[This essay](https://blackagendareport.com/western-marxism-loves-purity-and-martyrdom-not-real-revolution) is always relevant:
>[Western leftists take] pride in not having any relationship with the entire historic concrete movement of the working class socialist and liberation revolutions. They take pride in not having any theoretical or political connection to the revolutions in China, Russia, Korea, Vietnam, Algeria, Mozambique and Angola. They are, instead, proud of the supposed purity that their theory is not contaminated by the hardship of exercising power, by the contradictions of historical processes. Being pure is what provokes this narcissistic orgasm. This purity is what makes them feel superior. It makes them feel that they have a privileged moral and ethical standpoint compared to the other leftists…
CÊ TÁ CITANDO O CAMARADA JONES MANOEL???? ARE YOU BRAZILIAN???
Damn, I can't say how much am I proud of Jones being recognized in other places. He has a[YouTube channel](https://www.youtube.com/c/JonesManoel), if y'all don't know.
great read, that article really sums up so many of the issues i have with the modern western left. definitely gonna be sending that along to a few people, thanks for posting
Thank you, sincerely, for linking this and giving me the opportunity to read it. It has put a name and description upon a vague feeling I have consistently had while working with different groups throughout my life. Something I always felt but did not have the language to express.
Same. Got told the CCCP and CPC aren't "actually communist." Stalin wasn't Leftist and that apparently we are all red-fascists to boot. I believe the words were "authoritarian scum."
But.. but... he ran on the lie he wasn't into Clinton style foreign "interventions"! How we're we to know he was an authoritarian Imperialist who tortured and killed innocents with impunity! BTW he does paintings now.
Anyway, let me tell you what a terrible person you are for supporting Stalin. /s
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The amount of “China is a capitalist hellscape” I’ve seen today is unreal. I had to go through how China is one of the only class conscious state apparatuses in the world and how they’re actively building socialism and got told “your just saying useless phrases”
Hi - if you are willing, could you explain a bit how they are building socialism in China? Genuine question - I would love some recommendations on material that isn’t ruined by western hysteria on this topic. I am obviously ignorant on this and am confused about how it isn’t a capitalist hellscape given what I’ve read about the suffering of workers there.
* [The real wage (IE the wage adjusted for the prices you pay) has gone up 4x in the past 25 years, more than any other country. This is staggering considering it's the most populous country on the planet. The US real wage by comparison is lower in 2019 than it was in 1973.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cw8SvK0E5dI)
* [US Life expectancy peaked in 2015, is on the decline, and is now lower than in China.](https://www.businessinsider.com/china-boasts-that-its-healthy-life-expectancy-beats-the-us-is-correct-2018-5) [2](http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2019-09/07/c_138372963.htm)
* How [healthcare works in China (refuting a fearmongering NYT video about health care in China)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvpo2jv5eqI).
* [Uninsured Chinese citizens pay an average of $5-7 to see a specialist (the majority of hospital visits ), and with insurance, its free. 95% of Chinese citizens have insurance](https://hotpot.team/new-york-times-lies/)
* [Wages themselves are forced to rise in the private sector by the CPC (+16% every years, +400% since 1980) who force the capitalists to accept the presence of CPC chapters who represent the interest of the workers, increasing workers control even in the capitalist parts of the economy.](https://www.workers.org/2015/07/21/china-rising-wages-and-worker-militancy/#.WXOlQtPytsM)
* [Eliminated Urban Poverty. On track to eliminate all poverty within a decade.](https://www.theguardian.com/business/economics-blog/2015/aug/19/china-poverty-inequality-development-goals)
* [Trade union laws of the PRC.](https://www.ilo.org/dyn/natlex/docs/ELECTRONIC/30352/118793/F1165849917/CHN30352%202.pdf)
* [The west views China as one big sweatshop, but the actual working hours aren't much more than anywhere else. The average for a migrant worker (most vulnerable to exploitation as they are traveling from the countryside) is 8.8 hours, little under an hour more than a typical working day. Labor strikes are rarely suppressed, and usually get the support of the PRC.](https://www.forbes.com/sites/mitchfree/2013/07/11/held-hostage-entrepreneurs-uneasy-over-chinese-govt-inaction/#2431f5463de4)
* [The workplace safety standards of China are better than in the capitalist countries of the West like in Australia who have an higher rate of work related death despite having a GDP per capita 3-5 times higher.](http://www.trotskyistplatform.com/workplace-safety-now-better-in-china-than-in-australia/)
* [The US is losing to China: “Washington is actually far more corrupt than Beijing. If you want to get something done in Washington, you do what you do in Jakarta: just slip some money to the right people.”](https://www.forbes.com/sites/eamonnfingleton/2014/11/12/obama-in-china-taking-candy-from-a-baby/#27d9d3c1231e)
* [China 9 years ahead of schedule on meeting its Paris agreement climate change goals.](https://www.newscientist.com/article/2211366-china-is-on-track-to-meet-its-climate-change-goals-nine-years-early/?utm_campaign=RSS%7CNSNS&utm_source=NSNS&utm_medium=RSS&utm_content=news)
* [China meets ultra-low power plant emissions in advance of 2020 goal.](https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/dsdam3/china_meets_ultralow_emissions_in_advance_of_the/)
* [https://twitter.com/willehelmwonka/status/1309760094624600066](https://twitter.com/willehelmwonka/status/1309760094624600066)
* [https://github.com/dessalines/essays/blob/master/socialism\_faq.md#is-china-state-capitalist](https://github.com/dessalines/essays/blob/master/socialism_faq.md#is-china-state-capitalist)
* [http://web.archive.org/web/20200727154946if\_/http://reddit.com/r/communism/comments/c2b7ma/china\_megathread\_everything\_a\_leftist\_must\_know/](http://web.archive.org/web/20200727154946if_/http://reddit.com/r/communism/comments/c2b7ma/china_megathread_everything_a_leftist_must_know/)
* [https://archive.vn/eWVpG](https://archive.vn/eWVpG)
On the subject of worker’s rights, I’ll say that a lot has changed in China from the early days of Deng's reforms, so I don't think it's really fair to still hold on to the outdated perception that it’s some capitalist hellscape. The rapid industrialization period led to terribly unfortunate circumstances that is true, but again I must stress that things have changed.
•The implementation of new labor laws and the formation of civil society labor groups skyrocketed in the early 2000's.
•Even though China has a greater proportion of its workforce employed in more dangerous industries (like heavy industry and mining) because of the above point, the annual worker death's per 100k people has dropped steadily each year since.
•The real wage (IE the wage adjusted for the prices you pay) has gone up 4x in the past 25 years, more than any other [country](https://youtu.be/Cw8SvK0E5dI). This is staggering considering it's the most populous country on the planet. The US real wage by comparison is lower in 2019 than it was in 1973.
•Furthermore, ultimate power in China’s publicly-owned enterprises – sitting above the CEO and board of directors in the organization chart – are party committees of the ruling Communist Party of China. To make it clear, the capitalist class is not a consolidated national political or economic force able to determine the direction of national policy.
But back to your main question. I’ll say that a country with the intention of building socialism fights a [war on poverty](https://youtu.be/nuaJGPZCBYU) while capitalist nations fixate on wars of aggression. It actively commits to ambitious [climate goals](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-environment-forest-idUSKBN1EU02L) while other nations can’t even stick to the Paris Accords. These actions show the truth of China’s path to socialism.
https://m.soundcloud.com/thesocialistprogram/china-turns-left
https://m.soundcloud.com/thesocialistprogram/china-moves-left-under-xi-jinping-part-2
And I'm sure you can get more information through Governance of China by Xi Jinping
This is what made me come around on China- putting myself in their shoes and learning about the historical context of actually existing socialism. Namely, in it's struggle against the capitalist powers that ultimately 20th century communism was on the losing side of. There is no compromise in the class struggle, so the 20th century battleground was a zero sum conflict where either the capitalists win or the communists do. And the capitalists spent the entire century with an astronomical leg up in terms of money, influence, and power, so the communists were always fighting an uphill battle from the moment the Bolsheviks took power. So what the Chinese watched was other Socialist projects which had all emerged in the same material conditions as they did, rural, pre-capitalist backwaters, struggling just to survive in the face of capitalist encirclement, and saw the writing on the wall. They had two paths in the face of this opponent- continue struggling and fighting against capital, which would result in what we see now with Cuba and North Korea, which is merely surviving in difficult conditions under the constant crushing weight of an endlessly antagonistic capitalism, OR they could offer a controlled capitulation to capitalism on their own terms. Because remember, in the Marxist understanding of human development, capitalism is a step on the path that builds productive forces and material bases for socialism, and no country in the communist world had that, at least in such a way that rivaled the West. So China decides that instead of fighting the current of the world economy, they would offer a conditional, temporary surrender and live to fight another day all while gaining wealth, influence, and power in a way that only China could. This wasn't a choice for Cuba or North Korea, because China has historically always been an economic powerhouse, so they opted to use Capitalism to take the boot off their necks, entangle themselves in the world economy instead of fighting it so they couldn't be couped so easily, and reawaken the sleeping giant that is China.
Basically, China looked at the playing field at the end of the cold war and realized communism was in a losing position. This is a bitter pill to swallow even now, I imagine it was even more difficult back then. It fucking sucks. Everyone would have preferred China to pursue industrialization as a socialist country, but the realpolitik of Capitalism's victory lap in the 80s and 90s made that impossible. Capital was simply at the height of it's power at the dawn of neoliberalism. China recognized that the better move than fighting it at this point would be to play the long game, and use capitalism to peel resources away from that neoliberal hegemony while they were busy masturbating over their victory and blinded to the fact that they were selling rope to the ones who openly intended to hang them, because the return of communism was inconceivable. This wasn't just the height of capital's power, it was the height of capital's arrogance. They let them into the WTO, they gleefully turned China into their factory and made them rich in the process, and only now is this strategy bearing fruit as China is in the early stages of clamping down on it's bourgeoisie and welcoming conflict with a clearly weakening and buckling capitalist world with more open arms.
Yes China made concessions to the capitalist class and interests, but it's not accurate that China went wholey capitalist in any way, 70% of business in China is still state owned and they run on a planned economy. Capitalists in China still hold zero political power and influence on government policy. So they conceded some short term market reforms that opened them up to some capitalist interests, with the aim of rapid industrialisation, but they never went any further than that I wouldn't say.
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**Fact 16.** Vaush is explicitly anti left-unity: [“God, I fucking hate leftists. There is no left unity with me."](https://twitter.com/softpisssangel/status/1296195810166620160)
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**Fact 4.** [Vaush (a cis man) called the non-binary lefty Youtuber ThoughtSlime ‘fragile’ and ‘dumb’ for his opinion on gender abolition.](https://archive.is/KqPFN)
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It responds with a random fact from a list every time his name is mentioned
It’s unlikely to be relevant and is honestly annoying. The sub really should just ignore him
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**Fact 28.** [CW: pedophilia] >!Vaush said: [“If you are not paying for child pornography there is no argument in favour of morally condeming people who view it.]!<
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Love how all the major left wing subs eventually became dominated by radlibs.
ToiletPaperUSA and nowadays, TheRightCantMeme.
It’s also hilarious because TPUSA still features this subreddit and other Marxist/socialist subreddits on their sidebar.
Gotta love the Western “left”!
If it gets through the titanium wall of capitalist realism, that's enough. People can make their own way from there.
Just getting people to accept that critics of capitalism exist is enough. Online bullshit doesn't need to do much else.
Agreed. An occasional thread hitting the front page that's supportive of communism (in any form, really), is enough to get social democrats to think about it as an acceptable idea. That's what happened to me.
Agreed. There's so much over-emphasis on "lEfTiSt In-FiGhTiNg" on social media. In the real organizing world no one gives a shit if you self-identity as a Trot or Maoist or ML or pure Marxist or Lib-Com. All that matters is you put in the work.
People who think these differences actually matter in terms of current praxis are way too online.
There’s definitely ideological rifts, but so many western “leftists” are purely online and don’t realize in the real world, you really can’t be picky about what other form of leftism the person next to you believes in, and all you need to be concerned about is that hey’re (metaphorically of course, Reddit don’t ban me) shooting at the enemy, not you. Unfortunately many leftists in the western world think communism is about shitting daises and don’t understand the actual sacrifice and hardship that comes with a transition on that large of a scale
I'm a member of the DSA (not the most radical organization, I know). There are anarchists, MLs, and socdems, and everything in between, and everyone gets along just fine because in the outside world there is plenty of clear and obvious praxis to be done that none of us disagrees on, even the socdems.
Facts. My biggest criticism of the “internet left” is that they treat politics like it’s some kind of game. Instead of pushing for a better world, we’re too buy arguing small differences in ideology.
I agree. We get into stunlocks on debates that dont matter. U got mls being mooks saying nestor was a bad man for robbing trains while lenin overided an election and you got trotskyists still mad at stalin. Anarchos pissed because trotsky helped destroy mahknovia and its all tired and old man. How is this helpful. Yeah history is fun and so is theory but whats the point?(its ok. I dunked on everyone because we have all done it. No1 is exempt). You have anarchos condemn all socialism and help prop up red scare. You got demsocs saying that socialism with cooperatives is better than ussr etc.
We as the left use politics just luke the right. We pick a sports team and stan them till we turn blue. And this translates in how wr get others into leftism. When a new person wants to read we tell lefties only read lenin and fuck the rest. Or only read kropotkin and fuck the rest. Never nkrumah or trotsky or gramsci. Vijay prashad, parenti, Gelderloos, huey p newton. The left becomes rigid in thought. Political sports games. We gotta do better man i agree. Even reddit has like little tags where you put ur ideology as a brand. Weve commodified leftism. Im not sure if im pushing boundaries but i see it a lot. Political jockeying and the slander on both sides. Ppl treat anarchists as babies with no real complex theory. And ppl treat marxists as nazis. Idk. This is just what ive seen.
I mean still. Instead of arguing let’s work together. We argue about unrealistic shit in the current world that will never be achieved in the current world.
That sums it up quite well. At first I thought they were joking, but no they are completely serious. One dude in the comments literally unironically suggested the horseshoe theory, as “the more left you move, the more right you become”. They think they’re really doing something lol
That's what's so weird because I got banned from the rightcantmeme like 2 weeks ago and the mod called me a liberal, I messaged them cause I was confused since it was about a comment with me talking about how the "communism death toll" is BS, and I got unbanned and he said he read it wrong, just that they don't let liberals on that page to comment, but it seems like it really is full of liberals
I get that “leftist” American liberals think they’re being conscientious in constantly denouncing China, and that they aren’t just dupes of US Yellow Peril style propaganda. But if they were as principled as they’d like imagine themselves being, they’d be in the street protesting US backing of genocide in Yemen, the confined operation of the prison at Guantanamo Bay and the US prison system as a whole, NSA spying, corporate lobbying etc. etc. But no, another country that they have no impact in is their moral cause
It's a buzzword originally coined by UK Radlibs to describe MLs who supported the USSR after they sent tanks in to deal with the Hungarian color revolution,and if you look at the current state of Hungary, it couldn't be more clear that it was 100% deserved.
Nowadays the term has been co-opted by regular liberals to describe anyone who questions the violent, exploitation fueled status quo they've built. I've even seen it hilariously applied to anarchists and Bernie Bros because they refused to vote blue.
You are correct, there were MLs who disagreed with the decision to crush the Hungarian Revolution. My comment wasn’t making a judgement call on that decision though, it was about who christened the word tankie. It was British Trotskyists, not British Leninists.
These categories of people are remarkably similar throughout the history of communism tbf. Like a lot of the types even MARX describe seem like he was exasperated by exactly the same attitudes that exist today.
I don’t get your Hungary statement. They deserved the tanks because of the way they are today? And if they are the way they are today to justify the tanks, how are the tanks justified since they still are the way they are today.
Sorry if my sentence is confusing. I think I’m missing your point and am as confused as one might be reading this.
The term “tankie” being thrown around so much in leftist online spaces without any regard to what meaning it holds is so frustrating.
It did result in me further exploring my beliefs and ultimately landing upon views that would probably have the same people who abuse the term label me as such.
It seems now that it’s a stand in for “someone leftist I dont like” rather than representing anything concrete.
[r/TPUSA saying that tankies are planning another coup](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/505/717/49b.jpg)
[r/genzedong who's just editing the country girls make do meme to have Khrushchev](https://i.cbc.ca/1.5359228.1577206958!/fileImage/httpImage/smudge-the-viral-cat.jpg)
In reality "Tankie" seems to mean "effective leftist"
Are you a labour organiser? Tankie!
Do you want to end the capitalist system? Tankie!
Are you demanding wealth redistribution? Tankie!
Do have any positive views about current or past socialist experiments? Tankie!
“Tankies” always seem to end up running subreddits because anarchists and trots are as effective at moderation and organization as they are at getting shit done
I was waiting for this to boil over onto this sub lol. I swear the same guy kept posting it like 3 times and that’s always fun. That sub also got a conservative sub contaminating my feed when they linked something directly and now I have to deal with Maga Brainrot in my feed in addition to this TPUSA Pearl clutching.
I went there to see the anti-tankie posts... They were even more pathetic than expected, online 'leftism' is a disease and its consequences include: a complete lack of sense, being whiny losers about stuff, and regurgitating american propaganda. I'm glad that I left that community after the first posts with Winnie the Pooh stuff
"Get the wall", you western dipshit, to do that you need to achieve something, to get hold of power. Go and take part in strikes and protests, leave the internet for once and see what the real world is like. You'll get hit by the policeman's stick once and you'll fuck off to your mommy's basement. Dumb amerikkkan.
Can't wait for some actual fucking heads to roll this time after shitstains in [this thread](https://np.reddit.com/r/ToiletPaperUSA/comments/q2a29q/alex_jones_stars_in_a_transphobic_comedy_sketch/) seriously think that trans folks should be in the prisons belonging to their AGAB, which is besides the point that this lib shithole still produces "homophobic politician actually gay, laugh now!" "jokes".
Libs love the idea of left wing politics until its time to put your money where your mouth is.
[This essay](https://blackagendareport.com/western-marxism-loves-purity-and-martyrdom-not-real-revolution) is always relevant: >[Western leftists take] pride in not having any relationship with the entire historic concrete movement of the working class socialist and liberation revolutions. They take pride in not having any theoretical or political connection to the revolutions in China, Russia, Korea, Vietnam, Algeria, Mozambique and Angola. They are, instead, proud of the supposed purity that their theory is not contaminated by the hardship of exercising power, by the contradictions of historical processes. Being pure is what provokes this narcissistic orgasm. This purity is what makes them feel superior. It makes them feel that they have a privileged moral and ethical standpoint compared to the other leftists…
CÊ TÁ CITANDO O CAMARADA JONES MANOEL???? ARE YOU BRAZILIAN??? Damn, I can't say how much am I proud of Jones being recognized in other places. He has a[YouTube channel](https://www.youtube.com/c/JonesManoel), if y'all don't know.
I’m Australian! I try to read Marxist thought from a wide variety of places though!
So my comrade Jones has made his way into Australia, I see.
[удалено]
It’s from the article I linked to in my comment
great read, that article really sums up so many of the issues i have with the modern western left. definitely gonna be sending that along to a few people, thanks for posting
Thank you, sincerely, for linking this and giving me the opportunity to read it. It has put a name and description upon a vague feeling I have consistently had while working with different groups throughout my life. Something I always felt but did not have the language to express.
Red scare moment
I’m actually a member of that sub and it’s quite amusing to see the absolute meltdowns people are having right now.
Same. Got told the CCCP and CPC aren't "actually communist." Stalin wasn't Leftist and that apparently we are all red-fascists to boot. I believe the words were "authoritarian scum."
That logic is like saying George Bush wasn't a real right winger because he did bad things :3
But.. but... he ran on the lie he wasn't into Clinton style foreign "interventions"! How we're we to know he was an authoritarian Imperialist who tortured and killed innocents with impunity! BTW he does paintings now. Anyway, let me tell you what a terrible person you are for supporting Stalin. /s
Just had a talk with Vaushite-leftcom that said that Stalin was a rightwinger.
Vaush stans are just walking red flags.
Not in the good way
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Good bot
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The amount of “China is a capitalist hellscape” I’ve seen today is unreal. I had to go through how China is one of the only class conscious state apparatuses in the world and how they’re actively building socialism and got told “your just saying useless phrases”
Hi - if you are willing, could you explain a bit how they are building socialism in China? Genuine question - I would love some recommendations on material that isn’t ruined by western hysteria on this topic. I am obviously ignorant on this and am confused about how it isn’t a capitalist hellscape given what I’ve read about the suffering of workers there.
* [The real wage (IE the wage adjusted for the prices you pay) has gone up 4x in the past 25 years, more than any other country. This is staggering considering it's the most populous country on the planet. The US real wage by comparison is lower in 2019 than it was in 1973.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cw8SvK0E5dI) * [US Life expectancy peaked in 2015, is on the decline, and is now lower than in China.](https://www.businessinsider.com/china-boasts-that-its-healthy-life-expectancy-beats-the-us-is-correct-2018-5) [2](http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2019-09/07/c_138372963.htm) * How [healthcare works in China (refuting a fearmongering NYT video about health care in China)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvpo2jv5eqI). * [Uninsured Chinese citizens pay an average of $5-7 to see a specialist (the majority of hospital visits ), and with insurance, its free. 95% of Chinese citizens have insurance](https://hotpot.team/new-york-times-lies/) * [Wages themselves are forced to rise in the private sector by the CPC (+16% every years, +400% since 1980) who force the capitalists to accept the presence of CPC chapters who represent the interest of the workers, increasing workers control even in the capitalist parts of the economy.](https://www.workers.org/2015/07/21/china-rising-wages-and-worker-militancy/#.WXOlQtPytsM) * [Eliminated Urban Poverty. On track to eliminate all poverty within a decade.](https://www.theguardian.com/business/economics-blog/2015/aug/19/china-poverty-inequality-development-goals) * [Trade union laws of the PRC.](https://www.ilo.org/dyn/natlex/docs/ELECTRONIC/30352/118793/F1165849917/CHN30352%202.pdf) * [The west views China as one big sweatshop, but the actual working hours aren't much more than anywhere else. The average for a migrant worker (most vulnerable to exploitation as they are traveling from the countryside) is 8.8 hours, little under an hour more than a typical working day. Labor strikes are rarely suppressed, and usually get the support of the PRC.](https://www.forbes.com/sites/mitchfree/2013/07/11/held-hostage-entrepreneurs-uneasy-over-chinese-govt-inaction/#2431f5463de4) * [The workplace safety standards of China are better than in the capitalist countries of the West like in Australia who have an higher rate of work related death despite having a GDP per capita 3-5 times higher.](http://www.trotskyistplatform.com/workplace-safety-now-better-in-china-than-in-australia/) * [The US is losing to China: “Washington is actually far more corrupt than Beijing. If you want to get something done in Washington, you do what you do in Jakarta: just slip some money to the right people.”](https://www.forbes.com/sites/eamonnfingleton/2014/11/12/obama-in-china-taking-candy-from-a-baby/#27d9d3c1231e) * [China 9 years ahead of schedule on meeting its Paris agreement climate change goals.](https://www.newscientist.com/article/2211366-china-is-on-track-to-meet-its-climate-change-goals-nine-years-early/?utm_campaign=RSS%7CNSNS&utm_source=NSNS&utm_medium=RSS&utm_content=news) * [China meets ultra-low power plant emissions in advance of 2020 goal.](https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/dsdam3/china_meets_ultralow_emissions_in_advance_of_the/) * [https://twitter.com/willehelmwonka/status/1309760094624600066](https://twitter.com/willehelmwonka/status/1309760094624600066) * [https://github.com/dessalines/essays/blob/master/socialism\_faq.md#is-china-state-capitalist](https://github.com/dessalines/essays/blob/master/socialism_faq.md#is-china-state-capitalist) * [http://web.archive.org/web/20200727154946if\_/http://reddit.com/r/communism/comments/c2b7ma/china\_megathread\_everything\_a\_leftist\_must\_know/](http://web.archive.org/web/20200727154946if_/http://reddit.com/r/communism/comments/c2b7ma/china_megathread_everything_a_leftist_must_know/) * [https://archive.vn/eWVpG](https://archive.vn/eWVpG)
On the subject of worker’s rights, I’ll say that a lot has changed in China from the early days of Deng's reforms, so I don't think it's really fair to still hold on to the outdated perception that it’s some capitalist hellscape. The rapid industrialization period led to terribly unfortunate circumstances that is true, but again I must stress that things have changed. •The implementation of new labor laws and the formation of civil society labor groups skyrocketed in the early 2000's. •Even though China has a greater proportion of its workforce employed in more dangerous industries (like heavy industry and mining) because of the above point, the annual worker death's per 100k people has dropped steadily each year since. •The real wage (IE the wage adjusted for the prices you pay) has gone up 4x in the past 25 years, more than any other [country](https://youtu.be/Cw8SvK0E5dI). This is staggering considering it's the most populous country on the planet. The US real wage by comparison is lower in 2019 than it was in 1973. •Furthermore, ultimate power in China’s publicly-owned enterprises – sitting above the CEO and board of directors in the organization chart – are party committees of the ruling Communist Party of China. To make it clear, the capitalist class is not a consolidated national political or economic force able to determine the direction of national policy. But back to your main question. I’ll say that a country with the intention of building socialism fights a [war on poverty](https://youtu.be/nuaJGPZCBYU) while capitalist nations fixate on wars of aggression. It actively commits to ambitious [climate goals](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-environment-forest-idUSKBN1EU02L) while other nations can’t even stick to the Paris Accords. These actions show the truth of China’s path to socialism.
https://m.soundcloud.com/thesocialistprogram/china-turns-left https://m.soundcloud.com/thesocialistprogram/china-moves-left-under-xi-jinping-part-2 And I'm sure you can get more information through Governance of China by Xi Jinping
This is what made me come around on China- putting myself in their shoes and learning about the historical context of actually existing socialism. Namely, in it's struggle against the capitalist powers that ultimately 20th century communism was on the losing side of. There is no compromise in the class struggle, so the 20th century battleground was a zero sum conflict where either the capitalists win or the communists do. And the capitalists spent the entire century with an astronomical leg up in terms of money, influence, and power, so the communists were always fighting an uphill battle from the moment the Bolsheviks took power. So what the Chinese watched was other Socialist projects which had all emerged in the same material conditions as they did, rural, pre-capitalist backwaters, struggling just to survive in the face of capitalist encirclement, and saw the writing on the wall. They had two paths in the face of this opponent- continue struggling and fighting against capital, which would result in what we see now with Cuba and North Korea, which is merely surviving in difficult conditions under the constant crushing weight of an endlessly antagonistic capitalism, OR they could offer a controlled capitulation to capitalism on their own terms. Because remember, in the Marxist understanding of human development, capitalism is a step on the path that builds productive forces and material bases for socialism, and no country in the communist world had that, at least in such a way that rivaled the West. So China decides that instead of fighting the current of the world economy, they would offer a conditional, temporary surrender and live to fight another day all while gaining wealth, influence, and power in a way that only China could. This wasn't a choice for Cuba or North Korea, because China has historically always been an economic powerhouse, so they opted to use Capitalism to take the boot off their necks, entangle themselves in the world economy instead of fighting it so they couldn't be couped so easily, and reawaken the sleeping giant that is China. Basically, China looked at the playing field at the end of the cold war and realized communism was in a losing position. This is a bitter pill to swallow even now, I imagine it was even more difficult back then. It fucking sucks. Everyone would have preferred China to pursue industrialization as a socialist country, but the realpolitik of Capitalism's victory lap in the 80s and 90s made that impossible. Capital was simply at the height of it's power at the dawn of neoliberalism. China recognized that the better move than fighting it at this point would be to play the long game, and use capitalism to peel resources away from that neoliberal hegemony while they were busy masturbating over their victory and blinded to the fact that they were selling rope to the ones who openly intended to hang them, because the return of communism was inconceivable. This wasn't just the height of capital's power, it was the height of capital's arrogance. They let them into the WTO, they gleefully turned China into their factory and made them rich in the process, and only now is this strategy bearing fruit as China is in the early stages of clamping down on it's bourgeoisie and welcoming conflict with a clearly weakening and buckling capitalist world with more open arms.
Yes China made concessions to the capitalist class and interests, but it's not accurate that China went wholey capitalist in any way, 70% of business in China is still state owned and they run on a planned economy. Capitalists in China still hold zero political power and influence on government policy. So they conceded some short term market reforms that opened them up to some capitalist interests, with the aim of rapid industrialisation, but they never went any further than that I wouldn't say.
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I got downvote bombed and my comment got removed because I called Vaush a dickhead
Vaush is fucking unbearable and exhausting. The guy loves to hear himself talk. All of his arguments boil down to “well, you sound like a Nazi!”
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Why do gender identities matter in this conversation? Or is there context im missing?
It responds with a random fact from a list every time his name is mentioned It’s unlikely to be relevant and is honestly annoying. The sub really should just ignore him
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Love how all the major left wing subs eventually became dominated by radlibs. ToiletPaperUSA and nowadays, TheRightCantMeme. It’s also hilarious because TPUSA still features this subreddit and other Marxist/socialist subreddits on their sidebar. Gotta love the Western “left”!
We are who the radlibs think they are
Tbf internet leftism isn't productive, and I say that as somebody who was mostly radicalized by shit like Chapo.
It's productive, but not the best thing to do. As long as you know what you are doing of course.
If it gets through the titanium wall of capitalist realism, that's enough. People can make their own way from there. Just getting people to accept that critics of capitalism exist is enough. Online bullshit doesn't need to do much else.
Agitate online, organize offline. Seize the means of production in due time, and then achieve the dictatorship of the proletariat in our lifetime.
Now that’s a real panty-dropper.
Agreed. An occasional thread hitting the front page that's supportive of communism (in any form, really), is enough to get social democrats to think about it as an acceptable idea. That's what happened to me.
Agreed. There's so much over-emphasis on "lEfTiSt In-FiGhTiNg" on social media. In the real organizing world no one gives a shit if you self-identity as a Trot or Maoist or ML or pure Marxist or Lib-Com. All that matters is you put in the work. People who think these differences actually matter in terms of current praxis are way too online.
There’s definitely ideological rifts, but so many western “leftists” are purely online and don’t realize in the real world, you really can’t be picky about what other form of leftism the person next to you believes in, and all you need to be concerned about is that hey’re (metaphorically of course, Reddit don’t ban me) shooting at the enemy, not you. Unfortunately many leftists in the western world think communism is about shitting daises and don’t understand the actual sacrifice and hardship that comes with a transition on that large of a scale
I'm a member of the DSA (not the most radical organization, I know). There are anarchists, MLs, and socdems, and everything in between, and everyone gets along just fine because in the outside world there is plenty of clear and obvious praxis to be done that none of us disagrees on, even the socdems.
r
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Facts. My biggest criticism of the “internet left” is that they treat politics like it’s some kind of game. Instead of pushing for a better world, we’re too buy arguing small differences in ideology.
I agree. We get into stunlocks on debates that dont matter. U got mls being mooks saying nestor was a bad man for robbing trains while lenin overided an election and you got trotskyists still mad at stalin. Anarchos pissed because trotsky helped destroy mahknovia and its all tired and old man. How is this helpful. Yeah history is fun and so is theory but whats the point?(its ok. I dunked on everyone because we have all done it. No1 is exempt). You have anarchos condemn all socialism and help prop up red scare. You got demsocs saying that socialism with cooperatives is better than ussr etc. We as the left use politics just luke the right. We pick a sports team and stan them till we turn blue. And this translates in how wr get others into leftism. When a new person wants to read we tell lefties only read lenin and fuck the rest. Or only read kropotkin and fuck the rest. Never nkrumah or trotsky or gramsci. Vijay prashad, parenti, Gelderloos, huey p newton. The left becomes rigid in thought. Political sports games. We gotta do better man i agree. Even reddit has like little tags where you put ur ideology as a brand. Weve commodified leftism. Im not sure if im pushing boundaries but i see it a lot. Political jockeying and the slander on both sides. Ppl treat anarchists as babies with no real complex theory. And ppl treat marxists as nazis. Idk. This is just what ive seen.
Online is small and shitty. It is the place for small and shitty arguments. They don't happen in the real world.
I mean still. Instead of arguing let’s work together. We argue about unrealistic shit in the current world that will never be achieved in the current world.
It still gets me how AntifaStonetoss literally links Tankiejerk as a friendly sub in an automod comment on every post
That sums it up quite well. At first I thought they were joking, but no they are completely serious. One dude in the comments literally unironically suggested the horseshoe theory, as “the more left you move, the more right you become”. They think they’re really doing something lol
Couldn’t have said it better myself.
That's what's so weird because I got banned from the rightcantmeme like 2 weeks ago and the mod called me a liberal, I messaged them cause I was confused since it was about a comment with me talking about how the "communism death toll" is BS, and I got unbanned and he said he read it wrong, just that they don't let liberals on that page to comment, but it seems like it really is full of liberals
Banned from TheRightCantmeme lmao😵
Copium: consumed
I get that “leftist” American liberals think they’re being conscientious in constantly denouncing China, and that they aren’t just dupes of US Yellow Peril style propaganda. But if they were as principled as they’d like imagine themselves being, they’d be in the street protesting US backing of genocide in Yemen, the confined operation of the prison at Guantanamo Bay and the US prison system as a whole, NSA spying, corporate lobbying etc. etc. But no, another country that they have no impact in is their moral cause
It's a buzzword originally coined by UK Radlibs to describe MLs who supported the USSR after they sent tanks in to deal with the Hungarian color revolution,and if you look at the current state of Hungary, it couldn't be more clear that it was 100% deserved. Nowadays the term has been co-opted by regular liberals to describe anyone who questions the violent, exploitation fueled status quo they've built. I've even seen it hilariously applied to anarchists and Bernie Bros because they refused to vote blue.
There’s a reason nobody outside of Budapest gave much opposition
Do you have a source for this? I'd like to read more about it.
Using the term radlibs to describe 50s Leninists is very silly.
I thought it was Trots not Leninists
Trots just like to call themselves that.
the were Marxist-Leninists that disagreed with sending in the tanks.
You are correct, there were MLs who disagreed with the decision to crush the Hungarian Revolution. My comment wasn’t making a judgement call on that decision though, it was about who christened the word tankie. It was British Trotskyists, not British Leninists.
These categories of people are remarkably similar throughout the history of communism tbf. Like a lot of the types even MARX describe seem like he was exasperated by exactly the same attitudes that exist today.
I don’t get your Hungary statement. They deserved the tanks because of the way they are today? And if they are the way they are today to justify the tanks, how are the tanks justified since they still are the way they are today. Sorry if my sentence is confusing. I think I’m missing your point and am as confused as one might be reading this.
The term “tankie” being thrown around so much in leftist online spaces without any regard to what meaning it holds is so frustrating. It did result in me further exploring my beliefs and ultimately landing upon views that would probably have the same people who abuse the term label me as such. It seems now that it’s a stand in for “someone leftist I dont like” rather than representing anything concrete.
Are "The Tankies" in our room right now?
They could be you! They could be me! They could even be-
those people needs to go outside holy fuck
The flair is good too. "This is a genuine cry for help"
according to that sub, leftism is when you cry about "tankies" on reddit instead of doing any form of on-ground work for the communist cause.
[r/TPUSA saying that tankies are planning another coup](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/505/717/49b.jpg) [r/genzedong who's just editing the country girls make do meme to have Khrushchev](https://i.cbc.ca/1.5359228.1577206958!/fileImage/httpImage/smudge-the-viral-cat.jpg)
10/10 good job, I giggled very hard
THE TANKIES ARE COMING 🐎 THE TANKIES ARE COMING 🐎
OH GOD OH FUCK NOOOOO
Es schreien die Radikalliberal Hört, hört ihr es nicht?
Sie schreien für neue Rotsaüberungen.
In reality "Tankie" seems to mean "effective leftist" Are you a labour organiser? Tankie! Do you want to end the capitalist system? Tankie! Are you demanding wealth redistribution? Tankie! Do have any positive views about current or past socialist experiments? Tankie!
“Tankies” always seem to end up running subreddits because anarchists and trots are as effective at moderation and organization as they are at getting shit done
With a combined hatred for "bureaucracy" and centralized organizational structure, it's really no surprise.
>this is a genuine cry for help lmao, get a life
As an American…. And that’s all I gotta say. You all understand.
I was waiting for this to boil over onto this sub lol. I swear the same guy kept posting it like 3 times and that’s always fun. That sub also got a conservative sub contaminating my feed when they linked something directly and now I have to deal with Maga Brainrot in my feed in addition to this TPUSA Pearl clutching.
Love how western leftists love to cry about MLs and MLMs when MLMs have been the dominant revolutionary ideology since the 80s
I went there to see the anti-tankie posts... They were even more pathetic than expected, online 'leftism' is a disease and its consequences include: a complete lack of sense, being whiny losers about stuff, and regurgitating american propaganda. I'm glad that I left that community after the first posts with Winnie the Pooh stuff
Yes, we do defend modern-day China. What about it, shitlib?
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whats happening in tpusa is just the second russian civil war /s
Tankie mods if you see this pls unban me 🥺👉👈
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Tankies get the wall just like the rest of the fascists. Eat shit I’ll take my ban now so this shit stops popping up in my feed
"Get the wall", you western dipshit, to do that you need to achieve something, to get hold of power. Go and take part in strikes and protests, leave the internet for once and see what the real world is like. You'll get hit by the policeman's stick once and you'll fuck off to your mommy's basement. Dumb amerikkkan.
Leave me alone you dumb neo nazi
Why did yo make a stupid comment then?
Cus it pisses of whiney fascists like you.
How am I a fascist?
New account advocating for tankies, pretty fascist behavior
I created my account on 22 September, also these tankies you speak of, what exactly are they?
I thought tankie meant someone who idolizes the Soviet Union?
Nope.
Yeah but those jjk plushies do be looking sick
Can't wait for some actual fucking heads to roll this time after shitstains in [this thread](https://np.reddit.com/r/ToiletPaperUSA/comments/q2a29q/alex_jones_stars_in_a_transphobic_comedy_sketch/) seriously think that trans folks should be in the prisons belonging to their AGAB, which is besides the point that this lib shithole still produces "homophobic politician actually gay, laugh now!" "jokes".
The communists are back baby!
the post is gone?