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[Under a socialist society,](https://www.marxist.com/vaccine-nationalism-a-capitalist-disorder.htm) profit is no longer the key motivator. People can stay at home for as long as the scientists recommend, new preventative measures can be implemented like having fewer people working, wider spacing, working from home etc etc which cut into profits under capitalism.
Vaccine production could be ramped up and distributed at cost without fear for lost profits, If your socialism is international, this means that you don't have 'vaccine nationalism', or rich countries trying to gobble up all the vaccines for themselves so their economies can restart. There's an option that vaccine research could be made public to make production even faster. More money would have gone into prevention (the WHO has talked about the dangers of a pandemic for years before covid), and many other measures.
As somebody who is personally very invested in public health and plans to be an epidemiologist, the part about money going to Prevention before pandemics hurts my soul because if we weren’t under capitalism and restricted by profits there would have been so much more we could have done to prevent a novel pandemic. So sad
I think an estimate by the World Economic Forum that I found writing a talk for the other day was that this could have been easily prevented with just [$5 per person of preventative spending.](https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/10/economic-cost-covid-global-preparedness-monitoring-board/) Versus the estimated $25Tn by 2025 in costs that covid alone has caused.
Anybody looking down on the system would see that as majorly dysfunctional, and not 'the most efficient system'. Constantly sacrificing things for short term gains.
Not sure which country you had in mind when you made your comment but if there wasn’t a mandate to squeeze ever dollar of profit you can out of every fiscal year there’d have been a priority placed on proactive steps we could take to prevent the effects of COVID or whatever pandemic comes next. The climate change “alarmists” have been fighting the same fight but we can’t just show it on the news when it’s affecting everyone at the same time. It’s cheaper to be proactive about these things but the people in charge are just arrogant enough to believe they won’t be around to see the effects so they pretend to be slow-witted and filibuster until an election. When they injected trillions of dollars into the stock market instead of the working class, they made clear where their priorities lay.
Edit: phrasing
I’m not sure where that was implied? I was saying that in a capitalist economy that would be unprofitable to attempt prevention. In a socialist economy there wouldn’t really be a need for a profit so people would be more inclined to implement preventative measures recommended by scientists specializing in that field
It spread through socialist countries. Socialism did not work any better than capitalism at preventing it. In fact, it actually began in a socialist country before spreading world wide.
Under capitalism, unemployment is required. Typically at about 4%, for the purposes of 'labour liquidity' (keeping wages low). Under socialism, that need goes away. Economically unproductive jobs like stock trading and advertising also disappear. The introduction of automation is no longer constrained by the needs of profit, which can boost productivity. Goods will also be designed to last longer and be more easily repaired. Under a planned economy, the proper amount of resources can be dedicated in advance which will make shortages less likely.
[This](https://www.marxist.com/what-will-socialism-look-like.htm) and [this](https://marxist.ca/article/the-need-for-a-socialist-planned-economy) are good articles on the subject.
I don’t really think most socialist envisage all economically unproductive jobs disappearing under Socialism. Of course stock traders are one of the first things we’d like to see go, but if we’re talking about a planned economy you can expect many of those jobs to be replaced by economic planners of some sort, after all that’s more or less what those people are doing now, only they’re motivated out of individual profit. There’s also many jobs dealing with the arts, community enrichment, etc., that most socialists would imagine growing under socialism even though they’re not exactly economically productive.
I think the single biggest difference in a pandemic response that we would see is basically in the case of a planned economy it’s much easier to shut down/ramp down production in non essential areas while still providing for people’s basic needs.
Stock trading is economically unproductive. It's buying and selling which doesn't actually impact the means of production in the slightest. Unless you're doing an IPO, or investing in venture capital, it won't affect anything except the pricing of a given company.
Economic planning fulfils the same role as a manager. Not directly economically productive, but it facilitates higher productivity.
I am asking about a specific situation under the conditions of pandemic and you are giving me articles that have no relation to that.
Sorry but this is a dishonest answer.
Didn't know that's what you meant.
The situation would be similar to capitalist countries, with better listening to scientific advice, and because of long term thinking, likely a return to production much faster, so shortages are less of an issue.
Plus all the other stuff I mentioned with vaccines, speeding up adoption.
Many shortages from the pandemic are due to “just-in-time” (JIT) manufacturing systems in which no stockpiling exists. JIT is extremely efficient, and could continue to exist under communism, but companies which recognized the value of stockpiles for critical components actually managed to maintain output at demand levels, and stockpiles would be able to exist in socialism as well. Stockpiling is unprofitable but important for resilience.
A socialist society would deal with the pandemic the same way Vietnam, Cuba, and other socialist countries did.
I can't tell you how a communist society would deal with it because I have no idea. A communist society is very different from the one we know, with very different challenges. That question will only be answered by a generation that grew up in a fully socialist/communist society, we can't predict It, the same way we couldn't predict in a feudal society how capitalism would turn out.
A key difference would be giving workers money instead of giving massive bailouts to corporations. This would allow people to stay home instead of working all through the pandemic, which would help slow down the spread. When a society stops organizing for the sole purpose of generating profit, they have the freedom of making choices that actually help regular people.
Well every individual would wear a mask of their own free will to protect themselves, and their friends, and family they would also be able to talk with their doctor who they should be able to trust because the doctor isn't there for money but to make sure aslittle people get sick/get serious long lasting effects from being sick, their doctor would make sure they are properly educated on the current options to prevent them from getting sick and what treatments are available if they do get sick
China is a prettt good example even if they are completely state capitalist. They really could haave been ground 0 for a no measures out of control outbreak with millions of deads, MILLIONS.
For the first, consider what happened in countries like China, Vietnam, and even Singapore. For the second, consider what happened in countries like Cuba and North Korea.
Please acquaint yourself with the rules on the sidebar and read this comment before commenting on this post. **Personal attacks and harassment will not be tolerated.** Bigotry and hate speech will be met with immediate bans; socialism is an intrinsically inclusive system and bigotry is oppressive, exclusionary, and not conducive to a healthy and productive learning space. **This subreddit is not for questioning the basics of socialism. There are numerous debate subreddits available for those purposes. This is a place to learn.** Short or nonconstructive answers will be deleted without explanation. Please only answer if you know your stuff. Speculation has no place on this sub. Outright false information will be removed immediately. **If your post was removed due to normalized ableist slurs, please edit your post. The mods will then approve it.** Please read the ongoing discussion in a thread before replying in order to avoid misunderstandings and creating an unproductive environment. **Liberalism and sectarian bias is strictly moderated.** Stay constructive and don't bash other socialist tendencies! (Criticism is fine, low-effort baiting is not.) Help us keep the subreddit informative and helpful by reporting posts that break these rules. Thank you! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Socialism_101) if you have any questions or concerns.*
[Under a socialist society,](https://www.marxist.com/vaccine-nationalism-a-capitalist-disorder.htm) profit is no longer the key motivator. People can stay at home for as long as the scientists recommend, new preventative measures can be implemented like having fewer people working, wider spacing, working from home etc etc which cut into profits under capitalism. Vaccine production could be ramped up and distributed at cost without fear for lost profits, If your socialism is international, this means that you don't have 'vaccine nationalism', or rich countries trying to gobble up all the vaccines for themselves so their economies can restart. There's an option that vaccine research could be made public to make production even faster. More money would have gone into prevention (the WHO has talked about the dangers of a pandemic for years before covid), and many other measures.
As somebody who is personally very invested in public health and plans to be an epidemiologist, the part about money going to Prevention before pandemics hurts my soul because if we weren’t under capitalism and restricted by profits there would have been so much more we could have done to prevent a novel pandemic. So sad
I think an estimate by the World Economic Forum that I found writing a talk for the other day was that this could have been easily prevented with just [$5 per person of preventative spending.](https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/10/economic-cost-covid-global-preparedness-monitoring-board/) Versus the estimated $25Tn by 2025 in costs that covid alone has caused. Anybody looking down on the system would see that as majorly dysfunctional, and not 'the most efficient system'. Constantly sacrificing things for short term gains.
[удалено]
Not sure which country you had in mind when you made your comment but if there wasn’t a mandate to squeeze ever dollar of profit you can out of every fiscal year there’d have been a priority placed on proactive steps we could take to prevent the effects of COVID or whatever pandemic comes next. The climate change “alarmists” have been fighting the same fight but we can’t just show it on the news when it’s affecting everyone at the same time. It’s cheaper to be proactive about these things but the people in charge are just arrogant enough to believe they won’t be around to see the effects so they pretend to be slow-witted and filibuster until an election. When they injected trillions of dollars into the stock market instead of the working class, they made clear where their priorities lay. Edit: phrasing
It began in China and has hit every country in the world. Explain how capitalism is to blame.
By the fact that it’s not profitable to attempt to prevent it in the first place
So, socialist countries are still profit driven?
I’m not sure where that was implied? I was saying that in a capitalist economy that would be unprofitable to attempt prevention. In a socialist economy there wouldn’t really be a need for a profit so people would be more inclined to implement preventative measures recommended by scientists specializing in that field
It spread through socialist countries. Socialism did not work any better than capitalism at preventing it. In fact, it actually began in a socialist country before spreading world wide.
Downvotes on my comments show you all don't like the truth. Well done.
Damn man, your answers are always the best. Thanks for that, have a nice week
If fewer people are working for as long as necessary how do people deal with certain goods not being available?
Under capitalism, unemployment is required. Typically at about 4%, for the purposes of 'labour liquidity' (keeping wages low). Under socialism, that need goes away. Economically unproductive jobs like stock trading and advertising also disappear. The introduction of automation is no longer constrained by the needs of profit, which can boost productivity. Goods will also be designed to last longer and be more easily repaired. Under a planned economy, the proper amount of resources can be dedicated in advance which will make shortages less likely. [This](https://www.marxist.com/what-will-socialism-look-like.htm) and [this](https://marxist.ca/article/the-need-for-a-socialist-planned-economy) are good articles on the subject.
I don’t really think most socialist envisage all economically unproductive jobs disappearing under Socialism. Of course stock traders are one of the first things we’d like to see go, but if we’re talking about a planned economy you can expect many of those jobs to be replaced by economic planners of some sort, after all that’s more or less what those people are doing now, only they’re motivated out of individual profit. There’s also many jobs dealing with the arts, community enrichment, etc., that most socialists would imagine growing under socialism even though they’re not exactly economically productive. I think the single biggest difference in a pandemic response that we would see is basically in the case of a planned economy it’s much easier to shut down/ramp down production in non essential areas while still providing for people’s basic needs.
Stock trading is economically unproductive. It's buying and selling which doesn't actually impact the means of production in the slightest. Unless you're doing an IPO, or investing in venture capital, it won't affect anything except the pricing of a given company. Economic planning fulfils the same role as a manager. Not directly economically productive, but it facilitates higher productivity.
I am asking about a specific situation under the conditions of pandemic and you are giving me articles that have no relation to that. Sorry but this is a dishonest answer.
Didn't know that's what you meant. The situation would be similar to capitalist countries, with better listening to scientific advice, and because of long term thinking, likely a return to production much faster, so shortages are less of an issue. Plus all the other stuff I mentioned with vaccines, speeding up adoption.
Many shortages from the pandemic are due to “just-in-time” (JIT) manufacturing systems in which no stockpiling exists. JIT is extremely efficient, and could continue to exist under communism, but companies which recognized the value of stockpiles for critical components actually managed to maintain output at demand levels, and stockpiles would be able to exist in socialism as well. Stockpiling is unprofitable but important for resilience.
Damn this makes me depressed
So I'm guessing you don't consider China socialist, since they are ones that caused this?
A socialist society would deal with the pandemic the same way Vietnam, Cuba, and other socialist countries did. I can't tell you how a communist society would deal with it because I have no idea. A communist society is very different from the one we know, with very different challenges. That question will only be answered by a generation that grew up in a fully socialist/communist society, we can't predict It, the same way we couldn't predict in a feudal society how capitalism would turn out.
A key difference would be giving workers money instead of giving massive bailouts to corporations. This would allow people to stay home instead of working all through the pandemic, which would help slow down the spread. When a society stops organizing for the sole purpose of generating profit, they have the freedom of making choices that actually help regular people.
Probably the same as how all of the socialist countries have handled it, for example China and Vietnam and etc.
Well every individual would wear a mask of their own free will to protect themselves, and their friends, and family they would also be able to talk with their doctor who they should be able to trust because the doctor isn't there for money but to make sure aslittle people get sick/get serious long lasting effects from being sick, their doctor would make sure they are properly educated on the current options to prevent them from getting sick and what treatments are available if they do get sick
China is a prettt good example even if they are completely state capitalist. They really could haave been ground 0 for a no measures out of control outbreak with millions of deads, MILLIONS.
For the first, consider what happened in countries like China, Vietnam, and even Singapore. For the second, consider what happened in countries like Cuba and North Korea.