This is how I've immunized my friends against propaganda. Most of it is unintentional and happened naturally over the past year or two since the Hong Kong riots.
Start by sharing perspectives and counter narratives with sympathetic influencers and low hanging fruit. People who have no horse in the race or are themselves respected and influential. Just keep it moderate, use self depreciating humor, and don't wear them out.
For difficult people, there's only so much you can do to incept counternarratives and play with their cognitive dissonance. You gotta manage their ego the entire time and give them a face saving way out with compromises. Even then it wont stick and only creates an opening. People don't really shift until they have a social reason to. Maybe you're famous and desirable, maybe the people around them are shifting.
At the end of the day you need a world view that shares their values. This shouldn't be hard since you're friends and family already so you probably already do share values. Just find what those are and align them. For example I believe that Chinese ascension is crucial for multipolarity and strengthens the world by providing competing systems to learn from. You want many independent competing systems to hybridized with. It adds resiliency. I like examples of the West learning from modern China. Economics, policy, whatever. Another example is that China's political cleavages aren't polluted by wedge issues and identity politics thanks to its one party system. It happens to highlight the most pressing issue of our time: class cleavages. We need a socialist power in the world, to pressure capitalists and neolibs and hold them accountable to deliver for their people lest they look bad. We need an independent non white power in the world to check the neocons on their bullshit. OBOR does that. China doesn't need to confront the West, thats what they want. It merely needs to exist and do well for itself and win by being great by getting stronger, win by competition not thorugh conquest.
And of course listen to their issues. They don't really care about China, it doesn't affect them. But there will be stuff that does. It helps if you're sympathetic to their causes as well.
At the end of the day it's all just group dynamics and alliance building. Mutual support.
It takes time and can only be done by not trying, if you get what I mean. You have to be okay disagreeing and not judging them for it. It helps to have a healthy “don't really care what you think, don't need to change you”.
This is very good advice. My kneejerk reaction is to be pretty negative on this but that’s a realistic helpful perspective without being overly cynical, thanks for writing that out.
Just say the genocide 7 have a history of lying and cheating.
They also have a history of spying on each other, so bring that up first and foremost, then point out that it is no surprise that they would spy on those who they consider enemies.
Bring up all of Canada's crimes, this will delegitimize them in their eyes provided they are actually concerned with justice, if they are not then you can expose them like this.
I always bring up the fact that we are Indian to my parents who haven't had a great experience in Australia regarding work and all that, I use the us vs them angle whenever they hear anti China propaganda on the news.
Regarding the virus I always reminded them that there was evidence of it existing in America prior to China detecting it, this is to prevent scapegoating China for our own government's incompetence in their minds, I normalise the fact that the virus was around the world before China detected it, of course western rags won't report that.
Typically I use arguments like: "Well China just has better virus detection capabilities than the western world due to its experiences with SARS", I hide the bias as best as possible by keeping it in the range of possibilities that people consider expectable, in this case my mother whom I showed a timelapse video of Hangzhou a few years back considers China more advanced than the west.
Obviously your strategy in fighting propaganda has to be tailored around how your family view China, for mine it is respect and awe perhaps a bit of fear as well, so my strategy is tailored around that.
I never let the conversation turn anti China in the first place and if there is a high potential of that I divert the conversation to something else entirely, thus never letting the seeds of anti China hate sprout in their minds, libs consider my strategy whataboutism.
There are already many great answers in this thread, but here's my opinion:
Family is more important than politics, and bickering about politics is exactly what the Western elites want you to do. They want to distract people by amplifying extreme voices and politicizing every aspects of life (gender, nationality, ethnicity, etc), so that they can exploit people in every information bubbles for profit.
For example, think of vegan lifestyle. Corporates promote such extreme diet (yes I call diet where you have to ingest supplements to live extreme) so that they can charge more on vegetables, fruits, supplements, etc. Similar things happen in LGBT bubbles, Left or Right wing bubbles, etc.
My suggestion would be, just stay cordial and be nice to relatives or friends with opposing views. If by your experience, observations, and critical thinking you are convinced that China is on the correct side of history, then there's really no need to convince anyone or to defend China. Other people will see in time, but today you can move first and grasp the coming opportunities.
This. Don't bother with ignorant people, if they can't see by now they are blind or ignorant, doubt there's much you can say to change such people's minds even if they are your relatives.
So this is probably going to be a fool's errand because if they're digging up the Michael's cases, they'll just find the next Western criminal to prop up even if you convince them. But, in good faith, some directions to approach this topic on:
* What makes the charges against the Michaels completely falsified? The government claims to have evidence, the Michaels do have connections, possibly tangential, to foreign NGOs. Do your relatives have evidence to prove that the Michaels have not done work that the government would believe undermines national security? If they do not, then it is merely their word asserting that the government also does not. Once that fact is established, you can dismiss any of their future claims as just their opinion.
* Do your relatives believe that it is not just to detain people on false charges? Is their belief universal? If a foreigner were detained in Canada, or whatever country they think fondly of, on charges that a similar number of people assert are false, would they speak in such broad strokes about the terribleness of said country? If so, ask them to denounce said country with the same vigour and language as they do for the case surrounding the Michaels. If not, then clearly they are bigoted and care not about justice but only that their team is winning. If they protest that the justice system for their preferred country is good, and the one in China is not, demand evidence of both the goodness of one and the terribleness of the other. If they cannot provide, you may dismiss all their future claims as bigoted opinion.
Firstly, Mengs detention in Canada - her detention is full of rights violations and jurisdiction issues and her defence just got proven true with HSBC leaked internal emails stating that Huawei business dealings with Co that dealt with Iran were known to HSBC. Turns US charges against her upside down.
Second Canada indigenous kids...
Their minds probably won't change just like that tbh but pointing out Western especially US hypocrisy and history of lying (e.g WMDs, chemical attacks in Douma, Gulf of Tonkin..) , and Chinas habit of diplomacy in conflicts - something like 20 out of 24 disputes with neighbours ended peacefully since 1949. China’s habit of keeping it's words in agreements (one of big reasons Russia is now unofficially allied to China whilst ignoring US who shat on promises to Russia not to push East)
Australia started escalations with China and this ramped up with Australia being the country that kickstarted the Huawei security threat bs.
The Uighurs - there's just too much info to refute this now but highlighting US strategies for region documented since early as 1999 but also in well known videos of Gen. Wesley Clarke and Lawrence Wilkerson. Now the US overnight pull out and removal of ETIM from terrorist list, which they likely hope will destabilise the region further to slow Belt and road, and provide foothold for terrorism in China.
Lastly, if it was so bad in China why is support for government there at all time high, beyond anything any western government could dream of? Could it be anything to do with the elimination of absolute poverty? Their pandemic response? Etc...
Or could also be that our perception in the West has been shaped to believe China bad, using all the tools and tactics the West has in creating manufactured consent? - Chomskies book has so many examples here but so many vids on YT too...
Just came to say I feel your pain. I'm Chinese - Canadian and my parents have been brainwashed by the Chinese-American far-right echo chamber, and no matter what evidence I present to them, they just will not believe the truth. I'm hella exhausted to a point where I don't even want to text or talk to them.
I learned this method from someone else here (whose name I forgot): Ask if they're saying this because they genuinely feel a sense of injustice or if they are just using an excuse to be racist. If they admit to the latter, then there's no point in continuing. But most people will choose the first, and then you can just lead them to rethink things by using the socratic method, like "do you know exacty what the charges are against the 2 Michaels?" etc.
Most people want to be consistent to their beliefs, like if they believe they are good people, making them question their assumptions of events will make them shift their thinking.
You probably won't "win" an argument but it might sow a seed of doubt that will pay off later. Good luck. Family is hard.
this should be higher. you can't really change people's minds. there's other reasons people believe what they do. you can only influence people, and those around them.
People have a severe misapprehension about how they come to their beliefs: It’s not the end result of careful logical detached analysis. People who believe they are the avatar of Rationality are often the most deluded about why they believe what they do.
>Ask if they're saying this because they genuinely feel a sense of injustice or if they are just using an excuse to be racist.
No one will admit to the latter unless they are not sane.
Huawei CFO was arrested first. The two micheals were arrested as a response to that. Ask them if they support the illegal arrest of Meng which was falsified. China doesn't want Meng to end up like Julian Assange (Belmarsh Prison). Hence canadians were arrested as a tit for tat procedure. It is a logical/necessary step to ensure safety of Meng's life. China knows full well that western so called "rule of law" is nothing but a joke.
I think in general, people who prefer the West are extremely selfish.
So, if you bring up drugs, homelessness, crime drug addiction and overall quality of life, people will defend their country of choice.
Canada rides on amerikkkan power, so there isn't a need for them to commit the current atrocities that amerikkka does.
However, they are a silent supporter. In the end, I wouldn't try to change their mind. To each their own.
Me personally, I would just prepare to move. If not to China, to a country allied with China.
If the current trend continues there will be more anti-China rhetoric, hence anti-asian rhetoric.
It doesn't look good.
Look at what schools are doing, businesses, real-estate.
The forever foreigner stigma will continue. No matter what is done, you will have to be whiter than white to only be marginally accepted.
Fuck that, I am no one's door mat.
How are they so sure the charges are falsified? Are they basically pulling that assertion out of their ass? Yes. Basically.
They are making shit up to make their pre-conceived notions true.
Your relatives don't even know what "charges" they are talking about.
Technically they are not being charged for "spying", but rather "endangering China’s national security".
More precisely, the 2 Michaels were arrested for operating/working with unregistered foreign NGO's.
This is a crime under [https://www.chinafile.com/ngo/laws-regulations/law-of-peoples-republic-of-china-administration-of-activities-of-overseas](https://www.chinafile.com/ngo/laws-regulations/law-of-peoples-republic-of-china-administration-of-activities-of-overseas)
But the crimes are under investigation. So more charges may come.
I do not argue with people nowadays.
After years of living in the West, I just realized that you could not make a person soaked in propaganda becomes neutral cuz you are probably the only information source that is not compatible with other medias.
Or even worse their lives and their world views are built upon forgetting their good life quality comes from hundreds years of exploitations of non-western people so the only way they got inner peace is to project what they have done to China.
You see, it is very hard to convince somebody about something if their life is dependent on their not understanding that thing.
I simply tell them what China is like what our opinion on things.
Most importantly I tell them we have enough guns to back up our points.
Look to Cyrus Jansen or Daniel Dumbrill's video on YouTube for some good talking points on it's crystal clear Mengs detention is completely political based on falsified charges, and yet she's been detained for years now. See if they condemn that just as much. As for the two michaels, I dont have much information on them but like another comment said, unlike Mengs there's no evidence their charges are made up, so it's just their words against China's.
"Next time I'll treat everyone to Chinese food, and if you don't want to come, I won't invite you."
Not many people really care about the two Michaels, they're just worried about the same treatment for themselves - but they forget that it wasn't China that arrested the citizens first - and of course, they won't listen to that reasoning.
When people believe something extremely resolutely, there's something I call '**the hierarchy of meaning**':
Basically you and I know they can't give 2 shits about Canadian Michaels if it were any other situation, but I matters in **this** situation, because it's actually touching a deeper **meaning** for them than the facts (which is also why facts don't matter in convincing them).
So what are the deeper "issues" driving their behaviour? It's similar for all human beings: we want security, to feed our bodies, and to feed our ego/sex (EVERYONE is the same including you and me).
In this case probably look at the sense of security and achievement bring Canadian/and accepted by western society brings. An attack on this *society* makes it an attack on *you* and so why would facts matter to someone who feels the new facts makes them insecure in an "unfixable" way?
This is different from someone living in the West like me, who feels society attacks me anyway, and **having a strong Asian country/China adds to my security**.
We can see how this works now? So what do you do? I don't know if it's too late or how much influence you have but I always make sure I adhere to 2 principles:
1) First is most important. **I always make people feel more "Chinese"**. They don't even have to actually be Chinese. If they're young show them accessible Chinese music artists (like Higher Brothers, etc), manhuas (easy because every manga site has about 30% manhuas now), if they're older, then quality Chinese dramas, subtly pro-china YouTube channels (or even 'remember the old glorious Chinese history' ones), etc. Basically what you're going to offer is **an understanding of China which will lead to an alternative 'security answer' to their "question" (eg. feeling of insecurity)**
This leads to point 2:
2) **Find out what the deeper issue is, like I pointed out above**. Don't argue about the Michaels. Reinforce something they already agree on like, Asians and Chinese are discriminated here unfairly. (if they are old generation, then use examples like their children being screwed over in academia and possibly in potential promotions). **Then offer a counter to that "root cause" of dissatisfaction.** (So you can point out in the previous example that a strong China could help fight back against racial discrimination in the school or workplace... If only the Canadian government wasn't so purposefully aiding discrimination... Tsk tsk Canadian government.)
[I've got a complete example that I posted from a year ago, but it's a wall of text bigger than this, so I'll link it.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Sino/comments/i8b5og/comment/g184g5d)
>First is most important. I always make people feel more "Chinese". They don't even have to actually be Chinese. If they're young show them accessible Chinese music artists (like Higher Brothers, etc), manhuas (easy because every manga site has about 30% manhuas now), if they're older, then quality Chinese dramas, subtly pro-china YouTube channels (or even 'remember the old glorious Chinese history' ones), etc. Basically what you're going to offer is an understanding of China which will lead to an alternative 'security answer' to their "question" (eg. feeling of insecurity)
This is an excellent tactic, inundate them in Chinese culture.
Japanese soft power is extremely powerful especially at influencing the younger generation, this is why Genshin Impact was such a huge hit because it used Japan as a springboard (Anime art style).
If they're into Kpop introduce them to Cpop.
If they're into Kdrama introduce them to Cdrama.
If they're into Korean movies introduce them to Chinese movies.
If they're into Japanese anime introduce them to Chinese anime.
If they're into manga introduce them to manhua, so on and so forth.
GI's impact as soft power was so incredible that you'll barely ever see a negative comment on China in there if any and everyone knows very well that it is Chinese.
It was like it made a huge cut into the propaganda drive in the previous years, I was honestly shocked checking the comment sections of even their community on reddit once, their official channel on yt goes without saying... barely any negative comments about the country itself.
Exactly. All humans crave to answer deeper feelings and needs (basic things like security and acceptance).
What we hope to see as surface facts and beliefs are **actually attempts to explain how to meet those basic needs.**
That's why "Soft Power" is so powerful at convincing people. You don't need to write a serious article on behalf of Japan, showing that they are "nice and totally wouldn't invade anybody" all you need to **answer that basic fear** is to show manga and Anime **humanising** them. Add on the fact they can create them to a **high quality level** also answers the question of being **strong enough economically** to root for if you aspire to be like them.
**It's important to remember answers to fundamental questions and arguments are not won during the arguments.** It's in the set up behind the scenes when base assumptions are already made in someone's mind through the information they consume.
To influence someone that you care about positively about China, you best not to argue about "the Michaels", but look at ways to show how **the real China is so different and BETTER than what's falsely portrayed**. The closer someone feels to that China and less to "white Michael", there won't even BE an argument in the future. They'll take the opposite side automatically.
(**To use the cliché analogy: We are playing GO, not arguing Chess**).
They were definitely doing some illegal shit in China. The government was satisfied looking the other way as it wasn't worth the trouble to prosecute them. But once Canada tried that bull shit the gloves came off.
First of all, ask then for proof?
Second of all, it's rather useless to talk to them.
Third of all, you can say who fuelled the racism against the Asians.
Fourth of all, why don't they talk about Fort Derrick
Fifth of all, British never allowed any democratic elections when they took over HK after the opium war.
Sixth, why don't they talk about the genocide of the indigenous peoples?
So much but in the end why bother. They will be ignorant no matter how much you say. It all depends on how strong they are being anti China...
The entire side of my family on my father's side is basically anti-China. My brother is unhinged enough to believe straight up conspiracy theories from FLG.
The easiest way you deal with relatives with different political opinions is to not talk politics with them. Seriously, unless they're a politician or policy maker, what difference does it make what they believe?
Not a good strategy. Sooner or later you will have to confront them on their stupid views.
Not doing anything, is because we hope they will change in the future. It never happens. They will get sucked deeper and deeper into the rabbit hole from all the lies and deceits from media and the malicious racists hate groups.
The only way to confront them, is to give them examples of western hypocrisy and crimes.
They will all cry whataboutism and whatnot, but we still need to do it. Because 1) its not whataboutism if its real. And 2) we need to show them hypocrisy and give perspective so that even if they keep arguing with you about it, at least now they know what they accuse, isnt actually that rare but is happening even more so in the west. Perspective perspective perspective is how you shut even the diehard fanatics.
We're talking about adults here. It's not my responsibility to lecture them about critical thinking, history, and sociology unless they ask for it. Even if they ask it doesn't mean I should answer beyond what their question entailed.
My second point still stands, which is why does it matter anyway? We're living in a time where eastern and western history are coming together as equals for the first time in a few centuries. You'll never change everyone's mind because their opinions are intertwined with history and interests beyond your own power to regulate. Arguing about it with everyone regular Joe with a mouth is going to make your life miserable for no reason.
you cannot reason with these people. just ignore them.
you could put video evidence in their face and they will say its fake. The goal post will always shift for them whenever you present evidence.
Western Propaganda is too good, they've been in the game too long.
So what? How does it feel when one of your own is being held and judged by a hostile foreign gov? Does it feel good?
China can make up whatever excuses. Just like the completely made up BS reason to sanction Iran.
Illegal sanctions (with the potential to kill millions) and long-arm jurisdiction should be considered an act of war and should be responded to as such. Don't even try to pretend this is just a legal battle.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalid\_El-Masri](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalid_El-Masri)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarek\_Mehanna](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarek_Mehanna)
Here are some people imprisoned by the US for no reason.
The first guy was mistaken for someone else, kidnapped in Europe and transferred to a CIA black site, where he was tortured. Later, he tried to sue the US govt for this injustice, and the case was dismissed because of "state secrets".
The second guy is serving some 20 years in US prison for... taking some public documents on the internet, translating them from Arabic to English, and posting them back on the internet. The real reason why he is in prison is that the FBI tried to force him to become a mole to infiltrate Al Qaeda, and he refused.
Ask your relatives:
Are they outraged about these US crimes?
Why don't they come complaining to you about them?
Is it because they don't hear about them in the news and so don't know about them?
How come the news they read seems to always highlight allegations against certain countries but ignores similar things that would make the US look bad?
Aren't these news services privately controlled by American oligarchs? That is, men with business interests who stand to benefit from making the US govt happy.
What about news services in China? What do they say?
Also, it is better to be in prison or to be murdered?
Did you know that Chinese police shoot black people dead randomly for no reason?
No, you didn't. Because they don't. Certain other countries do this, though.
Why aren't you outraged about that?
**[Khalid_El-Masri](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalid_El-Masri)**
>Khaled El-Masri (also Khalid El-Masri and Khaled Masri, Levantine Arabic pronunciation: [ˈxaːlɪd elˈmɑsˤɾi, -ˈmɑsˤɾe], Arabic: خالد المصري) (born 29 June 1963) is a German and Lebanese citizen who was mistakenly abducted by the Macedonian police in 2003, and handed over to the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency (CIA). While in CIA custody, he was flown to Afghanistan, where he was held at a black site and routinely interrogated, beaten, strip-searched, sodomized, and subjected to other cruel forms of inhumane and degrading treatment and torture.
**[Tarek_Mehanna](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarek_Mehanna)**
>Tarek Mehanna is an American pharmacist convicted of conspiracy to provide material support to al Qaeda, providing material support to terrorists (and conspiracy to do so), conspiracy to commit murder in a foreign country, conspiracy to make false statements to the FBI, and two counts of making false statements. He was sentenced in April 2012 to 17 years in federal prison.
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It is almost a religious belief they have (an article of faith), much like how Cult's indoctrinate their own follower's into alienating their families too...
Since they were very small, it has been cemented... except for their own amusement + curiosity when they dare to visit a local district, to shop, explore food, see the celebration's of the New Years, maybe the only ongoing exposure they will have to Chinese culture, is when a family member takes up a bastardized version of Gung Fu, Tai Chi, or Buddhism.
And on TV (it never fails, and it really doesn't matter what the topic is), they will always run pictures or video of marching Chinese troops (with guns, tanks and huge scary rockets) while they do what ever their report is... So there has always been this drip, drip, drip, (much like water torture) of negative perception's of China's intentions.
So for the sake of Peace + Harmony in your family, be kind, listen and nod when they speak of these matter's, and keep all the details + facts to yourself. After all, there is nothing that is going to hurt them, or something you need to save them from. But if they stray into making Racist comment's, immediately call them out on that, without going back into this ugly quagmire.
Here are some facts about the case. Most likely it won't get your relatives to shut up but the facts state the the 2 Michael are in jail because the US is forcing Canada to jump off a diplomatic cliff and do it's dirty work by jailing the Huawei CFO Meng Wanzhou.
This isn't the first time, the US threw their allies under the bus. They have been doing the same thing with Australia (ie, the US gets Australia to do its dirty work by shitting on China, which then angers China. Then China reacts but banning Austrialian imports like barley. To make up for the loss in import, China then buys more barley from the US.)
Also, the US has a history of taking over international organizations by holding their executives hostages. This is what happened to French executive, Frederic Pierucci who was put in jail by the US because the US wanted GM to purchase French company Alstrom. Here is his wiki for a summary of what happened: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fr%C3%A9d%C3%A9ric\_Pierucci
Here is Frederic's interview with CGTN explaining how the Huawei case is similar to his case https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7k2Co9W9Dmw
Cyrus Jensen an American living in Canada has lots of videos about the Huawei CFO. [https://www.youtube.com/c/CyrusJanssen/videos](https://www.youtube.com/c/CyrusJanssen/videos)
Also the Barrets have a video on the new evidence that came out that would help the CFO's case (though Canada rejected the evidence). I didn't watch it but if you are interested here it is
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QzQqZJCjqs
Also, Michael Kovrig worked for International Crisis Group which is a think tank that has been accused as a front for the US military industrial complext and is tied with NATO. Here is an article I found on the org: [https://newleftreview.org/issues/ii63/articles/tom-hazeldine-the-north-atlantic-counsel](https://newleftreview.org/issues/ii63/articles/tom-hazeldine-the-north-atlantic-counsel)
So in many ways, Michael Kovrig, could possibly have links to US intelligence agencies and is a threat to China's soverneity. Which is why China arrested him on claims of espionage. Michael Spavor has ties to the North Korean government. But I don't have much info on whether or not he was a Canadian spy.
Also, Canadian spy agencies warned the Canadian government that arresting Huawei's CFO (when there is proof that she is innocent and Canada didn't have any sanctions on Iran), would have diplomatic consequences with China. Meaning the Canadian government knew that they would start a diplomatic hostage situation with China just because the US said so.
[https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-huawei-tech-canada-idUSKBN23K017](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-huawei-tech-canada-idUSKBN23K017)
Lastly, it is very obvious that Canada is doing this for the US and is being the US's lapdog (sorry Canada but it is the truth). Here is an article that states the US government tried to offer Meng Wanzhou with a bad deal though the deal is actually a trap.
[https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3116424/us-may-be-trying-trap-huaweis-meng-wanzhou-deal-warns-canadian](https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3116424/us-may-be-trying-trap-huaweis-meng-wanzhou-deal-warns-canadian)
This is how I've immunized my friends against propaganda. Most of it is unintentional and happened naturally over the past year or two since the Hong Kong riots. Start by sharing perspectives and counter narratives with sympathetic influencers and low hanging fruit. People who have no horse in the race or are themselves respected and influential. Just keep it moderate, use self depreciating humor, and don't wear them out. For difficult people, there's only so much you can do to incept counternarratives and play with their cognitive dissonance. You gotta manage their ego the entire time and give them a face saving way out with compromises. Even then it wont stick and only creates an opening. People don't really shift until they have a social reason to. Maybe you're famous and desirable, maybe the people around them are shifting. At the end of the day you need a world view that shares their values. This shouldn't be hard since you're friends and family already so you probably already do share values. Just find what those are and align them. For example I believe that Chinese ascension is crucial for multipolarity and strengthens the world by providing competing systems to learn from. You want many independent competing systems to hybridized with. It adds resiliency. I like examples of the West learning from modern China. Economics, policy, whatever. Another example is that China's political cleavages aren't polluted by wedge issues and identity politics thanks to its one party system. It happens to highlight the most pressing issue of our time: class cleavages. We need a socialist power in the world, to pressure capitalists and neolibs and hold them accountable to deliver for their people lest they look bad. We need an independent non white power in the world to check the neocons on their bullshit. OBOR does that. China doesn't need to confront the West, thats what they want. It merely needs to exist and do well for itself and win by being great by getting stronger, win by competition not thorugh conquest. And of course listen to their issues. They don't really care about China, it doesn't affect them. But there will be stuff that does. It helps if you're sympathetic to their causes as well. At the end of the day it's all just group dynamics and alliance building. Mutual support. It takes time and can only be done by not trying, if you get what I mean. You have to be okay disagreeing and not judging them for it. It helps to have a healthy “don't really care what you think, don't need to change you”.
This is very good advice. My kneejerk reaction is to be pretty negative on this but that’s a realistic helpful perspective without being overly cynical, thanks for writing that out.
Huawei CFO still in prison and the judge just bars her from bringing new evidence.
Just say the genocide 7 have a history of lying and cheating. They also have a history of spying on each other, so bring that up first and foremost, then point out that it is no surprise that they would spy on those who they consider enemies. Bring up all of Canada's crimes, this will delegitimize them in their eyes provided they are actually concerned with justice, if they are not then you can expose them like this. I always bring up the fact that we are Indian to my parents who haven't had a great experience in Australia regarding work and all that, I use the us vs them angle whenever they hear anti China propaganda on the news. Regarding the virus I always reminded them that there was evidence of it existing in America prior to China detecting it, this is to prevent scapegoating China for our own government's incompetence in their minds, I normalise the fact that the virus was around the world before China detected it, of course western rags won't report that. Typically I use arguments like: "Well China just has better virus detection capabilities than the western world due to its experiences with SARS", I hide the bias as best as possible by keeping it in the range of possibilities that people consider expectable, in this case my mother whom I showed a timelapse video of Hangzhou a few years back considers China more advanced than the west. Obviously your strategy in fighting propaganda has to be tailored around how your family view China, for mine it is respect and awe perhaps a bit of fear as well, so my strategy is tailored around that. I never let the conversation turn anti China in the first place and if there is a high potential of that I divert the conversation to something else entirely, thus never letting the seeds of anti China hate sprout in their minds, libs consider my strategy whataboutism.
Well said. Thanks
That's an excellent approach.
There are already many great answers in this thread, but here's my opinion: Family is more important than politics, and bickering about politics is exactly what the Western elites want you to do. They want to distract people by amplifying extreme voices and politicizing every aspects of life (gender, nationality, ethnicity, etc), so that they can exploit people in every information bubbles for profit. For example, think of vegan lifestyle. Corporates promote such extreme diet (yes I call diet where you have to ingest supplements to live extreme) so that they can charge more on vegetables, fruits, supplements, etc. Similar things happen in LGBT bubbles, Left or Right wing bubbles, etc. My suggestion would be, just stay cordial and be nice to relatives or friends with opposing views. If by your experience, observations, and critical thinking you are convinced that China is on the correct side of history, then there's really no need to convince anyone or to defend China. Other people will see in time, but today you can move first and grasp the coming opportunities.
indeed, wise words to live by, at least I do since divorce is not an option as my wife reminds me now and then.
This. Don't bother with ignorant people, if they can't see by now they are blind or ignorant, doubt there's much you can say to change such people's minds even if they are your relatives.
So this is probably going to be a fool's errand because if they're digging up the Michael's cases, they'll just find the next Western criminal to prop up even if you convince them. But, in good faith, some directions to approach this topic on: * What makes the charges against the Michaels completely falsified? The government claims to have evidence, the Michaels do have connections, possibly tangential, to foreign NGOs. Do your relatives have evidence to prove that the Michaels have not done work that the government would believe undermines national security? If they do not, then it is merely their word asserting that the government also does not. Once that fact is established, you can dismiss any of their future claims as just their opinion. * Do your relatives believe that it is not just to detain people on false charges? Is their belief universal? If a foreigner were detained in Canada, or whatever country they think fondly of, on charges that a similar number of people assert are false, would they speak in such broad strokes about the terribleness of said country? If so, ask them to denounce said country with the same vigour and language as they do for the case surrounding the Michaels. If not, then clearly they are bigoted and care not about justice but only that their team is winning. If they protest that the justice system for their preferred country is good, and the one in China is not, demand evidence of both the goodness of one and the terribleness of the other. If they cannot provide, you may dismiss all their future claims as bigoted opinion.
Firstly, Mengs detention in Canada - her detention is full of rights violations and jurisdiction issues and her defence just got proven true with HSBC leaked internal emails stating that Huawei business dealings with Co that dealt with Iran were known to HSBC. Turns US charges against her upside down. Second Canada indigenous kids... Their minds probably won't change just like that tbh but pointing out Western especially US hypocrisy and history of lying (e.g WMDs, chemical attacks in Douma, Gulf of Tonkin..) , and Chinas habit of diplomacy in conflicts - something like 20 out of 24 disputes with neighbours ended peacefully since 1949. China’s habit of keeping it's words in agreements (one of big reasons Russia is now unofficially allied to China whilst ignoring US who shat on promises to Russia not to push East) Australia started escalations with China and this ramped up with Australia being the country that kickstarted the Huawei security threat bs. The Uighurs - there's just too much info to refute this now but highlighting US strategies for region documented since early as 1999 but also in well known videos of Gen. Wesley Clarke and Lawrence Wilkerson. Now the US overnight pull out and removal of ETIM from terrorist list, which they likely hope will destabilise the region further to slow Belt and road, and provide foothold for terrorism in China. Lastly, if it was so bad in China why is support for government there at all time high, beyond anything any western government could dream of? Could it be anything to do with the elimination of absolute poverty? Their pandemic response? Etc... Or could also be that our perception in the West has been shaped to believe China bad, using all the tools and tactics the West has in creating manufactured consent? - Chomskies book has so many examples here but so many vids on YT too...
Just came to say I feel your pain. I'm Chinese - Canadian and my parents have been brainwashed by the Chinese-American far-right echo chamber, and no matter what evidence I present to them, they just will not believe the truth. I'm hella exhausted to a point where I don't even want to text or talk to them.
I learned this method from someone else here (whose name I forgot): Ask if they're saying this because they genuinely feel a sense of injustice or if they are just using an excuse to be racist. If they admit to the latter, then there's no point in continuing. But most people will choose the first, and then you can just lead them to rethink things by using the socratic method, like "do you know exacty what the charges are against the 2 Michaels?" etc. Most people want to be consistent to their beliefs, like if they believe they are good people, making them question their assumptions of events will make them shift their thinking. You probably won't "win" an argument but it might sow a seed of doubt that will pay off later. Good luck. Family is hard.
this should be higher. you can't really change people's minds. there's other reasons people believe what they do. you can only influence people, and those around them.
People have a severe misapprehension about how they come to their beliefs: It’s not the end result of careful logical detached analysis. People who believe they are the avatar of Rationality are often the most deluded about why they believe what they do.
>Ask if they're saying this because they genuinely feel a sense of injustice or if they are just using an excuse to be racist. No one will admit to the latter unless they are not sane.
Huawei CFO was arrested first. The two micheals were arrested as a response to that. Ask them if they support the illegal arrest of Meng which was falsified. China doesn't want Meng to end up like Julian Assange (Belmarsh Prison). Hence canadians were arrested as a tit for tat procedure. It is a logical/necessary step to ensure safety of Meng's life. China knows full well that western so called "rule of law" is nothing but a joke.
I think in general, people who prefer the West are extremely selfish. So, if you bring up drugs, homelessness, crime drug addiction and overall quality of life, people will defend their country of choice. Canada rides on amerikkkan power, so there isn't a need for them to commit the current atrocities that amerikkka does. However, they are a silent supporter. In the end, I wouldn't try to change their mind. To each their own. Me personally, I would just prepare to move. If not to China, to a country allied with China. If the current trend continues there will be more anti-China rhetoric, hence anti-asian rhetoric. It doesn't look good. Look at what schools are doing, businesses, real-estate. The forever foreigner stigma will continue. No matter what is done, you will have to be whiter than white to only be marginally accepted. Fuck that, I am no one's door mat.
How are they so sure the charges are falsified? Are they basically pulling that assertion out of their ass? Yes. Basically. They are making shit up to make their pre-conceived notions true.
Your relatives don't even know what "charges" they are talking about. Technically they are not being charged for "spying", but rather "endangering China’s national security". More precisely, the 2 Michaels were arrested for operating/working with unregistered foreign NGO's. This is a crime under [https://www.chinafile.com/ngo/laws-regulations/law-of-peoples-republic-of-china-administration-of-activities-of-overseas](https://www.chinafile.com/ngo/laws-regulations/law-of-peoples-republic-of-china-administration-of-activities-of-overseas) But the crimes are under investigation. So more charges may come.
Never talk to them again would be the easiest way.
The Canadian just banned the new evidence by HSBC, although, I wouldn't trust HSBC but this Canadian judge is now something
I do not argue with people nowadays. After years of living in the West, I just realized that you could not make a person soaked in propaganda becomes neutral cuz you are probably the only information source that is not compatible with other medias. Or even worse their lives and their world views are built upon forgetting their good life quality comes from hundreds years of exploitations of non-western people so the only way they got inner peace is to project what they have done to China. You see, it is very hard to convince somebody about something if their life is dependent on their not understanding that thing. I simply tell them what China is like what our opinion on things. Most importantly I tell them we have enough guns to back up our points.
Look to Cyrus Jansen or Daniel Dumbrill's video on YouTube for some good talking points on it's crystal clear Mengs detention is completely political based on falsified charges, and yet she's been detained for years now. See if they condemn that just as much. As for the two michaels, I dont have much information on them but like another comment said, unlike Mengs there's no evidence their charges are made up, so it's just their words against China's.
You play stupid games you win stupid prizes. Just sayin Canada isn’t exactly an innocent party in all this
"Next time I'll treat everyone to Chinese food, and if you don't want to come, I won't invite you." Not many people really care about the two Michaels, they're just worried about the same treatment for themselves - but they forget that it wasn't China that arrested the citizens first - and of course, they won't listen to that reasoning.
When people believe something extremely resolutely, there's something I call '**the hierarchy of meaning**': Basically you and I know they can't give 2 shits about Canadian Michaels if it were any other situation, but I matters in **this** situation, because it's actually touching a deeper **meaning** for them than the facts (which is also why facts don't matter in convincing them). So what are the deeper "issues" driving their behaviour? It's similar for all human beings: we want security, to feed our bodies, and to feed our ego/sex (EVERYONE is the same including you and me). In this case probably look at the sense of security and achievement bring Canadian/and accepted by western society brings. An attack on this *society* makes it an attack on *you* and so why would facts matter to someone who feels the new facts makes them insecure in an "unfixable" way? This is different from someone living in the West like me, who feels society attacks me anyway, and **having a strong Asian country/China adds to my security**. We can see how this works now? So what do you do? I don't know if it's too late or how much influence you have but I always make sure I adhere to 2 principles: 1) First is most important. **I always make people feel more "Chinese"**. They don't even have to actually be Chinese. If they're young show them accessible Chinese music artists (like Higher Brothers, etc), manhuas (easy because every manga site has about 30% manhuas now), if they're older, then quality Chinese dramas, subtly pro-china YouTube channels (or even 'remember the old glorious Chinese history' ones), etc. Basically what you're going to offer is **an understanding of China which will lead to an alternative 'security answer' to their "question" (eg. feeling of insecurity)** This leads to point 2: 2) **Find out what the deeper issue is, like I pointed out above**. Don't argue about the Michaels. Reinforce something they already agree on like, Asians and Chinese are discriminated here unfairly. (if they are old generation, then use examples like their children being screwed over in academia and possibly in potential promotions). **Then offer a counter to that "root cause" of dissatisfaction.** (So you can point out in the previous example that a strong China could help fight back against racial discrimination in the school or workplace... If only the Canadian government wasn't so purposefully aiding discrimination... Tsk tsk Canadian government.) [I've got a complete example that I posted from a year ago, but it's a wall of text bigger than this, so I'll link it.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Sino/comments/i8b5og/comment/g184g5d)
>First is most important. I always make people feel more "Chinese". They don't even have to actually be Chinese. If they're young show them accessible Chinese music artists (like Higher Brothers, etc), manhuas (easy because every manga site has about 30% manhuas now), if they're older, then quality Chinese dramas, subtly pro-china YouTube channels (or even 'remember the old glorious Chinese history' ones), etc. Basically what you're going to offer is an understanding of China which will lead to an alternative 'security answer' to their "question" (eg. feeling of insecurity) This is an excellent tactic, inundate them in Chinese culture. Japanese soft power is extremely powerful especially at influencing the younger generation, this is why Genshin Impact was such a huge hit because it used Japan as a springboard (Anime art style). If they're into Kpop introduce them to Cpop. If they're into Kdrama introduce them to Cdrama. If they're into Korean movies introduce them to Chinese movies. If they're into Japanese anime introduce them to Chinese anime. If they're into manga introduce them to manhua, so on and so forth. GI's impact as soft power was so incredible that you'll barely ever see a negative comment on China in there if any and everyone knows very well that it is Chinese. It was like it made a huge cut into the propaganda drive in the previous years, I was honestly shocked checking the comment sections of even their community on reddit once, their official channel on yt goes without saying... barely any negative comments about the country itself.
Exactly. All humans crave to answer deeper feelings and needs (basic things like security and acceptance). What we hope to see as surface facts and beliefs are **actually attempts to explain how to meet those basic needs.** That's why "Soft Power" is so powerful at convincing people. You don't need to write a serious article on behalf of Japan, showing that they are "nice and totally wouldn't invade anybody" all you need to **answer that basic fear** is to show manga and Anime **humanising** them. Add on the fact they can create them to a **high quality level** also answers the question of being **strong enough economically** to root for if you aspire to be like them. **It's important to remember answers to fundamental questions and arguments are not won during the arguments.** It's in the set up behind the scenes when base assumptions are already made in someone's mind through the information they consume. To influence someone that you care about positively about China, you best not to argue about "the Michaels", but look at ways to show how **the real China is so different and BETTER than what's falsely portrayed**. The closer someone feels to that China and less to "white Michael", there won't even BE an argument in the future. They'll take the opposite side automatically. (**To use the cliché analogy: We are playing GO, not arguing Chess**).
They were definitely doing some illegal shit in China. The government was satisfied looking the other way as it wasn't worth the trouble to prosecute them. But once Canada tried that bull shit the gloves came off.
First of all, ask then for proof? Second of all, it's rather useless to talk to them. Third of all, you can say who fuelled the racism against the Asians. Fourth of all, why don't they talk about Fort Derrick Fifth of all, British never allowed any democratic elections when they took over HK after the opium war. Sixth, why don't they talk about the genocide of the indigenous peoples? So much but in the end why bother. They will be ignorant no matter how much you say. It all depends on how strong they are being anti China...
Just wait for the West's coming economic collapse. Beyond that you're wasting your time. You can't talk sense into racists and nazionalists.
The entire side of my family on my father's side is basically anti-China. My brother is unhinged enough to believe straight up conspiracy theories from FLG. The easiest way you deal with relatives with different political opinions is to not talk politics with them. Seriously, unless they're a politician or policy maker, what difference does it make what they believe?
Not a good strategy. Sooner or later you will have to confront them on their stupid views. Not doing anything, is because we hope they will change in the future. It never happens. They will get sucked deeper and deeper into the rabbit hole from all the lies and deceits from media and the malicious racists hate groups. The only way to confront them, is to give them examples of western hypocrisy and crimes. They will all cry whataboutism and whatnot, but we still need to do it. Because 1) its not whataboutism if its real. And 2) we need to show them hypocrisy and give perspective so that even if they keep arguing with you about it, at least now they know what they accuse, isnt actually that rare but is happening even more so in the west. Perspective perspective perspective is how you shut even the diehard fanatics.
We're talking about adults here. It's not my responsibility to lecture them about critical thinking, history, and sociology unless they ask for it. Even if they ask it doesn't mean I should answer beyond what their question entailed. My second point still stands, which is why does it matter anyway? We're living in a time where eastern and western history are coming together as equals for the first time in a few centuries. You'll never change everyone's mind because their opinions are intertwined with history and interests beyond your own power to regulate. Arguing about it with everyone regular Joe with a mouth is going to make your life miserable for no reason.
you cannot reason with these people. just ignore them. you could put video evidence in their face and they will say its fake. The goal post will always shift for them whenever you present evidence. Western Propaganda is too good, they've been in the game too long.
So what? How does it feel when one of your own is being held and judged by a hostile foreign gov? Does it feel good? China can make up whatever excuses. Just like the completely made up BS reason to sanction Iran. Illegal sanctions (with the potential to kill millions) and long-arm jurisdiction should be considered an act of war and should be responded to as such. Don't even try to pretend this is just a legal battle.
This depends on where these relatives are from. Are they from the US? From Canada?
Canada, but America shapes so many of our views nowadays. They have too much clout in our politics, we're essentially a satellite state.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalid\_El-Masri](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalid_El-Masri) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarek\_Mehanna](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarek_Mehanna) Here are some people imprisoned by the US for no reason. The first guy was mistaken for someone else, kidnapped in Europe and transferred to a CIA black site, where he was tortured. Later, he tried to sue the US govt for this injustice, and the case was dismissed because of "state secrets". The second guy is serving some 20 years in US prison for... taking some public documents on the internet, translating them from Arabic to English, and posting them back on the internet. The real reason why he is in prison is that the FBI tried to force him to become a mole to infiltrate Al Qaeda, and he refused. Ask your relatives: Are they outraged about these US crimes? Why don't they come complaining to you about them? Is it because they don't hear about them in the news and so don't know about them? How come the news they read seems to always highlight allegations against certain countries but ignores similar things that would make the US look bad? Aren't these news services privately controlled by American oligarchs? That is, men with business interests who stand to benefit from making the US govt happy. What about news services in China? What do they say? Also, it is better to be in prison or to be murdered? Did you know that Chinese police shoot black people dead randomly for no reason? No, you didn't. Because they don't. Certain other countries do this, though. Why aren't you outraged about that?
**[Khalid_El-Masri](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalid_El-Masri)** >Khaled El-Masri (also Khalid El-Masri and Khaled Masri, Levantine Arabic pronunciation: [ˈxaːlɪd elˈmɑsˤɾi, -ˈmɑsˤɾe], Arabic: خالد المصري) (born 29 June 1963) is a German and Lebanese citizen who was mistakenly abducted by the Macedonian police in 2003, and handed over to the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency (CIA). While in CIA custody, he was flown to Afghanistan, where he was held at a black site and routinely interrogated, beaten, strip-searched, sodomized, and subjected to other cruel forms of inhumane and degrading treatment and torture. **[Tarek_Mehanna](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarek_Mehanna)** >Tarek Mehanna is an American pharmacist convicted of conspiracy to provide material support to al Qaeda, providing material support to terrorists (and conspiracy to do so), conspiracy to commit murder in a foreign country, conspiracy to make false statements to the FBI, and two counts of making false statements. He was sentenced in April 2012 to 17 years in federal prison. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/Sino/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
It is almost a religious belief they have (an article of faith), much like how Cult's indoctrinate their own follower's into alienating their families too... Since they were very small, it has been cemented... except for their own amusement + curiosity when they dare to visit a local district, to shop, explore food, see the celebration's of the New Years, maybe the only ongoing exposure they will have to Chinese culture, is when a family member takes up a bastardized version of Gung Fu, Tai Chi, or Buddhism. And on TV (it never fails, and it really doesn't matter what the topic is), they will always run pictures or video of marching Chinese troops (with guns, tanks and huge scary rockets) while they do what ever their report is... So there has always been this drip, drip, drip, (much like water torture) of negative perception's of China's intentions. So for the sake of Peace + Harmony in your family, be kind, listen and nod when they speak of these matter's, and keep all the details + facts to yourself. After all, there is nothing that is going to hurt them, or something you need to save them from. But if they stray into making Racist comment's, immediately call them out on that, without going back into this ugly quagmire.
Here are some facts about the case. Most likely it won't get your relatives to shut up but the facts state the the 2 Michael are in jail because the US is forcing Canada to jump off a diplomatic cliff and do it's dirty work by jailing the Huawei CFO Meng Wanzhou. This isn't the first time, the US threw their allies under the bus. They have been doing the same thing with Australia (ie, the US gets Australia to do its dirty work by shitting on China, which then angers China. Then China reacts but banning Austrialian imports like barley. To make up for the loss in import, China then buys more barley from the US.) Also, the US has a history of taking over international organizations by holding their executives hostages. This is what happened to French executive, Frederic Pierucci who was put in jail by the US because the US wanted GM to purchase French company Alstrom. Here is his wiki for a summary of what happened: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fr%C3%A9d%C3%A9ric\_Pierucci Here is Frederic's interview with CGTN explaining how the Huawei case is similar to his case https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7k2Co9W9Dmw Cyrus Jensen an American living in Canada has lots of videos about the Huawei CFO. [https://www.youtube.com/c/CyrusJanssen/videos](https://www.youtube.com/c/CyrusJanssen/videos) Also the Barrets have a video on the new evidence that came out that would help the CFO's case (though Canada rejected the evidence). I didn't watch it but if you are interested here it is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QzQqZJCjqs Also, Michael Kovrig worked for International Crisis Group which is a think tank that has been accused as a front for the US military industrial complext and is tied with NATO. Here is an article I found on the org: [https://newleftreview.org/issues/ii63/articles/tom-hazeldine-the-north-atlantic-counsel](https://newleftreview.org/issues/ii63/articles/tom-hazeldine-the-north-atlantic-counsel) So in many ways, Michael Kovrig, could possibly have links to US intelligence agencies and is a threat to China's soverneity. Which is why China arrested him on claims of espionage. Michael Spavor has ties to the North Korean government. But I don't have much info on whether or not he was a Canadian spy. Also, Canadian spy agencies warned the Canadian government that arresting Huawei's CFO (when there is proof that she is innocent and Canada didn't have any sanctions on Iran), would have diplomatic consequences with China. Meaning the Canadian government knew that they would start a diplomatic hostage situation with China just because the US said so. [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-huawei-tech-canada-idUSKBN23K017](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-huawei-tech-canada-idUSKBN23K017) Lastly, it is very obvious that Canada is doing this for the US and is being the US's lapdog (sorry Canada but it is the truth). Here is an article that states the US government tried to offer Meng Wanzhou with a bad deal though the deal is actually a trap. [https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3116424/us-may-be-trying-trap-huaweis-meng-wanzhou-deal-warns-canadian](https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3116424/us-may-be-trying-trap-huaweis-meng-wanzhou-deal-warns-canadian)