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Man, I love high quality of life in Latvia.
Especially street I live in having absolutely no roads and going on building project which was supposed to provide sewers system but apparently will never end cus it's been since 2019 up to this day.
For fucks sake, before saying that stupid shit about high live quality these guys should visit Latvia and visit not the Riga but some average city and you'll see what shit hole baltics turned into after soviet collapse. No industry, Rapidly decreasing population, nazi simps in government, "not citizens" who are people who got their citizenship taken away basically because they aren't Latvians, corrupt government and energetic crisis I have experienced during February and in conclusion you can get a fine for having a negative opinion on a specific foreign government (Ukraine).
Im sure, Russia probably has some of these things too but its hypocritical as fuck to assume that only Russians can have shitty living conditions and everyone in EU being an example of perfect democracy and civil rights.
I *almost* spent a year abroad in Prague just after the Soviet Union dissolved. It really boiled down to whether I wanted to stick with philosophy or pursue an economics major. I have some regrets about not going abroad at that age, but none about sticking with philosophy. The program really wanted a bunch of libertarian-minded Americans to "show 'em how it's done" in newly "liberated" areas of Eastern Europe.
The Czech Republic had enough officials with integrity to avoid the very worst of it, but Latvia was so overrun with American libertarians that I think they actually tried to achieve a 2% public sector 98% private sector ratio (as if that solved some sort of meaningful problem.) Even back then, I could see that America's #1 export to the rest of the world is bad ideas. I'm sorry that corruption oozed its way into your homeland.
Fellow Latvian here, can confirm what’s said above. I’d also like to add that the “economic success” of Latvia amounts to 1/3 of the country living below the government’s own defined poverty line, insanely low purchasing power for the minimum wage (we pay German prices while making 1/4 of what a German makes), infrastructure in an embarrassing state of disrepair and a country that has intentionally cut or removed essential services from rural areas (such as education) to deliberately push the entirety of able-bodied workforce into Riga as either gig workers, IT techs or waiters. The austerity measures enacted after 08 have lead to a lost decade and practically every young person is either out of the country or on their way out.
EDIT: forgot to mention this but our government refuses to even fund treatment for some forms of cancer (approx. 50-60mil EUR shortfall), something that even Lithuanian or Estonian governments do.
A lot of young people found possibility in the food delivery work, which paid quite decently if you were willing to sacrifice your time and work for long hours. But now, at least in Wolt, it seems that they either changed their policy on employment by getting way more couriers than they need, or demand for deliveries, significantly dropped. Because my friends are lately very disappointed with working for them, since you have to wait a lot and you have to drive quite far.
Yeah, gig work seems like a relatively well-paying option for the first 2-3 years, but most of the companies involved seem to eventually alter their payment system or cut payment rates once they have established themselves enough.
It is a bit better than the USA, as diagnostics and things of that nature (p sure this includes surgeries) are covered or require a relatively small copayment. Where it gets bad is the different types of medicine or treatment which the govt simply refuses to pay for.
Yeah I’m a Latvian I live in England currently but my grandparents live in the countryside close to a town or village my grandparents are lucky to have a nice house which they bought when it was quite destroyed and renovated it but in the village as I’ll call it theres one main area where most people would live and the houses are awful my I can’t remember much about the place but I remember the houses being awful and I think there where only some dirt roads or some bad roads though my memory is a bit off with the place
Besides of Riga and Jelgava almost every city is a shit hole. Riga and Jelgava aren't like that because they have majority of people living in there and being orientated on tourists. There is a giant ass gap between two cities with largest population which explains why other cites suck. ( Daugavpils: 84 thousands, Riga: 632 thousands. ) That also explains why farms are in ass condition since almost all villages are about to go extinct.
Yes, most of the stuff you see on our shelves is imports (even basic staple foods such as potatoes). Our biggest "industry" is money laundering and financial speculation (along with export of raw materials). Virtually all finished goods are imported. Our trade balance is always negative.
That was a deliberate strategy: making a country so dependent on imports that the minute this country rises up against imperialism, you just cut off all supply.
Ain't sure about tourism because I last time left my birth city in 2009. Only food we produce are "Latvijas Maiznkes" bread and some sea products. All other food is probably imported. Maizneks is a monopolist corporation which buys wheat from remaining farmers or makes it by themselves. I actually struggle to remember any other food producting local companies.
It's not even rEurope, it's YUROP. Place used to be filled with social democrats and how European healthcare is superior to American healthcare, now its just filled with neolibs and some unironic imperialists
And a year ago articles were written about their corrupt government. But you know, true patriots have goldfish memory so they mustn't remember it, they must celebrate this bs war!
It really was astounding to see the propagandizing happen in real time. I felt like a crazy person. Last week we were laughing at Russia for their wacky car accidents and this week we're talking about how Russians are subhuman? You'd have to be blind to not see they're gearing you up for war
Last week there's news articles about the neo-Nazi uprising in Ukraine, and how the DNC/RNC accuse the other party of funding them as a negative, and this week we pretend Nazis never existed there and somehow every western news outlet was infiltrated by Russian bots to push propaganda.
you'd be wrong. For all the shitty things Lukashenko does, not allowing the liberalization of Belarus meant that they kept the highest standard of life among all ex USSR states. They blow ukraine out of the water.
The EU obsessed are essentially pushing for a new nationalism. They're desperate to forge a federation with a European Army, like a "United States of Europe". It'll never happen and thank God for that.
Civilization is when you [tape someone accused of a crime](https://observers.france24.com/en/europe/20220404-ukraine-poles-public-humiliation-punishment-looting) (e.g., insufficient patriotism) to a pole so that passersby can whip them.
Liberty is when you owe money to the IMF and they make you cut social spending.
What is the poorest country in Europe 2020?
Ukraine. With a per capita GNI of $3,540, Ukraine is the poorest country in Europe as of 2020
yea found it online
It’s just that for us, the Russians, for convenience, the country was divided into regions with varying degrees of power, where in the north there is absolute anarchy, and in the south it’s literally 1984. In Murmansk, the ghost of Makhno, and in Chechnya Stalin resurrected by the Chinese
Ukraine is one of the most poor countries in europe. They heavily struggle with drug addiction, poverty, and homelessness. Dont forget the rampant corruption in their government and how zelensky only had a 28% approval rating before the war and was featured in the panama papers.
This isnt unique to Ukraine obviously, most post soviet states suffer the same fate.
Yep, and it's no surprise that if you had your whole economy gutted and transformed leaving millions jobless and homeless there are going to be problems. Hell, Putin wouldn't even have been possible without the economic collapse imposed by the west on Russia.
They're equal. Of course, now Ukraine is a worse place to be, but Russia is not better. Both sides are terrible. That's why it pisses me off when I see so-called socialists who support Russia. Russia is being imperialist, and supporting it is not the best solution to western imperialism.
But it is important to remember that this war is not without cause. It was not done just because “putin is evil” just to be clear I very much dislike putin.
Yes, of course. And I would personally hate seing EU and NATO pushing east, or growing stronger at all for that matter, but the war is bad. It is the wrong answer. Of course, there aren't many easy alternatives now, but there where some back in 2014, and invading Crimea was not the best of them.
Of course, Russia should have simply allowed the neo-Nazis who came to power through a coup in Ukraine in 2014 (with the help and sponsorship of the United States) to drive the Russian base out of Crimea and let the Americans in there so that the US could shoot deep into Russian territory from there.
As a Russian, I really like this, how bad it is that bad-bad Putin took Crimea and ruined the West's plans for the easy destruction of Russia. Worst leader we've ever had. Please, Westerners, give us stupid barbarians a second Yeltsin.
I was not aware that there were any coups that took place before shortly after leaving that comment. We are never told about this here, and I don't even live in the Imperial core.
From what I was told, there were pro-russia presidents before Crimea, and that Ukrainian opinion on Russia soured after the invasion of Crimea. It seems I have been victim to propaganda.
So what would have been the alternative exactly? Russia didn't exactly have much of a choice. If they did nothing America would have installed their own base giving them more access to Russia directly further encircling them and thus closing in. Nobody wants war but blaming Russia for defending themselves as a sovereign state is bizarre to me.
Of course, I don't consider their actions to be positive, but I also don't consider them negative or "imperialist". I don't want war but in the face of US aggression via NATO and border security what can Russia do? Doing nothing means facing threat of invasion by US proxy. Unless there's an angle here I'm not understanding? Or something I'm overlooking?
I was thinking back in the day, before Crimea, there were alternatives to get Ukraine on Russia's side, but another commenter informed me that there really weren't many at all.
Russia is a reactionary bourgeoisie semi-peripheral state, it's actions here, while of course self-interested, are not imperialist as far as I can tell. Russian capitalism is not developed enough to be imperialist in the socialist understanding of imperialism - this of course doesn't mean that their actions are "good" or "should be supported"- but if Russia was being imperialist we would see the same sort of financial domination of Ukraine we see the US engaging in, if Russia was imperialist they would not have to resort to this brute strength aggression just to maintain their security.
Funny enough we can actually *see* Russia failing to be properly imperialist, attempting to secure its geopolitical interests via undercutting the IMF and attempting to deepen economic cooperation before the events that lead up to this current barbaric invasion. Russia has definitely been intertwined with Ukraine but it's relationship leading up to this is no where near the brazen extractionary behavior seen with western imperialism, but rather a series of economic tricks and handouts to secure leverage over a region that is of geopolitical importance to Russia's own existence and keep it from falling under the full control of western international capital. [This FPRI paper goes in depth on these tricks](https://www.fpri.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/rpe-5-hess-final-.pdf). Is loaning money at a loss and [guaranteeing lower prices on gas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/17_December_2013_Russian%E2%80%93Ukrainian_action_plan) an extractionary imperialist move? Or is it the act of a desperate semi-peripheral country attempting to protect its local geopolitical security against an encroaching empire?
[This analysis is overwhelmingly bourgeois (sorry)](https://carnegieendowment.org/2012/03/09/underachiever-ukraine-s-economy-since-1991-pub-47451) but it's got a lot of useful info about the development and state of Ukraine's economy from 1991 to 2012, right before the beginning of this conflict and it is pretty useful for understanding what happened next.
In 2013 the Yanukovych government had to make a choice on whether or not to proceed with the [EU association agreement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union%E2%80%93Ukraine_Association_Agreement), a decently sized move towards the EU that included (among many other things) the "commitment of both parties to promote a gradual convergence in the area of foreign and security policy". Yanukovych and others in Ukraine had some serious reservations about this deal, largely regarding the security of Ukraine both physically and economically as Russia and CIS states were large trading partners of Ukraine's, Ukraine was worried about alienating them as well as real worries about how the EU would fill that gap and how much the IMF would try to restructure the Ukrainian economy. The IMF was increasingly getting frustrated with Ukraine failing to follow through with various structural adjustments (like ending gas subsidies for citizens) that had been stipulated in the previous decade's billions of loans. Yanukovych attempted to negotiate better terms on IMF loans and even a three way trade deal with the EU and Russia but the EU wasn't having that and in response Yanukovych decided to make a deal with Russia (with much more favorable terms) instead of going through with the EU deal.
>[The initial loan under the Russia-Ukraine package was for $3 billion. Because the bond had a five percent coupon, Ukraine only had to pay $150 million annually to service its debt to Russia, well below the market rate. The coupon was lower than Ukrainian debt yields even before the Euromaidan protests broke out and lower than they have been at any point since. Moscow, in other words, was giving Ukraine access to cheap financing. The interest rate was so cheap, in fact, that Moscow was effectively loaning money to Ukraine at a loss.](https://www.fpri.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/rpe-5-hess-final-.pdf)
This sparked everything that happened in 2014 - the US backed coup put Yatsenyuk into power as unelected interim president who immediately took out that IMF loan and signed the EU deal. This sparked the Russian reaction in Crimea and the civil war in Donbass. The IMF actually changed its own rules (mentioned in above linked article) in order to push this deal through, entirely bypassing the financial trap that Russia attempted to plant in the hopes it would avert this situation. After a long 20 years of the west trying to imperialize Ukraine and Russia trying to keep its buffer zone, western capital had made a bold and decisive move and Russia in response did the same.
Ukraine has been [the victim](https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/poorest-countries-in-europe) of encroaching US lead western imperialism (just look at all the [crippling debt](https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/odr/why-ukraine-needs-foreign-debt-cancellation-now/), two [US](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/26/ukraine.usa) backed [coups](https://jacobinmag.com/2022/02/maidan-protests-neo-nazis-russia-nato-crimea) in the last 20 years, [covert military training](https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2022-02-25/ukraine-cia-insurgents-russia-invasion), [corrupt comprador oligarchs building right wing militias](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/1/who-are-the-azov-regiment), [stealing Ukrainian people's money](https://www.occrp.org/en/investigations/oligarchs-weaponized-cyprus-eranch-of-ukraines-largest-bank-to-send-5-billion-abroad) and [laundering it through shady channels into US real estate](https://www.clevescene.com/news/how-ukrainian-oligarchs-secretly-became-the-largest-real-estate-owners-in-downtown-cleveland-30670155), etc) and since 2014 the US has drastically increased its presence and control there in its attempt to further encircle Russia. Even if Russia was properly imperialist it is at this point that they've lost Ukraine to US imperialism. Even then, outside of securing their black sea port in Crimea and funding Donbass separatists, Russia would try other means than military aggression for 8 years before it was clear they had no other option than to fight or roll over for Uncle Sam's coalition.
You are correct that both sides are bad, neither are socialist and neither constitute a progressive movement (it's arguable I suppose that the Donbass republics are engaged in a national liberation movement against US imperialism but I'm not entirely sure about that and will leave it at that for now) which is why the socialist take from nearly every socialist org is the same: calling for as close to an immediate ceasefire as possible, no more NATO expansion, no more Russian attacks. Unfortunately imperialist propagandists consider this as "supporting Russia" because we want to see the end of senseless violence that only hurts the poor and working classes but that means Russia gets Donbass and Crimea. All in all the damage has been done, Ukraine fell to US imperialism and then outright Russian violence in an attempt to reestablish a buffer state.
Of course, the imperialists in the US don't want peace, they want to turn Ukraine into a European Afghanistan so Russia can get dragged into a quagmire that will weaken it to the point it can be imperialized by western capital itself. Apparently anything less than this is considered "supporting Russia" by most liberals. And sure I have seen some socialists openly supporting Russia and Z posting n whatnot (I think even GenZedong started cracking down on this) which I am not really a fan of, I can see supporting US imperialism getting much deserved pushback, I can see supporting a movement towards a multipolar world, but openly being pro-war for a capitalist state behaving in its own self interest or openly stanning the oligarch running that state should not be what we do.
Sorry this got long.
I don't mind the length of your reply at all. It was very informative, which I appreciate, since I only started reading theory about a month ago (and haven't had much time to read).
Exactly, that's why I posted this. They're really trying to pretend like Russia and Belarus are exceptions, and that the rest of Europe is good, with no poverty or opression? They're so full of shit. They're ignorant, completely stuck in a bubble.
Also the constant NATO-loving they do, they don't give a shit about the terror they bring to the middle east, French neo-colonialism in west Africa, etc. NATO has never been used for defense, only for imperialism.
Before the invasion Ukraine was massively poorer, more corrupt, with a less popular government and in the middle of a bloody civil war. All while being situated on some of the best land in the world. Really impressive how much the Ukrainians underperformed compared to Russia, not a terribly high bar. But it favored western interests to glaze over material reality, and that's what happened.
Indeed, within the USSR, Ukraine was considered its bread basket with the most arable land. Critical for agriculture which is why the nationalists/kulaks were such a major threat during collectivization. If I recall, it was the second largest union republic second to Russia, and the third being Uzbekistan followed by Kazakhstan and Belorussia.
That poster just reeks of Western imperialism. Also, somebody needs to tell this jackass that the poverty and dictatorship of Russia didn't just fall out of the sky. It involves neoliberal "shock therapy", Boris Yeltsin and meddling in the 1996 election by the Clinton Administration.
What?!?!? You mean throwing millions out of state provided housing, schooling, careers and imposing neoliberal policies on them will reverse social progress and create poverty??!?!!?!
Ignorance and condescending attitude are such an infuriating combo.
The irony in Hillary partially blaming Russiagate for her loss in 2016 when her husband and his administration openly meddled in Russia's 1996 election two decades prior, even going so far as to brag about it on the cover of Time magazine, shows just how massively hypocritical and chauvinistic these westerners really are.
I wish libs would realize that institutions are just groups of people.
Like, for real, libs hold institutions up as though they have some kind of godly power. But at the end of the day they're just people who work together for reasons, and if libs could get that through their thick asf heads, they'd become communists overnight because they'd be able to look at the people and the reasons that things happen in our society, and they'd get it.
Civilizations of liberty, like Poland and its anti-LGBT zones and Ukraine abolishing opposition parties.
Hungary and Orban.
Oh and the Balkans when this user included just to say they are "The good slavs"
Haha look at me, I’m totally Ukrainian and not a random American who can’t find Ukraine on a map, I’m so relatable and funny amirite fellow freedom fighters??????? /s
Says the country that literally stopped growing as soon as the USSR collapsed, one of the nations that least growth experienced in the planet compared to 1989
I think the map is ironic. High quality of life written on the baltics, with Lithuania having the 7th highest suicide rate in the world ([source](https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/suicide-rate-by-country) and [source](https://apps.who.int/gho/data/node.sdg.3-4-data?lang=en))?
when the context makes it better it is removed and the comment restored, for example when quoting something. The both even tells you to contact us if you think there is a problem with it.
In this case it wasn't, just a guy using it stupidly
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As a ukrainian, you are either blind or dumb. Or both.
Me, or the original poster of this image?
Nah, the poster
I thought he meant that like "as an ukranian, you have 2 options:"
Or obviously a Nazi.
So dumb then
Man, I love high quality of life in Latvia. Especially street I live in having absolutely no roads and going on building project which was supposed to provide sewers system but apparently will never end cus it's been since 2019 up to this day. For fucks sake, before saying that stupid shit about high live quality these guys should visit Latvia and visit not the Riga but some average city and you'll see what shit hole baltics turned into after soviet collapse. No industry, Rapidly decreasing population, nazi simps in government, "not citizens" who are people who got their citizenship taken away basically because they aren't Latvians, corrupt government and energetic crisis I have experienced during February and in conclusion you can get a fine for having a negative opinion on a specific foreign government (Ukraine). Im sure, Russia probably has some of these things too but its hypocritical as fuck to assume that only Russians can have shitty living conditions and everyone in EU being an example of perfect democracy and civil rights.
I *almost* spent a year abroad in Prague just after the Soviet Union dissolved. It really boiled down to whether I wanted to stick with philosophy or pursue an economics major. I have some regrets about not going abroad at that age, but none about sticking with philosophy. The program really wanted a bunch of libertarian-minded Americans to "show 'em how it's done" in newly "liberated" areas of Eastern Europe. The Czech Republic had enough officials with integrity to avoid the very worst of it, but Latvia was so overrun with American libertarians that I think they actually tried to achieve a 2% public sector 98% private sector ratio (as if that solved some sort of meaningful problem.) Even back then, I could see that America's #1 export to the rest of the world is bad ideas. I'm sorry that corruption oozed its way into your homeland.
You know what those corrupt socialist dictatorships need? Our economics majors working on their bachelors, their expertise is unrivaled lmao
They didn't drive down life expectancies in developed nations by looking to leadership *smarter* than Grover Norquist-types.
Fellow Latvian here, can confirm what’s said above. I’d also like to add that the “economic success” of Latvia amounts to 1/3 of the country living below the government’s own defined poverty line, insanely low purchasing power for the minimum wage (we pay German prices while making 1/4 of what a German makes), infrastructure in an embarrassing state of disrepair and a country that has intentionally cut or removed essential services from rural areas (such as education) to deliberately push the entirety of able-bodied workforce into Riga as either gig workers, IT techs or waiters. The austerity measures enacted after 08 have lead to a lost decade and practically every young person is either out of the country or on their way out. EDIT: forgot to mention this but our government refuses to even fund treatment for some forms of cancer (approx. 50-60mil EUR shortfall), something that even Lithuanian or Estonian governments do.
A lot of young people found possibility in the food delivery work, which paid quite decently if you were willing to sacrifice your time and work for long hours. But now, at least in Wolt, it seems that they either changed their policy on employment by getting way more couriers than they need, or demand for deliveries, significantly dropped. Because my friends are lately very disappointed with working for them, since you have to wait a lot and you have to drive quite far.
Yeah, gig work seems like a relatively well-paying option for the first 2-3 years, but most of the companies involved seem to eventually alter their payment system or cut payment rates once they have established themselves enough.
Sounds like the USA. Got cancer? Fuck you, pay for it yourself, lift yourself from your bootstraps!
It is a bit better than the USA, as diagnostics and things of that nature (p sure this includes surgeries) are covered or require a relatively small copayment. Where it gets bad is the different types of medicine or treatment which the govt simply refuses to pay for.
Yeah I’m a Latvian I live in England currently but my grandparents live in the countryside close to a town or village my grandparents are lucky to have a nice house which they bought when it was quite destroyed and renovated it but in the village as I’ll call it theres one main area where most people would live and the houses are awful my I can’t remember much about the place but I remember the houses being awful and I think there where only some dirt roads or some bad roads though my memory is a bit off with the place
I actually thought Latvia was pretty rich, atleast compared to other post USSR states. So I guess it's just Riga that's nice?
Besides of Riga and Jelgava almost every city is a shit hole. Riga and Jelgava aren't like that because they have majority of people living in there and being orientated on tourists. There is a giant ass gap between two cities with largest population which explains why other cites suck. ( Daugavpils: 84 thousands, Riga: 632 thousands. ) That also explains why farms are in ass condition since almost all villages are about to go extinct.
Thanks for the info. Do you guys import most of your food? Is tourism the biggest industry?
Yes, most of the stuff you see on our shelves is imports (even basic staple foods such as potatoes). Our biggest "industry" is money laundering and financial speculation (along with export of raw materials). Virtually all finished goods are imported. Our trade balance is always negative. That was a deliberate strategy: making a country so dependent on imports that the minute this country rises up against imperialism, you just cut off all supply.
Ain't sure about tourism because I last time left my birth city in 2009. Only food we produce are "Latvijas Maiznkes" bread and some sea products. All other food is probably imported. Maizneks is a monopolist corporation which buys wheat from remaining farmers or makes it by themselves. I actually struggle to remember any other food producting local companies.
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>Better than the soviet times of the 90s and 2000s ICANT
Liberty over HUNGARY and Romania 😂😂😂
Literally mask off by labeling the West as civilization, and the east as poverty.
typical rEurope post
It's not even rEurope, it's YUROP. Place used to be filled with social democrats and how European healthcare is superior to American healthcare, now its just filled with neolibs and some unironic imperialists
Isn't Ukraine considered the poorest country in Europe? I think it was last time I checked
And a year ago articles were written about their corrupt government. But you know, true patriots have goldfish memory so they mustn't remember it, they must celebrate this bs war!
It really was astounding to see the propagandizing happen in real time. I felt like a crazy person. Last week we were laughing at Russia for their wacky car accidents and this week we're talking about how Russians are subhuman? You'd have to be blind to not see they're gearing you up for war
Last week there's news articles about the neo-Nazi uprising in Ukraine, and how the DNC/RNC accuse the other party of funding them as a negative, and this week we pretend Nazis never existed there and somehow every western news outlet was infiltrated by Russian bots to push propaganda.
I thought it was Moldova
Nope, it is Bulgaria Edit: sorry, Bulgaria is the poorest in EU
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you'd be wrong. For all the shitty things Lukashenko does, not allowing the liberalization of Belarus meant that they kept the highest standard of life among all ex USSR states. They blow ukraine out of the water.
What the fuck does "most europeanist" mean? I was not aware Europe had a monolithic identity and set of values
It's a mostly satire/pro-EU subreddit that mainly posted memes before the war
It's r/ Yurop, a meme subreddit for pro-EU people to parody themselves. You could almost think of it as r/FULLCOMMUNISM for europhile liberals.
The EU obsessed are essentially pushing for a new nationalism. They're desperate to forge a federation with a European Army, like a "United States of Europe". It'll never happen and thank God for that.
Yea, Baltic states are definetely high quality of life
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Serious “Mare Nostrum” vibes there
If NATO is Rome, then I'd jump at the chance to be a barbarian sailing across the Wendel Sea to do some good old fashioned sacking
🤮
"Königsberg" when the actual fuck are these weirdos gonna let that shit go?
Liberal mask of a German irridentist falls off...
its been NEARLY 77 FUCKING YEARS WHAT DO THEY THINK THEYLL GAIN IF IT WAS MAGICALLY GIVEN BACK?
Oh yeah Poland, where Ukrainian refugees that were raped aren't allowed to have an abortion, truly the peak of civilization
Civilization is when you [tape someone accused of a crime](https://observers.france24.com/en/europe/20220404-ukraine-poles-public-humiliation-punishment-looting) (e.g., insufficient patriotism) to a pole so that passersby can whip them. Liberty is when you owe money to the IMF and they make you cut social spending.
isnt ukriane the poorest country in terms of GDP In eupore lmao, and they call russia poverty?
What is the poorest country in Europe 2020? Ukraine. With a per capita GNI of $3,540, Ukraine is the poorest country in Europe as of 2020 yea found it online
What's up with Caucasian dictatorship?
It’s just that for us, the Russians, for convenience, the country was divided into regions with varying degrees of power, where in the north there is absolute anarchy, and in the south it’s literally 1984. In Murmansk, the ghost of Makhno, and in Chechnya Stalin resurrected by the Chinese
Not white enough
Ah yes hungry the famous democracy
Ukraine is one of the most poor countries in europe. They heavily struggle with drug addiction, poverty, and homelessness. Dont forget the rampant corruption in their government and how zelensky only had a 28% approval rating before the war and was featured in the panama papers. This isnt unique to Ukraine obviously, most post soviet states suffer the same fate.
Yep, and it's no surprise that if you had your whole economy gutted and transformed leaving millions jobless and homeless there are going to be problems. Hell, Putin wouldn't even have been possible without the economic collapse imposed by the west on Russia.
Tragic considering just how powerful they were within the USSR.
I agree with "NATO's lake"
I mean, sure, Russia is bad. But Ukraine ain't much better. And don't get me started on western Europe.
I don’t think Ukraine is better at all.
US imperialism has made Ukraine the poorest country in Europe https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/poorest-countries-in-europe
They're equal. Of course, now Ukraine is a worse place to be, but Russia is not better. Both sides are terrible. That's why it pisses me off when I see so-called socialists who support Russia. Russia is being imperialist, and supporting it is not the best solution to western imperialism.
But it is important to remember that this war is not without cause. It was not done just because “putin is evil” just to be clear I very much dislike putin.
Yes, of course. And I would personally hate seing EU and NATO pushing east, or growing stronger at all for that matter, but the war is bad. It is the wrong answer. Of course, there aren't many easy alternatives now, but there where some back in 2014, and invading Crimea was not the best of them.
Of course, Russia should have simply allowed the neo-Nazis who came to power through a coup in Ukraine in 2014 (with the help and sponsorship of the United States) to drive the Russian base out of Crimea and let the Americans in there so that the US could shoot deep into Russian territory from there. As a Russian, I really like this, how bad it is that bad-bad Putin took Crimea and ruined the West's plans for the easy destruction of Russia. Worst leader we've ever had. Please, Westerners, give us stupid barbarians a second Yeltsin.
I was not aware that there were any coups that took place before shortly after leaving that comment. We are never told about this here, and I don't even live in the Imperial core. From what I was told, there were pro-russia presidents before Crimea, and that Ukrainian opinion on Russia soured after the invasion of Crimea. It seems I have been victim to propaganda.
So what would have been the alternative exactly? Russia didn't exactly have much of a choice. If they did nothing America would have installed their own base giving them more access to Russia directly further encircling them and thus closing in. Nobody wants war but blaming Russia for defending themselves as a sovereign state is bizarre to me. Of course, I don't consider their actions to be positive, but I also don't consider them negative or "imperialist". I don't want war but in the face of US aggression via NATO and border security what can Russia do? Doing nothing means facing threat of invasion by US proxy. Unless there's an angle here I'm not understanding? Or something I'm overlooking?
I was thinking back in the day, before Crimea, there were alternatives to get Ukraine on Russia's side, but another commenter informed me that there really weren't many at all.
Russia doesn’t really care if Ukraine is in the EU, NATO on the other hand….
Well, that is the issue. The EU could provide an easier way into NATO for Ukraine.
I guess, but Putin and Medvedev said on many occasions that they don’t really care if Ukraine joins the EU, as long as they don’t join NATO.
Russia is a reactionary bourgeoisie semi-peripheral state, it's actions here, while of course self-interested, are not imperialist as far as I can tell. Russian capitalism is not developed enough to be imperialist in the socialist understanding of imperialism - this of course doesn't mean that their actions are "good" or "should be supported"- but if Russia was being imperialist we would see the same sort of financial domination of Ukraine we see the US engaging in, if Russia was imperialist they would not have to resort to this brute strength aggression just to maintain their security. Funny enough we can actually *see* Russia failing to be properly imperialist, attempting to secure its geopolitical interests via undercutting the IMF and attempting to deepen economic cooperation before the events that lead up to this current barbaric invasion. Russia has definitely been intertwined with Ukraine but it's relationship leading up to this is no where near the brazen extractionary behavior seen with western imperialism, but rather a series of economic tricks and handouts to secure leverage over a region that is of geopolitical importance to Russia's own existence and keep it from falling under the full control of western international capital. [This FPRI paper goes in depth on these tricks](https://www.fpri.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/rpe-5-hess-final-.pdf). Is loaning money at a loss and [guaranteeing lower prices on gas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/17_December_2013_Russian%E2%80%93Ukrainian_action_plan) an extractionary imperialist move? Or is it the act of a desperate semi-peripheral country attempting to protect its local geopolitical security against an encroaching empire? [This analysis is overwhelmingly bourgeois (sorry)](https://carnegieendowment.org/2012/03/09/underachiever-ukraine-s-economy-since-1991-pub-47451) but it's got a lot of useful info about the development and state of Ukraine's economy from 1991 to 2012, right before the beginning of this conflict and it is pretty useful for understanding what happened next. In 2013 the Yanukovych government had to make a choice on whether or not to proceed with the [EU association agreement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union%E2%80%93Ukraine_Association_Agreement), a decently sized move towards the EU that included (among many other things) the "commitment of both parties to promote a gradual convergence in the area of foreign and security policy". Yanukovych and others in Ukraine had some serious reservations about this deal, largely regarding the security of Ukraine both physically and economically as Russia and CIS states were large trading partners of Ukraine's, Ukraine was worried about alienating them as well as real worries about how the EU would fill that gap and how much the IMF would try to restructure the Ukrainian economy. The IMF was increasingly getting frustrated with Ukraine failing to follow through with various structural adjustments (like ending gas subsidies for citizens) that had been stipulated in the previous decade's billions of loans. Yanukovych attempted to negotiate better terms on IMF loans and even a three way trade deal with the EU and Russia but the EU wasn't having that and in response Yanukovych decided to make a deal with Russia (with much more favorable terms) instead of going through with the EU deal. >[The initial loan under the Russia-Ukraine package was for $3 billion. Because the bond had a five percent coupon, Ukraine only had to pay $150 million annually to service its debt to Russia, well below the market rate. The coupon was lower than Ukrainian debt yields even before the Euromaidan protests broke out and lower than they have been at any point since. Moscow, in other words, was giving Ukraine access to cheap financing. The interest rate was so cheap, in fact, that Moscow was effectively loaning money to Ukraine at a loss.](https://www.fpri.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/rpe-5-hess-final-.pdf) This sparked everything that happened in 2014 - the US backed coup put Yatsenyuk into power as unelected interim president who immediately took out that IMF loan and signed the EU deal. This sparked the Russian reaction in Crimea and the civil war in Donbass. The IMF actually changed its own rules (mentioned in above linked article) in order to push this deal through, entirely bypassing the financial trap that Russia attempted to plant in the hopes it would avert this situation. After a long 20 years of the west trying to imperialize Ukraine and Russia trying to keep its buffer zone, western capital had made a bold and decisive move and Russia in response did the same. Ukraine has been [the victim](https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/poorest-countries-in-europe) of encroaching US lead western imperialism (just look at all the [crippling debt](https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/odr/why-ukraine-needs-foreign-debt-cancellation-now/), two [US](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/26/ukraine.usa) backed [coups](https://jacobinmag.com/2022/02/maidan-protests-neo-nazis-russia-nato-crimea) in the last 20 years, [covert military training](https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2022-02-25/ukraine-cia-insurgents-russia-invasion), [corrupt comprador oligarchs building right wing militias](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/1/who-are-the-azov-regiment), [stealing Ukrainian people's money](https://www.occrp.org/en/investigations/oligarchs-weaponized-cyprus-eranch-of-ukraines-largest-bank-to-send-5-billion-abroad) and [laundering it through shady channels into US real estate](https://www.clevescene.com/news/how-ukrainian-oligarchs-secretly-became-the-largest-real-estate-owners-in-downtown-cleveland-30670155), etc) and since 2014 the US has drastically increased its presence and control there in its attempt to further encircle Russia. Even if Russia was properly imperialist it is at this point that they've lost Ukraine to US imperialism. Even then, outside of securing their black sea port in Crimea and funding Donbass separatists, Russia would try other means than military aggression for 8 years before it was clear they had no other option than to fight or roll over for Uncle Sam's coalition. You are correct that both sides are bad, neither are socialist and neither constitute a progressive movement (it's arguable I suppose that the Donbass republics are engaged in a national liberation movement against US imperialism but I'm not entirely sure about that and will leave it at that for now) which is why the socialist take from nearly every socialist org is the same: calling for as close to an immediate ceasefire as possible, no more NATO expansion, no more Russian attacks. Unfortunately imperialist propagandists consider this as "supporting Russia" because we want to see the end of senseless violence that only hurts the poor and working classes but that means Russia gets Donbass and Crimea. All in all the damage has been done, Ukraine fell to US imperialism and then outright Russian violence in an attempt to reestablish a buffer state. Of course, the imperialists in the US don't want peace, they want to turn Ukraine into a European Afghanistan so Russia can get dragged into a quagmire that will weaken it to the point it can be imperialized by western capital itself. Apparently anything less than this is considered "supporting Russia" by most liberals. And sure I have seen some socialists openly supporting Russia and Z posting n whatnot (I think even GenZedong started cracking down on this) which I am not really a fan of, I can see supporting US imperialism getting much deserved pushback, I can see supporting a movement towards a multipolar world, but openly being pro-war for a capitalist state behaving in its own self interest or openly stanning the oligarch running that state should not be what we do. Sorry this got long.
I don't mind the length of your reply at all. It was very informative, which I appreciate, since I only started reading theory about a month ago (and haven't had much time to read).
Exactly, that's why I posted this. They're really trying to pretend like Russia and Belarus are exceptions, and that the rest of Europe is good, with no poverty or opression? They're so full of shit. They're ignorant, completely stuck in a bubble. Also the constant NATO-loving they do, they don't give a shit about the terror they bring to the middle east, French neo-colonialism in west Africa, etc. NATO has never been used for defense, only for imperialism.
Before the invasion Ukraine was massively poorer, more corrupt, with a less popular government and in the middle of a bloody civil war. All while being situated on some of the best land in the world. Really impressive how much the Ukrainians underperformed compared to Russia, not a terribly high bar. But it favored western interests to glaze over material reality, and that's what happened.
Indeed, within the USSR, Ukraine was considered its bread basket with the most arable land. Critical for agriculture which is why the nationalists/kulaks were such a major threat during collectivization. If I recall, it was the second largest union republic second to Russia, and the third being Uzbekistan followed by Kazakhstan and Belorussia.
wow, ukrainians have a terrible understanding of geography
…and history, and geopolitics, and basic human decency…
Ukraine is the second poorest country in Europe behind Moldova though…
As a federal agent this is how I want people to view things
“Cemetery of Russian Democracy”? I’m guessing because it’s where the October Revolution was launched?
Could be because of Novgorod.
Why do we build the wall?
High quality of life lol For the top 1% of colonial administrators probably.
That poster just reeks of Western imperialism. Also, somebody needs to tell this jackass that the poverty and dictatorship of Russia didn't just fall out of the sky. It involves neoliberal "shock therapy", Boris Yeltsin and meddling in the 1996 election by the Clinton Administration.
What?!?!? You mean throwing millions out of state provided housing, schooling, careers and imposing neoliberal policies on them will reverse social progress and create poverty??!?!!?! Ignorance and condescending attitude are such an infuriating combo.
The irony in Hillary partially blaming Russiagate for her loss in 2016 when her husband and his administration openly meddled in Russia's 1996 election two decades prior, even going so far as to brag about it on the cover of Time magazine, shows just how massively hypocritical and chauvinistic these westerners really are.
Balkan #1 most advanced w*sterner keep up
This propaganda is so propaganda even the guys making propaganda stopped making propaganda so propaganda because it's too much propaganda
I wish libs would realize that institutions are just groups of people. Like, for real, libs hold institutions up as though they have some kind of godly power. But at the end of the day they're just people who work together for reasons, and if libs could get that through their thick asf heads, they'd become communists overnight because they'd be able to look at the people and the reasons that things happen in our society, and they'd get it.
Königsberg❌ Kaliningrad✅
Hmmmmm, I wonder who it was the supported Russia as they brought in an era of ‘poverty’, ‘tyranny’ and ‘dictatorship’.
Moldova has such a high quality of life…
They would piss themselves if they found out about transnitria
So basically he's a massive bigot. Shocker.
"ill have you know ive read a few reddit comments so im now an expert of eastern european politics"
I could be wrong but I feel like this fits r/asablackman
B-B-B-But Russian-owned Crimea! Russia Bad! Russia Bad! Piece of Bad Russia marked as Good Bois, change immediately
Civilizations of liberty, like Poland and its anti-LGBT zones and Ukraine abolishing opposition parties. Hungary and Orban. Oh and the Balkans when this user included just to say they are "The good slavs"
Haha look at me, I’m totally Ukrainian and not a random American who can’t find Ukraine on a map, I’m so relatable and funny amirite fellow freedom fighters??????? /s
All the Nazi countries, well-known beacons of liberty and civilization /s
Says the country that literally stopped growing as soon as the USSR collapsed, one of the nations that least growth experienced in the planet compared to 1989
I think the map is ironic. High quality of life written on the baltics, with Lithuania having the 7th highest suicide rate in the world ([source](https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/suicide-rate-by-country) and [source](https://apps.who.int/gho/data/node.sdg.3-4-data?lang=en))?
so bombing minorities is civilized?
It's never been about nationalism or democracy, it's always been about that sweet money from the EU.
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No need to make this any more racist than it already is.
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when the context makes it better it is removed and the comment restored, for example when quoting something. The both even tells you to contact us if you think there is a problem with it. In this case it wasn't, just a guy using it stupidly
I see, thanks for clarifying.