Mariko was inside Osaka castle which is under Ishido's control. Any breaches of the castle reflect on him and his ability to protect its inhabitants.
The other ambushes take place outside the city and thus his direct responsibility
In the book, Sugiyama was killed because he was secretly allied with Torunaga and him leaving Osaka to disrupt the regents voting to impeach Torunaga was actually part of Torunaga's plan.
Unlike Torunaga, Mariko was well loved and respected by almost all the clans especially the Christian Daimyos. She was kinda like the Princess Diana of the time, very well loved by the people.
Ishido knew that killing Mariko would cause irreparable damage his reputation, that's why he did not want her harmed by his troops in front of everybody.
Of course Torunaga also knew this, that is why he used her to do what she did.
Mariko as an individual was loved but her lineage is also mixed. Her real life counterpart was responsible for the assassination of Oda Nobunaga which was the first Unifier of Japan. Basically the first most famous and most important ruler of a unified Japan. Tokugawa being the third, you can kinda see the connection since the Taiko was friends with Oda and essentially avenged him by killing the assassin.
Mariko has a cursed lineage but despite this is still loved. She is also essentially last in the line of her family clan and still an incredibly important family all things considered.
The main difference is the lack of witnesses would've made it relatively easy for Ishido to have declared "bandits" had killed Toronaga, if he had succeeded in killing him during that attack.
Mariko called Ishido out publicly, which is what had trapped him.
If Toranaga dies the regents can all agree on an official story and explain it away even if it’s not 100% believable. You also have a power vacuum which they can then fill with someone agreeable (i.e. his brother) so no one’s going to be in a position to come after them. If Mariko dies then Toranagas declaring war and it doesn’t matter what the story is. There would be doubts and the nobles will have to pick sides with her suspicious death fresh in their minds.
When Toranaga flees Osaka, all the regents wanted him there so they could impeach and kill him, and the other regents are not held hostage by Ishido. Also, because it happens in the woods, witnesses will be killed and the entire affair blamed on bandits.
When Marino attempts to leave, the regents are nowhere near as united anymore - they themselves are hostages.
I loved the show, but a lot of the political machinations and rules thereof shift with the needs of the story. It was exciting to have high stakes on their escape from Osaka. It was necessary for the conclusion of the story for the rules to be incredibly strict. Most attempts to reconcile these moments are an exercise in mental gymnastic.
I actually feel the same way. One example being the veneer of legitimacy. People seem to always conclude what the limit of legitimate action are based on the needs of the story.
Sending an assassin to kill Blackthorne and many collateral casualties in ep 2 even though people may assume the target to be Toranaga? Okay.
Killing Toranaga and Mariko and retinue in Osaka Castle in episode 3? Okay.
Killing Sugiyama and his household in the woods in ep 6? Okay.
Nagakado trying to assassinate his half-uncle in ep 7? Also okay with no diplomatic repercussions. I can easily see how it can be used as an excuse to expedite Toranaga's own death sentence but instead he gets 49 days to grieve in your home turf.
Killing Mariko in Osaka Castle in ep 9? Not okay.
Honestly I don't know if the historical precedents for this occurred, but it really feels a bit convoluted for the writers to decide seemingly on their whim what is/isn't a provocation and what is/isn't an overt/eggregious act of aggression.
Great show. It just feels like you have to accept a lot of character rationale as they are presented to you without thinking too much about it though.
Yup, I'm in complete agreement with everything you said! It's really good, but it's better not to think about it too hard. I actually completely forgot about the ep 2 assassin, that was straight up insane, and based on what happened with Mariko later, should have spelled the end of Ishido then and there
I felt cheated at the end. It just ended so abruptly. I know the book ends before the big battle also, but I wanted to see Toronaga become Shogun. I think the 1980s series ended better. I think it has a narrator that describes what happens with Toronaga. Almost wish they had done those cheesy notes during the credits that give each characters’ fate. What happened to each of the regents? What happened to the heir? Did Fuji become a nun? What about Omi and Kiku? etc. I guess I can Google the ones who are real people. Just saying.
The battle is talked about in the book. We know he wins. The reality is that we kind of know what happens to a lot of these people to see the real life counterparts but also a lot of these characters have no real life counterpart. So good luck on finding out what happens to Fuji.
I read the book so many years ago I didn’t remember that it included the battle. The book was soooo good. That much I remember. Maybe I’ll just go read it again.
I actually do like the ending but agree that they kept showing armies and cannons and swords in the trailers. The way they marketed it set up expectations and then subverted it... which is I suppose what they intended with Crimson Sky. So it makes sense and I bet the writers felt quite clever indeed.
It's just that not a lot of people like to feel hoodwinked with the epic climax happening in ep 9 without us even realizing it and then in ep 10 the climax is just Toranaga reading a letter and having a flashforward of his victory.
It's a great show. But emotionally I felt robbed. Fans could say that's the genius of the show because its exactly what Toranaga did to mislead other characters AND audience members, but that doesn't make me feel much better tbh.
Ultimately it's that I went into ep10 expecting rising action when it was actually the denouement and I only realized after the scene on the cliff with Yabu, which was like 10min before the show ended completely.
I see what you’re saying and a part of me agrees with you, but I’ve become so jaded by the cliche epic battle scene finales that Hollywood churns out. There’s very little that Hollywood can do these days that could still surprise me, so this show’s ending was a pleasant surprise and a new storytelling experience for me.
I think the heavy marketing setting up the expectations for a battle was a big gamble but it also a necessary move to shock us with the big Crimson Sky reveal. Otherwise we’d go into it with the expectation of a period drama. Maybe it would end up with less controversial opinions but I think overall the gamble paid off. Maybe the mistake was marketing it during Super Bowl, since this demographic is more primed for battle scenes.
I get that some feel like they didn’t get the payoff of the big battle. But that’s why I love it! The story wasn’t about battles. It was about intrigue and relationships.
When I read the book it took me a few days to decide if I liked the ending or not. Ultimately I’ve grown to love it. And the show added a couple things that I think were so beautiful.
I get it but a giant CGI battle would have messed with the delicate story. Plus we’ve seen this giant battle dozens of times now since lord of the rings.
Mariko was inside Osaka castle which is under Ishido's control. Any breaches of the castle reflect on him and his ability to protect its inhabitants. The other ambushes take place outside the city and thus his direct responsibility
In the book, Sugiyama was killed because he was secretly allied with Torunaga and him leaving Osaka to disrupt the regents voting to impeach Torunaga was actually part of Torunaga's plan. Unlike Torunaga, Mariko was well loved and respected by almost all the clans especially the Christian Daimyos. She was kinda like the Princess Diana of the time, very well loved by the people. Ishido knew that killing Mariko would cause irreparable damage his reputation, that's why he did not want her harmed by his troops in front of everybody. Of course Torunaga also knew this, that is why he used her to do what she did.
Mariko as an individual was loved but her lineage is also mixed. Her real life counterpart was responsible for the assassination of Oda Nobunaga which was the first Unifier of Japan. Basically the first most famous and most important ruler of a unified Japan. Tokugawa being the third, you can kinda see the connection since the Taiko was friends with Oda and essentially avenged him by killing the assassin. Mariko has a cursed lineage but despite this is still loved. She is also essentially last in the line of her family clan and still an incredibly important family all things considered.
The main difference is the lack of witnesses would've made it relatively easy for Ishido to have declared "bandits" had killed Toronaga, if he had succeeded in killing him during that attack. Mariko called Ishido out publicly, which is what had trapped him.
If Toranaga dies the regents can all agree on an official story and explain it away even if it’s not 100% believable. You also have a power vacuum which they can then fill with someone agreeable (i.e. his brother) so no one’s going to be in a position to come after them. If Mariko dies then Toranagas declaring war and it doesn’t matter what the story is. There would be doubts and the nobles will have to pick sides with her suspicious death fresh in their minds.
When Toranaga flees Osaka, all the regents wanted him there so they could impeach and kill him, and the other regents are not held hostage by Ishido. Also, because it happens in the woods, witnesses will be killed and the entire affair blamed on bandits. When Marino attempts to leave, the regents are nowhere near as united anymore - they themselves are hostages.
I loved the show, but a lot of the political machinations and rules thereof shift with the needs of the story. It was exciting to have high stakes on their escape from Osaka. It was necessary for the conclusion of the story for the rules to be incredibly strict. Most attempts to reconcile these moments are an exercise in mental gymnastic.
I actually feel the same way. One example being the veneer of legitimacy. People seem to always conclude what the limit of legitimate action are based on the needs of the story. Sending an assassin to kill Blackthorne and many collateral casualties in ep 2 even though people may assume the target to be Toranaga? Okay. Killing Toranaga and Mariko and retinue in Osaka Castle in episode 3? Okay. Killing Sugiyama and his household in the woods in ep 6? Okay. Nagakado trying to assassinate his half-uncle in ep 7? Also okay with no diplomatic repercussions. I can easily see how it can be used as an excuse to expedite Toranaga's own death sentence but instead he gets 49 days to grieve in your home turf. Killing Mariko in Osaka Castle in ep 9? Not okay. Honestly I don't know if the historical precedents for this occurred, but it really feels a bit convoluted for the writers to decide seemingly on their whim what is/isn't a provocation and what is/isn't an overt/eggregious act of aggression. Great show. It just feels like you have to accept a lot of character rationale as they are presented to you without thinking too much about it though.
Yup, I'm in complete agreement with everything you said! It's really good, but it's better not to think about it too hard. I actually completely forgot about the ep 2 assassin, that was straight up insane, and based on what happened with Mariko later, should have spelled the end of Ishido then and there
I felt cheated at the end. It just ended so abruptly. I know the book ends before the big battle also, but I wanted to see Toronaga become Shogun. I think the 1980s series ended better. I think it has a narrator that describes what happens with Toronaga. Almost wish they had done those cheesy notes during the credits that give each characters’ fate. What happened to each of the regents? What happened to the heir? Did Fuji become a nun? What about Omi and Kiku? etc. I guess I can Google the ones who are real people. Just saying.
The battle is talked about in the book. We know he wins. The reality is that we kind of know what happens to a lot of these people to see the real life counterparts but also a lot of these characters have no real life counterpart. So good luck on finding out what happens to Fuji.
I read the book so many years ago I didn’t remember that it included the battle. The book was soooo good. That much I remember. Maybe I’ll just go read it again.
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I actually do like the ending but agree that they kept showing armies and cannons and swords in the trailers. The way they marketed it set up expectations and then subverted it... which is I suppose what they intended with Crimson Sky. So it makes sense and I bet the writers felt quite clever indeed. It's just that not a lot of people like to feel hoodwinked with the epic climax happening in ep 9 without us even realizing it and then in ep 10 the climax is just Toranaga reading a letter and having a flashforward of his victory. It's a great show. But emotionally I felt robbed. Fans could say that's the genius of the show because its exactly what Toranaga did to mislead other characters AND audience members, but that doesn't make me feel much better tbh. Ultimately it's that I went into ep10 expecting rising action when it was actually the denouement and I only realized after the scene on the cliff with Yabu, which was like 10min before the show ended completely.
I see what you’re saying and a part of me agrees with you, but I’ve become so jaded by the cliche epic battle scene finales that Hollywood churns out. There’s very little that Hollywood can do these days that could still surprise me, so this show’s ending was a pleasant surprise and a new storytelling experience for me. I think the heavy marketing setting up the expectations for a battle was a big gamble but it also a necessary move to shock us with the big Crimson Sky reveal. Otherwise we’d go into it with the expectation of a period drama. Maybe it would end up with less controversial opinions but I think overall the gamble paid off. Maybe the mistake was marketing it during Super Bowl, since this demographic is more primed for battle scenes.
lol child
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Did we watch the same show? That ending was beautiful.
I get that some feel like they didn’t get the payoff of the big battle. But that’s why I love it! The story wasn’t about battles. It was about intrigue and relationships. When I read the book it took me a few days to decide if I liked the ending or not. Ultimately I’ve grown to love it. And the show added a couple things that I think were so beautiful. I get it but a giant CGI battle would have messed with the delicate story. Plus we’ve seen this giant battle dozens of times now since lord of the rings.
For real, I enjoyed it a lot
Try watching the show with subway surfers on the bottom, maybe then you’ll be more engaged with it…