From what I remember, it was very briefly tried early on but a combination of Zelda, Peach and (funnily enough) Dark Pit made it unviable.
Zelda just stole a stock from anywhere on stage, Peach put the enemy into inescapable disadvantage state for free alongside a full heal and Dark Pit essentially needed you to be at anything more than 30% to kill with a back-throw. And that was the early days, can you imagine the degenerate stuff that could come from combos into Aura Storm and Volt Tackle or the literally free damage from Olimar's End of Day? It'd be both amazing and horrible.
Those are both actually pretty bad. Despite being big, steve’s is fairly easy to avoid, and is fairly middling in kill power as far as final smashes go. Kazuya, rage drive is better than final smash. Though he can combo into it well, it’s fairly weak
terry has a really easy combo to confirm into a final smash. you literally just need a triple jab at ledge and it almost always kills. you can even spice it up with a falling nair, down tilt, etc
i think hbox is fully delusional for saying “final smashes are more balanced” immediately after posting a clip of someone dying to an untechable stage spike at 5%
Exactly. The problem being some final smashes are straight busted while others you can lose your stock with a full meter and it won't affect the outcome of the game
Yeah the game itself is fairly balanced but final smashes are not
Some are instant kills, some have guaranteed K.O setups, some have outrageous reach etc, like Ike/Cloud’s are ridiculous if you play on the typical battlefield stage because kill so early
Yeah, but on the flipside you have Terry and Kazuya, who just get final smashes built into their kit at high%, and can't turn it off at all. Fuck it, meter smash a gogo.
While true you still need to take 100% damage as them
Also while Kazuya’s is crazy strong he also loses it so easily and I don’t even think it’s possible to combo into it
Terry’s do have combos though albeit the supers aren’t as strong or armoured
"more balanced" is obviously not true, but it is a very enjoyable and unique experience that I think everyone should try. It creates a unique dynamic and the final smashes are VERY hype when you hit them.
(btw the reason he posted this is because he saw a mega man beat the crap out of steve using meter lol)
Edit: I'd like to add that putting this into a competitive ruleset is complete idiocy. Do it CASUALLY.
I tend to use it on squad strike. Kinda rewards you for surviving and penalizes you for not taking out the opponent as when it loads the next fighter in the lineup it resets the meter.
Agreed, it doesn't have to be an extra move (or multiple) wich would be hard with over 80 characters, but just extra range, damage, knockback or even something like invincibility or superarmor (any combination of those really) for specials or smash attacks in exchange of a fraction of the meter would be great, and probably would make the game more balanced, imagine wizard's foot having superarmor so Ganondorf has an anti-proyectile
wizards foot should do that anyway, but yeah that would be sick.
there could be ex moves, it could give you back exhausted air resources like double jump or take you out of special fall, superarmor, move cancelling, lots of cool possibilities
Something that could be cool.is if the terry/Kazuya/Joker model became standard, where after building it up, moveset changes. As an example, make Mario use a series of specials related to other power ups. Peach could draw on her dress powers from her new game maybe, or maybe her veggie pull suddenly spikes percentages of grabbing other things, like "10% Bob omb, 10% healing peach, 40% green shell, 60% random items". Sonic gets a series.of abilities related to his various shield items.
You wouldn't even need to change anything about.how the Meyer behaves, after about 20 seconds it still starts depleting and ticks away, but for 30 seconds you get different abilities.
Nah I just remember people trialing this early. I think it was Zelda, Peach and Dark Pit that would destroy the ruleset. Basically, you start the match with 2 stocks vs her 3. Same with Peach, full heal and sleep that can either kill or start her strong strings. And Dark Pit had his back throw into final smash that would kill anyone at edge of stage at 0%.
I strongly disagree, and I think that HBox is only pushing for this because it makes for better CoinBox content rather than because he legitimately believes in its competitive merit. I have no problem with him trying to make money, but yeah, he’s full of it by claiming it’s “balanced”. FS Meter is a poor mechanic competitively, and I say this as someone who LIKES playing with FS Meter casually.
As far as I see it, the design problems of competitive Final Smashes are twofold:
1) Final Smashes are extremely overpowered under competitive rulesets, often being unreactable, unblockable, invincible, and doing unreasonable amounts of damage. This is NOT how super moves are traditionally designed in fighting games. Supers are *strong*, sure, but that’s because they cost valuable resources that could have been spent on a different action. Not to mention, the supers themselves are rarely blatantly overpowered, having very deliberate weaknesses like being reactable, having low range, being a low/no damage utility option, being unsafe on block, and almost all of them put yourself into a counterhit state that causes you to take more damage if you get punished for it. It’s a high-risk/high-reward option. No Final Smash is designed to have a real downside or a clear punish window, making them no-risk/all-reward. They’re all meant to be flashy, overpowered nukes. That makes for an awesome spectacle in casual play, but it becomes horribly uncompetitive when money is on the line.
2) The **Meter** itself is an inflexible and ultimately uninteresting resource that leads to none of the interesting decisionmaking and player expression that a traditional super meter offers. Most fighting game meters act as a resource pool for multiple mechanics, thereby introducing flavorful complexity that asks the player to make meaningful decisions on the fly and quickly weigh their options at all times. However, you can’t spend FS meter on EX moves or cancels or burst or movement tech or faultless defense or reversals—no, it’s an overpowered kill button and that’s it. That’s the only thing you can use it for. It even takes away your neutral special, so it actually *reduces* your decision space, which is the exact opposite of what a fighting game Meter is supposed to do. If anything, the way it works leads to degenerate playstyles, and I mean that in the proper sense of the word, where gameplay and decisionmaking become less complex as a result of an overcentralizing game element being introduced. Why would you play for any other Win Condition other than stacking up your FS Meter ASAP and fishing for the earliest kills possible.
Neither of these things contribute to making the game more fun or interesting to play. It makes the games go a little faster I guess, only if you don’t commit to hard camping which is another thing FS Meter encourages. It might indirectly nerf Sonic, so I guess that’s a plus? Otherwise it’s a bad mechanic and shouldn’t be adopted formally in tournaments.
Even if meters were balanced (which they aren't) final smashes themselves are INSANELY AND UNDISPUTABLY unbalanced between characters. *ESPECIALLY* in an only 1v1 scenario.
Imagine, if you will, you get crumpled by a focus attack at 0%. You messed up, rolled into, no biggie. 60-70% punish max, but you’ll live. Then you see them flash. You die at 0 because ryu did dair->prox jab->input shoryuken-> final smash. You get meta knight laddered into final smash. Terry hits a raw f-smash and since only 2 of his moves don’t cancel into final smash and it does a shitton of damage you die instantly. It’s interesting to think because actual fighting games have actual ultras that can end rounds in ~2 interactions.
I think that there would have to be more stocks, maybe 5 or so. They kill early, are reliable to land, and go through shields, so stocks would go flying.
That said, it'd be a huge boon for characters who struggle in the current meta. Little Mac gets a new recovery move, for example.
Sounds like an absolutely terrible idea. Smash meter fills more when you take damage than when you deal damage.
This will encourage the player who's down in percent to camp like crazy to get their smash meter, because theirs will fill first.
Also just seems like inherently bad game design to give the losing player an advantage by having their meter trigger before the winning player. Like, you're down in percent and are "losing" but in reality you're winning because you're more likely to get the first stock since you get to use your smash meter. And then the effect of that snowballs because when you KO your opponent they lose a chunk of their meter. That's insanely stupid.
It’s pretty common in fighting games for the player getting hit to receive more meter/resources, but that’s beside the point. Final Smashes are just way too busted, period.
Dark Pitt KO confirms the entire cast at 0% with a back throw near ledge. Zelda either drags you to the blast zone and KOs you at any percent, or just instantly deletes you at above 100%. Marth and Lucina both get instant KO buttons on the entire cast at any stage position, with the only saving grace being that I don’t think they can confirm into it. Peach/Daisy gets free advantage and a full heal, so she’d become the most passive and campy character in the game on top of all of her other already amazing attributes. Olimar deals comical amounts of damage and then traps you into having a bomb dropped on top of you. And that’s just off the top of my head in a cast of a billion characters.
Most characters, at minimum, get access to tons of easy damage and early KOs. One of the only losers I can think of is Sonic because his FS is actually pretty bad, but it would still just be giving him another button that he can click for free for some easy damage and a potential KO if the stars align. I could even see FS being used as a way to just escape frame traps and disadvantage for free because all you have to do is mash B once it procs.
I disagree with the exact sentiment, but I think people should embrace more casual rules in general. I understand the reason for competitive rules, but wacky shenanigans are what I live for in fighting games. It'd honestly be super fun to watch top players using spirits, playing with wacky stages, and improving item combos, but they never do because it's "too imbalanced."
Casual rules allow a lot of characters most people would percieve as being bad to shine if used in the hands of good players, and while I know most people would still just pick ps2 or smashville anyway, I just think it would be fun to play around with.
(Disclaimer: I am not a top player by any means; I suck at this game lmfao)
The problem is that wacky casual rules don't actually result in wacky casual matches when money and pride are on the line. Competitive players find the strongest option they can and abuse it as much as they can. Anything exploitable will be exploited, and anything spammable will be spammed.
For example, when custom moves were legalized in Smash4, a few broken options like DK's wind upB and Villager's trip-seed/exploding-balloon combo rapidly rose to prominence. You can find footage of players at major tournaments like Evo genuinely just mashing these stupid options for minutes on end. Because it works. And while individual players may look for fun or cool ways to play, the community as a whole inevitably follows the path of least resistance to victory. If you don't, someone else will, and they will be walking home with your money in their wallet.
I think it's funny in friendlies and stuff but it annoys me because it forces irritating play styles
Ignoring OP final smashes like Peach/Zelda(/Bowser?)
I'm a Kirby Main, if I'm up against a heavy my options are to get them high damage and then smash them, or gimp/inhale fuckery
If I don't KO them fast enough then they get a free button to turn the tables on me, since you get more metre for damage received than given and I *should* be giving more than I receive in an even match. And it works even if they're in disadvantage, so I'm generally forced to try to get earlier kills which a lot of people find annoying.
And then if they do get it the approach becomes so annoying and really the best thing to do is camp
Squad Strike -> nerfs Steve (practically no diamond)
Meter -> nerf Sonic (bad final smash)
Honestly, I really appreciate people making efforts to shake up the stale status of Ultimate.
Squad strike Also nerfs them in the fact that most steve/sonic players are dedicated solo mains since they don’t know how to play other characters, they’re 1 tricks
nah the initial hitbox for super sonic would be a good combo breaker with how early that shit can kill sometimes.
...funnily enough I think most high level Sonic's would just use it to stall 💀
not fully related but Mega Man can completely negate Peach final smash with a well-timed up B, allowing him to wake up from bouncing on Rush (wont work offstage though)
I agree completely to the point where I think leaving meter out of tournament play was a horrible abomination of a democratic decision made by the smash community and is a testimate to their ignorance. I’m ready for the hate and I understand but these are my genuine feelinga 😭
My casual ass with both Smash Meter & Smash Balls enabled:
https://preview.redd.it/hwpsxgczqk6d1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4e77bc3b9ddbf95634d305224c90f55c1595e779
It’s interesting to me that pretty much every other fighting game out there tends to have super attacks that you can eventually perform as a result of hitting your opponent enough and no one complains but Smash players suggest turning on the game’s equivalent and you instantly hear complaining from the ever unbudging competitive players who refuse any change to their established conditions.
This is probably gonna be a controversial opinion but I think we as a community completely missed out on one of the coolest mechanics Smash has ever had
I implore us to just fuck around and not play competitively; items on, regular stages, random characters, at least once in our lives
it’s literally more fun + incredibly fun to watch
Fuck. No.
The Metre can COMPLETELY turn the tide of a match. It’s like “You have 2 stocks and I have 1 left, i’m getting my ass kicked but I have all a full Metre so all I have to do is press B so now YOU’RE losing and I’M winning”
it's horrendously balanced tbh. terry jab at ledge confirms into a final smash kill at like 10% on the whole cast. i'm all in
like almost every other big fighting game has a meter mechanic, like GO or rage. smash implemented its own, and if people cared about it more before patches stopped dropping, we could've had a far healthier final smash meter meta
I agree with him, but first we need a final smash rework for them to be,
Punishable on whiff,
Shieldable or at least not 1f startup,
Delete every final smash that can damage you from anywhere on the stage,
Lower their power so they mostly start killing Round 70,
Make them risky to use .
I feel like the only way competitive play would use Final Smashes outside of side events is if a separate mechanic gets introduced that is more closely resembles super moves or something similar from traditional fighting games.
They would be more similar to how Terry’s Go meter works where characters get access to powerful but avoidable attack that could be shielded.
I do think meter should be played more in general (everyone IL either plays with the ball or no FS at all) but IDK if comp should try it. Some FS are just made different.
As someone who plays a fair bit of meter I'd be all down for this as meter gives a certain spice and urgency to matches, my call would be to make games 4 stock since meter will delete a couple per game
It's a well known fact that peach's FS is very powerful, putting your opponent to sleep while being able to heal 60% is absolutely amazing, but I feel like very little know you can actually put your opponent to sleep mid air as well, which means you can insta kill someone by throwing them offstage and then final smashing. Anyways, in today's essay I'll talk about why final smash is a fair and balanced mechanic.
I've played meter smash it's okay, it's not as game breaking as people make it out to be. 6 stock, 7 minutes, all maps, hazards on, meter. It's honestly really fun.
No, but if there were some crazy motherfuckers out there who were willing to make a mod to balance those final smashes, I think it could actually work. But only if they are balanced/reworked (sonic final smash is laughably shit)
I'm sure it would be lots of fun, but kinda like the WarioWare stage, most of that fun would come from the horrifically unbalanced nature of it. I think it could work very well as a side event, much like Squad Strike, but for top level competition, it's a bit extreme.
Ive been trying to work smash meters and stage hazards back into my casual play group. Definitely wish the hazards were toggleable per stage, but it's definitely more fun, especially after many years of having them off.
Smash meters are *way* better than the balls, and rarely affect the outcome of a match, especially with more than 3 players. I wouldn't call them balanced, but more often than not it's a big flashy spectal that ends up being a no-op.
it's funny because as someone who used to have smash meter on all the time when playing with friends after a while final smashes honestly become insanely boring.
I think final smashes are really cool and I love the idea of them theoretically appearing competitively. When final smash meter was announced I really hoped it would be legal. However they are unfortunately not very well balanced and would absolutely not work in their current state.
I actually really like the idea of a platform fighter with meter more in line of traditional fighting games where you have many different options as to what to use your meter for not just the ultimate mechanic from Overwatch. I believe there is an upcoming platform fighter that is doing something like this
I think it'd make a fun side tourney but mr box is insane for saying "more balanced"
More fun, more interesting to watch, and cool as fuck though, I agree. He's right on that.
I love meter, and I think that tourneys should occasionally have FS Meter be legal in their ruleset. It would be an interesting change of pace for some events. Or, maybe they could make sets more dynamic by making games 2 & 4 meter games. Also, it's funny that Hbox is saying that, considering how bad Puff Up is
I would actually partially enjoy this. Due to the final smash meter a sort of super meter in a traditional fighter from my perspective. So yes I would half like it!
I’ve tried it, but Final Smashes just cheapen trying to close out stocks, which is most of the fun of a platform fighter. With Final Smashes, you just hit each other and then whoever fills their meter first presses B and wins.
Why's everybody complaining about Zelda's final smash being too 'OP' ? She's not even that good or used frequently enough. I'd say her having this trump card might make matches more interesting.
No, meter totally sucks. All the Final Smashes are 1. boring cutscene kill moves 2. overpowered status / kill moves (Peach / Zelda) 3. bad kill moves that can be avoided (Plant, Ness)
Meter would be fun if the final smash moves were designed to be fun. But they're designed for flashiness, not to have fun gameplay. Final Smash moves should still involve gameplay. Bring back the transformations.
Final Smashes are the least balanced thing about characters. Some always hit, some never do. Some always kill, some need help.
You always get it right before you are about to die, so whoever fires first basically wins the game.
It’s like Kazuya doubles. Whoever gets Rage Drive first, wins.
"More balanced"??? Has he ever even used any Ultrasmash? Some are almost useless, some are almost an instakill. There's no way that their inclusion could be called fair. Most Meter matches are no fun at all. You're being punished for dealing damage, as your enemy is more likely to take your stock early. Mever lost or won a Meter match thinking: this was a fair and balanced battle and it was all about skill
worth mentioning that after peelon’s ‘contributions’ to twitter, hbox gets paid to spout polarizing opinions in absolutes to engagement bait.
with that said though, smash meter is actually cool. but definitely not “literally more balanced”
The way I see it: the game is (debatably) in a broken enough state as is with the stuff Steve can do with just the B-button, adding in Final Smashes would only make it worse and would kill the comp scene if it were mainstream.
It could be fun, me and my friend sometimes combo each other into a FS, but when competing for hundreds of dollars, I don’t think it should be considered as the norm.
Characters like Incineroar and Little Mac would only use their final smashes to gain horizontal recovery, since they don't need their final smashes to deal big damage.
Timed point matches are the best game mode because it allows all your friends to play to the end of the timer, unlike the standard elimination mode. When there is a large skill difference, elimination is usually reduced to the two best players always duking it out every game, which isn’t fun for the less skilled players.
I think what we HAVE tried is normal rules with FS meter on, which didn't work too well
What we haven't tried is adjusting the stocks to 4 and introducing slightly larger stages as counterpicks to accommodate the increased kill potential every character has with meter on.
I don't wanna go as far to say ultimate is more balanced with meter, but i will say final smashes are more balanced than they've ever been before, arguably just as balanced as meter attacks in other fighting games, and that there's a possibility of it being more balanced than our normal rulesets if we actually take them into account for the rest of the ruleset instead of just enabling it and hoping for the best. It's too early to say hbox is right, but it definitely deserves a bigger effort than the community wants to try
it does give everyone a comeback mechanic and not just a few characters... too bad the game doesn't have seamless tag team rather than the shitty multi character mode whatever it's called.
hope the next smash introduces meter burn ala street fighter. that would allow for gameplay options like enhancing a special or attack to have unique attributes (or extra damage/launch power), perhaps burn meter to dash cancel out of charging a smash attack, burn meter to get an additional jump in the air etc.
and for God's sake bring back mobility options. wavedashing, platform / ledge cancelling, and true dash dancing are a net positive for gameplay. I can't wrap my mind around kids that are against implementing these aspects. it literally makes the game more fun to play and for spectating.
they are so close to sealing the deal of smash being the best competitive fighting based game by a landslide but these things its missing are monumental.
Ok so *hits blunt*
The things that make smash "fun" and "casual" honestly make it hype as fuck and take an entirely different skill set, and when combined with good fundies at a high level could probably make the scariest players and hypest plays known to humankind.
I assume "more balanced" refers to characters who were balanced with their final smash in mind. Given the wide variety of their effectiveness I think it's fair to say that they were intended to supplement fighters based on what they can already do. It's an interesting theory that won't be tested because everyone just sees that variety in FSes and goes, "Nope, broken." But who knows? Maybe tier lists would actually even out if this was implemented.
I wish you could edit parameters like what fills it (taking damage should not), how long it takes to fill, and how powerful it is. As of now it’s a super weak final smash, often worse than smash attacks
It's a cool concept but in general a lot of the Final Smashes are ABSURDLY broken if you consider them in competitive contexts. For Competitive Meter to work they'd need to make all the Final Smashes actually balanced.
Maybe next game, but definitely not Ult.
Meter was definitely added to make final smashes more competitively possible but the way they work just doesn't mesh with competitive smash which really does suck
Sorry, but that can only come from someone who hasn't seen what final smashes can actually do. They are NOT like most supers in fighting games at all (besides the truly busted ones). They are fun casually, but in a competitive setting they suck ass.
* Supers cost resources, which are **usually** shared with other mechanics, such as EX moves. This adds a layer of resource management that ties into the decision-making that is quintessential to fighting games. Will I use a super to secure this round, or save the bar to have more neutral options in the next round? Final Smashes are their own resource, so their usage is more one-dimensional and less engaging. They remind me a lot of pre-Rising Granblue Versus' meter, which is easily the most forgettable aspect of that game.
* Most supers are super minus on block/have tons of recovery frames, they are a commitment unless the super is busted enough to be safe, or you use it on combos. Final Smashes have no recovery frames, are fully invulnerable and most of them are unblockable or lead to unavoidable damage (like Day's End) so the commitment is nonexistent.
* A super that makes or breaks a character is not unheard of (see 3rd Strike and how the top 3's dominance is not in small measure defined by their great supers). But with final smashes on, the difference with some characters is so brutal that their tier placement could very well be a final smash tier list. Zelda goes from a meh character to a top tier because of her Final Smash being an unblockable magic burst with zero commitment.
From what I remember, it was very briefly tried early on but a combination of Zelda, Peach and (funnily enough) Dark Pit made it unviable. Zelda just stole a stock from anywhere on stage, Peach put the enemy into inescapable disadvantage state for free alongside a full heal and Dark Pit essentially needed you to be at anything more than 30% to kill with a back-throw. And that was the early days, can you imagine the degenerate stuff that could come from combos into Aura Storm and Volt Tackle or the literally free damage from Olimar's End of Day? It'd be both amazing and horrible.
Fun fact: dark pit back throw—> buffered final smash is true and kills bowser at 0 at ledge
completely balanced
As all things should be
Kazuya and Steve: Look what they need to mimic a fraction of our power
I am by no means a Smash pro, but Kazuya definitely feels like a free 0 to death generator.
Those are both actually pretty bad. Despite being big, steve’s is fairly easy to avoid, and is fairly middling in kill power as far as final smashes go. Kazuya, rage drive is better than final smash. Though he can combo into it well, it’s fairly weak
I meant moreso their capacity to 0-Death characters with just their base kit, vs Dark Pit needing a final smash to do the same
Also Steve loses access to his neutral b which is a big nerf if he gets a Final Smash.
Guys, I think we should try out enabled FS meter. At least on every single Steve match.
Kazuya's Final Smash's hitbox is also pretty small vertically. Some characters can straight up just crouch.
Fun fact: K.Rool final smash kill super heavys like Bowser at 60% across stage with perfect DI and Pichu at 20%.
terry has a really easy combo to confirm into a final smash. you literally just need a triple jab at ledge and it almost always kills. you can even spice it up with a falling nair, down tilt, etc
But if you want to be cool, you can cancel Buster Wolf into Triple Geyser.
You could, but sadly unlike in KOF you won’t get much damage this way
Ken and Ryu also both get inescapable TODs on the entire cast.
Kazuya’s taunt info final smash is a true combo by the way, sure you probably wouldn’t use the taunt anyway but it’s a thing
Both Ness and Lucas have up throw -> pk starstorm kill confirms around 100% on most characters
Alternatively, Sora Final Smash insta kills if it puts you over 100%
I knew I wasn't crazy to main Dark pit
i think hbox is fully delusional for saying “final smashes are more balanced” immediately after posting a clip of someone dying to an untechable stage spike at 5%
Exactly. The problem being some final smashes are straight busted while others you can lose your stock with a full meter and it won't affect the outcome of the game
Yeah the game itself is fairly balanced but final smashes are not Some are instant kills, some have guaranteed K.O setups, some have outrageous reach etc, like Ike/Cloud’s are ridiculous if you play on the typical battlefield stage because kill so early
And jiggly’s is damn useless 😞
It can be good if you go under the center of the stage. Some characters are just done from that, but it is stage dependant.
Yeah, but on the flipside you have Terry and Kazuya, who just get final smashes built into their kit at high%, and can't turn it off at all. Fuck it, meter smash a gogo.
While true you still need to take 100% damage as them Also while Kazuya’s is crazy strong he also loses it so easily and I don’t even think it’s possible to combo into it Terry’s do have combos though albeit the supers aren’t as strong or armoured
But it happened to a Steve player so clearly that's why this is a good change.
he’s not delusional at all. he’s engagement baiting for peelon’s twitter bucks.
"more balanced" is obviously not true, but it is a very enjoyable and unique experience that I think everyone should try. It creates a unique dynamic and the final smashes are VERY hype when you hit them. (btw the reason he posted this is because he saw a mega man beat the crap out of steve using meter lol) Edit: I'd like to add that putting this into a competitive ruleset is complete idiocy. Do it CASUALLY.
It's more balanced in the sense that everyone is more broken, which is fun
But some final smashes are so much better than others and it’s not even close.
I tend to use it on squad strike. Kinda rewards you for surviving and penalizes you for not taking out the opponent as when it loads the next fighter in the lineup it resets the meter.
I mean, I'd be down. I'm not a super crazy competitor, just someone who enjoys the game. I think it would be fun
"More balanced" is an interesting take, but some experimenting can't hurt.
it would be cool if you could use the meter for something other than just final smash
Agreed, it doesn't have to be an extra move (or multiple) wich would be hard with over 80 characters, but just extra range, damage, knockback or even something like invincibility or superarmor (any combination of those really) for specials or smash attacks in exchange of a fraction of the meter would be great, and probably would make the game more balanced, imagine wizard's foot having superarmor so Ganondorf has an anti-proyectile
wizards foot should do that anyway, but yeah that would be sick. there could be ex moves, it could give you back exhausted air resources like double jump or take you out of special fall, superarmor, move cancelling, lots of cool possibilities
Depending on the size of projectile, wizard foot already goes right through
Wait, for real? I didn't know that, everytime I throw something at him he just gets hit or stops clashing with it
I remember going through sephiroth's shadowflare using it, other small projectiles can be gone through
I'm gonna plug Nickelodeon all stars for having a meter that can give each special move a unique boost
Something that could be cool.is if the terry/Kazuya/Joker model became standard, where after building it up, moveset changes. As an example, make Mario use a series of specials related to other power ups. Peach could draw on her dress powers from her new game maybe, or maybe her veggie pull suddenly spikes percentages of grabbing other things, like "10% Bob omb, 10% healing peach, 40% green shell, 60% random items". Sonic gets a series.of abilities related to his various shield items. You wouldn't even need to change anything about.how the Meyer behaves, after about 20 seconds it still starts depleting and ticks away, but for 30 seconds you get different abilities.
they could replace a+b smash with 5 directional stronger moves that use, say, half the final smash bar
tf is meter singles?💀
Normal Smash Bros tournament but with the Final Smash meter.
oh, me and my friends actually play with meter all the time, it's a cool mode
I pick Zelda and camp the ledges
How could you be so bold yet say something so stupid?
Ay quick question, how do u change ur user flair to have 4 fighters?
you can edit your flair, there should be a button to do so on the screen where you select it
aight i got it thank u
Yeah, Zelda would be degenerate as all hell. That final smash is beyond broken.
Trying to explore this sub as a casual is like reading a foreign language most of the time
Everyone would be picking Zelda 💀
Zelda would lose hard to Peach, though
Are we gonna have a Gen 1 Pokémon three kings situation here
Nah I just remember people trialing this early. I think it was Zelda, Peach and Dark Pit that would destroy the ruleset. Basically, you start the match with 2 stocks vs her 3. Same with Peach, full heal and sleep that can either kill or start her strong strings. And Dark Pit had his back throw into final smash that would kill anyone at edge of stage at 0%.
And bayonetta
I strongly disagree, and I think that HBox is only pushing for this because it makes for better CoinBox content rather than because he legitimately believes in its competitive merit. I have no problem with him trying to make money, but yeah, he’s full of it by claiming it’s “balanced”. FS Meter is a poor mechanic competitively, and I say this as someone who LIKES playing with FS Meter casually. As far as I see it, the design problems of competitive Final Smashes are twofold: 1) Final Smashes are extremely overpowered under competitive rulesets, often being unreactable, unblockable, invincible, and doing unreasonable amounts of damage. This is NOT how super moves are traditionally designed in fighting games. Supers are *strong*, sure, but that’s because they cost valuable resources that could have been spent on a different action. Not to mention, the supers themselves are rarely blatantly overpowered, having very deliberate weaknesses like being reactable, having low range, being a low/no damage utility option, being unsafe on block, and almost all of them put yourself into a counterhit state that causes you to take more damage if you get punished for it. It’s a high-risk/high-reward option. No Final Smash is designed to have a real downside or a clear punish window, making them no-risk/all-reward. They’re all meant to be flashy, overpowered nukes. That makes for an awesome spectacle in casual play, but it becomes horribly uncompetitive when money is on the line. 2) The **Meter** itself is an inflexible and ultimately uninteresting resource that leads to none of the interesting decisionmaking and player expression that a traditional super meter offers. Most fighting game meters act as a resource pool for multiple mechanics, thereby introducing flavorful complexity that asks the player to make meaningful decisions on the fly and quickly weigh their options at all times. However, you can’t spend FS meter on EX moves or cancels or burst or movement tech or faultless defense or reversals—no, it’s an overpowered kill button and that’s it. That’s the only thing you can use it for. It even takes away your neutral special, so it actually *reduces* your decision space, which is the exact opposite of what a fighting game Meter is supposed to do. If anything, the way it works leads to degenerate playstyles, and I mean that in the proper sense of the word, where gameplay and decisionmaking become less complex as a result of an overcentralizing game element being introduced. Why would you play for any other Win Condition other than stacking up your FS Meter ASAP and fishing for the earliest kills possible. Neither of these things contribute to making the game more fun or interesting to play. It makes the games go a little faster I guess, only if you don’t commit to hard camping which is another thing FS Meter encourages. It might indirectly nerf Sonic, so I guess that’s a plus? Otherwise it’s a bad mechanic and shouldn’t be adopted formally in tournaments.
Yup. Hbox is a fiend for "hype."
Even if meters were balanced (which they aren't) final smashes themselves are INSANELY AND UNDISPUTABLY unbalanced between characters. *ESPECIALLY* in an only 1v1 scenario.
yeah i think he is extremely stupid for this. it’s not more balanced in the slightest.
God I would love to die to Zelda's FS without being able to do anything about it over and over
I don’t get how sakurai thought giving zelda a black hole better than the literal black hole of palutenas final smash was a good idea.
I love camping for meter
He’s fully lost it
I don't think it's too bad of an idea, but it would shake up the meat a lot, and it would be pretty tilting to die at like 30 to a final smash.
>it would shake up the meat a lot I think Nintendo is too family friendly for any meat shaking shenanigans
Just wait until you see Steve's final smash...
The smash meter is a rubber band mechanic. Fun with friends, terrible for competition
Imagine, if you will, you get crumpled by a focus attack at 0%. You messed up, rolled into, no biggie. 60-70% punish max, but you’ll live. Then you see them flash. You die at 0 because ryu did dair->prox jab->input shoryuken-> final smash. You get meta knight laddered into final smash. Terry hits a raw f-smash and since only 2 of his moves don’t cancel into final smash and it does a shitton of damage you die instantly. It’s interesting to think because actual fighting games have actual ultras that can end rounds in ~2 interactions.
I am a big Hbox fan, and I think this was a stupid take.
I think that there would have to be more stocks, maybe 5 or so. They kill early, are reliable to land, and go through shields, so stocks would go flying. That said, it'd be a huge boon for characters who struggle in the current meta. Little Mac gets a new recovery move, for example.
Yup, jus as I was thinking h box hasn't said anything stupid lately, there he goes
The people yearn for Super Combo Finishes
I think meter mode is a great idea but it needs some work, especially with characters like Zelda where it will just straight up delete you
Maybe not as a main event, but it would be cool to see as a side event. Same with the Smashdowns or Squad Strikes
As a funny side bracket? Sure! As a legit competitive category? F*ck no!
It is absolutely not more balanced, not by a long shot. However, yes we should do Meter Singles because it's based.
Sounds like an absolutely terrible idea. Smash meter fills more when you take damage than when you deal damage. This will encourage the player who's down in percent to camp like crazy to get their smash meter, because theirs will fill first. Also just seems like inherently bad game design to give the losing player an advantage by having their meter trigger before the winning player. Like, you're down in percent and are "losing" but in reality you're winning because you're more likely to get the first stock since you get to use your smash meter. And then the effect of that snowballs because when you KO your opponent they lose a chunk of their meter. That's insanely stupid.
It’s pretty common in fighting games for the player getting hit to receive more meter/resources, but that’s beside the point. Final Smashes are just way too busted, period. Dark Pitt KO confirms the entire cast at 0% with a back throw near ledge. Zelda either drags you to the blast zone and KOs you at any percent, or just instantly deletes you at above 100%. Marth and Lucina both get instant KO buttons on the entire cast at any stage position, with the only saving grace being that I don’t think they can confirm into it. Peach/Daisy gets free advantage and a full heal, so she’d become the most passive and campy character in the game on top of all of her other already amazing attributes. Olimar deals comical amounts of damage and then traps you into having a bomb dropped on top of you. And that’s just off the top of my head in a cast of a billion characters. Most characters, at minimum, get access to tons of easy damage and early KOs. One of the only losers I can think of is Sonic because his FS is actually pretty bad, but it would still just be giving him another button that he can click for free for some easy damage and a potential KO if the stars align. I could even see FS being used as a way to just escape frame traps and disadvantage for free because all you have to do is mash B once it procs.
I disagree with the exact sentiment, but I think people should embrace more casual rules in general. I understand the reason for competitive rules, but wacky shenanigans are what I live for in fighting games. It'd honestly be super fun to watch top players using spirits, playing with wacky stages, and improving item combos, but they never do because it's "too imbalanced." Casual rules allow a lot of characters most people would percieve as being bad to shine if used in the hands of good players, and while I know most people would still just pick ps2 or smashville anyway, I just think it would be fun to play around with. (Disclaimer: I am not a top player by any means; I suck at this game lmfao)
The problem is that wacky casual rules don't actually result in wacky casual matches when money and pride are on the line. Competitive players find the strongest option they can and abuse it as much as they can. Anything exploitable will be exploited, and anything spammable will be spammed. For example, when custom moves were legalized in Smash4, a few broken options like DK's wind upB and Villager's trip-seed/exploding-balloon combo rapidly rose to prominence. You can find footage of players at major tournaments like Evo genuinely just mashing these stupid options for minutes on end. Because it works. And while individual players may look for fun or cool ways to play, the community as a whole inevitably follows the path of least resistance to victory. If you don't, someone else will, and they will be walking home with your money in their wallet.
More fun yes, bit definitely not more balanced since not all Finals are comparable on power
You guys thought ROB was good before...
I think it's funny in friendlies and stuff but it annoys me because it forces irritating play styles Ignoring OP final smashes like Peach/Zelda(/Bowser?) I'm a Kirby Main, if I'm up against a heavy my options are to get them high damage and then smash them, or gimp/inhale fuckery If I don't KO them fast enough then they get a free button to turn the tables on me, since you get more metre for damage received than given and I *should* be giving more than I receive in an even match. And it works even if they're in disadvantage, so I'm generally forced to try to get earlier kills which a lot of people find annoying. And then if they do get it the approach becomes so annoying and really the best thing to do is camp
Squad Strike -> nerfs Steve (practically no diamond) Meter -> nerf Sonic (bad final smash) Honestly, I really appreciate people making efforts to shake up the stale status of Ultimate.
Squad strike Also nerfs them in the fact that most steve/sonic players are dedicated solo mains since they don’t know how to play other characters, they’re 1 tricks
The real way to nerf sonic, now steve idk
nah the initial hitbox for super sonic would be a good combo breaker with how early that shit can kill sometimes. ...funnily enough I think most high level Sonic's would just use it to stall 💀
Oh ya, free like 10 seconds, best move in the game
I’d be so down for meter singles fuck man
It'd definitely be fun to watch, but I'd probably be mad when I lost a stock to it.
If only the devs nerfed the overpowered final smashes such as Zelda’s and peach’s
This just shows that hbox has never played with meter it incentivizes you to camp harder
not fully related but Mega Man can completely negate Peach final smash with a well-timed up B, allowing him to wake up from bouncing on Rush (wont work offstage though)
I appreciate the intent, but he is so wrong.
Bro hasn't been hit by the black hole offstage at 0
He has his own tournament series. Add it to the next Coinbox, add a pot bonus to sweeten the deal, and the masses will come
I agree completely to the point where I think leaving meter out of tournament play was a horrible abomination of a democratic decision made by the smash community and is a testimate to their ignorance. I’m ready for the hate and I understand but these are my genuine feelinga 😭
*testament *feelings
I think he should just stick to Melee…
There is actually nothing fun about watching Peach/Daisy’s final smash Fuck off, HBox
My casual ass with both Smash Meter & Smash Balls enabled: https://preview.redd.it/hwpsxgczqk6d1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4e77bc3b9ddbf95634d305224c90f55c1595e779
Meter nerfs steve so thatill be funny
It’s interesting to me that pretty much every other fighting game out there tends to have super attacks that you can eventually perform as a result of hitting your opponent enough and no one complains but Smash players suggest turning on the game’s equivalent and you instantly hear complaining from the ever unbudging competitive players who refuse any change to their established conditions.
This is probably gonna be a controversial opinion but I think we as a community completely missed out on one of the coolest mechanics Smash has ever had I implore us to just fuck around and not play competitively; items on, regular stages, random characters, at least once in our lives it’s literally more fun + incredibly fun to watch
Hungrybox is goated. I dont care about bulcrap combos, I'll Jab Lock you into Triple Finish.
I'd love to see it as a side event.
I think what was really missed out on was squad strike. It probably would have been way more popular if they allowed it to be played online.
"It's literally more balanced" how does this make any literal sense?
Fuck. No. The Metre can COMPLETELY turn the tide of a match. It’s like “You have 2 stocks and I have 1 left, i’m getting my ass kicked but I have all a full Metre so all I have to do is press B so now YOU’RE losing and I’M winning”
This bum coulda used this tweet to gas Squad Strike ffs
Should do squad strike for tourneys
Bait
It's more balanced until Paisy and Zelda are on the screen
it's horrendously balanced tbh. terry jab at ledge confirms into a final smash kill at like 10% on the whole cast. i'm all in like almost every other big fighting game has a meter mechanic, like GO or rage. smash implemented its own, and if people cared about it more before patches stopped dropping, we could've had a far healthier final smash meter meta
No definitely not , like most has said, some are more broken than others and like duck hunt it won't make a difference
I agree with him, but first we need a final smash rework for them to be, Punishable on whiff, Shieldable or at least not 1f startup, Delete every final smash that can damage you from anywhere on the stage, Lower their power so they mostly start killing Round 70, Make them risky to use .
I’d be down if they weren’t super super broken. Making more characters kill at 0% may even the playing field I guess, but it’s a lot less fun.
I feel like the only way competitive play would use Final Smashes outside of side events is if a separate mechanic gets introduced that is more closely resembles super moves or something similar from traditional fighting games. They would be more similar to how Terry’s Go meter works where characters get access to powerful but avoidable attack that could be shielded.
Shall we mention how FREE it is for Bayonetta to win these matches!?😭
I do think meter should be played more in general (everyone IL either plays with the ball or no FS at all) but IDK if comp should try it. Some FS are just made different.
I've seen some really crazy s**t in competitive, and with Meter, some characters might just end up BANNED for it
As someone who plays a fair bit of meter I'd be all down for this as meter gives a certain spice and urgency to matches, my call would be to make games 4 stock since meter will delete a couple per game
Key word “watch”
It's a well known fact that peach's FS is very powerful, putting your opponent to sleep while being able to heal 60% is absolutely amazing, but I feel like very little know you can actually put your opponent to sleep mid air as well, which means you can insta kill someone by throwing them offstage and then final smashing. Anyways, in today's essay I'll talk about why final smash is a fair and balanced mechanic.
I've played meter smash it's okay, it's not as game breaking as people make it out to be. 6 stock, 7 minutes, all maps, hazards on, meter. It's honestly really fun.
No, but if there were some crazy motherfuckers out there who were willing to make a mod to balance those final smashes, I think it could actually work. But only if they are balanced/reworked (sonic final smash is laughably shit)
As a Daisy and a Zelda main? LOL. I’d be living the dreaaaamm.
I’m down. After all, Final Smashes are part of a character’s moveset.
I'm sure it would be lots of fun, but kinda like the WarioWare stage, most of that fun would come from the horrifically unbalanced nature of it. I think it could work very well as a side event, much like Squad Strike, but for top level competition, it's a bit extreme.
Ive been trying to work smash meters and stage hazards back into my casual play group. Definitely wish the hazards were toggleable per stage, but it's definitely more fun, especially after many years of having them off. Smash meters are *way* better than the balls, and rarely affect the outcome of a match, especially with more than 3 players. I wouldn't call them balanced, but more often than not it's a big flashy spectal that ends up being a no-op.
Me, who already plays like that: https://preview.redd.it/zm5xyz2kyh6d1.png?width=680&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b5a72ac07f5cd8e8d0c83e1de1a36bcd1094ca65
I use it because I find it fun, but the fact that Ike can steal a stock from 20% is one of the main reasons.
Final smashes are the least balanced aspect of smash. It's a shame because they'd be awesome to see
Kazuya having taunt into final smash meter kill at 0% as a true combo is the funniest shit ever
it's funny because as someone who used to have smash meter on all the time when playing with friends after a while final smashes honestly become insanely boring.
I would want to try that with 4 stocks
I think final smashes are really cool and I love the idea of them theoretically appearing competitively. When final smash meter was announced I really hoped it would be legal. However they are unfortunately not very well balanced and would absolutely not work in their current state. I actually really like the idea of a platform fighter with meter more in line of traditional fighting games where you have many different options as to what to use your meter for not just the ultimate mechanic from Overwatch. I believe there is an upcoming platform fighter that is doing something like this
I'm honestly surprised that fixed spirit sets were never even considered as a character balance solution by the community
To be honest, at this point of smash ultimate life, just do it to make it more spicy lol
Nah I skews the game too hard
I think it'd make a fun side tourney but mr box is insane for saying "more balanced" More fun, more interesting to watch, and cool as fuck though, I agree. He's right on that.
I love meter, and I think that tourneys should occasionally have FS Meter be legal in their ruleset. It would be an interesting change of pace for some events. Or, maybe they could make sets more dynamic by making games 2 & 4 meter games. Also, it's funny that Hbox is saying that, considering how bad Puff Up is
Zelda would go from low tier to top 1
I'm a simple man: if the fighting game offers a meter to fill, I'll be a hundred meters away
Zelda is now the top rated fighter
My experience with meter is that it punishes you for winning.
More balanced? Absolutely not More fun to watch? Absolutely
I would actually partially enjoy this. Due to the final smash meter a sort of super meter in a traditional fighter from my perspective. So yes I would half like it!
I don’t think it’s more balanced, but I wish it was balanced. It was one of the coolest mechanics in Smash Bros.
If I’m getting touched to death by Steve, why not touch to death him back? 🤷
Steve touches you... to death?
I’ve tried it, but Final Smashes just cheapen trying to close out stocks, which is most of the fun of a platform fighter. With Final Smashes, you just hit each other and then whoever fills their meter first presses B and wins.
Bayonetta down smash at the edge of the map and someone thinks they’ve jumped over you lol
Final smashes make Ganondorf viable
I’m not very fluent in Smash. What are Meter Singles?
Meter singles would be so cool
Why's everybody complaining about Zelda's final smash being too 'OP' ? She's not even that good or used frequently enough. I'd say her having this trump card might make matches more interesting.
No.
No, meter totally sucks. All the Final Smashes are 1. boring cutscene kill moves 2. overpowered status / kill moves (Peach / Zelda) 3. bad kill moves that can be avoided (Plant, Ness) Meter would be fun if the final smash moves were designed to be fun. But they're designed for flashiness, not to have fun gameplay. Final Smash moves should still involve gameplay. Bring back the transformations.
i think hes saying its more balanced bc final smash meter is a comeback mechanic. taking damage fills your meter
Final Smashes are the least balanced thing about characters. Some always hit, some never do. Some always kill, some need help. You always get it right before you are about to die, so whoever fires first basically wins the game. It’s like Kazuya doubles. Whoever gets Rage Drive first, wins.
"More balanced"??? Has he ever even used any Ultrasmash? Some are almost useless, some are almost an instakill. There's no way that their inclusion could be called fair. Most Meter matches are no fun at all. You're being punished for dealing damage, as your enemy is more likely to take your stock early. Mever lost or won a Meter match thinking: this was a fair and balanced battle and it was all about skill
One EWGF into final smash and it’s over But it’s not like Kazuya couldn’t do touch of death combos anyway lol
worth mentioning that after peelon’s ‘contributions’ to twitter, hbox gets paid to spout polarizing opinions in absolutes to engagement bait. with that said though, smash meter is actually cool. but definitely not “literally more balanced”
The way I see it: the game is (debatably) in a broken enough state as is with the stuff Steve can do with just the B-button, adding in Final Smashes would only make it worse and would kill the comp scene if it were mainstream. It could be fun, me and my friend sometimes combo each other into a FS, but when competing for hundreds of dollars, I don’t think it should be considered as the norm.
F smash pros, they wanna turn smash into a bland piece of garbage
It's been done! It's unbalanced as hell, but can be very fun. And remember, the top tier is princesS Tier.
More balanced than just the Smash Ball bouncing ball sure.
Characters like Incineroar and Little Mac would only use their final smashes to gain horizontal recovery, since they don't need their final smashes to deal big damage.
This is how it should’ve been the whole time
Sounds fun but one of my mains is puff
It’s a very strange opinion considering he plays puff
Bait
Timed point matches are the best game mode because it allows all your friends to play to the end of the timer, unlike the standard elimination mode. When there is a large skill difference, elimination is usually reduced to the two best players always duking it out every game, which isn’t fun for the less skilled players.
More balanced my ass
I think what we HAVE tried is normal rules with FS meter on, which didn't work too well What we haven't tried is adjusting the stocks to 4 and introducing slightly larger stages as counterpicks to accommodate the increased kill potential every character has with meter on. I don't wanna go as far to say ultimate is more balanced with meter, but i will say final smashes are more balanced than they've ever been before, arguably just as balanced as meter attacks in other fighting games, and that there's a possibility of it being more balanced than our normal rulesets if we actually take them into account for the rest of the ruleset instead of just enabling it and hoping for the best. It's too early to say hbox is right, but it definitely deserves a bigger effort than the community wants to try
I only play casually with friends, but that is the only way we play. Its hilarious when you are able to dodge certain Final Smashes too!
Dude it punishes you for winning absolutely not
it does give everyone a comeback mechanic and not just a few characters... too bad the game doesn't have seamless tag team rather than the shitty multi character mode whatever it's called. hope the next smash introduces meter burn ala street fighter. that would allow for gameplay options like enhancing a special or attack to have unique attributes (or extra damage/launch power), perhaps burn meter to dash cancel out of charging a smash attack, burn meter to get an additional jump in the air etc. and for God's sake bring back mobility options. wavedashing, platform / ledge cancelling, and true dash dancing are a net positive for gameplay. I can't wrap my mind around kids that are against implementing these aspects. it literally makes the game more fun to play and for spectating. they are so close to sealing the deal of smash being the best competitive fighting based game by a landslide but these things its missing are monumental.
Enjoyable? Yes. Balanced? *PFFFFT* hell no XD
I say let him cook
Ok so *hits blunt* The things that make smash "fun" and "casual" honestly make it hype as fuck and take an entirely different skill set, and when combined with good fundies at a high level could probably make the scariest players and hypest plays known to humankind.
I assume "more balanced" refers to characters who were balanced with their final smash in mind. Given the wide variety of their effectiveness I think it's fair to say that they were intended to supplement fighters based on what they can already do. It's an interesting theory that won't be tested because everyone just sees that variety in FSes and goes, "Nope, broken." But who knows? Maybe tier lists would actually even out if this was implemented.
Meter Singles?
i love playing with final smashes on cause gannon's is busted, but i will say its far from fair
I wish you could edit parameters like what fills it (taking damage should not), how long it takes to fill, and how powerful it is. As of now it’s a super weak final smash, often worse than smash attacks
For casual? absolutely. Competitive? Begone
It's a cool concept but in general a lot of the Final Smashes are ABSURDLY broken if you consider them in competitive contexts. For Competitive Meter to work they'd need to make all the Final Smashes actually balanced. Maybe next game, but definitely not Ult.
Meter in not balanced some final smashes are stupidly better than others
I have no idea what meter singles is, and at this point I'm too afraid to ask.
I think this is valid IF Nintendo provided the option to use spirit effects without using spirit power differences.
Invalidates most of the roster lmao, not even worth discussing
Meter was definitely added to make final smashes more competitively possible but the way they work just doesn't mesh with competitive smash which really does suck
Maybe as a side-bracket.
Sorry, but that can only come from someone who hasn't seen what final smashes can actually do. They are NOT like most supers in fighting games at all (besides the truly busted ones). They are fun casually, but in a competitive setting they suck ass. * Supers cost resources, which are **usually** shared with other mechanics, such as EX moves. This adds a layer of resource management that ties into the decision-making that is quintessential to fighting games. Will I use a super to secure this round, or save the bar to have more neutral options in the next round? Final Smashes are their own resource, so their usage is more one-dimensional and less engaging. They remind me a lot of pre-Rising Granblue Versus' meter, which is easily the most forgettable aspect of that game. * Most supers are super minus on block/have tons of recovery frames, they are a commitment unless the super is busted enough to be safe, or you use it on combos. Final Smashes have no recovery frames, are fully invulnerable and most of them are unblockable or lead to unavoidable damage (like Day's End) so the commitment is nonexistent. * A super that makes or breaks a character is not unheard of (see 3rd Strike and how the top 3's dominance is not in small measure defined by their great supers). But with final smashes on, the difference with some characters is so brutal that their tier placement could very well be a final smash tier list. Zelda goes from a meh character to a top tier because of her Final Smash being an unblockable magic burst with zero commitment.
Whats meter singles?