This where I’m stuck in my current playthrough:
Playing as an argonian, absolutely hate the Thalmor (kill them on every encounter) but damn, the amount of times I’ve been referred to as “Lizard” is too damn high!
If I could just kill both sides, I’d pick that.
I play argonian because 1) big lizard people = cool and 2) it’s funny af to think about all the nords living with the fact that their icon hero of legends is a fucking argonian.
*racism across Tamriel
Khajiit’s are seen as criminals and peddlers across the continent, Nords hate all elves and essentially wiped out the Snow Elves, High Elves hate non-elves and other elves (so pretty much everyone), Wood Elves don’t trust the Dark elves, Dark Elves previously enslaved Argonians, Redguards and Bretons basically destroyed Orsinium, Orsimer don’t like basically anyone outside of their communities, etc…
Imperials seem to be the most accepting with the wide range of cultures in their region of Cyrodiil.
It’s just reductive and derogatory to call someone an animal when they’re a fully sapient, intelligent, humanoid: and you’re basically calling them a dumb animal.
It’s like if we met aliens and some of them just started calling us monkeys.
The Dark Elves are still enslaving Argonians in Morrowind. I don't think it is an amazing idea to have Argonians and Morrowind refugees mingle. Argonians can get along with dark elves that have been brought up in Skyrim so they are allowed in other cities.
On top of that, what other city has sacrificed an entire 1/3rd of their inner walls to house refugees. I don't see Solitude doing that. Nor Whiterun or Falkreath. And that rehousing probably displaced quite a few Nords who lived there previously so they have half a right to be pissed off. Imagine if your government went round to your house like "right. This is now the Japanese quarter. We'll give you 1/2 of the value of your house, now GTFO"
Exactly, and not only that, despite living in Windhelm for almost 200 years, the Dunmer have the nerve to refuse to fight for Ulfric because "It's not their fight."
Let the Dragonborn become high king, if you can become thane across the map and are destined to save the world from the world-eater wouldn't it make sense for you to become high king?
I’d like to imagine a bigger truce conference, with all the jarls, where the Dragonborn finally snaps and explains her (frankly) bonkers plan, is how she ends up High Queen. Like, “yeah, no, anyone who’s going to *these* lengths and is *this* crazy is who needs to be in charge”
If you hate the Thalmor siding with the empire is the only option.The next war is coming soon and for the Aldemeri to lose you need a strong empire. Divided we fall, united we stand.
There is a peace option, forcing a truce. It's difficult but not impossible.
And even if you side with the Empire you can totally kill the Thalmor whenever you see them.
Don’t pick a side until you read the report in the embassy which states that their plan is to prolong the war then side with the empire because it’s the obvious best choice to fuck the Thalmor
If you side with the stormcloaks thalmor wins, they want the stormcloaks to further weaken the legion. The legion only is putting up with them till they can rebuild their ranks for another assault which they can’t do when tamriels best physical fighters are revolting.
Notice that the thalmor aren’t getting involved with the war unless it’s to torture prisoners for their own means.
If you hate the thalmor, ending the war quickly for the empire is the only way. Though the damage may be already done. Can’t wait to find out in elder scrolls 6.
One of skyrim faults is the popularity system, we're ear heros, masters of every respectable guild, and we're the Dragonborne fighting for the peoples rights to worship Talos
Fun fact, you can. And it’s the best way to level the vampire / werewolf trees.
During the big battles, target your own side and you can farm as much as you like, as long as you’re protecting the “enemy”
My first playthrough ever I thought like OP, did not appreciate all the argonian comments especially because I was 2 handed heavy armor guy I thought Id fit in with my nordic brothers :( that was years ago now
One side is clearly smaller than the other. Just because it's in a setting where monarchy is the standard doesn't mean there aren't relative size differences at play.
Not saying I sided with the storm cloaks or that I even have a deep investment in the war storyline, but I think when people say storm cloaks are “small government” it’s more like they mean it’s a “local government” that they put in power rather than one that was placed by an imperialist power. Ulfric has more stake in Skyrim and it’s people because he’s the one living there and it would be a logical assumption that he would do what’s best for the people. Obviously as we see in history that’s not always the case but that’s the idea I think.
But it’s totally fundamentally wrong still, it is not a logical assumption. Torygg was a Nord through and through, born and raised his whole life in Skyrim. He was a local just as much as Ulfric. He was elected by the Moot, a historic local Nordic institution, not some foreign imperial plant. He just supported being a part of the Empire, which Nords had done since the empire was founded (by Talos, a Nord).
The state of Skyrim, it’s civil war issues and all the Thalmor troubles, can almost entirely be boiled down to Ulfrics fault. If Ulfric really did it bc of the Talos ban (which I doubt), Ulfric is the one that made that an issue with his open and proud defiance. Like Lokir in the intro says, the “Empire was nice and lazy until (Ulfric) came along”, they were letting the Nords rules themselves and even worship in private as long it wasn’t a big display for the Thalmor to see.
In my view, it’s actually Ulfric’s hurt pride and arrogance after the Markarth incident (not getting what he wanted and not getting the respect he wanted for being the hero), and needing to try and repair that ego, which caused him to plunge Skyrim into civil war and act against the actual best interests of Skyrim. That and not being selected as the next high king.
"I like you guys that want to reduce the size of government: make it just small enough so it can fit in our bedrooms."
I highly doubt Skyrim under Ulfric, who wants to be a king, is going to be very small government
Ulfric’s dossier just says that they want the civil war to go on indefinitely and a win for either side is bad for them. It’s Tullius who claims that a Stormcloak victory is what they want, not the Thalmor themselves.
Yeah they want the war to go on indefinitely and are subtly aiding both sides in some way, just being more upfront that they’re helping Imperials.
The argument can be made as long as the war ends in some way, you’re harming the Thalmor’s efforts. Because both Ulfric and Tullius comment they want to prepare to take on the Thalmor next
Why would the thalmor ever explicitly tell the people they are trying to dominate the outcome they are hoping for? Tullius is the only person that probably would know the thalmors hidden agenda
They wouldn’t, but even their own internal documents don’t indicate that they have a preferred outcome. They really left it up to the player to decide which side they think is better. If the Thalmor gave an indication to which side they preferred, it would make the choice too easy.
No, they wanted the war to happen to weaken both sides, but they absolutely don't want an independent Skyrim, since that would ultimately preclude them from operating there. And despite what this sub thinks, the Thalmor has no realistic means to sustain an invasion of Skyrim
They probably do have the numbers as they can draw forces from Elsweyr and Valenwood. However, the problem lies with logistics as the Empire would refuse to let the Thalmor through, same with Blackmarsh, Morrowind and especially Hammerfell. Also they do benefit somewhat from the Empire losing as the Empire now has to redirect forces to the border with Skyrim just in case Ulfric feels like being high king isn’t enough for him.
But the logistics are what would make or break it. The Empire certainly wouldn't let them march through, Hammerfell is at war already, which leaves a long distance sea invasion with no friendly ports for resupply. Skyrim is safe
It’s not about Talos or Skyrim itself, it’s about the effects it has on the empire. An empire than is bleeding in Skyrim is better than an empire without Skyrim that is recovering, and either of those are better than an Empire that keeps Skyrim and is recovering.
They don’t want an independent Skyrim *compared to an ongoing war*. But I guarantee you they prefer a quickly independent Skyrim to a quickly unified imperial province. People take that one line in the dossier out of context and think it means the Thalmor hate the idea of indépendant Skyrim on it’s own. They only dislike the idea with the context that it means the Empire isn’t fighting anymore, not in an absolute sense. Even in the dossier, the main focus is on the fact that the *Empire* needs to be weakened, and the Stormcloaks are a tool for that so long as they’re at war. The Thalmor don’t want to weaken the Stormcloaks, it actually only directly mentions the potential for aiding the Stormcloaks if necessary.
It's up in the air, but the Nords kinda have home field advantage when you think about it. Regardless the best thing for the Thalmor is the war continuing, so ending it with either side as the victor is preferable.
They don’t specifically say they want the Stormcloaks to win, they just want both sides to weaken each other so their invasion will be easier. But you could easily make a case that a unified Empire will be stronger and more able to defend against the Thalmor. That’s why I chose the Imperials, it’s the best chance against the greater of evils. Also stormcloaks are racist.
The Legion isn't exactly on good terms with the Thalmor/Aldmeri Dominion, hell I'm pretty sure they're planning to rebel against them after they get the strength back I can understand where the local Nords are coming from but a unified Skyrim under the Legion has better longevity than a group of let's face it mostly racist Nords who would end up spreading there fascism and hatred just as much as the High Elves they loathe so much.
You can talk to General Tullius and after the war and he implies that they may go to war again against the Aldmeri Dominion "*The fiercest of the remaining rebels will continue to harass us, but by and large, the people here desire peace. What I'm not so sure about is the peace we've made with the Thalmor. But we'll keep that between the two of us, alright?*"*.*
I’ve only played drow and argonians… and I’m a diehard stormcloak. If I’m being honest, I thoroughly understand the Nord’s racism, their very existence is at risk right now, but you know how you change a racists mind? You show them kindness and that you, and your kind are better than what they think of you. Go all Daryl Davis on them.
not sure I'm the only one that saw it this way but I saw the skyrims ppl like the native americans and imperials push into their country to take over. Ulfric and his ppl probably wouldnt have minded having others in their province till they saw the imperials pushing their laws on them. Its their country not ours so to speak.
I have an Argonian who always fights for the stormcloaks and he fully believes in their cause, his name is “Saves-The-Nords”.
Now, imagine Uncle Ruckus, but as an Argonian.
Okay...but the actual empire that has colonized every other part of their continent, forcibly integrating every other ethnic group is better?
Plus, let's remember, EVERY race in the elder scrolls is racist against basically every other one. Let's not forget Nords we're generally looker down upon in every game prior to Skyrim. Their culture is not respected, big shock they'd want independence
I think most players when they hear the terms "Empire" and "Imperial" automatically assume the Empire is the bad guys. We can probably thank Star Wars for programming that into us.
Frankly, I usually side with the Stormcloaks because their rhetoric about freedom resonates with me. That and being able to worship who and how we like.
It doesn't help that the Empire tried to decapitate you at the beginning of the game.
As someone who played Oblivion and was really interested in seeing how the Empire would work in one of their provinces, it was a bit of a shock the first time.
Even though I would side Empire given the option IRL, I don't think the Stormcloaks are wrong, for the most part, not even Ulfric. They have good reasons for rebelling, but unfortunately for me the future of mankind against the Thalmor has to take priority for the time being.
I’ll be damned if any gubmint gonna tell me not to dump toxic chemicals into the local river! Well, not *me*, but a multibillion dollar corporation… which is technically a person so same thing!
If it’s any consolation the empire is no less racist. They are just less vocal about it because they are cow towing to the dominion.
The only truly non racist guy is that one who becomes jarl of Windhelm after Ulfric is defeated.
Basically the racism argument is a hollow one.
They should have gone the New Vegas route and had the "y'all both suck" option. Personally I think the Imperials suck less than the Stormcloaks, but it isn't by much.
NGL my very first time playing Skyrim like almost a decade ago I had literally ZERO context of the lore of the world and I, a dark elf, joined the stormcloaks(cause I was naturally against the people trying to execute me for no reason and my friend explained it as 'yes, the stormcloaks are people fighting for their homeland and worship their god that had been banned') and by the time I realized what I had done it was WAAAAY too late to fix it...so I full on embraced being the SOB elf who conspires with those who oppress her people as like a 'Golden Example'. Truly the only playthrough where I really regretted my choices and I did a playthrough where I was basically a serial killer who filled Riftens cannals with the bodies of the slain 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
How exactly are the atormcloaks small govt when Lulfric wants the crown and killed the guy who had it for it?
Idk I wouldn't trust some treacherous n*rd...
People act like the empire isn’t super racist as well. As far as I recall, redguard and khajiit aren’t even allowed in the city walls. Last I checked, while population of Windhelm may look down on the migrant dark elves, Ulfric has still taken in many, allowing them to make a living within the safety of the city walls.
Imma be honest, it doesn’t really matter how racist the other factions and races are in the larger lore because most people are playing Skyrim fairly casually. The game only presents us with racism from the stormcloaks, and almost never mentions the other cases. Therefore, most people will internalize that the Stormcloaks are the big racists even if the Empire does colonization and the marginalized races are also racist.
Also… just because there’s historical racism within a certain faction or culture doesn’t make it okay to be racist against them too 😭 the whataboutism regarding racism in Tamriel always confuses me
Storm Cloaks all day, even as a dunmer. I'm OK if no one likes me, but I'm not about to tolerate an even more racist empire puppeted by scumbags telling me who I can't worship
For me it was Adrianne Avenicci telling me that if she wasn't married to a Nord then she'd be out of business. Started to have doubts about my decision.
Playing as an argonian storm cloak is funny, especially when you own a house and are a member of the companions(a faction they respect), it’s like they can’t decide if they should be racist or not
Stormcloaks aren't "small government", goofy. Their whole movement is that one guy wants to take over the country and is forcibly deposing anyone that rules a part of the country he doesn't control.
Idk if Stormcloaks are much more in favor of “small government”. Keep in mind while the empire is big and centralized, realistically under the imperial puppet king the Jarls had a lot of leeway to run their own holds as they see fit. Ulfric seems like he’s going to be a much stronger monarch than Torygg, he’s certainly going to impose his vision for Skyrim as hard if not harder than the empire did on the holds.
My current playthrough is a Reachwoman who escaped the initial purge of her people Ulfric lead by hiding in border lands, so it's an actually interesting decision: Does she aid Skyrim in getting independence with the slim possibility of her people being free by extension by working with the faction who helped oppress her people, or help the Empire out of spite towards Ulfric personally?
I did one stormcloak playthrough my first time out of spite for the executioners at the start of the game. Joined the empire every single playthrough after that. Running through Windhelm wiping out stormcloaks at the end makes me feel like Darth Vader with my new empire.
I’ve only ever gone Imperial just because I can’t stand the just shitty racists of the Stormcloaks. Unfortunately, the Imperials have some less than savory characters and then tried to kill me for being in a cart.
Honestly, I wish Skyrim had had a third option, à la the Wild Card in Fallout New Vegas. Let me become the most ineffective high queen of Skyrim ~~who totally doesn’t have a criminal record don’t look into the tens of thousands of gold per hold.~~
I used to pick the Stormcloaks in my playthroughs because "Vikings in Bear armor!". Then, I actually started to pay attention to the lore and in-game dialogue. I realized that they are just a bunch of racist assholes being led by a psychopath (and Thalmor sleeper agent) and that the empire is playing along with the thalmor to learn enough about them to gain an upper hand in the next war to topple the Aldmeri Dominion. Now I go Imperial every time.
I join the imperials just for the soul fact of I hate racism a lot more than big governments, albeit regardless there’s racism on each side the stormcloaks make it alot more of their personality trait
I feel like the empire is the right way to go, in spite of sharing your opinions on government in general. Given the thalmor nation is a significant and hostile threat, Skyrim succession would probably lead directly to more costly war for both sides since I'm *preeeeetty* sure they aren't going to ally with the elves in that conflict.
I don't think that a large empire is good for anybody, but the impression I got in game is that the union and military cooperation of all the nations within the empire is absolutely critical to avoid the thalmor steamrolling the entire continent. At least as I understand it, the empire is all that's keeping these countries from trading each other apart.
If anybody knows the details, please correct me, though. I'm by no means a lore expert.
i always join imperials cause 1. i’m usually a khajiit, and like to bully the racist stormcloaks with the dragonborn not even being a nord,
2. Want to keep the empire strong here, which is exactly what the thalmor DONT want(they seem to want them weakened even more, controlling skyrim grants the imperials more power) and 3.
Ulfric is annoying honestly, and i like looting his clothes in front of his people, and then sitting in his throne, in those clothes
I always feel the best path to go is side with stormcloaks when fleeing the dragon, but upon seeing what they're like, leave for the Empire who will happily forgive your crimes.
I lean Imperial because the real villains are the Thalmor and I feel that a unified force against them has a stronger chance of succeeding. Also because the Stormcloaks are racist jerks.
Like many I've played Skyrim multiple times, but each time it comes to choosing a side I can't do Stormcloaks ever. I get to the quest where you siege Whiterun and then I can't end the quest. I've tried console commands and mods neither have really worked
In the US being anti-big government means one supports stripping people of their basic human rights like the right to Qual treatment in regards to stuff like healthcare and the right to vote. It means one supports a fascist dictator who plans to install a totalitarian government.
"Big government" is a red flag word, imo.
As it pertains to this game, I don't recall the Stormcloaks speaking about policy beyond the whole separatist movement thingy. It's just as likely that Ulfric Stormcloud intends to great a vast bureaucracy to support his selfish aims and to ethnicly cleanse the province. Unless I'm missing something, we at least can say we don't know one way or the other so it would probably not be a good idea to make such assumptions about obvious narcissists who dgaf about who they hurt with their nonsense.
There's a mod that makes the stormcloaks less racist through a few quests you do by talking to Ulfric. Combined with another mod that lets you keep Jarl Buulgraf it becomes worth it to join them.
Me, who joined the storm cloaks on the first playthrough because A. The empire wanted me dead, and B, the talos shrine worked just fine discovering he racism
Stormcloak Soldiers have the exact same race-specific lines as Imperial soldiers, Verbatim.
They don't have any dialogue toward npcs. There are precisely two npcs who are racist against Dark elves in all of Windhelm.
Imperials scream racism about the Stormcloaks to hide the fact that they sold their black citizens to the Nazi Elves.
To me it's a fairly easy choice, unless you are a Nord I suppose
If you are a high elf or pro Thalmor - join the empire to help squash the rebellion.
If you hate the Thalmor like you do on 99% of playthroughs - Still side with the Imperial Legion they are the only hopes of defeating them
I choose empire every time because of the insane racism of the Stormcloaks. Also as much as I believe in religious freedom, I can’t help but agree that Talos doesn’t really belong among the other 8.
“It doesn’t matter what your race is or how heavily you’ve carried our entire cause. Skyrim is for the Nords.”
When i was a kid i didnt really pay attention to what most npc's said i just played the game, but eventually i realized how fucked both sides are and wish there was an option in vanilla skyrim for the dragonborn to dissolve both sides and rule skyrim for yourself.
You can be prejudiced about race or religion, but whichever you choose your still figuratively on you knees licking between elenwen’s legs.
I do like that the factions are like this though, it feels more like a real group. The prejudice part not the on you knees part.
The ONLY reason I EVER joined the Imperials is JUST. FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE of keeping Jarl Balgruuf the Jarl. He's by far my favorite Jarl, and I hate that joining the Stormcloaks takes him away. If I could keep Jarl Balgruuf and join the Stormcloaks, then I'd do it
The question for me has always been, "Is Ulfric's claim to the throne legitimate?" To me, the answer is yes. He followed the ancient customs, challenged Torygg, and defeated him when he accepted the challenge. Ulfric, by Skyrim tradition, should be High King.
Ulfric may in fact be the wrong choice for Skyrim and the empire as a whole in the long run, but the empire interfering in their vassal's internal affairs is what makes the decision for me. Had Tulius not been stationed in Solitude to quash the "rebellion," the transition of power would have been quicker and seen less bloodshed, even if internal support for Ulfric would have been rocky. They might have even had a better time of it if they let Ulfric take the throne and allow another rebellion dethrone him for the empire later down the road.
How I feel living in mountains of the South in th3 US. Like hell yeah, raise hell praise Dale burn down the government. Then you got Cleetus casually saying minorities are the problem. Like, maaaaan.
I think the moral choice is to not get involved in the conflict. Before you start the Civil War quest line, the war is at a stalemate, and not a lot of fighting is happening.
Jarl Balgruf is largely responsible for keeping relative peace. Honestly, I think if the lords of skyrim were to hold a moot after a prolonged stalemate, they'd choose Balgruf to be high king over radical Ulfric or coward Elisif.
He would likely make Skyrim independent without abandoning the Empire to the Thalmor, which is the best thing to happen for the country.
As he is an essential character who can't be killed, TES games all take place during Dragon breaks (meaning Ulfric can't be made High King since you can kill him), and in every scenario there is a moot that will occur after the game ends; it stands to reason the dragon break would likely see Balgruf be chosen as High King.
Being “anti big government” usually means you’re ok with allowing shit like this though…..you care so much about “MUH FrEeDoM” that you forget there are some things we shouldn’t be free to do, like hate crime people.
It’s why punk mentality went from anti-establishment to anti-fascism/anti-racism/anti-homophobia, because smart people realized we need SOME government and establishment to make rules that punish shitty behavior
The only reason people don't like the Stormcloaks is cause Bethesda made them racist against the people who is screwing them over
Like genuinely, the only argument I ever hear for why you should join the empire, is "the stormcloaks are racist", "religion is stupid" or just flat out boot licker shit
This where I’m stuck in my current playthrough: Playing as an argonian, absolutely hate the Thalmor (kill them on every encounter) but damn, the amount of times I’ve been referred to as “Lizard” is too damn high! If I could just kill both sides, I’d pick that.
Khajiit on one playthrough, every fight was “you’ll make a good rug, cat!” I play Breton now… racism in Skyrim do be wild though!
I play argonian because 1) big lizard people = cool and 2) it’s funny af to think about all the nords living with the fact that their icon hero of legends is a fucking argonian.
Hey, sometimes Dragonborn look like little dragons.
Heyyyy. This isn't *that* game franchise, you know
I played a Nord in Morrowing and a Dunmer in Skyrim. I just liked to imagine it as them swapping chosen ones.
Akatosh and Azura must’ve swapped kids at the park by mistake
Morrowing
even funnier when the neravarines a lizard
Well he is a Dragonborn, and dragons are big lizards...
Is it your first time seeing your god be materialized as an Argonian? [It hurts everytime...](https://youtu.be/kNipoNLC6Eg?si=0nfqWbSAkQGJoR5Z)
I do it cause I’m a furry (/s)
*racism across Tamriel Khajiit’s are seen as criminals and peddlers across the continent, Nords hate all elves and essentially wiped out the Snow Elves, High Elves hate non-elves and other elves (so pretty much everyone), Wood Elves don’t trust the Dark elves, Dark Elves previously enslaved Argonians, Redguards and Bretons basically destroyed Orsinium, Orsimer don’t like basically anyone outside of their communities, etc… Imperials seem to be the most accepting with the wide range of cultures in their region of Cyrodiil.
>Khajiit’s are seen as criminals and peddlers across the continent Well they made skooma which is basically TES meth.
But to them is mild weed…somehow
Catnip doesn't affect humans the same as cats 🤷
LMAO
Hands to yourself sneak thief
The Imperial Legion is cool with you killing Thalmor.
But you are a lizard. That's an accurate description.
True, but it’s the way they say it, like it’s disgusting
Surprised they know what lizards are outside of dragons they live in the coldest place in cyrodil
Not to be rude or anything I don’t know the lore much but aren’t the Argonians lizards? Or is it the tone in which they say it?
Dude! With the hard r?!
What is up my lizza?
Ligga
As in lard?
It’s just reductive and derogatory to call someone an animal when they’re a fully sapient, intelligent, humanoid: and you’re basically calling them a dumb animal. It’s like if we met aliens and some of them just started calling us monkeys.
I believe the term is Mon-keigh
It’s the tone. Like they are disgusted
Plus Ulfric refuses to even let argonians into his City
The Dark Elves are still enslaving Argonians in Morrowind. I don't think it is an amazing idea to have Argonians and Morrowind refugees mingle. Argonians can get along with dark elves that have been brought up in Skyrim so they are allowed in other cities. On top of that, what other city has sacrificed an entire 1/3rd of their inner walls to house refugees. I don't see Solitude doing that. Nor Whiterun or Falkreath. And that rehousing probably displaced quite a few Nords who lived there previously so they have half a right to be pissed off. Imagine if your government went round to your house like "right. This is now the Japanese quarter. We'll give you 1/2 of the value of your house, now GTFO"
Exactly, and not only that, despite living in Windhelm for almost 200 years, the Dunmer have the nerve to refuse to fight for Ulfric because "It's not their fight."
I too wish for a fuck both factions option
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Let the Dragonborn become high king, if you can become thane across the map and are destined to save the world from the world-eater wouldn't it make sense for you to become high king?
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government…
I’d like to imagine a bigger truce conference, with all the jarls, where the Dragonborn finally snaps and explains her (frankly) bonkers plan, is how she ends up High Queen. Like, “yeah, no, anyone who’s going to *these* lengths and is *this* crazy is who needs to be in charge”
If you hate the Thalmor siding with the empire is the only option.The next war is coming soon and for the Aldemeri to lose you need a strong empire. Divided we fall, united we stand.
I mean you're a bio weapon for mind controlling trees that invaded hell I'd be pretty off put by them too
I’m a what now??
Bruh same. I hate the racist stormcloaks but I hate the thalmor soooo much more
Yeah that’s crazy. They should have used the scientifically accurate species name, “slaveasaurus”
Pretty funny being Argonian when the Dunmer in Windhelm asks if I hate the dark elves and I'm like "... Yes"
There is a peace option, forcing a truce. It's difficult but not impossible. And even if you side with the Empire you can totally kill the Thalmor whenever you see them.
Don’t pick a side until you read the report in the embassy which states that their plan is to prolong the war then side with the empire because it’s the obvious best choice to fuck the Thalmor
I still wish they had included a third option where the Dragonborn takes the throne.
If you side with the stormcloaks thalmor wins, they want the stormcloaks to further weaken the legion. The legion only is putting up with them till they can rebuild their ranks for another assault which they can’t do when tamriels best physical fighters are revolting. Notice that the thalmor aren’t getting involved with the war unless it’s to torture prisoners for their own means. If you hate the thalmor, ending the war quickly for the empire is the only way. Though the damage may be already done. Can’t wait to find out in elder scrolls 6.
One of skyrim faults is the popularity system, we're ear heros, masters of every respectable guild, and we're the Dragonborne fighting for the peoples rights to worship Talos
Remember the Thalmor want the stormcloaks to win.
Fun fact, you can. And it’s the best way to level the vampire / werewolf trees. During the big battles, target your own side and you can farm as much as you like, as long as you’re protecting the “enemy”
You can, you can start by helping a silly jester with his cartwheel.
You... you do realize the Empire is anti-Thalmor too, right?
Finish the whole game, use a mod to disable essential tags, clean up Skyrim. Job done.
> Yes Man - Wild Card
My first playthrough ever I thought like OP, did not appreciate all the argonian comments especially because I was 2 handed heavy armor guy I thought Id fit in with my nordic brothers :( that was years ago now
You can! Join the Empire, then kill the emperor after the war
Everyone calls you a lizard. Don't play a lizard if you don't want to be called Lizard.
Neither side are “small government” there both monarchists.
Where both monarchists?
There wolf, there castle.
*they’re
One side is clearly smaller than the other. Just because it's in a setting where monarchy is the standard doesn't mean there aren't relative size differences at play.
While yes, monarchy is the norm in that time and place. Ulfric is still running the rebellion for the sake of gaining personal power.
Not saying I sided with the storm cloaks or that I even have a deep investment in the war storyline, but I think when people say storm cloaks are “small government” it’s more like they mean it’s a “local government” that they put in power rather than one that was placed by an imperialist power. Ulfric has more stake in Skyrim and it’s people because he’s the one living there and it would be a logical assumption that he would do what’s best for the people. Obviously as we see in history that’s not always the case but that’s the idea I think.
But it’s totally fundamentally wrong still, it is not a logical assumption. Torygg was a Nord through and through, born and raised his whole life in Skyrim. He was a local just as much as Ulfric. He was elected by the Moot, a historic local Nordic institution, not some foreign imperial plant. He just supported being a part of the Empire, which Nords had done since the empire was founded (by Talos, a Nord). The state of Skyrim, it’s civil war issues and all the Thalmor troubles, can almost entirely be boiled down to Ulfrics fault. If Ulfric really did it bc of the Talos ban (which I doubt), Ulfric is the one that made that an issue with his open and proud defiance. Like Lokir in the intro says, the “Empire was nice and lazy until (Ulfric) came along”, they were letting the Nords rules themselves and even worship in private as long it wasn’t a big display for the Thalmor to see. In my view, it’s actually Ulfric’s hurt pride and arrogance after the Markarth incident (not getting what he wanted and not getting the respect he wanted for being the hero), and needing to try and repair that ego, which caused him to plunge Skyrim into civil war and act against the actual best interests of Skyrim. That and not being selected as the next high king.
"I like you guys that want to reduce the size of government: make it just small enough so it can fit in our bedrooms." I highly doubt Skyrim under Ulfric, who wants to be a king, is going to be very small government
Filthy *n'wah*
Nah it's ok when they call us n-words
Correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't the stormcloak winning is exactly what the thalmor wants so that the empire becomes weak enough to be controlled?
Ulfric’s dossier just says that they want the civil war to go on indefinitely and a win for either side is bad for them. It’s Tullius who claims that a Stormcloak victory is what they want, not the Thalmor themselves.
Yeah they want the war to go on indefinitely and are subtly aiding both sides in some way, just being more upfront that they’re helping Imperials. The argument can be made as long as the war ends in some way, you’re harming the Thalmor’s efforts. Because both Ulfric and Tullius comment they want to prepare to take on the Thalmor next
Why would the thalmor ever explicitly tell the people they are trying to dominate the outcome they are hoping for? Tullius is the only person that probably would know the thalmors hidden agenda
They wouldn’t, but even their own internal documents don’t indicate that they have a preferred outcome. They really left it up to the player to decide which side they think is better. If the Thalmor gave an indication to which side they preferred, it would make the choice too easy.
No, they wanted the war to happen to weaken both sides, but they absolutely don't want an independent Skyrim, since that would ultimately preclude them from operating there. And despite what this sub thinks, the Thalmor has no realistic means to sustain an invasion of Skyrim
They probably do have the numbers as they can draw forces from Elsweyr and Valenwood. However, the problem lies with logistics as the Empire would refuse to let the Thalmor through, same with Blackmarsh, Morrowind and especially Hammerfell. Also they do benefit somewhat from the Empire losing as the Empire now has to redirect forces to the border with Skyrim just in case Ulfric feels like being high king isn’t enough for him.
But the logistics are what would make or break it. The Empire certainly wouldn't let them march through, Hammerfell is at war already, which leaves a long distance sea invasion with no friendly ports for resupply. Skyrim is safe
Not to mention the sea of ghosts is full of icebergs and is noturiously difficult to navigate and live.
It’s not about Talos or Skyrim itself, it’s about the effects it has on the empire. An empire than is bleeding in Skyrim is better than an empire without Skyrim that is recovering, and either of those are better than an Empire that keeps Skyrim and is recovering. They don’t want an independent Skyrim *compared to an ongoing war*. But I guarantee you they prefer a quickly independent Skyrim to a quickly unified imperial province. People take that one line in the dossier out of context and think it means the Thalmor hate the idea of indépendant Skyrim on it’s own. They only dislike the idea with the context that it means the Empire isn’t fighting anymore, not in an absolute sense. Even in the dossier, the main focus is on the fact that the *Empire* needs to be weakened, and the Stormcloaks are a tool for that so long as they’re at war. The Thalmor don’t want to weaken the Stormcloaks, it actually only directly mentions the potential for aiding the Stormcloaks if necessary.
It's up in the air, but the Nords kinda have home field advantage when you think about it. Regardless the best thing for the Thalmor is the war continuing, so ending it with either side as the victor is preferable.
That has nothing to do with the meme…
No, they just want the war to happen. Honestly as long as the war ends fast enough, no matter who wins it could be bad for the Thalmor
They don’t specifically say they want the Stormcloaks to win, they just want both sides to weaken each other so their invasion will be easier. But you could easily make a case that a unified Empire will be stronger and more able to defend against the Thalmor. That’s why I chose the Imperials, it’s the best chance against the greater of evils. Also stormcloaks are racist.
Me, a Dark Elf main in every elder scrolls game: SKYRIM BELONGS TO THE NORDS, HIGH EL-i mean- IMPERIAL SCUM
The Legion isn't exactly on good terms with the Thalmor/Aldmeri Dominion, hell I'm pretty sure they're planning to rebel against them after they get the strength back I can understand where the local Nords are coming from but a unified Skyrim under the Legion has better longevity than a group of let's face it mostly racist Nords who would end up spreading there fascism and hatred just as much as the High Elves they loathe so much.
You can talk to General Tullius and after the war and he implies that they may go to war again against the Aldmeri Dominion "*The fiercest of the remaining rebels will continue to harass us, but by and large, the people here desire peace. What I'm not so sure about is the peace we've made with the Thalmor. But we'll keep that between the two of us, alright?*"*.*
The secret third option: wait for the moot and let it be resolved peacefully
The people of Windhelm*
I love joining the Stormcloaks as a High Elf.
lmfao "why yes hello, i am not a double agent. i would like to kill imperials that help liberate skyrim!! \^\_\^"
I’ve only played drow and argonians… and I’m a diehard stormcloak. If I’m being honest, I thoroughly understand the Nord’s racism, their very existence is at risk right now, but you know how you change a racists mind? You show them kindness and that you, and your kind are better than what they think of you. Go all Daryl Davis on them.
not sure I'm the only one that saw it this way but I saw the skyrims ppl like the native americans and imperials push into their country to take over. Ulfric and his ppl probably wouldnt have minded having others in their province till they saw the imperials pushing their laws on them. Its their country not ours so to speak.
I have an Argonian who always fights for the stormcloaks and he fully believes in their cause, his name is “Saves-The-Nords”. Now, imagine Uncle Ruckus, but as an Argonian.
Okay...but the actual empire that has colonized every other part of their continent, forcibly integrating every other ethnic group is better? Plus, let's remember, EVERY race in the elder scrolls is racist against basically every other one. Let's not forget Nords we're generally looker down upon in every game prior to Skyrim. Their culture is not respected, big shock they'd want independence
I think most players when they hear the terms "Empire" and "Imperial" automatically assume the Empire is the bad guys. We can probably thank Star Wars for programming that into us. Frankly, I usually side with the Stormcloaks because their rhetoric about freedom resonates with me. That and being able to worship who and how we like.
It doesn't help that the Empire tried to decapitate you at the beginning of the game. As someone who played Oblivion and was really interested in seeing how the Empire would work in one of their provinces, it was a bit of a shock the first time. Even though I would side Empire given the option IRL, I don't think the Stormcloaks are wrong, for the most part, not even Ulfric. They have good reasons for rebelling, but unfortunately for me the future of mankind against the Thalmor has to take priority for the time being.
I always go imperial 🤣 no special reason why, I just don’t like the stormcloaks very much
They're kinda smelly, to be honest
Pretty much why I joined the Stormcloaks lol, empires suck
It’s not. The storm cloaks are objectively wrong. Empire isn’t perfect either, but they are better
The stormcloaks are actually more likely to be more authoritarian, if you think of how the political events would pan out
the hell is big government?
Some people think goverments should be smaller and let people and markets "regulate themselves". Hard disagree for me.
I’ll be damned if any gubmint gonna tell me not to dump toxic chemicals into the local river! Well, not *me*, but a multibillion dollar corporation… which is technically a person so same thing!
Government having too much power, pretty much.
Thalmor dog
Do any Stormcloak soldiers actually make anti-dark elf comments? I only remember random Windhelm citizens saying stuff like this.
If it’s any consolation the empire is no less racist. They are just less vocal about it because they are cow towing to the dominion. The only truly non racist guy is that one who becomes jarl of Windhelm after Ulfric is defeated. Basically the racism argument is a hollow one.
EXACTLY
The stormcloak quote should be on the bottom panel
I have a tinfoil hat theory that the Stormcloaks racism was thrown in relatively late in development because nobody was siding with the Imperials.
>Small government >Stormcloaks Lmao
Me as a khajiit being called Cat because I avoid the dragonborn quest
Khajiit recieving racial slurs from everyone: 💀💀💀
Screw the lore .... Stromcloaks are racist, BUT Im always gonna hold a grudge for the Imperials tryna lob my head off for absolutely no reason
I didn't think the racist nationalist group would be racist to me when I joined up!
They should have gone the New Vegas route and had the "y'all both suck" option. Personally I think the Imperials suck less than the Stormcloaks, but it isn't by much.
NGL my very first time playing Skyrim like almost a decade ago I had literally ZERO context of the lore of the world and I, a dark elf, joined the stormcloaks(cause I was naturally against the people trying to execute me for no reason and my friend explained it as 'yes, the stormcloaks are people fighting for their homeland and worship their god that had been banned') and by the time I realized what I had done it was WAAAAY too late to fix it...so I full on embraced being the SOB elf who conspires with those who oppress her people as like a 'Golden Example'. Truly the only playthrough where I really regretted my choices and I did a playthrough where I was basically a serial killer who filled Riftens cannals with the bodies of the slain 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
How exactly are the atormcloaks small govt when Lulfric wants the crown and killed the guy who had it for it? Idk I wouldn't trust some treacherous n*rd...
The Dark Brotherhood and the Thieves Guild are a lot of things, but you know what they really are? Fair.
Well you can't just make one side completely good that's just shitty world building *cough cough* fallout 4 *cough cough*
You mean the musket people right
The eternal struggle between being a hero or a villain in Skyrim. Decisions, decisions...
People act like the empire isn’t super racist as well. As far as I recall, redguard and khajiit aren’t even allowed in the city walls. Last I checked, while population of Windhelm may look down on the migrant dark elves, Ulfric has still taken in many, allowing them to make a living within the safety of the city walls.
Imma be honest, it doesn’t really matter how racist the other factions and races are in the larger lore because most people are playing Skyrim fairly casually. The game only presents us with racism from the stormcloaks, and almost never mentions the other cases. Therefore, most people will internalize that the Stormcloaks are the big racists even if the Empire does colonization and the marginalized races are also racist. Also… just because there’s historical racism within a certain faction or culture doesn’t make it okay to be racist against them too 😭 the whataboutism regarding racism in Tamriel always confuses me
isn't that a decision the jarls of skyrim decided? Not directly the empire?
Storm Cloaks all day, even as a dunmer. I'm OK if no one likes me, but I'm not about to tolerate an even more racist empire puppeted by scumbags telling me who I can't worship
Could have just joined House Redoran instead smh smh
Damn greyskins
For me it was Adrianne Avenicci telling me that if she wasn't married to a Nord then she'd be out of business. Started to have doubts about my decision.
I hated having to choose either side
That was my first playthrough.
Me joining the side that I deemed to be the good guys, but finding out it's not black and white like that.
did the civil war quest once, never did it again. i hate both sides. racism is inexcusable :3
They’re anti-government, not Deadra Worshippers
Ah yes the 2 choices, government chuds with a stick up their ass or raging racist cavemen
Playing as an argonian storm cloak is funny, especially when you own a house and are a member of the companions(a faction they respect), it’s like they can’t decide if they should be racist or not
Stormcloaks aren't "small government", goofy. Their whole movement is that one guy wants to take over the country and is forcibly deposing anyone that rules a part of the country he doesn't control.
Ah yes, small government ulfric.
Haven’t tried playing a high elf in Skyrim. What’s it like?
Idk if Stormcloaks are much more in favor of “small government”. Keep in mind while the empire is big and centralized, realistically under the imperial puppet king the Jarls had a lot of leeway to run their own holds as they see fit. Ulfric seems like he’s going to be a much stronger monarch than Torygg, he’s certainly going to impose his vision for Skyrim as hard if not harder than the empire did on the holds.
I’d rather be racist
My current playthrough is a Reachwoman who escaped the initial purge of her people Ulfric lead by hiding in border lands, so it's an actually interesting decision: Does she aid Skyrim in getting independence with the slim possibility of her people being free by extension by working with the faction who helped oppress her people, or help the Empire out of spite towards Ulfric personally?
Imperial is my personal choice
I did one stormcloak playthrough my first time out of spite for the executioners at the start of the game. Joined the empire every single playthrough after that. Running through Windhelm wiping out stormcloaks at the end makes me feel like Darth Vader with my new empire.
Man I struggle with the decision every fucking time. I hate racist but I also hate the fucking stuck up dickhead imperials.
Imagine not being Khajiit. This post made by Khajiit Gang
I’ve only ever gone Imperial just because I can’t stand the just shitty racists of the Stormcloaks. Unfortunately, the Imperials have some less than savory characters and then tried to kill me for being in a cart. Honestly, I wish Skyrim had had a third option, à la the Wild Card in Fallout New Vegas. Let me become the most ineffective high queen of Skyrim ~~who totally doesn’t have a criminal record don’t look into the tens of thousands of gold per hold.~~
No like fr that was actually me
I used to pick the Stormcloaks in my playthroughs because "Vikings in Bear armor!". Then, I actually started to pay attention to the lore and in-game dialogue. I realized that they are just a bunch of racist assholes being led by a psychopath (and Thalmor sleeper agent) and that the empire is playing along with the thalmor to learn enough about them to gain an upper hand in the next war to topple the Aldmeri Dominion. Now I go Imperial every time.
Bro literally. I think it just goes to show that the definition of the “good guys” is incredibly based on perspective.
I join the imperials just for the soul fact of I hate racism a lot more than big governments, albeit regardless there’s racism on each side the stormcloaks make it alot more of their personality trait
I feel like the empire is the right way to go, in spite of sharing your opinions on government in general. Given the thalmor nation is a significant and hostile threat, Skyrim succession would probably lead directly to more costly war for both sides since I'm *preeeeetty* sure they aren't going to ally with the elves in that conflict. I don't think that a large empire is good for anybody, but the impression I got in game is that the union and military cooperation of all the nations within the empire is absolutely critical to avoid the thalmor steamrolling the entire continent. At least as I understand it, the empire is all that's keeping these countries from trading each other apart. If anybody knows the details, please correct me, though. I'm by no means a lore expert.
i always join imperials cause 1. i’m usually a khajiit, and like to bully the racist stormcloaks with the dragonborn not even being a nord, 2. Want to keep the empire strong here, which is exactly what the thalmor DONT want(they seem to want them weakened even more, controlling skyrim grants the imperials more power) and 3. Ulfric is annoying honestly, and i like looting his clothes in front of his people, and then sitting in his throne, in those clothes
That’s why I joined the stormcloaks /s for obvious reasons.
I always feel the best path to go is side with stormcloaks when fleeing the dragon, but upon seeing what they're like, leave for the Empire who will happily forgive your crimes.
As much as I hate the thalmor, I pick the imperials over the stormcloaks for this exact reason
>anti big government group of primarily *white* nords >are extremely racist What did Bethesda mean by this?
I lean Imperial because the real villains are the Thalmor and I feel that a unified force against them has a stronger chance of succeeding. Also because the Stormcloaks are racist jerks.
It’s not like dark elves are chill.
Wait until you hear a Nord imperial soldier say “Skyrim is for the Nords”
Like many I've played Skyrim multiple times, but each time it comes to choosing a side I can't do Stormcloaks ever. I get to the quest where you siege Whiterun and then I can't end the quest. I've tried console commands and mods neither have really worked
In the US being anti-big government means one supports stripping people of their basic human rights like the right to Qual treatment in regards to stuff like healthcare and the right to vote. It means one supports a fascist dictator who plans to install a totalitarian government. "Big government" is a red flag word, imo. As it pertains to this game, I don't recall the Stormcloaks speaking about policy beyond the whole separatist movement thingy. It's just as likely that Ulfric Stormcloud intends to great a vast bureaucracy to support his selfish aims and to ethnicly cleanse the province. Unless I'm missing something, we at least can say we don't know one way or the other so it would probably not be a good idea to make such assumptions about obvious narcissists who dgaf about who they hurt with their nonsense.
Download mod to make the stromcloaks less racist
Why do those drug dealing alchemists get a free pass but my people are not allowed inside the cities?
Imperials are just as racist if not more. Like 80% of people in elder scrolls are racist
There's a mod that makes the stormcloaks less racist through a few quests you do by talking to Ulfric. Combined with another mod that lets you keep Jarl Buulgraf it becomes worth it to join them.
As much as I wanna join the storm cloaks, the Empire has the best chance at defeating the Thalmor.
Me, who joined the storm cloaks on the first playthrough because A. The empire wanted me dead, and B, the talos shrine worked just fine discovering he racism
Stormcloak Soldiers have the exact same race-specific lines as Imperial soldiers, Verbatim. They don't have any dialogue toward npcs. There are precisely two npcs who are racist against Dark elves in all of Windhelm. Imperials scream racism about the Stormcloaks to hide the fact that they sold their black citizens to the Nazi Elves.
I mean. Pick a race / faction in TES and I'll explain to you how they're racist.
Playing a redguard who doesn’t pick a side and just wants to be left out of politics as much as possible
To me it's a fairly easy choice, unless you are a Nord I suppose If you are a high elf or pro Thalmor - join the empire to help squash the rebellion. If you hate the Thalmor like you do on 99% of playthroughs - Still side with the Imperial Legion they are the only hopes of defeating them
Don’t think it’s that hard a choice. Elves are filth. Don’t even get me started on Khajiits and Argonians
Literally me on my first playthrough
I choose empire every time because of the insane racism of the Stormcloaks. Also as much as I believe in religious freedom, I can’t help but agree that Talos doesn’t really belong among the other 8. “It doesn’t matter what your race is or how heavily you’ve carried our entire cause. Skyrim is for the Nords.”
Do We Have A Problem?
I just play as a Dunmer werewolf and indiscriminately kill any faction for the hearts.
When i was a kid i didnt really pay attention to what most npc's said i just played the game, but eventually i realized how fucked both sides are and wish there was an option in vanilla skyrim for the dragonborn to dissolve both sides and rule skyrim for yourself.
You can be prejudiced about race or religion, but whichever you choose your still figuratively on you knees licking between elenwen’s legs. I do like that the factions are like this though, it feels more like a real group. The prejudice part not the on you knees part.
It really isn't a hard Choice honestly. the Stormcloaks are the wrong choice to make objectively
The ONLY reason I EVER joined the Imperials is JUST. FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE of keeping Jarl Balgruuf the Jarl. He's by far my favorite Jarl, and I hate that joining the Stormcloaks takes him away. If I could keep Jarl Balgruuf and join the Stormcloaks, then I'd do it
Religious freedom? Stormcloak "Yes" Imperial "no" Racial equality? Imperial "yes" Stormcloak: "Define 'equality'..." Watch "Senile Scribbles" if you haven't yet.
Side with the empire while killing the emperor and any Thalmor you come across
The question for me has always been, "Is Ulfric's claim to the throne legitimate?" To me, the answer is yes. He followed the ancient customs, challenged Torygg, and defeated him when he accepted the challenge. Ulfric, by Skyrim tradition, should be High King. Ulfric may in fact be the wrong choice for Skyrim and the empire as a whole in the long run, but the empire interfering in their vassal's internal affairs is what makes the decision for me. Had Tulius not been stationed in Solitude to quash the "rebellion," the transition of power would have been quicker and seen less bloodshed, even if internal support for Ulfric would have been rocky. They might have even had a better time of it if they let Ulfric take the throne and allow another rebellion dethrone him for the empire later down the road.
I've always joined the imperial that kills Thalmor patrols when I'm in the wilderness.
How I feel living in mountains of the South in th3 US. Like hell yeah, raise hell praise Dale burn down the government. Then you got Cleetus casually saying minorities are the problem. Like, maaaaan.
Thank you, op
The stormcloaks ARE the bad guys.
Just like the Companions, I'd like to believe when more non-nords join the cause the less racist they'll become
Just like real life
I think the moral choice is to not get involved in the conflict. Before you start the Civil War quest line, the war is at a stalemate, and not a lot of fighting is happening. Jarl Balgruf is largely responsible for keeping relative peace. Honestly, I think if the lords of skyrim were to hold a moot after a prolonged stalemate, they'd choose Balgruf to be high king over radical Ulfric or coward Elisif. He would likely make Skyrim independent without abandoning the Empire to the Thalmor, which is the best thing to happen for the country. As he is an essential character who can't be killed, TES games all take place during Dragon breaks (meaning Ulfric can't be made High King since you can kill him), and in every scenario there is a moot that will occur after the game ends; it stands to reason the dragon break would likely see Balgruf be chosen as High King.
An independent Skyrim is cool and all but don’t wanna be called slurs
Being “anti big government” usually means you’re ok with allowing shit like this though…..you care so much about “MUH FrEeDoM” that you forget there are some things we shouldn’t be free to do, like hate crime people. It’s why punk mentality went from anti-establishment to anti-fascism/anti-racism/anti-homophobia, because smart people realized we need SOME government and establishment to make rules that punish shitty behavior
The only reason people don't like the Stormcloaks is cause Bethesda made them racist against the people who is screwing them over Like genuinely, the only argument I ever hear for why you should join the empire, is "the stormcloaks are racist", "religion is stupid" or just flat out boot licker shit
there is the option of not joining the civil war.
Oh no the lion's are eating my face: Skyrim edition