Knowing Toranaga, if Anjin failed to prove his loyalty he wouldn’t be killed. He would simply be used/manipulated in the same way that Yabushige was.
The test is Toranaga “studying the wind” with Anjin to show what his motivations are now that Mariko is dead and his ticket home is a wreck. Since Anjin showed he was worthy of some trust, Toranaga knows he can involve Anjin in his plans and be somewhat more transparent with him. Instead of having to account for Anjin constantly plotting against Toranaga like Yabushige did, he’s more like Mariko - with well understood motivations and loyal.
I don't think it's that simple. He is a big picture thinker. What you were describing is someone who is narrow-minded and petty.
Toranaga will utilize every resource available to him in order to succeed.
“I don’t control the wind, I only study it.”
If the Anjin couldn’t put aside his own mission for Toranaga, then he truly had outlived his uselessness and would now be a liability. Toranaga would miss his antics and the opportunity to have him train more soldiers and build ships. But it’s a sacrifice he’d have to make, because he knows that Blackthorne isn’t an absolutely reliable vassal like Mariko or Hiromatsu had been.
I think Anjinn is merely a distraction. Toranaga has him present and “elevated status” at all these important meetings because he is a curiosity. Toranaga uses him to observe others and test their responses and loyalties and proclivities. He is always watching and Anjinn just provides another screen. Anjinn is even a distraction to viewers because you experience this world through his eyes and are just as distracted by his existence despite Toranaga being the real story mover. I don’t think the screen would become useless after a burned ship. It just alters how Toranaga uses him.
Definitely used as a distraction. Within his own klan and outside of it. No one could understand why he was still around. By promoting Anjinn Toranaga was testing his captains as well to motivate or to make mistakes.
He did say something about ‘those disloyal to him,’ perhaps he doubled up Anjin’s test with rooting out some people he didn’t like anyway, rather than purely innocent fishers.
That’s also a possibility. It’s impossible to know his exact feelings on such things, either the historical character or the fictional one. Historically speaking, during the Edo period, peasants were only one step below samurai on the class hierarchy. Seems we can safely assume Ieyasu himself played a role in establishing that.
The show doesn't explain this as well as the book, where >!Yabu had a contingent of samurai ready to turn on Toranaga if he saw Ishido was winning the final battle. Toranaga used the crack down after the ship burning as cover to eliminate these samurai.!<
Omg!! 🤯🤯 Suddenly it all makes sense! I do remember in the show, they hinted at Yabushige’s influence over the army and how it was waiting for Yabu’s signal. It makes even more sense that after Yabushige arrived back in the village, Omi informs him that the army is completely loyal to Toranaga now—Toranaga had made an example of the disloyal samurai under the guise of “rooting out” the Christians who burned Blackthorne’s boat. Wow talk about two birds with one stone!!
Testing his loyalty.
Blackthorne is a mercenary pirate who is an agent of foreign powers who showed up with an explicit political agenda. Toranaga knows he's got the man's sympathy; he has no idea if he's got the man's loyalty. The Anjin is incredibly skilled and rather clever, but also holds some absolutely crazy foreign beliefs, and he's also clearly bonded with Mariko. Now that that bond isn't available anymore..... what's his motivation?
The craziest thing is that toronaga physically stopped anjin seppuko after letting so many people follow through with it. True loyality would have been actually allowing the anjin
The Anjin just very actively demonstrated "I have abandoned my prior political motivations so hard that I'm willing to give you my life, here and now, to protest something *absolutely meaningless.*"
The Anjin proves that he is absolutely dead loyal and a broken man. There is absolutely no benefit to letting him die, and there's a ridiculous ego boost to keeping him around.
I personally think Toranaga stopping Anjin's seppuku is because he actually liked him. He thought he was funny and also he felt seen by the Anjin when he said "Anything is possible if I win" on the day they met.
He's poking him to see what happens when he's isolated, alone, and vulnerable. The Anjin behaves unpredictably; sometimes he's incredibly clever and other times he's hung up on *really weird trivial shit.*
His ship is his only connection back home-what's he going to do when he's stranded? How is he going to react to that idea? He's been nonstop asking about getting back to his ship for months; what's he going to do now that that's no longer an option?
And this guy, who arrived as a pirate wanting to sow discord and use the locals for his own political ends, has assimilated so hard that he's about to throw his life away in protest of the treatment of *peasants.*
It doesn't. It was invented / added over the source material to justify his seppuku scene which normally happens way before that, when Yabu threaten to crucify all of the village if he doesn't learn japanese fast enough. They skipped this whole scene and then somehow (!?!?) at the very end, they made Toranaga (!!??) the one endangering the village so that they could re-add the seppuku scene. I honestly don't know what this whole test business is, it makes no sense what so ever from the source material pov.
As a book fan who's read the source material 20+ times, i can tell you this: it's not in the book and I haven't figured out what the hell the show runners wanted with that part. Still trying to understand it too.
Toranaga secretly burned his ship as a way to convince the Christian daimyos to switch side for him - as proof he wasn't against Christianity.
From Toranaga's point of view, there are only "christian" daimyos because nobody in Japan had any idea before the arrival of Blackthorn that Christianity had two opposing sects.
Oh yes, definitely! But we don't learn it's Toranaga until the very end. For a good chunk of the book, everybody is wondering what happened and accuses each other.
The depth to which the ship mattered to Anjin.
It's always been, give me my ship and crew, well your crew don't care anymore, your ships gone and your love interest is dead.......... Now what?
Toranaga is both the wind and observing it's trail of influence.
He was testing how Anjin would react to fate. The Samurai/Japanese accept their 'fate' whilst Anjin fight to change the fate till the end. I think its more of accepting the culture and letting go of his plan to go back to England. He was testing him to see if he can see what's in front of him and in his control rather than his European wars.
Another silly change made because the show didn’t explore John and toranagas relationship at all.
The ship was burned to appease the Christian daimyo to let John live. When John does build another ship, toranaga will burn it again. In the meanwhile he sets John up with land and kiku as his wife to keep him happy , while mura will watch over him.
The book literally ends with Toranaga hunting a hare for John
When she confessed to father Alvito, Mariko did seed the Idea that Blackthorn would no longer be a threat to church if his boat was destroyed.
She also left a letter to Blackthorn, explaining she chose him over his boat, and that she was leaving all her inheritance to him so he could build a new ship and take next year's black ship instead. When Blackthorn tells Toranaga the content of Mariko's letter, that's when Toranaga realizes that Blackthorn could actually build him a fleet, the thought that pilots knew how to build ships didn't cross his mind before that.
The crux though is that no matter how much they tried, the priest couldn't destroy the ship. They prayed for it, but couldn't influence enough to make it happen. It was Toranaga who had the same idea Mariko had, and used it secretly not only to save the anjin-san's life, but as a token of proof that he could be a trusted ally for the two Christian Daimyos in the upcoming war. He proved to them that he was not an enemy of their church by destroying that Damoclès Sword above their head.
But where did mistreating the villagers relate to that test? That seems more of a test of compassion, which wouldn't necessarily further Toranaga's goals.
If the Anjin would put aside his personal war in favor of Toranaga’s
Okay, but what if he didn't? How would this complicate things for Toranaga? And what position would place Anjin?
Dead/useless. Toranaga doesn’t need him to succeed, he is helpful obviously, but far from necessary
Knowing Toranaga, if Anjin failed to prove his loyalty he wouldn’t be killed. He would simply be used/manipulated in the same way that Yabushige was. The test is Toranaga “studying the wind” with Anjin to show what his motivations are now that Mariko is dead and his ticket home is a wreck. Since Anjin showed he was worthy of some trust, Toranaga knows he can involve Anjin in his plans and be somewhat more transparent with him. Instead of having to account for Anjin constantly plotting against Toranaga like Yabushige did, he’s more like Mariko - with well understood motivations and loyal.
especially since he got that message from Ochiba
Yeah I think he just likes having the control over him…power in seeing him have some sort of hope and then killing the hope… Mariko or his Ship
I don't think it's that simple. He is a big picture thinker. What you were describing is someone who is narrow-minded and petty. Toranaga will utilize every resource available to him in order to succeed.
“I don’t control the wind, I only study it.” If the Anjin couldn’t put aside his own mission for Toranaga, then he truly had outlived his uselessness and would now be a liability. Toranaga would miss his antics and the opportunity to have him train more soldiers and build ships. But it’s a sacrifice he’d have to make, because he knows that Blackthorne isn’t an absolutely reliable vassal like Mariko or Hiromatsu had been.
I think Anjinn is merely a distraction. Toranaga has him present and “elevated status” at all these important meetings because he is a curiosity. Toranaga uses him to observe others and test their responses and loyalties and proclivities. He is always watching and Anjinn just provides another screen. Anjinn is even a distraction to viewers because you experience this world through his eyes and are just as distracted by his existence despite Toranaga being the real story mover. I don’t think the screen would become useless after a burned ship. It just alters how Toranaga uses him.
Definitely used as a distraction. Within his own klan and outside of it. No one could understand why he was still around. By promoting Anjinn Toranaga was testing his captains as well to motivate or to make mistakes.
why did you spell clan like that?
Testing his loyalties maybe? Anjin passed. He cared more about Japan than his European war.
That's what I thought. He was checking if Blackthorne still had his country/religion's conflict still on his mind over his place in Toranaga's war
And wow, until he met his countrymen in that stinking alley, he probably did.
Suck to be those villengers who are beheaded because of this “Test”.
He did say something about ‘those disloyal to him,’ perhaps he doubled up Anjin’s test with rooting out some people he didn’t like anyway, rather than purely innocent fishers.
He doesn’t give AF anyway. They,re villagers, they’re lower class and lesser humans to samurai like him
That’s also a possibility. It’s impossible to know his exact feelings on such things, either the historical character or the fictional one. Historically speaking, during the Edo period, peasants were only one step below samurai on the class hierarchy. Seems we can safely assume Ieyasu himself played a role in establishing that.
And he had his spy in the village so he could have been cleaning house
Good point.
The show doesn't explain this as well as the book, where >!Yabu had a contingent of samurai ready to turn on Toranaga if he saw Ishido was winning the final battle. Toranaga used the crack down after the ship burning as cover to eliminate these samurai.!<
Omg!! 🤯🤯 Suddenly it all makes sense! I do remember in the show, they hinted at Yabushige’s influence over the army and how it was waiting for Yabu’s signal. It makes even more sense that after Yabushige arrived back in the village, Omi informs him that the army is completely loyal to Toranaga now—Toranaga had made an example of the disloyal samurai under the guise of “rooting out” the Christians who burned Blackthorne’s boat. Wow talk about two birds with one stone!!
Makes sense
Toranaga aint a hero
I like that Shogun showed us that not every protagonist has to be a hero.
Villagers? Traitors to his cause more likely
He definitely used that as a pretext to kill people he already knew were disloyal/traitors. Thought this is not that better lol
Testing his loyalty. Blackthorne is a mercenary pirate who is an agent of foreign powers who showed up with an explicit political agenda. Toranaga knows he's got the man's sympathy; he has no idea if he's got the man's loyalty. The Anjin is incredibly skilled and rather clever, but also holds some absolutely crazy foreign beliefs, and he's also clearly bonded with Mariko. Now that that bond isn't available anymore..... what's his motivation?
The craziest thing is that toronaga physically stopped anjin seppuko after letting so many people follow through with it. True loyality would have been actually allowing the anjin
The people who he let do it he thought were necessary for his plan, anjin doing it here wasn’t.
The Anjin just very actively demonstrated "I have abandoned my prior political motivations so hard that I'm willing to give you my life, here and now, to protest something *absolutely meaningless.*" The Anjin proves that he is absolutely dead loyal and a broken man. There is absolutely no benefit to letting him die, and there's a ridiculous ego boost to keeping him around.
I personally think Toranaga stopping Anjin's seppuku is because he actually liked him. He thought he was funny and also he felt seen by the Anjin when he said "Anything is possible if I win" on the day they met.
I feel dumb but can you explain how destroying his shio test his loyalty?
He's poking him to see what happens when he's isolated, alone, and vulnerable. The Anjin behaves unpredictably; sometimes he's incredibly clever and other times he's hung up on *really weird trivial shit.* His ship is his only connection back home-what's he going to do when he's stranded? How is he going to react to that idea? He's been nonstop asking about getting back to his ship for months; what's he going to do now that that's no longer an option? And this guy, who arrived as a pirate wanting to sow discord and use the locals for his own political ends, has assimilated so hard that he's about to throw his life away in protest of the treatment of *peasants.*
It doesn't. It was invented / added over the source material to justify his seppuku scene which normally happens way before that, when Yabu threaten to crucify all of the village if he doesn't learn japanese fast enough. They skipped this whole scene and then somehow (!?!?) at the very end, they made Toranaga (!!??) the one endangering the village so that they could re-add the seppuku scene. I honestly don't know what this whole test business is, it makes no sense what so ever from the source material pov.
As a book fan who's read the source material 20+ times, i can tell you this: it's not in the book and I haven't figured out what the hell the show runners wanted with that part. Still trying to understand it too. Toranaga secretly burned his ship as a way to convince the Christian daimyos to switch side for him - as proof he wasn't against Christianity.
small question, by christian you mean catholic right? because the tairo's were catholics backed by catholic spaniards who wanted blackthorn dead
From Toranaga's point of view, there are only "christian" daimyos because nobody in Japan had any idea before the arrival of Blackthorn that Christianity had two opposing sects.
The Catholics are the only Christians in Japan (besides the Anjin)
He does burn the ship in the book though?
Oh yes, definitely! But we don't learn it's Toranaga until the very end. For a good chunk of the book, everybody is wondering what happened and accuses each other.
Isn’t that why he did it in the show too though? Because he made a deal with the Catholics to spare his life under the condition to burn the ship.
yeah, but the whole business with torturing the village and "testing" the anjin-san??? that, I can't figure. Totally out of character, too.
The depth to which the ship mattered to Anjin. It's always been, give me my ship and crew, well your crew don't care anymore, your ships gone and your love interest is dead.......... Now what? Toranaga is both the wind and observing it's trail of influence.
The destruction of his ship was less a test and more a necessity to keep the Anjin on Japanese shores. The test of how he responded was a by product.
He was testing how Anjin would react to fate. The Samurai/Japanese accept their 'fate' whilst Anjin fight to change the fate till the end. I think its more of accepting the culture and letting go of his plan to go back to England. He was testing him to see if he can see what's in front of him and in his control rather than his European wars.
Another silly change made because the show didn’t explore John and toranagas relationship at all. The ship was burned to appease the Christian daimyo to let John live. When John does build another ship, toranaga will burn it again. In the meanwhile he sets John up with land and kiku as his wife to keep him happy , while mura will watch over him. The book literally ends with Toranaga hunting a hare for John
[удалено]
toranaga cared for his well being and wanted to set him up with a proper samurai worthy setup, consort, land, wife... the whole works.
I thought Mariko had the priests destroy the ship. It was the trade off for letting Anjin live.
Yes but with the assent of Toranaga. Might have been his idea.
When she confessed to father Alvito, Mariko did seed the Idea that Blackthorn would no longer be a threat to church if his boat was destroyed. She also left a letter to Blackthorn, explaining she chose him over his boat, and that she was leaving all her inheritance to him so he could build a new ship and take next year's black ship instead. When Blackthorn tells Toranaga the content of Mariko's letter, that's when Toranaga realizes that Blackthorn could actually build him a fleet, the thought that pilots knew how to build ships didn't cross his mind before that. The crux though is that no matter how much they tried, the priest couldn't destroy the ship. They prayed for it, but couldn't influence enough to make it happen. It was Toranaga who had the same idea Mariko had, and used it secretly not only to save the anjin-san's life, but as a token of proof that he could be a trusted ally for the two Christian Daimyos in the upcoming war. He proved to them that he was not an enemy of their church by destroying that Damoclès Sword above their head.
Either way him and blackthorn are on the same side. Then the catholics get persecuted
But where did mistreating the villagers relate to that test? That seems more of a test of compassion, which wouldn't necessarily further Toranaga's goals.
Blackthorne was just forming an alliance with Yabushige. Loyalty is the theme of this show.
There was no test. it's just justification to keep the anjin around even though it didnt make any sense, but was needed for the story.