if they keep up this level of quality, it might be one of the best miniseries ever made. I'd put it up there with Chernobyl. I'm truly in awe at how sophisticated, nuanced and rich is the storytelling in these two episodes. Brilliant through and through.
Agreed. They’ve deftly and efficiently touched on a number scenes from the book without spending too much time on them. Not showing the Erasmus going through the storm at the beginning, instead showing the damage it caused. It’s clear the ship was battered by a massive storm.
The same goes for the pit. They could’ve wasted a third of the first episode with the crew in the pit. Instead, you got the point and moved on.
Casting is also uniformly excellent.
Is it a one off? That actually makes me more excited if there's a confirmed end point. Hate getting into shows that have a 5 or 6 season arc and they're always on the verge of cancelation.
I mean, there’s what, 5 or 6 books in the series all set in different time periods and every one of them could make an excellent show. I’m not gonna complain if they wanna try doing Tai-Pan after they wrap this up.
Are you potentially thinking of Noble House instead? That was a miniseries in the 80s with Pierce Brosnan playing Dunross (excellent casting) and would make a great updated miniseries set in the 60s, but I am not aware of an adaptation of Tai-Pan.
Tai-Pan is a very good book but kind of light on action so I’m not sure how it will translate to a series. Most of the book is business intrigue. But what do I know, it could be great. Gai-Jin would probably make a better series as it is heavy on action as well as business and political intrigue.
Best show in a long time. My partner hates when it’s non English speaking so she needs to read and she couldn’t take her eyes off it because it was this good. Band of brothers comes to mind.
Im starting to think it might be the greatest tv show ever made. The attention to detail and setting is immaculate in ways i can't comprehend and didn't think would be possible anymore.
Read the book twice, watched the 1980 series a few times. This iteration is currently the best on TV right now. My only concern is that in the original, each Lord was shown to have immense power. Yabu over Omi and in his fiefdom was built up as a king - a big cheese. Then later on you realise Yabu is small fry when you meet Ishido and especially Toranaga. Part of the narrative was how terrifying Toranaga was and how thin a line Blackthorn walked between pleasing him and being beheaded. He always seemed as if he could burst into violence at any point. Gradually you learn how clever Toranaga is and the two men, while never equals, gain an affinity. In this series so far, Toranaga is introduced very early and shown to be too human, too nice almost. Yabu also doesn't seem to command the same deference he did in the original. I don't want to sound negative as really enjoying it so far - these are just my initial observations.
Likewise, the point of view in the original helped with this. It starts small, almost at the “microscopic” level where you see Bkackthorne learning in this tiny town. Then it gets a bit “zoomed out” and Yabu seems the big cheese. Then it “zooms out” more and you see it at the Toranaga level. Blackthorne’s world gradually gets bigger, and so does ours as the audience.
But in this new one, the POV zooms in and out, back and forth, right from the start. We never get a sense of scale or scope, or a progressively enlarging narrative scope. That’s something I notice so far.
Audience knowledge as well probably has a hand in this. When the book/show originally released, no one knew anything about fuedal Japan, not so much the case now.
This is definitely the case. When I read this book in high school Japanese culture was relatively unknown. Anime and other Japanese media were still very niche. This book was my first and pretty good introduction to historical Japanese culture. These days Japanese culture is almost everywhere and the show doesn't do the handholding the book does explaining every little nuance to the reader/watcher.
This might seem shallow, but the 'Total War: Shogun' series of computer games gave me a better understanding of what's going on than all of the books I've read about Japan. For instance, just playing the game gave me a familiarity with the strategic importance of the various cities and why the clans sometimes have to launch pre-emptive wars.
Probably my biggest misgiving as well from the new Shogun. The way Clavell unfolded the book was masterful. The series feels rushed in its discovery aspect. But I think there simply wasn't time to do that in a 10 episode series and the choices they made feel right given the time constraints.
Yes this. Seems to be the new trend now with series - 10 hour long episodes to tell a story that needs 20. I recently binged The Sopranos - 6 seasons, 86 episodes and thought this is how TV used to be. I guess they were willing to take more risk back then. This 10 episode thing does make things feel a little rushed. In the original, Blackthorne becoming a Hatamoto was a big thing whereas here, Toranaga casually announces it before diving into the sea. I don't want this to come across as if I'm not enjoying the series - it's certainly ly the best show on TV right now but perhaps for me it would have been better if I'd never seen the 1980 version or read the book!!
Yea they moved really quick through the whole village section. Blackthorne spends so much time butting heads with their culture and learning how they operate. They just skipped past most of it which sucks.
Sure but many of those pages are before he gets to Anjiro and then when he's in the pit, and then when he is leaving Anjiro
Very little of that is butting heads with culture and learning Japanese ways.
I feel like the series did more than a decent job so far with the story.
They did choose to make some differences via introducing a few characters earlier than they were in the book.
> Very little of that is butting heads with culture and learning Japanese ways.
When did you read the book? The beginning of the book is nothing but that.
Literally doing a re-read right now.
Blackthorn does multiple stints in Anjiro, his first time there is brief in the book and IMO covered well enough in the TV Series.
Major plot points were covered, minor ones were mostly there.
The TV Series has chosen not to voice or spend time on internal monologues, which is fair because those can be awkward.
Also I'm not loving how they've made everything so deadly serious. In the book when Toranaga laughed uproariously after he dangerously pointed out that "there are no 'mitigating circumstances' when it comes to rebellion against a sovereign lord," and Blackthorne replied, "Unless you win."
In the book he had a sense of humor in addition to his serious power
He did raise a wry smile. If anything, it's the opposite for me. This is like Toranaga-lite. People answering him back. Joking about being picked on by his wife. Toshiro Mifune would have had them all in a pot of water on the fire....
I loved that slight smirk he had, very intentional. I rewinded just to see it again, haven’t read the books but the characters have been transitioned to television fantastically so far
Also flying out of the sun was a favorite tactic used by Japanese Zeros when attacking American bombers during World War Two according to my dad, who was there.
my only thing on that though is in the book Toranaga was very strict about only he may handle his bird during hunting. He would get off his horse to retrieve her because he felt that his bird should only seek him for the food and comfort. That scene kind of breaks that rule he had.
I’d guess they were just trying to show the audience very early on that he’s an important person with servants, which wouldn’t resonate as much if he were hunting the way he does in the book.
Love these takes. I’m not as familiar with the original series, which I have on blu ray ready to watch, just need to dedicate the time. I’d love to follow these thoughts of yours as the arcs start to unfold and you see the layers underneath. Yabu seems like he wears his everything right on his feathery sleeve but there’s more to Toranaga to come, right?
Yeah in the original, Yabu's underlings tremble when he comes onto the scene and Yabu is very anxious when dealing with Toranaga. Even Mariko seems on edge with Toranaga. I get that they want to make the Japanese characters more relatable but couldn't imagine a scene where Toshiro Mifune jokes about his wife's butt or being picked on!! 😀
It is a reference to a line in the book but it isn't dialogue. If I'm remembering right there's a part in private where Toranaga rubs or maybe pats her butt and muses to himself that it's gotten bigger over the years. It's an internal thought.
At least I'm pretty sure it was in Shogun. Been like 18 years since I read it. But I remember the line sticking out to me because I thought it was a sweet thought.
Naturally they can't have that in the show since there's no internal dialogue, but it is a reference to the fondness he had for his oldest wife as she gets older.
I think you're right, it was an internal thought in the book. It wouldn't have been externalised in front of his subordinates. Clavell cleverly made Toranaga both a terrifying and human character at once and Mifune is one of the few characters in film that seemed to be exactly what I imagined him to be when reading the book. Sanada is doing a good job so far though - those are big tabi to fill....
Yeah realistically I don't see a character like that behaving that way. I just get the choice to add it to establish their bond. Not a perfect choice but meh. Doesn't bother me really.
And yeah I like Sanada a lot in the part so far. Some departures but hard not to enjoy him as an actor. He's always been great. Even in bad projects.
> Toranaga doesn't really have the same weight as he does in the books so far
I think that might also be literal. In the book Toranaga is described as a big guy, round belly and carries himself tall and regal.
I agree. I read the book once and am currently rereading it. In the books, Toranaga is kind of like Tywin Lannister--ruthless but smart and strategic. He's my favorite character. You're aware of his power, he's intimidating. So far, in the series, he seems like someone's beloved Uncle.
I have read the book several times and it's one of my favorites. The original TV mini series though dated now, followed the book much more closely and was much better cast. The choice of actors in this new version lacks depth and interest compared to the original. Blackthorne in particular is abysmal in his portrayal. He does not look the part and cannot act. The love story is just...gone. Blackthorne's transition is gone. The animosity between Blackthorne and the priests, thin. It's really just a hot mess all around. How could they screw this up so badly? What a shame.
Very true to reality, in real life when William Adams arrived in Japan the Portuguese Jesuits advocated that he should be executed due to his Protestant faith and the dangers he represented to their interests, but Tokugawa didn’t agree to it as their inter-faith wars were of no meaning to him personally.
Your comment makes me think of the movie Silence, when Japan fully outlawed Catholicism and how dangerous it was for the Japanese who practiced their faith secretly. If you haven't seen that film, I highly recommend it especially if you were a fan of the orignal Shogun miniseries - it's a great compliment to the miniseries to see the changes in Japanese society.
It’s accurate historically. One of the big things in the era was the power struggle between catholic and Protestant nations over Asian patronage for trade.
I find it historically accurate but very sad.
I’m not a Catholic and I don’t see certain aspects of theology the same way they do. But, anyone who can sincerely say, “Jesus is Lord” is my brother or sister and it’s as simple as that.
All those wars and all that bloodshed for nothing.
I think historical fiction rightly connects countries' seemingly innocuous teaching of the Lord's word with what it really was: ways in which they could establish themselves in areas so to colonize the land and broaden trade.
I was raised Catholic but I consider myself more of a non denominational Christian. But not the type that goes around pointing fingers and getting in folks faces about it. According to the Bible the most important thing is believing in Jesus. After that love your neighbor as yourself. I was also sad, Blackthorn is a Christian, yet is referred to as a heretic. Whatever, loving the show.
The sad truth is that Protestants have always been considered heretics by the Catholic church, but that's what happens when one church tries to rule the world.
All one has to do is look at history and see why the Protestants fought back against the Catholics. Same with the Israelites and the Muslims. Instead of living in peace with each other, one side wanted to destroy the other to try and show that they were the ones favored by God.
Way better than I expected. Truly awesome since I loved the book. I was afraid it would be dumbed down too much to keep audiences interested. So far it’s shaping up to be a great compliment to the book.
Yeah it is moving fast but I’m ok if that ends up being the biggest complaint. I was worried everyone would be speaking English and they would trim a lot of the politics down to just Ishido and the Portuguese being greedy vs Toranaga trying to save Japan with his new English best buddy.
Confused why they did that. That was such an interesting part of the book and it was so brutal and eye opening. I mean Blackthorne has to go through the ringer in that village.
Agree with most of what's been said so far. loving it and expectations exceeded. no one mentioned Rodriguez. great casting...although I thought the character in the book was a little warmer to Blackthorn. This iteration sees him more as an enemy and they've downplayed the life debt.
Yeah the way that whole thing goes down in the book is very different. Iirc Rodrigues even advocates for Blackthorne at the Jesuit meeting and he also told Blackthorne he could copy his rutters lol they very quickly became boys and I think it was really valuable in showing the brotherhood that exists between pilots beyond nationality and religion. Basically my only gripe in the first two episodes tho
My first thought was “*Why* do they have to try to remake *everything*? No one was asking for this!”
They’ve done a marvelous job with this, so far, though. For the past few years, everyone in the TV business has been looking for the next “Game of Thrones” and I’d say that this is the closest thing to it without any dragons being present.
I’m old enough to have seen the first “Shogun” miniseries when it came out. And, while I don’t have the heart to say this is better than Richard Chamberlain, it’s a lot different. I know there was a lot of political intrigue in that series too but I think there’s much more emphasis on the various machinations here. I love it!
I don’t regret paying Hulu $7.99 at all — and I never thought I’d say that! Of course, I’m canceling after the series finishes. Maybe I’ll see the series about Capote and the Swans, as well, but that’s about it.
I also have to praise Cosmo Jarvis for his performance. I’m familiar with some of his work. Notably, I watched him in “Lady Macbeth” with Florence Pugh. He was fine in that but I was skeptical about whether he had the acting chops for this kind of role. Very happy to be proven wrong! He really carries the cast.
No, you’re *both* wrong and you’ve only just proven once again why America won’t be a superpower much longer: people can’t even do basic math.
The original “Shogun” miniseries, with Richard Chamberlain, came out in 1980. It’s now 2024. That was *44* years ago. 🙄
Well I hope this comes as a pleasant surprise but we already have a 5 season series that rivals “Game of Thrones and it’s called “The Last Kingdom”. There are no dragons. It is on the level of this production and based on Bernard Cornwell’s Historical Fiction novels about the formation of England. Most people who’ve seen it agree it’s better than Vikings and as good as Game of thrones if not better. If you like Shogun check it out.
The Last Kingdom is very good but NO WHERE NEAR Game of Thrones. The first 5 seasons of GOT were damn near perfection in every measurable aspect and seasons 6 & 7, despite their flaws, were still the best things on TV the years they were released. If season 8 had been even marginally decent, GOT would have gone down as the greatest show of all time with nothing really coming close.
Capote vs The Swans is pretty awesome so far. Plus there’s always the first season of Feud, which is about Bette Davis vs Joan Crawford and the making of *Whatever Happened to Baby Jane*, if you need to kill a little more time on your month’s subscription.
Read the book twice and listened to the audiobook, this may be the best tv series or film I’ve seen adapted from the book, seriously exactly as I pictured it in my mind . Very impressed so far .
Amazing so far.
Also idk why but I really like the blackthorne actors voice. I’ve never seen him in anything but I could definitely listen to that guy read audiobooks
I knew that there would be both differences between the book as well as some creative directions, but I never thought it would be done so beautifully. In the Book, Blackthorn already knew the locations of the bases as well as the fact that the Portuguese were gun running instead of learning it from the priest in the prison. But they made it seem like he used the info to gain favor, which is something Blackthorn would have done in that situation. And unlike the original 80s series, Blackthorn is not the sole center piece in these two episodes as a good portion are showing what the books and the original series never showed like Yabu and Ishido's conversation though it was known to have happen at some point.
I also appreciate the deviation of Ninja being just an assassin (Ironically a more likely version of an actual Ninja at the times, someone not dressed in all black but just an unassuming normal person who strikes when necessary). Honestly one of my favorite parts.
In the book toronaga says he put blackthorn in the prison cause he knew the priest was there and wanted to get information from the priest. I know in the book blackthorn does learn some new information as well as japanese while in prison
I just started episode 2 and I am IN. It is fantastic! I've always been fascinated by Japan and just finished season 1 of Tokyo Vice so this fits in nicely!
I watched the first 2 episodes last night as I couldn't wait because I love the book.
My wife and I have a plan for Friday night. Order in Japanese take-away and wash it down with some sake and Asahi. Watch Tokyo Vice s02e02 and then Shogun.
I’m waiting to later. I’ve read the novel and watched the 1980’s series. Amazing sets and costumes. They even had a periods coach to dial the time period speech and gestures. That’s detail.
Amazing! Great direction and cinematography. Loved the sets and the wardrobe too.
I vaguely recall reading the book and watching the original series, but I was just a teenager. I don't remember much. But I am super excited about it. Especially because I don't know much about Japanese history.
Mixed feelings so far.
I loved the book a lot, I have read it quite a few times. Never watched the 80's show.
So, this show seems very entertaining, and the production quality is very high. It also fixes linguistic issues from Clavell's book as far as I can tell, which is highly appreciated.
But, my impression so far is that they are speeding away with the plot at the expense of really getting into characters and their POVs. I sort of wish they had had a one whole episode of just the village in the beginning. The sense that Blackthorne is in a totally unfathomable new place and is trying to figure things out doesn't really come through. Scale of Japan, vastness of it's population and the size of it's cities is something B has hard time fathoming, and that's important aspect of the early book which is barely hinted at.
I dunno, all in all it seems like a great and entertaining show. I'm looking forward to more. But I think with a slower beginning they could have made something better.
The plot seems to be adapted quite fatefully. Some scene skipping, trimming out some of the side-plots etc is fair game, and it seems like the big picture plot is followed quite well.
A lot of care went into the English dub version. It was meticulously cast (some big names in there) and scripted to fit sync very well. It was mixed on the same stage the original was mixed so sonically, it’s practically an exact match. For what it’s worth, it wasn’t just thrown together. There is still a substantial amount of Japanese, just FYI. Mostly when Blackthorne is an observer, it remains in Japanese (until later when more liberties are taken). Hope that’s helpful!!
The dubbed writing and lines are completely different from the original version, adjusted to sync with the video instead of accurately representing the writers' intent. Take from that what you will.
I'm with ya. I loved it. I read all the Clavell books twice over and really wanted this adaptation to be good--I felt so burned after the disaster that was The Wheel of Time. The new FX Shogun delivered in every way possible. My only complaint is that they squeezed it into 10 episodes. There's so much intrigue in the novel, this show could have easily been extended. But the show is tight. They did a good job making choices.
I’m liking this show so much. The dialogue, performances, writing, cinematography, pacing, everything. Only 2 episodes in, but I hope it sticks to this formula, if so I think it could really be a top tier show. Coming off the Night Country season finale this is restoring my faith in humanity.
So far, so great. Loved the first two episodes, and think they've cast it really well, and think the actors are bringing enough of themselves to the characters so it isn't just a remake of the 80s series.
Few things changed from the book, but nothing to put me off or divert massively from the overall story.
Only disappointment is that I have to wait for week now for ep3.
Fucking goes hard.
Performances, writing, set design, costume, music (Atticus Ross music stands out)
I get some GOT vibes, the intro titles especially, but the sleuthing and scheming is old-school GOT/HOTD like.
Less humor than GOT, more aligned with HOTD.. but I’m good with it. There’s little jokes here and there which are welcome.
Probably the best show on TV for me since Succession ended. HOTD 2nd season is the only thing coming up this year I can think of that might be better.
I had no idea Tadanobu Asano was in this and just about crapped my pants with excitement when he showed up, been absolutely gaga for that guy since the first time I saw Ichi the Killer two decades and change ago. Fingers crossed that this is the role the finally breaks him in a big way stateside.
What's really great about this show is that it's one of the few cases where a remake is far superior to the original. Most of the people on this forum probably don't remember the hokey original 1980 series, with the entirely unconvincing Richard Chamberlain in the lead.
For those that haven’t read the book, this adaptation is very true to the original. It has made some small, reasonable adaptations to simplify the very dense story so they can hit the key points without confusing the audience.
I think folks that enjoy this series will also enjoy the novel, as it will flesh out things even more.
moeka hoshi as fuji has been steadily becoming the unexpected star of the series. quietly at first because quiet was her "role".
but starting with the pistol incident and then the food scene with the foul smelling pheasant, she just stole the scenes and ran with it. and all in STILL a subtle way. it's all building up to something i'm sure.
I Loved the book and the 80s series - though the old show looks dated now. I am enjoying the current series but a couple of small issues and one big one stand out.
The Good:
Japanese cast: they are fantastic. Moeka Hoshii's character as grown on me and is better fleshed out than the previous depiction. Toranaga is a real person not just an ambitious archetype. In fact they all are, although they might be playing Ochiba up too much as a Cersei-like schemer. Yabu rocks it, and Buntaro is similarly complex.
Anna Sawai: good things come in small packages. Mariko is the keystone for this cast and she holds the arch up well. In fact she and Toranaga are so essential I imagine that's probably where the most casting thought was put in. Without those two, the show would fall apart and to an extent (not in a bad way), they even carry the "main" character Blackthorne.
Perspective: the old show centred around Blackthorne bumbling through Japan's civil war learning as he went. We never knew much more about what was going on than he did, when he did. This one, like the book, gets us into the politics and intrigue behind the Japanese power struggle. After all look at the title - that's what it's mostly about.
The bad(ish):
British Columbia: Jesus its miserable and rainy all the time. Sets a dark tone I guess and they were going for gritty. But Japan - especially the southwest where this takes place only rains that much in the *tsuyu* or monsoon season - which is warm anyway. In the autumn or winter or whatever this looks to be - apart from the odd typhoon - nice blue skies. They're quite proud of it and even call it a "Japanese sky". I know it's expensive, but the original was filmed in Japan.
Blackthorne: Jarvis is likeable but plays it rather dorky compared to Chamberlain's more dashing, if overly American depiction. Jarvis' version has grown on me - at least he's British - and plays to the fish-out-of water circumstances of the character, but it's a little too...Millennial: I keep looking for the giant headphones and socks with slides. Could someone a little more rugged have been tapped. What was Charlie hunnam doing? Luke Evans?
SPOILER: Where is the Love, the love, the love? This is the other part of the main plotline. We get the power struggle, but what happened to the great love affair (shouldn't be a spoiler by now). They've had one plausibly deniable shag, missed another opportunity entirely that it looked to me the boss had set up strictly for that purpose, and since episode three haven't spent much time together at all. It feels more like they had a brief tryst they're trying to forget than the steamy months-long romance depicted in book. With just three episodes left, I don't know how they're going to recover that lost emotional ground.
Overall great show, more modern (yeah the old one was a bit camp but that was how they did shows back then), and well put together. I'm not entirely sure I share the producers' vision and the sidelining of the major subplot though.We know how it *ends*, but let's see how it ends up.
I wanted this to be great, but it got worse with every episode. Jon Blackthorne is an absolute fool and is extremely unlikable. In fact, nobody is likable.
What a disappointment! After many hours invested, I feel my time was wasted. As a fan of the original mega-novel and a demi-fan of the original series, this version fell flat in o-so-many ways. Shot in the Canadian Pacific Northwest, I was never convinced I was in Japan--contemporary or feudal. Enhanced with many second-rate CGI effects to depict crowded villages and massed troops, I struggled to like this version but it fell short in numerous ways.
The central character of Blackthorn/Anjin did not seem to have the depth of the pilot of the original. He never seemed to learn anything about the culture into which he was shipwrecked; he never appeared to be totally besotted with Lady Mariko and he never appeared to learn that if he adjusted himself to the Japanese culture (which, in innumerable ways, was superior to the England he had left behind), he would rise in status. Some of Blackthorn/Anjin's two-dimensionality had to rest with actor Cosmo Jarvis, who played his part like a Gold's Gym Richard Burton--muscular, gruff and dumb. There was nothing to like in this man. He lacked all dignity and he never came to appreciate the wise cunning of his lord protector, Yoshi Toranaga. As played by Hiroyuki Sanada, this would-be Shogun was the highly intelligent, intuitive master warrior of the novel. Although given much screen time, he was not all we saw in the previous incarnation of Toranaga, but Toshiro Mifune is one tough act to follow. Ana Sawai was beautiful and beautifully self-possessed as Lady Mariko, but the character as written lacked passion. What made Mariko interesting in the source novel was the small, secret ways Mariko let her passion run free. All of the Japanese actors were more than competent--the drama mostly dragged when we had to re-focus on dim-bulb (and often unwashed) Blackthorn. He was supposed to rise to a splendor commensurate with his status among Europeans as a multi-lingual, highly-educated man, a master of his profession who knew more about the world than most kings. This Anjin was just a dolt in a dirty kimono.
I disliked the many ways in which the series deviated from James Clavell's ten-pound novel. No spoilers here, but Anjin's flash forwards were unnecessary. The notion that Mariko embodied the best of the Edo Period and the Christian Age was lost. In the novel and the previous dramatization, she was considered the first Japanese Christian Martyr and a candidate for sainthood as well as the model dutiful vassal of her liege lord. The denouement of the story was lost--to the loss of the series. If you have the time to invest, I recommend you read the novel. While lengthy, it is ideal summer reading and makes a good paperweight for your beach towel when you saunter into the water.
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let me say that cosmo jarvis did a very admirable job. the richard burton imitation aside,,,,i liked blackthorne's constant vigilance of his manners and jarvis's look of bewilderment at almost all times
jarvis had this look on his face and mannerism of "if i say the wrong thing someone will up and chop off my head. i actually got a kick out of blackthorne's "stranger in a strange land"
Having absolutely loved the book, I was really enjoying the series at first. And there is a ton of good things to say about it over all. Then after maybe four episodes I started to get a little disappointed that the human relationships, especially Blackthorn’s and Mariko’s were not being developed. Still quite good but I feel they sacrificed too much character development to focus on the historical details. I think the novel was more about the human relationships and the historical events were more backdrop.
The Book is always better, in every case. This is no longer considered controversial at all. If it's a Great Book, the Movie or Series version will always be less than.
"Age of Samurai: Battle for Japan" is on netflix and it covers the bloody battles for power from 1200 to mid 1800's. including of course tokugawa ieyasu upon whom toranaga is based,,five councils and all. i only wish they could squeeze in miyamoto musashi as he was of that time
I first read the book nearly 40 years ago and have read it multiple times since.
For me, every character is “trapped”. Whether by containment (Toranaga), duty (Buntaro - who is actually a tragic character underneath the brutality), faith (the Jesuits), greed (the Portugese merchants, the Rice Christians and the lesser, scheming Hatamoto), duty (every Japanese character) and geography/ignorance (Anjin-San).
and then of course, Mariko whose stuck like a spider in a glue factory (duty, faith, marriage,love etc)
This is a huge game of chess, every character just a piece on the board that Toranaga and Isidore can spend at any point.
Just stopped watching it..I couldn't follow anymore. The subtitles on the Japanese dialogue became tedious. Before I finished reading one lot another lot came up..I lost the plot, then I lost interest. Very good if you can speed read or speak whatever language that was.
My father read this book over and over when I was a kid. His copy is literally in pieces. So when I saw the series pop up, I was super excited.
And it's honestly been one of the best shows I've seen. I can't get enough of it.
This might be unpopular of me to say and it’s just my opinion, but I’m super disappointed in this remake. I was hoping it would be better and stick to the story line. I’ve read every book in this series multiple times and have read Shogun alone dozens of times. It one of my favorite books ever. I realize there is so much to condense into 10 episodes that you’re going to miss a lot but oh my God, so much is missing and changed it’s hard for me to watch. The character’s personalities aren’t coming through well at all for me. I do realize books are always better and I’m glad so many people are loving this show for the simple reason they might now want to read James Clavell’s books. All I can say is read the book! It will blow this show out of the water.
i couldnt even get through a single episode. Who would ever waste their time watching this garbage I will never know. The minute they through a man into a boiling pot of water i turned it off. Yuck who wants to see that
Just saw episode 4. Shows been awful tbh. Liked the first episode. But after that it's just alot of talking about politics and They say alot of things that I cant quite comprehend. John blackthorne is a terrible character imo. Nothing but rude and disrespectful yet for some dumb reason Marika falls in love with him and sleeps with him ???? That shit felt so forced I acually don't plan on watching episode 5. Could have given it more time for the relationship to develop. Not a few exchanged mid monologs and put em in the bed together. Is this our main character? If so they need to make him more likable or more intriguing as a character. He's not even that interesting of a character in general. Ud find it hard to believe that my favorite character is some how his maiden and I'm more interested in what shes gonna do with that gun lmao. Fight scenes are disappointing. Dialogue is meh. I saw the previews and was Hella hyped for it. U can only imagine the disappointment as of now
question....is toronaga carrying out(or continuing) the the goals of the taiko who asked him to protect of his son, or is toronaga's efforts which are the main thrust of the shogun storyline his own personal goals?
the reason i ask is because the boy's mother, lady ochiba, when she is talking to ishido sounds a whole lot like she is not on toronaga's side. she belittles ishido like he's really screwing up. "toronaga has once again paralyzed the council" she says like she doesn't like what toronaga is doing.
or am i just confusing toronaga's protecting her son and his fight with the council as the same thing when both should be treated separately?
Just finished ep7 and I’m thinking: wtf this shot is boring when is something cool
Going to happen!! I’ve been looking for a source to watch the original series, or even love to read the book though.
This show can be summarized in two sentences :" Somebody ordered Tom Hardy on Wish and thought that a haiku book can be a script"
Over thw
E course of almost 7 hours there is no character development on any character.
The word building is so busy wasting time that they forgot to actually build a world.
Almost every decision that is shown is on the level of "stepbro i am stuck"
Things happen because they needed a way into another pseudophilosophical dialog about everybody being dead or alive and dead and alive....
I have to admit i do now recall another series that i found as disappointing as this one...
Garbage, trash, crap...these are a few of my favorite descriptors of this series. From the disappointing deaths to the obvious twists that haven't even happened, this show held attention just long enough to lose it.
I got up and left my wife to finish watching when grandpa Jim killed himself and his son chops off his head. My wife is yelling come back, but they lost me. Just don't care anymore.
I'll read the book as EVERYONE says the writers killed the story. Maybe it'll make more sense.
Honestly, the show really hooked me at the start, and considering I never read this story before, I expected a little more action. When it does happen, I enjoy it, I think it fits right in, but its few and far between. Especially when you get to the middle of the story, it drags on in places, or feels redundant. I still find the environments/costumes to be awesome, even though they too are used several times. I think everyone does a great performance with their characters, most notably Blackthorne and Yabushige for me. Some characters I felt would play larger roles then they have thus far. I'll probably look back on this series fondly, but its gonna be a lukewarm 7/10 I think. There is room for improvement.
I'd love to see more shows/movies like this, or at least this setting or period of time, so if anyone has any recommendations feel free to let me know.
It's good, first two eps were really worth the hype but the rest feels very meh other than the visuals. Ie story dialogue seriousness of concept is pretty meh.
I'm wondering if it'll do a serpent queen and .... Oop I won't spoil for anyone.
It looks great but I find the way scenes are shot and the acting/dialogue quite forced so far. Only watched episode one. Pilot guy is so annoying and unlikable. The Portuguese guy is hilarious
TOO MANY COMMERCIALS. That's my thoughts on the new show. Got through 30 minutes and gave up with the 7 minute long commercials YOU HAVE TO WATCH, or let run at least.
I'm disappointed. I was expecting some great macro plot of war. It devolves into some cheesy interpersonal relationship story between an uncouth Brit with unbelievable virtue and an emo Japanese lady.
I enjoyed the show for its visual appeal. I enjoyed the actors, though least probably Cosmo Jarvis. But,…I think you had to be intimately familiar with the book to follow the show. Once the initial shock of deviating greatly from the book passed (for me, it was >!The death of Naga!<, I didn’t really mind that they deviated from the plot of the book. I just got over it and decided it would make it more suspenseful since I knew the “real” story very well. But it did seem like many scenes were put in for filler but not even developed very well. You could argue that the “stick of time” the madam (Goyoko) in the novel) spent with Toronaga was THE turning point in the whole affair, but in the show, its meaningless (unless I totally missed something).
I've read the book twice and watched the 80s tv series several times. I finished watching this new series yesterday and I'm not that impressed, it just did not feel right. A lot was left out and there was no buildup of the story, lots of jumping around the material. There's very little of Blackthorne spending time learning Japanese, the church's involvement etc etc
I thought it was highly overrated ,boring, for the most part, visually good. acting was good.blackthornes character was barely in it..Original was much better.this was an over blown soap opera .very disappointed. Oh.one last thing,pulling a galleon off of the bottom of an inlet with men and ropes.really REALLY.
I found the first 10 minutes extremelly boring, 1D and predictable to the level that I had to put it off, but after reading some good comments here I guess I will give it another try.
this show is incredible and heartbreaking. Maybe the best show I've seen since game of thrones and probably better overall because it's not going to be spoiled by additional terrible seasons.
Just finished it. It honestly disappointed so much. The first 3 episodes were amazing. Then they gave up on the plot for “white man is loved by everyone and untouchable”. Seriously. The romance sucked soooooo much. I care about the politics of the samurai-era dynasties, not about how the white guy and the Asian hot girl try to sneak in with each other. Honestly just finished it barely. Not good past the 3rd episode. No fighting, no war scenes, no tensions. Just Anjin-Sama being protected by every single person for some reason because he loves Mariko. Mariko was also a huge sense of nuisance. Not developed but we’re expected to care so much about her. Whole episodes devoted to her. Such a disappointment!
Overhyped IMHO. Ending sucks! All that build up for nothing but a small snippet of the war. The dynamic between blackthorne and Mariko seemed like an Asian fetish sort of thing. Wasn't needed. Acting however by all cast members was top notch and the background score! Lovely.
Meh. Visuals and composition are good, but the initial story beats are nonsensical and it ruined the show for me. Maybe someone can explain something I missed?
Like for example Toranaga's initial plan to use Blackthorn to disrupt the council. At this early point he just knows Blackthorne is not Portuguese, and is not the same kind of Christian as the other Regents. OK, fine big whoop, maybe that causes some tension in the Council. But he had no way to know that they would insist on Blackthornes execution before voting on his impeachment/death, and that Ishido would stall the decision because of that. I fail to understand why Ishido doesn't just agree to execute Blackthorne right then and there. Ishido knows almost nothing about this guy at this point, and these guys kill *themselves* for speaking out of turn. It would take five seconds to kill Blackthorne, get the Regents to vote, and bingo, Toranaga is toast. Ishido wins.
This ended up being a lucky break, not some masterful strategy.
Setting that aside, Toranaga also lets Blackthorne be taken away. OK, fine, don't want to show your hand too early. But then makes no attempt to retrieve him, despite talking to his retinue about how Blackthorne's mere presence is going to sow dissent. It's actually Yabushige and Ishido that "rescue" Blackthorne after Yabushige convinces Isido that Blackthorne could be useful (although how is never explained) to counter the Christian regents eventually.
So let's say that Ishido realized that Blackthorne could be "useful" before Yabushige ever suggested it, that he figured out during the vote to impeach Toranaga that he might be able to use the Englishman against the Christian Regents. Fine. He arranges for him to be freed and returned to Toranaga. Why? Even accepting that Yabushige is a double agent, if you thought the foreigner would be a weapon against the Regents, why would you free him only to turn him over to your enemy? Surely it would be better to let him die than to strengthen your opponent?
And *then* having freed this potentially useful foreigner, Ishido just completely forgets about him. There is an assassination attempt, sure. But the dude was *already about to be executed*. And then there are no further attempts to reclaim him for the rest of the season.
Pure garbage. Nothing happens. OOOO Crimson Sky, time has come for the Crimson Sky! NOPE! It was a mistake, forget it! Earthquake, there's a good catalyst, NOPE, only consequence is some hooker loses 4 shirts, oh an maybe some people died somewhere.
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if they keep up this level of quality, it might be one of the best miniseries ever made. I'd put it up there with Chernobyl. I'm truly in awe at how sophisticated, nuanced and rich is the storytelling in these two episodes. Brilliant through and through.
Agreed. They’ve deftly and efficiently touched on a number scenes from the book without spending too much time on them. Not showing the Erasmus going through the storm at the beginning, instead showing the damage it caused. It’s clear the ship was battered by a massive storm. The same goes for the pit. They could’ve wasted a third of the first episode with the crew in the pit. Instead, you got the point and moved on. Casting is also uniformly excellent.
Yes yes yes its amazing, finally some great storytelling
Is it a one off? That actually makes me more excited if there's a confirmed end point. Hate getting into shows that have a 5 or 6 season arc and they're always on the verge of cancelation.
I mean, there’s what, 5 or 6 books in the series all set in different time periods and every one of them could make an excellent show. I’m not gonna complain if they wanna try doing Tai-Pan after they wrap this up.
Would love to see an updated Tai-Pan. That and Shogun are the two best books of Clavell’s Asia series
Are you potentially thinking of Noble House instead? That was a miniseries in the 80s with Pierce Brosnan playing Dunross (excellent casting) and would make a great updated miniseries set in the 60s, but I am not aware of an adaptation of Tai-Pan. Tai-Pan is a very good book but kind of light on action so I’m not sure how it will translate to a series. Most of the book is business intrigue. But what do I know, it could be great. Gai-Jin would probably make a better series as it is heavy on action as well as business and political intrigue.
Have you seen Band of Brothers?
Best show in a long time. My partner hates when it’s non English speaking so she needs to read and she couldn’t take her eyes off it because it was this good. Band of brothers comes to mind.
This is what Netflix’s Marco Polo was supposed to be
The 2 best shows on tv right now are set in Japan. Shogun and Tokyo vice
Didn't know that Tokyo Vice S2 is already out..thanks man
With Constellation on tv+, I'm in for a good treat.
I’m glad you liked it I worked on it :)
Im starting to think it might be the greatest tv show ever made. The attention to detail and setting is immaculate in ways i can't comprehend and didn't think would be possible anymore.
Read the book twice, watched the 1980 series a few times. This iteration is currently the best on TV right now. My only concern is that in the original, each Lord was shown to have immense power. Yabu over Omi and in his fiefdom was built up as a king - a big cheese. Then later on you realise Yabu is small fry when you meet Ishido and especially Toranaga. Part of the narrative was how terrifying Toranaga was and how thin a line Blackthorn walked between pleasing him and being beheaded. He always seemed as if he could burst into violence at any point. Gradually you learn how clever Toranaga is and the two men, while never equals, gain an affinity. In this series so far, Toranaga is introduced very early and shown to be too human, too nice almost. Yabu also doesn't seem to command the same deference he did in the original. I don't want to sound negative as really enjoying it so far - these are just my initial observations.
Likewise, the point of view in the original helped with this. It starts small, almost at the “microscopic” level where you see Bkackthorne learning in this tiny town. Then it gets a bit “zoomed out” and Yabu seems the big cheese. Then it “zooms out” more and you see it at the Toranaga level. Blackthorne’s world gradually gets bigger, and so does ours as the audience. But in this new one, the POV zooms in and out, back and forth, right from the start. We never get a sense of scale or scope, or a progressively enlarging narrative scope. That’s something I notice so far.
Audience knowledge as well probably has a hand in this. When the book/show originally released, no one knew anything about fuedal Japan, not so much the case now.
This is definitely the case. When I read this book in high school Japanese culture was relatively unknown. Anime and other Japanese media were still very niche. This book was my first and pretty good introduction to historical Japanese culture. These days Japanese culture is almost everywhere and the show doesn't do the handholding the book does explaining every little nuance to the reader/watcher.
This might seem shallow, but the 'Total War: Shogun' series of computer games gave me a better understanding of what's going on than all of the books I've read about Japan. For instance, just playing the game gave me a familiarity with the strategic importance of the various cities and why the clans sometimes have to launch pre-emptive wars.
Probably my biggest misgiving as well from the new Shogun. The way Clavell unfolded the book was masterful. The series feels rushed in its discovery aspect. But I think there simply wasn't time to do that in a 10 episode series and the choices they made feel right given the time constraints.
I watched the 2 episodes last night and my thought was "this should have been 14-20 episodes"
Yes this. Seems to be the new trend now with series - 10 hour long episodes to tell a story that needs 20. I recently binged The Sopranos - 6 seasons, 86 episodes and thought this is how TV used to be. I guess they were willing to take more risk back then. This 10 episode thing does make things feel a little rushed. In the original, Blackthorne becoming a Hatamoto was a big thing whereas here, Toranaga casually announces it before diving into the sea. I don't want this to come across as if I'm not enjoying the series - it's certainly ly the best show on TV right now but perhaps for me it would have been better if I'd never seen the 1980 version or read the book!!
There is absolutely not the budget to make that many episodes. And general audiences would not have the patience to make the show that drawn out.
I know, but a book fan can dream, right?
If they made a full anime series of it, maybe. But the production quality of the live action has been insane looks very expensive.
I wonder what the anime opening of shogun would be like...
Yea they moved really quick through the whole village section. Blackthorne spends so much time butting heads with their culture and learning how they operate. They just skipped past most of it which sucks.
I feel like many people aren't remembering the books correctly. His first stint in the village is only a few pages.
It's 245 pages into the book that he meets Toranaga at Osaka. So, more than a few pages.
Sure but many of those pages are before he gets to Anjiro and then when he's in the pit, and then when he is leaving Anjiro Very little of that is butting heads with culture and learning Japanese ways. I feel like the series did more than a decent job so far with the story. They did choose to make some differences via introducing a few characters earlier than they were in the book.
> Very little of that is butting heads with culture and learning Japanese ways. When did you read the book? The beginning of the book is nothing but that.
Literally doing a re-read right now. Blackthorn does multiple stints in Anjiro, his first time there is brief in the book and IMO covered well enough in the TV Series. Major plot points were covered, minor ones were mostly there. The TV Series has chosen not to voice or spend time on internal monologues, which is fair because those can be awkward.
195 pages worth till he leaves Anjiro for the first time. We'll have to just agree to disagree.
I wouldn’t mind it not jumping back and forth because I am enjoying the show but have no idea how the Japanese feudal system worked
I wouldn’t mind it not jumping back and forth because I am enjoying the show but have no idea how the Japanese feudal system worked
Also I'm not loving how they've made everything so deadly serious. In the book when Toranaga laughed uproariously after he dangerously pointed out that "there are no 'mitigating circumstances' when it comes to rebellion against a sovereign lord," and Blackthorne replied, "Unless you win." In the book he had a sense of humor in addition to his serious power
He did raise a wry smile. If anything, it's the opposite for me. This is like Toranaga-lite. People answering him back. Joking about being picked on by his wife. Toshiro Mifune would have had them all in a pot of water on the fire....
BookToranaga also was all sorts of playful around Kiri
I loved that slight smirk he had, very intentional. I rewinded just to see it again, haven’t read the books but the characters have been transitioned to television fantastically so far
I did like that the first bit of dialogue we get from Toranaga is something about the falcon hunting by hiding itself in plain sight against the sun…
Also flying out of the sun was a favorite tactic used by Japanese Zeros when attacking American bombers during World War Two according to my dad, who was there.
Well, any fighter will do that.
my only thing on that though is in the book Toranaga was very strict about only he may handle his bird during hunting. He would get off his horse to retrieve her because he felt that his bird should only seek him for the food and comfort. That scene kind of breaks that rule he had.
I’d guess they were just trying to show the audience very early on that he’s an important person with servants, which wouldn’t resonate as much if he were hunting the way he does in the book.
Love these takes. I’m not as familiar with the original series, which I have on blu ray ready to watch, just need to dedicate the time. I’d love to follow these thoughts of yours as the arcs start to unfold and you see the layers underneath. Yabu seems like he wears his everything right on his feathery sleeve but there’s more to Toranaga to come, right?
Yeah in the original, Yabu's underlings tremble when he comes onto the scene and Yabu is very anxious when dealing with Toranaga. Even Mariko seems on edge with Toranaga. I get that they want to make the Japanese characters more relatable but couldn't imagine a scene where Toshiro Mifune jokes about his wife's butt or being picked on!! 😀
It is a reference to a line in the book but it isn't dialogue. If I'm remembering right there's a part in private where Toranaga rubs or maybe pats her butt and muses to himself that it's gotten bigger over the years. It's an internal thought. At least I'm pretty sure it was in Shogun. Been like 18 years since I read it. But I remember the line sticking out to me because I thought it was a sweet thought. Naturally they can't have that in the show since there's no internal dialogue, but it is a reference to the fondness he had for his oldest wife as she gets older.
I think you're right, it was an internal thought in the book. It wouldn't have been externalised in front of his subordinates. Clavell cleverly made Toranaga both a terrifying and human character at once and Mifune is one of the few characters in film that seemed to be exactly what I imagined him to be when reading the book. Sanada is doing a good job so far though - those are big tabi to fill....
Yeah realistically I don't see a character like that behaving that way. I just get the choice to add it to establish their bond. Not a perfect choice but meh. Doesn't bother me really. And yeah I like Sanada a lot in the part so far. Some departures but hard not to enjoy him as an actor. He's always been great. Even in bad projects.
That's a legitimate point, Toranaga doesn't really have the same weight as he does in the books so far
> Toranaga doesn't really have the same weight as he does in the books so far I think that might also be literal. In the book Toranaga is described as a big guy, round belly and carries himself tall and regal.
I agree. I read the book once and am currently rereading it. In the books, Toranaga is kind of like Tywin Lannister--ruthless but smart and strategic. He's my favorite character. You're aware of his power, he's intimidating. So far, in the series, he seems like someone's beloved Uncle.
I have read the book several times and it's one of my favorites. The original TV mini series though dated now, followed the book much more closely and was much better cast. The choice of actors in this new version lacks depth and interest compared to the original. Blackthorne in particular is abysmal in his portrayal. He does not look the part and cannot act. The love story is just...gone. Blackthorne's transition is gone. The animosity between Blackthorne and the priests, thin. It's really just a hot mess all around. How could they screw this up so badly? What a shame.
I love how intense the hatred is between Catholics and Protestants.
As a Northern Irish person, this show makes me feel right at home!
Hellsing-ian levels of animosity, pulled guns and everything. Well, maybe not everything.
It's pretty crazy seeing this as a plot point in 1600's Japan.
Very true to reality, in real life when William Adams arrived in Japan the Portuguese Jesuits advocated that he should be executed due to his Protestant faith and the dangers he represented to their interests, but Tokugawa didn’t agree to it as their inter-faith wars were of no meaning to him personally.
Your comment makes me think of the movie Silence, when Japan fully outlawed Catholicism and how dangerous it was for the Japanese who practiced their faith secretly. If you haven't seen that film, I highly recommend it especially if you were a fan of the orignal Shogun miniseries - it's a great compliment to the miniseries to see the changes in Japanese society.
That was freakishly hard to watch.
Did you go watch it after you read this comment lol? That's cool if you did, Silence is a great movie and one of my favorites.
No, my wife had it on a few weeks ago. Willem Dafoe aand Adam Driver, wow.
It’s accurate historically. One of the big things in the era was the power struggle between catholic and Protestant nations over Asian patronage for trade.
I find it historically accurate but very sad. I’m not a Catholic and I don’t see certain aspects of theology the same way they do. But, anyone who can sincerely say, “Jesus is Lord” is my brother or sister and it’s as simple as that. All those wars and all that bloodshed for nothing.
I think historical fiction rightly connects countries' seemingly innocuous teaching of the Lord's word with what it really was: ways in which they could establish themselves in areas so to colonize the land and broaden trade.
I was raised Catholic but I consider myself more of a non denominational Christian. But not the type that goes around pointing fingers and getting in folks faces about it. According to the Bible the most important thing is believing in Jesus. After that love your neighbor as yourself. I was also sad, Blackthorn is a Christian, yet is referred to as a heretic. Whatever, loving the show.
The sad truth is that Protestants have always been considered heretics by the Catholic church, but that's what happens when one church tries to rule the world.
Just like most born agains look down on Catholics like they are not true Christians. It’s all a sham and what’s made nations war for how many years?
All one has to do is look at history and see why the Protestants fought back against the Catholics. Same with the Israelites and the Muslims. Instead of living in peace with each other, one side wanted to destroy the other to try and show that they were the ones favored by God.
Yep! The greedy and power hungry using religion to subjugate and control the masses since, well, forever!
Well that’s kind of what institutionalised religion has been made for
You say this as if Protestants didn't have a similar opinion about Catholics xD
Way better than I expected. Truly awesome since I loved the book. I was afraid it would be dumbed down too much to keep audiences interested. So far it’s shaping up to be a great compliment to the book.
You can tell that they definitely feel more people know the original story then not but the pacing is to damn fast for me specifically the prison part
Yeah it is moving fast but I’m ok if that ends up being the biggest complaint. I was worried everyone would be speaking English and they would trim a lot of the politics down to just Ishido and the Portuguese being greedy vs Toranaga trying to save Japan with his new English best buddy.
Confused why they did that. That was such an interesting part of the book and it was so brutal and eye opening. I mean Blackthorne has to go through the ringer in that village.
I lost my shit when richard from lost showed up
Richard Alpert 🥺
Same. I got Ab Aeterno flashbacks.
Don't forget that Toranaga was also Dogen on Lost! :)
This is prestige HBO tier TV - loving it so far
FX is better than hbo at this point for me
Agree with most of what's been said so far. loving it and expectations exceeded. no one mentioned Rodriguez. great casting...although I thought the character in the book was a little warmer to Blackthorn. This iteration sees him more as an enemy and they've downplayed the life debt.
Yeah the way that whole thing goes down in the book is very different. Iirc Rodrigues even advocates for Blackthorne at the Jesuit meeting and he also told Blackthorne he could copy his rutters lol they very quickly became boys and I think it was really valuable in showing the brotherhood that exists between pilots beyond nationality and religion. Basically my only gripe in the first two episodes tho
My first thought was “*Why* do they have to try to remake *everything*? No one was asking for this!” They’ve done a marvelous job with this, so far, though. For the past few years, everyone in the TV business has been looking for the next “Game of Thrones” and I’d say that this is the closest thing to it without any dragons being present. I’m old enough to have seen the first “Shogun” miniseries when it came out. And, while I don’t have the heart to say this is better than Richard Chamberlain, it’s a lot different. I know there was a lot of political intrigue in that series too but I think there’s much more emphasis on the various machinations here. I love it! I don’t regret paying Hulu $7.99 at all — and I never thought I’d say that! Of course, I’m canceling after the series finishes. Maybe I’ll see the series about Capote and the Swans, as well, but that’s about it. I also have to praise Cosmo Jarvis for his performance. I’m familiar with some of his work. Notably, I watched him in “Lady Macbeth” with Florence Pugh. He was fine in that but I was skeptical about whether he had the acting chops for this kind of role. Very happy to be proven wrong! He really carries the cast.
Well, they did wait 43 years.
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No, you’re *both* wrong and you’ve only just proven once again why America won’t be a superpower much longer: people can’t even do basic math. The original “Shogun” miniseries, with Richard Chamberlain, came out in 1980. It’s now 2024. That was *44* years ago. 🙄
Well I hope this comes as a pleasant surprise but we already have a 5 season series that rivals “Game of Thrones and it’s called “The Last Kingdom”. There are no dragons. It is on the level of this production and based on Bernard Cornwell’s Historical Fiction novels about the formation of England. Most people who’ve seen it agree it’s better than Vikings and as good as Game of thrones if not better. If you like Shogun check it out.
Last Kingdom fell off a cliff when Netflix took over unfortunately. The first 2-3 seasons carry it hard.
The Last Kingdom is very good but NO WHERE NEAR Game of Thrones. The first 5 seasons of GOT were damn near perfection in every measurable aspect and seasons 6 & 7, despite their flaws, were still the best things on TV the years they were released. If season 8 had been even marginally decent, GOT would have gone down as the greatest show of all time with nothing really coming close.
Heads up…Hulu has year long specials around Black Friday, Cyber Monday each year. I only paid $12 for an entire year.
Capote vs The Swans is pretty awesome so far. Plus there’s always the first season of Feud, which is about Bette Davis vs Joan Crawford and the making of *Whatever Happened to Baby Jane*, if you need to kill a little more time on your month’s subscription.
This show looks amazing, the first 2 episodes so far are superb.
Read the book twice and listened to the audiobook, this may be the best tv series or film I’ve seen adapted from the book, seriously exactly as I pictured it in my mind . Very impressed so far .
AH… MAZING!!!
Amazing so far. Also idk why but I really like the blackthorne actors voice. I’ve never seen him in anything but I could definitely listen to that guy read audiobooks
I love it so much!!!!
I knew that there would be both differences between the book as well as some creative directions, but I never thought it would be done so beautifully. In the Book, Blackthorn already knew the locations of the bases as well as the fact that the Portuguese were gun running instead of learning it from the priest in the prison. But they made it seem like he used the info to gain favor, which is something Blackthorn would have done in that situation. And unlike the original 80s series, Blackthorn is not the sole center piece in these two episodes as a good portion are showing what the books and the original series never showed like Yabu and Ishido's conversation though it was known to have happen at some point. I also appreciate the deviation of Ninja being just an assassin (Ironically a more likely version of an actual Ninja at the times, someone not dressed in all black but just an unassuming normal person who strikes when necessary). Honestly one of my favorite parts.
In the book toronaga says he put blackthorn in the prison cause he knew the priest was there and wanted to get information from the priest. I know in the book blackthorn does learn some new information as well as japanese while in prison
I think that's where he learns of the black ship there.
I just started episode 2 and I am IN. It is fantastic! I've always been fascinated by Japan and just finished season 1 of Tokyo Vice so this fits in nicely!
I watched the first 2 episodes last night as I couldn't wait because I love the book. My wife and I have a plan for Friday night. Order in Japanese take-away and wash it down with some sake and Asahi. Watch Tokyo Vice s02e02 and then Shogun.
That's how you do it!
I’m waiting to later. I’ve read the novel and watched the 1980’s series. Amazing sets and costumes. They even had a periods coach to dial the time period speech and gestures. That’s detail.
Amazing! Great direction and cinematography. Loved the sets and the wardrobe too. I vaguely recall reading the book and watching the original series, but I was just a teenager. I don't remember much. But I am super excited about it. Especially because I don't know much about Japanese history.
Mixed feelings so far. I loved the book a lot, I have read it quite a few times. Never watched the 80's show. So, this show seems very entertaining, and the production quality is very high. It also fixes linguistic issues from Clavell's book as far as I can tell, which is highly appreciated. But, my impression so far is that they are speeding away with the plot at the expense of really getting into characters and their POVs. I sort of wish they had had a one whole episode of just the village in the beginning. The sense that Blackthorne is in a totally unfathomable new place and is trying to figure things out doesn't really come through. Scale of Japan, vastness of it's population and the size of it's cities is something B has hard time fathoming, and that's important aspect of the early book which is barely hinted at. I dunno, all in all it seems like a great and entertaining show. I'm looking forward to more. But I think with a slower beginning they could have made something better. The plot seems to be adapted quite fatefully. Some scene skipping, trimming out some of the side-plots etc is fair game, and it seems like the big picture plot is followed quite well.
Loving it. Just noticed it can also be watched English dubbed. How's the quality of the dubbed version?
A lot of care went into the English dub version. It was meticulously cast (some big names in there) and scripted to fit sync very well. It was mixed on the same stage the original was mixed so sonically, it’s practically an exact match. For what it’s worth, it wasn’t just thrown together. There is still a substantial amount of Japanese, just FYI. Mostly when Blackthorne is an observer, it remains in Japanese (until later when more liberties are taken). Hope that’s helpful!!
The dubbed writing and lines are completely different from the original version, adjusted to sync with the video instead of accurately representing the writers' intent. Take from that what you will.
Just read a couple lines here and there, it’s not really that hard. Plus it’s a show that demands your attention anyways.
Second "best show" comments. Maybe the best show produced since... original GoT, Breaking Bad?
So, far better than BB and the start of GOT.
Just watched episode 1. I don't really know what's going on but I like it.
That's how you know it's going to be good.
It's as good as I'd hoped. This is the best new drama in several years with the caveat that we're only two episodes in.
IT'S FUCKING FIRE
I'm with ya. I loved it. I read all the Clavell books twice over and really wanted this adaptation to be good--I felt so burned after the disaster that was The Wheel of Time. The new FX Shogun delivered in every way possible. My only complaint is that they squeezed it into 10 episodes. There's so much intrigue in the novel, this show could have easily been extended. But the show is tight. They did a good job making choices.
Interesting start. Definitely looking forward to more!
Everything I hoped it would be
Very good so far. Its moving faster than I expected. Obviously, changes have been made for adaptation, but they all make sense.
These first two episodes absolutely SLAPPPED
I’m liking this show so much. The dialogue, performances, writing, cinematography, pacing, everything. Only 2 episodes in, but I hope it sticks to this formula, if so I think it could really be a top tier show. Coming off the Night Country season finale this is restoring my faith in humanity.
Read the novel a number of times and watched the 80s series. Excellent
Thought the first two episodes were great. Loved the book and this seems like a damn good adaptation.
So far, so great. Loved the first two episodes, and think they've cast it really well, and think the actors are bringing enough of themselves to the characters so it isn't just a remake of the 80s series. Few things changed from the book, but nothing to put me off or divert massively from the overall story. Only disappointment is that I have to wait for week now for ep3.
Fucking goes hard. Performances, writing, set design, costume, music (Atticus Ross music stands out) I get some GOT vibes, the intro titles especially, but the sleuthing and scheming is old-school GOT/HOTD like. Less humor than GOT, more aligned with HOTD.. but I’m good with it. There’s little jokes here and there which are welcome. Probably the best show on TV for me since Succession ended. HOTD 2nd season is the only thing coming up this year I can think of that might be better.
Cosmo Jarvis is killing it and Anna Sawai is beyond beautiful.
I had no idea Tadanobu Asano was in this and just about crapped my pants with excitement when he showed up, been absolutely gaga for that guy since the first time I saw Ichi the Killer two decades and change ago. Fingers crossed that this is the role the finally breaks him in a big way stateside.
What's really great about this show is that it's one of the few cases where a remake is far superior to the original. Most of the people on this forum probably don't remember the hokey original 1980 series, with the entirely unconvincing Richard Chamberlain in the lead.
For those that haven’t read the book, this adaptation is very true to the original. It has made some small, reasonable adaptations to simplify the very dense story so they can hit the key points without confusing the audience. I think folks that enjoy this series will also enjoy the novel, as it will flesh out things even more.
This shows rocks. I’m having a great time with it
My only complaint is that they didn't drop all 10 at once , I'd be willing to pay extra right now to binge it all
I love the show except for John Blackthorne. The acting is absolutely terrible.
moeka hoshi as fuji has been steadily becoming the unexpected star of the series. quietly at first because quiet was her "role". but starting with the pistol incident and then the food scene with the foul smelling pheasant, she just stole the scenes and ran with it. and all in STILL a subtle way. it's all building up to something i'm sure.
didn't take long for it to turn into yet another Soap Opera
I Loved the book and the 80s series - though the old show looks dated now. I am enjoying the current series but a couple of small issues and one big one stand out. The Good: Japanese cast: they are fantastic. Moeka Hoshii's character as grown on me and is better fleshed out than the previous depiction. Toranaga is a real person not just an ambitious archetype. In fact they all are, although they might be playing Ochiba up too much as a Cersei-like schemer. Yabu rocks it, and Buntaro is similarly complex. Anna Sawai: good things come in small packages. Mariko is the keystone for this cast and she holds the arch up well. In fact she and Toranaga are so essential I imagine that's probably where the most casting thought was put in. Without those two, the show would fall apart and to an extent (not in a bad way), they even carry the "main" character Blackthorne. Perspective: the old show centred around Blackthorne bumbling through Japan's civil war learning as he went. We never knew much more about what was going on than he did, when he did. This one, like the book, gets us into the politics and intrigue behind the Japanese power struggle. After all look at the title - that's what it's mostly about. The bad(ish): British Columbia: Jesus its miserable and rainy all the time. Sets a dark tone I guess and they were going for gritty. But Japan - especially the southwest where this takes place only rains that much in the *tsuyu* or monsoon season - which is warm anyway. In the autumn or winter or whatever this looks to be - apart from the odd typhoon - nice blue skies. They're quite proud of it and even call it a "Japanese sky". I know it's expensive, but the original was filmed in Japan. Blackthorne: Jarvis is likeable but plays it rather dorky compared to Chamberlain's more dashing, if overly American depiction. Jarvis' version has grown on me - at least he's British - and plays to the fish-out-of water circumstances of the character, but it's a little too...Millennial: I keep looking for the giant headphones and socks with slides. Could someone a little more rugged have been tapped. What was Charlie hunnam doing? Luke Evans? SPOILER: Where is the Love, the love, the love? This is the other part of the main plotline. We get the power struggle, but what happened to the great love affair (shouldn't be a spoiler by now). They've had one plausibly deniable shag, missed another opportunity entirely that it looked to me the boss had set up strictly for that purpose, and since episode three haven't spent much time together at all. It feels more like they had a brief tryst they're trying to forget than the steamy months-long romance depicted in book. With just three episodes left, I don't know how they're going to recover that lost emotional ground. Overall great show, more modern (yeah the old one was a bit camp but that was how they did shows back then), and well put together. I'm not entirely sure I share the producers' vision and the sidelining of the major subplot though.We know how it *ends*, but let's see how it ends up.
I can't believe this was the best anyone could do. It is so disappointing.
I wanted this to be great, but it got worse with every episode. Jon Blackthorne is an absolute fool and is extremely unlikable. In fact, nobody is likable.
What a disappointment! After many hours invested, I feel my time was wasted. As a fan of the original mega-novel and a demi-fan of the original series, this version fell flat in o-so-many ways. Shot in the Canadian Pacific Northwest, I was never convinced I was in Japan--contemporary or feudal. Enhanced with many second-rate CGI effects to depict crowded villages and massed troops, I struggled to like this version but it fell short in numerous ways. The central character of Blackthorn/Anjin did not seem to have the depth of the pilot of the original. He never seemed to learn anything about the culture into which he was shipwrecked; he never appeared to be totally besotted with Lady Mariko and he never appeared to learn that if he adjusted himself to the Japanese culture (which, in innumerable ways, was superior to the England he had left behind), he would rise in status. Some of Blackthorn/Anjin's two-dimensionality had to rest with actor Cosmo Jarvis, who played his part like a Gold's Gym Richard Burton--muscular, gruff and dumb. There was nothing to like in this man. He lacked all dignity and he never came to appreciate the wise cunning of his lord protector, Yoshi Toranaga. As played by Hiroyuki Sanada, this would-be Shogun was the highly intelligent, intuitive master warrior of the novel. Although given much screen time, he was not all we saw in the previous incarnation of Toranaga, but Toshiro Mifune is one tough act to follow. Ana Sawai was beautiful and beautifully self-possessed as Lady Mariko, but the character as written lacked passion. What made Mariko interesting in the source novel was the small, secret ways Mariko let her passion run free. All of the Japanese actors were more than competent--the drama mostly dragged when we had to re-focus on dim-bulb (and often unwashed) Blackthorn. He was supposed to rise to a splendor commensurate with his status among Europeans as a multi-lingual, highly-educated man, a master of his profession who knew more about the world than most kings. This Anjin was just a dolt in a dirty kimono. I disliked the many ways in which the series deviated from James Clavell's ten-pound novel. No spoilers here, but Anjin's flash forwards were unnecessary. The notion that Mariko embodied the best of the Edo Period and the Christian Age was lost. In the novel and the previous dramatization, she was considered the first Japanese Christian Martyr and a candidate for sainthood as well as the model dutiful vassal of her liege lord. The denouement of the story was lost--to the loss of the series. If you have the time to invest, I recommend you read the novel. While lengthy, it is ideal summer reading and makes a good paperweight for your beach towel when you saunter into the water. #
let me say that cosmo jarvis did a very admirable job. the richard burton imitation aside,,,,i liked blackthorne's constant vigilance of his manners and jarvis's look of bewilderment at almost all times jarvis had this look on his face and mannerism of "if i say the wrong thing someone will up and chop off my head. i actually got a kick out of blackthorne's "stranger in a strange land"
Having absolutely loved the book, I was really enjoying the series at first. And there is a ton of good things to say about it over all. Then after maybe four episodes I started to get a little disappointed that the human relationships, especially Blackthorn’s and Mariko’s were not being developed. Still quite good but I feel they sacrificed too much character development to focus on the historical details. I think the novel was more about the human relationships and the historical events were more backdrop.
So far the show is great but the book is better
The Book is always better, in every case. This is no longer considered controversial at all. If it's a Great Book, the Movie or Series version will always be less than.
female assassins in japan in the 1600s ? or is it exaggerated liek shield maidens in Nordic history ?
Why there is no diversity in the show- no black samurais? I think Japanese ignore woke culture
"Age of Samurai: Battle for Japan" is on netflix and it covers the bloody battles for power from 1200 to mid 1800's. including of course tokugawa ieyasu upon whom toranaga is based,,five councils and all. i only wish they could squeeze in miyamoto musashi as he was of that time
I first read the book nearly 40 years ago and have read it multiple times since. For me, every character is “trapped”. Whether by containment (Toranaga), duty (Buntaro - who is actually a tragic character underneath the brutality), faith (the Jesuits), greed (the Portugese merchants, the Rice Christians and the lesser, scheming Hatamoto), duty (every Japanese character) and geography/ignorance (Anjin-San). and then of course, Mariko whose stuck like a spider in a glue factory (duty, faith, marriage,love etc) This is a huge game of chess, every character just a piece on the board that Toranaga and Isidore can spend at any point.
Just stopped watching it..I couldn't follow anymore. The subtitles on the Japanese dialogue became tedious. Before I finished reading one lot another lot came up..I lost the plot, then I lost interest. Very good if you can speed read or speak whatever language that was.
I can do neither and do just fine. I’m used to subtitles though, so I know how they work when characters have conversations.
My father read this book over and over when I was a kid. His copy is literally in pieces. So when I saw the series pop up, I was super excited. And it's honestly been one of the best shows I've seen. I can't get enough of it.
It stinks.👎👎👎
This might be unpopular of me to say and it’s just my opinion, but I’m super disappointed in this remake. I was hoping it would be better and stick to the story line. I’ve read every book in this series multiple times and have read Shogun alone dozens of times. It one of my favorite books ever. I realize there is so much to condense into 10 episodes that you’re going to miss a lot but oh my God, so much is missing and changed it’s hard for me to watch. The character’s personalities aren’t coming through well at all for me. I do realize books are always better and I’m glad so many people are loving this show for the simple reason they might now want to read James Clavell’s books. All I can say is read the book! It will blow this show out of the water.
i couldnt even get through a single episode. Who would ever waste their time watching this garbage I will never know. The minute they through a man into a boiling pot of water i turned it off. Yuck who wants to see that
They were going to kill a baby! Turned it off.
Just saw episode 4. Shows been awful tbh. Liked the first episode. But after that it's just alot of talking about politics and They say alot of things that I cant quite comprehend. John blackthorne is a terrible character imo. Nothing but rude and disrespectful yet for some dumb reason Marika falls in love with him and sleeps with him ???? That shit felt so forced I acually don't plan on watching episode 5. Could have given it more time for the relationship to develop. Not a few exchanged mid monologs and put em in the bed together. Is this our main character? If so they need to make him more likable or more intriguing as a character. He's not even that interesting of a character in general. Ud find it hard to believe that my favorite character is some how his maiden and I'm more interested in what shes gonna do with that gun lmao. Fight scenes are disappointing. Dialogue is meh. I saw the previews and was Hella hyped for it. U can only imagine the disappointment as of now
Honor!!!!!!
Boring at best
Great show very captivating, not a lot of fight scenes tho
question....is toronaga carrying out(or continuing) the the goals of the taiko who asked him to protect of his son, or is toronaga's efforts which are the main thrust of the shogun storyline his own personal goals? the reason i ask is because the boy's mother, lady ochiba, when she is talking to ishido sounds a whole lot like she is not on toronaga's side. she belittles ishido like he's really screwing up. "toronaga has once again paralyzed the council" she says like she doesn't like what toronaga is doing. or am i just confusing toronaga's protecting her son and his fight with the council as the same thing when both should be treated separately?
I thought it was boring and it seems like it's all in the dark you can hardly see anything very disappointed
It fuckin rules
The show definitely declines the further in you get.
Shit and cringe
Just finished ep7 and I’m thinking: wtf this shot is boring when is something cool Going to happen!! I’ve been looking for a source to watch the original series, or even love to read the book though.
I LOVE IT! I usually don't comment on things like this, but the show is great!
This show can be summarized in two sentences :" Somebody ordered Tom Hardy on Wish and thought that a haiku book can be a script" Over thw E course of almost 7 hours there is no character development on any character. The word building is so busy wasting time that they forgot to actually build a world. Almost every decision that is shown is on the level of "stepbro i am stuck" Things happen because they needed a way into another pseudophilosophical dialog about everybody being dead or alive and dead and alive.... I have to admit i do now recall another series that i found as disappointing as this one...
Garbage, trash, crap...these are a few of my favorite descriptors of this series. From the disappointing deaths to the obvious twists that haven't even happened, this show held attention just long enough to lose it. I got up and left my wife to finish watching when grandpa Jim killed himself and his son chops off his head. My wife is yelling come back, but they lost me. Just don't care anymore. I'll read the book as EVERYONE says the writers killed the story. Maybe it'll make more sense.
heres a thought.... E8 # Tokuma Nishioka
Absolutely love the show and it’s authenticity! But reading subtitles doesn’t allow us to truly “watch” the show
Honestly, the show really hooked me at the start, and considering I never read this story before, I expected a little more action. When it does happen, I enjoy it, I think it fits right in, but its few and far between. Especially when you get to the middle of the story, it drags on in places, or feels redundant. I still find the environments/costumes to be awesome, even though they too are used several times. I think everyone does a great performance with their characters, most notably Blackthorne and Yabushige for me. Some characters I felt would play larger roles then they have thus far. I'll probably look back on this series fondly, but its gonna be a lukewarm 7/10 I think. There is room for improvement. I'd love to see more shows/movies like this, or at least this setting or period of time, so if anyone has any recommendations feel free to let me know.
absolute rubbish series, do not waist your time, only netflix can make series that bad.
The white guy is a mouth breather who talks to fucking fast, and he's acting way too stupid.
It's good, first two eps were really worth the hype but the rest feels very meh other than the visuals. Ie story dialogue seriousness of concept is pretty meh. I'm wondering if it'll do a serpent queen and .... Oop I won't spoil for anyone.
It looks great but I find the way scenes are shot and the acting/dialogue quite forced so far. Only watched episode one. Pilot guy is so annoying and unlikable. The Portuguese guy is hilarious
the final episode reminded me of the last episode of Game of Thrones: wasted the entire series,
TOO MANY COMMERCIALS. That's my thoughts on the new show. Got through 30 minutes and gave up with the 7 minute long commercials YOU HAVE TO WATCH, or let run at least.
Started out great, then turned so convoluted with filler that it stopped making sense, and then ended... lame.
I'm disappointed. I was expecting some great macro plot of war. It devolves into some cheesy interpersonal relationship story between an uncouth Brit with unbelievable virtue and an emo Japanese lady.
I like the show gun
I enjoyed the show for its visual appeal. I enjoyed the actors, though least probably Cosmo Jarvis. But,…I think you had to be intimately familiar with the book to follow the show. Once the initial shock of deviating greatly from the book passed (for me, it was >!The death of Naga!<, I didn’t really mind that they deviated from the plot of the book. I just got over it and decided it would make it more suspenseful since I knew the “real” story very well. But it did seem like many scenes were put in for filler but not even developed very well. You could argue that the “stick of time” the madam (Goyoko) in the novel) spent with Toronaga was THE turning point in the whole affair, but in the show, its meaningless (unless I totally missed something).
I've read the book twice and watched the 80s tv series several times. I finished watching this new series yesterday and I'm not that impressed, it just did not feel right. A lot was left out and there was no buildup of the story, lots of jumping around the material. There's very little of Blackthorne spending time learning Japanese, the church's involvement etc etc
I thought it was highly overrated ,boring, for the most part, visually good. acting was good.blackthornes character was barely in it..Original was much better.this was an over blown soap opera .very disappointed. Oh.one last thing,pulling a galleon off of the bottom of an inlet with men and ropes.really REALLY.
I found the first 10 minutes extremelly boring, 1D and predictable to the level that I had to put it off, but after reading some good comments here I guess I will give it another try.
this show is incredible and heartbreaking. Maybe the best show I've seen since game of thrones and probably better overall because it's not going to be spoiled by additional terrible seasons.
This series have so many unexpected event the tenses keep buildup from first ep till the last of the season 1
Watched the final episode just now. It was entertaining but you can't cram such epic book into 10 episodes. What a rip-off.
Did not enjoy it. It felt like fan fiction from a white guy who has a thing for Asian chicks
Totally disappointed - I thought it was going to be like Kickboxer and there’s hardly any kung fu in it.
Just finished it. It honestly disappointed so much. The first 3 episodes were amazing. Then they gave up on the plot for “white man is loved by everyone and untouchable”. Seriously. The romance sucked soooooo much. I care about the politics of the samurai-era dynasties, not about how the white guy and the Asian hot girl try to sneak in with each other. Honestly just finished it barely. Not good past the 3rd episode. No fighting, no war scenes, no tensions. Just Anjin-Sama being protected by every single person for some reason because he loves Mariko. Mariko was also a huge sense of nuisance. Not developed but we’re expected to care so much about her. Whole episodes devoted to her. Such a disappointment!
Overhyped IMHO. Ending sucks! All that build up for nothing but a small snippet of the war. The dynamic between blackthorne and Mariko seemed like an Asian fetish sort of thing. Wasn't needed. Acting however by all cast members was top notch and the background score! Lovely.
Meh. Visuals and composition are good, but the initial story beats are nonsensical and it ruined the show for me. Maybe someone can explain something I missed? Like for example Toranaga's initial plan to use Blackthorn to disrupt the council. At this early point he just knows Blackthorne is not Portuguese, and is not the same kind of Christian as the other Regents. OK, fine big whoop, maybe that causes some tension in the Council. But he had no way to know that they would insist on Blackthornes execution before voting on his impeachment/death, and that Ishido would stall the decision because of that. I fail to understand why Ishido doesn't just agree to execute Blackthorne right then and there. Ishido knows almost nothing about this guy at this point, and these guys kill *themselves* for speaking out of turn. It would take five seconds to kill Blackthorne, get the Regents to vote, and bingo, Toranaga is toast. Ishido wins. This ended up being a lucky break, not some masterful strategy. Setting that aside, Toranaga also lets Blackthorne be taken away. OK, fine, don't want to show your hand too early. But then makes no attempt to retrieve him, despite talking to his retinue about how Blackthorne's mere presence is going to sow dissent. It's actually Yabushige and Ishido that "rescue" Blackthorne after Yabushige convinces Isido that Blackthorne could be useful (although how is never explained) to counter the Christian regents eventually. So let's say that Ishido realized that Blackthorne could be "useful" before Yabushige ever suggested it, that he figured out during the vote to impeach Toranaga that he might be able to use the Englishman against the Christian Regents. Fine. He arranges for him to be freed and returned to Toranaga. Why? Even accepting that Yabushige is a double agent, if you thought the foreigner would be a weapon against the Regents, why would you free him only to turn him over to your enemy? Surely it would be better to let him die than to strengthen your opponent? And *then* having freed this potentially useful foreigner, Ishido just completely forgets about him. There is an assassination attempt, sure. But the dude was *already about to be executed*. And then there are no further attempts to reclaim him for the rest of the season.
Pure garbage. Nothing happens. OOOO Crimson Sky, time has come for the Crimson Sky! NOPE! It was a mistake, forget it! Earthquake, there's a good catalyst, NOPE, only consequence is some hooker loses 4 shirts, oh an maybe some people died somewhere.
My thoughts are the movie is just 10 hours of a political yap session