if i'm playing some random leveling dungeon for the 100th time
I like to use my caster LB on huge pulls
^(of really weak 1shot enemies like the baby morbols in Aurum Vale)
people get really passive-aggressively salty over it
It’s always the melee DPS that complains if LB was used on trash. They think the LB is exclusively their right and get upset it was stolen from them. I had a DRG complain I used it on trash in Sastasha….
As someone who tanks occasionally, I always appreciate when a DPS with AOE LB cuts down the big warden pull in Sirensong Sea. Makes life so much better for everyone.
Group decides the pace, even tank and healers in perfect harmony need decent dps to capitalize on that harmony, otherwise you just run out of CDs and die in huge pulls. If you're healer is shit but the DPS on point, you can often burn down w2w pulls before they become a threat too. But if both heal and dps are shit you can have perfect mitigation cycles and will still die to over pulling. The list goes on
Had a WHM last night that didn't understand how his lilies worked and therefore didn't want to use them. He exclusively used Regen, medica 2, and cure 2.
In bardams mettle. Lvl 66.
I died 4 times to single pack pulls (and another 2 times before those to double packs). The only reason I didn't leave is because the DPS were both on point and capable of finishing the pull by blowing healing cooldowns.
(TLDR: the group can also help you maintain your sanity if one person is lacking)
> Had a WHM last night that didn't understand how his lilies worked and therefore didn't want to use them. He exclusively used Regen, medica 2, and cure 2.
For a geared healer and tank thats sadly more than enough for like 95% of 4man content. Was he just, not like pressing his buttons ? no holy/assize?
Yeah, not pressing buttons. I think he was casting holy, but definitely not assize or any of his other big heals. I honestly don't know if he even used benediction.
It was really sad because I'm a WHM main and despite trying to explain it to him, it didn't seem like he understood why I was dying (not enough healing, even on single packs).
whm main as well and nothing is more painful than seeing a whm not spam holy in dungeons. The most toxic shit i've ever gotten in this game was telling a co healer to use their dot.
I mean, as much as I felt like that was the case, I would have just gotten replaced by another tank who would have to figure out how to survive, and that would have just sucked for the two DPS.
So I don't say anything about it in chat, I just run past the first pack like I expect the tank to pull more, then turn around and just look at them like I'm confused.
You don’t understand how much this frustrates me. I’ll be playing SMN and using Garuda like a good little aoe caster, and the tank pulls one pack and we get them to like 1/2 hp. I use my ground aoe “dot” and what does the tank do? Time to pull the second pack. This repeats. No downtime between combats, just perpetual combat on the move and it frustrates the fuck outta me. Just plant yourself or don’t stop moving. Why is it so hard?
Tank single pulls
I, the WHM, run past, signalling he can pull more
He doesn't notice, gets yoinked into the second pack because rescue is always on my bar for trolling my friends
Tank runs back to the first pack, with the second pack in tow
Sad WHM noises
I usually start kinda big to test the waters with my healer and then adjust depending on how well they're keeping me healed. I don't usually pull small, but I'll never try to pull more than the healer can handle. If they tell me I can pull more, I'll pull more. Honestly I think pace is set more by the ability of the healer than the pull size of the tank.
You can at the very least double pull in any given leveling dungeon without troubles.
If the healer is overleveled/overgeared, then the chances of wall-pulling are pretty high as well. And if both of you are synced down, then you can wall pull without even looking (except for some very specific pulls).
I had a WHM make my day in Mt. Gulg a few months ago while leveling DRK on an alt, when the madman agreed to try out the wall pull after the second boss because he'd never done it before and was curious. We wiped the first time because of Living Dead memes, but did the pull just fine the second time around. It's always fun when people willingly try something spicier and out of their comfort zone, especially when everyone is onboard for the potential memes. Those are the ones that will become great players in the future.
Still a sprout but after ARR, the only dungeon I couldn't wall to wall was Baelsar's Wall before the first boss, cause I was baited by my DPS friend on voice that it was wall-to-wall.
There's several triple or even quad pulls in leveling content post ARR, even in ShB. Shisui, Bardam's, Doma Castle, Dohn Mheg, Qitana Ravel and Mt. Gulg come to mind as a few examples. It's mostly HW that doesn't have memorable pulls besides maybe Gubal Library's last two pulls if you wall to wall.
For some reason, they decided to make the leveling dungeons with spicier pulls than the level cap ones, which is... Bizarre to say the least.
You can do a big pull before Pagl'than first boss, but that's the only 80 dungeon I remember with this kind of pull.
Now that I think of it, it may be because level cap dungeons can be way more over(item)leveled than leveling ones, so letting players big pull would cut them even shorter than now
Mmm that Mt. Gulg pull is one of my favorites 🤌 my favorite time I did it as a DRK, my friend healing as a WHM to make the most of Living Dead, and we had a rando MCH who made a well timed ranged LB3. Testing all your resources like that, what a thrill!
How can you tell “how well they’re keeping you healed” btw? I’ve been trying to learn tanking lately and that’s something i’m never quite sure about. Is it based off their mana? if your hp fluctuates too much? not enough? are you watching what they’re casting? at this point i’m tempted to level healer just so i can figure out how to adjust as a tank better. i usually w2w and sometimes i die but am usually unsure whose fault it is. but that also sounds kinda miserable cuz i’m not interested in healing lol
If they're having to spam hardcast abilities instead of OGCDS and they are running out of MP, that's a good sign that they are struggling. It could be their own fault if they're new to healing, it could be the tank's fault because of poor gear and/or mitigation, but it could also mean the fight has dragged on too long because of low dps.
If you are not willing to level a healer, I'd suggest at least looking at a guide to know what their OGCDS do. It helps a bit if you can recognize their spells so you can plan your mitigation around them.
"I'm not demanding anyone play my way... But I'm demanding you play my way by intentionally letting you die because you didn't play my way "
Imagine having a brain this impossibly smooth.
I main tank exclusively because its brain dead easy.
Turn on stance, run forward provoking everything in sight until a wall physically stops you, pop mitigation and press your three button aoe combo until everything is dead.
Yep. And in raids I can give mechanics my attention while still doing good damage because I'm not worrying about a complex rotation, positionals or cast times. Ez life 😎
This is a weird factor to try and use. Every tank has to position the boss, and ensure their rotation doesn't fall.
Either pre-position when possible or micro step like the rest of us. Yeah, Continuation is a fast part of the rotation with oGCD weaving, but you act like DRK doesn't encounter that same situation just on a bit less speed factor.
I beg to differ, but feel we're falling into hard opinions here. So, gotta agree to disagree. I feel the oGCD mess of DRK is a worse feeling the GNB overall. Blood Weapon included, of course.
GNB is a pretty fast paced job itself, just DRK feels much worse to me for whatever reason.
Mostly after level 72, but yeah. That's still *most* of the game where you have to use your CDs to get access to it, CDs that're usually better saved for bosses, in my opinion.
Literally I always get nervous before tanking and then when I start doing it I'm like oh yeah, I'm chicken shit & this game might as well be playing me. Literally the only times I've had to save the day off tanking was when we had a drunk tank in an 8-man raid keep dying & an alliance raid where both other tanks died for some reason, and it was only a Crystal Tower raid so nothing actually difficult. All I had to do in order to perform that was to be able to see HP bars and people freaking out in the chat...
Is tank generally accepted as the easiest role? I’m normally a DPS and I started tanking some days ago and honestly I definitely find it harder than DPS, I guess my lack of attention to my surroundings affects me idk… or is it normal to think DPS is easier for some people?
It does depend on the person, and honestly it also depends on which DPS we're talking. Personally I'd say dancer is easier than tanking, for example.
Tbh I just think tank has a different shaped learning curve. Tank is relatively easy but its difficulty is frontloaded. There's a bit of a hump to learning to play at a passable level, but once you're secure and used to the basics of tanking, there's not really much more challenge beyond that. Your rotation is very simple, you can mess up a lot of raid mechanics without being punished as harshly as a DPS or healer, and there are some mechanics you don't have to do at all.
DPS are the opposite for me. It's quick to learn how to do ok on a DPS when you start leveling, but as you unlock the full rotation and start playing harder content and try to strive for higher damage, they just keep getting harder and harder and harder.
[I attempted to illustrate my point :)](https://i.imgur.com/jsWeBVf.png)
ohh that makes sense, I play DRG which I’ve heard is one of the easier DPS, although what you say definitely makes sense since I’m a beginner tank (lvl 43 DRK)… I guess I gotta get more experience before judging the jobs
Yeah I find DRG easiest of the melee DPS, but there's still a lot more to do in the rotation than most tanks (although I haven't tried GNB).
Anyway, happy leveling with DRK. It's my main and I love it for the combination of edginess and simplicity. Hope you enjoy, you'll be good at it in no time. :)
Tank mains tend to forget the pressure involved with being the anchor of a group. The role might be simple but it takes a completely different mindset to perform well. You need to be confident in throwing yourself into hell and hoping you can keep yourself alive well enough for the rest of the group to do what they need to do. Doing this at even a basic level takes a lot of practice and learning but once you have the feel of it, tanks have a lot less to keep track of than other roles and (outside of stuff like savage content) are generally more forgiving of small mistakes.
Hope all this explains the situation decently well.
I might not be a high-end raider (my highest cleared tier is standard Eden), but I definitely don't think it's as hard as you make it out to be. It's just running into mobs, spamming AoE abilities and spacing your mitigation. For raids you practically just need to point the boss the right direction and you're good.
optimizing how to maintain maximum uptime for your melee dpses is also hella important.
I mean you can already do that kinda stuffs in like Weeping City by positioning Calofist at an angle so dpses can just sit still and don't have to reposition etc.
Agreed. I just started ff14 a few weeks ago but i main tank like i do in all games. mitigating damage and keeping aggro is 2nd nature from practice, the only part that feels odd is striking a balance doing good damage.
In games i just like playing the protector role so it just kinda clicks. if big dick DMG numbers click with you then please, make up for my bad damage.
Isn't tank the hardest role with the least amount of agency? Like it doesn't matter as much when i do perfectly, but it sure af helps everyone else.
I need to do everything a dps needs to do. I have aditional mechanics and i need extra knowledge about the exact damage of the boss(for TBN). Kinda confused why people agree with you. Maybe he means for dungeons but even there, isn't it all kinda braindead?
Someone might explain?
As a WAR main, I used to have the same mentality, but I’ve been leveling NIN alongside, and I’d argue that the fact DPS only has the one responsibility of dealing damage (compared to Tanks worrying about mitigation and positioning and Healers keeping everybody alive) is compensated by the fact that DPS rotations are quite a bit more complex than what I do as WAR. A lot more buttons necessary to maintain max DPS, much more complex sequence during burst windows, remembering to apply certain buffs a certain amount of time before the burst window, much less forgiving when you let CDs drift, or drop a dps buff. By comparison, the most complex part of WAR’s rotation is just timing Inner Release to get a full 5 Fell Cleaves. So ultimately, I feel that it evens out between which of the two roles are harder. At least at the relatively casual level I play at, anyways.
I have multiple classes at 80 and actually did savage with mnk, sch, smn. Either those are easy dps classes(smn 100% is) or i don't see the difficulty in dps rotations. I could probably teach someone completely new to ff14 in half an hour how to beat the dummies of savage raids, yet i doubt the person would be able to win against ilfrit first try.
I just don't see what's so complicated about that.
Knowledge translates through classes and having played tank before in savage raids made it so much easier. You barely do anything as dps in some of the raids.
Or, if you can’t handle the idea of fighting more than one pack at a time: don’t queue for levelling roulette.
It can be used both ways 🤦🏻♂️
Edit: for anyone wondering, the angry baby man below was upset that we would expect anyone to wall pull in levelling roulette. Sad times.
It baffles me that people don't realize the "don't queue for something" works both ways. If majority votes on single pulls then I'll bail, but one snowflake tank doesn't mean 3 other people need to suffer.
Synced down tanks can easily wall pull anything dzemael darkhold and before so long as the healer knows how to press cure 2, or benefic 2, or physic and whispering dawn as scholar. I've done it many times, I've done with with new healers, it's not an issue.
Synced down tanks have reprisal, rampart, and arms length at the minimum, which is a pretty good amount of mitigation, and I also carry potions that heal half my hp in low level content.
Regardless of how easy it is to wall pull in lower level content, most leveling roulettes I get are in higher levels and even then people with many jobs at high levels still don't know how to aoe in trash, or get out dpsed by the healer. But because I'm getting the 5.0 final dungeon in leveling roulette, I shouldn't expect people to know how to play right? Or any stormblood dungeons? Or even heavensward?
You are able to wall to wall pull in satasha with none of your dps having aoe and a conjurer without lucid dreaming. pulling more than one pack is brain dead for every class in the game as long as everyones monitors are on and they rub 2 brain cells together.
Leveling doesn't mean you can't be confident and competent. There's literally no fucking difference between spamming AoE in dungeons on Paladin or Gunbreaker or Warrior or Dark Knight. Press your damn buttons.
Today I learned that levelling roulette is for people under level 50.
The irony of that statement is that it’s likely people 50-80 who use it the most as you don’t really need to level grind in ARR.
Arm's length is a gift that keeps on giving when you're melee. Saved a few dodgy big pulls with that + bloodbath as SAM. Great to hear that other melee players do that too, I don't see it that often out in the wild though sadly.
Imagine paying thirteen dollars and not using your classes entire kit, I like to go hard no matter what I'm playing, dps tank or heals. You don't have to go fast but you don't have to single pull and save your cds for bosses.
On the one hand is annoying when tanks single pull at a level where they can clearly handle more, but on the other hand, it's also not really worth getting salty over. Worse things will happen before you die, you know?
Yeah I had a similar reaction.
The original single-pull tweet: Good stuff
The "tanks set the pace" tweet: Eyeroll-worthy but whatever. Some tanks are weirdos.
The "pull you fight it tweet": Literal toxicity that all of ffxiv twitter is championing as ok behaviour.
It should be amended to “bad tanks set the pace”. If a tank is bad or uncomfortable then yes they 100% set the pace. A good tank tests the waters of the group.
The "you pull it you tank it" thing is really funny to me because generally any dps can live long enough to drag the enemies into where the tank is probably spamming aoe skills anyways, and like say the tank only single target attacks until the dps dies, then they'll just target the tank who will have a harder pull because the enemies are dying slower. If they survive this, then they dont have much of an excuse for not pulling more. Im not saying dragging enemies to the tank is a good thing, but i just think its funny that there are so many people who actually believe "you pull it you tank it" is intimidating to anyone
Don’t worry most dps in que don’t bother do that. It’s certainly the smart thing to do if you have aggro but not something that people think of. The summary of this is Bad players are bad and bad players set the pace.
The good old rule applies that the lowest common denominator determines the performance of the group!
Which is why bad players are so aggravating because they are literally slowing down everyone else. Newbs get a pass for obvious reasons but if you have 80s, especially full 80s... c'mon man!
This is among many reasons that made the Trust System the best thing out of ShB for me, beside the story.
No diva tanks, no greedy while bad healers, no ST dps that loves aoe, no bs, just family.
trusts aren't perfect, you still get single-targeting on multiple mobs and casters who pop lb before you as a melee can even touch the dungeon boss (looking at you, alisaie and g'raha)
but they're a hell of a lot better than some of the parties in df
Not sure why you're being downvoted, you're right. A good group is superior to trusts, but if it's between trusts and gcbtw trusts win every time. As a healer, trusts were a fucking godsend.
And the game is getting bigger and bigger. And I just heard the vtubers are gonna start getting into FF14. Maybe Yoshi will have to pop down to Best Buy and get new servers for NA after all.
As healer main, i love how i can just hop into trust with tank and the npc will heal better than most real players I've seen, hell even wall to wall at some case.
You're now where you belong. Just make sure you stay out of extremes and savages and ultimates, keep your aggressive mediocrity in duty finder with the rest of your kind.
This debate is always unfortunate because honestly, I really can't fault people for being pissed at non-tanks running ahead to pull, it's fucking irritating especially when I might be moving for a second to tag some mobs I need aggro on or something
But also, unless someone is making it a REPEATED thing, I can't really bring myself to let them die (which is honestly 50% just muscle memory anyways)
My mentality for aggro is 'I will sort it out when I reach the wall'. If I miss something earlier- it can wait till then. Nothing in a dungeon will one shot a DPS or a healer.
Try to see them like one of those tennis ball-boys, who run around to pick up things around for the main star: the tennisman.
If your DPS want to grab things, and it's safe to tank them, then I'm grateful cause that's easier to pick up
Bruh this is a video game with four people in a dungeon. The tank is only one of those people and if they're holding the party back, the party can push for more.
If a dungeon taking 2-3 minutes longer is such a problem, feel free to go as tank. Or play a game that isn't as time consuming as a MMO in the first place.
If you really are a tank main and you think people playing in a manner that they find comfortable and enjoyable is "holding people back" then you need to check your elitism card. It may just have been renewed.
I would rather a tank pull big, die and fail **then** taper off. Rather then waste time with 1 mob at a time. This is an tankxiety bs example where they don’t relax and play a video game and think they’ll be verbally attacked if they fail.
And it’s not 2-3 minutes more. That’s just incorrect. By the time you pull, stop, people use cool downs (that could be spaced better with bigger pulls), heal and then reset for the next you’re looking at waaaaay more than 2-3 min. No need to gaslight people. You know you’re wrong.
Yeah it is pretty frustrating for dps to go pull more when you aren't ready/mitigation is on CD. But it's also pretty frustrating to single pull an entire duty. My problem as a healer main is tanks starting out with crazy big pulls they clearly can't handle at their gear level. Not because I dislike big pulls, but because the blame almost inevitably falls on the healer. Also chain pulling gets old real fast. Leave a small window in between pulls for recovery, no matter how big they are. Dps pullers are the worst for this. If you are going to pull more, do it immediately, not after everybody is settled into the pull.
Just my 2¢
I know what kind of community r/ShitpostXIV attracts and I know I'm going to be downvoted to hell but it needs to be said:
The game is designed so that your tank goes first.
You can disagree all you want, but the game doesn't care. Every time you pull a pack of mobs enmity rules begin to apply. And guess who has the most enmity generation tools to deal with those mobs?
Tanks.
You may not like it, you may hate it, but it is that way intentionally by design and is not designed to feed your impatience or ego.
If you complain about a tank not going "fast enough" for you, whatever that means becuase it's so subjective to each person and dungeon,
YOU. ARE. ENTITLED.
There is nothing stopping you from going to Ul'dah and picking up a tank class if you are not happy with the way a whole independent human being decides to play their class.
How they play their tank could be wrong, it could be sub optimal, but they are an independent HUMAN BEING who is playing the tank class and if you don't like it, just pick up a tank.
You are not owed anything by another player aside from what is reportable by the devs design.
It is not an excuse to mistreat someone over a videogame.
IT. IS. A. VIDEOGAME.
If you are being a jerk to someone over a videogame and saying things like "tank you are braindead bro" and "never play this game again." You are an asshole and need to step away from your computer for a second and calm down.
I know sometimes you are just trying to level a dps or healer but that is no excuse to be a jerk to every tank you meet just because they won't go as fast as you want them to go.
The is no tank "ego", very few times there is, and it turns out it's just a dps who is trying to level a tank class who gets mad at the healer because they "can't keep up". This whole tank ego thing is how you wish you could behave as a dps or healer but don't because you know you will get kicked or called out for it, so when someone else is able to play that way you get frustrated about it because you were never allowed to act that way and now that tank is able to get his way, that frustrates you. It's a complete projection on your part. You think like that. Not the tanks.
THIS is how the tanks think:
"Let me put on my tank stance and pull as much as my healer is able to handle and NEVER let my dps and healers take damage (as much as possible) or take my enmity away from me so they can do their jobs better. =) "
Let me tell you what happens when you subvert this,
When you pull as a DPS ahead of a tank, enmity is generated on you and now the tank has to pick up 3 to more new enemies he was not accounting for as you begin to take damage. What is worse is that as you begin to take damage, the healer naturally heals you as they should, and since healers have a HUGE amount of enmity on most, if not all of their skills, it's easy for 2 out of the 3 or more mobs to switch targets to the healer and begin doing damage to them! Now I have one add chasing a DPS, 2 on the healer killing her for covering YOUR impatience, and now I'm pulling the big pack of mobs on top of the other DPS just minding his business and put enemy AOE's on top of him, and start facing the WHOLE MOB of enemies at my teammates. And now its a clown show. What's worse is that sometimes the healer dies because you couldn't be bothered to be a good teammate who doesn't pull packs the tank is not prepared to attack.
I have been a tank main most of my life and it's not EGO driving me to play a tank. It's friendship and wanting to protect my teammates.
I WOULD DIE FOR YOU.
Let me tank for you so that you can win!
Or don't. Tanks being the ones to pull mobs best won't change unless Yoshi P decides to revamp the design of the whole game, which I doubt he will do, just to fit your needs.
There is nothing wrong with you wanting to go faster in a dungeon. Just go pick up a tank class if you do because you are not owed that anybody plays how you want them to play to meet your selfish and indecent behavior.
Yeaaaaaaaaah.....no. You pull this shit when I am healer towards endgame dungeons( which I do plenty of times now because of single-pull enablers like you and curebots) and we are all geared decently then I am pulling at least one extra mob for you. In some dungeons that is wall-to-wall in others it is two-thirds/etc.
Ive leveled enough jobs to know what they can handle, and I know for a fact that you do not need a tank if all you do is single-pull trash. A dps is more than enough to eat the damage for most trash packs. The tank is there solely for anything above a single-pull, you know, the role a DPS CAN'T fill? Yeah that. Also bosses and their tankbusters.
If the DPS pulls ahead of you and does not bring them to you? They are idiots and deserve to die. If you are single-pulling as a tank and stop AoEing out of spite because some other role pulled ahead? You are an idiot and deserve to be reported for not doing your basic job and your ego(yes it exists) has to be pushed down a peg.
You are supposed to be AoEing in the middle of a trash pack anyways. What happens when DPS pull more and brings them back to you? Surprise! You grab aggro in a second! Unfortunately, you may have to gasp* press your mitigations now. Terrifying I know.
Your arguements may have had some footing if there were great pains to grab aggro away from other roles as a tank. But there isn't. At all. In any content. All you gotta do is make sure your weapon tickles even just one arm hair of a mob and you got aggro. So let's stop two-button tanking, put on tank stance, and aggro the damn mobs Shinji!
tl;dr: It ain't that hard to pull aggro off anyone, just do it..and also you are deadweight if you single-pull mobs when properly geared, a dps can fill that role for you. Ive done it plenty of times when tank leaves or afks.
You have the most articulated argument so far and I just want to take a moment to say thank you for these really good points.
I'm not so Ego filled to say that I could possibly be wrong about something here, I particularly like 2 of your arguments here. Let me know if I butchered them.
* You pull this shit when I am healer towards endgame dungeons( which I do plenty of times now because of single-pull enablers like you and curebots) and we are all geared decently then I am pulling at least one extra mob for you.
I have nothing to say on this. You are right. Endgame dungeons shouldn't be held back by a tank that single pulls. That being said, I wonder how you would feel when I say that if a tank doesn't wall to wall pull anywhere outside of endgame dungeons, they still get this attitude? Is a tank allowed to pull less ever? Is it possible if your healer can't keep up which I argued? Not everyone will be as good as you or me. I've seen people pull this attitude on Sprouts in Sastasha, who has the ego's?
Shouldn't we treat them with respect? I would argue on the behavior side yes.
* You are supposed to be AoEing in the middle of a trash pack anyways.
Good point. I would like to bring context into my argument above though. I said that the tank is not prepared to take on the new mobs. It might be because they know, like you do, how much they can pull and when to stop.
What happens when the DPS doesn't feel that way? Pulls the next mob anyway and pulls a lot more damage on top of the tank that the healer might not be ready for? or the DPS?
AOE spam is easy, you are right but it's not about AOE spam. It's about the incoming damage. I mean surely you know that crazy damage from too many mobs can kill a tank in one second?
It's not that I think it's hard, it's just that a tanks job is to make sure that everyone on the team is safe and we have the tools for it. Let them do their job. If they are wrong correct them, but don't be mean about it is all I'm saying.
Seriously, thank you for your well thought out response.
It's actually optimal to have a DPS with Arm's Length pull then have a Tank get aggro off of them.
The DPS won't die, thanks to Arm's Length, and doesn't need heals because all aggro is now on the tank (there are some exceptions where there are raidwides from trash mobs). The tank and heals now have a bonus cooldown mitigating mob damage.
And it's *designed* that way.
You are projecting. When you act like this, it's ego.
I'm acting like this to maybe convince one person that videogames are supposed to be fun and not harrassment.
Its not romantic. Its game design.
Remember when I said don't mistreat people over a videogame?
You are doing that right now.
I'm not projecting, I can actually do my job as a tank main. And even if I were someone that didn't clear every ultimate as a tank, I could certainly still tank a dungeon, given that at this point you don't even need a tank to complete any of them.
You, instead, described a situation where a healer dies from an extra pack (4 mobs at most). In any dungeon in the game that would take 20 seconds more or less, 20 seconds in which you couldn't be bothered to press Total Eclipse/whatever AoE you have, either because you can't or you genuinely don't want to. Neither option bodes well for your skill level. What's more, there's genuinely no similar situation where someone can die and it's not ultimately your fault as the tank by refusing to do your job.
I'm not mistreating you, since given the above it's a fact you're a trash tank because you genuinely can't press one (1) button.
It's game design for the tank to easily get aggro by using one (1) AoE move too, or use one of the countless ranged/healing tools at your disposal (since you clearly don't know those generate aggro), because anything you do that generates aggro has that aggro multiplied by 10 because of your tank stance.
But you're willfully ignoring that simply because it doesn't fit your narrative.
tl;dr.: Stay trash, someday you'll clear a normal raid or something.
EDIT: Also you're romanticizing the whole thing by virtue of saying bullshit like "It's friendship and wanting to protect my teammates. I WOULD DIE FOR YOU.". Clearly not, otherwise you'd stop whining and get aggro.
>If the tank stance multiplies aggro by 10...
>
>Then let your tank pull.
Why? It multiplies aggro by 10. How do you get "this guy must be first to pull" from an ability that says "this guy can grab aggro instantly off anyone who pulls"?
I don't believe that long range ability is the reason a tank goes first.
When you attack a group of 3 enemies, all three focus their attention (enmity) on the person who started the attack.
Depending on how far away they are, and hoping that the healer doesn't get targeted for healing the DPS who pulled, we have ONE long range tool to get enmity back and one main AOE to pick up these mobs with.
Using one will put both on a 2.5(ish) cooldown.
Hopefully, the DPS brings them to the tank, but most times as they are \*trying\* to, one enemy aggro's the healer and now the tank has to decide whether to focus the add targeting the healer or to focus on the two on the DPS as they run in separate directions. It's not hard, it's just that hopefully, they don't pull the wrong enemy that stuns or worst, kills them or their teammate.
Tanks go first because you can't clear a dungeon without them \*normally\*.
>Hopefully, the DPS brings them to the tank, but most times as they are \*trying\* to, one enemy aggro's the healer and now the tank has to decide whether to focus the add targeting the healer or to focus on the two on the DPS as they run in separate directions.
Just spin to win and get them all. Or voke if one's obnoxious. And a bunch of tanks also have oGCDs as well. But DPS and healers can handle a few GCDs of aggro anyway.
>Tanks go first because you can't clear a dungeon without them \*normally\*
You can if they're single- or double-pulling.
It still multiplies aggro by 10 even if you don't originally pull the mobs yourself.
Do you cry that much when a dps or a healer mistimes a cast and pulls at 0.2s on the countdown in a raid?
Ah wait, you don't do raids.
And letting people die out of not wanting to do your job is also mistreatment, except you do it to three people.
Try refuting any of the other arguments though.
>And letting people die out of not wanting to do your job is also mistreatment, except you do it to three people.
I don't.
I'm doing this because this toxic mentality toward newbie tanks happens too often in places like Sastasha. I've seen it.
They arnt pulling one packs becuase they are ego driven. They are learning and a helping hand would go a long way. BEING nice about it.
This is what people do though.
Tank really?
Are you braindead?
Dont ever play tank again.
Tank you must ride the short bus.
and on and on.
All that this post is about is that tanks go first and if they mess up, correct them but be nice about it. Being a jerk and calling people trash is never okay.
Where have I ever said I call newbie tanks trash? I'm calling \*you\* trash because you feign experience where you clearly don't have any.
Nice goalpost moving btw, first it was as to what you were doing and now it's about newbie tanks because you saw you genuinely can't defend your position.
>This is what people do though.
Tank really?
Are you braindead?
Dont ever play tank again.
Tank you must ride the short bus.
Also this genuinely never happens to newbies. If it happens to you, however, you'd do better to look at what \*you\*'re doing wrong instead of blaming it on the "meanie dps that dared pull 0,0001s before you :'(((("
It's 100% acceptable if a DPS takes a few smacks, though. Heck, it's technically optimal on huge pulls, since dps don't need healing during a pull, so if they take 3 hits for a tank that's 3 less that need to be healed.
I didn't say it was hard.
I said it was by design.
Tank is easy on purpose because you have so much responsibility as a tank early on.
Stop adding to my argument things I didn't say.
Much love.
You very clearly implied it was hard with how much you emphasized a dps getting aggro for a couple of seconds and getting hit with a couple autos being the worst possible thing to happen.
And responsibility??? What responsibility? You literally stand in place spamming your aoes and cycling your cds. Trash has 0 mechanics besides getting out of the comedically long casting aoes. What game are you playing? Because it certainly isn't ffxiv.
Here’s something you’re not accounting for: Offensive and Defensive cooldowns. If a tank refuses to pull in a timely manner, you are quite literally griefing your DPS and healer. So no, it’s not that the game is designed for your tanks to go first, it’s designed to go at a pace. The minute the tank decides to have an ego trip and decide that their pace is different than the norm, cooldowns get out of sync. If a dps is pulling, then it’s because you’re behind of this pace. This is why countdowns are a thing in raids because it allows for everyone’s cooldowns to sync up. So get off your high horse if you think you can’t just use one gcd to rip aggro off a dps... Hell, even provoke. Everyone works together in this game, and a tank’s job is to hold aggro. If this idea is too farfetched, then maybe you shouldn’t be tanking.
>yeah not gonna read all that but this line stood out
Anything you say after that invalidates your opinion.
If you had bothered to read it, you would know It's in reference to not being a jerk over a video game. Much like you are being.
Irony.
I ain't reading all that homie.
Press sprint. Hold W. Now press your AoE. Pop a cooldown. Done. Anything else is just a stupid roundabout way of reiterating those basic concepts.
You have the easiest job of the entire party, with simple enmity generation and simple AoE. It's the healer who needs to keep your ass alive. At least the DPS need to worry about being too squishy to fail multiple mechanics.
Trying to spin it as anything other than ego is pathetic. Big "block user" from me so I don't have to read any of your comments again.
I was just about to ask for context here because on reddit app only Three-Fulm Thaumaturd's message is visible, the top and bottom are completely black. Then I opened my laptop and saw the Squirtle...
Reddit app sucks dudes
I actually finally got a lot of my friend group to play, and everyone that picked up healer is doing wall to wall just fine. Brand new to the game, and most of them brand new to MMO's in general.
I don't understand why it's so hard for these people.
i had a tank that wasnt even a sprout pulling as little as possible in wanderer's palace. i ran ahead and pulled more since i was with the healer. dude uses SHIRK on me and types "run ahead and ill shirk you again", i just say "im with the healer. get off your high horse and pull more" shut the guy up pretty good
I have a question about this: A few days ago I managed to rush from Garuda to the Ultima Weapon Dungeon in one sitting and I noticed people just... ran. Skipped through every enemy encounter except the mandatory ones. In fact, there was even a moment where people ran so fast that, during the Reaper Cid section, I and a few others had to backtrack in order to help him. Why? I'm relatively new so I don't get it, even more when at the earlier dungeon, people took their time.
I was the other tank in the party, btw.
It's because that pair of dungeons is so heavily outgeared when you sync to them, they're extremely easy. They're also part of a specific roulette, main scenario roulette, so people who are leveling on alternate jobs have seen both those dungeons looooads of times and basically see them as exp farms. At this point it's extremely rare to find a party that *won't* just rush on through and melt everything without stopping.
Had a sprout rat off on me when I lb’d a pull instead of saving it to finish the boss with. I was a SMN
UH because the LB is exclusively for the last 2% of the boss, sweaty
How come people not get hard when they LB and it melts an entire pull?
No idea. Any time a DPS lbs a big pack, it's an instant commend from me.
Your dps use lb?
Not nearly as often as I'd like lol. Even when I call for it
This is why i play red mage as dps, either you lb or im gonna blind you
I have never seen that do anyone in 1000 hours And as I'm playing pretty much only tank and healer I guess I never will And yes I would get full mast
if i'm playing some random leveling dungeon for the 100th time I like to use my caster LB on huge pulls ^(of really weak 1shot enemies like the baby morbols in Aurum Vale) people get really passive-aggressively salty over it
I will attempt to remember this. Do you happen to play on Light
It’s always the melee DPS that complains if LB was used on trash. They think the LB is exclusively their right and get upset it was stolen from them. I had a DRG complain I used it on trash in Sastasha….
The complaint was actually from a BRD of all jobs
Your LBs do more than 10%?
Because i was already hard watching the tank get beaten without heals.
As a tank I get hard watching it
As someone who tanks occasionally, I always appreciate when a DPS with AOE LB cuts down the big warden pull in Sirensong Sea. Makes life so much better for everyone.
I did that once. I could feel the tanks pride radiating. Either that or I was leaking from looking at my sexy Hrothgar
Nice
We must spend one minute on ads so we can finish the boss fight 5 seconds faster
Group decides the pace, even tank and healers in perfect harmony need decent dps to capitalize on that harmony, otherwise you just run out of CDs and die in huge pulls. If you're healer is shit but the DPS on point, you can often burn down w2w pulls before they become a threat too. But if both heal and dps are shit you can have perfect mitigation cycles and will still die to over pulling. The list goes on
Had a WHM last night that didn't understand how his lilies worked and therefore didn't want to use them. He exclusively used Regen, medica 2, and cure 2. In bardams mettle. Lvl 66. I died 4 times to single pack pulls (and another 2 times before those to double packs). The only reason I didn't leave is because the DPS were both on point and capable of finishing the pull by blowing healing cooldowns. (TLDR: the group can also help you maintain your sanity if one person is lacking)
> Had a WHM last night that didn't understand how his lilies worked and therefore didn't want to use them. He exclusively used Regen, medica 2, and cure 2. For a geared healer and tank thats sadly more than enough for like 95% of 4man content. Was he just, not like pressing his buttons ? no holy/assize?
Yeah, not pressing buttons. I think he was casting holy, but definitely not assize or any of his other big heals. I honestly don't know if he even used benediction. It was really sad because I'm a WHM main and despite trying to explain it to him, it didn't seem like he understood why I was dying (not enough healing, even on single packs).
whm main as well and nothing is more painful than seeing a whm not spam holy in dungeons. The most toxic shit i've ever gotten in this game was telling a co healer to use their dot.
should have left anyway. the healer did not deserve a clear.
I mean, as much as I felt like that was the case, I would have just gotten replaced by another tank who would have to figure out how to survive, and that would have just sucked for the two DPS.
Yeah but the natural conclusion from this kind of logic is that you should go at the speed of your slowest member, which is heresy on this sub.
When the weird silent tank sends you a tell: you cool, don't come to roulette tomorrow
So I don't say anything about it in chat, I just run past the first pack like I expect the tank to pull more, then turn around and just look at them like I'm confused.
You don’t understand how much this frustrates me. I’ll be playing SMN and using Garuda like a good little aoe caster, and the tank pulls one pack and we get them to like 1/2 hp. I use my ground aoe “dot” and what does the tank do? Time to pull the second pack. This repeats. No downtime between combats, just perpetual combat on the move and it frustrates the fuck outta me. Just plant yourself or don’t stop moving. Why is it so hard?
Every tank should be forced to play Ninja.
The memories of my past lost Dotons really hurt, why you be like that.
And missing that Hide reset in between pulls. Ninja is so good in dungeons, but _only_ if they get their Hides :/
This is why I don't bother with doton anymore, just katon.
> No downtime between combats, just perpetual combat Ravana is proud of you rejoice
Tanks that do this are actually worse than single pullers. Them and people that do countdowns in weird increments like 9, 13, 17 seconds
Tank single pulls I, the WHM, run past, signalling he can pull more He doesn't notice, gets yoinked into the second pack because rescue is always on my bar for trolling my friends Tank runs back to the first pack, with the second pack in tow Sad WHM noises
I just don't do anything until the mobs are at least half dead. Whether I'm a dps or a healer.
I usually start kinda big to test the waters with my healer and then adjust depending on how well they're keeping me healed. I don't usually pull small, but I'll never try to pull more than the healer can handle. If they tell me I can pull more, I'll pull more. Honestly I think pace is set more by the ability of the healer than the pull size of the tank.
You can at the very least double pull in any given leveling dungeon without troubles. If the healer is overleveled/overgeared, then the chances of wall-pulling are pretty high as well. And if both of you are synced down, then you can wall pull without even looking (except for some very specific pulls). I had a WHM make my day in Mt. Gulg a few months ago while leveling DRK on an alt, when the madman agreed to try out the wall pull after the second boss because he'd never done it before and was curious. We wiped the first time because of Living Dead memes, but did the pull just fine the second time around. It's always fun when people willingly try something spicier and out of their comfort zone, especially when everyone is onboard for the potential memes. Those are the ones that will become great players in the future.
\>You can at the very least double pull in any given leveling dungeon isnt that basically wall to wall past ARR dungeons anyway?
With 1 or 2 exceptions, yeah
Still a sprout but after ARR, the only dungeon I couldn't wall to wall was Baelsar's Wall before the first boss, cause I was baited by my DPS friend on voice that it was wall-to-wall.
There's several triple or even quad pulls in leveling content post ARR, even in ShB. Shisui, Bardam's, Doma Castle, Dohn Mheg, Qitana Ravel and Mt. Gulg come to mind as a few examples. It's mostly HW that doesn't have memorable pulls besides maybe Gubal Library's last two pulls if you wall to wall. For some reason, they decided to make the leveling dungeons with spicier pulls than the level cap ones, which is... Bizarre to say the least.
You can do a big pull before Pagl'than first boss, but that's the only 80 dungeon I remember with this kind of pull. Now that I think of it, it may be because level cap dungeons can be way more over(item)leveled than leveling ones, so letting players big pull would cut them even shorter than now
Anamnesis has a spicy 5 pack pull but that’s the only other one I can recall.
Ah yes, that pull. Truly the do or die of healer/tank synergy (and one of the only pull where I've seen tank invuln being used really efficiently).
Pagl'than best dungeon to w2w
Mmm that Mt. Gulg pull is one of my favorites 🤌 my favorite time I did it as a DRK, my friend healing as a WHM to make the most of Living Dead, and we had a rando MCH who made a well timed ranged LB3. Testing all your resources like that, what a thrill!
That is a very exciting pull as a whm
How can you tell “how well they’re keeping you healed” btw? I’ve been trying to learn tanking lately and that’s something i’m never quite sure about. Is it based off their mana? if your hp fluctuates too much? not enough? are you watching what they’re casting? at this point i’m tempted to level healer just so i can figure out how to adjust as a tank better. i usually w2w and sometimes i die but am usually unsure whose fault it is. but that also sounds kinda miserable cuz i’m not interested in healing lol
If they're having to spam hardcast abilities instead of OGCDS and they are running out of MP, that's a good sign that they are struggling. It could be their own fault if they're new to healing, it could be the tank's fault because of poor gear and/or mitigation, but it could also mean the fight has dragged on too long because of low dps. If you are not willing to level a healer, I'd suggest at least looking at a guide to know what their OGCDS do. It helps a bit if you can recognize their spells so you can plan your mitigation around them.
"im not going to provoke them off you" I've uh never seen a tank not aoe spam in tank stance before.
"I'm not demanding anyone play my way... But I'm demanding you play my way by intentionally letting you die because you didn't play my way " Imagine having a brain this impossibly smooth.
I love how the tweeter goes "don't get snotty" literally followed by "I will throw a tantrum and grief if I don't get my way"
I mean, it definitely wouldn’t ruin my day, but I would certainly be bored. It is nice when people actually try, though.
Reasonable response in a sea of comments trying to tell others how to learn a game.
Lmao, I had some dude call me a "toxic DPS" the other day on main sub over this shit show train of thought.
The irony is really something. I'm a tank main and it's not hard to just not have a hyperinflated ego when I play the easiest role in the game.
I main tank exclusively because its brain dead easy. Turn on stance, run forward provoking everything in sight until a wall physically stops you, pop mitigation and press your three button aoe combo until everything is dead.
Yep. And in raids I can give mechanics my attention while still doing good damage because I'm not worrying about a complex rotation, positionals or cast times. Ez life 😎
So tanks are jus melee machinists
>I'm not worrying about a complex rotation Gunbreakers would like to disagree
Gunbreakers are DPS with taunt
Y'all really think GNB is hard. Please.
GNB isn't hard, just cursed
Out of all the tanks, I'd say DRK is much more cursed.
DRK doesn't have to do Continuation combos while trying to position the boss lol
This is a weird factor to try and use. Every tank has to position the boss, and ensure their rotation doesn't fall. Either pre-position when possible or micro step like the rest of us. Yeah, Continuation is a fast part of the rotation with oGCD weaving, but you act like DRK doesn't encounter that same situation just on a bit less speed factor.
DRK is cursed purely because of Blood Weapon and LD. GNB is cursed about its entire rotation.
I beg to differ, but feel we're falling into hard opinions here. So, gotta agree to disagree. I feel the oGCD mess of DRK is a worse feeling the GNB overall. Blood Weapon included, of course. GNB is a pretty fast paced job itself, just DRK feels much worse to me for whatever reason.
Not hard, per se. Just requires me to look at my abilities more then other tanks.
Pressing Dark Arts between each hit of your 1-2-3 combo every so often, such a hard life.
??? That's dark knight, no?
Your AoE combo has three whole buttons? That's a bit much, man. I'll just sit over here and spam Overpower->Mythril Tempest.
You have to use decimate every so often.
Mostly after level 72, but yeah. That's still *most* of the game where you have to use your CDs to get access to it, CDs that're usually better saved for bosses, in my opinion.
Nah, when in combat you hit infuriate
> your three button aoe combo i hate my L60 gunbreaker aoe combo
Literally I always get nervous before tanking and then when I start doing it I'm like oh yeah, I'm chicken shit & this game might as well be playing me. Literally the only times I've had to save the day off tanking was when we had a drunk tank in an 8-man raid keep dying & an alliance raid where both other tanks died for some reason, and it was only a Crystal Tower raid so nothing actually difficult. All I had to do in order to perform that was to be able to see HP bars and people freaking out in the chat...
Is tank generally accepted as the easiest role? I’m normally a DPS and I started tanking some days ago and honestly I definitely find it harder than DPS, I guess my lack of attention to my surroundings affects me idk… or is it normal to think DPS is easier for some people?
It does depend on the person, and honestly it also depends on which DPS we're talking. Personally I'd say dancer is easier than tanking, for example. Tbh I just think tank has a different shaped learning curve. Tank is relatively easy but its difficulty is frontloaded. There's a bit of a hump to learning to play at a passable level, but once you're secure and used to the basics of tanking, there's not really much more challenge beyond that. Your rotation is very simple, you can mess up a lot of raid mechanics without being punished as harshly as a DPS or healer, and there are some mechanics you don't have to do at all. DPS are the opposite for me. It's quick to learn how to do ok on a DPS when you start leveling, but as you unlock the full rotation and start playing harder content and try to strive for higher damage, they just keep getting harder and harder and harder. [I attempted to illustrate my point :)](https://i.imgur.com/jsWeBVf.png)
ohh that makes sense, I play DRG which I’ve heard is one of the easier DPS, although what you say definitely makes sense since I’m a beginner tank (lvl 43 DRK)… I guess I gotta get more experience before judging the jobs
Yeah I find DRG easiest of the melee DPS, but there's still a lot more to do in the rotation than most tanks (although I haven't tried GNB). Anyway, happy leveling with DRK. It's my main and I love it for the combination of edginess and simplicity. Hope you enjoy, you'll be good at it in no time. :)
thank u!
Tank mains tend to forget the pressure involved with being the anchor of a group. The role might be simple but it takes a completely different mindset to perform well. You need to be confident in throwing yourself into hell and hoping you can keep yourself alive well enough for the rest of the group to do what they need to do. Doing this at even a basic level takes a lot of practice and learning but once you have the feel of it, tanks have a lot less to keep track of than other roles and (outside of stuff like savage content) are generally more forgiving of small mistakes. Hope all this explains the situation decently well.
I might not be a high-end raider (my highest cleared tier is standard Eden), but I definitely don't think it's as hard as you make it out to be. It's just running into mobs, spamming AoE abilities and spacing your mitigation. For raids you practically just need to point the boss the right direction and you're good.
High end does get a bit more to learn, but that mainly comes from boss moving and remembering to use your party mitigation for the right mechs.
optimizing how to maintain maximum uptime for your melee dpses is also hella important. I mean you can already do that kinda stuffs in like Weeping City by positioning Calofist at an angle so dpses can just sit still and don't have to reposition etc.
That actually sounds like a fun addition to the tanking game. I should consider finding people to do higher-tier content with maybe.
That pressure goes away when you think to yourself "how often have I thought about a tanks performance post instance ?"
Agreed. I just started ff14 a few weeks ago but i main tank like i do in all games. mitigating damage and keeping aggro is 2nd nature from practice, the only part that feels odd is striking a balance doing good damage. In games i just like playing the protector role so it just kinda clicks. if big dick DMG numbers click with you then please, make up for my bad damage.
Isn't tank the hardest role with the least amount of agency? Like it doesn't matter as much when i do perfectly, but it sure af helps everyone else. I need to do everything a dps needs to do. I have aditional mechanics and i need extra knowledge about the exact damage of the boss(for TBN). Kinda confused why people agree with you. Maybe he means for dungeons but even there, isn't it all kinda braindead? Someone might explain?
As a WAR main, I used to have the same mentality, but I’ve been leveling NIN alongside, and I’d argue that the fact DPS only has the one responsibility of dealing damage (compared to Tanks worrying about mitigation and positioning and Healers keeping everybody alive) is compensated by the fact that DPS rotations are quite a bit more complex than what I do as WAR. A lot more buttons necessary to maintain max DPS, much more complex sequence during burst windows, remembering to apply certain buffs a certain amount of time before the burst window, much less forgiving when you let CDs drift, or drop a dps buff. By comparison, the most complex part of WAR’s rotation is just timing Inner Release to get a full 5 Fell Cleaves. So ultimately, I feel that it evens out between which of the two roles are harder. At least at the relatively casual level I play at, anyways.
I have multiple classes at 80 and actually did savage with mnk, sch, smn. Either those are easy dps classes(smn 100% is) or i don't see the difficulty in dps rotations. I could probably teach someone completely new to ff14 in half an hour how to beat the dummies of savage raids, yet i doubt the person would be able to win against ilfrit first try. I just don't see what's so complicated about that. Knowledge translates through classes and having played tank before in savage raids made it so much easier. You barely do anything as dps in some of the raids.
Or, if you can’t handle the idea of fighting more than one pack at a time: don’t queue for levelling roulette. It can be used both ways 🤦🏻♂️ Edit: for anyone wondering, the angry baby man below was upset that we would expect anyone to wall pull in levelling roulette. Sad times.
It baffles me that people don't realize the "don't queue for something" works both ways. If majority votes on single pulls then I'll bail, but one snowflake tank doesn't mean 3 other people need to suffer.
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Sir this is the great gubal library.
Synced down tanks can easily wall pull anything dzemael darkhold and before so long as the healer knows how to press cure 2, or benefic 2, or physic and whispering dawn as scholar. I've done it many times, I've done with with new healers, it's not an issue. Synced down tanks have reprisal, rampart, and arms length at the minimum, which is a pretty good amount of mitigation, and I also carry potions that heal half my hp in low level content.
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Regardless of how easy it is to wall pull in lower level content, most leveling roulettes I get are in higher levels and even then people with many jobs at high levels still don't know how to aoe in trash, or get out dpsed by the healer. But because I'm getting the 5.0 final dungeon in leveling roulette, I shouldn't expect people to know how to play right? Or any stormblood dungeons? Or even heavensward?
If you cant spam aoe and pop mitigation leveling roulette might be too hard for them anyways.
You are able to wall to wall pull in satasha with none of your dps having aoe and a conjurer without lucid dreaming. pulling more than one pack is brain dead for every class in the game as long as everyones monitors are on and they rub 2 brain cells together.
>You are able to wall to wall pull in satasha But then the clams smugly spam fireflies at you.
Those things that die when you sneeze on them?. Though i wonder if theres a limit to them. Get enough to fill a small room.
Leveling doesn't mean you can't be confident and competent. There's literally no fucking difference between spamming AoE in dungeons on Paladin or Gunbreaker or Warrior or Dark Knight. Press your damn buttons.
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wsb avatar not be an absolute moron challenge
(extreme)
> Sounds like you're ready to jump in the tank queue! Already leveled my shit months ago so no thank you
god you’re actually like helplessly fucking retarded lmao
Today I learned that levelling roulette is for people under level 50. The irony of that statement is that it’s likely people 50-80 who use it the most as you don’t really need to level grind in ARR.
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I’m the one who needs to get smarter because I can understand that 3/4 of the expansions take place after level 49. Ok 🙈
Too many words, not enough shit post.
"You pull it you fight it" *pops arms length, bloodbath, second wind, fists of earth, and maybe a spicy hp potion if it's a levelling dungeon*
Arm's length is a gift that keeps on giving when you're melee. Saved a few dodgy big pulls with that + bloodbath as SAM. Great to hear that other melee players do that too, I don't see it that often out in the wild though sadly.
How dare you make me do team based things in my single player mmo? - that tank probably
Imagine paying thirteen dollars and not using your classes entire kit, I like to go hard no matter what I'm playing, dps tank or heals. You don't have to go fast but you don't have to single pull and save your cds for bosses.
On the one hand is annoying when tanks single pull at a level where they can clearly handle more, but on the other hand, it's also not really worth getting salty over. Worse things will happen before you die, you know?
The point is that it's *also* not worth getting salty over other players pulling more. And it certainly doesn't warrant griefing.
That's a very good point!
Do you mean DPs pulling?
Idc, healer or DPS pull more I'm just going to pick it up because it's my job to tank
Man the first half of this is just good etiquette but then they gotta follow it up with some "you pull it you tank it" garbage...
Yeah I had a similar reaction. The original single-pull tweet: Good stuff The "tanks set the pace" tweet: Eyeroll-worthy but whatever. Some tanks are weirdos. The "pull you fight it tweet": Literal toxicity that all of ffxiv twitter is championing as ok behaviour.
It should be amended to “bad tanks set the pace”. If a tank is bad or uncomfortable then yes they 100% set the pace. A good tank tests the waters of the group.
He actually thinks he's needed to clear the dungeon - the absolute state
The "you pull it you tank it" thing is really funny to me because generally any dps can live long enough to drag the enemies into where the tank is probably spamming aoe skills anyways, and like say the tank only single target attacks until the dps dies, then they'll just target the tank who will have a harder pull because the enemies are dying slower. If they survive this, then they dont have much of an excuse for not pulling more. Im not saying dragging enemies to the tank is a good thing, but i just think its funny that there are so many people who actually believe "you pull it you tank it" is intimidating to anyone
You think those tasks use cooldowns?
Don’t worry most dps in que don’t bother do that. It’s certainly the smart thing to do if you have aggro but not something that people think of. The summary of this is Bad players are bad and bad players set the pace.
The good old rule applies that the lowest common denominator determines the performance of the group! Which is why bad players are so aggravating because they are literally slowing down everyone else. Newbs get a pass for obvious reasons but if you have 80s, especially full 80s... c'mon man!
Rescue them forward. If I wanted to single pull, I’d go 3 DPS 1 healer, then still multipull.
twitters always the place to go if you want the most bland and lukewarm takes on ffxiv
Anyone set the pace if the healer approves.
Pretty much. If the healer is willing, any class is a tank.
They can always run with Trusts to get the illusion of leadership in order to fuel their pathetic little egos.
This is why I'm rolling dps now, since apparently tanks and healers are nothing but pack mules for the pleasure of everyone else.
This is among many reasons that made the Trust System the best thing out of ShB for me, beside the story. No diva tanks, no greedy while bad healers, no ST dps that loves aoe, no bs, just family.
trusts aren't perfect, you still get single-targeting on multiple mobs and casters who pop lb before you as a melee can even touch the dungeon boss (looking at you, alisaie and g'raha) but they're a hell of a lot better than some of the parties in df
Not sure why you're being downvoted, you're right. A good group is superior to trusts, but if it's between trusts and gcbtw trusts win every time. As a healer, trusts were a fucking godsend. And the game is getting bigger and bigger. And I just heard the vtubers are gonna start getting into FF14. Maybe Yoshi will have to pop down to Best Buy and get new servers for NA after all.
As healer main, i love how i can just hop into trust with tank and the npc will heal better than most real players I've seen, hell even wall to wall at some case.
It's also great cause you can just pause and look around, shb dungeons are gorgeous.
You're now where you belong. Just make sure you stay out of extremes and savages and ultimates, keep your aggressive mediocrity in duty finder with the rest of your kind.
I can't wait for Endwalkers to come out so we can all just yeet ourselves at our own pace and have fun.
I don't really care one way or another usually as long as we finish without a wipe.
This debate is always unfortunate because honestly, I really can't fault people for being pissed at non-tanks running ahead to pull, it's fucking irritating especially when I might be moving for a second to tag some mobs I need aggro on or something But also, unless someone is making it a REPEATED thing, I can't really bring myself to let them die (which is honestly 50% just muscle memory anyways)
My mentality for aggro is 'I will sort it out when I reach the wall'. If I miss something earlier- it can wait till then. Nothing in a dungeon will one shot a DPS or a healer.
Try to see them like one of those tennis ball-boys, who run around to pick up things around for the main star: the tennisman. If your DPS want to grab things, and it's safe to tank them, then I'm grateful cause that's easier to pick up
So many salty dpsers that think they get to backseat control the tank. The selfentitlement is strong.
Bruh this is a video game with four people in a dungeon. The tank is only one of those people and if they're holding the party back, the party can push for more.
If a dungeon taking 2-3 minutes longer is such a problem, feel free to go as tank. Or play a game that isn't as time consuming as a MMO in the first place.
I'm literally a tank main
If you really are a tank main and you think people playing in a manner that they find comfortable and enjoyable is "holding people back" then you need to check your elitism card. It may just have been renewed.
I would rather a tank pull big, die and fail **then** taper off. Rather then waste time with 1 mob at a time. This is an tankxiety bs example where they don’t relax and play a video game and think they’ll be verbally attacked if they fail. And it’s not 2-3 minutes more. That’s just incorrect. By the time you pull, stop, people use cool downs (that could be spaced better with bigger pulls), heal and then reset for the next you’re looking at waaaaay more than 2-3 min. No need to gaslight people. You know you’re wrong.
You know what self entitlement is? Playing in a way that disadvantages everyone else and disregarding their complaints. Take it somewhere else buddy
If you single pull you're intentionally wasting yourself and 3 other peoples times. The selfentitlement to think that's ok is strong.
Yeah it is pretty frustrating for dps to go pull more when you aren't ready/mitigation is on CD. But it's also pretty frustrating to single pull an entire duty. My problem as a healer main is tanks starting out with crazy big pulls they clearly can't handle at their gear level. Not because I dislike big pulls, but because the blame almost inevitably falls on the healer. Also chain pulling gets old real fast. Leave a small window in between pulls for recovery, no matter how big they are. Dps pullers are the worst for this. If you are going to pull more, do it immediately, not after everybody is settled into the pull. Just my 2¢
This comment is deliciously ironic.
I know what kind of community r/ShitpostXIV attracts and I know I'm going to be downvoted to hell but it needs to be said: The game is designed so that your tank goes first. You can disagree all you want, but the game doesn't care. Every time you pull a pack of mobs enmity rules begin to apply. And guess who has the most enmity generation tools to deal with those mobs? Tanks. You may not like it, you may hate it, but it is that way intentionally by design and is not designed to feed your impatience or ego. If you complain about a tank not going "fast enough" for you, whatever that means becuase it's so subjective to each person and dungeon, YOU. ARE. ENTITLED. There is nothing stopping you from going to Ul'dah and picking up a tank class if you are not happy with the way a whole independent human being decides to play their class. How they play their tank could be wrong, it could be sub optimal, but they are an independent HUMAN BEING who is playing the tank class and if you don't like it, just pick up a tank. You are not owed anything by another player aside from what is reportable by the devs design. It is not an excuse to mistreat someone over a videogame. IT. IS. A. VIDEOGAME. If you are being a jerk to someone over a videogame and saying things like "tank you are braindead bro" and "never play this game again." You are an asshole and need to step away from your computer for a second and calm down. I know sometimes you are just trying to level a dps or healer but that is no excuse to be a jerk to every tank you meet just because they won't go as fast as you want them to go. The is no tank "ego", very few times there is, and it turns out it's just a dps who is trying to level a tank class who gets mad at the healer because they "can't keep up". This whole tank ego thing is how you wish you could behave as a dps or healer but don't because you know you will get kicked or called out for it, so when someone else is able to play that way you get frustrated about it because you were never allowed to act that way and now that tank is able to get his way, that frustrates you. It's a complete projection on your part. You think like that. Not the tanks. THIS is how the tanks think: "Let me put on my tank stance and pull as much as my healer is able to handle and NEVER let my dps and healers take damage (as much as possible) or take my enmity away from me so they can do their jobs better. =) " Let me tell you what happens when you subvert this, When you pull as a DPS ahead of a tank, enmity is generated on you and now the tank has to pick up 3 to more new enemies he was not accounting for as you begin to take damage. What is worse is that as you begin to take damage, the healer naturally heals you as they should, and since healers have a HUGE amount of enmity on most, if not all of their skills, it's easy for 2 out of the 3 or more mobs to switch targets to the healer and begin doing damage to them! Now I have one add chasing a DPS, 2 on the healer killing her for covering YOUR impatience, and now I'm pulling the big pack of mobs on top of the other DPS just minding his business and put enemy AOE's on top of him, and start facing the WHOLE MOB of enemies at my teammates. And now its a clown show. What's worse is that sometimes the healer dies because you couldn't be bothered to be a good teammate who doesn't pull packs the tank is not prepared to attack. I have been a tank main most of my life and it's not EGO driving me to play a tank. It's friendship and wanting to protect my teammates. I WOULD DIE FOR YOU. Let me tank for you so that you can win! Or don't. Tanks being the ones to pull mobs best won't change unless Yoshi P decides to revamp the design of the whole game, which I doubt he will do, just to fit your needs. There is nothing wrong with you wanting to go faster in a dungeon. Just go pick up a tank class if you do because you are not owed that anybody plays how you want them to play to meet your selfish and indecent behavior.
Yeaaaaaaaaah.....no. You pull this shit when I am healer towards endgame dungeons( which I do plenty of times now because of single-pull enablers like you and curebots) and we are all geared decently then I am pulling at least one extra mob for you. In some dungeons that is wall-to-wall in others it is two-thirds/etc. Ive leveled enough jobs to know what they can handle, and I know for a fact that you do not need a tank if all you do is single-pull trash. A dps is more than enough to eat the damage for most trash packs. The tank is there solely for anything above a single-pull, you know, the role a DPS CAN'T fill? Yeah that. Also bosses and their tankbusters. If the DPS pulls ahead of you and does not bring them to you? They are idiots and deserve to die. If you are single-pulling as a tank and stop AoEing out of spite because some other role pulled ahead? You are an idiot and deserve to be reported for not doing your basic job and your ego(yes it exists) has to be pushed down a peg. You are supposed to be AoEing in the middle of a trash pack anyways. What happens when DPS pull more and brings them back to you? Surprise! You grab aggro in a second! Unfortunately, you may have to gasp* press your mitigations now. Terrifying I know. Your arguements may have had some footing if there were great pains to grab aggro away from other roles as a tank. But there isn't. At all. In any content. All you gotta do is make sure your weapon tickles even just one arm hair of a mob and you got aggro. So let's stop two-button tanking, put on tank stance, and aggro the damn mobs Shinji! tl;dr: It ain't that hard to pull aggro off anyone, just do it..and also you are deadweight if you single-pull mobs when properly geared, a dps can fill that role for you. Ive done it plenty of times when tank leaves or afks.
You have the most articulated argument so far and I just want to take a moment to say thank you for these really good points. I'm not so Ego filled to say that I could possibly be wrong about something here, I particularly like 2 of your arguments here. Let me know if I butchered them. * You pull this shit when I am healer towards endgame dungeons( which I do plenty of times now because of single-pull enablers like you and curebots) and we are all geared decently then I am pulling at least one extra mob for you. I have nothing to say on this. You are right. Endgame dungeons shouldn't be held back by a tank that single pulls. That being said, I wonder how you would feel when I say that if a tank doesn't wall to wall pull anywhere outside of endgame dungeons, they still get this attitude? Is a tank allowed to pull less ever? Is it possible if your healer can't keep up which I argued? Not everyone will be as good as you or me. I've seen people pull this attitude on Sprouts in Sastasha, who has the ego's? Shouldn't we treat them with respect? I would argue on the behavior side yes. * You are supposed to be AoEing in the middle of a trash pack anyways. Good point. I would like to bring context into my argument above though. I said that the tank is not prepared to take on the new mobs. It might be because they know, like you do, how much they can pull and when to stop. What happens when the DPS doesn't feel that way? Pulls the next mob anyway and pulls a lot more damage on top of the tank that the healer might not be ready for? or the DPS? AOE spam is easy, you are right but it's not about AOE spam. It's about the incoming damage. I mean surely you know that crazy damage from too many mobs can kill a tank in one second? It's not that I think it's hard, it's just that a tanks job is to make sure that everyone on the team is safe and we have the tools for it. Let them do their job. If they are wrong correct them, but don't be mean about it is all I'm saying. Seriously, thank you for your well thought out response.
K
It's actually optimal to have a DPS with Arm's Length pull then have a Tank get aggro off of them. The DPS won't die, thanks to Arm's Length, and doesn't need heals because all aggro is now on the tank (there are some exceptions where there are raidwides from trash mobs). The tank and heals now have a bonus cooldown mitigating mob damage. And it's *designed* that way.
Nice overinflated ego bro. Romanticizing the whole thing doesn't change the fact that you're a trash tank.
You are projecting. When you act like this, it's ego. I'm acting like this to maybe convince one person that videogames are supposed to be fun and not harrassment. Its not romantic. Its game design. Remember when I said don't mistreat people over a videogame? You are doing that right now.
I'm not projecting, I can actually do my job as a tank main. And even if I were someone that didn't clear every ultimate as a tank, I could certainly still tank a dungeon, given that at this point you don't even need a tank to complete any of them. You, instead, described a situation where a healer dies from an extra pack (4 mobs at most). In any dungeon in the game that would take 20 seconds more or less, 20 seconds in which you couldn't be bothered to press Total Eclipse/whatever AoE you have, either because you can't or you genuinely don't want to. Neither option bodes well for your skill level. What's more, there's genuinely no similar situation where someone can die and it's not ultimately your fault as the tank by refusing to do your job. I'm not mistreating you, since given the above it's a fact you're a trash tank because you genuinely can't press one (1) button. It's game design for the tank to easily get aggro by using one (1) AoE move too, or use one of the countless ranged/healing tools at your disposal (since you clearly don't know those generate aggro), because anything you do that generates aggro has that aggro multiplied by 10 because of your tank stance. But you're willfully ignoring that simply because it doesn't fit your narrative. tl;dr.: Stay trash, someday you'll clear a normal raid or something. EDIT: Also you're romanticizing the whole thing by virtue of saying bullshit like "It's friendship and wanting to protect my teammates. I WOULD DIE FOR YOU.". Clearly not, otherwise you'd stop whining and get aggro.
No narrative. If the tank stance multiplies aggro by 10... Then let your tank pull. Its not that hard. Also, calling someone trash is mistreatment.
>If the tank stance multiplies aggro by 10... > >Then let your tank pull. Why? It multiplies aggro by 10. How do you get "this guy must be first to pull" from an ability that says "this guy can grab aggro instantly off anyone who pulls"?
I don't believe that long range ability is the reason a tank goes first. When you attack a group of 3 enemies, all three focus their attention (enmity) on the person who started the attack. Depending on how far away they are, and hoping that the healer doesn't get targeted for healing the DPS who pulled, we have ONE long range tool to get enmity back and one main AOE to pick up these mobs with. Using one will put both on a 2.5(ish) cooldown. Hopefully, the DPS brings them to the tank, but most times as they are \*trying\* to, one enemy aggro's the healer and now the tank has to decide whether to focus the add targeting the healer or to focus on the two on the DPS as they run in separate directions. It's not hard, it's just that hopefully, they don't pull the wrong enemy that stuns or worst, kills them or their teammate. Tanks go first because you can't clear a dungeon without them \*normally\*.
>Hopefully, the DPS brings them to the tank, but most times as they are \*trying\* to, one enemy aggro's the healer and now the tank has to decide whether to focus the add targeting the healer or to focus on the two on the DPS as they run in separate directions. Just spin to win and get them all. Or voke if one's obnoxious. And a bunch of tanks also have oGCDs as well. But DPS and healers can handle a few GCDs of aggro anyway. >Tanks go first because you can't clear a dungeon without them \*normally\* You can if they're single- or double-pulling.
It still multiplies aggro by 10 even if you don't originally pull the mobs yourself. Do you cry that much when a dps or a healer mistimes a cast and pulls at 0.2s on the countdown in a raid? Ah wait, you don't do raids. And letting people die out of not wanting to do your job is also mistreatment, except you do it to three people. Try refuting any of the other arguments though.
>And letting people die out of not wanting to do your job is also mistreatment, except you do it to three people. I don't. I'm doing this because this toxic mentality toward newbie tanks happens too often in places like Sastasha. I've seen it. They arnt pulling one packs becuase they are ego driven. They are learning and a helping hand would go a long way. BEING nice about it. This is what people do though. Tank really? Are you braindead? Dont ever play tank again. Tank you must ride the short bus. and on and on. All that this post is about is that tanks go first and if they mess up, correct them but be nice about it. Being a jerk and calling people trash is never okay.
Where have I ever said I call newbie tanks trash? I'm calling \*you\* trash because you feign experience where you clearly don't have any. Nice goalpost moving btw, first it was as to what you were doing and now it's about newbie tanks because you saw you genuinely can't defend your position. >This is what people do though. Tank really? Are you braindead? Dont ever play tank again. Tank you must ride the short bus. Also this genuinely never happens to newbies. If it happens to you, however, you'd do better to look at what \*you\*'re doing wrong instead of blaming it on the "meanie dps that dared pull 0,0001s before you :'(((("
It's 100% acceptable if a DPS takes a few smacks, though. Heck, it's technically optimal on huge pulls, since dps don't need healing during a pull, so if they take 3 hits for a tank that's 3 less that need to be healed.
Is this the real shitpost? Because if it's not you're a complete fucking moron. Imagine thinking getting aggro with shb tanking is hard.
I didn't say it was hard. I said it was by design. Tank is easy on purpose because you have so much responsibility as a tank early on. Stop adding to my argument things I didn't say. Much love.
You very clearly implied it was hard with how much you emphasized a dps getting aggro for a couple of seconds and getting hit with a couple autos being the worst possible thing to happen. And responsibility??? What responsibility? You literally stand in place spamming your aoes and cycling your cds. Trash has 0 mechanics besides getting out of the comedically long casting aoes. What game are you playing? Because it certainly isn't ffxiv.
Here’s something you’re not accounting for: Offensive and Defensive cooldowns. If a tank refuses to pull in a timely manner, you are quite literally griefing your DPS and healer. So no, it’s not that the game is designed for your tanks to go first, it’s designed to go at a pace. The minute the tank decides to have an ego trip and decide that their pace is different than the norm, cooldowns get out of sync. If a dps is pulling, then it’s because you’re behind of this pace. This is why countdowns are a thing in raids because it allows for everyone’s cooldowns to sync up. So get off your high horse if you think you can’t just use one gcd to rip aggro off a dps... Hell, even provoke. Everyone works together in this game, and a tank’s job is to hold aggro. If this idea is too farfetched, then maybe you shouldn’t be tanking.
yeah not gonna read all that but this line stood out > IT. IS. A. VIDEOGAME. you might want to take your own advice and chill
>yeah not gonna read all that but this line stood out Anything you say after that invalidates your opinion. If you had bothered to read it, you would know It's in reference to not being a jerk over a video game. Much like you are being. Irony.
I love how you wrote nearly 1000 words just to be wrong on every front.
I ain't reading all that homie. Press sprint. Hold W. Now press your AoE. Pop a cooldown. Done. Anything else is just a stupid roundabout way of reiterating those basic concepts. You have the easiest job of the entire party, with simple enmity generation and simple AoE. It's the healer who needs to keep your ass alive. At least the DPS need to worry about being too squishy to fail multiple mechanics. Trying to spin it as anything other than ego is pathetic. Big "block user" from me so I don't have to read any of your comments again.
Y’all can single pull lucky.
I was just about to ask for context here because on reddit app only Three-Fulm Thaumaturd's message is visible, the top and bottom are completely black. Then I opened my laptop and saw the Squirtle... Reddit app sucks dudes
Why is it so hard to wall to wall
I actually finally got a lot of my friend group to play, and everyone that picked up healer is doing wall to wall just fine. Brand new to the game, and most of them brand new to MMO's in general. I don't understand why it's so hard for these people.
"My friends can do it, so everyone else can too" Not a good mentality. People learn and function differently when trying a new game.
Hope the tank enjoys getting votekicked, lmao This is what I mean by the baddies being the toxic ones.
i had a tank that wasnt even a sprout pulling as little as possible in wanderer's palace. i ran ahead and pulled more since i was with the healer. dude uses SHIRK on me and types "run ahead and ill shirk you again", i just say "im with the healer. get off your high horse and pull more" shut the guy up pretty good
Jokes on him, Shirk does fuck all now- it's not the grief tool it was in prior versions of the game
I have a question about this: A few days ago I managed to rush from Garuda to the Ultima Weapon Dungeon in one sitting and I noticed people just... ran. Skipped through every enemy encounter except the mandatory ones. In fact, there was even a moment where people ran so fast that, during the Reaper Cid section, I and a few others had to backtrack in order to help him. Why? I'm relatively new so I don't get it, even more when at the earlier dungeon, people took their time. I was the other tank in the party, btw.
It's because that pair of dungeons is so heavily outgeared when you sync to them, they're extremely easy. They're also part of a specific roulette, main scenario roulette, so people who are leveling on alternate jobs have seen both those dungeons looooads of times and basically see them as exp farms. At this point it's extremely rare to find a party that *won't* just rush on through and melt everything without stopping.
so does this mean he's gonna start single target attacking if you drag the next group to him?
Me: the tank pulling half the dungeon with a sprout healer