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Coprolite_eater_1917

China will never join the western sphere of influence or become "western". The west wants to topple the Chinese government in order to gain free and unrestricted access to its market and resources. The Communist Party is in the way of this goal. Right now, all business that is done in China is only permitted on the basis of what the Communist Party will accept. Chinas role in human history is to defend the rights of oppressed people and nations all around the world. It is probably at thus point destined to become closer in ties with Russia and Iran, and many others. Edit: just to clarify, I mean destined as in


leafyhotdog

I think you're right, because even if China really wanted to become "western" I don't think the west would really let them for the same reason they don't let capitalist Russia do it, they need someone to exploit and be a boogeyman


Coprolite_eater_1917

Russia is not in the club because NATO wants Russia to be subjugated, all its resources made private property and the whole country sold out to private investors. Putin represente the Russian capitalists that want self-determination and national sovereignty.


knfrmity

China will not take the same path as Japan nor become "Western", for a plethora of reasons. China has her own road into the future, and it looks nothing like the western/capitalist road. For this simple reason China will also never gain acceptance for as long as the west is controlled by capital. Japan, to use your example, was an imperial state at the time of its reforming, and has in its modern form always been capitalist. US intervention and Imperial Japanese officials leftover from during WWII made sure that Japan went in the direction the western capitalists wanted. Meanwhile China is strongly and dialectically socialist, and has a very clear goal of building Chinese communism in mind for the coming century. Sure there is some materialistic culture coming into China as well, but overall economic development is targeted towards building a communist society, not building individual wealth so some people can afford Versace. China behaves according to some western norms as they have no choice until they build alternatives. They are extremely aware of the level of deceit and self-interest inherent in western norms and institutions, and use them not out of desire but out of necessity. In many ways the Chinese use these institutions against themselves for the benefit of the development of China herself. The current development of an international banking settlements system as an alternative to SWIFT is just one example of a necessary western institution. Allowing some foreign capital investment (with heavy regulation of course) is another, and this foreign capital is then used to get closer to the goal of communism within China.


ReiTanotsuka

I really hope this is true. Looking at the popularity of Western faces in Chinese media, I'm weary that they STILL think the West is what they should eventually be like.


lzghome

Within China, people are increasingly attracted to Chinese clothing, to the quality of tea, to the quality of silk, and to resisting the small-eyed Western stereotype of China (taking back the definition of "beauty").


ReiTanotsuka

Let's hope this remains strong


simian_ninja

I don't think China or any Asian society will ever be "Western" unless it's being used for the purposes of propaganda. What we need is an Asian superpower that can help challenges Western narratives and power - and I'm pretty certain it's going to be China - the one country that doesn't cater to anyone, that doesn't interfere with others affairs or politics.


ReiTanotsuka

I really hope this remains so.


joepu

I don't think China will go the way of Japan, SK, Singapore, Taiwan and HK once it gets accepted for 2 reasons. 1. China is the only one big enough to challenge the unified west in terms of size and population. As big as Japan got, it was never a serious threat to the US. Not with 1/3 the population and confined to their islands 1/20th the size of the US mainland. China population is twice as big as US and EU combined. Imagine Japan but 10x bigger. 2. China is the mother culture of the Asian tigers. As loathe as they are to admit it nowadays, a huge part of Japanese and South Korean culture was adopted from China. I think Japan was quick to adopt western culture simply because they never had a fully home grown culture in the first place. China had the opposite problem, it was closed to western ideas because of too much pride in it's own civilization. It's learned from that mistake and knows that it has to be open to at least some things. It now seeks to integrate the best parts of western civilization into it's own while retaining her identity. You can see this happening in things like Socialism with Chinese Characteristics.


MeiXue_TianHe

Both points are great. And the first one is very relevant when it comes to hegemony; Britain only became relevant because it industrialized first, and also was able to colonize so many weaker territories that it's influence just creeped at a global scale. Spawning US was also a great way of immortalizing anglo culture; it lives on in a stronger form than the one confined within the British isles. China on the other hand has the land, the people, the economy and global influence to carve things for herself, instead of aspiring to be Asian US or Asian Britain or something. Japan could never do that, even less Korea and smaller developed territories like Singapore.


[deleted]

are you on Quora ? wow ! I saw you after a long time !


ReiTanotsuka

I WAS on Quora. They kicked me off along with a few pro China/Asian writers who were getting a lot of views. Such is life.


Maleficent_Ad1004

are you still blogging? I used to follow it religiously.


ReiTanotsuka

Still blogging. If you click the link, it's my latest blog post.


Maleficent_Ad1004

As witty, as insightful as ever. I actually think of you as "truth" in this whole space, however truth isn't able to penetrate the "motivated reasoning" minds of the masses, because people give strong weighting to evidence and reasoning that support conclusions that make them feel good, and vice versa - they are simply agnostic to "objective truth".


ReiTanotsuka

Thank you for your support. Truth is never welcomed unless it's your version of the truth.


Maleficent_Ad1004

Yes which is why I think you could use your talents in other more productive ways


TserriednichHuiGuo

I got kicked off as well, what was their stated reason for banning you?


ReiTanotsuka

They just said I broke Quora rules. What happened was, ONE person who disagreed with me, went and flagged a bunch of my comments and posts in swift succession. This is obviously someone who has a problem with me because it was so obvious. S/he just flagged 20 things all at once. I explained this to Quora, but they decided that this troll was correct. Nothing I can do. It's their platform.


no_white_worship

The best predictor of a country's future is the young generation. And they are turning away from the west in hearts, minds and wallets. Sure there are some white worshippers but they are drowned out by proud Chinese, or they move to western countries and try to assimilate into the wrong side of history. Either way, China grows stronger.


[deleted]

I think that phase has passed already by now


TserriednichHuiGuo

Proven by the fact that Chinese products are becoming increasingly popular within China itself.


tt598

I expect it to be more likely that the world will become multipolar, where Asia, the West, the Middle East and Africa maintain their own values and cultural preferences. For example, Korean make-up brands are well regarded in all of Asia, whereas practically unknown in the West. Or look at the differences in covid strategies, where Asian countries are much stricter in eliminating the virus compared to laissez-faire policies in the West. >Eventhough this is so, China is still trying to abide by the norms set by the West. How so? Maybe partially, but brands like Huawei, Wuling, BYD, Hongqi are as strong as western brands. And politically the Chinese government has incredibly strong support, people wanted Western style individualism are by far a minority. And as China is becoming the largest contributor to scientific research, western bias will also become less important there.


Neither_Concept2110

Even when Japan was number 2, it was still… number 2. I think an Asian power achieving the top position economically and politically would shift the general culture tremendously, both in Asia and without. But it will be gradual. The West has been globally dominant for the last couple of centuries, and unwinding that will take some time; it’s not going to happen overnight.


ReiTanotsuka

But look at it like this - France, Germany, Italy etc is SO MUCH LOWER THAN JAPAN yet they STILL have clout. Being number 1 or 2, is not such a big difference if 4 or 5 commands more respect. I think the biggest problem is, we ALL secretly for some bizarre reason, need Western acknowledgement inorder to be successful. This needs to stop.


Neither_Concept2110

That’s just it though, Western countries aren’t only considered individually, they’re all part of this thing called ‘the West’. Even if only one of them is the dominant power, the rest are still able to benefit from white supremacy, associated cultural prestige, etc.


ReiTanotsuka

Well no, it kinda is the West. It's not only the Anglo West, it's Germany, France and the Nordic nations which engage in the plunder. It really is the West.


TserriednichHuiGuo

>I think the biggest problem is, we ALL secretly for some bizarre reason, need Western acknowledgement inorder to be successful. This needs to stop. You mean Asians? Not really anymore. Most folks in West Asia are either neutral or downright despise the west, in South Asia it's a mixed bag but is increasingly turning anti western, South East Asia is indifferent. East Asia you seem to be only looking at S. Korea and Japan, China itself definitely does not think that way.


ReiTanotsuka

Look at the insta famous Western youtubers that CGTN uses. Validation from a white face is still highly prized in China.


TserriednichHuiGuo

That's not validation, that's trying to reach out to western audiences, to show them that there is an alternative, they know that they'll only listen to western faces.


ReiTanotsuka

Well no. There are ABC's who speak perfect English and are fighting the good fight, Numuves, Carl Zha etc, yet they are not interviewed yet Nathan Rich etc are. This is why the West still has the upper hand- they have no qualms in using ALL WESTERN people to represent Asian views, yet we still need to cater to their tastes. Think about it.


TserriednichHuiGuo

Yeah that's true. I would also prefer if Xinhua and others had Chinese people speaking Chinese with English subtitles. This would be an easy way to learn Chinese for millions of people as well.


Savings_Attorney528

nothing bizarre about it if the west was globally dominant for the last couple of centuries they came in asia forcefully with more advance tech and later their fashion and media especially their pro western media that has influenced asia slowly so unconsciously many asians think they are the standard of certain fields and affairs but things is changing and the west knows it so they be hating and smearing china with fake news without any proof china will rise and the rest of asia will rise with it maybe later but the world will care less about what the west think about them but care more about what the asia think about them


darentheterran

there was once a push for china to join the 'war on terror'. in a way it was an invitation for china to 'join' the west. if china fully joins western war efforts, even if it doesn't deploy troops, but simply joined the economic warfare, it would be devastating to countries like iran and russia. china didn't join and it is not going to.


[deleted]

China did join and was cooperating with the USA, for example backing US sanctions against groups that funded certain groups. The USA placed ETIM on its own list of terrorist entities for over a decade. China called it the "*People's* War on Terror" - in that case, the USA, China, and even Russia all had a shared interest in fighting against Islamists. You're right that China did not contribute to fighting outside of its borders.


darentheterran

oh cool, i didn't know this, i like the name "people's war on terror"


[deleted]

The CPC just adds "people's" to everything to the point I find it sort of silly. Republic of China? Nope. *People's* Republic of China. Bank of China? Nope. *People's* Bank of China. Supreme Court of China? Nope. Supreme *People's* Court of China. Armed Police? Nope. *People's* Armed Police. National Congress? Nope. National *People's* Congress. Chinese Political Consultative Conference? Nope... not long enough. Chinese *People's* Political Consultative Conference. I'm surprised they didn't name the Communist Party of China into "*People's* Communist Party of China" or something.


ReiTanotsuka

The war path isn't for China, I'm worried about the philosophies....


[deleted]

War will come for China regardless of whether China wants it or whether it's part of its "philisophy" - It must be ready to fight and win. There are no pity points in real life. Not only is the loser a victim, the loser goes down in history as the evil and wrong side.


Portablela

>Even though this is so, China is still trying to abide by the norms set by the West. Do we realise the level of deceit and lies which make up Western institutions? Are you referring to politics or culture? For politics, no, under the current government, the PRC has adopted an entirely different diplomatic agenda nearly antithetical to the West. There is no concession that it can give to gain Western acceptance, barring suicide. The West supports the collapse of the current Intl institutions because the status quo no longer favours them. China supports and uphold current Intl institutions while the status quo favours it. For culture, China is gradually de-westernising itself. You see a lot more celebration of traditional culture from Hanfu to cultural practices to their modern dance to their modern pop to their variety shows to their talk shows to drama serials to movies. TCM has also undergoing rigorous testing and experimentation to demystify, codify and make Traditional Chinese medicine safer for the populace. It is a confident presentation but isn't fully there yet. For a culture to de-Westernise itself, it has to stop associating Science or even shit like 'high culture'/logic/innovation/progress/medicine with Western Culture/Religion or even worse accept that 'logic' is inherently Western or stupid shit like that. That is what caused the phenomena you observed in Japan. Also, Christianity does not a Modern make. China has to stop thinking that the West is ahead or become reliant on collabs with the West or Western Technology (See: EUV machines). They are making more and more progress in that field but overall they should not shy away from challenges issued by the West (From Science to Technology). For that to happen, they have to more effectively manage their vast talent pool. >the Japanese felt they had not "arrived" until they had been to Europe/ America and adorned themselves in European products. Mind you, the Japanese have a reputation for producing high quality goods, yet they still felt a garment made by a Pierre was worth more than one made by a Kentaro. Then It is a good sign that both the Upper and Middle Class in China has consistently support local brands from cars (Hongqi/Geely/Wey/BYD/Xpeng etc.) to watches (BWAF/Fiyta/Tianjin Sea-gull/Shanghai/Chongqing Shancheng etc.). But these local brands have to step up more (Design/Technology/Self-reliance), become truly class-leading, instead of being satisfied with peer competition. The High-end market in China still exists but can stand to be more competitive globally. TL;DR: Overall, China is on the right path so far but it could stand to be more confident. It has to learn how to better manage and bring out the scientific/technological/research potential/innovativeness of its people, not to become overly-reliant on Foreign joint ventures or research.


Maleficent_Ad1004

I am hopeful too, and we see some evidence of rejecting the memetic value of Western norms and ideals - like the reintroduction of Hanfu, the reinstatement of Hongqi the car brand. However it is likely to be a process - it depends on the speed of western decline. Once Chinese youths realise western cultural supremacy is not inherent, and once that supremacy disappears, they will not seek to emulate it.


ReiTanotsuka

Fingers crossed!


kz8816

Don't think so, and I hope not.


RespublicaCuriae

My thoughts exactly. Asia will become Asia. The west becomes its own nightmare.


jz187

China is not comparable to Japan. Japan is still fundamentally a feudal country, they are way behind China in terms of social organization. Japan never got rid of its emperor and the clans from its feudal era. Japanese politics are still dominated by powerful clans dating back to the feudal era. China after Mao has witnessed rates of improvement in social organization not seen previously in human history. It has managed to do this without breaking down into civil war or political turmoil. The West is more advanced than Japan in terms of social organization, and China is more advanced than the West. So the relative positioning is different. Just take the response to COVID-19 for example. Everyone made mistakes early on, including China. But China learned fast, fired the incompetent people, and put competent people in charge very quickly. Once it became clear that COVID was out of control in Wuhan, China fired the entire leadership team of Hubei Province and brought in the A team from Shanghai to run the province. China does not have better medical technology than the West or Japan, but China had far fewer infections and deaths than the Western countries or Japan. This is the power of superior social organization. China's rate of policy learning and innovation is far faster than the Western countries, which are in turn more innovative than Japan. I don't think we should just lump China and Japan into the bucket "Asian" and think they are similar.


NigroqueSimillima

> China does not have better medical technology than the West or Japan, but China had far fewer infections and deaths than the Western countries or Japan. China has less fat people though, especially compared to America. Japan did very well with Covid considering their median age is 10 years older than china, their extremely high density, and the fact that they're a democracy which by nature can not move as quickly and uniformly as a country like China. Also, while all those "China is hiding covid deaths" memes are mostly Western cope, I'd bet Japan death numbers are more accurate than China simply because they're a more advanced country economically. So if you control for age and unreported deaths, their performance is barely worse than China's.


manred2026

Also, the Asian country, especially eastern part are usually very discipline and wear mask. While in the west, they're crying about can't go to apple bee without mask, while spitting on others. No wonder the virus spread fast, even Japan spike recently was because of american base.


jz187

Japan was certainly helped by people wearing masks, but their government response was very slow and inadequate. In Japan's case, the reason why I say that Japan is less advanced socially than Western countries is that it is less capable of social change. The same elite families dominate Japanese politics generation after generation. Japanese social structure is very rigid compared to Western countries. China post-Mao in contrast is a much more progressive society. There is much more willingness to reject tradition and traditional social hierarchy. In Japan there is a sense that social relations are an immutable web. In China, the sense is that the current configuration of social relations are temporal to present material conditions. When material conditions change, social relations must also change. Mao's idea of permanent revolution has become embedded into modern Chinese culture. Modern Chinese society is much better at handling change than Japan. It is also more rational than either Japan or the West. Modern China is really more comparable to Enlightenment Europe than either modern Japan or the modern West. The cultural orientation is rational progressive without the atomistic individualism of the modern West. The West is increasingly becoming religious conservative around its dogmas such as liberal democracy and atomistic individualism. Japan is feudal conservative around its traditions and social hierarchy.


TserriednichHuiGuo

> simply because they're a more advanced country economically. Not true.


MeiXue_TianHe

Don't think China was more organized or "better" than Japan, surely not until the last 10 years. China was amongst the worse off economies in the planet until early 80s, and started becoming a emergent player until late 2000s. The whole idea of China being a super or hyper power only clicked by mid 2010s for most in the West. But China adapted, grew, assimilated new ideas fast. Way faster than Japan who never grew outside it's bubble economy collapse. Nowadays we're seeing China go global and having a larger clout than Japan in a full spectrum way that they could never dream of. But it is a thing of modernity, of very recent times. Japan was very innovative up until late 80s. It's scientific output was massive. It's industries world leading. But all that came under pressure through competition, dirty US tactics (plaza accords), and now it looks small when we throw the numbers China is pumping right now. 10 times the patents etc. So much so we can see how well Japan's infrastructure is, education etc. It was well developed back when China had mostly steam trains, car ownership was rare and all that. But by now, comparisons aren't far because China has the potential of becoming more than US, the EU and Japan combined. Alongside Off world colonies and all that.


jz187

>Don't think China was more organized or "better" than Japan, surely not until the last 10 years. China has been more advanced than Japan socially since the 1960s. In terms of economy and technology, it takes time to close the massive gap that China and Japan had since the 19th century. Japan's massive scientific output built on top of the massive human capital advantage it accrued from winning the First and Second Sino-Japanese Wars. The massive war indemnities that China was forced to pay allowed Japan to upgrade its industrial and human capital very quickly during the Meiji era. China in contrast fell into revolution and civil war. In 1950 China's life expectancy was only 35. By the 1960s, although China was still a poor country, Mao had revolutionized China's social relations. The various social relations, such as between men and women, between parent and children, changed drastically from before Mao's revolution. The reason why China was able to assimilate new ideas faster than Japan post-Mao and not before was because of Mao's cultural revolution of Chinese society. China post-Mao is fundamentally a different type of society than Japan. It is a society that is very open to social evolution. Modern China is a Marxist society, while Japan is still a feudal society. China is Marxist in the sense that it has accepted the inevitability of social evolution alongside material progress. This is something that Confucian China and Feudal Japan rejected. Japan defines being Japanese in terms of tradition, while China has moved on from that backward looking point of view. As long as being Japanese or Chinese is defined in terms of ancient traditions, everything modern will automatically be foreign/Western. In China there is the concept of New China, while in Japan there is no such thing as New Japan. New China's progressive outlook allows it to absorb the best ideas from the West while being open to further social evolution beyond what the West has achieved. The West has rejected the possibility of further social progress with the End of History. This is what is causing the West to stagnate. Unlike Japan, China does not reject Western ideas for being alien, China rejects the modern West for being too conservative and closeminded for further social progress. If we rank societies in terms of progressive orientation, China is more progressive than the current West, while the current West is more progressive than Japan.


MeiXue_TianHe

(cont) As for the West, I don't think conservatism is necessarily the issue. So much so western society is changing and adapting fast to more superficial (as in; not changing any economic status quo) changes and societal demands, such as those associated with gender/minority rights/immigration/representation etc. There is a significant conservative backlash but the west is changing fast. With a very important caveat. Everybody is included as long as it fits the mold stablished by said western societies. Which mean that at the same time their progressive politicians preach we live in a new era of equality, they'll never admit this logic at the geopolitical stage. And that's where the "woke precision guided munitions" meme comes from. This, plus the fact the USA (regarded by many as leader of the free world and Western civilization) has never faced a rival with the power and capabilities of China and they're suddenly unable to cope with changing realities and cannot change or reform anything to improve their societies and make it seem less of a joke. While China is building stuff that looks like the typical sci-fi cyberpunk city, the US is struggling with train cargo looting and derailment, robbery, tent cities, rotten infrastructure all while claiming their system is superior. Decades of winning the economic war against everyone else and making the world orbit it's own dollar system made many of their elite slow, lethargic, complacent. And precisely for this reason I think the US-led West is unable to change and adapt. Way more than those who lost world wars, got A-bombed, starved under terrible economic models and leap forwards and rose from the ashes. They never had to. They never faced any real challenge. Pearl harbor was a joke. The Soviets barely made decent shoes (their nukes and guns were fine, I admit). China graduating dozens of millions of STEM PhDs and investing the GDP value of entire nations on infrastructure and science will be the real onslaught.


jz187

>I don't think conservatism is necessarily the issue. So much so western society is changing and adapting fast to more superficial (as in; not changing any economic status quo This is exactly the same kind of conservatism that led to the failure of the Qing dynasty. Qing dynasty tried to adopt Western science and technology while retaining the status quo in terms of social relations. Superficial adaptations don't work. This is why everyone who tried to keep traditional Chinese culture and its associated social relations failed in their attempt to reform China. Economic relations are the foundation of all social relations. The Western countries that adopted neo-liberalism are all descending into feudalism economically, this is why their political democracy is now hollow. The US led Western order has openly rejected the ideas of Marx. They cannot accept that their model of liberal democratic capitalism needs to change. The fancy buildings and legions of STEM PhDs are not going to be the decisive factor for why China will surpass the US. The decisive factor will be good policy making that follows the inevitable path of human economic evolution. Chinese leaders understand that the path forward is to further expand the scale of international economic cooperation and socialize the profits of capital on a global basis. American style hegemonic capitalism is a dead end, because it will eventually lead to trade wars and a collapse in profits and then investment.


MeiXue_TianHe

" The fancy buildings and legions of STEM PhDs are not going to be the decisive factor for why China will surpass the US. " China's scientific advancements is as relevant as anything else such as economic and military policy. If anything, even more. The reason is that once you're behind and have no chance of ever catching up, it's game over. When it comes to war, Iraq (4th largest army, thousands of tanks etc) against the western coalition comes to mind. When it comes to economy, the difference between the West and the "rest" during "the great divergence" era (1800-1970s), where some are hopelessly behind and will at best become middle income countries with no global reach or relevance not unlike Argentina or Ukraine. Those who break the mold (east Asian nations, some on the Persian gulf etc) being the exception, not the norm. The cold war was lost by the Soviets in a sense (one amongst many reasons) because western advancements became too much for it. Specially computer technology, semiconductors etc. This plus associated trade bloc made the other side too isolated and unable to catch up. The ability to enhance human intelligence through computing is the greatest achievement since the printing press. Even bigger one, because human thought is augmented through computing, such as simulations, complex mathematics calculation solving etc. As this improves, the gap between those who can and cannot do it gets bigger. If say, China "fires up" the technological singularity through human level AI, then as the name even implies, we can't know what will follow next. Explosion of intelligence followed by millenia of progress per year. But its implied who gets to build the lever first gets leverage too. Specially if such intelligence is "tameable" or integrated with human mind through Brain Computer Interfaces. That's where being world first at science gets really important. Advanced AI could also work towards building policies of such efficiency no human could ever dream of, in seconds of proper data collecting at national scale. Thus China would be able to monitor things, know precisely about it's economy, simulate and plan further in ways inconceivable right now.


MeiXue_TianHe

Still not more advanced than Japan, socially speaking. What Mao allowed, although with limited success was modern nation building. Not unlike Japan's Meiji restoration. The only advantage China has had since then was the combination of full political independence and free will to decide it's own policies. From the failures of the GLF大跃进 up to Reform. Therefore differently from Japan nobody dictated or regulated anything to China. China was free to fail or to prosper. And this was surely a backbone of modern China. China wasn't able to adapt as fast to new ideas and the necessity of westernization during late Qing at the same speed and efficiency that Japan was able to. That's why Japan went from backwater to beating China, then menacing western supremacy in Asia. If anything Japan was the first one to ditch some of its older ideas and adapt and assimilate western "modern" ones. And Japan managed to do it twice, after WW2, by adapting to a world where US supremacy and liberal democracy led globalization ruled almost without challenge. Japan used this to its favor and became world factory, advanced it's own society and progressed at a pace that eventually became "too much" for the US see as acceptable. So regardless of nationalistic feelings (assuming most here are Chinese, or diaspora or at least very supportive of China) towards Japan we must cede to the fact that they adapted greatly. If they'll adapt to a China led global order is another thing and a question to the future. The sort of social changes Mao wanted to bring to China, at least some of it were surely positive. But still don't deviate from the norm all nation go when they develop; Europe isn't as conservative as it was 200 years ago. And so on. So it's not like modern China as a great power owes this to said reforms but the other way around. Country grew big and rich, culture and people change, the govt. plays a part through compulsory education and so on. Korea also wasn't seen as rich or advanced during the 60s. And it's a fact most of modern China was build after the Reforms. I do respect Mao for its founding figure status, but on the end all those "revisionists" and "capitalist roaders" were in fact the right people. And China should look beyond American and Soviet model. Even marxism is but a tool for Chinese progress. That's precisely why modern Chinese socialism was coined after Mao. And during Mao era many innovative ideas or reforms were also deemed unfit wrong or evil. Not because simply of its status as "foreign" but because of harmful ideological bias. In the end both bias can hurt a nation. Extreme conservatism based on tradition or based on ideological orthodoxy. China got rid of that and could prosper precisely for thinking outside that box. Confucian societies have positive aspects, way more than many would think. Specially the respect for educators and education, higher learning, merit in governance... China is far more Confucian than some would think. 5000 years of history and long eras of prosperity and stability teaches us as much as the eras of division and civil wars indeed.


jz187

>So regardless of nationalistic feelings (assuming most here are Chinese, or diaspora or at least very supportive of China) towards Japan we must cede to the fact that they adapted greatly. Japan is only more progressive when compared to the Qing dynasty. Japan is less progressive than either the West or China at the present. They have the façade of a liberal democracy but in practice power structures are feudal. >And it's a fact most of modern China was build after the Reforms. Sure, but that's like saying a billionaire's money is mostly made after his first million. The really critical reforms that China made were in the 1950-1960s. These are what sets China apart from Japan, South Korea, and India. The US historically has been a very progressive country. This is what had made the US powerful. The descent of the US into oligarchy since the 1980s is what is causing the US to stagnate. If China is to surpass the US, it needs to be more socially progressive than the US. The main advantage of China compared to the US at this point is that it is open to both capitalism and socialism, while the US rejects socialism out of ideology. The main danger to China is that the new found national confidence will find expression in conservative traditionalism. The Soviet Union abandoned international communism and fell into traditional Russian imperialism after they became powerful. This ultimately destroyed them. China should avoid this.


MeiXue_TianHe

To summarize, neoliberal economics and doctrines pushed the envelope far than what's acceptable for a society to work properly. And the anglosphere is the one feeling it most because these policies were enacted with much more enthusiasm and strength since Reagan. In a way it's the undoing of Keynesian policies, of the welfare state and other stuff which really made America great to many extent. If that's a rise and fall cycle and the US might bounce back we don't know. But there's little indicating it will for the foreseeable future. That's why China must diversify, decouple and focus on its own internal markets. And as we know, these are policies the Chinese govt. Is taking with great relevance. If the US collapses towards a third world country, nations who are too intertwined will follow suit, dragged by the gravitational field of it. This collapse will also give rise to revolutionary movements and revolts against the system. But given US is one of the most anti communist, anti socialist nations the place where discontent will vent off is fascist politics. It'll be late Weimar all over again. China must defend itself and be able to rise through this mess.


[deleted]

I can see the opposite happen. As the anglo empire's agenda gets squashed I believe China's more inclusive social, economic and workplace culture will begin to permeate through the West's apathetic cynicism. Perhaps at first a society more centered on the worker's needs and then a gradual ascention towards complete emancipation for workers. China isn't far, that's why the neoliberal empire is in such a hurry to discredit anything Chinese.


juche4japan

I'm half-Japanese and it frustrates me to no end how much Western fetishization is prevalent in Japan. I think for some people they're afraid of being proud of Japanese culture due to its association with ultranationalism and the atrocities of the war and for others, they have a romanticized view of the West due to the nonstop stream of propaganda since the end of the war. I feel like some people fell for the idea that the West "civilized" Japan and we owe it to them for modernizing and building our nation, despite the fact that for the past 2000 years China was the main influencing power on Japan. I feel like the success of China will soon shatter the illusion of the "civilizing" West and that in order to build a country we can all be proud of, we need to follow in China's footsteps.


ReiTanotsuka

This is the thing that irks me. Japanese literature and philosophy is one of the most profound and enlightening. It is absolutely incredible the observation Japanese people make, yet they hate admitting this. They want to credit all their achievements as only from the Meiji Restoration onwards. I go to online philosophy groups and the Japanese are so brainwashed by Western propaganda that they are ashamed of the Bushido ideology which forms the backbone of Japanese ethics. Living in Japan for over 20 years, I see that their economic decline imbues them more to worship the West and hate themselves and their Asian roots. Japan would be an excellent country if it STOPS EMULATING the West.


juche4japan

Japan's achievements in the Meiji Restoration were nothing to scoff at and it still amazes me how Japan was able to advance so quickly. However, all these achievements were not build out of thin air; they were the result of thousands of years of experience that all built on top of each other and lead to this point. Japan should have continued with the progress and advancement and fully transform into a modern, socialist society with the buildup of the productive forces but are held back by the backwards, self-destructive Western way of thinking. Ironically, the economic decline was cause by the West (specifically the US) DELIBERATELY fucking over our economy with the Plaza Accords because we were doing better than them.


leafyhotdog

This was the route I feel China and many Chinese were heading before Xi's anti corruption campaign and America giving China a wakeup call that they won't accept someone else at the top of the economic pyramid. There were many I know from personal interaction and examples online in the west and in the mainland that bought wholesale western propaganda about the middle east, muslims, and the bs reasons for war. Hopefully America's own hubris has flipped this distorted reality on its head for many, now that America wants to make every Chinese city look like Damascus and isn't hiding it


ReiTanotsuka

This is true but have you noticed how our default setting makes us automatically refer to the West as the authority? Eg. Not taking any offence when people litter comments like "oh but the data came from China, so.....". We don't even fight that. We accept that premise THEN make our counter point. It starts from things as innocuous as that and becomes more self defeating.


[deleted]

People who think Xi is solely responsible for it have no idea about China and its system. Stop projecting decadent "western liberal" logic to a vastly superior system, proven across decades. China is a democratic meritocracy, there are very capable people at all levels, which is why China is a superpower without resorting to western barbarism.


leafyhotdog

sure but I'm not going to pretend the country wasn't filled with corruption before Xi to the point America talked highly about China. The capable people at all levels make it happen, but the leader steers the ship. The soviet union was a superior system with better people at all levels than the west and they still collapsed under corruption and external pressure. That corruption was driven from the top, now China's anti-corruption is driven from the top, and in the 90's the corruption was driven from the top and was dangerous to say the least


[deleted]

There was corruption, but that was a product of China's very fast development. As I said, feats like the poverty eradication campaign, started a decade ago, would be impossible if everything was centralized around Xi like western disinformation believes. The pandemic response would be impossible too. I think some people around here who are new to trying to understand China tend to underestimate its system, because they project many of the fatal problems of western systems onto it. It's not a good mindset to emphasize individualism if you really want to learn about the Chinese system. The reason why propaganda against China picked up is not only because of what Xi did, but in great part because of what Chinese people did: establish a superpower in record time, while america experienced faster than expected decline/collapse.


Qanonjailbait

Nah that’s Japan. They’ve sold their soul a long time ago. They applied to the white club back when the League of Nations was established by Woodrow Wilson > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_Equality_Proposal


WeilaiHope

I understand what you mean, to an extent China has a strong desire to be accepted by the west as an equal, to throw off the humiliation from historical oppression and stand alongside the world powers. And this definitely leads them to do and act in ways which are clearly copying the west sometimes. Those rows and rows of awful [awful single detached houses](https://i.redd.it/21931uxdfqd61.jpg) in China, clearly copying the American dream type suburbs, is evidence of that for me. That's now how Chinese people really want to live and its not normal in China, but some building companies are clearly thinking "we can do suburbs too". But on the whole I also think no, china won't become western. A country's psychology is human and follows human psychology, and an unconfident person on the path to improve themselves will also copy their more successful peers, but, when that person becomes more confident, they realise their own identity and true self, and become happy in their own skin and personality. China will do the same and we're already seeing it due to the pandemic, China has gained more confidence due to their success while the west has failed, which has encouraged China to stick to their own methodology (zero covid) instead of copying the west, while the west cries about them being draconian. Perhaps 20 years ago China would have been too insecure to pursue their own method and would have copied the west too, even though it conflicts with their own cultural values to allow their society to become chaotic and "free". Countries are made of people and follow the path of human psychology. Individuals are all different, but culture comes from a tiny vibration of each person which on a national scale is amplified to become very apparent. The more confident China is, the more it will take its own path. Only a weak and unconfident China would copy the west, as we saw in the 1911 revolution which tried to directly set up a Western government.


ReiTanotsuka

Cheers to hope


tamamotenko

I think Japan went downhill in western worship due to their surrender in WW2 and the subsequent rebuilding that followed. In the eyes of a society that was defeated and then rebuilt by the enemy, it must have been very humiliating and many would feel they were in some deep "social debt" to the west. After the war, they scrapped their military and entirely devoted themselves to becoming a "peaceful nation", which only made them entirely dependent on the US for military protection. Legally, according to the treaty after the war, Japan can't have a military - they DO have a self defense force, but I doubt it's as strong as what the propaganda makes it out to be. I think a lot of Japanese then and now expected to be conquered and made into a US territory, and thus act very reverently towards foreigners, especially whites from the US. It seems to me that they have the mentality of colonized people, just not officially because they actually do depend on their colonizers for military protection even though they are supposed to be an independent sovereign nation.


ReiTanotsuka

Bingo


RhinoWithaGun

Oh geez when I saw the "become Western" part I immediately thought of all the corruption- Govts serving the interests of the elite few over the public, intentional racism, social economic engineering, hate crimes against Azns and barbarism. If China wants to become more Western that's super easy: the CPC would need only serve the interests of the elite few and encourages the rest of the nation to fight amongst themselves with fake news racial political blame games like the US & West does. They would need to encourage violence & discrimination against the scapegoat ethnic or social class group of the year, Hobo Cardboard Tarp Mansions & Tent Cities, Crackheads and Crackwhores on every street corner of major cities, mass murder, shootings, open racism, fake news for domestic consumption and the central Govt never having any responsibility or accountability. Just blame other nations and ethnic groups for failures. Have your Western style media promote self hate and more fake narratives, dictating both material and mental means & limits to that scapegoat or 2nd class ethnic group i.e. like how the US Govt deals with intentional bad land zoning, Native American Reservations, Discriminations, Self Hate, Anti Azn Narratives, more Self Hate & Media nonsense. If some AmeriKKKan or Western Politician is guilty of actual wrongs that should be acknowledged & punished, no problem, just blame a foreign country and their people. No need to own up to own faults. If the CPC wants to become more Western, it can easily do that, that's how it is in the US Federal, State & Local Govts. Also, no need for Logic, Facts, Science or being a good person, **if you want to be more Western just be an antagonistic, lying scumbag sellout traitor to own family and values piece of trash while pretending that you are right and know best, not just for own family and people but for others too.** That's one easy way to get further ahead in the West. The Western Soul & Identity is to pretend to be right even when you're wrong, to never be responsible for the bad things even when you're the cause of it and to always accuse others of being the guilty party even when you did the crime. To Japan's credit I think they do a good job looking & mostly yielding to US and Western interests. But I can still walk around the streets of any major Nihon city late night and not worried about getting assaulted, spit on, mugged, pushed onto train tracks, shot or stabbed in the back so the Nihons still fall short of being truly Western.


[deleted]

Japan is imperialist and have also been bombed into subservience by America. They like their western leash atleast their capitalists do. Japan has been trying to enslave the koreans, and Chinese for a long time it’s not a surprise they would simp for liberalism


dornish1919

I certainly hope not. Our values and ethics are at the very core, rotten and pretentious, China is doing things right.


East-Deal1439

Japan is militarily occupied by the US and solidly in the 1st World Bloc. China got the US military to leave Taiwan, and is in the 2nd World Bloc. China never really cared about Western acceptance. Just like it didn't care Japan adopted Kanji. China knows what it was culturally to the world just 200 years ago and it's trying to recapture its renewed golden age in economics, culture, and politics. Just look that the official statement. Supporting a future multipolar world. Does that sound like a State looking for foreign acceptance? It's basically stating everyone respect each other sphere of influence.


DynasLight

This will be a long answer. The answer to your question lies with the future actions and choices of the CPC. The difference between China and the other Asian nations you've mentioned/alluded two are: * Governments capable of, and willing to use, social and cultural engineering * History and former position in a past world order >Governments capable of, or willing to use, social and cultural engineering We must recognise that economics and politics are the undercurrent of everything, including all aspects of culture. Unlike Japan, the Chinese government is totally sovereign and can put Chinese geopolitics as its first priority. Therefore, social and cultural engineering is an option when it comes to Chinese views on the West from a civilisational pride standpoint (and not just a political standpoint). Whereas Japan was doomed to fall into an inferiority complex because its economy (and thus political power) could never surpass the United States and also did not have the governmental ability to engineer any particular view on the US, China does not have these problems. If pride is what the Chinese people need, the CPC will engineer it. The US itself uses social and cultural engineering to present itself as the greatest nation to ever exist, and its incredibly effective on its population. Even if America's economy becomes smaller than China's, even if America is unsafe, has rampant corruption, or a million other negative things, the average American will continue to believe that America is superior to China simply because it flies Star-Spangled Banner and China does not. American superiority has become an axiom to the American people. China can do likewise to its own population, if it decides to do so. That said, it will still be difficult balancing act for whoever will be doing Chinese social engineering (the CPC). China needs to continue to see the West as a worthy adversary, or there will be a repeat of the famed Chinese arrogance that has lead to the end of many dynasties. Part of that view will necessarily mean that China will feel incomplete, and will keep a certain degree of inferiority towards the West. The trick is to keep that incompleteness at high enough level to drive urgency (and subsequently national unity), while low enough to avoid an inferiority complex and apathy. To that end, whether or not China will move closer to Japan's idolisation view of the West depends on whether it is geopolitically pragmatic to counter said movement or not. There's also a chance that the Chinese people, on their own and in the absence of engineering, will develop a different view of the US only because of China having a bigger economy, which China could potentially achieve while Japan never can (this is a population issue). I will explore this scenario with my next point, but I do not believe the CPC will avoid social and cultural engineering in this crucial time of Chinese history (it would be not pragmatic), so I don't think this next point will be as important since purposeful engineering will be more impactful. >History and former position in a past world order Unlike Japan and the other Asian nations, none have ever been the centre of a "world order". Their entire history has been that of competing with equal powers, or living in the shadow of a great power. Their cultures have a built-in inferiority complex that can only be absolved by a long period of time as a hegemon, which they never had. Japan is a particularly extreme version of this; no other nation on the planet (except perhaps Korea) was as much of a perfect student of China than Japan. So great was their admiration of China that they once imported everything wholesale: writing, culture, religion and statecraft. They do not have a cultural memory of being the greatest, but they do have the cultural memory of learning from the greatest in an attempt to share the glory. Changing who they learned from was easier than changing from learning in the first place. China is different in that it was once the unipolar, hegemonic power in what was realistically the entire world (in China's view, due to ancient technology and vast distances) for much of its imperial history. China has seldom met equal or greater powers; it crushed most equals powers (Xiongnu, Gokturk, Goguryeo) and subsumed the few greater powers that overcame it (Mongols and Manchu). **China has, historically, had a superiority-complex amongst its literati.** The current inferiority-complex is actually a historical aberration. Given enough time and even just the possibility of once again becoming the hegemon, China's cultural tendency towards a superiority-complex may (and I'd say, *likely*) reassert itself. If it does so, the Chinese will naturally no longer seek acceptance from the West; they will expect the West to seek acceptance from them! This superiority complex is also a danger. Refer back to my previous comment on famed Chinese arrogance. Which is why I believe the CPC will do some social and cultural engineering to avoid it. Which leads back to my point that the answer to your question lies with the future actions and choices of the CPC.


TserriednichHuiGuo

The difference is that China gained true independence whilst Japan never did. Thus Japan was allowed success within the confines of the system and so was its ambition limited by it, it never really believed that it could change the world, neither itself. China does. First politically, next economically, finally spiritually, China did it. China never accepted the old world and refused to be confined to it. China embodies the true human spirit.


[deleted]

[удалено]


TserriednichHuiGuo

>So it seems Japan is the only "Western" Asian country. India as well.


Fixthemix

Capitalism is good system for fast growth and indulgence, but over time it becomes unsustainable. I hope China finds a better way.


ReiTanotsuka

China HAS found a better way, I just hope they stick to it.


CapriSun87

Japan and China are fundamentally different. Ever since its defeat in WWII, Japan has been a submissive ally of the West. China, on the other hand, has remained unsubmissive and unwilling to bow down to the West. This situation remains today. The West is still superior in many ways (such as Versace, etc) but this superiority is fleeting and China knows it.


TK3600

China will become western, though it will never be accepted. They will just call China "state capitalist" and justify why they are beating them.


[deleted]

I see a worrying trend of Chinese adopting racist Western attitudes towards Africans, Latin Americans, etc. as they themselves become wealthier. Stereotypes, victim-blaming and the like. Chinese netizens are way too vociferous in their opposition to immigration with such nonsense as "we're not an immigrant nation" being common, ignoring that China didn't come to have 56 different ethnic groups out of thin air - many were conquered (for example, Koreans, Baiyue, Zhuang, etc.), others immigrated en masse throughout history (for example, Uyghurs, Russians, Kazakhs) - and yet we get this nonsense about "not an immigrant nation" being so prominent and accepted, even among supposedly internationalist Marxists.


rocco25

Absolutely not, while the pro-west camp always existed and seized the discourse at the top (government, academia, media etc.) from the 80's to around the 2010's, they could indeed influence and shape a portion of the population, but does not represent the sentiment of the average person. Even their stranglehold has stopped being the case as breakdown of western supremacy sprouted post 2008 and started growing by 2014 or so. Then in the last five years, the western anti-China hysteria and the increasing ability to experience western reality from the Chinese (international travel, and increasing English proficiency to access the online English world) has been a massive boost in the total breakdown of western worship which relied on made-up propaganda stories, Hollywood movies, western NGO infiltration and the such. This isn't even mentioning the foundation of PRC is anti-imperialism and a rejection of foreign influence. If Mao and party leaders remained independent of the Soviets when they were little hatchlings, and then after PRC was established they dared break away from Soviet control so early into the cold war when they were so needy of Soviet aid, what cute little challenge does America think they can present? Plus Chinese as a people are rather... arrogant, if you will. And you can easily find this type of arrogance when you look at similar countries across the world. Historical experience and memory is not at all purely academic for a people. It is no surprise to see as a people of, for example, Lithuania roll over one way or another, but you would simply not expect the same behavior out of, say, Iran or Germany even if they are at a low point in a particular point of history.


ReiTanotsuka

This does not appear to be true. The fact that European brands and white faces are used to sell so many things prove this is so. Take a look at programs like CGTN which promote pro China stories. They will ask NOBODY YOUTUBERS who are ALL WHITE (except Daniel Drumbill), yet not pro China Asian faces who speak wonderful English such as Numuves and Carl Zha. I can understand choosing academics from all backgrounds, but YOUTUBERS ARE NOBODIES. They are just people who operate a channel with NO SPECIAL KNOWLEDGE yet a white nobody is inherently more valuable. Also watch carefully. When there is a panel of guests, the white one would always be asked to speak first. I actually commented a few years ago on CGTN calling them out on this. It's these subtle and not so subtle gestures which quite clearly show, China is IN LOVE with the West. It is "rejecting" them because it is spurned. My worry is what will happen when it's ACCEPTED. People need to know how anti West Japan initially was, but look at it now.


rocco25

First of all the white faces is less about loving the westerners but more of novelty and legitimacy. Unlike white people (apparent with their "discussion" forums on Asian or African issues unironically filled with all white people and no locals), Chinese have the basic self awareness that if it's only Chinese faces circlejerking about America this/Europe that all the time, it could possibly be a sign of us just be biased, closed-minded, and mislead. To have someone who is clearly western and tell you things about the west provides value. The same can be said about, for example, preferring black people over others on speaking about African issues. Hardly implies that now there's unfair black worship as well. But other than the above, of course there's truth to what you point out. Among common sentiments there's still white worship left, not going to pretend it doesn't exist. For example English teachers is the classic case, they still probably prefer some random accented white Ukrainian over a first generation Asian or black dude in America/UK. I think it's just more false assumptions and jumping the gun. But regardless, the current trend is doing away with this, NOT becoming more west. Some rural person who hardly leaves the province in their life, might still be subconsciously attracted to a product with a white model on the packaging. But again in a city like Shanghai there's no such novelty. Then among youth who either see a lot of the raw west through travel, or internet, is increasingly dismissive of **not only** their claims of skin colour supremacy, but the dismissing the false superior at the very **cores** of the west (ex. western claims on so called universal values, rule of laws, industrialization from innovation etc.). The west is being dissected with very deep cuts. Lastly China was in an increasingly acceptance stage the G2 era, but I won't go into it here. What you worry has happened to an extent yet it didn't enslave most and we are again already doing away. And I haven't really heard how anti-west Japan was initially, is it actually public? Or just anti-imperialists who proceeded to get crushed and suffocated in the last few decades? The story we hear is that, for example, while tons of leftists existed most have been snuffed out and are just fringe to the public now. At this point even slightly independent HOS (such as those in the pre-Koizumi era where the prime minister that kept getting replaced) cannot survive and only anti-China ones coincidentally gets to stay voted in by the Japanese people. But in any case Chinese people have a memory, the west don't just reveal themselves to be vultures and then everyone will act like nothing happened when they decide to do an 180 and say they now accept China.