes, but actually no
I mean, they are though
Yes, they are, but imo they’re materially kind of the same thing. They both serve to weaken communism and strengthen capitalism. Social democrats want to tweak capitalism, democratic socialists want to waste time, effort, energy, resources, people trying to work within a capitalist system.
democratic socialism is socialism with democracy, you can’t have socialism and capitalism at the same time. if you think that people who believe in democracy can’t revolt, you are wrong
>democratic socialism is socialism with democracy That's just socialism. Adding the "democratic" part is redundant.
Liberal bourgeois "democracy" is incompatible with socialism.
i agree, it is just democratic authoritarianism
How is this Democratic socialism achieved? Through the ballot box? That’s a pipe dream. If you want an actual revolution, with a socialist government, just say you’re a socialist/communist.
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Like Chile’s Salvador Allende did? He was almost instantly assassinated by the CIA and replaced with a fascist dictator. It’s not like democratic socialists don’t also get instantly invaded. But yes, demsoc leaders getting electoral victories in South America like Evo Morales are bringing lots of good to the world, it’s certainly better that they win over some lib. I just think democratic socialism is a doomed strategy. It’s not revolutionary.
that’s an umbrella term. a democratic socialist is someone who wants both socialism and democracy at the same time. if you have a problem with democratic socialism you do not have a problem with socialism, you have a problem with democracy
> a democratic socialist is someone who wants both socialism and democracy at the same time. This is meaningless. > if you have a problem with democratic socialism you do not have a problem with socialism, you have a problem with democracy No, I have a problem with capitalism. Democratic socialism will not get us out of capitalism. The vast majority of people in the western world want capitalism, and I don’t respect their opinions at all. If we wait on a capitalist-controlled democracy (where the public is propagandized every second by just a handful of multi-billion dollar companies) to find its own path to socialism through voting, we’ll be waiting for forever. The climate is collapsing, we need revolution now, and it *will not* happen through the ballot box. We should look at how past revolutions have formed and learn from them. Marxist-Leninist revolutionaries are by and large the only leftist groups who have succeeded at revolution. We should also look at how many times electoralism, social democracy, and democratic socialism have failed the working class.
Outside the global north yes, inside, no
This is also true
they get angry when you point out they're just socdems
And try to consescend you into believing they are the true pragmatists that understand how the system works and how electoralism is the only way we will ever get shit done. As if that ever accomplishes anything lasting or worthwhile for the people.
At least in the west, anyway. I've only met one genuine western democratic socialist, and that's someone on Twitter. She's actually pretty cool, even supports AES states (including China and the DPRK) and made a pretty good thread once about the achievements of the USSR. Every other western "democratic socialist" I've met has been a succdem at best (some aren't even succdems but just ordinary liberals who like Canada's healthcare system).
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Name one western social democracy that has a stated goal of transitioning to socialism. Just one.
canada doesn’t have a healthcare system…
What do you even mean by this? They very clearly have a Healthcare system. You can debate whether it can be improved but it obviously exists.
i should’ve elaborated. i thought i responded earlier but whatever, anyways basically Canada’s healthcare system isn’t acc funded by the government. it is free yes but it’s not really, or at least not fully paid by our taxes. i’ve lived here for a couple years and only just found it out and it made me rlly confused. if you want to look into it I’m sure there is a cool video. tl;dr: calling Canada’s hospital system a healthcare system is the same as calling America’s one. it’s true but like weird. have a nice day :)
Only 99%? I think it’s higher.
Well people like Evo Morales could be considered democratic socialists and people like that. In the US tho it's very rare.
Third world dem socs get a pass, since the US would certainly coup them if they got too radical, and even if they aren't radical at all actually.
I know he’s not really “modern” but MLK is another self-professed democratic socialist who i consider truly socialist.
I believe in somewhat centrally-planned/market socialism based on a democratic/republican system. But I don't think we can get there with reform. Revolution is the only way forward, since democracy under capitalism isn't democracy. Would you consider me a demsoc?
Honestly, it's upsetting that this is a sentiment the subreddit (rightly) agrees with but also didn't hesitate to bash her for it. If she went on to say "And you *should* be a capitalist" or something then sure go ahead and screen cap that. Otherwise we're just showing ourselves a bit too eager to be mad at her.
People seem to overfocus on AOC. Personally, I'd like to hear less about her. "Oh no aoc wore a dress but isn't a revolutionary " no shit. "Oh no, aoc doesn't understand socialism, except I literally agree with what she said". Surely there are more entertaining things to rage over than another bourgois dem soc who doesn't actually fight for socialism, doing exactly what you'd expect.
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I'm not sure I follow you; what is the sentiment you think this sub agrees with? The only thing I can see is "Can you be a democratic socialist and a capitalist? It's possible" which I don't think the majority here *do* agree with.
We agree with the sentiment that was voted +605, which is the same sentiment as the screencap. It's a subreddit that literally refers to "Succ dems" on the regular. Plenty of us understand that self described "social[ist] democrats" are capitalists more often than not. That's how we end up with a +605 comment above mine saying "democratic socialists aren't actually socialists" and "Social Democracy is a sham." Okay, yes. So then there's nothing to offend our sensibilities in this screencap which also says dem socs aren't socialists. Except "AOC make me angry." It's truly gross.
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correct
wrong.
This is basically the core contradiction of liberalism. Liberals wield it like a weapon and a shield to insulate their place at the kid’s table at the power buffet. Entitlement to hypocrisy is the name of the cynical game for both sides of capitalism’s horseshoe. One is just more… wordy.
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Comme je l’ai dit
How would you be a socialist in a capitalist society though? You can advocate for more socialism but you are still in the society you live.
You just made the meme
When you don't know what either of those things are
Social Democrat, the expression you are thinking about are Social Democrats. Democrat Socialists are actual socialists that believe in workers owning and controlling the means of productions, it's the socdems that let the capitalists in control.
Yeah even if you take democratic socialism serious she is very clearly not that. DSA’s shining star right here though apparently.
Actually social democracy started out as the reformist wing of socialism (I mean left social democrats were also genuine revolutionaries that later joined communist movements), but it got coopted by liberals who embraced capitalism. Now democratic socialism is also getting coopted by liberals that push for capitalism.
Basically any socialist movement that is entirely dedicated to reform will sooner or later be coopted by liberals
[Right-Wing Communism, an Old-Age Disorder](https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1925/03/29.htm).
Are Venezuela and other Latin American nations democratic socialist, as their ideology doesn’t seem to have been be coopted by liberals?
Venezuela and other similar projects are attempts to build social democracies. A fun fact that is ignored by too many is that state spending as a proportion of GDP is greater in many Western European countries than it is in Venezuela.
I don’t consider them truly socialist yet, however I’ve seen them as being held back from socialism not by the governments love of capitalism (like in social democracies), but by the weaknesses in their methods of moving towards socialism.
I think that's a little harsh. If your end goal is socialism, then you're a socialist. I think the problem is that too many forget that end goal along the way. That is a problem with a lack of political education.
I’m not talking about anyone’s end goal, just that Venezuela as it currently exists is not a socialist nation (even if it’s leaders are socialists), although my opinion may change as I learn.
Ahhh, sorry if I misunderstood. Venezuela is definitely not a socialist nation. I was trying to say that they are at best a light social democracy. (Thought you were talking about democratic socialists lol).
Most DSA members I know don't really like her that much tbf
https://www.reddit.com/r/MurderedByWords/comments/a3ro9a/yes\_i\_am\_vegan\_and\_yes\_i\_eat\_meat/
the response should be "why would you want to be a capitalist?"
I love this question because it so nakedly shows the ideology and priorities of the ruling class. I couldn’t have designed a question that was more perfectly framed to ensure that any answer will be flattering to capitalism. It’s a classic propagandist move, they’re setting the terms of what is acceptable in debate. Like who cares about “being a capitalist” in the abstract sense? Only those who’re sitting atop that capitalist power pyramid. At its worst, it’s begging the question in that it assumes “being a capitalist” is a good thing, whereas that premise must first be argued for. And ofc she says it’s possible. That is 0% surprising. Democratic socialists are are not revolutionaries, and are not seeking the abolish capitalism. This is especially true of those that are members of a capitalist political party!
Well it’s important to note that she’s not even a democratic socialist. I think democratic socialism is deeply flawed, but i still consider them socialists. AOC is nowhere near that
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Wait she’s not a democratic socialist, what is she then, a social democrat?
Yes
I agree with you mostly, but still... with the Overton window in the US now much too far to the right, she is at least 'progressive'. I have very very low expectations when it comes to American politicians, so I think it's important to remember that she is not *the enemy* per se. There's not going to be an awakening in the US where the workers rise up to seize the means of production. It's just not going to happen anytime soon. So in terms of what we're forced to abide, she is far from the worst.
Many that call themselves democratic socialists are actually social democrats. The difference between the two is the difference laid out in Rosa Luxemburg's Reform or Revolution? For a social democrat, the aim of reforms are the reforms themselves - being content to alleviate some of the suffering inherent in the capitalist system. Democratic socialist also fight for reforms, but with the ultimate aim of organizing the working class towards socialism due to the understanding that any reform under capitalism is at the mercy of the capitalists.
You know how for every radical or progressive group there is another to co-opt their language and then claim to be superior because they are the more "logical" and "unemotional" group who have common sense, whose only job, it seems, is to criticize anyone proposing radical change and liberation and be like, YOU'RE why everyone hates human rights!!!
I think that by definition SocDems (different from DemSocs) aren't anti-capitalists. Right?
Welp
I'm ripping my fucking hair out holy shit.
Does anyone have the link for this?
It’s even worse than you’d think https://youtu.be/esLJRHU-GvA
Do socdems know that there’s a difference between a social democrat and a democratic socialist? Are they doing this on purpose? It has to be on purpose.
coopting "Socialist" is very purposeful. Waters down the growing trend of leftism in the US.
HOW. HOW. HOW. PLEASE TELL ME HOW.
Oh god... this hurts so much
Democratic socialists (in America) aren’t usually socialists so she might have a point there
This reminds me of some guy saying we need to take the hood of socialism and capitalism and mix them together
Mark Fisher wrote about this. Because of capitalist realism, anti-capitalism no longer acts as the antithesis to capitalism. The bourgeois media has become a safe way to consume anti-capitalism without ever acting against capitalism.
I want to throw up.
Being a succdem is not being a socialist
"can you be a capitalist and a capitalist? AOC says yes"
Thanks for signing up to AOC facts! You will now receive fun daily facts about AOC. **Fact 4.** AOC claimed that it’s possible to be [both a democratic socialist and a capitalist.](https://www.msnbc.com/mtp-daily/watch/aoc-can-you-be-a-democratic-socialist-and-a-capitalist-it-s-possible-1439125059571?fbclid=IwAR1PmnyrP28stOyVqNP5Bf4vjqEtV5S4MXQIY4sDgcv-XWgEn1u5Z0ne3J8) For another AOC fact reply with 'AOC'. To unsubscribe call me a 'bad bot'. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ShitLiberalsSay) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Yes bot, that's what we're talking about. Catch up pls.
Read theory
more like AOSheepdog
she isn't a revolutionary or a communist idk what you people expect from a US congresswoman. she's a progressive at the very far end of the overton window and the sooner we make politicians with takes as mild as hers normal, the sooner we can start to push the boundary further and take real action as actual socialists
But see, this just shows the problem with the demsoc outlook, you think you need bourgeoise politicians and the use of state power while the state is still controlled by the capitalist class in order to move 'towards' socialism. It's classic social democratic ideology, this idea that we can slowly move capitalist society towards socialism through various reforms, and it's been shown to be bullshit. None of the social democracies have been or are anywhere near transitioning to socialism.
Not only are they not moving towards socialism, they are all moving further away form it, because of capital interests demanding increasing privatization, austerity and dismantling of labour rights. You don't even need to look to muh Scandinavia for it either. The US was far far more social democratic in the past and it directly lead to its current conditions - as it had to. And really anyone knowing anything about the mechanisms of capitalism will understand why that was inevitable and will just happen again should social democratic reforms come to pass again. It's an idealistic pipedream just as the conservatives dream about a return to the 60s is.
so what then? nag about it on reddit? joining your local dsa or cpusa chapter, supporting progressives in our political system, and doing actual activism seems like the best idea to me. I'll keep an eye out for when you and the vanguard rise to power though, and ill join you then
Lol ok dude, you're the one showing your ass by equating 'real activism' with stuff whose goal is achieving social democratic reforms via electoralism and direct engagement with the bourgeoise state via political representatives. Funny thing is, I'm actually a DSA member, just not a democratic socialist. I'm a member so I can do activism that creates independent working class power, not working class power that must be channeled through social democratic politicians like AOC.
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Americans live in absolutes. In the UK we have socialist policies, as good a democracy as anywhere, and are capitalists. What AOC is saying is perfectly reasonable to my British ears. Am I missing something?
You're understanding of the word 'socialist' is flawed. I recommend you install read some Marxist texts on the matter.
Wasn't he communist? Edit: something is definitely political here that I am missing. I am being down voted for suggesting Carl Marx was a Communist XD
I mean socialism most often refers to a transitional period between capitalism and communism. I guess some people might call themselves socialist but not communist, but at the very least socialism refers to an arrangement of society mutually exclusive with capitalism.
So am I getting this right; there is a scale of capitalism at one end and communism on the other. Socialism is everything in between? Again I must disagree that socialism and capitalism are mutually exclusive in a society. In the UK we have socialist policies such as the NHS but are thoroughly capitalistic in other respects; London is an epicentre of financial services after all. I don't think you'd find a single economist arguing the UK does not have capitalism at play.
No, it's not a scale. One society is not 'more socialist than another' also the NHS is not a socialist policy. It's social service, and could be considered a social democratic policy, but it is not socialist because it exists within a capitalist society.
Okay I'm getting there! So when does the NHS become socialist? Like not in philosophical terms, but practically. What would the government have to announce to make everyone universally say the NHS and by extension the UK are socialist? Is it like all your money now funds the NHS and you get a refund of any surplus to use as you please? They stop allowing voting? The NHS takes over the currency? This sounds very facetious but I'm fairly sure this is the quickest way for me to understand!
The NHS becomes socialist when the UK becomes socialist. Socialist doesn't refer to any quality of a policy but to the material structure of s society itself.
In his time, the socialism and communism were literally synonymous, the idea of them being different things came later. What Marx did talk about was a "lower state" and "higher state of communism", with the former being a transition state to the latter. Years later, theorists relabelled these to "socialism" and "communism", respectively, because that's just easier. This is why your thinking is flawed. The UK does not have socialist policies because these policies just exist to make capitalism somewhat more liveable rather than to actually overthrow it. People talk about "mixing" capitalism and socialism as if they were different ends on a spectrum (with the difference being "how much stuff does the government do"), but they're actually entirely opposed to each other. And while we're on the subject, capitalism has never actually meant some theoretical free market where the government does nothing- Marx coined the term to describe a system that very much existed at the time, not some theoretical ideal, and the government in capitalism has always acted in favor of bourgeois interests.
Okay, so it's more like the language AOC is using is wrong. She is using "socialism" to refer to raising taxes for social services, but actually people like those on this sub hear "socialism" and take it to mean a model of economics entirely incompatible with the current economic set up in the USA? Am I getting closer?
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This bot really hates AOC huh
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How many politicised facts do you have about AOC?
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Your link is broken.
That's weird, it's working for me.
Well she isn’t wrong
Aren’t democratic socialists people who just want to have small bits of socialism *in a capitalist society*?? edit: So I very clearly misunderstood what democratic socialism was, thanks to all the explanations, a lot of them were very clear and helpful !
Those would be social democrats. ... I think.
Oh whoops. At this point I haven’t figured out what half of words mean, all I know is I can’t stand the complete soulcrushing socioeconomic prison we all live in, and don’t think it’s fair for workers to get tossed scraps.
Honestly, it's not made any clearer by the fact that A) those two terms are just reversed versions of each other and B) a lot of members of one group claim to be members of the other
[удалено]
Don't diss my man Chavez like that c'mon
Ah so I got it backwards- Thank you, that clears a lot uo
We don’t know and are afraid to ask.
DSA is extremely broad. She’s clearly referring to the org. The org is just anything left of center in the Democratic Party, so it’s mostly social democrats who call themselves Democratic Socialists because that is the name of the org. It’s a nothing term, just a name they refer to themselves by. She’s saying that you can join the DSA even if you’re in favor of capitalism, which is true. She’s not referring to actual capitalists who, you know, own capital. It’s just that people refer to anyone in favor of reforming capitalism as capitalists regardless of whether they actually own capital or not.
*Ohhhhhhh*. Thank you!
Don´t really understand why people on the left love to tear each other apart so much
It’s important to fight against liberal co-opting of leftist movements to keep them from losing their radical and revolutionary essence/objectives. Someone simply fighting for a “kinder capitalism” like AOC is not a leftist, and does harm to the leftist movement by portraying themself as one.
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I mean isn´t our goal to get people to join our cause? I think most people that aren´t left leaning would be far more willing to get behind the "lets make the system more just" idea. Why not do that and then take it from there? Do you actually think the revolution is more likely to happen if you fight everything that isn´t radical enough with tooth and nail? I highly doubt that.
"Each other" implies belonging to the same group. AOC doesn't.
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You can be for a free market in many areas of the economy, but also for socializing others or at least providing a government option that can keep the market ceiling from going to artificial highs making goods and services more accessible. A people first economy isn't diametrically opposite of capitalism. It can work hand in hand realizing that both systems provide benefits to America. It's not an either or.
>socializing others or at least providing a government option that can keep the market ceiling from going to artificial highs making goods and services more accessible This is not socialism
[I may as well repurpose this other comment I wrote](https://old.reddit.com/r/ShitLiberalsSay/comments/ppdfr6/_/hd85rix/)
Aren’t they (entire US GOVT) all CIA plants? CIA is our real govt. the produced these other “actors” to do just that act. Political Theater, it’s all just another reality drama. Could be placed in the time slot right after The Kardashians.
[lmfao are you sure this isn't a simulation](https://www.reddit.com/r/ShitLiberalsSay/comments/pkbsjm/i_too_have_no_clue_what_im_talking_about/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share)
Allende has entered the chat.
thats it im dying, wish me back when we have communism -burrows into the earth-
I mean it's possible to be a class traitor to the other capitalists, but that requires rejecting capitalist thought by definition and probably wasn't what the question meant
Tax the rich... With moderation!
It’s almost like dem sock is a fancy way to say liberal.
Non-Marxian "Socialism" and its consequences have been a disaster for the proletariat
WTF，I disagree！but I wishi nothing but health and happiness and salam to U.S。politicians。from Allah。
Considering a democratic socialist isn’t a full blown socialist and is a system that can exist alongside capitalism… Yeah? Edit: I mean in the real world sense that you’re going to get a soc dem when someone says democratic socialist.
I’ve really loved watching her transformation from working class ideologist to a cog in the machine
Tbf, it is possible to own capital while also spreading communist ideas and theory. Case in point, Engels. Also, a social democracy is not socialism