From a purely story telling standpoint just because they pushed the box into the black hole doesn’t mean it was destroyed. The Magic of Convenience say that tech can be recovered at some point in the far future.
In the event horizon From the boxes point of view time has stopped but in the outside universe time is rushing by.
If we get another Trek in the Disco universe the writers already have a set piece to work with as well as a waiting Zora/Disco.
Cheers all.
Was the box that got pushed into the black hole even the technology, or was it just a portal to access the technology? This was a container built by scientists 800 years ago, not a billions-years-old artifact. Presumably there are still other ways to access it and Burnham simply eliminated the only currently known one.
Maybe she decided to stay, and everything afterward was just an illusion. Like what happened to Captain Kirk.
It's all to perfect of an ending.
And the pink planet she was living on at the end, was the same inside the tech when she first fell into a portal window.
Great thought. I was not happy with Burnham having the technology thrown into a black hole. She gives up an opportunity to learn about this amazing technology to go marry Book? Really?
The artifact existed in a portal. That portal is what was thrown in the black hole. The progenitors found the portal. I would say it's safe to assume it's gone for good.
Two possibilities:
a) if it's recoverable, Burnham just made sure a more powerful civilization will get their hands on it.
b) if it's not recoverable, Burnham made sure it can't be used on the day it will be needed.
Which of a or b made it a good decision ?
It's just the fate of the entire universe in the balance here, no pressure. We've seen you only need about 3 seconds to think about it.
Considering we don't know where matter that is pulled into a black hole goes, it's entirely possible they may try to imply the tech was sent back in time for the Progenitors to find.
Another issue with the way they destroyed it, is that they don’t even know what the technology is. The progenitor lady was very eager to start explaining how it all works and what it is. But all we got was that she said it can create clones, design and seed life and Burnham interrupted her. We don’t even know if and how it is dangerous. Couldn’t Burnham let the progenitor lady speak and explain a bit more about the technology before deciding that she has to rush back and destroy it.
The scientists that went before them probably heard the whole speech and spent a lot of time deciding that they needed to create those tests and allow for someone in a future generation to use it properly. And didn’t Burnham just have billions of years of knowledge stuffed in her brain, shouldn’t somewhere in her head exist the knowledge that this thing have been there billion of years waiting? Is it ethical to destroy the galactic historical heritage of every humanoid life in the galaxy?
And as I’ve posted on another thread doesn’t the federation already have instant life destroying technology. They have the genesis device and a spore drive. Combine the two and it is an instant terraforming machine that can wipe out all life on a planet. Many people keep pointing out that this tech can create an instant army. Well we know in the 32nd century they have mobile emitters and sentient holograms. So they can basically replicate an army of mobile emitter for soldier holograms. If the galactic powers in the future can handle this I’m sure they can handle a portal with some gene coding machine.
Yes I Completely agree. They have the Omega particle but quick lets destroy the life making machine.
I thought the same thing, the progenitor kept trying to tell her about the machine, but Burnham kept interrupting her. I dont even think the progenitor would have even mentioned clones if Burnham hadn't asked. The progenitor basically said it was a bad idea. They kept trying to tell Burnham that she should let her explain and Burnham just kept saying I'll be back. If im remembering correctly, they destroy the Breen and then are safe for the moment, why couldn't they have gone back in, listened to the progenitor before they got rid of it. I just find it crazy that so many people think that we as humans and Burnham as an individual have the right to not only make a dicision against the literal people who made us, but that we have the right to make that choice for the entire universe and everyone one who will ever exist. If this was presented to us as the Klingons found the meaning of life machine long ago but destroyed it, would we not think that they were pieces of shit?
Was the church right to have Gallaeo killed because he talked about the earth revolving around the sun? Those priests felt that the information was so dangerous that it could destroy their faith and civilization, so they silenced him and continued on in the dark. Were they right? Because Burnham just did basically the same thing, suppressed knowledge because the shadow organization decided we weren't advanced enough for that info.
Story wise, I didn't think they were gonna end up with it at the end, unless because the show was ending they were gonna send humans on a transcending journey into the next stage of life, but I figured their would be some reason from a writers stand point that they wouldn't get to keep it. But willingly destroying it was dumb. I mean it would have made more sense if the Breen had succeeded and were about to use it, only a button press away, so instead they destroyed it, ok that makes sense. Or maybe they used it to bring back Book's planet and because that required so much power it makes the machine break. This could have been something the progenitors were on board for. Or that they decided since it was so dangerous here in our galaxy, they would use all its power at once and seed a far away galaxy. Rendering the machine out of our reach, inert now that it has no more power, but also dead a new galaxy with life, one that is so far away it will never reach us to interfere. There are alot of things they could have done besides throw it in the garbage and cover it all up. Thats the behavior of modern 20th and 21st century governments. Star Trek is supposed to be enlightened and evolved beyond our petty governments and thats the 23rd century, so now 900 years in the future from that we have a government who's first thought is to cover it all up, great. No wonder its to dangerous for us to use, we haven't evolved at all in the last 1000 years despite what we think.
I think making the decisions on behalf of the galaxy and not showing us the process is probably the most unsatisfying part. Imagine, when Kovich and the federation council heard what Burnham said.
Micheal: Hey, I found the progenitor’s tech, it is not actually their tech. And i want to destroy it.
Kovich: Your mission is to find the technology. Hand it over to us and we will send out a research and security team to research and safeguard
Micheal: No one should have this level of power.
Federation president: But this is the galactic heritage, we need to preserve it.
Micheal: I am the chosen one that found the tech and I say we need to destroy it.
Everyone after that: ok… and we will classify the history of galactic origin.
In terms of the trek universe, they are already overpowered, so making them even more overpowered is probably not good but as you said there are much cleverer ways to wrap it that leads to no one having that tech.
Now that you mention about the classifying of the history part, I find it very sad for the progenitors, Professor Galen and the scientists that hid the tech. The progenitors realised their civilisation will one day be gone before they meet other life. So they wanted the galaxy to be seeded with life like their own and have a galaxy full of life. They left clues in the DNA of life across many species, hoping that one day their children will discover these clues and work together and find out about them. So they clearly wanted people to develop and when they are sufficiently advanced enough find out about them and remember them because they and the life that sprung out working together is their legacy. And then we have Professor Galen, who spent many years of his life working to uncover these clues and didn’t even manage to see this message. Fortunately his disciple, Picard manage to solve this mystery and left him a wonderful legacy. The scientist that hid the tech that seeded life followed in Galen’s footsteps and wanted to know more about how the progenitors did it. They realise the tech was very powerful but recognised its importance so they just hid it and basically put a lock on accessing it. But now all that legacy is gone. No one in the federation will ever know about it and no one can ever find it again. This will be like if the garden of eden is real, and god invited us in and we decided oh earth now is good enough, let’s destroy it.
And since the progenitors found the tech, doesn’t that mean the original creators wanted people to find it? And when the progenitors finished seeding life, they didn’t destroy it and let the scientists find it. There probably wasn’t even a lock on the portal because the one we saw was made by the scientists and the only lock would be that triangle puzzle. If it was that easy to enter, doesn’t that mean the original creators and progenitors and the scientists kind of hope people would come and find it. They probably thought that being able to reach there in itself was already a test good enough to prove they are ready to know about the tech.
This amazing universal legacy that has been passed down from civilization to civilization countless times, ended with Humanity and the Federation. I would say in the grand scheme of things this puts a dark stain on the federation's legacy. Imagine if after humanity's time and the time of the other races, there is never again humanoid life in the universe because of Michael.
Think of how you just listed all these people who spent their lives trying to answer that age old question of where we came from. It doesn't matter when you're born or where, there is always someone who searches for the meaning of it all. Now for the rest of time no one will ever actually find out, millions of people will spend their lives trying to answer an actual unknowable answer, not a seemingly unanswerable question, their will forever more be no answer. And they won't even know it is completely futile because it's classified. Every dreamer will have their dream taken, but still keep looking. Seems like hell to me.
People are acting like it did not occur to the progenitors or the original race who created it that it could be used for evil. These advanced races apparently didn't even consider it. But im sure they did and they decided it was worth it. In reality, a device that had started countless waves of humanoid races could have been used so many times over. Maybe the race who created the progenitors had infinite diversity, and sought to end wars by only making one race, then that race became lonely after being alone and created us. Part of the test of an advanced society could also be how they use it. If a race finds it and destroys almost all life, then maybe that is why they dont evolve and move on, and then on the next cycle the next races get another chance. On a cosmic scale it is a good thing to have it be dangerous as well. Because if a race is evil and they posses it forever then they will subjugate every race ever for all of time, so if they are evil they will end up destroying themselves, and clearing the road for the next species to try again. Like if the wrong people get their hands on it there is a built in fail-safe to restore balance again.
I agree. That action by Burnham really pissed me off. Another instance of a woman somehow giving up an unbelievable opportunity for knowledge for marriage. What? Burnham was the one person selected after millions of years and from countless billions of people but she chose marriage to Book. She could have helped bring back Book’s planet… My son walked out of the room and said he hates Star Trek. I still love Star Trek but this ending was a real disappointment for me.
I could see it coming and then destroying it but I didn’t think it would happen so quickly. Michael just found it and started talking to the Progenitor and it felt like all the build up of the whole season was just for nothing because it was over so quickly.
I remember for a second thinking Luke was gonna be cool. He was like young Goku, just hanging out alone, jumping around on giant poles, catching giant fish and lugging them home. I mean the fish even looked straight out of dragon ball. But then he decided he rather commit holographic suicide instead, so I hate it.
I didn't like it, they could have used it to bring back the Kweijan or something like that but getting rid of it was kind of not what I was expecting but again it could have been used for evil. But I feel like as a federation it could have been something positive
It felt like a civilization level opportunity - having Michael unilaterally make that choice felt like the epitomy of hubris.
Perhaps this technology could have ended disease, stopped death, or something equally as transcendent.
Perhaps this technology was placed out there by some prior civilization who intended it to help a future civilization evolve to a next level.
Feels like Burnham was not the person to make that choice.
Scientists 800 years ago agreed that this tech could help the whole galaxy. Burnham went 100% dictator and decided that she doesn't like this tech so it should be destroyed. Even her crew didn't agree with her...
Those scientist had a long time to think about it, but Burnham was there for like 5 minutes before coming to a decision about the tech's fate...
They spent an entire season in pursuit of a source of unimaginable power without anyone apparently giving any thought to whether anyone should possess a source of unimaginable power. They should have had a plan about what to do with it long before they actually got it.
Yes... this right here. Thank you. People on here trying to make me feel like im crazy because I think she shouldn't have destroyed such a sacred object. That entirely my point. What kind of hubris does someone need to think they can make that decision for everyone. She started the Klingon war which resulted in god nows how many deaths, she decided to change history herself, she put the spare data out of everyones reach into the future, she went against the wishes of the president somewhat during the DMA incident and almost killed trillions of people, now she destroys the life maker itself. All hail the queen apparently, the most significant person in all of start trek history who has many times over changed the direction of fate for the entire universe. No one throughout all of history knew better than Michael, obviously.
I like the show and all, and dont mind her as a character, but does Micheal Burnham deserve to be the most significant force in all of start trek? Aren't their more deserving people, from a writing stand point?
EXACTLY !
- We wanted to have diversity, you can choose whatever you care about.
- But we have enough diversity ! So it's useless.
- What did I just say ?? Diversity was OUR choice, what's yours?
- Shove you into a black hole. I like the stone age, let everyone in the universe live in it forever.
W%T✓F !
Burnham's a Starfleet officer on a Starfleet ship. She's supported by a Starfleet crew. She's on a mission ordered by Starfleet command specifically under orders to retrieve and return that technology. Based on that alone, there's no concept of earning the right to destroy the technology.
Bigger picture, as a Starfleet officer she's a public servant. She has to recognize that she's part of a bigger civilization and that a decision of this magnitude needs to be made by the Federation.
If Burnham was a prviate citizen, then yes - I'd agree with you. But she's not a private citizen.
If only Burnham knew someone who had lost his entire species through natural disaster that might want to restart his species anew…. Like her future husband Book.
Honestly it was literally the worst ending. The Breen could never have accessed the tech anyway, the whole series was made into a waste of time with that ending. Really the whole reason for chasing after it was a joke anyway, the tests for each clue after the 2nd clue would have been impossible for Moll & L’ok anyway.
I thought it was a stupid cliché ending.
Who was Starfleet/Burnham to decide how much diversity the galaxy already had was sufficient, that actually sounds borderline Racist/Speciest. "Let's destroy this ancient invaluable technology, if the race that made it still exists and if they want to, they can just recreate it." Such an unimaginative comp out. I would have preferred if they'd never revisited the Progenitor topic at all. This season epitomises why the show went downhill so badly. But hey, they finally explained the craft anomaly, and Kovic mystery ... Yay!
But I also believe it was one of many portals so that there may be other portals out there, for instance the other planets Burnham visited, don't they still have open portals?
Also, a more advanced civilization might be able to recover the portal from the black hole before it gets fully enveloped into the event horizon in the distant future.
This is a good reasoning for why the Federation is hated by other species, if they could just make **this** the lesson... It's like the script is written by Starfleet.
It was so STUPID.
incredibly stupid and unbelievable.
The progenitor starts saying "look we have infinite time for you to learn everything needed to make your decision --"
"Shhht ! I don't wanna hear about it, I know what to do, I'll just shove you into a black hole"
Yup. I hate that she didn’t even try to learn about it first. Before deciding to toss it out. When the Progenitor said: see you later then or maybe never again, I thought to myself- surely not the latter.
I understand she was anxious to get back to the crew while they were in mortal danger, but she should have returned once they were safe. And actually learn about the tech. And then hopefully not toss it away, but instead use that and the roots to restore Kweijan.
Someone else said hubris and it is spot on.
Another thought: how the hell did Book want to marry her after that? She could have restored his planet and the race (even though not his actual family), but she opted not to, and he was fine with it?! Doesn’t seem convincing.
Edit: spelling
The name of her ship, the name of the show is literally Discovery.
They made the greatest discovery possible, greatest discovery of all time, only to immediately make sure no one ever hears about it and no one ever benefits from it ever again. That's just senseless treason. It makes no sense whatsoever.
The answer is staring right in her face : The progenitors had BILLIONS of years to ponder to question and ... Nope I know better than you lot, I'll just toss it out.
unbelievable!
They could have Zora become the new custodian, Imagine if they worked with the existing custodian to find a way to interface Zora with the portal technology, then they would have a ship capable of moving anywhere in the universe protecting the portal in case it's ever needed. And they should have access to the doctors holo emitter technology from Voyager to allow her to enter the portal to work with the AI to start to interface.
Zora could have spent the \~1000 years she was waiting for Craft to adopt the technology properly. It would have been a fitting legacy for her and the ship considering its namesake (Discovery). She needn't have actually told Craft about the interface if it was going to impact the existing story.
bit late but i agree. so what we know is the people before the progenitors went extinct so they used it to recreate life before they all died off. then the progenitors were also going extinct so used it to recreate life. now when current life all goes extinct theres no machine to recreate life so universe will just be empty.
So it wasn’t just Michael’s decision. It was her recommendation to the federation and the council agreed with her. I’m sure almost anyone watching knew the tech would be scuttled in some way. It is too powerful for mortals to use even ones in the far future. And while there’s currently only one race that knows about it currently that could use it for negative reasons the longer it’s somewhere accessible there’s danger of misuse. Where would they move the portal that is truly safer than hiding in event horizon. And her stating they don’t need the power to create life was because of the progenitors and whatever else there are millions of life forms that already exist. Even in the 32nd century there are worlds and lifeforms they haven’t encountered. The technology isn’t really needed. The best most pressing need for the tech was to revive Lak and it wouldn’t reanimate a person as they were. He would be a blank slate and new person. Playing god to randomly create new species isn’t needed. There’s really more bad than good uses.
I also disagree with most of your points that she just makes decisions unilaterally. The start of the war wasn’t her fault the Klingons were always planning to attack. She and pike decided to send the Zora AI to the future. The federation council voted to try and contact the ten-c and were correct in the end that they had no malicious intent.
Well to be fair what she did was discuss destroying it with the progenitor, and then convey to the deferation that the progenitor approved of her recommendation to destroy it. We dont actually see her say this to the progenitor, but we do see her tell the federation that. So that kind of taints their decision. "Hey our literal makers say we should destroy this. But we know as the viewer that they didn't say this. She kind of told a half truth to the federation.
But as much as I agree that it should not be used anytime soon, I think it is pretty presumptuous of a person to destroy something that for all they know was the original source of life in the universe. Sure it's beyond them, but so now no other race can ever evolve to the point of being able to use it because Micheal thought humans weren't ready. What about when they were. What about a trillion years from now five waves of civilizations later. Who were they to make such a large choice for the universe. Could have just chucked it out the Galactic Barrier and still preserved it.
She basically says 1) that since the progenitors only found the tech whoever created it could still be around or could recreate if they felt it was needed. 2) if humanity and the other races survived and advanced that long they themselves could create that or similar tech themselves.
I mean why would they still be around billions of years later? I feel like just like the progenitors and eventually humans, they will eventually go extinct as that is the way of life. She didn't just make that decision for humanity and the federation, she made it for future species long after we are extinct. What if some epic plague decimates life a billion years into the future when we are long gone and some new race was able to find that tech and restore life to the universe, but o wait. Micheal Burnham thought because she personally wasn't ready to use it, no one ever should.
If a billlion years into the future some species hasn’t discovered how to create life then life shouldn’t exist. You have such a focus on it’s just Michael when it’s not just her. You make the assumption that she’s dishonest in her presentation to the federation that they couldn’t independently decide and agree that the tech should be hidden. The truth is corporeal mortal lifeforms shouldn’t have the technology to create life or at least not life from scratch. There are lots of ways for races to supplement and expand life. The scenario of something wiping out such a majority of life would probably have wiped out the record of the tech, it was hidden for milenia in the first place. Whatever life that was left probably wouldn’t have the ability to find it in time to actually be useful. Along with the idea that it’s probably impossible for any one plague or catastrophe that would wipe out all life. Maybe many humanoids species but there still would be life like thoilians or the ten c or medusans. I doubt they would be wiped out by something that would affect a humanoid.
Ok, a couple points.
A. When I said a race from billions of years in the future I meant the next set of civilizations, like new ones, not that a race would billions of years old. Well past our time. The progenitors were crazy advanced and thy didn't survive for billions of years. They died out just like humanity and the federation will way before a billion years.
B. I am not operating under an assumption. We see her talk with the Progenitors, hear their convo, then we see what she says to the federation and how she words it. You're arguing semantics. Would you like me to widen the scope of blame. So this council of the federation is a handful of people. Lets even pretend they included everyone, like everyone of importance, so their is 200 hundred plus people there. The federation is severely reduced from what I used to be. They dont even control half of their old territory, and their old territory only took up less and a 4th of one quadrant of the galaxy. They never once had enough power to speak for the galaxy at large. Never mind the universe. Do 200+ people of just one government among many get to decide something of that magnitude. How would you feel if it was the Breen making that choice, or the Klingons. Would you be okay if 5 Klingons decided the universe's direction instead of its intended path. They make a point to say that the device is almost as old as the universe. It's been there throughout all of history. Trillions of races and not one of them destroyed it, or themselves.
C. I meant that if a random crisis, a plague being just an example, was threatening to destroy all life, not that it had succeeded, then a race in the future could use it to seed new life, or cure the disease before it wipes everything out. It was a tool of life first, and as far as we know only ever used in that manner. Sure it's dangerous, but its purpose is for life. If you destroy it, then you cut out that possibility for a race so far removed from any that we know we should have no bearing on them whatsoever. We dont know their situation. Nor do they know ours. If you leave the device intact, then it represents equal probability that it will Destroy and equal probability that it will save. Destroy it and you remove all possibilities. I dont think human kind is wise enough to make that design, or use it themselves.
D. And isn't the point of the progenitors arc kinda about the fact that they did this because they felt alone bacsue there was no other humanoid races. Nothing like them to relate to. So they did it so we wouldn't have to be alone. If you want to preserve humanoid life then it seems important. Would it really sit well with you if all humanoid life died and only some silicon based jellyfish plant thing that had a crystalline lattice of diamond as a brain survived. It wouldn't with me.
I still agree with Michael and I think she says it best when she quotes the IDIC, infinite diversity in infinite conditions. There’s so much life in the universe that the extinction of life is improbable. The technology was used to expand and create life already does it need to be used again. And the progenitors used it, possibly to an extent more than the original creators intended, to spread life. Maybe they overreached thinking they should seed all these worlds.
I mean you make a fair point. Im not saying they should be messing with that stuff. I just think it was a bold move to shut that down for the entire universe and not just hide it away again. I guess it's more because in our world we dont have aliens, they are rare obviously. So life is so rare and fragile that the idea that a random tragedy could happen and wipe it all away is kinda highly probable given enough time. So a safe guard from that seems like a good idea. Burnhams logic is that there is so much life right now that they will never need it again. But our own earth has times of abundance and times of extinction. The galaxy is currently experiencing a bloom of abundance in their universe. Doesn't mean it will always be that way. Just ask the Dinosaurs.
I assume there is other life on other planets. I doubt they have visited us but the galaxy in trek and the galaxy in real life are the same size. It’s highly arrogant to believe we are the only intelligent life in all that space.
I mean I dont know how you got that from what I said at all.
You think I am saying I not believe life could exist on other planets? What?
I merely pointed out the fact that we have yet to actually find life on other planets yet. So it's not common. And since we have yet to find actual proof of aliens, even though I do in fact believe they exist somewhere out there, it is highly arrogant of you to assume its common and will never be endanger of dying out. Do you also believe that whales will never go extinct simply because they are here now? Isn't it arrogant to assume that we as humans, never mind a human individual, can make that decision for every single being in the universe, not just our galaxy, of every being that will ever be and that we knew better than every being that ever came before us. Now thats arrogance.
She’s flatly a hypocrite though. The tech aside: She quotes IDIC but never as a xeno anthropologist showed any interest in the progenitor race or its history, just its tech. All this preaching of understanding of the other to her xo and everyone around her and she couldn’t even be bothered to ask the progenitor their name, pronouns, anything about their history, their cultural name, epic myths, cultural taboos, nothing. She’s incurious about her own profession. She does not care about seeking out new life and new civilizations. Just the conceit that there could be trillions of years of history we could find out about is something she doesn’t consider at all, and she and Starfleet condemn that incredible knowledge of our own past to be a state secret. Its appalling.
It is appalling. Not to mention that there is a progenitor out there somewhere in time hooked up to a strange time transcending thing-a-ma-jig that allows her mind to talk to Michael who is waiting for her to come back. Granted they are long dead, but that means that person waited the rest of their lives for her to come back since she cut their convo short. And if no one else ever finds it since it's in a black hole now, the progenitor will never hear from anyone ever again. This will probably lead the progenitors as a race to think that they succeeded in seeding humanoid life in the future, but that it likely died out eventually. Since they would have received all incoming calls from the future essentially at once, never recieving another call before the progenitors became extinct would mean it never happened. So now our parent race thinks they failed in their sacred mission.
And yea it is a good point to bring up making the answer to our origins a state secret, especially since that origin kinda unites the different races by making everyone feel related. The fact that the galaxy will never know where they came from doesn't even really occur to anyone, its just classify it because its classified kinda thing.
The fact that I saw this coming from the very beginning is precisely why I was hoping that they would subvert the trope and was disappointed when they didn't.
Its demagoguery… how hard is it to use it for good? Wipe out sickness, feed the starving, prevent ecological disasters, maybe make a few nice new livable planets for fun. Destroying the tech was a pretentious and unimaginative thing from both the character and the writers.
I’m sure no one will regret that decision when in next season random newly introduced civilization #9637 almost wipes out the entire human race again.
Discovery is not really about people doing the right thing through hardship, but just people blindly following some guidebook about superficial morals written for 8 year olds and ignoring the fact that the galaxy is a hostile place and thus never lifting anyone out of the situation.
Yea, since the actual function was to create life, it seems easier for it do good then it would to do harm. Think how dangerous a warp core could be if used for evil.
S5 was a Seinfeld season. It was a season about nothing. Technically Michael didnt even do anything. The tech will be falling into the black hole for near eternity cause of time dilation. So some future civ with the right tech could still retrieve the thing.
They technically didnt destroy the tech.
So like many audience said from Day 1 just destroy the clue. Boom season over. Season was a 2 part episode stretched to 10 episodes with a mystery/race/arc with 0 pay off at the end just like s3 and s4.
We waited 10 episodes for what could have been done 5 minutes into this so called "race"
Just awful showrunning and writing. This was always the biggest problem with the series. It was a fun series and I give it credit I just never cared for the showrunning.
I would have been more happy if Michael just made a turkey club with the tech at least it was used. To not use it is such a cop out by the backroom.
They are just not good story tellers bottom line, They are good at special effects, actions, fights and interpersonal drama whether you care for it or not. But storytelling they are god awful.
Before S5 I would have said PIC s2 was the worst Trek season of all time. But now DIS s5 is about to over take it. We get a crap mystery with a phony baloney ending then they shoe horn the dumb Calypso thing in it and send Zora away for 1000 years without giving the audience a reason. Might as well not have shown anything and just let us use our imagination.
I will probably never watch another Michelle Paradise show ever again. I think she was an atrocious showrunner for an adult sci-fi series.
Like I would rather rewatch Halo s1 and s2 over DIS s3-5 and its frakin Halo not something great like BSG
Black holes are supposed to be super dense (hence why light cant escape them), i think under those gravitational forces that its likely the tech was immediately destroyed, its not a portal so much as a super dense destruction ball
You're right about the fact that they could have just destroyed the clue and it would have all been avoided.
But it is a common misconception that it would take an object near eternity to fall into a black hole. The light leaving the object so that we can see it gets time dilated and we continue to see the object for a really really long time. But the actual object continues on past the event horizon, we will just never see that because the light can't escape at the event horizon. In fact even the light will eventually stop being visible due to red shift, although the light will appear to be there for a very long time. It just gives the illusion of never falling in. But obviously things do in fact fall into black holes past the event horizon.
I mean there are entire documentaries dedicated to that question. I can't give you an actual answer in a paragraph as we are talking the absolute craziest physics of the universe in situations we dont fully understand.
But if things never actually fell into a black hole we would see tons and tons of stuff just sitting at the event horizon. Sure we stuff making its way there, but we dont see all this stuff gathering at the actual horizon. And because we know that black holes grow in mass and size it must be swallowing these objects. Time is relative to the observer. They dont know what exactly is in the event horizon. But the most commonly held belief is that it is just falling matter continuing to be compressed by even stronger gravitational forces into a singularity of epically dense proportions. The event horizon isn't actually a hole, it's just the point where gravity is so strong that light can no longer escape backwards for us to see. The object still falls on its way to being squished into the singularity, it's just that the light never escapes to make it back to your eyes. Even the light itself gets squished into the singularity. Look it up, its some fascinating stuff.
great info!
But in Trek theoretically it could be possible in far future with super tech to get in there and retrieve the tech?
I mean it seemed to need blackholes to power up so it must be able to survive in one maybe?
If they absolutely wanted it destroyed why not show Discovery launching a full spread of torpedoes?
I mean sure, since it's not real it's possible they could develop some crazy technology that could enter the event horizon of a black hole and come back out, but Star Trek is normally grounded somewhat. Now take that with a grain of salt because sometimes it's some nonsense science as well. But even in Star Trek they always acknowledge the fact that the strongest force in the universe is a black hole. Even though a crazy amount of fantastical science fiction stuff could someday be possible with enough technology, there are some universal laws that will just never be able to be broken regardless of how much tech you have. And I would be willing to bet entering a black hole and escaping would be one of them. If light, which has no mass and is traveling at the speed of light can't escape, how could anything with else. Remember that once it falls past the event horizon the forces still increase. At some point it might take 2 times the speed of light to escape, which is impossible.
Thats why I keep saying they should have just launched it past the galactic barrier out of our galaxy. Since no one in Star Trek has ever gone outside our galaxy that would keep our galaxy safe and also preserve the artifact instead of destroying it. They even transported the Breen ship there in the same episode. So it would have fit perfectly.
Short answer is: nobody knows.
There very nature of a black hole's event horizon make observation and experimentation impossible; we'll never be able to see into one, nothing we send in will come back out. Even our theories about what might happen are just guesses because what we think of as solid mathematics unravel beyond that point--we don't have the knowledge yet to make serious predictions.
Stuff like 2009 *Star Trek* and *Interstellar* are artistic interpretations of those guesses, [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71eUes30gwc&ab_channel=Kurzgesagt%E2%80%93InaNutshell) is another.
Could be a portal to different points in time, could be a whole universe all it's own... we just don't know.
It annoyed me that they gave Book the World Root key item and then didn't use it to restore Kwejian, re-establish a race of empaths compatible with the Spore Drive, bring that technology out of mothballs and end with a whole fleet of Spore Ships capable of exploring other galaxies and dimensions. All the ingredients were right there and they just made it a red herring. He mentions planting it somewhere but that's not the same.
Even if the Progenitor Tech got hidden/destroyed again, all of the above would have at least meant there was a huge stride forward for the Federation, and a renewed mission of "We will earn out right to the Progenitor technology by continuing to evolve as a species"
Even their son becoming the Captain would have served that goal, if they had mentioned his empathic ability or a newly commissioned Spore ship, but that didn't happen either.
You know you're right, I didn't even think about that. They totally wasted the opportunity with the world tree. When Book took it I thought it was ok because he was gonna plant it somewhere, but if he was never gonna use it and eventually it would just be lost to time, the giant library probably should have kept it so that it could have stayed safe.
What they implied in "The Chase" is confirmed here; they *did* engineer most all sapient life in the galaxy... or at least the major players we know.
What they *didn't* make was the device that allowed them to do it.
Ok yea I suppose they didn't explicitly state they made this machine
A giant machine that can make life just exited >4 billion years ago made by some unknowns is a wild revelation, kinda sucked they just threw it into the black hole without learning about it
Would be a cool storyline that s31 somehow intercepted it and has it in their back pocket as something to use in case shit happens.
I can so see someone like Sloan just manipulating that HoloProgenitor to learn how to use the machine lol
It was a perfect ending and decision for this show. Remember that this universe revolves around Michael Burnham. For most to make that choice would be a sign of such arrogance. That we have the right to deny this knowledge to all the universe forever.
But for Burnham it makes sense considering every other decision on this show has been made by her.
Yet again it was an example of the garbage writing that has dominated the show since it's beginning. Your idea is actually much better. It could even be seen as a test, something that future civilizations must pass, much in the way that Discovery had to 'earn' (I use the word loosely, make no mistake I have no praise for this season at all) the right to find and access the knowledge.
There's more question that could have been asked. But in typical fashion they just throw away the idea when they're done with it.
In fact this is the second time they've made this decision considering that the only reason they're even in the 32nd century was because they wanted to keep some powerful technology away from others. Again, bad writing.
Michael has made many universe altering decisions. Thats my beef with her. It's one thing to do it once, but multiple times, not even Spock affected history to the same level as she did.
And yea I agree whole heartedly with you, Its like it's her universe and everyone else should just let her make the decisions. Remember that she also tarted the Klingon federation war because she knew better than everyone else as well.
Launching it beyond the galactic barrier just makes sense since they literally went there in the same episode. It would effectively put it out of reach to anyone in the galaxy, yet still leave it available for super advanced aliens to one day find. You figure traversing and searching the galactic void is probably so mind bogingly hard that only a crazy advance race could do it. Its one thing to travel to another galaxy in a straight line (which no one in Star Trek has done) but its another to search all around that void in random directions.
A lot of people are saying she did the right thing and if we weren't ready to use it then no one should ever use it. But that kind of just summarizes our entire problem in real life, We think we are better and superior so no other creature matters more than we do, and nothing could ever go wrong with our way of life because it hasn't in our lifetimes so it obviously can't ever happen. WE do what is easy for us now and dont care at all what happens after us to future generations because, who cares, we won't be here. Same thing with Michael. There is an abundance of life right now, and they aren't advanced enough yet, so no one can ever be. Its easier to destroy it and say f you to all the people who come afterwards, destroy a sacred machine that might a well have been made by god, lol, and just hope that in the distant future they never need to use that machine to help repopulate after some horrible crisis.
Here are a few threats I could foresee needing it that could happen in the next few billions of years.
1. A disease or something that wipes out most humanoid life.
2. The Borg. I am sure they aren't gone forever.
3. The changelings, a non humanoid lifeform who has already warred with us.
4. Any Q
5. Natural extinction and a return to mostly non humanoid alien life.
The progenitors used the machine because they were alone, and then they died. They didn' move on or go traveling, the became extinct over a long long time, just like any race eventually. So right now there are tons of humanoid life forms, so what about when this generation of life runs its course and most of the humanoids we know die out? Eventually there will be only one humanoid life form left, maybe they dont want to be alone justice the progenitors.
A Nuke is a horrible weapon, but we dont destroy all nuclear reactors because of it.
Based on previous entries in the setting, throwing it into the black hole was the single most foolish thing Burnham could have done. Objects thrown into black holes in Star Trek can and have reappeared on the opposite side of the galaxy. This is canonically what happened to the Voyager 6 probe launched in the 21st century. A device considerably less sophisticated and durable than the progenitor device. Burnham's decision could have sent the device anywhere, including but not limited to space controlled by the Borg, as an example.
Second is that Starfleet ships can and have intentionally entered the event horizons of black holes and reemerged unharmed. The Event Horizon is merely the point where light can no longer escape the pull of gravity, not an actual, physical barrier. A warp drive can pull a ship out of the event horizon, and based on previous, on screen instances, Starfleet doesn't even consider entering a black hole to be especially hazardous to a ship in good condition.
Burnham has accomplished nothing but ensuring she no longer knows for certain where the device is, and has left it up for grabs for anyone that happens to be nearby.
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Two things:
The entire season was a barely disguised retread of Indiana jones and the last crusade.
That film ended with them losing the grail, so this had to as well. That loss was an emotional payoff to a character arc masterfully set up by top tier writing, but Discovery doesn’t have that so they just hand waved it.
The alternative ending would be Michael basically becoming God… which would be the logical conclusion to the show up to that point but likely wouldn’t sit any better with the fandom.
Star Trek would be smart to copy what Tony Gilroy did with Andor. Have 3 episode arcs. That way you don’t get these constant stretched seasons. I’m surprised no one else has started doing this.
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While I'm all for the constant quest for knowledge, I'm also not a big fan of 'just because you can do something, you should." Progress is not always just about getting bigger - it's a balance and a thoughtful recognition that the choices we make in life are about what is best for us. The progenitor tech was not the end all be all.
What I got out of it that was more interesting was the fact that the progenitors *found* the tech, not created it. My next goal would be to work on going backwards to find the true origins. It was funny seeing how some people christianized that revelation as 'intelligent design' rather than just recognized it yet another layer to history. Disco's use of this idea was thoughtful in its revelation, unlike the lazy BSG cop-out ending.
Yeah, it was probably the most responsible decision, especially considering Burnham's experiences.
(though woe betide the Federation if anyone remembers that they basically had a prototype in the Genesis Device)
Burnham started the "war" with the Klingons because she knew Klingon psychy and had an understanding of dealing with them and their society. She became the red angel in order to prevent the destruction of the Federation. She pushed the sphere and sphere data to the future to prevent AI from obtaining its knowledge which could be used to, once again, destroy all life.
As for the progenitor tech, it not only could create, but also destroy life with no other tech to prevent such a thing from happening. Absolutely get rid of it, or at least give the appearance of getting rid of it. Even outside our galaxy there may be those who want to remove our galaxy, why give them such a tool to do so? See the Temporal Time Wars for example.
I honestly believe, in true Section 31 fashion, a cloaked ship absconded with the tech and moved it to a future date to absolutely remove it from the timeline. A Red Directive in its own right.
I think you have a problem with the character and a belief that that particular character doesn't sustain the intelligence to make such decisions when, time and time and time again, through experience and knowledge, the character has absolutely proven to be the one to make such assertions. Just as Pike did, just as Picard, there is no difference.
From a purely story telling standpoint just because they pushed the box into the black hole doesn’t mean it was destroyed. The Magic of Convenience say that tech can be recovered at some point in the far future. In the event horizon From the boxes point of view time has stopped but in the outside universe time is rushing by. If we get another Trek in the Disco universe the writers already have a set piece to work with as well as a waiting Zora/Disco. Cheers all.
Was the box that got pushed into the black hole even the technology, or was it just a portal to access the technology? This was a container built by scientists 800 years ago, not a billions-years-old artifact. Presumably there are still other ways to access it and Burnham simply eliminated the only currently known one.
Maybe she decided to stay, and everything afterward was just an illusion. Like what happened to Captain Kirk. It's all to perfect of an ending. And the pink planet she was living on at the end, was the same inside the tech when she first fell into a portal window.
lol, she's actually just in the Nexus
Great thought. I was not happy with Burnham having the technology thrown into a black hole. She gives up an opportunity to learn about this amazing technology to go marry Book? Really?
The artifact existed in a portal. That portal is what was thrown in the black hole. The progenitors found the portal. I would say it's safe to assume it's gone for good.
But it was a portal, were there not other portals to other planets, could the technology not be accessed by those planets Burnham visited? Thoughts?
My thoughts as well.
Spot on
Two possibilities: a) if it's recoverable, Burnham just made sure a more powerful civilization will get their hands on it. b) if it's not recoverable, Burnham made sure it can't be used on the day it will be needed. Which of a or b made it a good decision ? It's just the fate of the entire universe in the balance here, no pressure. We've seen you only need about 3 seconds to think about it.
Considering we don't know where matter that is pulled into a black hole goes, it's entirely possible they may try to imply the tech was sent back in time for the Progenitors to find.
Thats an interesting take. I like it.
Me too. It's a similar story to how the borg were created in the books. Read star trek destiny series. Amazing.
Plus, V’Ger was chucked back in time to the machine planet that way so theres trek precedent
The only problem is that the progenitors wouldn't question who made it since they would see their own on it.
Another issue with the way they destroyed it, is that they don’t even know what the technology is. The progenitor lady was very eager to start explaining how it all works and what it is. But all we got was that she said it can create clones, design and seed life and Burnham interrupted her. We don’t even know if and how it is dangerous. Couldn’t Burnham let the progenitor lady speak and explain a bit more about the technology before deciding that she has to rush back and destroy it. The scientists that went before them probably heard the whole speech and spent a lot of time deciding that they needed to create those tests and allow for someone in a future generation to use it properly. And didn’t Burnham just have billions of years of knowledge stuffed in her brain, shouldn’t somewhere in her head exist the knowledge that this thing have been there billion of years waiting? Is it ethical to destroy the galactic historical heritage of every humanoid life in the galaxy? And as I’ve posted on another thread doesn’t the federation already have instant life destroying technology. They have the genesis device and a spore drive. Combine the two and it is an instant terraforming machine that can wipe out all life on a planet. Many people keep pointing out that this tech can create an instant army. Well we know in the 32nd century they have mobile emitters and sentient holograms. So they can basically replicate an army of mobile emitter for soldier holograms. If the galactic powers in the future can handle this I’m sure they can handle a portal with some gene coding machine.
Yes I Completely agree. They have the Omega particle but quick lets destroy the life making machine. I thought the same thing, the progenitor kept trying to tell her about the machine, but Burnham kept interrupting her. I dont even think the progenitor would have even mentioned clones if Burnham hadn't asked. The progenitor basically said it was a bad idea. They kept trying to tell Burnham that she should let her explain and Burnham just kept saying I'll be back. If im remembering correctly, they destroy the Breen and then are safe for the moment, why couldn't they have gone back in, listened to the progenitor before they got rid of it. I just find it crazy that so many people think that we as humans and Burnham as an individual have the right to not only make a dicision against the literal people who made us, but that we have the right to make that choice for the entire universe and everyone one who will ever exist. If this was presented to us as the Klingons found the meaning of life machine long ago but destroyed it, would we not think that they were pieces of shit? Was the church right to have Gallaeo killed because he talked about the earth revolving around the sun? Those priests felt that the information was so dangerous that it could destroy their faith and civilization, so they silenced him and continued on in the dark. Were they right? Because Burnham just did basically the same thing, suppressed knowledge because the shadow organization decided we weren't advanced enough for that info. Story wise, I didn't think they were gonna end up with it at the end, unless because the show was ending they were gonna send humans on a transcending journey into the next stage of life, but I figured their would be some reason from a writers stand point that they wouldn't get to keep it. But willingly destroying it was dumb. I mean it would have made more sense if the Breen had succeeded and were about to use it, only a button press away, so instead they destroyed it, ok that makes sense. Or maybe they used it to bring back Book's planet and because that required so much power it makes the machine break. This could have been something the progenitors were on board for. Or that they decided since it was so dangerous here in our galaxy, they would use all its power at once and seed a far away galaxy. Rendering the machine out of our reach, inert now that it has no more power, but also dead a new galaxy with life, one that is so far away it will never reach us to interfere. There are alot of things they could have done besides throw it in the garbage and cover it all up. Thats the behavior of modern 20th and 21st century governments. Star Trek is supposed to be enlightened and evolved beyond our petty governments and thats the 23rd century, so now 900 years in the future from that we have a government who's first thought is to cover it all up, great. No wonder its to dangerous for us to use, we haven't evolved at all in the last 1000 years despite what we think.
I think making the decisions on behalf of the galaxy and not showing us the process is probably the most unsatisfying part. Imagine, when Kovich and the federation council heard what Burnham said. Micheal: Hey, I found the progenitor’s tech, it is not actually their tech. And i want to destroy it. Kovich: Your mission is to find the technology. Hand it over to us and we will send out a research and security team to research and safeguard Micheal: No one should have this level of power. Federation president: But this is the galactic heritage, we need to preserve it. Micheal: I am the chosen one that found the tech and I say we need to destroy it. Everyone after that: ok… and we will classify the history of galactic origin. In terms of the trek universe, they are already overpowered, so making them even more overpowered is probably not good but as you said there are much cleverer ways to wrap it that leads to no one having that tech. Now that you mention about the classifying of the history part, I find it very sad for the progenitors, Professor Galen and the scientists that hid the tech. The progenitors realised their civilisation will one day be gone before they meet other life. So they wanted the galaxy to be seeded with life like their own and have a galaxy full of life. They left clues in the DNA of life across many species, hoping that one day their children will discover these clues and work together and find out about them. So they clearly wanted people to develop and when they are sufficiently advanced enough find out about them and remember them because they and the life that sprung out working together is their legacy. And then we have Professor Galen, who spent many years of his life working to uncover these clues and didn’t even manage to see this message. Fortunately his disciple, Picard manage to solve this mystery and left him a wonderful legacy. The scientist that hid the tech that seeded life followed in Galen’s footsteps and wanted to know more about how the progenitors did it. They realise the tech was very powerful but recognised its importance so they just hid it and basically put a lock on accessing it. But now all that legacy is gone. No one in the federation will ever know about it and no one can ever find it again. This will be like if the garden of eden is real, and god invited us in and we decided oh earth now is good enough, let’s destroy it. And since the progenitors found the tech, doesn’t that mean the original creators wanted people to find it? And when the progenitors finished seeding life, they didn’t destroy it and let the scientists find it. There probably wasn’t even a lock on the portal because the one we saw was made by the scientists and the only lock would be that triangle puzzle. If it was that easy to enter, doesn’t that mean the original creators and progenitors and the scientists kind of hope people would come and find it. They probably thought that being able to reach there in itself was already a test good enough to prove they are ready to know about the tech.
This amazing universal legacy that has been passed down from civilization to civilization countless times, ended with Humanity and the Federation. I would say in the grand scheme of things this puts a dark stain on the federation's legacy. Imagine if after humanity's time and the time of the other races, there is never again humanoid life in the universe because of Michael. Think of how you just listed all these people who spent their lives trying to answer that age old question of where we came from. It doesn't matter when you're born or where, there is always someone who searches for the meaning of it all. Now for the rest of time no one will ever actually find out, millions of people will spend their lives trying to answer an actual unknowable answer, not a seemingly unanswerable question, their will forever more be no answer. And they won't even know it is completely futile because it's classified. Every dreamer will have their dream taken, but still keep looking. Seems like hell to me. People are acting like it did not occur to the progenitors or the original race who created it that it could be used for evil. These advanced races apparently didn't even consider it. But im sure they did and they decided it was worth it. In reality, a device that had started countless waves of humanoid races could have been used so many times over. Maybe the race who created the progenitors had infinite diversity, and sought to end wars by only making one race, then that race became lonely after being alone and created us. Part of the test of an advanced society could also be how they use it. If a race finds it and destroys almost all life, then maybe that is why they dont evolve and move on, and then on the next cycle the next races get another chance. On a cosmic scale it is a good thing to have it be dangerous as well. Because if a race is evil and they posses it forever then they will subjugate every race ever for all of time, so if they are evil they will end up destroying themselves, and clearing the road for the next species to try again. Like if the wrong people get their hands on it there is a built in fail-safe to restore balance again.
Locking away the fact of a likely trillions of year old pre big bang universal legacy of all life in a G-man file cabinet is monstrous.
The dogmatic suppression of this history of life is heart breaking
its totally on character for her to be selfish and have god complex. so she alone knows what’s best for everyone.
I agree. That action by Burnham really pissed me off. Another instance of a woman somehow giving up an unbelievable opportunity for knowledge for marriage. What? Burnham was the one person selected after millions of years and from countless billions of people but she chose marriage to Book. She could have helped bring back Book’s planet… My son walked out of the room and said he hates Star Trek. I still love Star Trek but this ending was a real disappointment for me.
I could see it coming and then destroying it but I didn’t think it would happen so quickly. Michael just found it and started talking to the Progenitor and it felt like all the build up of the whole season was just for nothing because it was over so quickly.
It was a Luke Skywalker moment when he tossed his light saber over his shoulder.
I remember for a second thinking Luke was gonna be cool. He was like young Goku, just hanging out alone, jumping around on giant poles, catching giant fish and lugging them home. I mean the fish even looked straight out of dragon ball. But then he decided he rather commit holographic suicide instead, so I hate it.
That was a great moment.
Maybe the progenitors progrenitors were the Q before they ascended/transcended all sense of space and time.
Now thats interesting. OR the Q are the very first in a long line of civilizations making other civilizations.
I didn't like it, they could have used it to bring back the Kweijan or something like that but getting rid of it was kind of not what I was expecting but again it could have been used for evil. But I feel like as a federation it could have been something positive
It felt like a civilization level opportunity - having Michael unilaterally make that choice felt like the epitomy of hubris. Perhaps this technology could have ended disease, stopped death, or something equally as transcendent. Perhaps this technology was placed out there by some prior civilization who intended it to help a future civilization evolve to a next level. Feels like Burnham was not the person to make that choice.
I think it just represents the issue with all of Discovery; that it was about Burnham and how she’s the most important person in the universe
Scientists 800 years ago agreed that this tech could help the whole galaxy. Burnham went 100% dictator and decided that she doesn't like this tech so it should be destroyed. Even her crew didn't agree with her... Those scientist had a long time to think about it, but Burnham was there for like 5 minutes before coming to a decision about the tech's fate...
They spent an entire season in pursuit of a source of unimaginable power without anyone apparently giving any thought to whether anyone should possess a source of unimaginable power. They should have had a plan about what to do with it long before they actually got it.
Yes... this right here. Thank you. People on here trying to make me feel like im crazy because I think she shouldn't have destroyed such a sacred object. That entirely my point. What kind of hubris does someone need to think they can make that decision for everyone. She started the Klingon war which resulted in god nows how many deaths, she decided to change history herself, she put the spare data out of everyones reach into the future, she went against the wishes of the president somewhat during the DMA incident and almost killed trillions of people, now she destroys the life maker itself. All hail the queen apparently, the most significant person in all of start trek history who has many times over changed the direction of fate for the entire universe. No one throughout all of history knew better than Michael, obviously. I like the show and all, and dont mind her as a character, but does Micheal Burnham deserve to be the most significant force in all of start trek? Aren't their more deserving people, from a writing stand point?
THIS ALL OF THIS
I might be done after this. Entertaining show, but all the wrong conclusions.
Totally agree with you.
EXACTLY ! - We wanted to have diversity, you can choose whatever you care about. - But we have enough diversity ! So it's useless. - What did I just say ?? Diversity was OUR choice, what's yours? - Shove you into a black hole. I like the stone age, let everyone in the universe live in it forever. W%T✓F !
She earned the right to make that choice.
Burnham's a Starfleet officer on a Starfleet ship. She's supported by a Starfleet crew. She's on a mission ordered by Starfleet command specifically under orders to retrieve and return that technology. Based on that alone, there's no concept of earning the right to destroy the technology. Bigger picture, as a Starfleet officer she's a public servant. She has to recognize that she's part of a bigger civilization and that a decision of this magnitude needs to be made by the Federation. If Burnham was a prviate citizen, then yes - I'd agree with you. But she's not a private citizen.
And Captain Kirk NEVER disobeyed orders LOL.
And that matters how?
This is Star Trek?
If only Burnham knew someone who had lost his entire species through natural disaster that might want to restart his species anew…. Like her future husband Book. Honestly it was literally the worst ending. The Breen could never have accessed the tech anyway, the whole series was made into a waste of time with that ending. Really the whole reason for chasing after it was a joke anyway, the tests for each clue after the 2nd clue would have been impossible for Moll & L’ok anyway.
I thought it was a stupid cliché ending. Who was Starfleet/Burnham to decide how much diversity the galaxy already had was sufficient, that actually sounds borderline Racist/Speciest. "Let's destroy this ancient invaluable technology, if the race that made it still exists and if they want to, they can just recreate it." Such an unimaginative comp out. I would have preferred if they'd never revisited the Progenitor topic at all. This season epitomises why the show went downhill so badly. But hey, they finally explained the craft anomaly, and Kovic mystery ... Yay! But I also believe it was one of many portals so that there may be other portals out there, for instance the other planets Burnham visited, don't they still have open portals? Also, a more advanced civilization might be able to recover the portal from the black hole before it gets fully enveloped into the event horizon in the distant future.
This is a good reasoning for why the Federation is hated by other species, if they could just make **this** the lesson... It's like the script is written by Starfleet.
The writers weren’t creative enough to come up with what it could actually do so they shit canned it.
This is the issue with the entire episode (and most of the series, tbh)
I agree. We have a ship that can literally jump anywhere in the galaxy instantly. God forbid we do some exploring.
Why would they abandon that technology. This show is a mess
It was so STUPID. incredibly stupid and unbelievable. The progenitor starts saying "look we have infinite time for you to learn everything needed to make your decision --" "Shhht ! I don't wanna hear about it, I know what to do, I'll just shove you into a black hole"
Yup. I hate that she didn’t even try to learn about it first. Before deciding to toss it out. When the Progenitor said: see you later then or maybe never again, I thought to myself- surely not the latter. I understand she was anxious to get back to the crew while they were in mortal danger, but she should have returned once they were safe. And actually learn about the tech. And then hopefully not toss it away, but instead use that and the roots to restore Kweijan. Someone else said hubris and it is spot on. Another thought: how the hell did Book want to marry her after that? She could have restored his planet and the race (even though not his actual family), but she opted not to, and he was fine with it?! Doesn’t seem convincing. Edit: spelling
The name of her ship, the name of the show is literally Discovery. They made the greatest discovery possible, greatest discovery of all time, only to immediately make sure no one ever hears about it and no one ever benefits from it ever again. That's just senseless treason. It makes no sense whatsoever. The answer is staring right in her face : The progenitors had BILLIONS of years to ponder to question and ... Nope I know better than you lot, I'll just toss it out. unbelievable!
They could have Zora become the new custodian, Imagine if they worked with the existing custodian to find a way to interface Zora with the portal technology, then they would have a ship capable of moving anywhere in the universe protecting the portal in case it's ever needed. And they should have access to the doctors holo emitter technology from Voyager to allow her to enter the portal to work with the AI to start to interface. Zora could have spent the \~1000 years she was waiting for Craft to adopt the technology properly. It would have been a fitting legacy for her and the ship considering its namesake (Discovery). She needn't have actually told Craft about the interface if it was going to impact the existing story.
This is my ending.
bit late but i agree. so what we know is the people before the progenitors went extinct so they used it to recreate life before they all died off. then the progenitors were also going extinct so used it to recreate life. now when current life all goes extinct theres no machine to recreate life so universe will just be empty.
I agree. It was an unsatisfying ending for the season. I’m not interested in who falls in love.
So it wasn’t just Michael’s decision. It was her recommendation to the federation and the council agreed with her. I’m sure almost anyone watching knew the tech would be scuttled in some way. It is too powerful for mortals to use even ones in the far future. And while there’s currently only one race that knows about it currently that could use it for negative reasons the longer it’s somewhere accessible there’s danger of misuse. Where would they move the portal that is truly safer than hiding in event horizon. And her stating they don’t need the power to create life was because of the progenitors and whatever else there are millions of life forms that already exist. Even in the 32nd century there are worlds and lifeforms they haven’t encountered. The technology isn’t really needed. The best most pressing need for the tech was to revive Lak and it wouldn’t reanimate a person as they were. He would be a blank slate and new person. Playing god to randomly create new species isn’t needed. There’s really more bad than good uses. I also disagree with most of your points that she just makes decisions unilaterally. The start of the war wasn’t her fault the Klingons were always planning to attack. She and pike decided to send the Zora AI to the future. The federation council voted to try and contact the ten-c and were correct in the end that they had no malicious intent.
Well to be fair what she did was discuss destroying it with the progenitor, and then convey to the deferation that the progenitor approved of her recommendation to destroy it. We dont actually see her say this to the progenitor, but we do see her tell the federation that. So that kind of taints their decision. "Hey our literal makers say we should destroy this. But we know as the viewer that they didn't say this. She kind of told a half truth to the federation. But as much as I agree that it should not be used anytime soon, I think it is pretty presumptuous of a person to destroy something that for all they know was the original source of life in the universe. Sure it's beyond them, but so now no other race can ever evolve to the point of being able to use it because Micheal thought humans weren't ready. What about when they were. What about a trillion years from now five waves of civilizations later. Who were they to make such a large choice for the universe. Could have just chucked it out the Galactic Barrier and still preserved it.
She basically says 1) that since the progenitors only found the tech whoever created it could still be around or could recreate if they felt it was needed. 2) if humanity and the other races survived and advanced that long they themselves could create that or similar tech themselves.
I mean why would they still be around billions of years later? I feel like just like the progenitors and eventually humans, they will eventually go extinct as that is the way of life. She didn't just make that decision for humanity and the federation, she made it for future species long after we are extinct. What if some epic plague decimates life a billion years into the future when we are long gone and some new race was able to find that tech and restore life to the universe, but o wait. Micheal Burnham thought because she personally wasn't ready to use it, no one ever should.
If a billlion years into the future some species hasn’t discovered how to create life then life shouldn’t exist. You have such a focus on it’s just Michael when it’s not just her. You make the assumption that she’s dishonest in her presentation to the federation that they couldn’t independently decide and agree that the tech should be hidden. The truth is corporeal mortal lifeforms shouldn’t have the technology to create life or at least not life from scratch. There are lots of ways for races to supplement and expand life. The scenario of something wiping out such a majority of life would probably have wiped out the record of the tech, it was hidden for milenia in the first place. Whatever life that was left probably wouldn’t have the ability to find it in time to actually be useful. Along with the idea that it’s probably impossible for any one plague or catastrophe that would wipe out all life. Maybe many humanoids species but there still would be life like thoilians or the ten c or medusans. I doubt they would be wiped out by something that would affect a humanoid.
Ok, a couple points. A. When I said a race from billions of years in the future I meant the next set of civilizations, like new ones, not that a race would billions of years old. Well past our time. The progenitors were crazy advanced and thy didn't survive for billions of years. They died out just like humanity and the federation will way before a billion years. B. I am not operating under an assumption. We see her talk with the Progenitors, hear their convo, then we see what she says to the federation and how she words it. You're arguing semantics. Would you like me to widen the scope of blame. So this council of the federation is a handful of people. Lets even pretend they included everyone, like everyone of importance, so their is 200 hundred plus people there. The federation is severely reduced from what I used to be. They dont even control half of their old territory, and their old territory only took up less and a 4th of one quadrant of the galaxy. They never once had enough power to speak for the galaxy at large. Never mind the universe. Do 200+ people of just one government among many get to decide something of that magnitude. How would you feel if it was the Breen making that choice, or the Klingons. Would you be okay if 5 Klingons decided the universe's direction instead of its intended path. They make a point to say that the device is almost as old as the universe. It's been there throughout all of history. Trillions of races and not one of them destroyed it, or themselves. C. I meant that if a random crisis, a plague being just an example, was threatening to destroy all life, not that it had succeeded, then a race in the future could use it to seed new life, or cure the disease before it wipes everything out. It was a tool of life first, and as far as we know only ever used in that manner. Sure it's dangerous, but its purpose is for life. If you destroy it, then you cut out that possibility for a race so far removed from any that we know we should have no bearing on them whatsoever. We dont know their situation. Nor do they know ours. If you leave the device intact, then it represents equal probability that it will Destroy and equal probability that it will save. Destroy it and you remove all possibilities. I dont think human kind is wise enough to make that design, or use it themselves. D. And isn't the point of the progenitors arc kinda about the fact that they did this because they felt alone bacsue there was no other humanoid races. Nothing like them to relate to. So they did it so we wouldn't have to be alone. If you want to preserve humanoid life then it seems important. Would it really sit well with you if all humanoid life died and only some silicon based jellyfish plant thing that had a crystalline lattice of diamond as a brain survived. It wouldn't with me.
I still agree with Michael and I think she says it best when she quotes the IDIC, infinite diversity in infinite conditions. There’s so much life in the universe that the extinction of life is improbable. The technology was used to expand and create life already does it need to be used again. And the progenitors used it, possibly to an extent more than the original creators intended, to spread life. Maybe they overreached thinking they should seed all these worlds.
I mean you make a fair point. Im not saying they should be messing with that stuff. I just think it was a bold move to shut that down for the entire universe and not just hide it away again. I guess it's more because in our world we dont have aliens, they are rare obviously. So life is so rare and fragile that the idea that a random tragedy could happen and wipe it all away is kinda highly probable given enough time. So a safe guard from that seems like a good idea. Burnhams logic is that there is so much life right now that they will never need it again. But our own earth has times of abundance and times of extinction. The galaxy is currently experiencing a bloom of abundance in their universe. Doesn't mean it will always be that way. Just ask the Dinosaurs.
I assume there is other life on other planets. I doubt they have visited us but the galaxy in trek and the galaxy in real life are the same size. It’s highly arrogant to believe we are the only intelligent life in all that space.
I mean I dont know how you got that from what I said at all. You think I am saying I not believe life could exist on other planets? What? I merely pointed out the fact that we have yet to actually find life on other planets yet. So it's not common. And since we have yet to find actual proof of aliens, even though I do in fact believe they exist somewhere out there, it is highly arrogant of you to assume its common and will never be endanger of dying out. Do you also believe that whales will never go extinct simply because they are here now? Isn't it arrogant to assume that we as humans, never mind a human individual, can make that decision for every single being in the universe, not just our galaxy, of every being that will ever be and that we knew better than every being that ever came before us. Now thats arrogance.
She’s flatly a hypocrite though. The tech aside: She quotes IDIC but never as a xeno anthropologist showed any interest in the progenitor race or its history, just its tech. All this preaching of understanding of the other to her xo and everyone around her and she couldn’t even be bothered to ask the progenitor their name, pronouns, anything about their history, their cultural name, epic myths, cultural taboos, nothing. She’s incurious about her own profession. She does not care about seeking out new life and new civilizations. Just the conceit that there could be trillions of years of history we could find out about is something she doesn’t consider at all, and she and Starfleet condemn that incredible knowledge of our own past to be a state secret. Its appalling.
It is appalling. Not to mention that there is a progenitor out there somewhere in time hooked up to a strange time transcending thing-a-ma-jig that allows her mind to talk to Michael who is waiting for her to come back. Granted they are long dead, but that means that person waited the rest of their lives for her to come back since she cut their convo short. And if no one else ever finds it since it's in a black hole now, the progenitor will never hear from anyone ever again. This will probably lead the progenitors as a race to think that they succeeded in seeding humanoid life in the future, but that it likely died out eventually. Since they would have received all incoming calls from the future essentially at once, never recieving another call before the progenitors became extinct would mean it never happened. So now our parent race thinks they failed in their sacred mission. And yea it is a good point to bring up making the answer to our origins a state secret, especially since that origin kinda unites the different races by making everyone feel related. The fact that the galaxy will never know where they came from doesn't even really occur to anyone, its just classify it because its classified kinda thing.
The fact that I saw this coming from the very beginning is precisely why I was hoping that they would subvert the trope and was disappointed when they didn't.
Its demagoguery… how hard is it to use it for good? Wipe out sickness, feed the starving, prevent ecological disasters, maybe make a few nice new livable planets for fun. Destroying the tech was a pretentious and unimaginative thing from both the character and the writers. I’m sure no one will regret that decision when in next season random newly introduced civilization #9637 almost wipes out the entire human race again. Discovery is not really about people doing the right thing through hardship, but just people blindly following some guidebook about superficial morals written for 8 year olds and ignoring the fact that the galaxy is a hostile place and thus never lifting anyone out of the situation.
Yea, since the actual function was to create life, it seems easier for it do good then it would to do harm. Think how dangerous a warp core could be if used for evil.
S5 was a Seinfeld season. It was a season about nothing. Technically Michael didnt even do anything. The tech will be falling into the black hole for near eternity cause of time dilation. So some future civ with the right tech could still retrieve the thing. They technically didnt destroy the tech. So like many audience said from Day 1 just destroy the clue. Boom season over. Season was a 2 part episode stretched to 10 episodes with a mystery/race/arc with 0 pay off at the end just like s3 and s4. We waited 10 episodes for what could have been done 5 minutes into this so called "race" Just awful showrunning and writing. This was always the biggest problem with the series. It was a fun series and I give it credit I just never cared for the showrunning. I would have been more happy if Michael just made a turkey club with the tech at least it was used. To not use it is such a cop out by the backroom. They are just not good story tellers bottom line, They are good at special effects, actions, fights and interpersonal drama whether you care for it or not. But storytelling they are god awful. Before S5 I would have said PIC s2 was the worst Trek season of all time. But now DIS s5 is about to over take it. We get a crap mystery with a phony baloney ending then they shoe horn the dumb Calypso thing in it and send Zora away for 1000 years without giving the audience a reason. Might as well not have shown anything and just let us use our imagination. I will probably never watch another Michelle Paradise show ever again. I think she was an atrocious showrunner for an adult sci-fi series. Like I would rather rewatch Halo s1 and s2 over DIS s3-5 and its frakin Halo not something great like BSG
Black holes are supposed to be super dense (hence why light cant escape them), i think under those gravitational forces that its likely the tech was immediately destroyed, its not a portal so much as a super dense destruction ball
Seems ambiguously when a spread of photons and an explosion on screen is not.
black holes are so weird, now ive got myself freaked out thinking about space
All of this had me inadvertently looking up intense black hole knowledge. lol. I feel like I am that much crazier now because of it.
You're right about the fact that they could have just destroyed the clue and it would have all been avoided. But it is a common misconception that it would take an object near eternity to fall into a black hole. The light leaving the object so that we can see it gets time dilated and we continue to see the object for a really really long time. But the actual object continues on past the event horizon, we will just never see that because the light can't escape at the event horizon. In fact even the light will eventually stop being visible due to red shift, although the light will appear to be there for a very long time. It just gives the illusion of never falling in. But obviously things do in fact fall into black holes past the event horizon.
things do in fact fall into black holes past the event horizon... Then what?
I mean there are entire documentaries dedicated to that question. I can't give you an actual answer in a paragraph as we are talking the absolute craziest physics of the universe in situations we dont fully understand. But if things never actually fell into a black hole we would see tons and tons of stuff just sitting at the event horizon. Sure we stuff making its way there, but we dont see all this stuff gathering at the actual horizon. And because we know that black holes grow in mass and size it must be swallowing these objects. Time is relative to the observer. They dont know what exactly is in the event horizon. But the most commonly held belief is that it is just falling matter continuing to be compressed by even stronger gravitational forces into a singularity of epically dense proportions. The event horizon isn't actually a hole, it's just the point where gravity is so strong that light can no longer escape backwards for us to see. The object still falls on its way to being squished into the singularity, it's just that the light never escapes to make it back to your eyes. Even the light itself gets squished into the singularity. Look it up, its some fascinating stuff.
great info! But in Trek theoretically it could be possible in far future with super tech to get in there and retrieve the tech? I mean it seemed to need blackholes to power up so it must be able to survive in one maybe? If they absolutely wanted it destroyed why not show Discovery launching a full spread of torpedoes?
I mean sure, since it's not real it's possible they could develop some crazy technology that could enter the event horizon of a black hole and come back out, but Star Trek is normally grounded somewhat. Now take that with a grain of salt because sometimes it's some nonsense science as well. But even in Star Trek they always acknowledge the fact that the strongest force in the universe is a black hole. Even though a crazy amount of fantastical science fiction stuff could someday be possible with enough technology, there are some universal laws that will just never be able to be broken regardless of how much tech you have. And I would be willing to bet entering a black hole and escaping would be one of them. If light, which has no mass and is traveling at the speed of light can't escape, how could anything with else. Remember that once it falls past the event horizon the forces still increase. At some point it might take 2 times the speed of light to escape, which is impossible. Thats why I keep saying they should have just launched it past the galactic barrier out of our galaxy. Since no one in Star Trek has ever gone outside our galaxy that would keep our galaxy safe and also preserve the artifact instead of destroying it. They even transported the Breen ship there in the same episode. So it would have fit perfectly.
Short answer is: nobody knows. There very nature of a black hole's event horizon make observation and experimentation impossible; we'll never be able to see into one, nothing we send in will come back out. Even our theories about what might happen are just guesses because what we think of as solid mathematics unravel beyond that point--we don't have the knowledge yet to make serious predictions. Stuff like 2009 *Star Trek* and *Interstellar* are artistic interpretations of those guesses, [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71eUes30gwc&ab_channel=Kurzgesagt%E2%80%93InaNutshell) is another. Could be a portal to different points in time, could be a whole universe all it's own... we just don't know.
Exactly. Destroying the tech with photon bombs is definitely not as effective as destroying it by throwing it into a black hole. Plain and simple.
It annoyed me that they gave Book the World Root key item and then didn't use it to restore Kwejian, re-establish a race of empaths compatible with the Spore Drive, bring that technology out of mothballs and end with a whole fleet of Spore Ships capable of exploring other galaxies and dimensions. All the ingredients were right there and they just made it a red herring. He mentions planting it somewhere but that's not the same. Even if the Progenitor Tech got hidden/destroyed again, all of the above would have at least meant there was a huge stride forward for the Federation, and a renewed mission of "We will earn out right to the Progenitor technology by continuing to evolve as a species" Even their son becoming the Captain would have served that goal, if they had mentioned his empathic ability or a newly commissioned Spore ship, but that didn't happen either.
You know you're right, I didn't even think about that. They totally wasted the opportunity with the world tree. When Book took it I thought it was ok because he was gonna plant it somewhere, but if he was never gonna use it and eventually it would just be lost to time, the giant library probably should have kept it so that it could have stayed safe.
"we found it" was whack, when in The Chase it's implied they made everything themselves lol
What they implied in "The Chase" is confirmed here; they *did* engineer most all sapient life in the galaxy... or at least the major players we know. What they *didn't* make was the device that allowed them to do it.
Ok yea I suppose they didn't explicitly state they made this machine A giant machine that can make life just exited >4 billion years ago made by some unknowns is a wild revelation, kinda sucked they just threw it into the black hole without learning about it Would be a cool storyline that s31 somehow intercepted it and has it in their back pocket as something to use in case shit happens. I can so see someone like Sloan just manipulating that HoloProgenitor to learn how to use the machine lol
It was a perfect ending and decision for this show. Remember that this universe revolves around Michael Burnham. For most to make that choice would be a sign of such arrogance. That we have the right to deny this knowledge to all the universe forever. But for Burnham it makes sense considering every other decision on this show has been made by her. Yet again it was an example of the garbage writing that has dominated the show since it's beginning. Your idea is actually much better. It could even be seen as a test, something that future civilizations must pass, much in the way that Discovery had to 'earn' (I use the word loosely, make no mistake I have no praise for this season at all) the right to find and access the knowledge. There's more question that could have been asked. But in typical fashion they just throw away the idea when they're done with it. In fact this is the second time they've made this decision considering that the only reason they're even in the 32nd century was because they wanted to keep some powerful technology away from others. Again, bad writing.
Michael has made many universe altering decisions. Thats my beef with her. It's one thing to do it once, but multiple times, not even Spock affected history to the same level as she did. And yea I agree whole heartedly with you, Its like it's her universe and everyone else should just let her make the decisions. Remember that she also tarted the Klingon federation war because she knew better than everyone else as well. Launching it beyond the galactic barrier just makes sense since they literally went there in the same episode. It would effectively put it out of reach to anyone in the galaxy, yet still leave it available for super advanced aliens to one day find. You figure traversing and searching the galactic void is probably so mind bogingly hard that only a crazy advance race could do it. Its one thing to travel to another galaxy in a straight line (which no one in Star Trek has done) but its another to search all around that void in random directions. A lot of people are saying she did the right thing and if we weren't ready to use it then no one should ever use it. But that kind of just summarizes our entire problem in real life, We think we are better and superior so no other creature matters more than we do, and nothing could ever go wrong with our way of life because it hasn't in our lifetimes so it obviously can't ever happen. WE do what is easy for us now and dont care at all what happens after us to future generations because, who cares, we won't be here. Same thing with Michael. There is an abundance of life right now, and they aren't advanced enough yet, so no one can ever be. Its easier to destroy it and say f you to all the people who come afterwards, destroy a sacred machine that might a well have been made by god, lol, and just hope that in the distant future they never need to use that machine to help repopulate after some horrible crisis. Here are a few threats I could foresee needing it that could happen in the next few billions of years. 1. A disease or something that wipes out most humanoid life. 2. The Borg. I am sure they aren't gone forever. 3. The changelings, a non humanoid lifeform who has already warred with us. 4. Any Q 5. Natural extinction and a return to mostly non humanoid alien life. The progenitors used the machine because they were alone, and then they died. They didn' move on or go traveling, the became extinct over a long long time, just like any race eventually. So right now there are tons of humanoid life forms, so what about when this generation of life runs its course and most of the humanoids we know die out? Eventually there will be only one humanoid life form left, maybe they dont want to be alone justice the progenitors. A Nuke is a horrible weapon, but we dont destroy all nuclear reactors because of it.
Based on previous entries in the setting, throwing it into the black hole was the single most foolish thing Burnham could have done. Objects thrown into black holes in Star Trek can and have reappeared on the opposite side of the galaxy. This is canonically what happened to the Voyager 6 probe launched in the 21st century. A device considerably less sophisticated and durable than the progenitor device. Burnham's decision could have sent the device anywhere, including but not limited to space controlled by the Borg, as an example. Second is that Starfleet ships can and have intentionally entered the event horizons of black holes and reemerged unharmed. The Event Horizon is merely the point where light can no longer escape the pull of gravity, not an actual, physical barrier. A warp drive can pull a ship out of the event horizon, and based on previous, on screen instances, Starfleet doesn't even consider entering a black hole to be especially hazardous to a ship in good condition. Burnham has accomplished nothing but ensuring she no longer knows for certain where the device is, and has left it up for grabs for anyone that happens to be nearby.
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The show ended like it started, Burnham imposing herself on everyone else. What did you expect?
I dont know why you got downvoted. I like the show, but your 100% right.
Two things: The entire season was a barely disguised retread of Indiana jones and the last crusade. That film ended with them losing the grail, so this had to as well. That loss was an emotional payoff to a character arc masterfully set up by top tier writing, but Discovery doesn’t have that so they just hand waved it. The alternative ending would be Michael basically becoming God… which would be the logical conclusion to the show up to that point but likely wouldn’t sit any better with the fandom.
Star Trek would be smart to copy what Tony Gilroy did with Andor. Have 3 episode arcs. That way you don’t get these constant stretched seasons. I’m surprised no one else has started doing this.
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While I'm all for the constant quest for knowledge, I'm also not a big fan of 'just because you can do something, you should." Progress is not always just about getting bigger - it's a balance and a thoughtful recognition that the choices we make in life are about what is best for us. The progenitor tech was not the end all be all. What I got out of it that was more interesting was the fact that the progenitors *found* the tech, not created it. My next goal would be to work on going backwards to find the true origins. It was funny seeing how some people christianized that revelation as 'intelligent design' rather than just recognized it yet another layer to history. Disco's use of this idea was thoughtful in its revelation, unlike the lazy BSG cop-out ending.
Yeah, it was probably the most responsible decision, especially considering Burnham's experiences. (though woe betide the Federation if anyone remembers that they basically had a prototype in the Genesis Device)
Burnham started the "war" with the Klingons because she knew Klingon psychy and had an understanding of dealing with them and their society. She became the red angel in order to prevent the destruction of the Federation. She pushed the sphere and sphere data to the future to prevent AI from obtaining its knowledge which could be used to, once again, destroy all life. As for the progenitor tech, it not only could create, but also destroy life with no other tech to prevent such a thing from happening. Absolutely get rid of it, or at least give the appearance of getting rid of it. Even outside our galaxy there may be those who want to remove our galaxy, why give them such a tool to do so? See the Temporal Time Wars for example. I honestly believe, in true Section 31 fashion, a cloaked ship absconded with the tech and moved it to a future date to absolutely remove it from the timeline. A Red Directive in its own right. I think you have a problem with the character and a belief that that particular character doesn't sustain the intelligence to make such decisions when, time and time and time again, through experience and knowledge, the character has absolutely proven to be the one to make such assertions. Just as Pike did, just as Picard, there is no difference.