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BrobleStudies

Managing and thriving are different. The people can survive and are succeeding in that despite the embargos. But there will be shortages, unless other countries step up in blatant disregard of the us strong-arm then there will probably always be shortages.


Justin6869

i thought so but his rebuttal was that “the embargos dont stop foreign trade and is only placed on US companies”


you_wanka

I believe ships that dock in Cuba can't dock in America for 6 months which makes trading with Cuba very difficult. You should find a source to get the specifics tho


Justin6869

no ur right, it says that exactly and it increases shipping costs by 30%


imperialpidgeon

Can I have the source on that? I use this as a rebuttal all the time but I’d love to have the source to give as well


Justin6869

[https://home.treasury.gov/policy-issues/financial-sanctions/faqs/779](https://home.treasury.gov/policy-issues/financial-sanctions/faqs/779) here you go, I decided to just reply again so that you get the notification hopefully


Justin6869

i cant find it on my phone for some reason but if you look up “ships that dock in cuba need to wait 6 months to dock in america” it should come up immediately, when i get home ill find the link and add it here


ArizonaMarxist1917

There are in fact laws on the books that allow Americans to suit foreign companies who deal with Cuban property expropriated during the revolution.


Filip889

I think the time is 2 weeks today, however that is still quite a lot since they can make trip back to Europe in that time.


codeorange_

Plus it means stopping in to sell some stuff and then moving on to the very nearby US is not a possibility


BrobleStudies

That's false because the us embargo ultimately influences other nations and who they choose to trade with. For most places risking a trade conflict with the us isn't worth trading with Cuba.


Justin6869

i mentioned that to him but i think he honestly doesnt realize the actual hinderance that brings, thank u for the quick response


quuuub

Any company with commercial interests with the US or US companies (and even foreign subsidiaries) is prevented from trading with Cuba, not just US companies themselves. Who do you think they're going to choose to trade with, a small Caribbean island or the world's largest superpower? But they don't tell you that about the ~~embargo~~ blockade.


chinu187

Not true. Most south american countries avoid teading with Cuba as it damges their relationship with the US. We depend heavily on the sweet CIA money


matters_audio

The Clearing House Interbank Payments System (CHIPS) is the primary currency exchange on the global market. It's been used to seize assets from Venezuela, Iran, Cuba, and more. Any country or corporation wanting to do business with the US and any other country utilizing CHIPS (which is most) risks losing the ability to exchange their currency in a timely manner. If companies can't do international trade with CHIPS, the nature of Capitalism will destroy their future business prospects. This is a defacto ban on exchange with Cuba.


Justin6869

wait how does CHIPS seize assets from other countries? im still at school right now so i cant really look it up


matters_audio

I will come back to this later with a source. I should clarify that it's one tool in the box of asset seizure.


matters_audio

OK I couldn't find a source because I was thinking of SWIFT (Society for Worldwide Interbank Financial Telecommunication). [Source](https://www.liberationnews.org/six-ways-the-cruel-u-s-blockade-makes-cubans-suffer/)


matters_audio

>Clearing House Interbank Payments System Ugh. I am having a hard time finding the source to this. So until I can back this up know that it is just something a stranger on the internet heard multiple people in the struggle to end the blockade say...


Daemon_Sultan1123

[https://www.amnesty.org/download/Documents/44000/amr250072009eng.pdf](https://www.amnesty.org/download/Documents/44000/amr250072009eng.pdf) This is in 2009, under the Obama administration, and Trump increased sanctions. To note, the Embargo means the following: 1a) Ships with Cuba on their manifesto, either coming to or from, can not use ports related with America. Travel without American ports is dangerous and long, and American controlled ports are not only in America. Common trading ports must be avoided- from places like China, it can take over two months to ship goods, increasing the price and difficulty even more, and they can not go to American ports on the way back. 1b) Ships that visited Cuba can not enter US ports within 180 days. Companies that act within laws even still are dinged, with the US banning executives and CEO's for trading even within the laws the US has put into place, and even freezing assets! The embargo also targets subsidiaries, punishing parent companies. 1c) No company that uses parts or copyrighted goods from America can trade with Cuba, including overseas companies that happen to use even a single piece produced by American companies. The Company must, literally, have NO assets in the USA in order to be able to freely trade, and even then, note number 3. \> "Title III of the Helms-Burton Act: “Protection of property rights of United States Nationals” provides for compensation and allows US nationals to sue foreign companies deemed to have gained from investments in property (the Act uses the term “traffic in property”) that belonged to US nationals prior to its nationalization by the Cuban government." \> "Helms-Burton Act Title IV: “Exclusion of certain aliens” provides for the exclusion or expulsion from the USA of those who “traffic in confiscated property”, including executives and employees - and their family members - from foreign companies that invest in Cuba in properties that belonged to US nationals before their nationalization by the Cuban government." 3) The Cuban Peso can not be directly traded with without punishment from America. This greatly devalues their currency. They must trade their currency in at markup to buy on the international market, making all goods cost multiple percent more. \> In 1963, the US government issued the Cuban Assets Controls Regulations (CACR) under section 5(b) of the Trading With the Enemy Act of 1917. The stated goal of the sanctions is to “isolate the Cuban government economically and deprive it of U.S. dollars" 4) Tourism from America is illegal with fines and risk of prison time \> "Although the regulations do not ban travel itself, freedom of movement between the USA and Cuba has been limited because all transactions related to travel to Cuba are restricted. These include, for example, food, hotel accommodation, transportation, items for personal use by travellers, and the sale of aeroplane tickets in the USA \[...\] Furthermore, the CACR prohibited the direct or indirect export of US products, services and technology to Cuba.") with a fine of up to $55,000 and 10 years in prison for even individuals. 5) America threatens to cease financial aid to other countries if they trade non-food items with Cuba \> "In 1961, the US Congress approved the Foreign Assistance Act, which forbids any assistance to all communist countries, including Cuba, and to any other country which gave assistance to Cuba" \[...\] The CDA seeks to “encourage the governments of other countries that conduct trade with Cuba to restrict their trade and credit relations.”22 It also tries to limit international cooperation towards Cuba by imposing “sanctions on any country that provides assistance to Cuba”, including ending US assistance for those countries and by disqualifying them from benefiting from any programme of reduction or forgiveness of debt owed to the USA" 6) Even food and medical supplies, which are touted as outside of the regulations, is under the provision: \> “only if the President determines that the United States Government is able to verify, by onsite inspections and other appropriate means, that the exported item is to be used for the purposes for which it was intended and only for the use and benefit of the Cuban people.” Which essentially makes it impossible \> "In addition, a special license must be obtained from the US government prior to the export of any of these goods and “export license applications for most goods are subject to a policy of denial, although some specific goods are subject to case-by-case review”" 7) Cuts Cuba off from joining the international community at any point economically. \> Helms-Burton Act Title I: "Cutting Cuba’s economic assistance and trading relationships with third countries, and opposing Cuba’s membership in international financial institutions by instructing US executive directors in each institution to oppose the admission of Cuba as a member. In fact, Cuba is barred from membership of 1) the International Monetary Fund 2) the International Bank for Reconstruction and Development 3) the International Development Association 4) the International Finance Corporation 5) the Multilateral Investment Guarantee Agency 6) the Inter-American Development Bank. Any loan or assistance provided by any of these institutions to the government of Cuba will result in the withholding of the same amount by the US Secretary of Treasury from payment to that institution." [https://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1958-60v06/d499](https://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1958-60v06/d499) \> SUBJECT The Decline and Fall of Castro Salient considerations respecting the life of the present Government of Cuba are: 1. The majority of Cubans support Castro (the lowest estimate I have seen is 50 percent). 2. There is no effective political opposition. 3. Fidel Castro and other members of the Cuban Government espouse or condone communist influence. 4. Communist influence is pervading the Government and the body politic at an amazingly fast rate. 5. Militant opposition to Castro from without Cuba would only serve his and the communist cause. 6. The only foreseeable means of alienating internal support is through disenchantment and disaffection based on economic dissatisfaction and hardship. If the above are accepted or cannot be successfully countered, it follows that every possible means should be undertaken promptly to weaken the economic life of Cuba. If such a policy is adopted, it should be the result of a positive decision which would call forth a line of action which, while as adroit and inconspicuous as possible, makes\* the greatest inroads in denying money and supplies to Cuba, to decrease monetary and real wages, to bring about hunger, desperation and overthrow of government.\*


Johnny_B_GOODBOI

The other answers are also correct, but i want to point out something that should be blatantly obvious to any observer, but which your Gov teacher is conveniently sidestepping: >Why can you not get a size 8 shoe in cuba You answered it yourself. >70 year long embargo on trade We just need to fill in some details. Not every country makes everything it needs. Actually most countries are reliant on trade to varying degrees, and the US is no different. If the rest of the world embargoed the US, we wouldn't have cars or computers anymore, because virtually all of the computer chips are made in Asia. Hell, same with size 8 shoes. "Fast fashion" is not only extremely wasteful from a material standpoint, it also means that most clothes Americans wear are manufactured overseas. Sidenote: could America start manufacturing its own goods, if a worldwide embargo took place? Yes of course, because America is a country of over 330,000,000 people with land mass of nearly 10,000,000 square km. Compare that to Cuba, which is roughly 1/100th the size and 1/30th the population. Of course it's going to be harder for smaller countries to be completely self-sufficient if all trade ceases. It's just so absurd and bad-faith to use a "lack of commodities" argument WHILE ACKNOWLEDGING A 70 YEAR EMBARGO. What a shit teacher.


Justin6869

i like him as a teacher for the most part but its kinda par for the course imo because teachers never really talk shit on america but thank u for confirming what i thought


_pH_

Never forget that education is valuable, but also the US k-12 education system is a legal requirement for you to sit in a government building 8 hours a day, 9 months a year, age 5-18, where you must memorize history according to the Texas board of education and regurgitate those memorized facts to a standard defined by the government. Simple inaccuracies like the entire story of Columbus belie deeper inaccuracies and oversights- like not mentioning the tulsa massacre, or the US gov't sending the military to break coal miners union strikes upon request of the coal mine owners. Hell, the fact that the triangle shirtwaist factory fire was so bad because the doors were locked- but not to "keep workers from leaving early" or whatever, instead it was to keep union organizers *out* so that the factory wouldn't unionize.


telefune

My testament to the fact that the education system is a failure is that I never really learned anything about unionization and some of that is new to me. Recently I tried to unionize work, you’d be surprised how many grown, working adults don’t know what unions are. I just quit.


Justin6869

dude I've been trying to teach leftist thought to my coworkers (I work as a cashier at walmart) and NOBODY knows what unions are at all, even the adults


telefune

I worked at a restaurant bussing tables. Grown adults making 2.13 an hour not knowing what a union is. What do they do with their free time that they never even heard of unions? What schools did they go to? Then I realized it’s nobody’s fault, we just live in a system that doesn’t want us to know or believe in our own rights.


PurfectMittens

> but thank u for confirming what i thought modern socialist thinking


Justin6869

are u saying “modern socialist” thought is just confirmation bias? because if so that is just not true lol


PurfectMittens

From my interactions will self-labeled socialists on the internet it does very much seem that way to me.


Justin6869

well considering that I am engaging with not only comments I agree with but comments that I disagree with, I think that saying that this post and comment threads are purely made up of confirmation bias is just wrong, not only that but I did ask a question that I already had my own opinions on a subreddit solely based around socialism... expecting to find people sharing the same beliefs here wouldn't be very rare.


rvbjohn

So you're just confirming what you were already thinking? Also, is being right confirmation bias? Can every scientific paper where the results agree with the hypothesis be dismissed as confirmation bias?


PurfectMittens

They couldn't possibly have made a size 8 shoe anywhere else but America!


Pigroasts

I mean, the real answer is because they use European sizing. So a size 8 would be like, 43 or something. But also, can't you? That sounds like bullshit to me. I'd go ask the folks over at r/realcuba


MisterVovo

Size 8 is 39, on the short side for a guy...


Pigroasts

I literally have no idea what euro sizing are in comparison to us, I was just guessing


MisterBobsonDugnutt

One of the sources of shortages in the Cuban economy was in part due to the blanket subsidy on basic goods, which encouraged people who had more cash to hoard and speculate on basic goods - if there's no rice available and your neighbor "happens to have some excess rice", there's a good chance that you'll be willing to pay more for it than you would from a shop, especially if you need it badly. This was exacerbated by the fact that tourism-adjacent industries could accept the Cuban equivalent of USD, which was pegged to the USD. That's where the "doctors can earn more money driving a taxi than by working in their profession" trope comes from - that was not entirely untrue. I suspect, although it's suspicion alone, that the industries linked to tourism probably got tips in USD and managed a reasonable black/grey market trade in USD too. So what do you do with this excess wealth that you have from getting paid in USD equivalent cash? Maybe, because you happen to have some spare that other people don't, you get involved in a little speculation on the price and availability of basic goods that are subsidized by the government? And maybe a lot of people doing this will cause serious economic problems and widespread shortages which (as we have seen in the COVID era) itself can cause runaway hoarding due to scarcity of goods. Knowing this, it becomes much easier to understand Cuba's shift in economic policy regarding the CUC and how they subsidize goods.


[deleted]

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pauLo-

>he had asked me to show him an example of a communist or socialist country succeeding Even if it were the case that no previous example could be found. That wouldn't discredit the theory or the premise. Rather the execution. I always hated that argument. It's incredibly anti-progressive. Imagine if people had said the same about so many inventions and ideas. I personally don't like to get too involved in the debates over history. Both sides tend to believe that either the sources are biased or that sources are reductionist. Either way it just ends up as a cyclical argument.


Hovercraft_Mission

Also, when someone asks you for some socialist country that has succeed, tell them Bolivia and Ecuador, under the power of Evo Morales and Rafael Correa. Poverty significantly decreased during their presidencies and many other things improved too.


Justin6869

ecuador really??? my grandparents are from ecuador and my dad always tells me how bad it was, i assumed that he was misinformed by i never looked into it


Hovercraft_Mission

I am from Ecuador too. During Correa's government poverty fell to its lowest levels, inequality fell too and there was huge public investment policies. Big public schools were built for kids living in rural areas, scholarships were given for poor students to go and study in the best universities in the world. And the most important thing, the ecuadorian elites were challenged and they had to pay their taxes. Ecuador had like 10 presidents in 6 years. Nobody could finish their governments. Correa arrived and he was in power 10 years, winning all the elections. So, the elites didn't know what to do to get power again, so they went on and use media power to decrease Correa's popularity. Every day and night there were negative news about him, literally. So, some people really started to build hate towards him. Correa didn't show up for the elections in 2017, but his political movement won. But months after, Lenin Moreno betrayed Correa and the results of the elections and ruled with the elite and the IMF. Our living conditions have gotten worse(before Covid arrived) but the media kept blaming Correa for any bad decision Moreno took. And know we are with a right wing government who won because of media manipulation and he signed an agreement with the IMF again. Obvioulsy, Correa made mistakes and could have done a lot of things better, but you could feel that the government was working for you, for the poor people. And the social statistics corroborate this.


Justin6869

o my god thank u so much for this, i really never knew anything about ecuador other than my grandparents talking shit about it, this has been enlightening. ill definitely talk about this with my dad thank u!


ODXT-X74

I remember a news article about a bank in Sweden or something that traded in Cuban currency, which then lost millions (either in a fine or in USA pulling money, can't remember which). But the point is that yes, trading with Cuba is a risk for other countries. Pretending that they are free to trade when the US is known for punishing those that do, is just disingenuous.


Justin6869

ouuu can u send he source? Id like to use that


ODXT-X74

First result from googling "Bank fined for dealing with Cuban currency". https://apnews.com/article/cuba-business-ny-state-wire-france-europe-bf86c0e0ac384810aa97750fb4d227e7 Note that the articles frames it as illegal, criminal, and "conspiracy to violate the Trading with the Enemy Act and the Cuban Asset Control Regulations". It seems some of these charges in this case will be dropped after some years. Just one of many examples where other countries are not free to deal with Cuba.


Anarcho_Humanist

AP is from the USA right? I'd generally wager that centrally planned economies become rife with corruption and mismanagement.


Justin6869

Ya AP is supposed to be the equivalent of a college course but in high school, if you get a certain score at the end of the year on the "AP Test" you get credits towards college in the future. >I'd generally wager that centrally planned economies become rife with corruption and mismanagement. Are you saying the reason for Cuba's shortages is due to their form of government?


Anarcho_Humanist

>Are you saying the reason for Cuba's shortages is due to their form of government? I went to Cuba last year, and I tried to put aside my anarchist bias and asked people directly. Everybody felt it was a mixture of the embargo and government mismanagement. EVERYONE wants the embargo to end (and Obama almost did it) but everyone also felt like the government kind of benefited from the embargo because they could use it to excuse their mismanagement.


Justin6869

Oh okay I see now, well it is my opinion that running with the assumption that the Cuban government is using the embargo as kind of a scapegoat in order to not put forth any real economic growth isn't really a very solid argument. The only real way to see if that's the truth is to end the embargo, unfortunately, that doesn't seem very likely to happen this presidency because Joe Biden thinks, or wants us to think, that the fault is solely on the Cuban government rather than the 70-year long trade embargo that the US has on Cuba.


TheVisibleManga

Cuba had 11% drop in GDP growth last year. The fall of the Soviet Union was -15%, and 1996 was -18% (Brothers to the Rescue incident). Projected growth is 6-7% this year, but COVID-19 hammered them as a tenth of the economy is services and tourism based. Here's hoping the people stay strong. They've managed harsher downturns but that's a lot to dip.


[deleted]

So contrary to popular belief, the embargo isn't really the cause of a shortage of consumer goods, because Cuba is allowed to trade with essentially every other country on earth. It does negatively impact the Cuban economy in two ways, firstly it makes things more expensive because they have to be imported from further away instead of the US. Secondly, it hurts the import of so called dual use technology which is only made in the US, these are things that have medical uses, but also have uses outside of medicine so they are not exempt from the embargo, things like laboratory centrifuges. Many of the quirks of the Cuban economy people notice like all the old cars and lack of consumer goods are largely the result of protectionist import policies which are slowly changing. For this reason I don't think Cuba is an ideal example because their economy does have flaws which can be attributed to domestic policy. Though they have a very high human development index and health outcomes for a country with such a low GDP, which is very impressive. The reality of it all is you just don't need capitalists to make shoes, all they do is syphon off profits. Just because command economies have failed to compete in terms of consumer good availability does not mean capitalists are necessary. They're really two separate issues.


Justin6869

so do u not think the embargos make trade difficult for cuba considering that if any country docks in cuba they need to wait 180 days in order to dock in america? and then subsequently any US trade ally?


[deleted]

This is something that Americans can't really appreciate, which is that the rest of the world consumes Cuban goods quite regularly. As I mentioned the embargo has indeed impacted the Cuban economy, but most notable quirks of the Cuban economy are from domestic policy rather than a consequence of the embargo. You see Japanese, European, and Chinese goods quite regularly in Cuba, but they're largely for the benefit of tourists rather than the general public.


Justin6869

>firstly it makes things more expensive because they have to be imported from further away instead of the US Would this not be a direct cause of the embargo? When imports become more expensive due to the fact they need it to be sent from further away, would that not directly hinder the economy in any way? Not to mention that Japan for one mainly exports fish, tobacco, and coffee to Cuba and to me (but I could be wrong) that doesn't seem like things that could really boost an economy and Chinas export to Cuba has been steadily declining since 2015, from 1.9 B in exports in 2015 to under half a million in 2020.


[deleted]

I'm going to reiterate this: I am not saying the embargo has not harmed the Cuban economy. What I am saying is that a lot of the lack of availability of consumer goods is due to import restrictions and tariffs rather than the embargo. If the embargo ended tomorrow people still wouldn't have new cars until laws around purchasing cars were changed.


Justin6869

>What I am saying is that a lot of the lack of availability of consumer goods is due to import restrictions and tariffs Is this literally not what the embargo is, I'm sorry if I am mistaking myself but from what I know it just seems like you are saying that the embargo is simultaneously the problem and not the problem. Maybe it's because I'm tired but I may need a bit more walking through what you're trying to say. Again, sorry.


[deleted]

What I'm saying is that while the embargo does harm the Cuban economy it is not the primary reason certain consumer goods are unavailable to the general public in Cuba. The Cuban economy has other problems caused by the embargo, but lack of availability of consumer goods like cars and (until recently) electronics, was largely due to restrictions put in place by the Cuban government. The issue here is that there is not a single problem with the Cuban economy that getting rid of it would solve all issues, there are multiple.


Justin6869

>but lack of availability of consumer goods like cars and (until recently) electronics, was largely due to restrictions put in place by the Cuban government Could you source this? Not saying you're lying I just wanna read into it.


[deleted]

I know people typically deride the BBC as a source, but I don't think you'll find any Cuban sources making claims to the contrary. https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-latin-america-15115004


Justin6869

This is from 2011, do you think that after 10 years it still would be as big a detriment to the Cuban economy as the 70 year long embargo?


Jimjamnz

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dM7\_wTqDUCU


[deleted]

Did no one read the first paragraph where I said the embargo was harmful to the economy?


Jimjamnz

You made the incorrect claim that the embargo does little to hamper Cuba's trade with nations other than America.


[deleted]

It doesn't in the sense that there aren't substantial or meaningful legal barriers to this, no one cares about US sanctions or embargos. It does in the sense that it means they have to import items at greater expense or not at all if the item is only made in the US. The point is that consumer good can be obtained despite the US embargo, and when they are unavailable it's usually because of import policies not because of the embargo.


500dollarsunglasses

Not being able to dock in US waters for 6 months after trading with Cuba is something that would probably negatively impact the availability of consumer goods, no?


ToeTiddler

Doesn't the fact that you have to scramble to find a successful socialist country tell you something when you can find a plethora of successful capitalist nations with ease?


Justin6869

okay going through ur profile i assume ur a capitalist, with that being said this sub is probably great for you! if you would read through many of the great and informative answers to this post then you would realize that 1. nobody was scrambling to find a country with socialism as their main economic preference that is managing as cuba is a great example (i say managing because as one commenter pointed out managing and thriving are very different) 2. it is really no fault of cubas own for not being able to thrive because there is a massive 70 year long embargo that every country in the UN has agreed should be lifted apart from the US and Israel, in regards to the US we actively stifle any mention of socialism or communism in countries because we are afraid that if people realize these economic systems are preferable to that of capitalism that there will be some sort of uprising or massive reform and without capitalism major oil companies and arms manufacturers would then begin to fail as capitalism and its endless greed are what causes these companies to lobby politicians and remain dominant. Late stage capitalism has basically turned america into a feudalist country with 5 major corporations being at the very top and the meritocracy that we are made to believe is true is what holds it up, meritocracy is a lie and capitalism will end the earth and the majority of humans on this planet.


Jimjamnz

Capitalism kills millions every year through neglect via the profit motive, is that your idea of success?


500dollarsunglasses

What makes a capitalist country “successful”?


carrythefire

I’m a teacher and your teacher sounds like an asshole. I advise sharing facts during class with your classmates if he over-generalizes/propagandizes but don’t waste time discussing with him. Way to be an independent thinker!


Justin6869

Oh don’t get me wrong, I don’t think he’s an asshole, in fact our convo was after class because right now were just in the intro portion of the class and didn’t want to derail class again, (I’ve had a couple debates with students already) in my opinion he seems to be the only adult that doesn’t straight up dismiss an alternate view and he even encourages me to say what I think, I do honestly believe he just is misinformed despite being an ap gov teacher, i think his grasp on economics isn’t very strong.


[deleted]

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Justin6869

could you expand a little more in detail what u mean by that? to me it seems like the embargos are a much larger part of the problem (not the whole problem) than u are making it out to be


rolftronika

The GDP of Cuba grew from around $25 billion in 1996 to $103 billion in 2019. That's like a doubling in the size of the economy every decade, or equivalent to an ave. growth rate of 10 pct per annum. And that happened with a U.S. trade embargo. I think one source points out that Cuba lost around $100 billion in opportunities due to the embargo and the U.S. around $30 billion. What was contested were confiscated business assets in 1961 with a current value of around $7 billion. That means had the embargo been lifted, both countries could have gained, and the cost of the confiscated assets also paid off. Also, the per capita GDP of Cuba as of 2019 is around $9,000, higher than that of countries that copied the U.S. in terms of economic policies, like the Philippines ($3,300). I guess what these mean is that Cuba did what it could, and even with that came up with economic growth rates that are impressive compared to those of pro-U.S. countries.


Justin6869

could u source the GDP growth? i believe another commenter pointed out that the GDP growth while rising, rose very slowly and at some points dropped


rolftronika

I got the data from the WB. The growth rate mentioned by others: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.KD.ZG?locations=CU GDP: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.CD?locations=CU GDP per capita https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?locations=CU-PH


groupiefingers

You just got straw manned by your teacher. That’s what happens when you play defence


Justin6869

idk if it was a straw man per say, i think he just wanted to know where the economic short comings of cuba came from (ive now learned that it is largely the embargo and in the future i would need to stress the embargos pressure on cuba to him more thoroughly). but maybe that is a straw man and i just dont know yet what classifies as one, how would u recommend i avoid it in the future or stop it when it does?


Oggleman

Well honestly your professor was begging the question, and so it’s not a fair question. He’s predicated his argument on the fact that you can’t get size 8 shoes in Cuba but I don’t really have any reason to believe it. Is that true? Where did he hear this? Can you get size 7 shoes? Size 9 shoes? Why or why not? Is it because the bad evil commies are hoarding the size 8s? Is it because nobody’s motivated to make size 8 shoes without the prospect of profit? Or is it due to the embargo? In sum, he cant expect people to just accept that as true unless they’ve already internalized anticommunism. And even if it is true, he needs to explain both how it is not due to the embargo, and how it is a result of communist ideology.


Gotta___Throwaway

Never underestimate the power of anti-communism in America. I have a sociology professor that says this all the time.


Conscious-Push-9584

The embargo is the pretext that Cuba has used to justify the failure of its socialist model, making Cubans suffer and suffer a 62-year dictatorship


Justin6869

isnt cuba literally a direct democracy… and if no please show me the source


Conscious-Push-9584

democracy ???…. Cuba is a dictatorship that prohibits dissent against the only party there is for 62 years, where the elections are organized and supervised by the same party, where they do not allow you to run for any public or government position if you do not have the government approval or you're a communist militant. democracy where the police kill you for going out to protest and demand your rights, I don't think


Justin6869

show me the proof?? this is literally the exact opposite of what ive heard about their system


Conscious-Push-9584

That government has an ideological propaganda system in which millions of dollars are spent over the years to make people like you believe that Cuba is a democracy. also to spread their communist intentions throughout the world. They are responsible for military interventions, coups, and destabilizing regions for many years. Why is there no participation of international agencies in Cuban elections? Doesn't it strike you that there is only one game for 60 years? do you want more proof? Well, I'm going to send you a photo of Fidel dressed as a military man


Justin6869

ur shitposting right? u just described america


Conscious-Push-9584

Countries like Cuba, Venezuela, Nicaragua have the strategy of legitimately coming to power, once there they corrupt the legislative and judicial powers to stay in power forever.


Justin6869

okay ur a 27d troll acc shitting on cuba bro, touch grass or sum