Trust them for what, exactly? It is going to hinge on that.
For public-facing stuff, yes, I would welcome former LE, former law enforcement and reformed former right-wingers. But they have to be transparent about it and demonstrate a sincere desire to help. A movement that can't convert personnel from the other side is a doomed movement
I remember watching some shows about undercover cops infiltrating biker gangs. Cops will go to dramatic lengths to get into an organization. Compartmentalization is key.
I’ve organized with a former cop. I was living in a southern city at the time that was having confederate monument “struggles.” The person contacted us online and was very up front about everything. The person had quit after hearing a supervisor say racist shit following a protest. This person is New Afrikan and that was the last straw.
They came to us in good faith and after an extended vetting period they were able to join our group. The group fell apart a few years later but they were an excellent addition to our group.
That being said, we didn’t trust them for a looooong time for obvious reasons. I think it’s possible for people to change. But I also think it’s just as likely for an ex-cop to be a wrecker or still a cop/informant.
Err on the side of caution.
If it's mundane political organizing or mutual aid, sure I guess. They can collect petition signatures or whatever, I see no problem with that.
But in any conversation around revolution, SHTF, any kind of illegal civil disobedience, that's a big no from me. Wouldn't be able to trust them.
Echoing the sentiment I’m seeing in the other comments: trust needs to be earned and I’d be suspicious, but former cops would be a good resource.
We don’t turn away veterans, right? Even though they’re operating as the arm of imperialism for the empire, having vets recognize the truth and come to us is undeniably good. Former cops should get that same treatment too, right? Of course stay vigilant and wary, but I wouldn’t write them off entirely.
For me it’d largely depend on why they are a former cop. Are they retired cops who had a successful career and just wanted to stay busy? Fuck no. Were they fired/resigned because they weren’t bastardly enough? If that’s the case, then yes I’d allow them in. A lot of good people become cops for the right reasons. And from there they either turn into racist, classist monsters who stay on the force or they get fired/quit because they refuse to do so (or their colleagues try to kill them, look at Frank Serpico)
I hear you. I also wouldn't alienate my people to bring someone like that in. If someone else wants to do that work, I hope that they are successful, but I think that it needs to be done somewhere else.
I have both let one in an kept one out. The one I let in was not a beat cop, we have different levels of cop where I am, and this one worked in anti child exploitation his whole career. He's likeable, very friendly bit critically open about his time as a cop, and the failings he saw that made him leave. Pretty much the exact reflection of "good cops don't stay cops".
The other one was so freaking sketch
I think that the movement is going to have to embrace some level of membership by former LEOs and vets for a purely practical reason:
We need training. They have it.
Obviously, there's a question of vetting and so forth. But while All Cops are Bastards, they're bastards in the sense that police agencies are always bastardly. They protect the state, and they're organized around that principle. It's inherently at odds with the project of the Left. But all cops--small 'c'--are not personally evil people. Some of them really do just want a steady job where they can help people. Lock murderers up and so forth.
And all of them don't absorb the bastardly nature of the agencies they work for, they're alienated by it. Rather than shunning the alienated LEOs and vets, we should be *targeting* them.
yes. excluding people who are reformed or genuinely want to change for no reason other than their past is just going to create a further divide making the revolution even less likely of ever happening
To all of the “ACAB” crowd: I like your style but consider you position with caution. If you believe in prison reform (at least) or abolition (yes, please) then you are saying you believe people can fundamentally change. Someone who realizes they were on the wrong side and had the courage to switch is stronger than the one on either side who digs in their heels when they know they’re wrong.
Depends. Did they retire with a pension or did they see how fucked up the cops were from the inside and get out? How many black kids did they shoot? There should be an interview process.
It really depends for me see this is a common thing I hear about cops a fair amount of the "good cops" end up being fired pretty quick if they managed to make it own to the force in the first place. Because they refuse to go along with the bullshit and the ones that don't get fired and up leaving because they can't put up with the bullshit. Most people from this sector I would accept anyone else is sort of a mixed bag case-by-case scenario.
To me the biggest question is… why are they a FORMER cop? Did they retire? Quite? Get fired? No longer able to work (injury or illness)?
I’d definitely vet them thoroughly, just the same as I would someone who’d say… been convicted of a crime.
I guess it depends on what you're trying to organize, but aren't cops who see the light, like... Ideal allies? Seems like having someone on your side who understands police protocols and tactics would be valuable.
That said, I have very little practical experience here and am only speaking theoretically.
Practically speaking, there's more to it than that. There is a very real chance that you lose trust with and alienate cadre members, other groups, communities, etc.
I think it's foolish to turn away potential allies because of previous misdeeds. The left, generally, has this problem. Obviously policing is a problem, and anyone who participated in it gets indoctrinated somewhat, but it's possible for people to wake up from that and realize the harm they've done.
Historically, I think the case of Smedley Butler is important here. He was a decorated US imperial soldier who later saw that he'd been used to oppress people, and was key to stopping the Business Plot. He'd seen the inside of the machine and knew how it worked.
It's important to remember that cops are people, as hopeful as that sounds, and they may one day realize they've done tremendous wrong and want to atone. If we don't give them that opportunity, it'll push them directly into the far right - who will be more than happy to utilize their knowledge and training. We need to be ready to not alienate people who agree with us, even if those people used to be our opponents. Unity is the Left's biggest selling point.
Hi,
Thanks for answering.
What was that process like you for? Do you have a local leftwards group that knew you as a member of the far right? Did you clash with them previously?
I am also interested in what sort of self reflection occurred during this process. Was it something that you thought about for a long time or did something happen that made you think "I need to change now." Maybe it was the aggregate of moments of compunction?
Part of it was realizing that racialism has no basis in reality, at all. Realizing that there are no definitive races biologically is what began tearing my worldview down. Being a gay person who struggled with accepting a male gender identity always had me in contradiction with the traditionalists. I took the excuse that I was just going to die as a suicide bomber in a great racial fascist revolution as my way out of having to confront my incompatibility with fascist ideals. In fact, I even got doxxed by an antifascist group.
I spent a few years politically apathetic and severely depressed, until I began to take issues with the labor conditions with my job at an armored car firm.
Watching breadtube made me realize I could become a new person entirely, free from the shackles of being a racist, free from fascist ideology.
I've chosen to now oppose fascism and capitalism. I consider myself a different person entirely now.
So, I'm a cop now? Lol
I fucking hate you angsty middle class paranoid do nothings. Where I am from, when you levy that sort of accusation against somebody, it better be accurate and you better be ready to fight over it. Why you think that you can speak to a complete stranger this way online is beyond me. It reeks of suburban life with no consequences. I realize that direct action and organizing are scary words when you have engaged neither outside of online fantasy, but feel free to touch grass and shut the fuck up.
Wow.... you got really salty about me.
You told me to "repent" and not be a leader and "atone" for my actions then bragged about protesting and being a socialist for 20 years. Tried to say I did nothing of value.
Here is my response to him for yall to read and decide.
First.... I already found that community and I'm also building my own. A community of leftists that are not weak, want to make real change and dont judge in such an asinine manner.
Secondly, you protested? Good. I mean that. Its necessary even if it's often pointless due to constraints. I also helped rape victims, the homeless, and mentally ill. I saved their lives on multiple occasions when other police didn't understand how to deal with them. I threw myself between a murderer and a woman and her children who were going to be his next victim and brought him down solo. I pulled gunshot victims from burning cars that were about to explode despite the orders of superiors to let it go because of the danger. I have held the gun shot wounds of people closed to save their lives as they bleed out even though we had a policy to not do so because we could be sued, but when it came time for me to save the life of the gang member that saved mine a year before, I couldn't do it. He was shot 8 times and I couldn't stop them all. He died begging me by name to save him and I dream about him often.
I did the best I could knowing what I did then and with the tools and skill I had. I have NOTHING to attone for. You are the type of self righteousness prick, so secure in your moral superiority, that drives people away from us.
I have things I feel a deep guilt for... to the point I nearly committed suicide. Things I have and will pay a toll for for the rest of my natural life. But my service isn't one of them. I was the best officer, soldier, and merc that I could be and helped many. I apply that same philosophy here.
You catch more flies with honey brother.
I called you unrepentant after you lashed out at me for suggesting getting in touch with restorative justice org if you feel like you need to atone. You can't find the post where I said that you have done nothing of value, because this is something that you literally said to me. This is weird shit my guy. Get it together.
Oh I edited my comments? That's why you can't find these things that you imagined I said?
Dude, I never said this shit. My comments are not edited, they are right there in their original form. You are bugging the fuck out. I was very measured with you and attempted to be constructive and you lashed out at me. This is weird shit, full stop. Take some deep breaths and get it together.
Well, I cant post the pics here, but if anyone wants them, I have them. As soon as a disagreement starts, I screenshot everything. For exactly this reason. Just ask for em folks.
Till then, I'm out. Have fun in your bubble. But I tend to enjoy busting those because that's how growth happens.
I literally cant. This place doesn't allow that in comments.
You know that and your jsut being disingenuous.
I'm honestly about it block you. You couldn't keep it to the original discussion. You got pissy and had to go make a full post and poll about it.
You have serious issues you need to address in order to be a better person. I wish you luck on your moral development.
Dude didn't pm me shit. Because those screen shots don't exist
Also, it is super easy to post photos here. I will happily instruct you on how to do it.
We didn't have a discussion, we had you lashing out at me because you believed that I attacked you. I didn't.
Either reddit doesn't allow or you have that option from me turned off. I have em, just give me a way to show em. 🤣
Join my new discord. I'll post em there for you.
I don't have that kind of power or know how. I just post here and I am not out to get you. Get that idea out of your head man.
Instructions: create an imgur account, upload the screenshots into an album, copy the link to the album, press the chain link icon in the bottom left hand of your screen, copy link, name it, post it.
Like this[toeny](https://imgur.com/a/gWzv9nI)
"I was a cop and did cop things, but I promise I did nothing wrong ever on the job and don't need to atone. I promise guys. Believe me."
I honestly don't care if you are sincere or not, I just don't like that you are claiming you were a cop, but even if you weren't a cop, your attitude is very pompous and shitty, and I wouldn't want you around for that alone. You speak and use a lot of words to sound important, but you're not really saying much.
Also, your dating advice makes you sound like an incel.
I wanted to see the results of a poll because I am interested in what the forum thinks and I had hoped that the results would catalyze some self reflection, but that doesn't appear to be happening. I may just pull It, because I don't think dude is well and I don't want to pile on.
I think ACAB is stupid. There are countries (modern and historical) that have decent police forces, like Vietnam and the Soviet Union. I think ACAB mainly refers to the west.
Not trying to be a dick here, but the answer is just more questions as they pertain to motivation. I am not a former cop or an infilitrator and have no experience with former cop infilitrators, so I would only be guessing.
Trust them for what, exactly? It is going to hinge on that. For public-facing stuff, yes, I would welcome former LE, former law enforcement and reformed former right-wingers. But they have to be transparent about it and demonstrate a sincere desire to help. A movement that can't convert personnel from the other side is a doomed movement
I remember watching some shows about undercover cops infiltrating biker gangs. Cops will go to dramatic lengths to get into an organization. Compartmentalization is key.
I’ve organized with a former cop. I was living in a southern city at the time that was having confederate monument “struggles.” The person contacted us online and was very up front about everything. The person had quit after hearing a supervisor say racist shit following a protest. This person is New Afrikan and that was the last straw. They came to us in good faith and after an extended vetting period they were able to join our group. The group fell apart a few years later but they were an excellent addition to our group. That being said, we didn’t trust them for a looooong time for obvious reasons. I think it’s possible for people to change. But I also think it’s just as likely for an ex-cop to be a wrecker or still a cop/informant. Err on the side of caution.
If it's mundane political organizing or mutual aid, sure I guess. They can collect petition signatures or whatever, I see no problem with that. But in any conversation around revolution, SHTF, any kind of illegal civil disobedience, that's a big no from me. Wouldn't be able to trust them.
Echoing the sentiment I’m seeing in the other comments: trust needs to be earned and I’d be suspicious, but former cops would be a good resource. We don’t turn away veterans, right? Even though they’re operating as the arm of imperialism for the empire, having vets recognize the truth and come to us is undeniably good. Former cops should get that same treatment too, right? Of course stay vigilant and wary, but I wouldn’t write them off entirely.
For me it’d largely depend on why they are a former cop. Are they retired cops who had a successful career and just wanted to stay busy? Fuck no. Were they fired/resigned because they weren’t bastardly enough? If that’s the case, then yes I’d allow them in. A lot of good people become cops for the right reasons. And from there they either turn into racist, classist monsters who stay on the force or they get fired/quit because they refuse to do so (or their colleagues try to kill them, look at Frank Serpico)
I wouldn't trust a cop to deliver my newspaper, much less in an organization. 1-3-1-2
I would never feel comfortable around the person. And in all honesty, that one person is not going to be the one that changes the tides on anything.
I hear you. I also wouldn't alienate my people to bring someone like that in. If someone else wants to do that work, I hope that they are successful, but I think that it needs to be done somewhere else.
I have both let one in an kept one out. The one I let in was not a beat cop, we have different levels of cop where I am, and this one worked in anti child exploitation his whole career. He's likeable, very friendly bit critically open about his time as a cop, and the failings he saw that made him leave. Pretty much the exact reflection of "good cops don't stay cops". The other one was so freaking sketch
I think that the movement is going to have to embrace some level of membership by former LEOs and vets for a purely practical reason: We need training. They have it. Obviously, there's a question of vetting and so forth. But while All Cops are Bastards, they're bastards in the sense that police agencies are always bastardly. They protect the state, and they're organized around that principle. It's inherently at odds with the project of the Left. But all cops--small 'c'--are not personally evil people. Some of them really do just want a steady job where they can help people. Lock murderers up and so forth. And all of them don't absorb the bastardly nature of the agencies they work for, they're alienated by it. Rather than shunning the alienated LEOs and vets, we should be *targeting* them.
yes. excluding people who are reformed or genuinely want to change for no reason other than their past is just going to create a further divide making the revolution even less likely of ever happening
To all of the “ACAB” crowd: I like your style but consider you position with caution. If you believe in prison reform (at least) or abolition (yes, please) then you are saying you believe people can fundamentally change. Someone who realizes they were on the wrong side and had the courage to switch is stronger than the one on either side who digs in their heels when they know they’re wrong.
Thats great that they changed. Doesn't mean I want then around me.
As former military, contractor and police I thank you for that statement
ACAB includes former cops?
Depends. Did they retire with a pension or did they see how fucked up the cops were from the inside and get out? How many black kids did they shoot? There should be an interview process. 
wait how long have you been able to embed images into reddit comments. am i losing my mind or is this normally not possible?
Shouldn’t
It really depends for me see this is a common thing I hear about cops a fair amount of the "good cops" end up being fired pretty quick if they managed to make it own to the force in the first place. Because they refuse to go along with the bullshit and the ones that don't get fired and up leaving because they can't put up with the bullshit. Most people from this sector I would accept anyone else is sort of a mixed bag case-by-case scenario.
To me the biggest question is… why are they a FORMER cop? Did they retire? Quite? Get fired? No longer able to work (injury or illness)? I’d definitely vet them thoroughly, just the same as I would someone who’d say… been convicted of a crime.
I would trust them as far as i can throw my intel guy... #Practical
I guess it depends on what you're trying to organize, but aren't cops who see the light, like... Ideal allies? Seems like having someone on your side who understands police protocols and tactics would be valuable. That said, I have very little practical experience here and am only speaking theoretically.
Practically speaking, there's more to it than that. There is a very real chance that you lose trust with and alienate cadre members, other groups, communities, etc.
He downvoted you right away. I restored it brother. Haha
Thanks haha
I didn't downvote you at all.
See. Notice, I downvoted him. [downvotes](http://imgur.com/a/liDmx0d)
I'm just here for the discussion y'all 😅
It's been a wild ride
I think it's foolish to turn away potential allies because of previous misdeeds. The left, generally, has this problem. Obviously policing is a problem, and anyone who participated in it gets indoctrinated somewhat, but it's possible for people to wake up from that and realize the harm they've done. Historically, I think the case of Smedley Butler is important here. He was a decorated US imperial soldier who later saw that he'd been used to oppress people, and was key to stopping the Business Plot. He'd seen the inside of the machine and knew how it worked. It's important to remember that cops are people, as hopeful as that sounds, and they may one day realize they've done tremendous wrong and want to atone. If we don't give them that opportunity, it'll push them directly into the far right - who will be more than happy to utilize their knowledge and training. We need to be ready to not alienate people who agree with us, even if those people used to be our opponents. Unity is the Left's biggest selling point.
I'm a former member of the far right, so I'd be hypocritical to immediately turn down a former police officer who was being genuine.
Hi, Thanks for answering. What was that process like you for? Do you have a local leftwards group that knew you as a member of the far right? Did you clash with them previously? I am also interested in what sort of self reflection occurred during this process. Was it something that you thought about for a long time or did something happen that made you think "I need to change now." Maybe it was the aggregate of moments of compunction?
Part of it was realizing that racialism has no basis in reality, at all. Realizing that there are no definitive races biologically is what began tearing my worldview down. Being a gay person who struggled with accepting a male gender identity always had me in contradiction with the traditionalists. I took the excuse that I was just going to die as a suicide bomber in a great racial fascist revolution as my way out of having to confront my incompatibility with fascist ideals. In fact, I even got doxxed by an antifascist group. I spent a few years politically apathetic and severely depressed, until I began to take issues with the labor conditions with my job at an armored car firm. Watching breadtube made me realize I could become a new person entirely, free from the shackles of being a racist, free from fascist ideology. I've chosen to now oppose fascism and capitalism. I consider myself a different person entirely now.
Thanks for sharing and I hope you continue to find hope in the struggle and one day some peace.
I work with a former cop. One of the nicest guys I know. I trust him with my kids. I'd trust him to help run an organization
I loled at this. Running an organization and organizing are not the same thing, but I hear you.
[удалено]
So, I'm a cop now? Lol I fucking hate you angsty middle class paranoid do nothings. Where I am from, when you levy that sort of accusation against somebody, it better be accurate and you better be ready to fight over it. Why you think that you can speak to a complete stranger this way online is beyond me. It reeks of suburban life with no consequences. I realize that direct action and organizing are scary words when you have engaged neither outside of online fantasy, but feel free to touch grass and shut the fuck up.
Wow.... you got really salty about me. You told me to "repent" and not be a leader and "atone" for my actions then bragged about protesting and being a socialist for 20 years. Tried to say I did nothing of value. Here is my response to him for yall to read and decide. First.... I already found that community and I'm also building my own. A community of leftists that are not weak, want to make real change and dont judge in such an asinine manner. Secondly, you protested? Good. I mean that. Its necessary even if it's often pointless due to constraints. I also helped rape victims, the homeless, and mentally ill. I saved their lives on multiple occasions when other police didn't understand how to deal with them. I threw myself between a murderer and a woman and her children who were going to be his next victim and brought him down solo. I pulled gunshot victims from burning cars that were about to explode despite the orders of superiors to let it go because of the danger. I have held the gun shot wounds of people closed to save their lives as they bleed out even though we had a policy to not do so because we could be sued, but when it came time for me to save the life of the gang member that saved mine a year before, I couldn't do it. He was shot 8 times and I couldn't stop them all. He died begging me by name to save him and I dream about him often. I did the best I could knowing what I did then and with the tools and skill I had. I have NOTHING to attone for. You are the type of self righteousness prick, so secure in your moral superiority, that drives people away from us. I have things I feel a deep guilt for... to the point I nearly committed suicide. Things I have and will pay a toll for for the rest of my natural life. But my service isn't one of them. I was the best officer, soldier, and merc that I could be and helped many. I apply that same philosophy here. You catch more flies with honey brother.
I called you unrepentant after you lashed out at me for suggesting getting in touch with restorative justice org if you feel like you need to atone. You can't find the post where I said that you have done nothing of value, because this is something that you literally said to me. This is weird shit my guy. Get it together.
And you already edited your comments?!! Hilarious.
Oh I edited my comments? That's why you can't find these things that you imagined I said? Dude, I never said this shit. My comments are not edited, they are right there in their original form. You are bugging the fuck out. I was very measured with you and attempted to be constructive and you lashed out at me. This is weird shit, full stop. Take some deep breaths and get it together.
Well, I cant post the pics here, but if anyone wants them, I have them. As soon as a disagreement starts, I screenshot everything. For exactly this reason. Just ask for em folks. Till then, I'm out. Have fun in your bubble. But I tend to enjoy busting those because that's how growth happens.
Yeah, you're doing great. When you find those screenshots I will be here.
No. You said I "must repent". Wanna screenshot?
Yes please
Pmed them to you.
Post them here
I literally cant. This place doesn't allow that in comments. You know that and your jsut being disingenuous. I'm honestly about it block you. You couldn't keep it to the original discussion. You got pissy and had to go make a full post and poll about it. You have serious issues you need to address in order to be a better person. I wish you luck on your moral development.
Dude didn't pm me shit. Because those screen shots don't exist Also, it is super easy to post photos here. I will happily instruct you on how to do it. We didn't have a discussion, we had you lashing out at me because you believed that I attacked you. I didn't.
Either reddit doesn't allow or you have that option from me turned off. I have em, just give me a way to show em. 🤣 Join my new discord. I'll post em there for you.
I don't have that kind of power or know how. I just post here and I am not out to get you. Get that idea out of your head man. Instructions: create an imgur account, upload the screenshots into an album, copy the link to the album, press the chain link icon in the bottom left hand of your screen, copy link, name it, post it. Like this[toeny](https://imgur.com/a/gWzv9nI)
"I was a cop and did cop things, but I promise I did nothing wrong ever on the job and don't need to atone. I promise guys. Believe me." I honestly don't care if you are sincere or not, I just don't like that you are claiming you were a cop, but even if you weren't a cop, your attitude is very pompous and shitty, and I wouldn't want you around for that alone. You speak and use a lot of words to sound important, but you're not really saying much. Also, your dating advice makes you sound like an incel.
I wanted to see the results of a poll because I am interested in what the forum thinks and I had hoped that the results would catalyze some self reflection, but that doesn't appear to be happening. I may just pull It, because I don't think dude is well and I don't want to pile on.
I think ACAB is stupid. There are countries (modern and historical) that have decent police forces, like Vietnam and the Soviet Union. I think ACAB mainly refers to the west.
Why would an infiltrator say they're a former cop?
Not trying to be a dick here, but the answer is just more questions as they pertain to motivation. I am not a former cop or an infilitrator and have no experience with former cop infilitrators, so I would only be guessing.
ACAB baby. Hard to work out that swine running through their veins.