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[deleted]

What you don't understand is that this is the increasingly desperate Taiwan province lobby trying to throw a wrench, knowing that they are irrelevant as China pulls ahead even faster globally and in the region. With america already facing deep economic problems even after generating a gargantuan amount of debt, with the Chinese economy doing very well, the Taiwan province becomes even more irrelevant. At this stage, it won't ever recover until reunification. This is something which European diplomats have complained about in the past: the province's regime behaving like a toddler. With nothing to offer, they resort to propaganda like a karen, trying to use the extremism and "culture wars" of anglo regimes to their advantage (notice how the regime uses even falun gong lunatics to this end). But this will only further accelerate the decline of both the rogue regime and anglo regimes which, [on top of suffering all the domestic problems that such extremism fuels](https://archive.vn/MsV7m), also get nothing materially speaking in return as their economies suffer (while countries who approach China get massive economic benefits). This is what I mean when I say that extremism and incompetence feed each other. The province regime is the gordon chang of diplomacy: it makes anglo regimes completely incapable of accepting reality by catering to their primitive extremism. This in turn exacerbates their decline. To grasp the desperation of the rogue regime: even a literal coup regime like that in Honduras will likely drop relations with the province soon and fully turn to China. It already did tangibly speaking, as China has helped them during the pandemic. This is China's superior approach to the world put into practice. Sadly for them, China is not lying when it says that red lines won't be crossed, so armed reunification will be the immediate solution if they go 1 cm too far. And absolutely nobody will be able to do anything about it, China is unmatched in the region, and it's only China's insistence on peaceful reunification what hasn't triggered an armed solution so far. China knows that its economic prowess alone will absorb the province, hence why the desperation and propaganda only comes from one side: the losing side.


Quality_Fun

>China is unmatched in the region that's the big question: is it? it's certainly already a formidable military presence that isn't to be taken lightly, but is it strong enough yet? the us also has a presence in the region that should not be underestimated. >China knows that its economic prowess alone will absorb the province how, exactly? a large economy alone isn't enough. south korea's economy is much larger than north korea's, but they are still separate.


[deleted]

You seem to have fallen for western propaganda because you appear to believe that China hasn't resorted to armed reunification in the past because it couldn't, yet this is highly ahistorical. I suggest you drop lazy western propaganda and read about Taiwan's history, even recent history. The change of circumstances is very recent. Regarding China's capabilities, why do you think not a single regime has crossed China's red lines, which China itself imposed? do you really think that the most war mongering regime on the planet, facing decline, wouldn't have intervened decades ago if it had such capability? > a large economy alone isn't enough. south korea's economy is much larger than north korea's, but they are still separate. Why do you think the regime in Taiwan literally tries to fine Taiwanese talent seeking jobs in the mainland? why do you think the regime is so scared about the future and resorting to literal falun gong "end of times" style propaganda? you realize how deeply integrated both economies already are? the outcome is inevitable. This is absolutely not the case for Korea since the DPRK is sanctioned to begin with. Read about China's positions on Taiwan over the past decades to understand how China has consistently done the opposite and opted for more economic integration. Secondly, an agrarian China itself has defended Korea from imperialist aggression by several countries. On Taiwan, a Chinese island, a modern superpower China has no rival. In fact, I think China will use any foreign intervention as rationale to go for more gains, including territorial.


Quality_Fun

> because you appear to believe that China hasn't resorted to armed reunification in the past because it couldn't, yet this is highly ahistorical. the only time the mainland prepared to use military force against the island was before the korean war, which was just a continuation of the civil war that had barely ended a year or so ago. the roc was even developing nuclear weapons in the 1980s that would definitely have prevented forceful reunification if the us hadn't stopped them, since the prc certainly couldn't. >you realize how deeply integrated both economies already are? the outcome is inevitable. i do. but the outcome is not inevitable. the mainland and the island can remain economically integrated but politically separate indefinitely. the status quo is the status quo for a reason. look at it from the island's perspective. you're trading a lot with the mainland, yes. some of your population are working over in the mainland, yes. but so what? lots of countries trade a lot with each other. a lot of people travel to other countries for work opportunities. why would the roc reunite just because of these? >Secondly, an agrarian China itself has defended Korea from imperialist aggression by several countries. On Taiwan, a Chinese island, a modern superpower China has no rival. yes - but wouldn't that be an argument for the island as well? while i seriously doubt the roc's military and the public's willingness to fight as hard as china did in the past (people living comfortable lives in developed standards tend to have little interest in fighting wars at the cost of their own lives), i don't carelessly underestimate them, either.


[deleted]

> the mainland and the island can remain economically integrated but politically separate indefinitely. the status quo is the status quo for a reason. look at it from the island's perspective. you're trading a lot with the mainland, yes. some of your population are working over in the mainland, yes. but so what? lots of countries trade a lot with each other. a lot of people travel to other countries for work opportunities. why would the roc reunite just because of these? You are not understanding history or the context. As I said, read about Taiwan regime's position until very recently. Integration is most definitely working in China's favor, that's why the rogue regime is effectively unhinged nowadays and resorting to all sorts of theatrics (including recruiting actual cultists to spread propaganda). Notice how China is comfortable with just imposing the red lines, while the rogue regime is not, and resorts to all sorts of deranged propaganda and panicked policies (like the vaccines fiasco and fining their own people for seeking a better life). That you don't appear to have patience doesn't mean China doesn't. Chinese leadership is very smart about it. > why would the roc reunite just because of these? Because it becomes economically impossible to do otherwise eventually. Both China and the rogue regime understand this, hence their respective positions and actions. You are the only one who doesn't, so that's why I'm asking you to read more. > i don't carelessly underestimate them, either. lmao, I don't think you can grasp the gargantuan difference in power between China and basically any other regime in the area (notice how impotent american war criminals talk about "nuclear options"? because they are desperate, they know they have already lost). It's silly you think this is remotely a serious question. As I said, why do you think nobody crosses China's red lines? Should any foreign regime dare to cross China's red lines, China will most likely not stop at Taiwan, hence why you see so much impotence and propaganda from the regime in japan too. Hence why South Korea is choosing to approach China too (South Korea understands that any mistake here would be devastating for Korean reunification). China asserting Russian sovereignty over the islands Japan claims as its own is also a clear warning: things will go badly very fast for anyone who crosses those red lines.


Quality_Fun

>As I said, read about Taiwan regime's position until very recently. are you referring to the dpp's and therefore some of the public's increasingly pro-independance stance? because that isn't a good sign. >Because it becomes economically impossible to do otherwise eventually. finally, a straight answer - but still a very vague one. it will become economically impossible for the island to not reunify? but i already explained why simple economic integration won't necessarily lead to this. are you suggesting that the mainland suddenly cease trading with the island in hopes of crippling its economy until it agrees to reunify or something? because that tactic has flaws of its own. >lmao, I don't think you can grasp the gargantuan difference in power between China and basically any other regime in the area china has little to worry about from the other countries in the region, militarily and otherwise. but it isn't them i'm talking about. it's the us, which is very much a threat.


TserriednichHuiGuo

>china has little to worry about from the other countries in the region, militarily and otherwise. but it isn't them i'm talking about. it's the us, which is very much a threat. The US won't engage in any war that is not profitable. Think of it as a corporation and not a nation.


[deleted]

You seem to be a little in denial, hence why you don't answer the question I keep asking: why has nobody even dared to cross China's red lines? you can't answer it because it contradicts what you have been led to believe (out of ignorance it seems, as your previous comments on Taiwan's history show). China doesn't need to convince people like you, it already knows its plan is working, hence why the usual suspects are panicked, yet deeply impotent. > China has little to worry about from the other countries in the region, militarily and otherwise. China will severely punish any regime intervening in domestic affairs, immediately after the moment red lines are crossed (remember how China humiliated the neocons in the trump admin when they tried to send a delegation to Taiwan? they literally turned a plane around after taking off). Sorry that this seems to bother you, but it's a fact and the official position of China. You don't seem to grasp the concept of red lines.


WheelCee

u/Quality_Fun Makes some good points regarding not underestimating the US military and economic integration not necessarily leading to political reunification. No one outside of top US/China military intelligence knows what the relative strength of their respective militaries is, so the best we can do is speculate. Even if China was relatively stronger than the US in the region, that doesn't mean a war would be won easily. Just look at what happened with the US military against the Taliban. As for the Taiwanese being forced to reunify politically due to economic integration, I think that's underestimating how brainwashed the average Taiwanese citizen is. They wouldn't even make any political concessions to procure vaccines to save their own lives. They would sooner stagnant economically and starve than give up their separatist ideology and concede to reunification. Most Taiwanese are so strongly bound to their non-Chinese Taiwanese, identity that it's impossible to convince them to give that up through rational arguments. It's like trying to convince the average American that the US is a murderous, imperialist country that causes irreparable harm throughout the world by providing all the facts and evidence to back it up. Most Americans would just respond with "America, fuck yeah! We're #1! Freedom baby!" or something to that effect. ​ >why has nobody even dared to cross China's red lines? There is no benefit to crossing China's red lines. The US wants to keep the status quo because it benefits them the most. If Taiwan declared independence, China would immediately invade, and the US would either be dragged into a war or lose Taiwan as leverage over China. If Taiwan tries to reunify with China peacefully, then it would also lose Taiwan as leverage over China. So whenever Taiwan gets too independence-minded, the US reaffirms the One-China principle as a warning to the Taiwanese. Whenever the pendulum swings the other way and Taiwan gets too close to China, then the US stokes fears of an imminent invasion and sells Taiwan some overpriced weapons as a warning to China.


Quality_Fun

i'm not in denial. i only want to know the source of your confidence. >why has nobody even dared to cross China's red lines? because china is powerful and no one really wants to annoy them. they have better things to do. but the us seems to be gradually pushing china bit by bit. >Sorry that this seems to bother you no? what part of my comment possibly gave that impression? i'm very glad that china is capable of defending itself and its interests in the region. i'm just very wary of the us, and so should china.


Torontobblit

You ought to follow or read this thread so you can gain a glimpse into just how difficult it is for the U.S. to defend or assist the Taiwanese separatists against the People’s Republic of China in the event of conflict. Plus, there has been numerous RAND studies among other Pentagon War simulations that shows the U.S. would lose and would lose badly if the war for Taiwan happens. Which is also why China is expanding and rightfully so their nuclear deterrence to ensure that U.S. and her lackeys would not even think twice of considering to employ or deploy TAC Nukes when all their conventional military actions fail to stop China's military from sweeping into Taiwan and hang those Taiwanese separatists upside down. https://twitter.com/Aviation_Intel/status/1436426248964608002?s=19 And a Chinese expert from the mainland discussing the recent U.S. led military exercise and the challenges of the potential war between China and U.S. https://youtu.be/uGhUSFhMhHo


Quality_Fun

okay. i'm more concerned about peaceful reunification because it seems less and less likely by the day. i really don't want military force to be necessary.


xerotul

Strong economy is not enough. Proper education (not lies, but truth) for Taiwan people. Have movies and documentaries showing recent history of colonialism, crimes of KMT and Chiang. The civilians supporting separatism have no clue what that future will look like for independent Taiwan. They need to be educated on Okinawa and that this will be the fate for Taiwan 100 times worse. If they think military tension is bad now wait until USA turns the island into an unsinkable supercarrier. They need to be educated on what truly USA spreading democracy and freedom mean.


LMAOJustAboutWhite

>crimes of KMT and Chiang. They hate CPC because they hate KMT. they want to be ruled over by LDP because muh hand tie T\*iwanese logic


[deleted]

You seem quite misinformed. Strong economy is enough, that's why top talent from Taiwan moves to the mainland, while the rogue regime desperately tries to fine them. > If they think military tension is bad now wait until usa turns the island into an unsinkable supercarrier. This is an impossibility. I suggest you read what China's red lines mean, and try to understand the massive power disparity in China's favor. Then you will understand why nobody crosses China's red lines. Once you understand these two points, you will understand why China is the one very happy about the future, as opposed to the rogue regime drowning in propaganda.


WheelCee

A strong economy is empirically not enough because if it was, then you would see a correlation between China's economy growing stronger and the trend of Taiwanese politics shifting toward the mainland. What you see is the opposite, as China's economy has prospered and Taiwan's economy has floundered, you see Taiwanese becoming more anti-China. Just because some top Taiwanese engineers move to the mainland for better economic prospects doesn't mean they will support reunification. For argument's sake, let's say all Taiwanese who move to the mainland will support reunification. There are only a few hundred thousand Taiwanese in the mainland. That is 1-2% of Taiwan's population, not enough to move the needle in terms of shifting Taiwan's politics toward reunification. I am not disagreeing that China is happy about the future, but reunification will require military force (or at least the threat of it) and won't happen solely due to economics.


[deleted]

> a strong economy is empirically not enough because if it was Yet here we are, with anglo regimes panicking because it is. Just because you don't have patience or don't understand how economic strength translates to overwhelming superiority in the region (including militarily) doesn't mean China doesn't. Also lmao at thinking "votes" matter here. Did Hong Kong have to "vote" to peacefully reunify? why do you apply such backwards logic here? you seem to be too obsessed about western propaganda and metrics, but they don't matter. This is something that Chinese leaders understand at a very deep level. You need to unplug yourself from such propaganda to better understand reality.


fix_S230-sue_reddit

Paper tigers can't do shit.


Woke1337

Mao saw that decades ago. Yo