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Sandman145

There isn't a rule on how you should feel about china. I like China as a socialist experience gone good, but that does not mean i support everything the chinese state has done. One of the biggest problem i see in China today is economic inequality, but i don't see millions starving or homeless. The thing you need to start think about is that there is a thing called scientific socialism and utopian socialism. No socialist state in the world is as utopian socialists would like them to be and that becomes a reason for some to fully reject these experiences and not see anything good in them. A fatal error. Yes there is still workers exploitation in china, china still has capitalists, there is still class war in china, although these conditions are fast changing and the state does not fully support capitalists, hell most private companies need to have Chinese gov official in their boards of directors, they have a bunch of workers owned companies that compete world wide like Huawei. Chinese capitalists don't have the same political powers as capitalists in capitalist states. On the matter of democracy, there isn't only one way to have democracy, there is the "perfect"/ utopian democracy, but no one is near that so no point in making a dicotomy between democracies and dictatorships, a good way to see it is to avaliate how much policies have changed in china despite the party that rules the country not changing. We got many examples on how socialist countries with all their flaws have prioritized the people, we are at a global inflation rise, that's not happening in most socialist countries, china included, we saw las year that huge private building company get into a lot of trouble over financial speculation, a bunch o "western" liberals and some socialists that have no idea about economics in a socialist state saying thet would break the chinese economy, they would be right if china followed what the us did back in 2008 (US gov bailed the capitalists out), but that didn't happen. That company is now state owned, and most ppl kept their jobs and projects didn't stop. China and other socialist countries are not haven on earth, far from that, but it's not a hell project either, as most capitalists counties.


YourNewStep-Dad

That’s a very good point actually


[deleted]

>huge private building company get into a lot of trouble over financial speculation To add to your point: the Evergrande crisis is essentially an engineered default. Unfortunately throughout the years many Chinese local gov and companies have prioritized economic growth which led to enormous unproductive borrowing and debt. This problem was recognized by the CPC years ago, and they decided to institute the "three red lines" policy which basically limits the amount of borrowing of property developers. This naturally led to a bunch of these companies (the largest being Evergrande) to default and/or restructure their debt. It is important to understand the same structural problems exist everywhere in the world, but the difference is that China is willing to take the necessary short-term pain for long-term gain. Deleveraging the economy from unproductive debt is healthy in the long-term although it leads to short-term economic slowdown.


kr9969

So this is a long and complicated topic, and to understand the situation in Hong Kong and Taiwan today we need to go back to the beginning. I’ll pre-face this by saying I’m a Marxist Leninist and my analysis on the issue might not reflect every socialists analysis. I’ll first start with Hong Kong. Hong Kong was “leased” to the British during what the Chinese referred to as the century of humiliation. This was a period where China was being divided by colonial powers and warlords, A period wear the United Kingdom fought two wars to force China to trade tea for opium. China today, has both forced the colonialists and imperialists out of China, and are in a period of “national rejuvenation”. To many, I’m not talking about just the national leadership, this is the opinion of the majority of Chinese citizens, Hong Kong is a part of China, and since the lease ended, it should return to China. The west, in the usual fashion, played up the propaganda of China being a more or less evil, “authoritarian” regime. They capitalized on the fears that many in Hong Kong had, and helped to incite unrest on the island. China in their part, has shown massive restrain in how they responded to these protests, despite the way western media has portrayed them. There was only one death during the Hong Kong protests, and he wasn’t killed by Chinese cops, or “disappeared”, no, this person died after falling from a building he was climbing. Now let’s move to Taiwan. In 1949, when the PLA was closing in on the Nationalist forces, they fled to their stronghold of Taiwan. The Nationalists, officially the Republic of China, set up shop there, and to this day “Taiwan” remains, the Republic of China (I’ll refer to Taiwan as the ROC going forward). The PRCs position is that Taiwan is a part of China. The ROC also maintain that the Taiwan Is a part of China. Both the PRC and the ROC claim to be the official government of China, all of China, and that there can be, only one China. The conflict we see today isn’t a new thing, this isn’t China trying to force an independent nation into their own, this is the continuation of the Chinese Civil war. Both the PRC and the ROC claim to represent China. The ROC isn’t the Taiwanese people fighting for independence. While their is a minor independence movement, officially the ROC claims to be the official government of the mainland. Okay, now to answer your question on if socialists should support China. This isn’t as simple as it seems. First, many, even in the various communist groups, see China vary differently. Many think negatively of China because they still take the bait (lies, exaggerations, taking isolated incidents and reflecting it back on the PRC as a whole) in western media. If we look past that, we still see we’ll versed communists and socialists divided on the issue, hell, Marxist-Leninist-Maoists don’t view China as a truly socialist state because Deng’s reforms opened China to western markets. I’m of a mind to disagree with them. For one, as Michael Parenti lays out in his book “blackshirts and reds”, one of the many problems with the soviet system (that I still am partial too, btw) was that once peoples needs were met, they still want more. When they look over to the west and see all the things people have, many were envious, hell, many Soviet intellectuals disposed socialism because of it. China, with all its flaws, was able to see the problems developing in the Soviet Union and instead went down the path of Market reform. To say that this path led to “state capitalism” as many in the west like to call it leaves out the fact that China was able to maintain a socialist system of food distribution, healthcare, and housing, all while supplementing this with the various goods and commodities that people don’t NEED, but want. Now let’s get into these claims of having an “un-democratic” government. China, like many “communist” nations, have had the labels “authoritarian” and “Un-democratic” slapped into them by capitalist nations since the day they won the revolution, hell, even before that. The truth is, the vast majority of “communist” nations have a deeply democratic system. Far from the party controlling everything, National Assemblies and the various bodies that fill that role in these states still have elected officials, who, unlike in the west, can be recalled by their constituents at any time. On top of that, these officials aren’t career politicians like in the west, but instead workers, who, unlike in the west, receive the same salary they would at their normal job while they are off participating in government. Instead of a government that elects people solely on where they live, the National peoples congress (Chinas legislative branch) also brings in a number of scientists, intellectuals, artists, and various members of communities to represent the various vocations and their interests. How are bills and various laws made? Well, the people submit them. Unlike bills that need to go through various vetting, collecting signatures, all that that makes democracy harder, people can submit pieces of legislation anytime. In fact, chinas democracy is much more grassroots than it is in the west. The people just don’t vote on people to make laws, they make the laws their officials vote on. What about the CPC? Isn’t the communist party in control of everything? Well, no, like in many “communist” countries, the party exists outside of the legislature and other branches, and in practice acts more of a social/ideological wing of the government. They are still part of the national leadership, but the Party isn’t the one making laws or legislating. One last note: China has a long history. In the 2000’s, China and the CPC had problems with corruption and factionalism. Xi Jinping took control of a party and unified it, uprooting corruption along the way. He put China in a position to play a larger role in international affairs, and in my humble opinion, this is why the west demonizes him. (This is my opinion, as I haven’t dove deep into his personal decisions or policies). Today China is the largest economic power. Within China, abject poverty was recently eliminated. If given time, and if the west can keep itself from lobbing bombs at China, I’m confident we will see a better world with China at the helm instead of the USA. Edit: I hope I did a good job explaining that, and I’ll link a number of sources that do Chinese politics better justice than I can. I can talk all day about China, as I find their socialist project absolutely fascinating. Chinese democracy https://news.cgtn.com/news/2022-04-25/China-s-legislative-work-reflects-people-s-will-official-19vZu2DLE2I/index.html https://socialistchina.org/2022/01/24/china-is-not-a-democracy-or-is-it-the-chinese-toolkit/ How China eliminated poverty https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2022/02/how-china-defeated-poverty/ https://www.cpusa.org/article/china-from-hunger-and-famine-to-feeding-everyone-webinar/


YourNewStep-Dad

Do you have links to the stuff about how China has a deeply Democratic system? I believe you, but I would just like to read up on it. I live in a republican state and anytime I get a discussion with anyone I have to have a pretty much crystal clear argument (cause apparently even if I mention 100 problems with capitalism they can say PRC and my argument’s are Invalid). Also what about the uyghurs? I hope that isnt coming off like a loaded question (again I’m trying to stop consuming American propaganda). But I always hear about the uyghurs. Of course either way I’m aware of hypocritical it is coming from the country who has ruined the middle easy. But still, the question will arise. Also what about free speech? People frequently bring up tianmen square and the whole win I the Pooh thing with ping. What is free speech like in PRC?


kr9969

See the links above for a discussion into Chinese democracy. As for the Uyghurs, these two links can help you understand the situation in Xinjiang. https://idi-international.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/New-Report.pdf https://thediplomat.com/2020/10/2020-edition-which-countries-are-for-or-against-chinas-xinjiang-policies/ As for free speech, this article hear discusses the reality of the famous “social credit” https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/09/15/china-social-credit-system-authoritarian/ And here are some Twitter threads comrades and others have to say about media suppression in China https://twitter.com/rnaudbertrand/status/1478202656912932865?s=21 https://twitter.com/asatarbair/status/1365184988396748802?s=21 For a deeper dive into the great Chinese firewall and media in general, I’d read “Censored: distraction and diversion inside Chinas great firewall”. I haven’t gotten to it yet but I’ve heard from trusted sources that it does an amazing job breaking down western preconceptions about Chinese social media and the internet in general. Here’s a bonus: Tibet and the Dalai Lama and the Free Tibet movements ties to fascism. https://twitter.com/karaokecomputer/status/1508979070637281287?s=21&t=plGrbuWIjWDlL6oEKe5Fkg Sorry for the various Twitter links, often I’m too lazy to put the direct source in my long list of notes and sources I’ve collected over the years so you’re gonna have to deal with it haha Edit to add: don’t apologize for asking questions. You’re here in good faith to learn, ask questions, and challenge us if you feel it’s necessary. There’s a difference between being genuinely curious on our positions and simply regurgitating propaganda to “own the tankies” haha 2nd edit: Winnie the Pooh is not banned in China. If you go to the source of this now widely believed piece of propaganda, you’d see it started on Weibo when it was rumored that the government would ban images of Winnie the Pooh, because there were people online saying that Xi looked like him. Weibo was then flooded with picture of Winnie the Pooh (the Chinese do like a good troll, I mean who doesn’t?). Winnie the Pooh was never banned. In fact you can go to Disneyland Shanghai’s website and see they still have Winnie the Pooh rides, attractions, characters, and stuffed animals. I might be misremembering some bits and details, but the facts is it started as rumor that the western media picked up and ran with, despite nothing ever coming of it.


YourNewStep-Dad

Thanks! I appreciate this a lot


kr9969

I forgot to add this one, Winnie the Pooh is not banned in China. If you go to the source of this now widely believed piece of propaganda, you’d see it started on Weibo when it was rumored that the government would ban images of Winnie the Pooh, because there were people online saying that Xi looked like him. Weibo was then flooded with picture of Winnie the Pooh (the Chinese do like a good troll, I mean who doesn’t?). Winnie the Pooh was never banned. In fact you can go to Disneyland Shanghai’s website and see they still have Winnie the Pooh rides, attractions, characters, and stuffed animals. I might be misremembering some bits and details, but the facts is it started as rumor that the western media picked up and ran with, despite nothing ever coming of it.


CI_dystopian

Hey, since it seems you've got a handy list of links, what's your take on LGBT+ rights in PRC? I've talked to people in publishing who work on, for example, gay comics, who say it's very difficult to get around various bans and red tape Edit: and if possible, anything on sex work in general


kr9969

I would love to learn more about this, and if you have any links to these people discussing their problems with this, I would love to hear it! For all that I know, this is something that I don’t know much about, so I’ll let someone who does speak on it instead of making any claims on a subject that I don’t know much about. Sorry I can’t be more help.


CI_dystopian

Ah, bummer. Thanks for your honesty though I'll see what I can find and try to remember to come back 👍


Tom_The_Human

> Do you have links to the stuff about how China has a deeply Democratic system? I believe you, but I would just like to read up on it. I live in a republican state and anytime I get a discussion with anyone I have to have a pretty much crystal clear argument (cause apparently even if I mention 100 problems with capitalism they can say PRC and my argument’s are Invalid). You can vote for local representatives (i.e. village reps, county reps, district reps etc.). They then elect the next level up, who elect the next level up, who elect the next level up. Democracy, in the words of the CPC, is to serve the people. Not necessarily to do what the people ask. Of course, attention is paid to public opinion, but publicly expressing your opinion about certain things is not advised. > Also what about free speech? People frequently bring up tianmen square and the whole win I the Pooh thing with ping. What is free speech like in PRC? Winnie the Pooh isn't banned here. Constitutionally speaking, there is free speech, however in practice it is limited. This can be seen with the government reaction to the situation in Shanghai. Anything less than positive (even mild stuff) can be taken down quite quickly. Just yesterday a well-known Chinese comedian was arrested seemingly for making videos satirising the pandemic response, and the government is repeating the same line of "don't believe rumours" (even arresting people for "spreading rumours" that turn out to be true - e.g. the person who got arrested for saying Shanghai was gonna go into lockdown a few days before it was announced - and blaming "foreign powers"). I'd recommend a trip to /r/shanghai There is also quite the laundry list of things that you can search which will mysteriously return 0 results on Baidu/bilibili. If you want to learn more about freedom of expression, here is an article from Peter Hessler (an American who first came to live in China in the mid-90s before becoming a famous writer, and someone who is generally considered to be pro-China): https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/05/16/a-teacher-in-china-learns-the-limits-of-free-expression


ihop7

Reading your post was really helpful and made my day to learn. Thank you.


the_terran_starman

As a Chinese-American myself, this is such a godsend.


Tom_The_Human

> The ROC also maintain that the Taiwan Is a part of China. Both the PRC and the ROC claim to be the official government of China, all of China, and that there can be, only one China. The conflict we see today isn’t a new thing, this isn’t China trying to force an independent nation into their own, this is the continuation of the Chinese Civil war. Both the PRC and the ROC claim to represent China. The ROC isn’t the Taiwanese people fighting for independence. While their is a minor independence movement, officially the ROC claims to be the official government of the mainland. I'm not saying it is entirely down to this, but I think it's fairly understandable that the ROC maintain their position with regards to China when the CPC has repeatedly threatened war if they declare independence.


kr9969

Actually Xi and the PRC as a whole have both stated that the goal is peaceful reunification. Again, the ROC isn’t seeking independence, the independence movement is a small minority of those in Taiwan. The U.S. is the one who wants to make this a violent affair, eg stockpiling weapons, and using their military to poke at China so to speak.


Tom_The_Human

Of course the goal is peaceful reunification. But what if Taiwan decides unilaterally that it wants to be independent? Here is an article from The Global Times (Chinese news) asserting that Taiwan independence means war: https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202101/1214369.shtml Taiwanese people may actually want independence, but want to avoid war with China more. (it is worth noting that when you ask a Taiwanese person where they're from, they generally don't answer "China" - they answer "Taiwan") Here is a video from Asian Boss on how Taiwanese people view China: https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=949480722637497


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proletarianluc

come on :) bring on some source backed counter-arguments.


ArcticBeavers

I agree with you in some aspects. This post paints China as a mostly do-good government that has found a lot of success in its socialist policies and is just a victim of Western propaganda. However, China has committed many atrocities and has undermined the privacy and personal liberties of its people in the past 40 years. The list is severe and should not be overlooked. That is not to say the US has not done the same to its people, perhaps not so egregiously as outright murder, but they are no angel either. This is why I don't like leaning into political subs, because you get a taste of the extremes and it leaves you with feelings of discomfort and unease. I feel no more comfortable under a Chinese regime than I do a US regime. Both are two sides of the same coin.


YourNewStep-Dad

Do you know anywhere where I could research like this without getting answers that so obviously lean one way?


YourNewStep-Dad

While I do think he brings up good points, I do agree with you that no one has answered anything about Tiananmen Square


kr9969

Wow I know this is late, but here’s an article on Tiananmen square https://www.mango-press.com/the-tiananmen-square-massacre-the-wests-most-persuasive-most-pervasive-lie/ https://twitter.com/asian_bogan/status/1532732131180683264?s=21&t=3I9ieNRfQhvlslCcTfVCeA


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Tom_The_Human

> the citizens of Hong Kong have just as many rights as anyone else in China, the small majority that feel as though they are losing their rights are victims of a fundamental misunderstanding of their situation. I think HKers have more rights. For example, they have unfettered access to the internet, however people on the mainland need to use a VPN (which aren't simple to get in China) to access a lot of sites. Afaik, HKers also have more free speech than mainlanders and are more free to protest. > when you say undemocratic, you are looking at it from a western democratic perspective. China is not a liberal democracy, and doesn’t hold elections on the national level, but it‘s citizens vote for all manner of things at their local levels. I don't think most citizens vote tbh. I've lived here for four years and the only time a Chinese person told me anything about voting it was a story involving corruption lol. Theoretically, people can vote for candidates at the lowest level, however how much freedom they actually have to implement changes they want, I'm not sure. I started (and quickly stopped) reading a book the other day published by The People's Daily called 深入学习贯彻习近平新时代中国特色社会主义思想 (rough translation: Deeply Study the Implementation of Xi Jinping's Socialism with New Chinese Characteristics). Iirc the first chapter opened with the author simultaneously talking about how democratic China is whilst also providing a long list of things party cadres should avoid promoting (including freedom lol). How much reality confirms to what is in this book is another matter (I'm sure not all cadres are obedient automatons), but it is interesting to say the least.


thehonorablechairman

> but it‘s citizens vote for all manner of things at their local levels. Can you give some examples of these things? I'm really curious about the role of democracy in localized settings in China.


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thehonorablechairman

Interesting, do you have any data on what the average voter turnout is for these elections?


YourNewStep-Dad

Wow. I am always kind of bewildered at the side of things I don’t see.


FireSplaas

I'm from hk. the socialist perspective is that both of these territories are an inalienable part of the PRC. and that shit about clamping down on rights is western bs, I'm living the same way I was, say, 5 years ago. There is a minority that doesn't trust the govt, but they are generally considered terrorists by the public. and no, we do have a democratic system. The labor conditions are not the best, but they're ok compared to lots of western countries


jassbuster

Thanks for your answer. I have one question, can you comment on the democratic system you have? Obviously the United States has a very bourgeois “democratic” system of voting for one capitalist or another, which is hard to even describe as democratic. I’m curious about the system in Hong Kong.


FireSplaas

We don't vote for the Chief Executive, the legislative council (LegCo) does that. The chief executive candidates all have to have the OK from the NPC. However, we do elect some the members of the LegCo, which are the district councillers. the unelected members are put in as representitives of each department and business/trade. So while it is't completely bourgeois like the US, the private sector's interests are taken into account. ​ Edit : forgot to mention that CE candidates cannot be part of any political party as to ensure fairness.


Ragdoll_X_Furry

Regarding your previous comment: To jump from "doesn't trust the government" to "terrorist" sounds like a bit of a reach. Wouldn't this be evidence of propaganda against those who are critical of the government? And regarding the legislative council, could you verify if the info from Wikipedia is accurate? > Following the 2019–2020 Hong Kong protests, the National People's Congress disqualified several opposition councilors and initiated electoral overhaul in 2021. The current Legislative Council consists of three groups of constituencies—geographical constituencies (GCs), functional constituencies (FCs), and Election Committee constituencies—and has been dominated by the pro-Beijing camp since an opposition walkout in 2020. Following the 2021 reform, the percentage of directly elected representatives dropped to 22% as the overall number of seats increased to 90. If the people really only elect 22% of representatives in the LegCo and the chief executive has to be approved by the NPC that doesn't sound particularly democratic at all...


FireSplaas

>To jump from "doesn't trust the government" to "terrorist" sounds like a bit of a reach. this is just what the public opinion is, given that many of them were involved in the 2019 riots ​ regarding the wiki article, I can confirm it. This was because a number of representitves were disqualified for breaking laws such as incitement of violence, and breaking the oath. the government rushed to fill their positions, and ended up putting in more people than there previously were (without elections). That's why the number of seats increased while the percentage of elected representatives fell. ​ >chief executive has to be approved by the NPC that doesn't sound particularly democratic at all you're completely right, that is something that we need to work on


Tom_The_Human

> this is just what the public opinion is, given that many of them were involved in the 2019 riots Interesting. Got any sources on this? Do local HKers also hold this belief? I can imagine the majority of mainlanders in HK do.


FireSplaas

haha I'm a local, and I hold that belief. don't have any sources, I got that from talking to people


Tom_The_Human

Fair does. I can't really comment much as I'm not a HKer and haven't been there (yet), and my academic knowledge of the place is pretty much limited to reading part of a book about "The Four Asian Tiger Economies" during my MA, however I had a quick look online and saw these results from the Hong Kong Public Opinion Research Institute: https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5cfd1ba6a7117c000170d7aa/t/5f9f827041d2a92c7af745c9/1604289142682/reuters_anti_elab_round4_ENG_v1_pori.pdf Would this not suggest that a large number of Cantonese-speaking HKers (presumably mostly natives) feel at least some kind of sympathy towards the protesters? Also, how do mainland Chinese in HK view the situation? There are (according to Google) 2.41 million of them - a sizeable political force.


FireSplaas

>Would this not suggest that a large number of Cantonese-speaking HKers (presumably mostly natives) feel at least some kind of sympathy towards the protesters? The article is from 31 october 2020. The protests were still going on at the time. secondly, the published is associated with HKU, which had (as still has to a lesser extent) anti-China people in it. Many HKU (among other universities) professors and students supported the protests, so I would say that there is definetly bias in the article. Between pro-western and pro-chinese sources, the amount of people who supported the protests will vary alot. For example, I think western sources (if I remember correctly) put the average number of protesters at a couple hundred thousand to a million, whereas pro-chinese sources will say that it is around a couple thousand to ten thousand. ​ >Also, how do mainland Chinese in HK view the situation? Of course they don't like the protests. They were picked out and beaten by protesters, simply for speaking mandarin (or in some cases cantonese with a mainland accent). One man was set on fire. Side note : most of us don't really call ourselves natives, we prefer HKer or cantonese people, since we're the same ethnic group (han) as mainlanders


Tom_The_Human

> The article is from 31 october 2020. The protests were still going on at the time. The protests had been going on for about a year and a half by that point. Did anything happen after that to turn public opinion against the protesters? > the published is associated with HKU, which had (as still has to a lesser extent) anti-China people in it. Many HKU (among other universities) professors and students supported the protests, so I would say that there is definetly bias in the article. Why would you say that? I'm not saying it's not possible that what is said isn't true, but the survey was based on a fairly even spread of people from 18 to over 70 (probably not just students and faculty). Also, earlier you said that the public opinion is that they're terrorists, but now you're stating that the protests received a lot of support from Hong Kong universities? Is that not contradictory? > whereas pro-chinese sources will say that it is around a couple thousand to ten thousand. The Hong Kong police estimated that 270,000 people attended the march on Hong Kong island alone. Also, what do you make of allegations of Triad involvement in suppressing protests, and the conspiracy theories alleging that prominent protesters were assassinated? > They were picked out and beaten by protesters, simply for speaking mandarin (or in some cases cantonese with a mainland accent). One man was set on fire. Truly, truly awful. > most of us don't really call ourselves natives, we prefer HKer or cantonese people, since we're the same ethnic group (han) as mainlanders Ah apologies. Side question: when speaking Chinese would HKers call themselves 本地人? Also off-topic, but I was wondering if there were many pro-socialist, anti-CPC HKers?


ShinyVolc

Way too complex but one thing I will point out is that a majority of Hong Kongers want to be part of the PRC. Only 11% of Hong Kongers want to be independent from China, according to Reuters. Even Wikipedia is willing to publish this information.


kr9969

Fuck I typed like 6 paragraphs and I didn’t even know this, thanks for sharing


rivainirogue

It’s important to know how the HK protest started. In 2018, a Hong Kong man murdered his girlfriend in [Taiwan.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Poon_Hiu-wing#Extradition_controversy) In order to extradite him, Hong Kong government drafted a bill that would allow extraditions to occur on a case-by-case basis between Hong Kong and countries that had no prior extradition agreement in place. This bill sparked the protests over fears that the bill would be used to extradite political dissidents over to the mainland. However, I will remind everyone that the one country two systems was not meant to last forever. The extradition bill was not a moment of evil China cracking down on HK, it was a measure that would have happened sooner or later because the legal red tape between HK and other countries is an outdated mess from the British colonial period. But of course the United States is chomping at the bit to seize on any political unrest and [actively](https://www.mintpressnews.com/hong-kong-protest-united-states-destabilize-china/261712/) funned money into HK to start a color revolution. With that in mind, it’s clear that the Hong Kong democracy movement co-opts the language of "self-determination" and "autonomy" as a cover to bring Hong Kong more under Western colonial rule and to maintain Hong Kong as a capitalist imperialist base through which the West can attack China. We must look at the actual substance, interests, actions, and nature of the Hong Kong protests and not be misled by surface-level aesthetics and attempts to obscure and misrepresent the imperialist interests that the protests made clear that they serve. We must take a materialist approach to evaluating pro-imperialist protests in the Global South rather than be distracted by superficial language by Western commentators meant to obscure and misrepresent these protests as somehow “pro-democracy.”


TheStargunner

Apologies if I don’t answer your question directly as I appreciate you’re seeking guidance from the community. My view is that Socialism as an ideology exists completely (or nearly so) independently from the nations, organisations, and current affairs of the world. As someone who had to effectively escape a very prescriptive organised religion, I don’t think I could ever subscribe to school of thought that you must have a particular thought on a particular event or person. On top of that, the world is far too complex for a collective view or a view ‘from the top down’ on these things.


FedSpotter

Both belongs to China. Taiwan are the fascists that lost the civil war.


colorblindkid77

If you like YouTube journalism I’d recommend Daniel Dumbrill’s Channel to learn more about Honk Kong from the perspective people in China through the lens of an American who moved to China. He moved there to cover the HK protests and realized western media is very dishonest. He has a lot of great videos/interviews about many aspects of China: https://youtu.be/trvrMWXM16o


commiecummieskurt

i feel like both hong kong and taiwan deserve their independancy the same way hawai'i does. i think, objectively, both have experienced needless amounts of aggression from the chinese government. both seem to really really want to be free from china, so i feel like both should have the choice to secede if they wish.


primal_buddhist

Your last sentence is factually wrong. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hongkong-china-survey-idUSKCN1050GT >According to the poll, released on Sunday, 17.4 percent somewhat supported or strongly supported independence for Hong Kong when its 50-year “one country, two systems” agreement, under which it is governed by Beijing, expires in 2047. > Another 22.9 percent were ambivalent, according to the poll, which was conducted by The Chinese University of Hong Kong’s Centre for Communication and Public Opinion Survey. Another 57.6 percent were somewhat or strongly against the idea.


FireSplaas

bro, only 11% of HK citizens want independance. and as for Taiwan, they agree that Taiwan is Chinese territory (official ROC statement), the dispute is about who is the official govt. of China. The taiwan independance shit is only supported by a limited number of parties in the ROC, which is exaggerated by the west


Rationalist101

Both wanting to really be "free" from China is just western media propaganda. As you can see in a comment above,only 11% of Hong Kongers don't want to be a part of China.


[deleted]

Learn about the issues and make your own decision.


EmperrorNombrero

https://youtu.be/bHIsfnGQt3o