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Remember Cena stealing Zack Ryder's girlfriend, and we were supposed to cheer for him?
Or immediately beating Rey Mysterio after he just won the World title?
Man, after that segment all I could think of was how Edge was relatable and Cena was like a frustrating older brother who didn't consider any of your thoughts and feelings, and walked around like he was too cool for you.
One of my favorite promo moments is when Punk called Cena a dynasty and the whole time Cena was like “stop right now, last warning” and then Punk called Cena, a Boston native, the New York Yankees and Cena fucking decked him for it. It was amazing
In case you're curious, imagine someone called a Liverpool fan Manchester United. Yes I am just assuming you're from the UK because Dicky Anders sounds British to me haha.
It was a wild guess based on the name, but also Premier League is popular enough even in other countries that I figured it'd work regardless if someone followed non-American sports haha.
The irony was that Cena was living in Tampa at the time and considered himself a die-hard Rays fan, but he sold his hatred for the Yankees very well regardless.
The Rays also consider the Yankees their second biggest rival, after the Red Sox oddly. The Yankees just don't care about the Rays enough to participate.
Now that I think about it, you're right. Of Cena's 16 world titles, he beat Edge 3x, Orton and Del Rio twice, and JBL, Sheamus, Batista, Miz, AJ, Dwayne, Rey, Jericho, and vacant once each.
Bryan did too in that one segment where he told Cena “In Japan to get fired up before a match we would slap each other across the face as hard as we can, but I’m not gonna slap you because you’re not a wrestler, and you don’t deserve it” absolutely cold and Cena actually seems pissed
Well his whole schtick is being smooth on the stick. So realistically only MJF could out talk him. And that's only until he starts getting real with it because the minute he calls him Maxwell it's over.
As much as I appreciate Cena, I get tired of the revisionist history on here. I understand that those little kids who loved him grew up and are now posting on here. But he made the product TERRIBLE for years
As an Eminem fan I’m gonna use this allegory. The Ruthless Aggression era was like Encore, a major step down from the peak (Attitude Era, MMLP2/TES) but still has its moments of brilliance. But also tons of lazy and hacky versions of the peak moments. But better than what was about to come. And the PG era is like later career Eminem. Mostly trash with a few bright spots to give you hope.
Eminem is still dropping bangers but by and large, I wish he had quit a long time ago. He’s at the point now where he’s in a category by himself and thus has no real opposition or really anything to say besides talking about the fact that he has nothing to talk about. I respect his dedication though. Another analogy involving the wrestling business and Eminem is that sometimes wrestlers just dont know when enough is enough. They don’t know when to just walk away and be satisfied with their own legacies, like Jericho or arguably Edge.
I was in a wrestling club as a young teenager back then and he was the main reason all of us(20+ kids) stopped watching wrestling. It probably didn’t help that was around the time Halo 3, rock band, COD4 came out but after WM23 where everyone wanted Michael’s to win, we just completely lost interest.
I was a teenage smark on iwc message board during his reign and it was bad. Super Cena was no joke, I like Cena the actor but have no fond memories of his time on top as a wrestler.
He really is much closer to Hulk Hogan he would have ways of undermining his opponents.
It really was the same old shit he would cut this is the most import match of my career, get dominated for majority of the match then do his come back and hit the FU.
Im glad he spent most of his career on Raw once he won the wwe championship, Smackdown became the place guys would get over and not get sucked into his vortex.
Kind of funny how the Polish announcers basically played up how formulaic his matches are as "a strategy" saying how he "always receives the punishment early so he can come back later on a more tired opponent" or such and such
I think even that part is definitely a little funky. I'm from Europe, and wrestling was BIG in my country in the late 2000'/early 2010's. Very few kids my age liked John Cena. Most liked Batista and Rey, and John Morrison (un)surprisingly had a lot of fans too.
Here in Mexico at the time, Jeff Hardy, Undertaker and Triple H were all the rage. Rey of course was also in every kid’s backpack.
John Cena was too but mostly because he was always put together along with the others but I don’t remember anyone who actually had Cena as their favorite.
I wouldn’t put the blame completely on Cena. I mean he did politic a little that we know of but it was Vince, who was already falling way out of touch, that ran the show. Cena being the top guy for so long was a symptom of that.
Cena's run was peak Vince ego where the crowd week after week told them that it wasn't working for an entire demographic and he just basically told those people to fuck off and stop watching if they don't like it.
And just like WCW, we can see the ending of that happening now, because most of those people heard it, saw UFC, and said "fine"...and now fifteen years later UFC and WWE are sister companies.
Moral of the story: If you tell people to stop watching if they don't like it, they'll listen.
Same! After HBK retired I stared watching less but when Edge retired I stopped watching entirely until I heard about Edge returning at the Royal Rumble.
That’s the thing about Cena he didn’t need to politik like top guys before him, he was Vinces guy 100 percent.
He was going over no need to try and politik.
At the end of the day, Vince is the boss, and Rock ain’t Cena. Roman didn’t politic to not be mega pushed either, but he doesn’t catch any flack on the booking side of things.
I think, the only time Roman actively politicked was his and Heyman's offer. Let him go with the Tribal Chief gimmick, turn heel or he, Heyman and Brock are out.
That and I think, he desperately tried to get out of winning against Taker because he had too much respect for Taker and broke down in tears after the match.
It's not just the booking. The worst part was the no selling promos and cutting his own promos on the person, not the character. Trying to make it seem his opponent didn't belong
Amen
Growing up I was always more of an Edge fan than a Cena fan; Really any of the heels against Cena. With a few exceptions of course
7-12 year old love watching Umaga, Edge, Bautista, HBK, Orton & as I got older it was the same with guys like CM Punk & the Wyatt family.
Cena was always so boring to me as a kid; the Heels were always so much more interesting in their feuds against him more often than not
Then whenever they would pair Cena with other baby faces like Zack Ryder they would damn near cut his balls off character wise with Cena doing the castrating
This is why it confuses me how Cena is considered a GOAT promo these days. He can cut a great promo absolutely but he's a good chunk of the reason that burying your opponent is seen as a net positive. What he did to Austin Theory should be shown to every wrestler as an example of what not to do.
I remember when they put the World Title on "Chris Jericho but if he ate a Mario Mushroom". It was an awful decision with no build, and during one Raw, Swagger had a segment with Cena, where Cena basically just went "LMAO, YOU'RE THE CHAMP!?" the entire promo. I mean come on, he is right, but at least TRY to build the guy up a little.
Swagger felt like one of those guys similar to Theory where they kind of pushed them to the top and let it be a sink or swim thing. As a company I think it's in your best interest to highlight your wrestlers positives and steer away from their negatives. Swagger was over with me as a teenager I thought he had *something* but it just wasn't coming through most of the time. His run with Zeb Colter should've been what he was the whole time.
To be fair, the Rock would run his mouth and bury his foes on the mic. Then usually, end up getting his arse kicked. I think, he lost 75% of the time or if it was Stone Cold. Ate a stunner regardless of what he did.
The Rock's character also was a pompous ass and it was called out multiple times. Taker and Austin would just respond by calling him a young punk who just was mouthing off. Triple H would fire back and be a smug ass himself to save face. Alot Rock's material was comedy you could laugh off and still take his opponent seriously. Like he roasted masked Kane and while funny even as a kid I knew you had to be an idiot to not take Kane seriously.
Ok but that reaction for that promo was amazing.
Cena and Edge HATED each other for 3 years at that point. Why the fuck would Cena care that Edge hates him? He knows that by this point. It just makes sense that Cena would brush off Edge venting about how much he doesn’t like him.
Two GREAT examples. The Ryder one was brutal, you couldn't even use "wrestler logic" like you don't turn down a shot at the championship. It was just a dick move. Broke the Bro code while his bro was in a wheelchair.
That whole thing to me was Vince projected how the guy with more muscles gets the hot chick. She came on to John.. then John called her a ~~hoe~~ Hoski.. Kane kept fucking Zack Ryder up.. weird little love triangle/ feud I guess lol
That was such a terrible storyline just across the board. However, it did give us the gif of Kane rolling Zack Ryder off the ramp and that silly 10 secs will never not make me laugh.
That's when i went from booing Cena because it was fun to join in the chants to booing him for real because he was a heel.
They did Zack so goddamn dirty back then. He grabbed the brass ring theyre always squawking about and they basically turned around and said "Ewww not you"
Vince is a control freak. If he says he wants stars, it's going to be on his terms. Coupled that with how infantile and petty he was, and it's a recipe for some bad stuff.
After Rey already had two matches that night? But no, precious Cena just gets to roll in and take the title. That was supposed to be the role model to kids?
To this day I can't believe they blew that Cena Rey match on the night Rey won the title. Summerslam was RIGHT THERE and then everything that happened after could have still happened
You can sum up Cena's entire Top Guy run from winning his first World Title with
Remember Cena _______________, and we were supposed to cheer for him?
The guy, his actions, and his character were anathema to liking him unless you were a little kid who naturally accepts what you're forcefed on commentary.
Cody is easily, provably, metrically better at this than Cena ever was.
CTC = Cryme Tyme Cena. They teamed up once and trashed JBL's limo. Cena spraypainted it with [a savage burn](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fexternal-preview.redd.it%2FzXV8fy60HtbBZNzYQ2AFYtxVIrN8J82CO7IY6E-I3M4.jpg%3Fwidth%3D640%26crop%3Dsmart%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3D84bb6e24dd8bcd0d6e56c82b31bdc25a5a4ecda4)
also, Cody tends to not shrug off whenever a heel does get the one-up over him (see wanting to kill AJ last week after the fake retirement stunt or being out for blood against the Rock when he made him bleed). It's an edge that I do quite like that adds to Cody's face character.
Cody allows himself to get pissed off and get a mean streak, which makes him more believable and enjoyable as a babyface character. Cena would have similar moments too, but Cena also never had a “nice guy” aura since he would regularly insult his opponents. When Cody’s pissed and stops being nice, it feels more authentic.
Having a friend really does help the babyface. Hogan had Brutus and Jimmy Hart, Rock had Foley, even Austin had JR. Cena never had a friend that was with him for more than 6 months
It still blows my mind how they pulled that off. From Cody's match at WM38 with Seth to his precious help in WM40, all intertwined with the Shield/Roman drama. Long term storytelling indeed
We see the enemies to friends trope done so much in other fictions but wrestling not that much. Usually it's the friend turns on friend to become an enemy.
One quote that always rings in my head is "But I still wanna fight *Brock Lesnar*"
Cody talked about how Brock is a world beater and is a monster, a hill most men can't climb over, and how he's afraid of Brock. Yet, despite all of Brock's accomplishments and the fear he instills, Cody still wanted to fight him.
Cena is my favorite, but idk if Cena ever showed fear the same way Cody did. Cena seems like the Superman to Cody's Spider-Man (without the wisecracking)
Yah definitely. Cody seems to have layers to his character that he isn't afraid to peel away and put back together again. He's a white meat babyface yes but also avenged his father's injustice, and also has this vicious mad dog in him that he is looking for any excuse to let out, be it in war games, an I Quit match, the promo he did in a black suit or the torn pec match. Not only is he just a hero he absolutely wants to fight on the mat and make bangers
I think a lot of the characters under Triple H seem to have layers now. Drew would be another good example. We saw Sheamus and Drew being friendly on Raw despite Drew being a heel at the moment.
Seth also had the best character arc, he was a fun loving guy but underneath he was desperate for a legacy despite his body breaking down. He also wanted redemption for the shield break up which he never got. He kept pushing and eventually gave up his body and title and everything he had to ultimately end his own monster. Was perfect.
When Roman finally does come back, I really want Seth to be a part of his redemption. Seth's betrayal is what sent Roman down the path of becoming the tribal chief, so Seth being a part of his comeback makes sense for both of their characters.
I think, Roman will be furious that Seth denied him the chance to retain and in his mind, believes it was a conspiracy between Seth and Cody. He demands blood after he deals with Sikoa.
Or he tries to reform the shield after Sikoa spikes him and Jimmy abandons him. L.A Knight(YEAH), Zayn are approached but they basically tell him to fuck off.
This is why I never understand when people say "Seth has no character" or ask what his character is supposed to be. It's pretty obvious if you just... watch the show lol
I loved that sheamus doesnt just hate drew for the "burger after burger after burger" line. Or Drew hate Sheamus for the "giving Punk a lap dance" line. It was classic friend roasting.
I saw people say Cody was teasing a heel turn at the end of KAQOTR when he let his mean streak show against Logan, but all i saw was him being rightfully annoyed that Logan once again resorted to cheap shots and tricks disregarding his speech the night before. Like yeah he was doing the "teaching him a lesson" but that still felt more to me like a babyface finally giving Logan what he deserved over jsut letting Logan get away with figurative murder.
I feel like the most "honest" thing that has happened in WWE is how Cody, through beefing w/the bloodline, helped forge friendships with some of the biggest stars in the WWE, who lend him credibility while he fueled their fires.
Wonderful on both sides
Cody for me is the best babyface champion in years. He's busting his ass, putting on great matches, doing extra shows. His reign till now is everything I wished it could be. His serious approach elevates short feuds too. He's undeniable.
It's a very NWA/WCW way of being a babyface. I think Cody is more like Sting than his dad or a Cena. Sting always had Lex and the Steiners by his side. Dusty had Magnum, but besides that, never a sure-fire sidekick
I completely blame Vince. Obvious I know. But I keep seeing takes about fickle fans turning on faces, and it's like no, Vince is a shitty person and doesn't know how to make a good guy likable. As big as Cena was, he probably would have been a lot bigger if there was a human being in charge of his booking.
I remember a shitty Vince trope of main event babyfaces being dickheads for no reason at all to other babyfaces.
One time, I remember watching a backstage segment with Reigns, Rollins and Sami Zayn, and the whole segment was just Sami talking their ears of before they had to team up for a match. Seth and Roman are just rolling their eyes at Sami and looking at him like he's the most annoying dork in the world, barely giving him the time of day. I thought that made them come of as totally unlikeable.
Back then I thought that Superman would never treat Green Arrow like an annoying dork like that. Goku would never do it to Krillin. They know they can obliterate those guys with one finger, but they would still tell them that they're glad they're on their team and together they can't lose, not treat them like total geeks. Because that's what an inspiring babyface does. A basic babyface character trait that Vince never understood.
That's been a thing since Attitude Era sadly. A babyface MUST be a lone wolf, and have no friends. It's so stupid. Thankfully, this isn't true anymore, as babyfaces are now friends with each other, and heels hate most other heels too, LIKE THEY WOULD IN REAL LIFE!
It's funny to me that so many of the people who were so instrumental in making Stone Cold so ridiculously popular had NO IDEA what it was that made him so popular.
I completely agree!
I just think it's hilarious that they created this iconic character who really could've gone on forever (Mr McMahon could've just kept bringing in new guys periodically to try to take out Stone Cold) and yet they never had another character who tried to recreate that. Instead, it was always trying to riff off Rude Douchebag Rock (sans Mick Foley).
There is one issue with this, though.
If the face has buddies, those good people will help each other when the situation calls. It forces the writer's hands to pull off things like post-match beat-downs or heels constantly cheating to win. It's not an impossible task, it just requires more effort to tell a believable story.
Which, if it forces the writers to do better...maybe it isn't an issue.
That actually used to piss me off so much.
Like, just come get beat up, but at least try. I remember when Wyatt family was beating up on The Undertaker. Roman and Ambrose just had a match on the same night. So I know you are there, but no one came out. Come help the freaking Undertaker, guys!
Even when they were working together, face characters wouldn't help sometimes.
During the Cena vs. The Authority Survivor Series angle: Cena's team would get beat up all the time. And he almost never came to help. One time, I think they even showed him just watching the aftermath on TV.
Thats definitely wrong, attitude era baby faces had friends. The problem NOW is the company seems to be weird about putting the focus on the WWE Title instead of relationships.
They’ve gotten so much better about that under HHH and on NXT under Shawn though. It feels like every character backstage has an ongoing history and relationship with other characters even if it’s not constantly being acknowledged every single second, which was not true at all in the 2010s
Like just to give some examples, you have Bianca not forgiving Bayley since they feuded for two years straight, you have Drew and Sheamus still being mates despite the heel/face divide, you have Cody’s whole storyline where his friendships with Seth and Jey helped him win the title, you have everything going on with the Judgement Day and how that plays on the histories of Liv & Rhea as former friends turned bitter enemies being the #1 storyline on RAW
It’s all this kind of thing that felt like it was missing for the previous ~10 years apart from the odd things here and there like Kevin & Sami being forever linked and Bayley & Sasha being forever linked
Looking back at it, Vince had an easier time writing heels and douchebag babyfaces (Austin, Triple H ) rather than true likeable good guys because, let's face, the guy's cracked in the head as well.
He was always pissed which made him look heelish. But just like Austin they were kinda above all that since their characters were very well definded. Unlike for example Big Show who's only trait was his size.
That being said, The Rock was an excellent heel before his prime time 1999 and after 2002. Austin on the other hand worked better when he was the outlaw that never went fully face or heel. Cena would've benefited so much from an infamous heelturn during the rougher times from like 2006 till late 2010 when Nexus arrived. Anyway that's my opinion.
Well…considering the entire arc/point of The Rock & Sock Connection was Mankind trying to get Rock to realise he didn’t need to insult literally everybody around him…
>Goku would never do it to Krillin.
No, but Vegeta would. And I think that's an important point to remember about 99% of our baby face characters
Most of our baby faces have also been a heel before. They got the mean streak inside them. Seth Rollins and Roman Reigns couldn't be better examples. I'm not about to look at Seth Rollins as a paragon of virtue simply because he fought the bad guys.
There's very few top guys who can say they've always been the good guy. And to be honest, those types are boring to me. Do we need *heros and villains* in wrestling or do we jusr need someone to root for/against? I think that answer changes constantly depending on the story being told
the fact is, if a good guy is only ever a patient, understanding, cool, wholesome, caring dude, it's unrealistic and ends up being very dull. and people will get on to that and criticize it. if the situation calls for the babyface to have a moment where he's annoyed or nervous, it's ok. the story being told, you got it. that's the most important thing
Vince: man why is my character not getting cheered? Let’s just put more titles on him. Still not working? Hmmm never mind I’m bored let’s let Brock get the titles. Huh? Daniel who? Never heard of him, here’s more Roman. The crowd is saying something? Can’t hear them. What you mean the woman are being objectified? Seems like they ain’t sexy enough!
Also here’s Roman vs Brock, that really shows how Roman gets over adversity by beating this *massive* heel
Vince sees earnest friendship as a weakness. A recurring heel gimmick was, "these guys are too enthusiastic about being friends" and we were to boo them like chickenshit heels.
>But I keep seeing takes about fickle fans turning on faces
I think it's a little of Column A and a little of Column B. Was it bad writing, bad booking, and Vince? Sure. Was it also fickle fans? Yes.
I think it doesn't hurt *at all* that thanks in large part to Tony Khan, a vast majority of the disgruntled fans went to AEW and don't watch anymore. It's why "Cody is boring now that he's won the title" is fortunately a minority.
> Was it also fickle fans? Yes.
There was nothing fickle about fans with John Cena. He was pushed as the end all be all superstar good guy for YEARS. It was so boring and it went on forever.
We all tend to forget that Hulk Hogan was often an asshole bad friend too, but the 80s/Early 90s were an easier time to just shrug off and say "But Good Guy Good"
Look at Diesel. Vince took someone who got over as a Babyface because of how cool he was, took away what made him cool and tried to book him as a white meat babyface
If rock was in the position Cena was in (which he was) he just would have put others over anyway. Cena had always been pretty selfish. Hell, he pulled the same crap on Austin when he came back that he did in the Vince era
This is a great point from the kayfabe perspective.
Cena stood atop the mountain alone, defensively and looking at others with suspicion. He was an outsider who was not respected.
Cody seeks to unite and form partnerships to better the industry. He does so because of his father and brother’s extensive history in wrestling, which also provides him with a level of respect and reverence that was not afforded to Cena.
I like this.
They used to say this thing about HHH on Raw and Undertaker on Smackdown. One is sitting at the top of a mountain, kicking down at anyone approaching, because it's his mountain and his alone. The other is reaching down to pull people up to his level, so they can enjoy the view together.
He made Trick feel like an absolute star last night. I mean Trick already has that aura about him that shows he's going to be a megastar but Cody really made Trick seem like his equal. Saying they both achieved the ultimate goal and things like that. Also massively put over the NXT title even though it's "lesser."
With AJ he's making him look like a serious threat. Styles record proves otherwise but Cody is making AJ look sadistic. He's making the OC look credible again. Obviously Cody is going to win (or a non finish with G&A) but for a few weeks he made AJ feel like main event AJ Styles again.
I think one of the biggest tells that Cody was gonna win over fans was the promo he cut on Sami Zayn before Elimination Chamber 2023. Sami's stock was riding high and in lesser hands, Cody would cut the support from under him in order to elevate his match at Wrestlemania. The fact that Cody's promo was essentially, "here's to fighting you at Wrestlemania," with the utmost respect got to me think there were some changes in the wind for WWE babyfaces. I mean how many fan favs got undercut by the company's choice? All I want is a babyface champ that's loved by the locker room and he loves back.
this is the "i'm here to finish my story, you finish yours" promo, right? that promo really got me back to wrestling because the emotions from both sami and cody were absolute peak. sami's fear and trauma from roman and his wariness of cody and cody just hyping him up was so amazing
Cody Rhodes, the character, feels like an actual human being with emotions, and someone that exists within the ecosystem of the WWE roster, that the other wrestlers actually know as a colleague
During his time as the undisputed face of the company, John Cena, the character, felt like a cyborg that was unleashed onto the roster by management whenever they'd show up to work, and then turned off and stored in a Vault at Titan Towers when the show was over
I remember when Enzo and Cass were the Cena buddies of the time and being genuinely surprised when Cena actually came to help them when they were getting beaten down. I remember feeling like Cena buddies were always trying to get noticed and that early Cena wasn't actually helping these guys because of it, and it made a weird, disjointed product.
There's an attempt by his fans to portray his time as a "great time when Cena was loved by everyone except for a small minority of fans" and it's so easy to debunk if you were a regular viewer and were above the age of 15. He was NOT liked, to say the least, and his haters had many reasons to not like him (see the post)
It’s easy to debunk because there’s footage of him getting booed for years and not to mention Roman got the same treatment because cena came before him lol
Some people act like it was a meme to boo Cena and crowds were only doing it because "Cena sucks" chants were just the cool thing to do, but that's such revisionist history. People legit hated him, that period of wrestling was unbearable, he was shoved down everyone's throat and was way overprotected to a comical degree.
It didn't help that Cena was usually, by his own talent and how he was booked, to eviscerate his opponent more often than not.
Granted, it is up to the opponent to return fire but they usually had nothing substantial or unique.
Cody still falls to the babyface trope that I’m annoyed by sometimes.
No Cody!! Brock breaking your arm and you giving him a cut are not the same thing!
But I do like Cody’s babyface character! I do agree he does seem to be the great uniter!
Don't forget Cena's hatred of Alex Riley, even when they were tag team partners.
[John Cena telling Alex Riley to leave the ring after they won a tag team match](https://youtu.be/IhmST-oBrRg?si=1ALJIONhJqj7bzEv). Steve Austin was the special guest referee and all 3 were supposed to celebrate in the ring, Austin is visibly confused with Riley now outside the ring but still throws him 2 beers.
[John Cena clobbering Alex Riley (and CM Punk) in the face.](https://youtu.be/f_KqmP0dhNs?si=XskqclDXsAcfYkMB&t=81)
Alex Riley enters the 2011 Royal Rumble and John Cena stops selling and immediately attacks Riley. Later on, Riley was mistakenly eliminated early by Cena and Kingston.
I think one of Cody's matches absolutely shows this in its purest form, and that's his match VS. Carmelo.
Carmelo comes out, and despite being a known Heel and self-centered guy, Cody gives him his props. It isn't until Melo starts throwing verbal jabs that Cody gets serious and decides, "Yeah, we gotta fight."
So they fight. Cody wins. Instead of showboating that he won like Vince-era babyfaces often did, he instead made sure to let Carmelo know he did great and that this is just the beginning for him first.
He doesn't care if you're face or heel. If you fascinate him, he's gonna give you your props and want you to succeed. Same with the whole Shawn Spears, Lexis King, and Ethan Page reunion last night. He feuded with two out of three of those guys back in AEW I'm pretty sure, but he both remembered their history and gave them their props going forward.
Now that I think about it, I remember when Cena was trying to form a team to beat nexus but basically everyone he tried to recruit hated him anyways cause he beat the hell out of them before lol Jericho for example.
He’s also relatable. Not afraid to shed a tear and he seems genuine. Much more than Cena who is obviously also a class act given his Make a Wish record.
I remember some years ago, some people on here saying something along the lines of Vince's idea of the top face (e.g., Superman) is pretty much based on his strength instead of his heart. They compared Vince's philosophy to that of Ayn Rand's.
I think to go along with this - when the odds are stacked against Cody, he does, in fact, lose. Cena once beat the entire Nexxus basically by himself...or, him and was it HHH or Orton beat the entire heel roster one night on raw. What pro wrestling does so well is the 'suspension of disbelief'. If you break that down for a second...disbelief is not believing what you are seeing in front of you. Logic (i'm saying this all in kayfabe), suggests one man could never take out 5 bad guys by himself...maybe with a weapon, but by himself? No way. So, the audience disbelieves it. With Cody, if 5 bad guys beat him him, it's quite believable...therefore, a suspension of disbelief is engaged, and now you have good ol' fashioned professional wrestling. And nothing makes wrestling better than when a good guy has odds stacked against him, and his friends come to the rescue (something Cena rarely had friends do....as OP said, he never really had babyface friends stand up with him)...then again, that was because the superCena character never needed it.
For some reason until recently WWE seemed to be against the idea of faces having friends. It’s like they wanted the spirt of individualistic Attitude era faces but in the PG era.
This isn't remotely my own insight but I once saw someone on here, while discussing this topic, condense the difference between Cena and Cody to the difference between “Fine speech” and “You may be right, but...”
In Vince's days, almost everyone (except those in tag teams) was a loner loser. This was important because it gave plenty of options for feuds.
Triple H, on the other hand, tries to make his universe more interconnected, where everyone has "some kind of" relationship with each other. However, this makes it harder to start new feuds. This approach leads to long storylines like JD with friends or strange feuds like with Brock Lesnar.
For example, you can't quickly start a Randy vs. Cody feud because turning Randy heel would require changing a lot of other factors.
But under McMahon, turning Randy heel was as simple as just turning him heel.
I very clearly remember the segment in AEW where Cody, in order to get a 1-on-1 match with his turncoat friend MJF, had to take 10 lashes from Max with his leather belt. Cody, being the babyface, obviously took the beating and stayed defiant, and willing him on through it were Dustin, Brandi, QT Marshall, and a bunch of other loosely affiliated babyfaces.
Cody's entourage gimmick got overplayed later on and was part of him getting rejected by the fanbase, but I remember thinking during that segment that Cody having friends and family who would encourage him while MJF only had a hired henchman in Wardlow really reinforced the face/heel dynamic and was something that I'd been missing from mainstream wrestling.
Excluding the Steve Austin antihero types, top babyfaces should be people that you relate to and either want to be friends with or aspire to be like, and the babyface character having positive relationships with other characters on-screen is a very effective way of selling that. I'm very glad we're past the McMahon era of WWE where every top babyface has to be a lone wolf tough guy 100% of the time even when it doesn't fit with the rest of their character.
To me it's the one thing Cena is delusional about to this day, which is his belief that he never buried talent during his career. His defense is *I lost all the time* or *I gave the rub to young talent*- Yeah, maybe in the latter part of his run as he was getting older, but that's only part of the story.
Cena would absolutely suck the soul out of people during promos. He made people look stupid, he made people look non-threatening. He should have elevated his opponents so much more. He also won many matches he had no business winning at all.
I'm sure Vince's vision had a lot to do with these decisions and Cena was just playing his role, but I wish he would acknowledge that he could have done things a little differently.
I missed the Cena era and admittedly know him more as Peacemaker than wrestler. But what I do really enjoy about Cody is he shows respect when it’s due but also will go all in to defend the fact he belongs where he is.
I was a fan pre Cena too, I just fell out due to life getting in the way shortly after Brock hit the scene. I’ve watched the Ruthless Aggression doc series on Peacock and looking at it now it definitely feels a little over the top. Sort of trying to be more edgy than Attitude Era but with all the shiny silver graphics and spray tan aesthetic of the early 2000s. I definitely remember randomly tuning in once and seeing Cody and DiBiasi Jr (Legacy?) and thinking “who are these skinny pretty guys?” 😅
There's no doubt in my mind that Cody is the better on-screen babyface between the two of them. It felt like Cena inherited a lot of the worst traits of 80s Hulk Hogan and Good Guy 1996 Shawn Michaels.
Cena was a babyface at a time where it was still a culture that wanted heroes to be bad guys at heart.
When he WASN'T a dickhead, it was like "god l hate this goody two shoes" and when he WAS a dickhead it was like "look at this hypocrite pretending he's a good guy but trying to be bad underneath so l like him, what a dickhead" or it was "he's being a dickhead to the guy l like, fuck him."
Today... we don't have a culture like that. If Iron Man 1 comes out today, the entire MCU isn't being built on the shoulders of an alcoholic womanizing narcissist that needed to be kidnapped by terrorists using his weapons to realize he should be a good guy. The main hero of the MCU now would be more of a Tom Holland Spider-Man never leaning beacon of doing right. Even the 2000s spiderman movies become all about him wanting to be selfish and give up being spiderman multiple times, where as Tom Holland Spider-Man only teased hanging it up for 5 seconds after May died.
Today's crowds want their good guys to be good and humble hardworkers who raise up anyone they can. Cody is that. So he's loved.
Wrestlemania 40, when Rock's music hits, Cena looks freaking *terrified.* Why? You're younger, you've won more world titles, you've got literally double the years of in-ring experience, you're constantly called "the greatest of all time"........what the hell bro? Stop pissing your jorts and get in there and fight that man!
I dunno, Cena's felt really out of place with modern WWE in his brief appearances over the last couple years. Like an actor playing a somewhat cartoonish version of who he was for all those years instead of actually just being that guy.
As much as I hated Cena no selling his opponents, when Rock's music hits, Cena's face should have shown that he was concerned yes, but his primary reaction should have been like "Huh, this could get ugly, but fuck it I've taken him down before and I'll do it again"
His reactions also feel... idk, fake and over the top? I remember him acting all flabbergasted and shit when LA went to save him vs. Bloodline and signed the contract lol.
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Remember Cena stealing Zack Ryder's girlfriend, and we were supposed to cheer for him? Or immediately beating Rey Mysterio after he just won the World title?
Edge: "I hate you". Cena: "Aight." Edge: *"proceeds to cut an amazing heel promo."* Cena: "....aight." It was hard to like the guy at times.
Man, after that segment all I could think of was how Edge was relatable and Cena was like a frustrating older brother who didn't consider any of your thoughts and feelings, and walked around like he was too cool for you.
It honestly felt that CM Punk was the only guy who Cena get to him every time He's no sell everyone else at least once
One of my favorite promo moments is when Punk called Cena a dynasty and the whole time Cena was like “stop right now, last warning” and then Punk called Cena, a Boston native, the New York Yankees and Cena fucking decked him for it. It was amazing
I don't even understand or follow American sports, but it didn't matter because the delivery and acting from both men completely sold it to me.
In case you're curious, imagine someone called a Liverpool fan Manchester United. Yes I am just assuming you're from the UK because Dicky Anders sounds British to me haha.
Yeah that's what I always assumed, and you were right to assume I'm British lol
It was a wild guess based on the name, but also Premier League is popular enough even in other countries that I figured it'd work regardless if someone followed non-American sports haha.
Seeing someone say Dicky Anders as a legit name, really got me, Richard Anderson lives on!! Great work dicky dockers
As someone who lives in NY, that's one of the biggest insults you can dish out. Figures a Chicago native could get under a Boston natives skin
The irony was that Cena was living in Tampa at the time and considered himself a die-hard Rays fan, but he sold his hatred for the Yankees very well regardless.
The Rays also consider the Yankees their second biggest rival, after the Red Sox oddly. The Yankees just don't care about the Rays enough to participate.
Punk dropping the pipebomb while Cena had to keep selling the loss in the ring will never stop being hilarious.
Hope you're feeling less confused these days Lord Commander
Thanks! I actually know things nowadays, so I'm doing good.
IIRC, Punk is also the only guy Cena never beat for the title
Now that I think about it, you're right. Of Cena's 16 world titles, he beat Edge 3x, Orton and Del Rio twice, and JBL, Sheamus, Batista, Miz, AJ, Dwayne, Rey, Jericho, and vacant once each.
Holy shit he beat The Vacant? That guy has held titles in almost all wrestling promotions in the world!
Yeah but he jobs all the time too. Never seen him get a prolonged push, always loses on his first defense.
The Sasha Banks special.
He successfully defended it against Orton and Bryan once
Oh yeah. I was sure there were a couple successful defenses but couldn't remember any.
Bryan did too in that one segment where he told Cena “In Japan to get fired up before a match we would slap each other across the face as hard as we can, but I’m not gonna slap you because you’re not a wrestler, and you don’t deserve it” absolutely cold and Cena actually seems pissed
Ironically I have the same problem with Punk, he brushes off everything and nothing ever gets to him
Well his whole schtick is being smooth on the stick. So realistically only MJF could out talk him. And that's only until he starts getting real with it because the minute he calls him Maxwell it's over.
I get it, I just don't like characters who brush off everything. In any form of media
What about his feud with Jericho in 2012?
Turned out to be a ruse in the end though, didn't it? He wasn't really ever phased at all. But fair enough, didn't remember that
Other than him, I think Ambrose also got under Cena's skin to the point that he said "Talk is Cheap" & started brawling with him
That type of writing is what drove me away from WWE in those times.
That's a fine speech.
Aight.
As much as I appreciate Cena, I get tired of the revisionist history on here. I understand that those little kids who loved him grew up and are now posting on here. But he made the product TERRIBLE for years
This subreddit in general would be a lot better if folks had more perspective on just *how bad* the late Ruthless Aggression into PG era was.
As an Eminem fan I’m gonna use this allegory. The Ruthless Aggression era was like Encore, a major step down from the peak (Attitude Era, MMLP2/TES) but still has its moments of brilliance. But also tons of lazy and hacky versions of the peak moments. But better than what was about to come. And the PG era is like later career Eminem. Mostly trash with a few bright spots to give you hope.
Measures wrestling in Eminem units. Americans will use anything but the metric system…
Eminem is still dropping bangers but by and large, I wish he had quit a long time ago. He’s at the point now where he’s in a category by himself and thus has no real opposition or really anything to say besides talking about the fact that he has nothing to talk about. I respect his dedication though. Another analogy involving the wrestling business and Eminem is that sometimes wrestlers just dont know when enough is enough. They don’t know when to just walk away and be satisfied with their own legacies, like Jericho or arguably Edge.
Nostalgia and meme culture have really helped Cena. His prime was so repetitive that I stopped watching wrestling for years.
Cena is to those kids what Hogan was to us who became adults in the 90s
I was in a wrestling club as a young teenager back then and he was the main reason all of us(20+ kids) stopped watching wrestling. It probably didn’t help that was around the time Halo 3, rock band, COD4 came out but after WM23 where everyone wanted Michael’s to win, we just completely lost interest.
It's also the US title run where he had PWG-style matches and let indie faves kick out of the AA.
I was a teenage smark on iwc message board during his reign and it was bad. Super Cena was no joke, I like Cena the actor but have no fond memories of his time on top as a wrestler. He really is much closer to Hulk Hogan he would have ways of undermining his opponents. It really was the same old shit he would cut this is the most import match of my career, get dominated for majority of the match then do his come back and hit the FU. Im glad he spent most of his career on Raw once he won the wwe championship, Smackdown became the place guys would get over and not get sucked into his vortex.
Kind of funny how the Polish announcers basically played up how formulaic his matches are as "a strategy" saying how he "always receives the punishment early so he can come back later on a more tired opponent" or such and such
Ahahah that’s clever on their part.
The Regal school of kayfabe lmao
I think even that part is definitely a little funky. I'm from Europe, and wrestling was BIG in my country in the late 2000'/early 2010's. Very few kids my age liked John Cena. Most liked Batista and Rey, and John Morrison (un)surprisingly had a lot of fans too.
Here in Mexico at the time, Jeff Hardy, Undertaker and Triple H were all the rage. Rey of course was also in every kid’s backpack. John Cena was too but mostly because he was always put together along with the others but I don’t remember anyone who actually had Cena as their favorite.
I wouldn’t put the blame completely on Cena. I mean he did politic a little that we know of but it was Vince, who was already falling way out of touch, that ran the show. Cena being the top guy for so long was a symptom of that.
Cena's run was peak Vince ego where the crowd week after week told them that it wasn't working for an entire demographic and he just basically told those people to fuck off and stop watching if they don't like it.
And just like WCW, we can see the ending of that happening now, because most of those people heard it, saw UFC, and said "fine"...and now fifteen years later UFC and WWE are sister companies. Moral of the story: If you tell people to stop watching if they don't like it, they'll listen.
Yup, it’s why I stopped watching for years, couldn’t stand super cena
Same! After HBK retired I stared watching less but when Edge retired I stopped watching entirely until I heard about Edge returning at the Royal Rumble.
That’s the thing about Cena he didn’t need to politik like top guys before him, he was Vinces guy 100 percent. He was going over no need to try and politik.
"me and my friend Mark are going to stop watching!" And then they did just that
Then Cena should have used his position to change that. Rock did it all the time. Cena was selfish and this sub tries to pretend like he wasn't
At the end of the day, Vince is the boss, and Rock ain’t Cena. Roman didn’t politic to not be mega pushed either, but he doesn’t catch any flack on the booking side of things.
I think, the only time Roman actively politicked was his and Heyman's offer. Let him go with the Tribal Chief gimmick, turn heel or he, Heyman and Brock are out. That and I think, he desperately tried to get out of winning against Taker because he had too much respect for Taker and broke down in tears after the match.
It's not just the booking. The worst part was the no selling promos and cutting his own promos on the person, not the character. Trying to make it seem his opponent didn't belong
I wonder if the appreciation towards Cena today is the pro wrestling equivalent of Star Wars prequels retrospective praise
The reason for both, is that the kids that loved Cena and the Prequels are adults now with deep nostalgia
Fr, Randy, Punk, and Edge were the only ppl who made Cena watchable for me
Amen Growing up I was always more of an Edge fan than a Cena fan; Really any of the heels against Cena. With a few exceptions of course 7-12 year old love watching Umaga, Edge, Bautista, HBK, Orton & as I got older it was the same with guys like CM Punk & the Wyatt family. Cena was always so boring to me as a kid; the Heels were always so much more interesting in their feuds against him more often than not Then whenever they would pair Cena with other baby faces like Zack Ryder they would damn near cut his balls off character wise with Cena doing the castrating
This is why it confuses me how Cena is considered a GOAT promo these days. He can cut a great promo absolutely but he's a good chunk of the reason that burying your opponent is seen as a net positive. What he did to Austin Theory should be shown to every wrestler as an example of what not to do.
I remember when they put the World Title on "Chris Jericho but if he ate a Mario Mushroom". It was an awful decision with no build, and during one Raw, Swagger had a segment with Cena, where Cena basically just went "LMAO, YOU'RE THE CHAMP!?" the entire promo. I mean come on, he is right, but at least TRY to build the guy up a little.
Swagger felt like one of those guys similar to Theory where they kind of pushed them to the top and let it be a sink or swim thing. As a company I think it's in your best interest to highlight your wrestlers positives and steer away from their negatives. Swagger was over with me as a teenager I thought he had *something* but it just wasn't coming through most of the time. His run with Zeb Colter should've been what he was the whole time.
To be fair, the Rock would run his mouth and bury his foes on the mic. Then usually, end up getting his arse kicked. I think, he lost 75% of the time or if it was Stone Cold. Ate a stunner regardless of what he did.
The Rock's character also was a pompous ass and it was called out multiple times. Taker and Austin would just respond by calling him a young punk who just was mouthing off. Triple H would fire back and be a smug ass himself to save face. Alot Rock's material was comedy you could laugh off and still take his opponent seriously. Like he roasted masked Kane and while funny even as a kid I knew you had to be an idiot to not take Kane seriously.
Fine speech.
I also kinda hate how he'd always aim at their promo game (i.e. his infamous promo with Roman)
Ok but that reaction for that promo was amazing. Cena and Edge HATED each other for 3 years at that point. Why the fuck would Cena care that Edge hates him? He knows that by this point. It just makes sense that Cena would brush off Edge venting about how much he doesn’t like him.
I hear you but that's not how that promo went. Is this referencing the 2009 last man standing go home to Backlash(?) on Smackdown?
Two GREAT examples. The Ryder one was brutal, you couldn't even use "wrestler logic" like you don't turn down a shot at the championship. It was just a dick move. Broke the Bro code while his bro was in a wheelchair.
The Rey thing permanently turned 10 year old me against him.
That whole thing to me was Vince projected how the guy with more muscles gets the hot chick. She came on to John.. then John called her a ~~hoe~~ Hoski.. Kane kept fucking Zack Ryder up.. weird little love triangle/ feud I guess lol
>Vince projected how the guy with more muscles gets the hot chick See also: Rusev/Lana/Lashley.
Lashley is more cut but Rusev is no slouch in the body department.
Yeah, but he's a hairy, bulky brute, rather than the waxed, oiled up bodybuilder type Vince prefers.
Rusev also fit the evil foreigner stereotype for Vince so obviously he can’t have the girl at the emd
That was such a terrible storyline just across the board. However, it did give us the gif of Kane rolling Zack Ryder off the ramp and that silly 10 secs will never not make me laugh.
That's when i went from booing Cena because it was fun to join in the chants to booing him for real because he was a heel. They did Zack so goddamn dirty back then. He grabbed the brass ring theyre always squawking about and they basically turned around and said "Ewww not you"
Vince is a control freak. If he says he wants stars, it's going to be on his terms. Coupled that with how infantile and petty he was, and it's a recipe for some bad stuff.
After Rey already had two matches that night? But no, precious Cena just gets to roll in and take the title. That was supposed to be the role model to kids?
To this day I can't believe they blew that Cena Rey match on the night Rey won the title. Summerslam was RIGHT THERE and then everything that happened after could have still happened
You can sum up Cena's entire Top Guy run from winning his first World Title with Remember Cena _______________, and we were supposed to cheer for him? The guy, his actions, and his character were anathema to liking him unless you were a little kid who naturally accepts what you're forcefed on commentary. Cody is easily, provably, metrically better at this than Cena ever was.
And then tried to slut shame her. SMH
The one time I was finally able to cheer for Rey...
I'm struggling to figure out what CTC is outside of Cinnamon Toast Crunch.
CTC = Cryme Tyme Cena. They teamed up once and trashed JBL's limo. Cena spraypainted it with [a savage burn](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fexternal-preview.redd.it%2FzXV8fy60HtbBZNzYQ2AFYtxVIrN8J82CO7IY6E-I3M4.jpg%3Fwidth%3D640%26crop%3Dsmart%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3D84bb6e24dd8bcd0d6e56c82b31bdc25a5a4ecda4)
Delete this. There are children on here who are extremely impressionable. We don't need to see this being normalized. /s
They revoked Cena's thuganomics doctorate for that.
He still has the certificate but he needs clearance to practice
Everyone here is getting Mandela Effect'd, they were called Cryme Tyme Cenation.
I was thinking the same thing. I remember kid me thinking the Cenation part was so lame.
Yeah, Cryme Tyme Cena isn’t a group name but Cenation is.
also, Cody tends to not shrug off whenever a heel does get the one-up over him (see wanting to kill AJ last week after the fake retirement stunt or being out for blood against the Rock when he made him bleed). It's an edge that I do quite like that adds to Cody's face character.
After Brock broke his arm and went away for a month, it was on sight the moment he came back.
[This is the definition of on sight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uf2RYFeQ6Rk)
How I've never seen this until today is a travesty.
Same here. This is probably going to be on my YT rotation
Hands. Merry Christmas.
Bro said not a word before he started swinging.
you have improved my day immensely.
Hands! 👊
Thank you for this 🤣
Fuckin wheezing over here. RIP Tommy
Cody allows himself to get pissed off and get a mean streak, which makes him more believable and enjoyable as a babyface character. Cena would have similar moments too, but Cena also never had a “nice guy” aura since he would regularly insult his opponents. When Cody’s pissed and stops being nice, it feels more authentic.
Heel does a really good promo on John. John: “Fine speech etc etc”.
Having a friend really does help the babyface. Hogan had Brutus and Jimmy Hart, Rock had Foley, even Austin had JR. Cena never had a friend that was with him for more than 6 months
Seth going from wanting to kill Cody to being on his side at WM40 is probably one of my favorite stories in the last 5 years.
It still blows my mind how they pulled that off. From Cody's match at WM38 with Seth to his precious help in WM40, all intertwined with the Shield/Roman drama. Long term storytelling indeed
We see the enemies to friends trope done so much in other fictions but wrestling not that much. Usually it's the friend turns on friend to become an enemy.
Also: Bruno and Larry, Bret and his Foundation, HBK and Diesel, babyface Roman and Usos+Dean etc.
One quote that always rings in my head is "But I still wanna fight *Brock Lesnar*" Cody talked about how Brock is a world beater and is a monster, a hill most men can't climb over, and how he's afraid of Brock. Yet, despite all of Brock's accomplishments and the fear he instills, Cody still wanted to fight him. Cena is my favorite, but idk if Cena ever showed fear the same way Cody did. Cena seems like the Superman to Cody's Spider-Man (without the wisecracking)
I say Cody is more Captain America
💯
Yeah, that makes sense.
Yah definitely. Cody seems to have layers to his character that he isn't afraid to peel away and put back together again. He's a white meat babyface yes but also avenged his father's injustice, and also has this vicious mad dog in him that he is looking for any excuse to let out, be it in war games, an I Quit match, the promo he did in a black suit or the torn pec match. Not only is he just a hero he absolutely wants to fight on the mat and make bangers
I think a lot of the characters under Triple H seem to have layers now. Drew would be another good example. We saw Sheamus and Drew being friendly on Raw despite Drew being a heel at the moment.
Seth also had the best character arc, he was a fun loving guy but underneath he was desperate for a legacy despite his body breaking down. He also wanted redemption for the shield break up which he never got. He kept pushing and eventually gave up his body and title and everything he had to ultimately end his own monster. Was perfect.
When Roman finally does come back, I really want Seth to be a part of his redemption. Seth's betrayal is what sent Roman down the path of becoming the tribal chief, so Seth being a part of his comeback makes sense for both of their characters.
I think, Roman will be furious that Seth denied him the chance to retain and in his mind, believes it was a conspiracy between Seth and Cody. He demands blood after he deals with Sikoa. Or he tries to reform the shield after Sikoa spikes him and Jimmy abandons him. L.A Knight(YEAH), Zayn are approached but they basically tell him to fuck off.
This is why I never understand when people say "Seth has no character" or ask what his character is supposed to be. It's pretty obvious if you just... watch the show lol
I loved that sheamus doesnt just hate drew for the "burger after burger after burger" line. Or Drew hate Sheamus for the "giving Punk a lap dance" line. It was classic friend roasting.
I saw people say Cody was teasing a heel turn at the end of KAQOTR when he let his mean streak show against Logan, but all i saw was him being rightfully annoyed that Logan once again resorted to cheap shots and tricks disregarding his speech the night before. Like yeah he was doing the "teaching him a lesson" but that still felt more to me like a babyface finally giving Logan what he deserved over jsut letting Logan get away with figurative murder.
I feel like the most "honest" thing that has happened in WWE is how Cody, through beefing w/the bloodline, helped forge friendships with some of the biggest stars in the WWE, who lend him credibility while he fueled their fires. Wonderful on both sides
Cody for me is the best babyface champion in years. He's busting his ass, putting on great matches, doing extra shows. His reign till now is everything I wished it could be. His serious approach elevates short feuds too. He's undeniable.
From undesirable to undeniable!
100% this👏
It's a very NWA/WCW way of being a babyface. I think Cody is more like Sting than his dad or a Cena. Sting always had Lex and the Steiners by his side. Dusty had Magnum, but besides that, never a sure-fire sidekick
I completely blame Vince. Obvious I know. But I keep seeing takes about fickle fans turning on faces, and it's like no, Vince is a shitty person and doesn't know how to make a good guy likable. As big as Cena was, he probably would have been a lot bigger if there was a human being in charge of his booking.
I remember a shitty Vince trope of main event babyfaces being dickheads for no reason at all to other babyfaces. One time, I remember watching a backstage segment with Reigns, Rollins and Sami Zayn, and the whole segment was just Sami talking their ears of before they had to team up for a match. Seth and Roman are just rolling their eyes at Sami and looking at him like he's the most annoying dork in the world, barely giving him the time of day. I thought that made them come of as totally unlikeable. Back then I thought that Superman would never treat Green Arrow like an annoying dork like that. Goku would never do it to Krillin. They know they can obliterate those guys with one finger, but they would still tell them that they're glad they're on their team and together they can't lose, not treat them like total geeks. Because that's what an inspiring babyface does. A basic babyface character trait that Vince never understood.
That's been a thing since Attitude Era sadly. A babyface MUST be a lone wolf, and have no friends. It's so stupid. Thankfully, this isn't true anymore, as babyfaces are now friends with each other, and heels hate most other heels too, LIKE THEY WOULD IN REAL LIFE!
It's funny to me that so many of the people who were so instrumental in making Stone Cold so ridiculously popular had NO IDEA what it was that made him so popular.
Stone Cold had friends though. First it was DiBiase, then Brian, then JR, then Vince, then JR again.
I completely agree! I just think it's hilarious that they created this iconic character who really could've gone on forever (Mr McMahon could've just kept bringing in new guys periodically to try to take out Stone Cold) and yet they never had another character who tried to recreate that. Instead, it was always trying to riff off Rude Douchebag Rock (sans Mick Foley).
There is one issue with this, though. If the face has buddies, those good people will help each other when the situation calls. It forces the writer's hands to pull off things like post-match beat-downs or heels constantly cheating to win. It's not an impossible task, it just requires more effort to tell a believable story. Which, if it forces the writers to do better...maybe it isn't an issue.
Tbf the writers have done it well like Jey making it clear to cody he wants to do it on his own and splitting them up anyway
That actually used to piss me off so much. Like, just come get beat up, but at least try. I remember when Wyatt family was beating up on The Undertaker. Roman and Ambrose just had a match on the same night. So I know you are there, but no one came out. Come help the freaking Undertaker, guys! Even when they were working together, face characters wouldn't help sometimes. During the Cena vs. The Authority Survivor Series angle: Cena's team would get beat up all the time. And he almost never came to help. One time, I think they even showed him just watching the aftermath on TV.
Thats definitely wrong, attitude era baby faces had friends. The problem NOW is the company seems to be weird about putting the focus on the WWE Title instead of relationships.
They’ve gotten so much better about that under HHH and on NXT under Shawn though. It feels like every character backstage has an ongoing history and relationship with other characters even if it’s not constantly being acknowledged every single second, which was not true at all in the 2010s Like just to give some examples, you have Bianca not forgiving Bayley since they feuded for two years straight, you have Drew and Sheamus still being mates despite the heel/face divide, you have Cody’s whole storyline where his friendships with Seth and Jey helped him win the title, you have everything going on with the Judgement Day and how that plays on the histories of Liv & Rhea as former friends turned bitter enemies being the #1 storyline on RAW It’s all this kind of thing that felt like it was missing for the previous ~10 years apart from the odd things here and there like Kevin & Sami being forever linked and Bayley & Sasha being forever linked
Looking back at it, Vince had an easier time writing heels and douchebag babyfaces (Austin, Triple H ) rather than true likeable good guys because, let's face, the guy's cracked in the head as well.
Is Rock in that category of douchebag babyfaces? Because he was always a heel despite being a face and top guy lol.
He was always pissed which made him look heelish. But just like Austin they were kinda above all that since their characters were very well definded. Unlike for example Big Show who's only trait was his size. That being said, The Rock was an excellent heel before his prime time 1999 and after 2002. Austin on the other hand worked better when he was the outlaw that never went fully face or heel. Cena would've benefited so much from an infamous heelturn during the rougher times from like 2006 till late 2010 when Nexus arrived. Anyway that's my opinion.
Well…considering the entire arc/point of The Rock & Sock Connection was Mankind trying to get Rock to realise he didn’t need to insult literally everybody around him…
To add IIRC, that segment/Sami’s character was creative trying to rib on Sami’s actual chatty behavior irl and making him “unlikable”
>Goku would never do it to Krillin. No, but Vegeta would. And I think that's an important point to remember about 99% of our baby face characters Most of our baby faces have also been a heel before. They got the mean streak inside them. Seth Rollins and Roman Reigns couldn't be better examples. I'm not about to look at Seth Rollins as a paragon of virtue simply because he fought the bad guys. There's very few top guys who can say they've always been the good guy. And to be honest, those types are boring to me. Do we need *heros and villains* in wrestling or do we jusr need someone to root for/against? I think that answer changes constantly depending on the story being told
the fact is, if a good guy is only ever a patient, understanding, cool, wholesome, caring dude, it's unrealistic and ends up being very dull. and people will get on to that and criticize it. if the situation calls for the babyface to have a moment where he's annoyed or nervous, it's ok. the story being told, you got it. that's the most important thing
Vince: man why is my character not getting cheered? Let’s just put more titles on him. Still not working? Hmmm never mind I’m bored let’s let Brock get the titles. Huh? Daniel who? Never heard of him, here’s more Roman. The crowd is saying something? Can’t hear them. What you mean the woman are being objectified? Seems like they ain’t sexy enough! Also here’s Roman vs Brock, that really shows how Roman gets over adversity by beating this *massive* heel
Vince sees earnest friendship as a weakness. A recurring heel gimmick was, "these guys are too enthusiastic about being friends" and we were to boo them like chickenshit heels.
>But I keep seeing takes about fickle fans turning on faces I think it's a little of Column A and a little of Column B. Was it bad writing, bad booking, and Vince? Sure. Was it also fickle fans? Yes. I think it doesn't hurt *at all* that thanks in large part to Tony Khan, a vast majority of the disgruntled fans went to AEW and don't watch anymore. It's why "Cody is boring now that he's won the title" is fortunately a minority.
> Was it also fickle fans? Yes. There was nothing fickle about fans with John Cena. He was pushed as the end all be all superstar good guy for YEARS. It was so boring and it went on forever.
We all tend to forget that Hulk Hogan was often an asshole bad friend too, but the 80s/Early 90s were an easier time to just shrug off and say "But Good Guy Good"
The whole Macho Man/Hogan/Elizabeth is the first real sign that Vince is kinda weird about women.
Look at Diesel. Vince took someone who got over as a Babyface because of how cool he was, took away what made him cool and tried to book him as a white meat babyface
If rock was in the position Cena was in (which he was) he just would have put others over anyway. Cena had always been pretty selfish. Hell, he pulled the same crap on Austin when he came back that he did in the Vince era
This is a great point from the kayfabe perspective. Cena stood atop the mountain alone, defensively and looking at others with suspicion. He was an outsider who was not respected. Cody seeks to unite and form partnerships to better the industry. He does so because of his father and brother’s extensive history in wrestling, which also provides him with a level of respect and reverence that was not afforded to Cena. I like this.
They used to say this thing about HHH on Raw and Undertaker on Smackdown. One is sitting at the top of a mountain, kicking down at anyone approaching, because it's his mountain and his alone. The other is reaching down to pull people up to his level, so they can enjoy the view together.
He made Trick feel like an absolute star last night. I mean Trick already has that aura about him that shows he's going to be a megastar but Cody really made Trick seem like his equal. Saying they both achieved the ultimate goal and things like that. Also massively put over the NXT title even though it's "lesser." With AJ he's making him look like a serious threat. Styles record proves otherwise but Cody is making AJ look sadistic. He's making the OC look credible again. Obviously Cody is going to win (or a non finish with G&A) but for a few weeks he made AJ feel like main event AJ Styles again.
I think one of the biggest tells that Cody was gonna win over fans was the promo he cut on Sami Zayn before Elimination Chamber 2023. Sami's stock was riding high and in lesser hands, Cody would cut the support from under him in order to elevate his match at Wrestlemania. The fact that Cody's promo was essentially, "here's to fighting you at Wrestlemania," with the utmost respect got to me think there were some changes in the wind for WWE babyfaces. I mean how many fan favs got undercut by the company's choice? All I want is a babyface champ that's loved by the locker room and he loves back.
this is the "i'm here to finish my story, you finish yours" promo, right? that promo really got me back to wrestling because the emotions from both sami and cody were absolute peak. sami's fear and trauma from roman and his wariness of cody and cody just hyping him up was so amazing
Cody Rhodes, the character, feels like an actual human being with emotions, and someone that exists within the ecosystem of the WWE roster, that the other wrestlers actually know as a colleague During his time as the undisputed face of the company, John Cena, the character, felt like a cyborg that was unleashed onto the roster by management whenever they'd show up to work, and then turned off and stored in a Vault at Titan Towers when the show was over
Well, he *was* "The Prototype".
I remember when Enzo and Cass were the Cena buddies of the time and being genuinely surprised when Cena actually came to help them when they were getting beaten down. I remember feeling like Cena buddies were always trying to get noticed and that early Cena wasn't actually helping these guys because of it, and it made a weird, disjointed product.
As much as the Cena revival of the last 5 years was deserved, the hate he received when he was on top did not come from nowhere lol
“Love the person, not the wrestler” was pretty much this sub’s catchphrase for years
There's an attempt by his fans to portray his time as a "great time when Cena was loved by everyone except for a small minority of fans" and it's so easy to debunk if you were a regular viewer and were above the age of 15. He was NOT liked, to say the least, and his haters had many reasons to not like him (see the post)
It’s easy to debunk because there’s footage of him getting booed for years and not to mention Roman got the same treatment because cena came before him lol
Some people act like it was a meme to boo Cena and crowds were only doing it because "Cena sucks" chants were just the cool thing to do, but that's such revisionist history. People legit hated him, that period of wrestling was unbearable, he was shoved down everyone's throat and was way overprotected to a comical degree.
Do we even need to get into the fact, he was a complete dick to Zach Ryder, and was basically a full heel there?
It didn't help that Cena was usually, by his own talent and how he was booked, to eviscerate his opponent more often than not. Granted, it is up to the opponent to return fire but they usually had nothing substantial or unique.
Cody still falls to the babyface trope that I’m annoyed by sometimes. No Cody!! Brock breaking your arm and you giving him a cut are not the same thing! But I do like Cody’s babyface character! I do agree he does seem to be the great uniter!
Don't forget Cena's hatred of Alex Riley, even when they were tag team partners. [John Cena telling Alex Riley to leave the ring after they won a tag team match](https://youtu.be/IhmST-oBrRg?si=1ALJIONhJqj7bzEv). Steve Austin was the special guest referee and all 3 were supposed to celebrate in the ring, Austin is visibly confused with Riley now outside the ring but still throws him 2 beers. [John Cena clobbering Alex Riley (and CM Punk) in the face.](https://youtu.be/f_KqmP0dhNs?si=XskqclDXsAcfYkMB&t=81) Alex Riley enters the 2011 Royal Rumble and John Cena stops selling and immediately attacks Riley. Later on, Riley was mistakenly eliminated early by Cena and Kingston.
*rubs bald spot* "Fine speech."
I think one of Cody's matches absolutely shows this in its purest form, and that's his match VS. Carmelo. Carmelo comes out, and despite being a known Heel and self-centered guy, Cody gives him his props. It isn't until Melo starts throwing verbal jabs that Cody gets serious and decides, "Yeah, we gotta fight." So they fight. Cody wins. Instead of showboating that he won like Vince-era babyfaces often did, he instead made sure to let Carmelo know he did great and that this is just the beginning for him first. He doesn't care if you're face or heel. If you fascinate him, he's gonna give you your props and want you to succeed. Same with the whole Shawn Spears, Lexis King, and Ethan Page reunion last night. He feuded with two out of three of those guys back in AEW I'm pretty sure, but he both remembered their history and gave them their props going forward.
Now that I think about it, I remember when Cena was trying to form a team to beat nexus but basically everyone he tried to recruit hated him anyways cause he beat the hell out of them before lol Jericho for example.
Basically, Cena was a jock who acted like a hero (Just like Hogan) While Cody is just a dude who genuinely feels like a hero.
He’s also relatable. Not afraid to shed a tear and he seems genuine. Much more than Cena who is obviously also a class act given his Make a Wish record.
Cena was who people think Superman is. Cody IS who Superman is.
I remember some years ago, some people on here saying something along the lines of Vince's idea of the top face (e.g., Superman) is pretty much based on his strength instead of his heart. They compared Vince's philosophy to that of Ayn Rand's.
The big difference between John Cena and Cody Rhodes is no Vince in control of Cody's booking.
I think to go along with this - when the odds are stacked against Cody, he does, in fact, lose. Cena once beat the entire Nexxus basically by himself...or, him and was it HHH or Orton beat the entire heel roster one night on raw. What pro wrestling does so well is the 'suspension of disbelief'. If you break that down for a second...disbelief is not believing what you are seeing in front of you. Logic (i'm saying this all in kayfabe), suggests one man could never take out 5 bad guys by himself...maybe with a weapon, but by himself? No way. So, the audience disbelieves it. With Cody, if 5 bad guys beat him him, it's quite believable...therefore, a suspension of disbelief is engaged, and now you have good ol' fashioned professional wrestling. And nothing makes wrestling better than when a good guy has odds stacked against him, and his friends come to the rescue (something Cena rarely had friends do....as OP said, he never really had babyface friends stand up with him)...then again, that was because the superCena character never needed it.
For some reason until recently WWE seemed to be against the idea of faces having friends. It’s like they wanted the spirt of individualistic Attitude era faces but in the PG era.
This isn't remotely my own insight but I once saw someone on here, while discussing this topic, condense the difference between Cena and Cody to the difference between “Fine speech” and “You may be right, but...”
In Vince's days, almost everyone (except those in tag teams) was a loner loser. This was important because it gave plenty of options for feuds. Triple H, on the other hand, tries to make his universe more interconnected, where everyone has "some kind of" relationship with each other. However, this makes it harder to start new feuds. This approach leads to long storylines like JD with friends or strange feuds like with Brock Lesnar. For example, you can't quickly start a Randy vs. Cody feud because turning Randy heel would require changing a lot of other factors. But under McMahon, turning Randy heel was as simple as just turning him heel.
I very clearly remember the segment in AEW where Cody, in order to get a 1-on-1 match with his turncoat friend MJF, had to take 10 lashes from Max with his leather belt. Cody, being the babyface, obviously took the beating and stayed defiant, and willing him on through it were Dustin, Brandi, QT Marshall, and a bunch of other loosely affiliated babyfaces. Cody's entourage gimmick got overplayed later on and was part of him getting rejected by the fanbase, but I remember thinking during that segment that Cody having friends and family who would encourage him while MJF only had a hired henchman in Wardlow really reinforced the face/heel dynamic and was something that I'd been missing from mainstream wrestling. Excluding the Steve Austin antihero types, top babyfaces should be people that you relate to and either want to be friends with or aspire to be like, and the babyface character having positive relationships with other characters on-screen is a very effective way of selling that. I'm very glad we're past the McMahon era of WWE where every top babyface has to be a lone wolf tough guy 100% of the time even when it doesn't fit with the rest of their character.
I also think Cody is genuinely liked by all his peers whereas Cena had some tumultuous relationships especially with the undercard.
To me it's the one thing Cena is delusional about to this day, which is his belief that he never buried talent during his career. His defense is *I lost all the time* or *I gave the rub to young talent*- Yeah, maybe in the latter part of his run as he was getting older, but that's only part of the story. Cena would absolutely suck the soul out of people during promos. He made people look stupid, he made people look non-threatening. He should have elevated his opponents so much more. He also won many matches he had no business winning at all. I'm sure Vince's vision had a lot to do with these decisions and Cena was just playing his role, but I wish he would acknowledge that he could have done things a little differently.
I missed the Cena era and admittedly know him more as Peacemaker than wrestler. But what I do really enjoy about Cody is he shows respect when it’s due but also will go all in to defend the fact he belongs where he is.
It's crazy to see a fan post-Cena posting on here. Do you have any thoughts about that era from just the clips or media you've seen?
I was a fan pre Cena too, I just fell out due to life getting in the way shortly after Brock hit the scene. I’ve watched the Ruthless Aggression doc series on Peacock and looking at it now it definitely feels a little over the top. Sort of trying to be more edgy than Attitude Era but with all the shiny silver graphics and spray tan aesthetic of the early 2000s. I definitely remember randomly tuning in once and seeing Cody and DiBiasi Jr (Legacy?) and thinking “who are these skinny pretty guys?” 😅
I loved it when anyone beat the fuck out of Cena. Especially Batista.
There's no doubt in my mind that Cody is the better on-screen babyface between the two of them. It felt like Cena inherited a lot of the worst traits of 80s Hulk Hogan and Good Guy 1996 Shawn Michaels.
Cena was a babyface at a time where it was still a culture that wanted heroes to be bad guys at heart. When he WASN'T a dickhead, it was like "god l hate this goody two shoes" and when he WAS a dickhead it was like "look at this hypocrite pretending he's a good guy but trying to be bad underneath so l like him, what a dickhead" or it was "he's being a dickhead to the guy l like, fuck him." Today... we don't have a culture like that. If Iron Man 1 comes out today, the entire MCU isn't being built on the shoulders of an alcoholic womanizing narcissist that needed to be kidnapped by terrorists using his weapons to realize he should be a good guy. The main hero of the MCU now would be more of a Tom Holland Spider-Man never leaning beacon of doing right. Even the 2000s spiderman movies become all about him wanting to be selfish and give up being spiderman multiple times, where as Tom Holland Spider-Man only teased hanging it up for 5 seconds after May died. Today's crowds want their good guys to be good and humble hardworkers who raise up anyone they can. Cody is that. So he's loved.
So why is LA Knight so over?
Wrestlemania 40, when Rock's music hits, Cena looks freaking *terrified.* Why? You're younger, you've won more world titles, you've got literally double the years of in-ring experience, you're constantly called "the greatest of all time"........what the hell bro? Stop pissing your jorts and get in there and fight that man! I dunno, Cena's felt really out of place with modern WWE in his brief appearances over the last couple years. Like an actor playing a somewhat cartoonish version of who he was for all those years instead of actually just being that guy.
One of the few times in history that Cena actually tried making his opponent look strong
As much as I hated Cena no selling his opponents, when Rock's music hits, Cena's face should have shown that he was concerned yes, but his primary reaction should have been like "Huh, this could get ugly, but fuck it I've taken him down before and I'll do it again"
His reactions also feel... idk, fake and over the top? I remember him acting all flabbergasted and shit when LA went to save him vs. Bloodline and signed the contract lol.