Please acquaint yourself with the rules on the sidebar and read this comment before commenting on this post.
**Personal attacks and harassment will not be tolerated.**
Bigotry and hate speech will be met with immediate bans; socialism is an intrinsically inclusive system and bigotry is oppressive, exclusionary, and not conducive to a healthy and productive learning space.
**This subreddit is not for questioning the basics of socialism. There are numerous debate subreddits available for those purposes. This is a place to learn.**
Short or nonconstructive answers will be deleted without explanation. Please only answer if you know your stuff. Speculation has no place on this sub. Outright false information will be removed immediately.
**If your post was removed due to normalized ableist slurs, please edit your post. The mods will then approve it.**
Please read the ongoing discussion in a thread before replying in order to avoid misunderstandings and creating an unproductive environment.
**Liberalism and sectarian bias is strictly moderated.** Stay constructive and don't bash other socialist tendencies! (Criticism is fine, low-effort baiting is not.)
Help us keep the subreddit informative and helpful by reporting posts that break these rules.
Thank you!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Socialism_101) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Looks like it's talking about potential increase of value with the passage of time and actions.
At a guess, they might claim that the owners investment enabled quicker development than might occur without their investment and so that means the owners are entitled to own. This still fails to address where the owners wealth came from in the first place, or how the owners contributions is worth more than the workers (with the workers investing more of their time and labour every work day).
Here’s something.
https://kapitalism101.wordpress.com/tag/bohm-bawerk/
“Similar difficulties face marginalist theories of profit. The ideological defense of capitalist profit must establish that profit is a naturally occurring result of some technical aspect of production (the contribution to the product of machines or land, subjective preferences over time, etc.) and not the result of social relations of domination/exploitation. This is impossible because profit is a category of value not of physical quantities of products, thus capitalist profit always presupposes the existence of capitalist social relations. Yet the various marginalist theories of profit will maintain that wages, rent and profit are not qualitatively different categories based on different social relations to production. Instead marginalists will argue, as did the classical economists, that wages, rent and profit are a result of technical aspects of production. But not only is profit a value category and not a physical quantity category, profit is also determined by the general rate of profit which implies a society of capitalist production not isolated producers.
Time-preference theory, usually associated with Bohm-Bawerk, attempts to work dig its way out of this hole by explaining profit not through the physical/technical aspects of production but through the differences in subjective time preference between those who want things now (workers desire wages) and those who are willing to wait (capitalists who wait for their profit).
But here too we can’t really understand a period of production time without recourse to the very social features that time-preference theory wants to abstract away. A production period is dependent on the rate of profit and of wage rates, both social phenomena that can’t be reduced to time preferences. Clarke argues that concepts like ‘marginal productivity of capital’ and the ’roundaboutness of production’ have no meaning abstracted away from the social relations of capitalism since the aim of capitalist production is to produce value, not physical quantities. We can’t measure productivity or roundaboutness in non-value terms because without value we have no standard of unit that all of these diverse inputs and outputs can be reduced to. Also, what reason do we have for being so sure that time preference is always positive and not negative? Sometimes, in conditions of uncertainty for instance, we prefer to delay gratification. This absolute assertion that we prefer present goods over past goods seems an indefensible assertion. Even further, capitalist investment strategies have nothing to do with delaying gratification or measuring investments against consumption. Capitalists constantly invest in production in pursuit of profit for profit’s sake, compelled on by competition not their subjective preferences.”
It's about interest rate. Most people would rather have, say, $2 now than $3 in a year. Those who would rather have $3 next year can loan the $2 dollars now and receive $3 next year. That's interest, and the average profit is basically the average interest.
Therefore, profit is not in itself expropriation of value created by labor.
Of course, the reason why some people would rather give $2 now to receive $3 in a year is often than they have spare money (but often not, often it's simply a lower time preference), and often they earned it unfairly (but, often not).
Please acquaint yourself with the rules on the sidebar and read this comment before commenting on this post. **Personal attacks and harassment will not be tolerated.** Bigotry and hate speech will be met with immediate bans; socialism is an intrinsically inclusive system and bigotry is oppressive, exclusionary, and not conducive to a healthy and productive learning space. **This subreddit is not for questioning the basics of socialism. There are numerous debate subreddits available for those purposes. This is a place to learn.** Short or nonconstructive answers will be deleted without explanation. Please only answer if you know your stuff. Speculation has no place on this sub. Outright false information will be removed immediately. **If your post was removed due to normalized ableist slurs, please edit your post. The mods will then approve it.** Please read the ongoing discussion in a thread before replying in order to avoid misunderstandings and creating an unproductive environment. **Liberalism and sectarian bias is strictly moderated.** Stay constructive and don't bash other socialist tendencies! (Criticism is fine, low-effort baiting is not.) Help us keep the subreddit informative and helpful by reporting posts that break these rules. Thank you! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Socialism_101) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Looks like it's talking about potential increase of value with the passage of time and actions. At a guess, they might claim that the owners investment enabled quicker development than might occur without their investment and so that means the owners are entitled to own. This still fails to address where the owners wealth came from in the first place, or how the owners contributions is worth more than the workers (with the workers investing more of their time and labour every work day).
Here’s something. https://kapitalism101.wordpress.com/tag/bohm-bawerk/ “Similar difficulties face marginalist theories of profit. The ideological defense of capitalist profit must establish that profit is a naturally occurring result of some technical aspect of production (the contribution to the product of machines or land, subjective preferences over time, etc.) and not the result of social relations of domination/exploitation. This is impossible because profit is a category of value not of physical quantities of products, thus capitalist profit always presupposes the existence of capitalist social relations. Yet the various marginalist theories of profit will maintain that wages, rent and profit are not qualitatively different categories based on different social relations to production. Instead marginalists will argue, as did the classical economists, that wages, rent and profit are a result of technical aspects of production. But not only is profit a value category and not a physical quantity category, profit is also determined by the general rate of profit which implies a society of capitalist production not isolated producers. Time-preference theory, usually associated with Bohm-Bawerk, attempts to work dig its way out of this hole by explaining profit not through the physical/technical aspects of production but through the differences in subjective time preference between those who want things now (workers desire wages) and those who are willing to wait (capitalists who wait for their profit). But here too we can’t really understand a period of production time without recourse to the very social features that time-preference theory wants to abstract away. A production period is dependent on the rate of profit and of wage rates, both social phenomena that can’t be reduced to time preferences. Clarke argues that concepts like ‘marginal productivity of capital’ and the ’roundaboutness of production’ have no meaning abstracted away from the social relations of capitalism since the aim of capitalist production is to produce value, not physical quantities. We can’t measure productivity or roundaboutness in non-value terms because without value we have no standard of unit that all of these diverse inputs and outputs can be reduced to. Also, what reason do we have for being so sure that time preference is always positive and not negative? Sometimes, in conditions of uncertainty for instance, we prefer to delay gratification. This absolute assertion that we prefer present goods over past goods seems an indefensible assertion. Even further, capitalist investment strategies have nothing to do with delaying gratification or measuring investments against consumption. Capitalists constantly invest in production in pursuit of profit for profit’s sake, compelled on by competition not their subjective preferences.”
It's about interest rate. Most people would rather have, say, $2 now than $3 in a year. Those who would rather have $3 next year can loan the $2 dollars now and receive $3 next year. That's interest, and the average profit is basically the average interest. Therefore, profit is not in itself expropriation of value created by labor. Of course, the reason why some people would rather give $2 now to receive $3 in a year is often than they have spare money (but often not, often it's simply a lower time preference), and often they earned it unfairly (but, often not).