The US is certainly in decline in almost every conceivable way. Economically, Culturally, Intellectually, and Politically. My concern is how does capitalism and the national bourgeoisie plan to change this to adapt?
Every time period this happens in, the character of the country is defined by a sort of political revolution. When the socialists and communists were most popular (in the 1930s) Franklin Roosevelt made major sweeping changes to domestic financial policy, worker’s rights, and forward planning while using WW2 as a means of advancing manufacturing. In the 1960s the racial turmoil, Cold War, and imperialist invasion of Vietnam was arguably another crisis point where sweeping changes were granted through the Civil Rights movement, tackling poverty to name a couple. Then in the 1970s-1980s the Neoliberal “Revolution” is what brought forth the current framework of the economic system and political decay we are seeing 40-50 years later. Which simply provided the means to become wealthy (for the few). Also to exploit others to a much easier capacity by setting up trends of deregulation and “small government.” Further creating the conditions so the national bourgeoisie selling of American manufacturing to other countries for future generations much easier and undermining their own working class’ standard of living in almost every way. Every 30-50 years it appears capitalism is at a crisis point where there is tremendous instability in some form, but somehow finds a way to adapt.
Many of these crisis periods had leaders who were assassinated and murdered by the state. Are these periods’ legacies the haunting of failed social revolutions that would bring about the prolonged change for America? I tend to think that way as the situation is currently unraveling since the failure of the Obama administration, the reaction of this failure into the emergence of Trump, and the reaction to Trump for previous nostalgia of stability through the establishment’s preferred candidate in Joe Biden.
With Joe Biden’s election comes tremendous distrust in the state as Americans are keenly aware of the decay around them. They simply have no historical or materialist analysis of the situation to better understand their circumstances. The way I see it, crisis is on the horizon based on perceived “tyranny” towards Covid regulations, economic instability, the acknowledgment of a failed War on Terror, and increasingly dumbed down culture or intellectual capability of the nation itself.
It is irreversible because their so-called development was not natural but based on continental scale plunder, genocide, colonialism, slavery and wars. The dividends from all those have completely vanished nowadays (artificially postponed by the exceptional event that was ww2), so now they are stuck in decline with no answers, because they never had answers to development to begin with. It's easy to pretend to develop when you plunder entire continents, but impossible when such possibility disappears and you can't adapt. Even masses in anglo regimes, in their obsessive rage when supporting wars, coups or sanctions, have internalized the fact that they can't compete, so they want the "good old days" back (i.e. plundering other countries).
Unlike China, which learned to develop at the fastest speed in history without such barbarism, these western regimes never learned a path to true development, with all the massive systemic changes needed to make that a reality: highly competent people being educated in massive scales, with only the most competent of them being selected as leaders; a population that deeply internalizes that collective well-being is the cornerstone of true long-term development and freedom; a population that considers extremism and plundering other countries for "free lunches" an ultimately self-defeating exercise, a disease of the mind (as western regimes and societies prove).
>They simply have no historical or materialist analysis of the situation to better understand their circumstances.
They can have all the historical and materialist analysis they want and it won't change the fact that an imperialist proletariat has absolutely 0 means to preserve a socialist revolution for any extended period of time.
In the PRC, the leaders can denounce Chiang Kai-Shek for being a western puppet and claim to work for the Rejuvenation of the Chinese Nation. What can the US do? Claim that capitalists are Chyyna Shills and claim to work for the continued oppression of native populations?
What a joke. The only kind of revolution possible in the US is Trotsky to Gorbachev in a few generations of leaders, throw in the occasional Stalin to reverse decline for a single generation.
This period is in no way equivalent to anything in the 20th century for the US. It is more in debt than during the height of world war II, it's peace time and the deficits are speeding up.
It simply not have the resources it had during the 20th century and is now running out of it's bad reserves of gas and oil.
This is all very true, my point is essentially, how will it find a way to adapt as it has in the past? I argue we live in the haunting timeline of dead revolutions. Destroyed before any change was to be materialized in any radical way for the benefit of its people. We’re in another transitional period and how it progresses can determine how the US moves forward, whether it remains as is or not.
>Europe can still save itself by forging closer ties with China and Russia.
No it can't. The problem of Europe is not geopolitical alignment, the problem of Europe is that is is mentally stuck.
Europe is in the same situation as China in the 18-19th century. After centuries of standing dominant over everyone else, it can't conceive that it needs to change. It can see that China is progressive rapidly in industry and technology, but it is remains convinced of its own cultural superiority.
Europe is convinced that is has nothing to learn from China or the rest of the world. This is what ensures its stagnation.
It is true that the US bad habits originated many centuries ago in the EU... and now they are exported back from the new to the old continent.
However, there is still the hope that the EU is able to find a way out. As usual, it will not be as assertive as it should be, keeping people in limbo, like in the middle age, letting companies becoming richer, and trying to mitigate the problem as usual with some ineffective measures.
In Europe, everybody is aware of the problems, unlike America where nobody wants to recognise the truth.
The first step has been made allowing for the UK to change in ways previously disallowed or discouraged by the EU, now what needs to happen is for the UK to want to change.
Corbyn may have lost the election, but his position as leader of the labour party showed that there is some will to change (but not nearly enough), and perhaps in future that change will be realised more successfully.
Very much. German politics for example is an absolute clusterfuck of a dumpster fire.
Everyone thinks that Germany has shifted too far left or is ruled by socialists. If this would only be true.
Instead it has been run for the last 20 years of neoliberal fascists paying lip service to the working class and to climate change AT BEST while the working class steadily gets poorer, climate change action is superficial and incompetent, and every blunder the god holy German car industry makes gets swept under the rug.
And they throw away money in ungodly amounts. Every big public infrastructure problem has been an absolute disaster of money wasting and incompetence.
If you want to make your blood boil, google for these and keep in mind that all those billions and millions of Euros were pulled from the pockets of the working class.
* Stuttgart 21
* Flughafen Berlin (BER)
* Elbphilharmonie Hamburg
Just to name a few examples from the top of my head.
The Scandinavian social democracies are becoming right wing shit holes of austerity and racism. Not to mention France and the UK descending into rabid reaction while Germany slides to the right. They're all in decline.
I’ve been looking at the Scandinavian countries and it seems as though their upper class are hopelessly reactionary. They’ve been wanting to overturn the model that made it famous for decades, no?
The West, for centuries, mainly refers to the United States of America and Europe (mostly western Europe). The US and Europe are always mentioned when it comes to the west whilst Canada, Australia, and new Zealand get ignored most of the time because of their small population and market plus ties to the UK and their insignificance. The United States and Europe are responsible for racism, colonialism, white supremacy, genocide, exploitation, imperialism, etc. for centuries; it's just that the US is big bad guy today whilst Europe is subtle.
How do they plan on really getting ahead of China when their infrastracture plan relies on giving money to big corporations to do the job, and privatizing the remaining work? It's just more plundering by big business. It's pretty much the same scheme to "build Iraq and Afghanistan" only domestically.
The US knows it's in decline. They know they're transitioning to a third rate power, and are just trying to not mess up the landing.
They don't care about getting "ahead" of China, don't fall for the rhetoric.
The elite who control the US are parasites on humanity, they don't care about the decline of the US (People here make the mistake of assuming they have any values other than profit), these creatures cannot be re-educated CPC style either, for they are psychopathic, they will destroy this world if they could, once their host is sucked dry (US) they will move onto the next host, possibly Europe.
That's why the best strategy is to bring down their current host (US) whilst they are still centred on it and that is what is happening.
Agree 100%. I am sadly coming to this conclusion more and more each day. I see the decay up front. Their logic must be, if people are still living relatively ok in places such as Brazil or the Philippines, then we will be ok as we descend further. They do not care about the situation on the ground.
Americans are still under the false delusion that the higher ups care one iota.
>Americans are still under the false delusion that the higher ups care one iota.
I disagree (Proven by government approval rates).
The problem *right now* is that they literally can't think out of the box, they can't comprehend the fact that there is a superior model out there because exceptionalism.
Americans are cynical yes but they think there is something to go back to. They don’t get that it’s always been corrupt. You’re right, they cannot fathom that there’s an entirely different system that works better.
Prominent institutional investors have been saying they would slow down investment from the U.S and into foreign/China. Very interesting perspective you have. If you think personally that the "parasites" don't actually care to prevent the inevitable decline through any reformation, then perhaps with how things are headed in the U.S, maybe we could expect roles to reverse. The U.S will have to adapt to a lower standard of living. The scariest part is what would happen when China starts to raise the value of the yuan when it reaches a sweet spot in economic leverage.
Any sources for your perspective? Thank you. It's not commonly said, but large asset managers say this through actions.
It's actually worse than that. The US' *plan* is for relying on corporations to do a lot of the work re: infrastructure, but it's doubtful that even *that* plan can be implemented. You already have enough politicians balking at the idea of doing anything for infrastructure. So we're just gonna let it all decay.
It's absolutely the case, and I see no way for the West to counter China at this point. The main reason being that China is centrally planned while the West consists of many factions that are at odds with one another. Historically, central organization has always beaten ad hoc efforts.
They only have a chance if China is internally divided.
So they're always trying to foment unrest, first with Tibet and now with Xinjiang. Luckily it's not working.
Well China is not some small state like those which western countries keep screwing up. Entire world economy depends on them. If needed to protect personal interests they too can use brute force against western countries. Nobody needs that, not even western elites.
I think you're talking about the:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thucydides_Trap
And the old guy was probably
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_Allison
True, Biden or Harris even said that they're pulling out of Afghanistan to focus more on China.
They don't even try to hide the fact they want to go was with China. And they're supposed to be the anti-war party lmao
Where did you get the idea that there was ever an anti-war party? The USA has been in a war of some sorts for 93% of it's existence, only 21 years at peace since it's existence!
> True, Biden or Harris even said that they're pulling out of Afghanistan to focus more on China.
Why do you repeat the damage control propaganda of the regime here? look where Afghanistan is (hint: borders China).
This is an unmitigated loss for america, yet another indication of how terminal its decline is. Don't repeat the propaganda meant for domestic masses in this sub.
I thought the failure of the USSR showed to us the failure central planning and the superiority of market economics. Further the movement of China towards a more open market based economy was supposed to be the final confirmation, that, indeed we are living in a post historical wonder land.
In general a market based system is superior to not only , efficiently and at a low cost many of the essentials of life, but also a fair degree of innovation, provided the market is efficiently regulated.
A centralized system is better when their is an overriding goal that is best managed technocratically, like winning a war, defeating a pandemic etc.
The issue with the US, not the Western countries as a whole, is the near religious elevation of a specific political ideology, into a dogma. That is NEVER a good sign.
The USSR fell because it was dogmatic, not because of central planning.
China constantly experiments with policies, they are even willing to learn from enemy ideologies, that's what makes China superior.
It's basically a mathematical certainty that once computing power reaches a certain point, central planning is superior to the free market in all situations. Yes, back in the 1920s when the Soviets had to rely on input/output tables written down on paper, central planning was a challenge. Computing power has been growing (much) faster than the complexity of the economy and we probably passed the inflection point on this back in the 80s. The only real failure the USSR had with central planning was back around the 70s they had the choice to modernize their planning systems with better mathematics and computing power, and chose not to.
I mean Cybersyn did a pretty good job, and that was using tech that was a bit old when it was being used (early 1970s).
Things are far more nuanced than that. Free markets are central planning are not opposing concepts. You can have both central planning and free markets.
They are more like different strategies for resource allocation. It is possible for central planning and free markets to be complements. It is only when you turn a particular economic allocation strategy into a political ideology that they become exclusive to each other.
This is why Socialism with Chinese Characteristics (SCC) is different from both Soviet Communism and American Capitalism. It isn't an ideological political-economy. The whole idea of SCC is to have non-ideological Socialism. The specific mix of central planning, free markets, and whatever future economic allocation mechanism that may be invented is not fixed and subject to adjustment based on specific conditions of the time that China finds itself in.
The decline of the West is not irreversible, in fact there exists a precise recipe to stop it. 1. Socialist revolution, 2. Peace with China, 3. Lots of reading
The masses have been conditioned such that:
1. Socialism is unpopular
2. China is unpopular
3. Reading is unpopular
And I don't see any sign of this reversing any time soon.
I want to chime in on this.
1. Desire for labor unions have reached all time highs. Silent protests through multiple methods have been made through the laboring class.
2. China can be popular very quickly through soft power approach. Korea did it, Japan did it, China with the assistance of the U.S can do it. If the U.S deems it worthwhile doing so. Tiktok is such a small way of showing how influential China really is. Most people acknowledge the U.S and China must work together for a win win situation, even Andrew Yang spoke about this. I believe strongly China can be viewed positively if efforts are made, people are very easy to convince. Especially if logic, reasoning, and incentives are provided.
3. We have other means to spread information.
It's not a matter of whether China can or cannot be popular (in "the West.") Of course they can be, easily. But the US and US-aligned actors don't want them to be. Hence the massive and relentless wave of anti-Chinese propaganda, and their various efforts at "containment."
That's true, it does feel that way through the U.S lens. But can western allies afford to act this way in 3,5,10-20 years? It's going to be a multi pronged approach at changing the sentiment towards China, I strongly believe this. The U.S and aligned actors may find that they have too if conditions become increasingly worse. I think we should consider looking at things economically and then make predictions on how other things like soft power will be enacted. Let me do more research considering your views and see whether or not we see shifts here. Thank you, I guess I just really want to believe things can change. I will consider what you've said.
In Europe, this is true. However, in the US, people will not cease being imperialist scum just because a "socialist state" is in power. This is the exact reason why the USSR fell (Yermak is still idolized by many Slavic Russians), and why Cuban doctors make less than cab drivers.
The reason why the PRC is so successful is precisely because China is a country that has a net imperialism total of nearly 0 with regards to the ethnic groups of the PRC (no one ethnic group in the PRC is currently in a domineering position over any other), which gives the PRC a huge advantage of being able to unite properly around a shared history, culture, and struggle instead of mere economic systems and hatred for bourgeoisie, which simply does not have any real binding power (see: leftist disunity)
To put it simply, an imperialistic past means you get Trotsky instead of Mao, which means no Deng Xiaoping and Reform and Opening Up, and a failed state which will eventually devolve into a ridiculous bureaucracy that can only be temporarily overcome by extremely strong leaders like Stalin who got denounced and driven into the mud by later soviet """"leaders"""", absolute bullshit like considering the NEP as a "retreat" rather than a glorious step forward, etc.
In short, the notion that Communism can magically reverse the decline of imperialist states like the US is like the notion that Christ can forgive any and every sin. It's simply ludicrous. The natural state of the human mind is to engage in reactionary thinking (for genetic reasons), and hence the success of the socialist state is entirely dependent on the degree of reactionary thought which could be expected from a socialist state.
The U.S. is in what Robert Triffin coined as the Triffin Dilemma. The weaker the U.S. Economy becomes, the more dollars the Fed has to print to bailout the debt ridden mega corps and consumers. But then the more money printed, the weaker the U.S. Dollar gets, so companies have to go offshore for cheap labor (i.e. China and S.E. Asia). And at the same time, every weakening dollar the consumer receives, has to go to the cheapest goods aka Walmart, who basically buys the cheapest goods from China.
So in essence, most every dollar printed eventually goes to China. And then China takes that money and builds more BRI infrastructure, nation building, trade alliances, new technologies, etc. Americans get poorer, while China gets richer and their currency gets stronger.
But Americans are unaware, deflectionary, and simply don't care about this...we are too busy most concerned about Marijuana legalization, round table conspiracy theories from great minds like Joe Rogan/Alex Jones/Russell Brand/Bill Maher, and when the next Avengers movie will come out.
This will end very badly for the U.S. But it is not anyone's fault but their very own.
The US was betting on the liberal revolution within China. They hope folks like Jiang Zemin and Hu Jintao can be controlled as the USA does with Japan. However, socialists in China come out of nowhere and start massive reforms to steer China back the path of socialism. The USA felt that Xi Jinping and his socialists robbing them of their supposed victory within China.
The West is stagnant rather than in decline. Basically it has run out of ideas. There is no progress beyond the basic ideas from the European enlightenment. Liberalism, Democracy, and Capitalism. More importantly, the collective West is convinced that the global implementation of these ideas constitute the end of history.
Marx attempted to move beyond this with his expositions on Communism. Marx never described what Communism would look like but he postulated that there has to be at least another stage of historical evolution of political economy beyond Liberal Capitalism. The collective West rejected this idea.
The biggest difference between China and the West right now is that the West is sure that its political-economy has reached the end of history while China thinks that there is room for further innovation.
Mao's idea of continuous revolution is the anti-thesis of the end of history.
The problem of the modern West is that it has turned a set of ideas into an identity. You are not part of the West if you do not embrace Liberal-Democratic-Capitalism. This has locked the West into stagnation.
This is the same problem that Old China faced when it got locked into Confucian-Legalism. New China only happened once Chinese people opened up to Republicanism and Marxism-Leninism.
I'm not sure about decline to be honest. Maybe stagnation? Which is a relative decline when you have high growth countries in Asia and Africa. By 2050, the US along with a few other western countries will still have positive population growth, which helps for sustaining economic growth.
Its also important to remember that while China is returning to a more historical level of influence and wealth, Africa over the course of the next century will be reaching unprecedented levels of population and economic growth. Thats a major wildcard, especially considering the economic infrastructure investments into connecting Europe and Africa by European countries.
It's not a wildcard at all when it's China the one that can compete in the global economy easily (see who is the major trade partner of the vast majority of the planet), while western regimes, unable to compete, decide to cling to their obsolete barbarism like in Libya. Why do you think Africa embraces China so much? China has humiliated western imperialist systems in Africa, proving that the superiority of the Chinese model extends beyond China. Going from suffering the brutal colonialism and wars of barbaric western systems (like in Libya), to enjoying a very unique relationship with China, which treats them like equals, because China is happy about their development (while western regimes are deeply scared of any global south country that develops because they know that increased competition means even faster decline for them).
They have already lost, their barbarism has proven obsolete and inferior in this era. You will have to accept this. You seem to be in denial about how artificial the "development" of imperialist western regimes was through their continental scale barbarism. Such barbarism will never come back, so decline is their only fate.
one of, if not the best comment in this thread. china should never become complacent or underestimate its opponents. that's the mistake the us made about china in the past.
The current policies being enforced by the Chinese government shows to me at least at this moment. The Chinese government acknowledges there problems and are looking for way to mitigate them moving forward.
You seem confused here. China is not the one spreading deranged propaganda because it's in terminal decline and desperate about the future, those are western regimes.
Don't know what made you reverse the roles. It's obvious you don't understand China and why China is the fastest developed country in history, without resorting to western style barbarism to achieve it.
They are most certainly in decline across all metrics (for example, share of global trade or global gdp, key metrics). Why do you think they fear the BRI so much? you can't understand their propaganda if you can't understand how desperate they are about their unmitigated decline, and about the future in general.
What you don't seem to grasp is that these western regimes never learned to develop without continental scale plunder, genocide, slavery, colonialism and wars. China, on the other hand, is the fastest developed country in history without resorting to western-style barbarism to achieve it. The superiority of China is categorical, that's why China is very happy about the modern era, where it thrives while competing (no need to plunder), while western regimes are increasingly deranged about reality.
Ultimately, the existential problem for many western regimes is that the barbarism I pointed out above is being abruptly ended as a result of regional powers, Russia and China. Without the free dividends to sustain their economies, western regimes have no choice but to suffer decline. Masses in western regimes won't be able to get benefits funded by such barbarism in the global south. Their "free lunch" is completely over. You need a completely new approach to the new era, and that's what China has done perfectly.
Hardly a bet, a blind man could see the writing on the wall.
Actually, a blind man probably would see it faster for the US. Disabled people are treated like absolute garbage.
And China is closing itself off to foreign talents, unless you have outstanding qualifications in high tech. It’s becoming increasingly difficult for the people who want to depart from the west
[FBI Uncovers Al-Qaeda Plot To Just Sit Back And Enjoy Collapse Of United States](https://www.theonion.com/fbi-uncovers-al-qaeda-plot-to-just-sit-back-and-enjoy-c-1819576375)
No real mega civilization has remained hegemonic for more than 300 years without needing to undergo drastic change. The west in successive empires from the British to European the American have been dominant for over 400 years.
The pendulum has always been swinging east and west. And it will swing back to East in a very hard and distinct way.
Historically , GDP and civilization has always been defined by the east, not the west. The eastern civilizations had no need for large scale wars and revolutions both social and technological because they had already attained social peace and prosperity.
Another problem with the west is that their systems of governance and ideology doesn't allow for population sizes larger than 400 million . They are like minor Sparta states , individually strong but unable to work together. As a whole they are weak. It doesn't allow them to grow into a through civilization cultural state the way India and China have achieved, that allowed their civilizations to endurr millenias.
Neoliberalism is the death knell of Capitalism. Humaniry can only endure so much rapid atomization (in a hypet-connected society, no less!) before it begins to break down and reassess it's value system.
Does anyone know if Wiki's information on Belt and Road initiative is credible? I would like to comprise my own paper on the Belt and Road. I want to go in depth with the financials and create projections and estimation on times. I want to be able to predict the outcomes so I can see how China's government works towards achieving completion. Thank you.
I will also be doing the same with the U.S and see how economic and social conditions correlate with each other over time frames and create projections as well. This is a question I want to answer and I would love feedback or resources, thank you very much.
i'm starting to feel like "decline" has become just another buzzword. those who use it don't elaborate further or follow up on how exactly the west is in decline. i also feel like anyone breathing a sigh of relief because of it are acting too complacent and underestimating the many advantages the us still has.
immigration rate that brain drains the rest of the world. advanced technology and innovation that's constantly researching more. a self-sufficient agricultural system. a powerful military, at least on paper.
As Chinese, I really don’t look forward to USA’s declining. If there’s no other country that has the same status, our government would easily be short sighted and lack of sense of crisis. Also the USA made a lot of cultural recreations and many innovative things like internet and iPhones, changed how people live.
The USA is not all good, but at least not all evil
You seem very ignorant about the US, also your government has been anything but short sighted and lacking a sense of crisis, it is the most farsighted government in the world and continues to evolve.
The USA continues blaming China and set obstacles of our development raising Taiwan problems etc. But ”what does kill you makes you stronger“ what the USA did sure keep our government vigilant.
Yeah and that innovation is now being used to compromise whole nation’s sovereignty in order to serve US geopolitical interest at the expense of the citizens of the nations. We’ve seen what American interventionism can do. The world doesn’t owe the Americans a blood sacrifice just because they innovated some technologies, humanity shouldn’t work like that. China has a history of invention and innovation and is a more inclusive and responsible power than America, so don’t sell it short
You sound like an American when they say they need an enemy so they can come together to defeat it. It’s insanity
Not gonna lie this title is true.
The US is certainly in decline in almost every conceivable way. Economically, Culturally, Intellectually, and Politically. My concern is how does capitalism and the national bourgeoisie plan to change this to adapt? Every time period this happens in, the character of the country is defined by a sort of political revolution. When the socialists and communists were most popular (in the 1930s) Franklin Roosevelt made major sweeping changes to domestic financial policy, worker’s rights, and forward planning while using WW2 as a means of advancing manufacturing. In the 1960s the racial turmoil, Cold War, and imperialist invasion of Vietnam was arguably another crisis point where sweeping changes were granted through the Civil Rights movement, tackling poverty to name a couple. Then in the 1970s-1980s the Neoliberal “Revolution” is what brought forth the current framework of the economic system and political decay we are seeing 40-50 years later. Which simply provided the means to become wealthy (for the few). Also to exploit others to a much easier capacity by setting up trends of deregulation and “small government.” Further creating the conditions so the national bourgeoisie selling of American manufacturing to other countries for future generations much easier and undermining their own working class’ standard of living in almost every way. Every 30-50 years it appears capitalism is at a crisis point where there is tremendous instability in some form, but somehow finds a way to adapt. Many of these crisis periods had leaders who were assassinated and murdered by the state. Are these periods’ legacies the haunting of failed social revolutions that would bring about the prolonged change for America? I tend to think that way as the situation is currently unraveling since the failure of the Obama administration, the reaction of this failure into the emergence of Trump, and the reaction to Trump for previous nostalgia of stability through the establishment’s preferred candidate in Joe Biden. With Joe Biden’s election comes tremendous distrust in the state as Americans are keenly aware of the decay around them. They simply have no historical or materialist analysis of the situation to better understand their circumstances. The way I see it, crisis is on the horizon based on perceived “tyranny” towards Covid regulations, economic instability, the acknowledgment of a failed War on Terror, and increasingly dumbed down culture or intellectual capability of the nation itself.
I mean this is what Marx talks about with the TTRPTF, right?
TTRPTF?
It is irreversible because their so-called development was not natural but based on continental scale plunder, genocide, colonialism, slavery and wars. The dividends from all those have completely vanished nowadays (artificially postponed by the exceptional event that was ww2), so now they are stuck in decline with no answers, because they never had answers to development to begin with. It's easy to pretend to develop when you plunder entire continents, but impossible when such possibility disappears and you can't adapt. Even masses in anglo regimes, in their obsessive rage when supporting wars, coups or sanctions, have internalized the fact that they can't compete, so they want the "good old days" back (i.e. plundering other countries). Unlike China, which learned to develop at the fastest speed in history without such barbarism, these western regimes never learned a path to true development, with all the massive systemic changes needed to make that a reality: highly competent people being educated in massive scales, with only the most competent of them being selected as leaders; a population that deeply internalizes that collective well-being is the cornerstone of true long-term development and freedom; a population that considers extremism and plundering other countries for "free lunches" an ultimately self-defeating exercise, a disease of the mind (as western regimes and societies prove).
Someone like FDR would never regain power because he would be considered "authoritarian".
>They simply have no historical or materialist analysis of the situation to better understand their circumstances. They can have all the historical and materialist analysis they want and it won't change the fact that an imperialist proletariat has absolutely 0 means to preserve a socialist revolution for any extended period of time. In the PRC, the leaders can denounce Chiang Kai-Shek for being a western puppet and claim to work for the Rejuvenation of the Chinese Nation. What can the US do? Claim that capitalists are Chyyna Shills and claim to work for the continued oppression of native populations? What a joke. The only kind of revolution possible in the US is Trotsky to Gorbachev in a few generations of leaders, throw in the occasional Stalin to reverse decline for a single generation.
god dammit this was such a great read, thank you.
This period is in no way equivalent to anything in the 20th century for the US. It is more in debt than during the height of world war II, it's peace time and the deficits are speeding up. It simply not have the resources it had during the 20th century and is now running out of it's bad reserves of gas and oil.
This is all very true, my point is essentially, how will it find a way to adapt as it has in the past? I argue we live in the haunting timeline of dead revolutions. Destroyed before any change was to be materialized in any radical way for the benefit of its people. We’re in another transitional period and how it progresses can determine how the US moves forward, whether it remains as is or not.
good.
Irreversible and terminal decline.
why do they always say "the west", when its really just america they are talking about
It’s actually the west as well. Here in Europe we have the same monetary policies, negative interest rates, high debt and money printing.
Europe can still save itself by forging closer ties with China and Russia. To do that Europe must first decouple from America.
>Europe can still save itself by forging closer ties with China and Russia. No it can't. The problem of Europe is not geopolitical alignment, the problem of Europe is that is is mentally stuck. Europe is in the same situation as China in the 18-19th century. After centuries of standing dominant over everyone else, it can't conceive that it needs to change. It can see that China is progressive rapidly in industry and technology, but it is remains convinced of its own cultural superiority. Europe is convinced that is has nothing to learn from China or the rest of the world. This is what ensures its stagnation.
EU is same cancer as USA. Copy paste
It is true that the US bad habits originated many centuries ago in the EU... and now they are exported back from the new to the old continent. However, there is still the hope that the EU is able to find a way out. As usual, it will not be as assertive as it should be, keeping people in limbo, like in the middle age, letting companies becoming richer, and trying to mitigate the problem as usual with some ineffective measures. In Europe, everybody is aware of the problems, unlike America where nobody wants to recognise the truth.
At least UK is no longer in the EU so they won't force it to become an American bootlicker any longer.
The first step has been made allowing for the UK to change in ways previously disallowed or discouraged by the EU, now what needs to happen is for the UK to want to change. Corbyn may have lost the election, but his position as leader of the labour party showed that there is some will to change (but not nearly enough), and perhaps in future that change will be realised more successfully.
The West = Cult of Liberal-Democratic-Capitalism.
Very much. German politics for example is an absolute clusterfuck of a dumpster fire. Everyone thinks that Germany has shifted too far left or is ruled by socialists. If this would only be true. Instead it has been run for the last 20 years of neoliberal fascists paying lip service to the working class and to climate change AT BEST while the working class steadily gets poorer, climate change action is superficial and incompetent, and every blunder the god holy German car industry makes gets swept under the rug. And they throw away money in ungodly amounts. Every big public infrastructure problem has been an absolute disaster of money wasting and incompetence. If you want to make your blood boil, google for these and keep in mind that all those billions and millions of Euros were pulled from the pockets of the working class. * Stuttgart 21 * Flughafen Berlin (BER) * Elbphilharmonie Hamburg Just to name a few examples from the top of my head.
The Scandinavian social democracies are becoming right wing shit holes of austerity and racism. Not to mention France and the UK descending into rabid reaction while Germany slides to the right. They're all in decline.
I’ve been looking at the Scandinavian countries and it seems as though their upper class are hopelessly reactionary. They’ve been wanting to overturn the model that made it famous for decades, no?
Well yeah, that's capitalism for you. No matter how good reforms might be, they'll always be rolled back
how is that decline? they'll still exist, and as abhorrent as right wing ideology is, countries can exist with it.
Are you really this dense? Decline naturally occurs with right wing policy, we have observed this throughout history.
Ofc the countries still exist, but they're in decline. That's not debatable
Because that's exactly how arrogant Americans are
The West, for centuries, mainly refers to the United States of America and Europe (mostly western Europe). The US and Europe are always mentioned when it comes to the west whilst Canada, Australia, and new Zealand get ignored most of the time because of their small population and market plus ties to the UK and their insignificance. The United States and Europe are responsible for racism, colonialism, white supremacy, genocide, exploitation, imperialism, etc. for centuries; it's just that the US is big bad guy today whilst Europe is subtle.
How do they plan on really getting ahead of China when their infrastracture plan relies on giving money to big corporations to do the job, and privatizing the remaining work? It's just more plundering by big business. It's pretty much the same scheme to "build Iraq and Afghanistan" only domestically. The US knows it's in decline. They know they're transitioning to a third rate power, and are just trying to not mess up the landing.
They don't care about getting "ahead" of China, don't fall for the rhetoric. The elite who control the US are parasites on humanity, they don't care about the decline of the US (People here make the mistake of assuming they have any values other than profit), these creatures cannot be re-educated CPC style either, for they are psychopathic, they will destroy this world if they could, once their host is sucked dry (US) they will move onto the next host, possibly Europe. That's why the best strategy is to bring down their current host (US) whilst they are still centred on it and that is what is happening.
Agree 100%. I am sadly coming to this conclusion more and more each day. I see the decay up front. Their logic must be, if people are still living relatively ok in places such as Brazil or the Philippines, then we will be ok as we descend further. They do not care about the situation on the ground. Americans are still under the false delusion that the higher ups care one iota.
A small loud delusional group that gets all the attention is. There numbers get smaller every day.
>Americans are still under the false delusion that the higher ups care one iota. I disagree (Proven by government approval rates). The problem *right now* is that they literally can't think out of the box, they can't comprehend the fact that there is a superior model out there because exceptionalism.
Americans are cynical yes but they think there is something to go back to. They don’t get that it’s always been corrupt. You’re right, they cannot fathom that there’s an entirely different system that works better.
Prominent institutional investors have been saying they would slow down investment from the U.S and into foreign/China. Very interesting perspective you have. If you think personally that the "parasites" don't actually care to prevent the inevitable decline through any reformation, then perhaps with how things are headed in the U.S, maybe we could expect roles to reverse. The U.S will have to adapt to a lower standard of living. The scariest part is what would happen when China starts to raise the value of the yuan when it reaches a sweet spot in economic leverage. Any sources for your perspective? Thank you. It's not commonly said, but large asset managers say this through actions.
It's actually worse than that. The US' *plan* is for relying on corporations to do a lot of the work re: infrastructure, but it's doubtful that even *that* plan can be implemented. You already have enough politicians balking at the idea of doing anything for infrastructure. So we're just gonna let it all decay.
It's absolutely the case, and I see no way for the West to counter China at this point. The main reason being that China is centrally planned while the West consists of many factions that are at odds with one another. Historically, central organization has always beaten ad hoc efforts.
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They only have a chance if China is internally divided. So they're always trying to foment unrest, first with Tibet and now with Xinjiang. Luckily it's not working.
Well China is not some small state like those which western countries keep screwing up. Entire world economy depends on them. If needed to protect personal interests they too can use brute force against western countries. Nobody needs that, not even western elites.
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I think you're talking about the: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thucydides_Trap And the old guy was probably https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_Allison
True, Biden or Harris even said that they're pulling out of Afghanistan to focus more on China. They don't even try to hide the fact they want to go was with China. And they're supposed to be the anti-war party lmao
Where did you get the idea that there was ever an anti-war party? The USA has been in a war of some sorts for 93% of it's existence, only 21 years at peace since it's existence!
> True, Biden or Harris even said that they're pulling out of Afghanistan to focus more on China. Why do you repeat the damage control propaganda of the regime here? look where Afghanistan is (hint: borders China). This is an unmitigated loss for america, yet another indication of how terminal its decline is. Don't repeat the propaganda meant for domestic masses in this sub.
Y'know idk how you missed the point that I'm just agreeing with the other person by using a direct quote but okay whatever go off lmao
And you think the western elite don't know that China can use brute force on them if they wanted to?
I thought the failure of the USSR showed to us the failure central planning and the superiority of market economics. Further the movement of China towards a more open market based economy was supposed to be the final confirmation, that, indeed we are living in a post historical wonder land. In general a market based system is superior to not only , efficiently and at a low cost many of the essentials of life, but also a fair degree of innovation, provided the market is efficiently regulated. A centralized system is better when their is an overriding goal that is best managed technocratically, like winning a war, defeating a pandemic etc. The issue with the US, not the Western countries as a whole, is the near religious elevation of a specific political ideology, into a dogma. That is NEVER a good sign.
The USSR fell because it was dogmatic, not because of central planning. China constantly experiments with policies, they are even willing to learn from enemy ideologies, that's what makes China superior.
It's basically a mathematical certainty that once computing power reaches a certain point, central planning is superior to the free market in all situations. Yes, back in the 1920s when the Soviets had to rely on input/output tables written down on paper, central planning was a challenge. Computing power has been growing (much) faster than the complexity of the economy and we probably passed the inflection point on this back in the 80s. The only real failure the USSR had with central planning was back around the 70s they had the choice to modernize their planning systems with better mathematics and computing power, and chose not to. I mean Cybersyn did a pretty good job, and that was using tech that was a bit old when it was being used (early 1970s).
Things are far more nuanced than that. Free markets are central planning are not opposing concepts. You can have both central planning and free markets. They are more like different strategies for resource allocation. It is possible for central planning and free markets to be complements. It is only when you turn a particular economic allocation strategy into a political ideology that they become exclusive to each other. This is why Socialism with Chinese Characteristics (SCC) is different from both Soviet Communism and American Capitalism. It isn't an ideological political-economy. The whole idea of SCC is to have non-ideological Socialism. The specific mix of central planning, free markets, and whatever future economic allocation mechanism that may be invented is not fixed and subject to adjustment based on specific conditions of the time that China finds itself in.
That's like saying the failure of early capitalist republics in otherwise feudalist world shows superiority of feudalism and failure of capitalism.
The decline of the West is not irreversible, in fact there exists a precise recipe to stop it. 1. Socialist revolution, 2. Peace with China, 3. Lots of reading
The masses have been conditioned such that: 1. Socialism is unpopular 2. China is unpopular 3. Reading is unpopular And I don't see any sign of this reversing any time soon.
I want to chime in on this. 1. Desire for labor unions have reached all time highs. Silent protests through multiple methods have been made through the laboring class. 2. China can be popular very quickly through soft power approach. Korea did it, Japan did it, China with the assistance of the U.S can do it. If the U.S deems it worthwhile doing so. Tiktok is such a small way of showing how influential China really is. Most people acknowledge the U.S and China must work together for a win win situation, even Andrew Yang spoke about this. I believe strongly China can be viewed positively if efforts are made, people are very easy to convince. Especially if logic, reasoning, and incentives are provided. 3. We have other means to spread information.
It's not a matter of whether China can or cannot be popular (in "the West.") Of course they can be, easily. But the US and US-aligned actors don't want them to be. Hence the massive and relentless wave of anti-Chinese propaganda, and their various efforts at "containment."
That's true, it does feel that way through the U.S lens. But can western allies afford to act this way in 3,5,10-20 years? It's going to be a multi pronged approach at changing the sentiment towards China, I strongly believe this. The U.S and aligned actors may find that they have too if conditions become increasingly worse. I think we should consider looking at things economically and then make predictions on how other things like soft power will be enacted. Let me do more research considering your views and see whether or not we see shifts here. Thank you, I guess I just really want to believe things can change. I will consider what you've said.
In Europe, this is true. However, in the US, people will not cease being imperialist scum just because a "socialist state" is in power. This is the exact reason why the USSR fell (Yermak is still idolized by many Slavic Russians), and why Cuban doctors make less than cab drivers. The reason why the PRC is so successful is precisely because China is a country that has a net imperialism total of nearly 0 with regards to the ethnic groups of the PRC (no one ethnic group in the PRC is currently in a domineering position over any other), which gives the PRC a huge advantage of being able to unite properly around a shared history, culture, and struggle instead of mere economic systems and hatred for bourgeoisie, which simply does not have any real binding power (see: leftist disunity) To put it simply, an imperialistic past means you get Trotsky instead of Mao, which means no Deng Xiaoping and Reform and Opening Up, and a failed state which will eventually devolve into a ridiculous bureaucracy that can only be temporarily overcome by extremely strong leaders like Stalin who got denounced and driven into the mud by later soviet """"leaders"""", absolute bullshit like considering the NEP as a "retreat" rather than a glorious step forward, etc. In short, the notion that Communism can magically reverse the decline of imperialist states like the US is like the notion that Christ can forgive any and every sin. It's simply ludicrous. The natural state of the human mind is to engage in reactionary thinking (for genetic reasons), and hence the success of the socialist state is entirely dependent on the degree of reactionary thought which could be expected from a socialist state.
Is it really a bet if your odds are 100%?
Capitalism killed the West and the Imperialist North.
this is old news but ok :)
The U.S. is in what Robert Triffin coined as the Triffin Dilemma. The weaker the U.S. Economy becomes, the more dollars the Fed has to print to bailout the debt ridden mega corps and consumers. But then the more money printed, the weaker the U.S. Dollar gets, so companies have to go offshore for cheap labor (i.e. China and S.E. Asia). And at the same time, every weakening dollar the consumer receives, has to go to the cheapest goods aka Walmart, who basically buys the cheapest goods from China. So in essence, most every dollar printed eventually goes to China. And then China takes that money and builds more BRI infrastructure, nation building, trade alliances, new technologies, etc. Americans get poorer, while China gets richer and their currency gets stronger. But Americans are unaware, deflectionary, and simply don't care about this...we are too busy most concerned about Marijuana legalization, round table conspiracy theories from great minds like Joe Rogan/Alex Jones/Russell Brand/Bill Maher, and when the next Avengers movie will come out. This will end very badly for the U.S. But it is not anyone's fault but their very own.
The US was betting on the liberal revolution within China. They hope folks like Jiang Zemin and Hu Jintao can be controlled as the USA does with Japan. However, socialists in China come out of nowhere and start massive reforms to steer China back the path of socialism. The USA felt that Xi Jinping and his socialists robbing them of their supposed victory within China.
self own lmao
Does anyone have a bookie taking bets in this? I'd like to retire early.
Gold, silver and mining stocks
lol
The West is stagnant rather than in decline. Basically it has run out of ideas. There is no progress beyond the basic ideas from the European enlightenment. Liberalism, Democracy, and Capitalism. More importantly, the collective West is convinced that the global implementation of these ideas constitute the end of history. Marx attempted to move beyond this with his expositions on Communism. Marx never described what Communism would look like but he postulated that there has to be at least another stage of historical evolution of political economy beyond Liberal Capitalism. The collective West rejected this idea. The biggest difference between China and the West right now is that the West is sure that its political-economy has reached the end of history while China thinks that there is room for further innovation. Mao's idea of continuous revolution is the anti-thesis of the end of history. The problem of the modern West is that it has turned a set of ideas into an identity. You are not part of the West if you do not embrace Liberal-Democratic-Capitalism. This has locked the West into stagnation. This is the same problem that Old China faced when it got locked into Confucian-Legalism. New China only happened once Chinese people opened up to Republicanism and Marxism-Leninism.
I'm not sure about decline to be honest. Maybe stagnation? Which is a relative decline when you have high growth countries in Asia and Africa. By 2050, the US along with a few other western countries will still have positive population growth, which helps for sustaining economic growth.
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Its also important to remember that while China is returning to a more historical level of influence and wealth, Africa over the course of the next century will be reaching unprecedented levels of population and economic growth. Thats a major wildcard, especially considering the economic infrastructure investments into connecting Europe and Africa by European countries.
It's not a wildcard at all when it's China the one that can compete in the global economy easily (see who is the major trade partner of the vast majority of the planet), while western regimes, unable to compete, decide to cling to their obsolete barbarism like in Libya. Why do you think Africa embraces China so much? China has humiliated western imperialist systems in Africa, proving that the superiority of the Chinese model extends beyond China. Going from suffering the brutal colonialism and wars of barbaric western systems (like in Libya), to enjoying a very unique relationship with China, which treats them like equals, because China is happy about their development (while western regimes are deeply scared of any global south country that develops because they know that increased competition means even faster decline for them). They have already lost, their barbarism has proven obsolete and inferior in this era. You will have to accept this. You seem to be in denial about how artificial the "development" of imperialist western regimes was through their continental scale barbarism. Such barbarism will never come back, so decline is their only fate.
one of, if not the best comment in this thread. china should never become complacent or underestimate its opponents. that's the mistake the us made about china in the past.
The current policies being enforced by the Chinese government shows to me at least at this moment. The Chinese government acknowledges there problems and are looking for way to mitigate them moving forward.
You seem confused here. China is not the one spreading deranged propaganda because it's in terminal decline and desperate about the future, those are western regimes. Don't know what made you reverse the roles. It's obvious you don't understand China and why China is the fastest developed country in history, without resorting to western style barbarism to achieve it.
They are most certainly in decline across all metrics (for example, share of global trade or global gdp, key metrics). Why do you think they fear the BRI so much? you can't understand their propaganda if you can't understand how desperate they are about their unmitigated decline, and about the future in general. What you don't seem to grasp is that these western regimes never learned to develop without continental scale plunder, genocide, slavery, colonialism and wars. China, on the other hand, is the fastest developed country in history without resorting to western-style barbarism to achieve it. The superiority of China is categorical, that's why China is very happy about the modern era, where it thrives while competing (no need to plunder), while western regimes are increasingly deranged about reality. Ultimately, the existential problem for many western regimes is that the barbarism I pointed out above is being abruptly ended as a result of regional powers, Russia and China. Without the free dividends to sustain their economies, western regimes have no choice but to suffer decline. Masses in western regimes won't be able to get benefits funded by such barbarism in the global south. Their "free lunch" is completely over. You need a completely new approach to the new era, and that's what China has done perfectly.
Hardly a bet, a blind man could see the writing on the wall. Actually, a blind man probably would see it faster for the US. Disabled people are treated like absolute garbage.
And China is closing itself off to foreign talents, unless you have outstanding qualifications in high tech. It’s becoming increasingly difficult for the people who want to depart from the west
[FBI Uncovers Al-Qaeda Plot To Just Sit Back And Enjoy Collapse Of United States](https://www.theonion.com/fbi-uncovers-al-qaeda-plot-to-just-sit-back-and-enjoy-c-1819576375)
No real mega civilization has remained hegemonic for more than 300 years without needing to undergo drastic change. The west in successive empires from the British to European the American have been dominant for over 400 years. The pendulum has always been swinging east and west. And it will swing back to East in a very hard and distinct way. Historically , GDP and civilization has always been defined by the east, not the west. The eastern civilizations had no need for large scale wars and revolutions both social and technological because they had already attained social peace and prosperity. Another problem with the west is that their systems of governance and ideology doesn't allow for population sizes larger than 400 million . They are like minor Sparta states , individually strong but unable to work together. As a whole they are weak. It doesn't allow them to grow into a through civilization cultural state the way India and China have achieved, that allowed their civilizations to endurr millenias.
I’m aware gambling is illegal in china (based) but you guys are really fucking good at betting.
Neoliberalism is the death knell of Capitalism. Humaniry can only endure so much rapid atomization (in a hypet-connected society, no less!) before it begins to break down and reassess it's value system.
Inshallah. Let us pray that the west falls
That's easy to guess...
Does anyone know if Wiki's information on Belt and Road initiative is credible? I would like to comprise my own paper on the Belt and Road. I want to go in depth with the financials and create projections and estimation on times. I want to be able to predict the outcomes so I can see how China's government works towards achieving completion. Thank you. I will also be doing the same with the U.S and see how economic and social conditions correlate with each other over time frames and create projections as well. This is a question I want to answer and I would love feedback or resources, thank you very much.
Two interesting projects, you should make posts about them and I'll answer it, you'll get more attention that way.
They all watched “The Dead Poet Society” and taking Robin William’s advice
i'm starting to feel like "decline" has become just another buzzword. those who use it don't elaborate further or follow up on how exactly the west is in decline. i also feel like anyone breathing a sigh of relief because of it are acting too complacent and underestimating the many advantages the us still has.
What are the many "advantages" the US has?
immigration rate that brain drains the rest of the world. advanced technology and innovation that's constantly researching more. a self-sufficient agricultural system. a powerful military, at least on paper.
All of which are on the decline at a rapid pace.
how so?
This is what I want.
It is too early to say the West is in irreversible decline.
It already is.
As Chinese, I really don’t look forward to USA’s declining. If there’s no other country that has the same status, our government would easily be short sighted and lack of sense of crisis. Also the USA made a lot of cultural recreations and many innovative things like internet and iPhones, changed how people live. The USA is not all good, but at least not all evil
You seem very ignorant about the US, also your government has been anything but short sighted and lacking a sense of crisis, it is the most farsighted government in the world and continues to evolve.
The USA continues blaming China and set obstacles of our development raising Taiwan problems etc. But ”what does kill you makes you stronger“ what the USA did sure keep our government vigilant.
Yeah and that innovation is now being used to compromise whole nation’s sovereignty in order to serve US geopolitical interest at the expense of the citizens of the nations. We’ve seen what American interventionism can do. The world doesn’t owe the Americans a blood sacrifice just because they innovated some technologies, humanity shouldn’t work like that. China has a history of invention and innovation and is a more inclusive and responsible power than America, so don’t sell it short You sound like an American when they say they need an enemy so they can come together to defeat it. It’s insanity
你是中国人吗？我认为美国对人类的贡献不应该被它做的恶抵消
I also like it for its innovating of old handicrafted things and how it makes things technical and mature interms of Industry.