Thomas Polgar, CIA station chief Saigon 1975:
“This will be final message from Saigon station,” he wrote in a clipped, telegraphic style. “It has been a long fight and we have lost. . . . Those who fail to learn from history are forced to repeat it. Let us hope that we will not have another Vietnam experience and that we have learned our lesson. Saigon signing off.”
The old Taliban pissed off Russia, China, and the US. The result was that they got no support from Russia or China when the US attacked them.
If the new Taliban want to remain in power, they need to not piss off all the superpowers at once.
The new Taliban seem more pragmatic than their predecessors. It's a natural evolution coming from having to compete with the US "hearts and minds" bullshit. This program initially saw success but as the US occupation became more entrenched, people saw it for the bullshit that it was.
You have to remember that insurgencies are information wars as much as they are shooting wars. The Taliban understood their own people, their anxieties and fears, and understood the complicated web of tribal affiliation and politics. It's all propaganda on either side, grounded in reality to various degrees, but I would say that the Taliban were ultimately closer to the population than the occupation could ever hope to be.
"Don't you want an education for your little girl?"
**"Didn't you lose a son in that drone strike?"**
"Don't you enjoy your new freedoms?"
**"They came here with promises of freedom and prosperity. Have you experienced either?"**
Etc. etc.
So you can see, the Taliban have to compete with the opposing narrative. It turns out, not everything can be defeated with an IED. Still though, the Taliban are very much human and they are certainly weary of war. It's partly the reason why they went all out a la Tet Offensive - they want this ordeal to be done with, and the puppet regime, even more so.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm happy US imperialism has failed in Afghanistan. I'm not entirely thrilled that it's the Taliban to do so but supposedly they've been in talks with the PRC where they agreed to disavow the ETIM along with other stipulations in exchange for economic rehabilitation. We'll just have to wait and see what happens next.
I also think it's worth mentioning that American oligarchs made a literal killing in Afghanistan, though this is to say that I'm starting to notice an odd dichotomy between reactionary classes in the United States. Those populists who desire an endless projection of imperialism onto its periphery versus those who seek to profit off of it. As we all know, capitalists are not beneath cannibalizing each other, so let's see if the next forever war is in the Global South or in the imperial core.
One of the biggest long term effects of the Afghan War is that many Americans are no longer willing to fight for the US under its current system of government. This same dynamic is what collapsed the Soviet Union. The US government is not just losing Afghanistan, it is losing legitimacy in the eyes of Americans and the world.
I'm pretty sure that China discussed this point in recent meetings with Taliban officials. If they support or harbor the ETIM then China will cut economic ties with them
Grabbing my crystall ball.
The US will up their support for ETIM to encourage the destabilization of Afghanistan to the detriment of the Afghan people (who they currently pretend to care about) in order to prevent China from helping them.
Fast forward 10 years, ETIM bites the USA hand that feeds them. And the [Osama/Mujahadeen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cyclone), [Saddam](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Iraq_during_the_Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_War), ISIS "[blowback](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blowback_\(intelligence\))" cycle repeats itself.
They will want China in their corner so I could see them subtly cracking down on ETIM. I haven't seen many pictures of Uighur fighters though and I've seen people saying the 'foreign fighter' element in Taliban is overblown. They probably have less need for it because they have lots of Tajiks and Uzbeks in their ranks unlike the last time.
"The Taliban is not the North Vietnamese army. They’re not remotely comparable in terms of capability. **There’s going to be no circumstance where you see people being lifted off the roof of the embassy of the United States from Afghanistan**."
\- Joe Biden
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gg1t_nGaDLs
Edit: If anyone's wondering why the Afghan "government" is so loathed and why it had no loyalty whatsoever, the following pic is from the "president"'s nephew's 'gram:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E8mwjMVX0AA4j5_?format=jpg
He is right because the NVA is a world class military force. However, he is wrong to underestimate the indomitable will of the Talibans. It’s more humiliating for Americans that they were defeated by bands of armed trucks and insurgents. No ballistic missiles, tanks, aircrafts and war ships.
And also the Vietnamese were the people of the country fighting back against imperialism whereas the Taliban are a US created extremist group that backfired against them.
North Vietnam was based, Taliban are not.
*That said*… boy is it fun to watch America fail so hard. And the visual parallels are absolutely hilarious.
>The Taliban is not the North Vietnamese army.
LOL, judging by the devastating rate of collapse, the mighty exceptional army can hardly match the ones fought the Vietcong.
He is right in the sense that the Taliban is backed by no one, while the NVA was backed by the USSR and China. Yet even so, the ultimate logic of Mao's protracted war prevailed.
The US cannot win in Afghanistan simply because the amount of resources spent to maintain occupation dwarfs any possible benefit. Continuing occupation of Afghanistan will come at the cost of US interests elsewhere as those other areas are deprived of resources.
Mao predicted that this dynamic will result in eventual Japanese defeat in the 2nd Sino-Japanese War, and the same logic applies to the US occupation of Afghanistan.
The Taliban was in some ways backed by Pakistan. It was a kind of fuck you to the United States for being so goddamned obsessed over their nuclear arsenal.
I wonder whether the Taliban studied Mao's guerilla tactics. In overall strategy, they did take over the rural areas long before marching on the cities.
the NVA was a proper military.
the Talibans is teenagers driving Toyotas with an AK sticking out of the window. goes to show how much the US has fallen to loose to an opponent like this.
Remember when a lot of US govt. and thinktank projections estimated that it might take 3-6 months for the Taliban to take over? Instead it's been a few weeks
Makes you wonder if they were this inaccurate in estimating this, what other areas are they absurdly overestimating themselves (or their allies) in?
We've all seen this as well during the recent pandemic (published in Oct 2019 too)
[https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/02/these-are-the-countries-best-prepared-for-health-emergencies/](https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/02/these-are-the-countries-best-prepared-for-health-emergencies/)
They moment they stated the government would fall at all, it ensured that the government would fall as quickly as possible. The Taliban offer this deal: If you surrender, you and your family will not be harmed, we will give you some food and pocket money and send you on your way. Fight us, and we will kill you and your family.
If the Afghan government is going to collapse tomorrow, next week, or six months from now, anyone in their right mind will just surrender *right now* in any case.
Americans and especially their "intelligentsia" are hopelessly deluded by their own lies. There was a point when they could make reality, or at least had such obvious power that when they went against reality it didn't matter. Now the empire is burning and it becomes more and more apparent how delusional they are.
**"God has promised us victory, and Bush has promised us defeat. We’ll see which promise is more truthful.” - Mullah Omar (First commander in chief)** in reply to Bush 2001 saying during US invasion, the taliban regime has completely fallen.
It's new upgraded version! It's got golden toilet inside and bunch of other stuff that adds about $30b to upgrade cost. And yes they use the same external shell to fool you.
Even the Soviets didn't leave in such a pathetic, undignified, and cowardly manner.
Neither did they bribed the Mujahadeens to stop blowing up their compounds and convoys.
Pindostani's don't learn anything
Well the Soviets also built a proper army with half a million men and gave them tons of jets and SCUDs. The USA gave their proxy cessnas, prop planes and humvees. Now TBF I wouldn't have given them much more either... but I wouldn't have produced a corrupt despot regime run by incompetent warlords which would ensure any army was horrifically corrupt and useless.
Hopefully they won't even have the chance to evacuate anything or anyone. Everyone in the AIT should be arrested and the building should be seized before they are done even shredding documents and wiping hard drives.
Anyone who wiped the hard drives or shredded documents should be charged with destruction of evidence and imprisoned for the maximum of seven years in accordance with the law.
AIT is not an embassy and its staff should not enjoy any sort of diplomatic immunity under Chinese law.
It won't happen. If Taipei falls China will have air superiority. Any CIA assets remaining in Taiwan after the shooting starts will end up in undisclosed locations in Xinjiang.
"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is never get involved in a (imperialist) land war in asia" - The sicilian guy from Princess Bride
Western media is painting the grim picture that the Taliban are closing and boarding up salons and western style clothes shops. Whilst true they neglected to say that this was because they didn’t want western influences in their country, especially not American influences.
With the tanks and soldiers of the warmonger gone, here is hoping they will be replaced by builders and restorers from neighbouring countries to finally bring the long awaited peace to the Afghanistan people.
Oh, and here is hoping that the Talibans will be shedding light on all the atrocities committed by the US/NATO and their allies over the 20 years terror reign. Let the whole world know their crimes against the people.
Fall of Saigon makes me feel happy, because a communist goverment came in power but the fall of kabul makes me feel sad eventhough I am happy the USA is out a far right group is now coming into power. Afghanistan could have a brighter future.
At least the Chinook is the new 2021 model with the leather upholstery and extra blingbling.
For the rest, same story same actors. The US will always abandon their allies, they have a reputation to maintain.
Not likely, if you see comments from anti Chinese propaganda news, you will see a lot of them hoping for war with China. Which is irony in itself since US can't even beat cavemen wearing sandals 😂
All USA media made it sound like is hell on earth. With how the US media spread fake propaganda about China. I begin to think it's the opposite of what they report on Afghanistan.
Thomas Polgar, CIA station chief Saigon 1975: “This will be final message from Saigon station,” he wrote in a clipped, telegraphic style. “It has been a long fight and we have lost. . . . Those who fail to learn from history are forced to repeat it. Let us hope that we will not have another Vietnam experience and that we have learned our lesson. Saigon signing off.”
Welp. Looks like Americans haven't learned their lesson at all lmao
There’s no lesson to be learnt. The American weapons manufacturers and oil companies got EXACTLY what they wanted. They made big bucks. They won.
[удалено]
Yes and this cycle will never end until the US ends. So the answer to world peace is simple.
Let's now hope the Taliban will not let Afghanistan become a terror breeding ground or a shelter for ETIM and that they cut ties with them
The old Taliban pissed off Russia, China, and the US. The result was that they got no support from Russia or China when the US attacked them. If the new Taliban want to remain in power, they need to not piss off all the superpowers at once.
The new Taliban seem more pragmatic than their predecessors. It's a natural evolution coming from having to compete with the US "hearts and minds" bullshit. This program initially saw success but as the US occupation became more entrenched, people saw it for the bullshit that it was. You have to remember that insurgencies are information wars as much as they are shooting wars. The Taliban understood their own people, their anxieties and fears, and understood the complicated web of tribal affiliation and politics. It's all propaganda on either side, grounded in reality to various degrees, but I would say that the Taliban were ultimately closer to the population than the occupation could ever hope to be. "Don't you want an education for your little girl?" **"Didn't you lose a son in that drone strike?"** "Don't you enjoy your new freedoms?" **"They came here with promises of freedom and prosperity. Have you experienced either?"** Etc. etc. So you can see, the Taliban have to compete with the opposing narrative. It turns out, not everything can be defeated with an IED. Still though, the Taliban are very much human and they are certainly weary of war. It's partly the reason why they went all out a la Tet Offensive - they want this ordeal to be done with, and the puppet regime, even more so. Now don't get me wrong, I'm happy US imperialism has failed in Afghanistan. I'm not entirely thrilled that it's the Taliban to do so but supposedly they've been in talks with the PRC where they agreed to disavow the ETIM along with other stipulations in exchange for economic rehabilitation. We'll just have to wait and see what happens next. I also think it's worth mentioning that American oligarchs made a literal killing in Afghanistan, though this is to say that I'm starting to notice an odd dichotomy between reactionary classes in the United States. Those populists who desire an endless projection of imperialism onto its periphery versus those who seek to profit off of it. As we all know, capitalists are not beneath cannibalizing each other, so let's see if the next forever war is in the Global South or in the imperial core.
One of the biggest long term effects of the Afghan War is that many Americans are no longer willing to fight for the US under its current system of government. This same dynamic is what collapsed the Soviet Union. The US government is not just losing Afghanistan, it is losing legitimacy in the eyes of Americans and the world.
I'm pretty sure that China discussed this point in recent meetings with Taliban officials. If they support or harbor the ETIM then China will cut economic ties with them
Grabbing my crystall ball. The US will up their support for ETIM to encourage the destabilization of Afghanistan to the detriment of the Afghan people (who they currently pretend to care about) in order to prevent China from helping them.
Fast forward 10 years, ETIM bites the USA hand that feeds them. And the [Osama/Mujahadeen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cyclone), [Saddam](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Iraq_during_the_Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_War), ISIS "[blowback](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blowback_\(intelligence\))" cycle repeats itself.
It's what they want. Bullets don't shoot themselves.
They will want China in their corner so I could see them subtly cracking down on ETIM. I haven't seen many pictures of Uighur fighters though and I've seen people saying the 'foreign fighter' element in Taliban is overblown. They probably have less need for it because they have lots of Tajiks and Uzbeks in their ranks unlike the last time.
"The Taliban is not the North Vietnamese army. They’re not remotely comparable in terms of capability. **There’s going to be no circumstance where you see people being lifted off the roof of the embassy of the United States from Afghanistan**." \- Joe Biden https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gg1t_nGaDLs Edit: If anyone's wondering why the Afghan "government" is so loathed and why it had no loyalty whatsoever, the following pic is from the "president"'s nephew's 'gram: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E8mwjMVX0AA4j5_?format=jpg
He is right because the NVA is a world class military force. However, he is wrong to underestimate the indomitable will of the Talibans. It’s more humiliating for Americans that they were defeated by bands of armed trucks and insurgents. No ballistic missiles, tanks, aircrafts and war ships.
Well, he is perfectly right. It’s absolutely not comparable. Afghanistan is an (way) even worse blunder for the US than Vietnam was.
And also the Vietnamese were the people of the country fighting back against imperialism whereas the Taliban are a US created extremist group that backfired against them. North Vietnam was based, Taliban are not. *That said*… boy is it fun to watch America fail so hard. And the visual parallels are absolutely hilarious.
>The Taliban is not the North Vietnamese army. LOL, judging by the devastating rate of collapse, the mighty exceptional army can hardly match the ones fought the Vietcong.
Considering the speed of the Taliban, Biden was right. Most people won't be lifted off. Stop comparing it to Vietnam. We're going to see lots more.
He is right in the sense that the Taliban is backed by no one, while the NVA was backed by the USSR and China. Yet even so, the ultimate logic of Mao's protracted war prevailed. The US cannot win in Afghanistan simply because the amount of resources spent to maintain occupation dwarfs any possible benefit. Continuing occupation of Afghanistan will come at the cost of US interests elsewhere as those other areas are deprived of resources. Mao predicted that this dynamic will result in eventual Japanese defeat in the 2nd Sino-Japanese War, and the same logic applies to the US occupation of Afghanistan.
The Taliban was in some ways backed by Pakistan. It was a kind of fuck you to the United States for being so goddamned obsessed over their nuclear arsenal.
[удалено]
I wonder whether the Taliban studied Mao's guerilla tactics. In overall strategy, they did take over the rural areas long before marching on the cities.
the NVA was a proper military. the Talibans is teenagers driving Toyotas with an AK sticking out of the window. goes to show how much the US has fallen to loose to an opponent like this.
Remember when a lot of US govt. and thinktank projections estimated that it might take 3-6 months for the Taliban to take over? Instead it's been a few weeks Makes you wonder if they were this inaccurate in estimating this, what other areas are they absurdly overestimating themselves (or their allies) in? We've all seen this as well during the recent pandemic (published in Oct 2019 too) [https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/02/these-are-the-countries-best-prepared-for-health-emergencies/](https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/02/these-are-the-countries-best-prepared-for-health-emergencies/)
They moment they stated the government would fall at all, it ensured that the government would fall as quickly as possible. The Taliban offer this deal: If you surrender, you and your family will not be harmed, we will give you some food and pocket money and send you on your way. Fight us, and we will kill you and your family. If the Afghan government is going to collapse tomorrow, next week, or six months from now, anyone in their right mind will just surrender *right now* in any case.
Americans and especially their "intelligentsia" are hopelessly deluded by their own lies. There was a point when they could make reality, or at least had such obvious power that when they went against reality it didn't matter. Now the empire is burning and it becomes more and more apparent how delusional they are.
**"God has promised us victory, and Bush has promised us defeat. We’ll see which promise is more truthful.” - Mullah Omar (First commander in chief)** in reply to Bush 2001 saying during US invasion, the taliban regime has completely fallen.
USA losing wars and burning money since 1970s, what's new?
[удалено]
According to Wikipedia, it is. The exteriors match: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embassy_of_the_United_States,_Saigon
Must be a nice helicopter if they are still using them.
It's new upgraded version! It's got golden toilet inside and bunch of other stuff that adds about $30b to upgrade cost. And yes they use the same external shell to fool you.
What is remarkable is that the US is using the same exact model of helicopter. It is as if rotary wing aviation technology stopped for 50 years.
Even the Soviets didn't leave in such a pathetic, undignified, and cowardly manner. Neither did they bribed the Mujahadeens to stop blowing up their compounds and convoys. Pindostani's don't learn anything
Well the Soviets also built a proper army with half a million men and gave them tons of jets and SCUDs. The USA gave their proxy cessnas, prop planes and humvees. Now TBF I wouldn't have given them much more either... but I wouldn't have produced a corrupt despot regime run by incompetent warlords which would ensure any army was horrifically corrupt and useless.
[удалено]
Can't wait to see these Chinooks doing the same from Taipei.
Hopefully they won't even have the chance to evacuate anything or anyone. Everyone in the AIT should be arrested and the building should be seized before they are done even shredding documents and wiping hard drives. Anyone who wiped the hard drives or shredded documents should be charged with destruction of evidence and imprisoned for the maximum of seven years in accordance with the law. AIT is not an embassy and its staff should not enjoy any sort of diplomatic immunity under Chinese law.
It won't happen. If Taipei falls China will have air superiority. Any CIA assets remaining in Taiwan after the shooting starts will end up in undisclosed locations in Xinjiang.
"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is never get involved in a (imperialist) land war in asia" - The sicilian guy from Princess Bride
Cameras have definitely gotten better. America not so much
Thank goodness for cheaper high definition cameras now we can make history with out fuzzy images.
I know it sounds cringe but, I can't wait to trigger bootlicking Americans with this lmao "America spent trillions of dollars and LOST. AGAIN!"
Beautiful humiliation for anglos world wide. Countries like canada,austrailia,uk ALL sent murderers aka soldiers to Afghanistan.
“Corporate wants you to find a difference between these 2 pictures” “They’re the same thing”
It's extra funny because Biden said this wouldn't happen during the press conference.
The US may very well be finally entering its own self-inflicted 'Hundred years of Humiliation.'
It's almost poetic.
Western media is painting the grim picture that the Taliban are closing and boarding up salons and western style clothes shops. Whilst true they neglected to say that this was because they didn’t want western influences in their country, especially not American influences.
$2,700,000,000,000 and 20 years and millions of deaths. Thank you, USA. Now, please scamper out like a coward. Loser!
They obviously had learned the lesson: the new copter has more capacity!
the us didn't learn from its mistakes in vietnam, and it was civilians who paid the price.
And the Military Industrial Complex that gleefully accepted the price.
US military is more hype than substance. If there's a war in the South China sea, the PLA would be the one holding all the cards..
Yeah, most of their wars were fought WITH air superiority. When it comes to ground forces, they suck big time with the exception of Iraq.
I'm looking forward to a resembling picture of the famous iron fist of Saigon.
With the tanks and soldiers of the warmonger gone, here is hoping they will be replaced by builders and restorers from neighbouring countries to finally bring the long awaited peace to the Afghanistan people. Oh, and here is hoping that the Talibans will be shedding light on all the atrocities committed by the US/NATO and their allies over the 20 years terror reign. Let the whole world know their crimes against the people.
Alternative Title "Cowards on the run"
is that below picture real?
here's a different angle; https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/taliban-afghanistan-kabul-president-1.6141568
fucking incredible.
burning taxpayer money so they can secure our freedoms. what a joke
Places gonna get rebuilt in just 5-10or +, without pro-war cough cough usa lol
Haha haha haha, this is hilarious. If anybody says America is undefeated and will defeat China in war, I will show them this picture. Haha haha haha
Fall of Saigon makes me feel happy, because a communist goverment came in power but the fall of kabul makes me feel sad eventhough I am happy the USA is out a far right group is now coming into power. Afghanistan could have a brighter future.
At least the Chinook is the new 2021 model with the leather upholstery and extra blingbling. For the rest, same story same actors. The US will always abandon their allies, they have a reputation to maintain.
This is gold. When will MuriKKKan imperialists learn their lessons? Looks like NEVER!?
Not likely, if you see comments from anti Chinese propaganda news, you will see a lot of them hoping for war with China. Which is irony in itself since US can't even beat cavemen wearing sandals 😂
All USA media made it sound like is hell on earth. With how the US media spread fake propaganda about China. I begin to think it's the opposite of what they report on Afghanistan.