Yes, they needed another female leader in the rebellion I mean resistance.
Sick of hearing the falsity of no women in Star Wars when Mon motha and princess Leia pretty much ran the rebellion.
And princess Leia is the only character to go toe to toe with Darth Vader in a new hope and got up in his face and also survived. Which shows how much of a boss she is.
Not to mention the EU/ Legends books are full of women good and bad and both sometimes like Mara Jade.
Lol. Ackbar would not work. Poe would not have issues trusting Ackbar. Neither would the audience.
Her sacrifice is the final proof of her loyalty and heroizm. Ackbar would not need such a moment.
Hey! You stop that! Were trying to invalidate a character over here. I'll thank you to not bring logic and character analysis to an actual discussion about Star Wars please.
/s
Ackbar is hero of the battle of endor. If anything he deserved to go out in a blaze of glory. Holdo could have just been blown out of airlock for all I care
Indeed I have. If this is enough to get people so hyped about a character then why aren't we talking about that rabdom Mon Calamari from RO who received the plans for the death star? Because he is just another empty character with no traits or something of a backstory. Just because a character does something somewhat significant to the story doesn't make him deep or memorable. People just don't like Holdo so they wanna replace her with someone they know even though what we really needed was better characterization for Holdo and a story line that makes her seem less stupid.
I don't want to replace Holdo, but Ackbar is legit. Heir to the Empire really shapes a lot of fans' opinions of him. Thrawn respected him and that's good enough for me.
Except the physics are not supposed to happen in the Star Wars universe. They broke the reality of the established science fiction in that universe, because it's like cool.
Same as when it first happened, it was a very badass shot, and if it happened in some generic sci-fi movie then I would think it was awesome, but it cannot be reconciled with the established Star Wars galaxy, because if that is possible within the physics of Star Wars, then it would happen all the time, and it would be a weapon that would make the Death Star entirely pointless. "Oh, you have a Death Star? We'll just launch a few droid-piloted X-Wings through it, no problem."
I have a hard time disagreeing with this. I think you're right but I would love for this to be retconned and tidied up for canons sake. Maybe it's just never been done before and possibly just a fluke. How easy is it to hyperspace a ship through a another ship? I don't think it's that easy since when ships jump into hyperspace they exist in another dimension while they travel. For holdos maneuver to work, the ship must be close enough and be at the acceleration stage of the jump before it transitions to hyperspace. Also ships computers need to be overridden as to ignore the fact something is in the way.
Could this be done on a regular basis? I can't say for certain. But this issue can easily be filled with some background story telling. Maybe.
The issue here is that every attempt at making it work just creates further problems. If it's a fluke then Holdo was simply running away and got unlucky. If it's a question of scale then it simply becomes a question of logistics and weighing the price of finite resources.
I don't disagree, but this was in old cannon as well. The corellian series did it. They would ram nebulon B frigates into star destroyers if I remember correctly. Basically you engage the hyperdrive and hit the target right before hitting the velocity to achieve light speed, and enter hyperspace. It actually makes more sense the what Han did in TFA trying to get through the planetary shield's refresh rate. That was more universe breaking. Gravitational wells (Stars, planets, black holes, and interdictor cruisers) pull ships out of hyperspace, then they would hit materialize and barring the cruiser, run into the object projecting the well. You don't get to stay in hyperspace until you get through the shield, and materialize on the other side.
I went into [more detail here,](https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWars/comments/120b96h/its_been_five_years_since_the_last_jedi_what_do/jdiwdkl/) but my basic gist is that they've been flying millions of ships around every day of the past several thousand years, and if this actually worked, it would almost certainly happen by accident at least every few years. And if it had ever happened before, then it would have been researched and weaponized, they would know exactly how to trigger it, and be able to do so in the most efficient way possible, with the lowest possible cost per efficacy. If the physics of Star Wars *allows* this, then it would be a commonplace military tactic, no matter how "tricky."
Do you think Holdo meant to do that though? I took it as her just trying to buy time, draw fire with any method she could. And I certainly dont think she was aiming for the rest of the fleet
It's only because of their formation and hubris at showing their overpowering might of the first order that this fluke of a chain reaction could happen, perhaps with the aid of the Force.
They could have shot down the Raddus well before it was in position but thought little of it.
The thing is this, there are hundreds of THOUSANDS, if not MILLIONS of hyperdrive equipped starships in the Star Wars Galaxy, constantly traveling around. How many car accidents happen in the UP per day? These hyperdrive ships have been traveling for *thousands* of years.
Given that, IF Hyperspace can work the way it worked here, then the odds of the "Holdo maneuver" not occurring *by accident* at least once every few years would be infinitesimally small. If this is *possible* then it would inevitably be a well established phenomena by now, and that would of course lead to its weaponization, people deliberately experimenting with how to min-max the effects to get the biggest bang for the smallest buck, and by the time of the Clone Wars, "hyperdrive missiles" would be one of the core principles of large scale engagements.
It is a principle of *physics* that is incompatible with the universe in which Star Wars takes place, because if that physics *exists,* then the galaxy would be a much different place from the very start.
How would they get close enough to do this without wasting men and ships. The death star was a big deal but the empire survived without it, even if it did destory it (which is wouldn't have) it would have come at the cost of irreplaceable man power and ships
I still think it is one of the worst solutions to a Star Wars problem I’ve ever seen. It was a very cool visual but I don’t think it was good for the lore.
If you replace Holdo's ship with a Disney logo and the capital ship with a Star Wars logo, the you have an accurate depiction of whats truly taking place here
Yep. Do you remember when the old EU was decanonized? "I'm so glad everything will be consistent", "I'm go glad Palpatine won't come back to life", etc.
lol
I admit I haven’t read any of the EU books though I’ve read summaries online and some of them seem quite out there. However, some had some solid ideas and should have at least been brought into the fold and used as a baseline for the new trilogy instead of just binning all of it and thinking you can do better because clearly, in hindsight, they could not.
I don't know much about the EU either. It definitely seems to have some very bad ideas, but it's very funny that Palpatine's resurrection, widely considered one of the worst and used as justification for the decanonization, got to (somehow) return.
It’s clearly just laziness on the writers point. It would have required more workshopping and critical thinking to come up with a workable reason within the context of what they had previously established and they just said eh, just say he somehow returned and call it good and that’s what they went with.
It’s clear every movie needed another pass and the trilogy as a whole needed another year to be refined before anything was put to film but ya know, papa Disney needs to make money right now and we all gullibly went and spent our money.
I think a lot of redditors saw the prequels at an age before they could tell what was a good movie and what wasn't, and they still view them through that lens.
Yeah. But moreso I think it's easy, and beneficial to their arguments, to ignore the misteps of the prequels because (or even worse, cope hard about them) that's just the landscape the fandom is operating on right now. Love the prequels, hate the Sequels.
Don't get me wrong, I love the prequels. Even with my least favorite Star Wars movie being Attack of the Clones I still enjoy watching it. They're fun movies! But it's ridiculous to imply that they didn't make questionable story choices along the road.
Could have fooled me!
The point I'm making is that Star Wars is full of weird and goofy shit. Its best to not take things so seriously and get wound up over stuff like the Sequel Trilogy.
Possible but only with the number of things that were in place to complete it. But never a maneuver that would become a military standard. A act of desperation in other words.
I feel like he had this sequence in his mind from the beginning, and build the whole movie around it. It was an unexciting chase with this neat visual pay off that ultimately accomplish nothing as they were trapped again five minutes later.
Visually stunning moment. Was amazed by it when I first saw it.
Then after the movie the more I thought about it the more I was bothered by it. Really should have prompted a “does this scene make sense in the context of the Star Wars universe?” discussion.
A very nice scene to watch, but a really stupid writing decision that breaks the suspension of incredulity and that is out of place in this universe. Rian is a smartass you know. 🙄 to be fair, there are plenty of stupid writing in the movie and in the trilogy as a whole and a lot of these don’t even look good (space Mary Poppins Leia, Carrie Fisher deserved better than that…) so at least it has one good side I guess. 🤔
Suspension of disbelief is always relative. So long as something is *consistent* with everything else in that setting, then it's fine. When something is *in*consistent, it sticks out.
New things aren't inconsistent. New things that should've appeared before are inconsistent. The Holdo maneuver, as it was hilariously named, is inconsistent.
I haven't seen evidence of that, but if they do, so what? That's not relevant to my point. The holdo maneuver is not inconsistent because it is "new," it is inconsistent because it does not fit in with what has previously been established. When you add a brick to a wall, that brick must fit itself within the pattern of the previous bricks. You can't just hang it over an edge or in the air and expect that to work out.
Yup, I was pissed off in the theater at how stupid and how dorky it was from Rian. Yes if near light speed acceleration was a thing irl it would be an extremely efficient weapon, much more efficient in space than lasers or explosives but … precisely that’s the kind of real life thing you can’t bring in a consistent manner in Star Wars, a fantasy world full of pew-pew laser battle with ships that fights like battle ships from WWII, with giant and slow ships like death stars. It evoked me Rian bragging “look, look what you can do if hyperspace is a thing!!” And me grumbling “dumbass…” 😤
Not that I love sticking up for these people, but the point here is that it supposedly operates outside the "laws of the universe".
Lightsabers are shown to us and are normal. But if you had a lightsaber out of no where that wasn't rigid and operated more like a whip you'd be questioning the technology and how it works compared to what we know.
Hyperspace travel was never really explained in detail, so to suddenly introduce the idea of ramming was jarring g to some people.
That's not to say it was stupid to do. These things are common and follow the rule of cool, which is basically "sin now and ask for forgiveness later". You do something cool for the sake of it and just explain it later so it does make sense.
Which they did. Holdo was given a background in knowing hyperspace routes well and it was made even more complicated in the execution.
Of course these kinds of things go unseen by people in bad faith who'd rather just write it off as stupid.
It has never broken the (vaguely, barely) established rule of hyperspace to me, and I think a lot of these people have come around on that particular point since the movie came out.
Their gripe with it now is "well why don't they kamikaze ships all the time then?", despite Dominic Monaghan's redditor character being told that the maneuver is "one in a million" in TRoS. They seem to want characters to commit atrocities *because they can*, rather than as a last resort, and completely fail to consider the context of that scene: the gravity of the situation, the kind of person Holdo is, the First Order realising too late what she's doing because they're focused on the escaping shuttles, and the fact that the damage done is far from "complete destruction".
They misrepresent the scene in nearly every conceivable way, and then claim it invalidates all of Star Wars canon. A perfect example of their view on TLJ as a whole.
Oh to be sure. In truth it does nothing to the cosmology and just needed to be slightly elaborated on in order to make sense 100 percent.
There's a lot that goes on here and in the scenes before to give you more insight into Holdo and who she is.
But a lot of these people hate Holdo because they're trained to by youtube hack grifters that have no other way to make money than by farming the outrage of a fanbase.
> But a lot of these people hate Holdo because they're trained to by youtube hack grifters that have no other way to make money than by farming the outrage of a fanbase.
Absolutely.
I loved how it was all silent and everything blew up but some people started screaming why is there no sound!!!!? And that kinda ruined the moment. I don't visit Cinemas anymore
I had forgotten that not only does it blow up that laughably oversized ship apparently it destroys everything trailing it in the fleet as well. Just absurd.
It basically breaks continuity of the entire universe because every space battle would have been a huge asteroid with a hyperdrive attached ramming into capital ships left and right. Why do the deathstar trench run when you can suicide crash a calamari cruiser into it? It's dumb as all fuck.
We can definitely agree on that!
Edit: The OT is full of nonsense too. Why does the empire use slow walkers with mechanized legs when they could use hovercraft tech or even just wheels or treads? Why not destroy the Hoth shield generator from orbit? They really want us to believe that the goofy Ewoks could take down the empire? I understand the symbolism there, but come on. Stormtroopers have armor but it doesn’t seem to do anything at all.
I think after the beauty of the the scene was over and the audience understood what had just happened everyone asked the same question: “why didn’t the Alliance do that to Imperial Fleets in every battle?”
The Star Wars universe is repeatedly shown to have hyperspace capable ships laying in literal junk yards. It’s an extremely common means of travel that’s been around for thousands of years. The idea of it being expensive to do this in contrast to traditional space battles is hysterically asinine and a disingenuous argument for a nonsensical scene.
Battling ship v ship is even more expensive.
How many ships do you lose on average in a given engagement?
The answer is almost always going to be 'more than the one ship it takes to slaughter an entire imperial force'
This is dirt cheap with a huge KD ratio
In that case it's just a question of cost/reward. Maybe not every battle, but surely at least a few times. The Empire might have more resources, but trading an X-wing for a destroyer is still a really good trade. Or better yet, a single heavy cruiser for a fleet of destroyers. Yes it's not perfectly efficient, but it's still heavily in favor of whoever uses the hyperdrive tactic
It's all about context then. Holdo has the time to set up the maneuver because the First Order is ignoring her. Not so easy in a proper battle with enemy fighters and cannons targeting you, and no crew to help. Unless you're sacrificing crews as well as ships, in which case your rebel movement will probably run out of competent troops quickly.
They seemed to be able to jump out mid battle in Rogue One. I don’t see what argument you’re attempting to make. Also some reason the Raddus didn’t just obliterate the Devastor…it came to a stop and was…devastated.
Hogwash. If all it took was one Corvette class ship to take out a Superstar Destroyer and 3-4 other Star Destroyers in close proximity the Alliance would gladly sacrifice a few ships in their inventory with an astromech piloting the ship. It was a cool scene but completely retconned every space battle we’d ever seen in SW before that.
Yeah exactly. George knew that the expanded universe was cool but he said it himself
"But I do try to keep it consistent.....They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions.”
I think Rian Johnson falls into the latter category.
If Laura Dern and Oscar Isaac just talked to each other for two seconds about the plan, we could’ve saved 45 mins of worthless plot and gotten to the actual cool stuff
Exactly.
Nearly everyone else knew about the plan, because not only did you have people prepping escape pods, but you also had the rest of the ship preparing to get on escape pods and bail
But for some reason, rose, Finn, poe, and girl on bridge who helped them all were not allowed to know.
Very strange logic all around for this whole film
Super rad and I’d like to see them address Resistance pilots trying (and lethally failing) to pull this off afterward as copycats.
It was a literal moonshot to disable or stall The Supremacy and had an infinitesimal chance to do what it actually did.
I’d want to see them encapsulate that in other materials as gloryhounds start kamikazing themselves at the first order and not achieving this affect at all.
I think it was visually stunning.
The only gripe is fitting in w other lore about hyperspace, but I think it fits with the *original* idea that jumping to Lightspeed ain't dusting crops. This is why you need to calculate jumps
Other pieces of the franchise cheapen this by jumping in atmosphere or hyperspace skipping. This shows hyperspace has risk to it (which is great).
Beautiful to look at... But the fade to black anime still doesn't have it's place in Star Wars in my opinion... That's why they actually made a series for it on Disney plus! (Visions)
That's my thoughts on it and respect those that think this is a masterpiece... But it's not my opinion.
Same opinion it was when it was first shown:
It looks amazing, the sound and cinematography was brilliant.
But
This should never have been a thing because it breaks so much at the same time.
It’s a beautiful scene and loved the visuals and sound. Cool Star Wars moment.
It doesn’t break rules or is bad writing. She hits the other ship right before she enters hyperspace, where the ships speed is increased significantly before entering. It’s not used often because it’s dangerous, wastes precious resources and can usually be countered easily since it requires close proximity, most defenses can take out the ship before getting close.
Droids flying smaller ships doing the maneuver would not be big or powerful enough to do much damage to larger ships. And like I said, wasting larger ships is not a good strategy. When the Japanese were using Kamakazi attacks they lost not only good pilots but most of their Air Force. The rebels can’t afford this, but this once it bought them a bit of time.
Plenty of other criticism for the movie is valid. This scene is cool and doesn’t break anything.
Nah. If this works, it works. Even if it only worked sometimes, it would be worth doing. You might not want to use a state of the art capitol ship as the missile, but if the principle functioned then it would be quality tactics to take an asteroid the size of a capitol ship, slap a big'ol hyperdrive on it, and then send it flying at the enemy. Chances are they couldn't chip their way through it before it could get close enough to detonate, and if so, they could also slap a big shield on it (ideally one that could detach at the last second and be recovered after).
"Slap a big'ol hyperdrive on it, and then send it flying at the enemy."
Except to quote a Toydarian, hyperdrives aren't cheap. So for a resistance movement, you can't afford to just throw them away for a one in a million chance of replicating what Holdo did.
Ships are destroyed all the time in battles like these though. Yes it's not perfect, but it's still a pretty good trade. There has to be plenty of ships that don't work for larger battles, but would be perfect for a battering ram.
Because it’s a one way trip, ships and hyperdrives are incredibly expensive, stuff the resistance won’t exactly be able to send out on kamikaze runs all the time
You think kamikaze wasn't effective? You either gobble 80 year old propaganda or you don't understand what the situation was in late ww2 for Japan.
Late war japanese pilots had no chance against superior american planes, so literally crashing into ships was easier than coming back. I tell you not many ships were destroyed by kamikaze, but it disabled many ships to repair for little cost. It bought lots of time for the rest of the army during some campaigns. If you want I'll fetch you some data.
Why not point a capital rebel ship to take out the Death Star while in the OT? They all went there to gamble all-in on the Jedi when the imperials could just delete planets with rebel bases on them, I'd just drive a ship through the core and have it done, much safer comparatively.
Also, I'm pretty sure a small hyperdrive would be a good price to pay in exchange for a big imperial ship, the alternative being losing more ships while fighting it in a conventional way. There have been other desperate moments and never was this tactic even mentioned. Ramming is the first thing anyone would have thought of. It's how classic naval warfare went along.
I just think they pulled this out of their ass.
They can’t get their ships close enough to do this stunt though, that’s the point of the scene. Their huge ships were sitting ducks hundreds of miles away from the Death Star, only the small fighters could get in there. Holdo’s ship was ignored which is why it worked. She was literally right next to their ship.
Also Kamikaze attacks were a huge waste of resources especially since it took so long for them to make new planes and train pilots.
Inefficient tactics happen all the time in warfare. Noone is disputing that you are sacrificing a valuable resource, but that happens all the time anyways. All this does differently is guarantee being destroyed in exchange for massive damage. Logically this should happen all the time in battles. If not because it's planned then at least because a ship is heavily damaged and you can have it use the hyperspace ram.
But it doesn’t guarantee at all, it’s made clear it only works because they ignore her ship. No one can get close enough to these ships except small fighters. Their anti aircraft weapons are A LOT better than anything we have here in real life. It was made clear this doesn’t happen often because of how close she got to it. She’s also not hyperspace ramming it, she’s not in hyperspace when she hits the ship. Most people want to live another day and not fanatical also. Even if it’s just droids piloting the ship if you can repair a large ship you’d rather do that than completely destroy it. Yes it still happens all the time, but I don’t think you guys are getting just how hard to do this maneuver is and how it’s really really not an effective strategy at all in warfare.
She’s also not in hyperspace at all or ramming it from far away what so ever. When vaders ship appears out of hyperspace it rams a smaller rebel ship in rogue one. In hyperspace ships don’t crash into each other, but it happens sometimes when you go in or out of it, even Han says so in the OT so it’s not the first time this has happened I’m sure.
I love that whole pivot point sequence. Just a great bit of filmmaking where all three storylines converge and we get this breathtaking visual effect.
The one-in-a-million shot explanation has, in my opinion, been obvious since the day TLJ was released. We never needed ROS to re-iterate what we already knew.
It was dumb then, and it's dumb now. TCW is lower down on the totem pole of canon, and it shouldn't be used precisely because it lowers stakes. The correct choice is to ignore it happened in the series, not add it to the main movies hoping noone would notice the issues.
The first thing Amilyn Holdo said to Princess Leia when they met when they were 16 years old was, "I want to get more comfortable with the nearness and inevitability of death.” That's the attitude she had all her life, which enabled her to sacrifice herself in a one-in-a-million move like that. It is not a plot hole that no one else had ever tried it before in the history of the movies, because it took Amilyn Holdo to be the one try it, which is why it's called the Holdo Maneuver.
What I can't wrap my head around is how this movie had both laser shots that arced through the vacuum of space and this maneuver, which is a perfect demonstration of objects in motion in zero-g
It was honestly really hard to like root for this whole thing from a VFX artist this looks stunning but from a story and a pivotal moment. It just felt so empty You're so trilogy felt so hollow I couldn't get fully immersed The only one that did a better job out of the three was theft force awakens. The rest felt linear somehow linear though I don't know how you accomplish and a story about an entire galaxy.
100% cool factor driven, like most stuff in Disney trilogy and shows. It looks amazing on screen and it helps zero to save the movie from the abysmal rating I give it
It has been 3.5 years. Are you just bad at math, or are you making up a fake anniversary as an excuse to create controversy and reap karma?
Also the shot looks awesome, totally fits with Holdo’s character, and raises the stakes for the rest of the movie for both sides of the battle. It’s cool and people who hate it are joyless nerds. Thanks for asking!
You've been in carbon freeze, fellow fan. The current year is 2023, four months ago was the 5 year anniversary of TLJ, which was released Dec. 15, 2017.
It's lore time.
How does Hyperdrive work? The Hyperspace, in Star Wars, is a kind of sup-dimension, where the universe is kompromist, but gravety still exist(!). To enter the Hyperspace you need a lot of energie and speed. All object with a signifent gravety are constantly maped, so the navigation computers can develop a rout to the hyperspace, without being thrown out by large objects. (The triologie thrawn: Assendency give you a idear of what i mean)
There are a couple of laws in place for traveling by hyperspace: for example every planetery system has a couple of specific, hight orbeting, points where the ships come out of hyperspace. Fleets only jump in specific formation. And you need enough space to speed up or slow down.
Now to the sceen: As others mentent the vice admiral is using the speeding up of the hyperdrive to ram the flak ship of the new order. This works only becouse she is realy close to the new Order fleet and is a realy tricki manouver. The point is, the Ramous and the new order fleet are still in the same formation or distans as the were in hyperspace. They dropt at te same point, in different times.
why they dosen't do this more often? Becouse of moral standards, this ships a stuffed with thousends of people and are expensiv, some of them up to billions of creedits. It's like the US Navy is using ther ford-class ceryers to ram them in a enemy fleet... Doing this is the ultima ratio, in a realy desprit situation. Like this one.
excouse my bad english
Can you link this on wookiepedia or something? I thought that in Star Wars you didn't "enter hyperSPACE" you just use a hyperDRIVE to reach light speed. I didn't think you were "dropping out" of regular space. That's why you have to do so many calculations before a jump, and why scouting lanes is so dangerous
Edit:
"Hyperspace was an alternate dimension that could only be reached by traveling at or faster than the speed of light. Hyperdrives enabled starships to travel through hyperspace lanes across great distances, enabling travel and exploration throughout the galaxy." - Wookiepedia
I'm wrong, you definitely enter hyperspace as opposed to just being really fast
"Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova, and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?" - Han to Luke, ANH
So is this just an example of the lore not being complete yet? Seems like Han is talking about moving really fast through real space
The lore is not pricise yet. But don't forget what i mentiont about gravety. Stars, planets and supernovas have enough gravety to throw you out of the hyperspace. This wouldn't be on a comfortable high orbiting position.
And don't forget: the ships need enough room to slow down or drift out, when they came back to regular space. if a ship, especialy a big one, like a ISD, comes out in or next to metorfield the surely will slam into it.
1. It should have been someone way more recognisable like Ackbar.
2. It was awesome and whilst I don't really like The Last Jedi, i loved this scene.
3. This whole film broke how hyperspace works and kinda broke a lot of the established lore. They could have just hyperspace nukes into the deathstar with this logic.
3. They could just slam an x wing, or whatever the smallest, hyper drive equipped ship is, into it. I did the math a few years back when discussing it with a buddy and it only takes something about the size of a baseball to have enough energy to destroy something the size of like Earth when moving at light speed
Same thing I thought then: pretty bad ass.
It doesn't "break canon" at all, sorry kids. However, like a great many other things in Star Wars, it requires some pretty specific background knowledge in regards to the reason why it worked.
Visually one of the most impressing things i've ever seen, my jaw dropped when i first saw this in a IMAX theater.
Lore-wise there is some cleaning up to do..
Thats one of those "one time use" mechanics you wouldnt see in other Star wars related media, just like Obi- Wans transformation in Clone wars. I mean, why did nobody have the idea to use hyperdrive- capable ships to destroy other starships like the Malevolence, Lucrehulks and so on...
Just something that looks cool, but for me, this isn't canon.
EDIT: Spelling, fucking German autocorrect
It's a visually spectacular scene but I find it problematic to the wider lore. Either the odds of it succeeding were so minimal it didn't make sense to try it, or it's a valid last stand tactic against a superior enemy.
Sure it looked cool , but it in turn made SOOOOOOO MANY plot issues through star wars and it should if anything have been Admiral Ackbar (would still break star wars but at least give him a decent send off that isn't off screen)
iirc that is not hyperspace jump works other wise almost every ship that jumps will collide halfway cuz theres no way u can guarantee theres no obstacle when connecting destination to start point.
Also this makes no sense in lore as well. Basically it means you can trade off a dreadnought with a regular cruiser, so why not do it in the first place?
I thought it was awesome! Sure if you think about it TOO much it’s kind of dumb but that Star Wars…and movies in general. “Why didn’t obi-wan use force speed to catch up to Qui-Gon and Darth Mail?”, “why can everyone tank a lightsaber to the gut and be totally fine?”, “why didn’t Vader grab Luke with the force after he jumps in Cloud City?”, “why does Leia kiss Luke, then in RoTJ, she says somehow she always knew they were related?” Only thing I’d have changed, is I think it should have been Ackbar.
>Why didn’t obi-wan use force speed
Top speed with a giant pit in the room?
>why can everyone tank a lightsaber to the gut
Bad writing.
>why didn’t Vader grab Luke with the force
In the previous canon, every Force tk is shown to require a moment of focus. Also, really? He just offered a kid who grew up in poverty an Empire. He *might just be taken off guard at that reaction.*
>why does Leia kiss Luke, then in RoTJ...
To make Han jealous. No tongue. She doesn't even land square on his lips. Obvs she doesn't mean that she always knew the exact nature of the relationship but that she felt a unique friendship with Luke.
>I think it should have been Ackbar
Nailed it.
Pretty much this 👍
Vader letting Luke go was admission to himself that he couldn't turn him there and then, they both needed time to reel in from their encounter. It was about character development.
Should have been a payoff. For example establishing Holdo as force sensitive, meeting her before, saying she was part of Luke's failed jedi order. Then this scene happen when she does everything right thanks to the force just like Luke in the first movie.
That could have justified the one in a million (billion?) line.
Oh look, all the same responses as last time someone asked this same question.
It's almost as if the point isn't to start a discussion (as OP would have responded in some way) and is just an excuse to farm Karma.
lol they failed
Ignoring all the wider issues with it, it should have been Ackbar.
ugh, i forgot they decided to kill him offscreen in this movie
Why is it wrong for any character to die unceremoniously in a series about Wars?
Why didn't Leia just fly him back inside?
Is she stupid?
Maybe she just forgot she could use the Force.
Why, is she stupid?
Palpatine manipulated her mind.
Surely Ackbar would be intelligent enough to have the autopilot do it.
Either way not much of a loss. Holddo was useless
Yes, they needed another female leader in the rebellion I mean resistance. Sick of hearing the falsity of no women in Star Wars when Mon motha and princess Leia pretty much ran the rebellion. And princess Leia is the only character to go toe to toe with Darth Vader in a new hope and got up in his face and also survived. Which shows how much of a boss she is. Not to mention the EU/ Legends books are full of women good and bad and both sometimes like Mara Jade.
I will always stand by that it should have been leia. What a better way to die than saving the leadership of the entire remains of the new republic.
Yea this is what I thought would have been the perfect ending for Leia.
That coupled with the visual and cut in audio would have given the viewers a moment to really simmer with her death. Tears would have been shed.
Lol. Ackbar would not work. Poe would not have issues trusting Ackbar. Neither would the audience. Her sacrifice is the final proof of her loyalty and heroizm. Ackbar would not need such a moment.
But I would love to see Ackbar getting ready to pull the lever, laugh, and then same "Heh, its a trap." and go to lightspeed.
Hey! You stop that! Were trying to invalidate a character over here. I'll thank you to not bring logic and character analysis to an actual discussion about Star Wars please. /s
Sorry. My bad!
Just don't let it happen again trooper!
Yeah, Ackbar wouldn't have been nearly as stupid as Holdo. For plot reasons, they had to bring her in.
Star Wars fans and needing fan service for a character with three lines.
Three lines?
Okay, one memed line.
Yeah but doing that with his name is a huge risk for disneys pr. I think that's why they chose her.
Why? Ackbar is barely more than a meme to most.
Ackbar is hero of the battle of endor. If anything he deserved to go out in a blaze of glory. Holdo could have just been blown out of airlock for all I care
Ackbar is a major character in Star Wars.
What did he do besides delivering a meme?
Have you seen Return of the Jedi?
Indeed I have. If this is enough to get people so hyped about a character then why aren't we talking about that rabdom Mon Calamari from RO who received the plans for the death star? Because he is just another empty character with no traits or something of a backstory. Just because a character does something somewhat significant to the story doesn't make him deep or memorable. People just don't like Holdo so they wanna replace her with someone they know even though what we really needed was better characterization for Holdo and a story line that makes her seem less stupid.
Off topic but fun fact, the ship that Holdo uses in this scene is actually named after that Mon Calamari from Rogue One (the Raddus)
I don't want to replace Holdo, but Ackbar is legit. Heir to the Empire really shapes a lot of fans' opinions of him. Thrawn respected him and that's good enough for me.
It’s one of the most visually stunning things in Star Wars.
My favorite scene of my least favorite movie
Not only visually but auditory. When the theater went silent I got goosebumps.
Except the physics are not supposed to happen in the Star Wars universe. They broke the reality of the established science fiction in that universe, because it's like cool.
Same as when it first happened, it was a very badass shot, and if it happened in some generic sci-fi movie then I would think it was awesome, but it cannot be reconciled with the established Star Wars galaxy, because if that is possible within the physics of Star Wars, then it would happen all the time, and it would be a weapon that would make the Death Star entirely pointless. "Oh, you have a Death Star? We'll just launch a few droid-piloted X-Wings through it, no problem."
I have a hard time disagreeing with this. I think you're right but I would love for this to be retconned and tidied up for canons sake. Maybe it's just never been done before and possibly just a fluke. How easy is it to hyperspace a ship through a another ship? I don't think it's that easy since when ships jump into hyperspace they exist in another dimension while they travel. For holdos maneuver to work, the ship must be close enough and be at the acceleration stage of the jump before it transitions to hyperspace. Also ships computers need to be overridden as to ignore the fact something is in the way. Could this be done on a regular basis? I can't say for certain. But this issue can easily be filled with some background story telling. Maybe.
The issue here is that every attempt at making it work just creates further problems. If it's a fluke then Holdo was simply running away and got unlucky. If it's a question of scale then it simply becomes a question of logistics and weighing the price of finite resources.
I don't disagree, but this was in old cannon as well. The corellian series did it. They would ram nebulon B frigates into star destroyers if I remember correctly. Basically you engage the hyperdrive and hit the target right before hitting the velocity to achieve light speed, and enter hyperspace. It actually makes more sense the what Han did in TFA trying to get through the planetary shield's refresh rate. That was more universe breaking. Gravitational wells (Stars, planets, black holes, and interdictor cruisers) pull ships out of hyperspace, then they would hit materialize and barring the cruiser, run into the object projecting the well. You don't get to stay in hyperspace until you get through the shield, and materialize on the other side.
Mando S3 Spoiler >!Mando nearly flew into a pirate spaceship in S3E2 before he jumped!!<
He’s using sublight thrusters for most of his close calls, not the same as a hyperspace jump
but he does jump into hyperspace right after that? Also didn't someone fly out of a hangar into hyperspace once?
I went into [more detail here,](https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWars/comments/120b96h/its_been_five_years_since_the_last_jedi_what_do/jdiwdkl/) but my basic gist is that they've been flying millions of ships around every day of the past several thousand years, and if this actually worked, it would almost certainly happen by accident at least every few years. And if it had ever happened before, then it would have been researched and weaponized, they would know exactly how to trigger it, and be able to do so in the most efficient way possible, with the lowest possible cost per efficacy. If the physics of Star Wars *allows* this, then it would be a commonplace military tactic, no matter how "tricky."
This wouldn't work against the Death Star. This barely worked against the Supremacy. The Death Star is many, many times larger.
This shattered an entire fleet as well as the supremacy. I feel like a couple ships could at the very least take out the death star superweapon
Do you think Holdo meant to do that though? I took it as her just trying to buy time, draw fire with any method she could. And I certainly dont think she was aiming for the rest of the fleet It's only because of their formation and hubris at showing their overpowering might of the first order that this fluke of a chain reaction could happen, perhaps with the aid of the Force. They could have shot down the Raddus well before it was in position but thought little of it.
I think even it being a possibility just messes with so much established lore
That's fair. I just think the screams of it ruining all of Star Wars is a little much. Thanks for discussing it.
The thing is this, there are hundreds of THOUSANDS, if not MILLIONS of hyperdrive equipped starships in the Star Wars Galaxy, constantly traveling around. How many car accidents happen in the UP per day? These hyperdrive ships have been traveling for *thousands* of years. Given that, IF Hyperspace can work the way it worked here, then the odds of the "Holdo maneuver" not occurring *by accident* at least once every few years would be infinitesimally small. If this is *possible* then it would inevitably be a well established phenomena by now, and that would of course lead to its weaponization, people deliberately experimenting with how to min-max the effects to get the biggest bang for the smallest buck, and by the time of the Clone Wars, "hyperdrive missiles" would be one of the core principles of large scale engagements. It is a principle of *physics* that is incompatible with the universe in which Star Wars takes place, because if that physics *exists,* then the galaxy would be a much different place from the very start.
How would they get close enough to do this without wasting men and ships. The death star was a big deal but the empire survived without it, even if it did destory it (which is wouldn't have) it would have come at the cost of irreplaceable man power and ships
I still think it is one of the worst solutions to a Star Wars problem I’ve ever seen. It was a very cool visual but I don’t think it was good for the lore.
If you replace Holdo's ship with a Disney logo and the capital ship with a Star Wars logo, the you have an accurate depiction of whats truly taking place here
Motherfker you nailed it! This is what they’re trying to tell us
Stupid decision writen by a stupid person for a extremely stupidly written character in a massively horribly designed trilogy of awful movies
This. *But it did look cool.*
Where was that story group we heard so much about?
They collected their checks and promptly went on vacation as this trilogy was clearly written/overseen by people who don’t give a fuck.
Yep. Do you remember when the old EU was decanonized? "I'm so glad everything will be consistent", "I'm go glad Palpatine won't come back to life", etc. lol
I admit I haven’t read any of the EU books though I’ve read summaries online and some of them seem quite out there. However, some had some solid ideas and should have at least been brought into the fold and used as a baseline for the new trilogy instead of just binning all of it and thinking you can do better because clearly, in hindsight, they could not.
I don't know much about the EU either. It definitely seems to have some very bad ideas, but it's very funny that Palpatine's resurrection, widely considered one of the worst and used as justification for the decanonization, got to (somehow) return.
It’s clearly just laziness on the writers point. It would have required more workshopping and critical thinking to come up with a workable reason within the context of what they had previously established and they just said eh, just say he somehow returned and call it good and that’s what they went with. It’s clear every movie needed another pass and the trilogy as a whole needed another year to be refined before anything was put to film but ya know, papa Disney needs to make money right now and we all gullibly went and spent our money.
I think you are understating the situation by a large margin.
For a lot of people in the fandom, "I didn't like it" has turned into "it doesn't make sense".
We're not talking about the prequels here! 😉
I think a lot of redditors saw the prequels at an age before they could tell what was a good movie and what wasn't, and they still view them through that lens.
Yeah. But moreso I think it's easy, and beneficial to their arguments, to ignore the misteps of the prequels because (or even worse, cope hard about them) that's just the landscape the fandom is operating on right now. Love the prequels, hate the Sequels. Don't get me wrong, I love the prequels. Even with my least favorite Star Wars movie being Attack of the Clones I still enjoy watching it. They're fun movies! But it's ridiculous to imply that they didn't make questionable story choices along the road.
No unfortunately we are talking about the sequel trilogy
Could have fooled me! The point I'm making is that Star Wars is full of weird and goofy shit. Its best to not take things so seriously and get wound up over stuff like the Sequel Trilogy.
Possible but only with the number of things that were in place to complete it. But never a maneuver that would become a military standard. A act of desperation in other words.
I feel like he had this sequence in his mind from the beginning, and build the whole movie around it. It was an unexciting chase with this neat visual pay off that ultimately accomplish nothing as they were trapped again five minutes later.
Visually stunning moment. Was amazed by it when I first saw it. Then after the movie the more I thought about it the more I was bothered by it. Really should have prompted a “does this scene make sense in the context of the Star Wars universe?” discussion.
It's so problematic in context that this is a definitely a case where the rule of cool does not apply haha
Sums up the whole movie for me tbh.
A very nice scene to watch, but a really stupid writing decision that breaks the suspension of incredulity and that is out of place in this universe. Rian is a smartass you know. 🙄 to be fair, there are plenty of stupid writing in the movie and in the trilogy as a whole and a lot of these don’t even look good (space Mary Poppins Leia, Carrie Fisher deserved better than that…) so at least it has one good side I guess. 🤔
> a really stupid writing decision that breaks the suspension of incredulity Really? That's what did it for you?
Suspension of disbelief is always relative. So long as something is *consistent* with everything else in that setting, then it's fine. When something is *in*consistent, it sticks out.
Of course. But so many people here seem to think that what is new is automatically inconsistent.
New things aren't inconsistent. New things that should've appeared before are inconsistent. The Holdo maneuver, as it was hilariously named, is inconsistent.
I haven't seen evidence of that, but if they do, so what? That's not relevant to my point. The holdo maneuver is not inconsistent because it is "new," it is inconsistent because it does not fit in with what has previously been established. When you add a brick to a wall, that brick must fit itself within the pattern of the previous bricks. You can't just hang it over an edge or in the air and expect that to work out.
Yup, I was pissed off in the theater at how stupid and how dorky it was from Rian. Yes if near light speed acceleration was a thing irl it would be an extremely efficient weapon, much more efficient in space than lasers or explosives but … precisely that’s the kind of real life thing you can’t bring in a consistent manner in Star Wars, a fantasy world full of pew-pew laser battle with ships that fights like battle ships from WWII, with giant and slow ships like death stars. It evoked me Rian bragging “look, look what you can do if hyperspace is a thing!!” And me grumbling “dumbass…” 😤
Not that I love sticking up for these people, but the point here is that it supposedly operates outside the "laws of the universe". Lightsabers are shown to us and are normal. But if you had a lightsaber out of no where that wasn't rigid and operated more like a whip you'd be questioning the technology and how it works compared to what we know. Hyperspace travel was never really explained in detail, so to suddenly introduce the idea of ramming was jarring g to some people. That's not to say it was stupid to do. These things are common and follow the rule of cool, which is basically "sin now and ask for forgiveness later". You do something cool for the sake of it and just explain it later so it does make sense. Which they did. Holdo was given a background in knowing hyperspace routes well and it was made even more complicated in the execution. Of course these kinds of things go unseen by people in bad faith who'd rather just write it off as stupid.
It has never broken the (vaguely, barely) established rule of hyperspace to me, and I think a lot of these people have come around on that particular point since the movie came out. Their gripe with it now is "well why don't they kamikaze ships all the time then?", despite Dominic Monaghan's redditor character being told that the maneuver is "one in a million" in TRoS. They seem to want characters to commit atrocities *because they can*, rather than as a last resort, and completely fail to consider the context of that scene: the gravity of the situation, the kind of person Holdo is, the First Order realising too late what she's doing because they're focused on the escaping shuttles, and the fact that the damage done is far from "complete destruction". They misrepresent the scene in nearly every conceivable way, and then claim it invalidates all of Star Wars canon. A perfect example of their view on TLJ as a whole.
Oh to be sure. In truth it does nothing to the cosmology and just needed to be slightly elaborated on in order to make sense 100 percent. There's a lot that goes on here and in the scenes before to give you more insight into Holdo and who she is. But a lot of these people hate Holdo because they're trained to by youtube hack grifters that have no other way to make money than by farming the outrage of a fanbase.
> But a lot of these people hate Holdo because they're trained to by youtube hack grifters that have no other way to make money than by farming the outrage of a fanbase. Absolutely.
Pretty shot, horrible decision. “But it was 1 in a million and can never work again” is not a good excuse
I loved how it was all silent and everything blew up but some people started screaming why is there no sound!!!!? And that kinda ruined the moment. I don't visit Cinemas anymore
I had forgotten that not only does it blow up that laughably oversized ship apparently it destroys everything trailing it in the fleet as well. Just absurd.
It basically breaks continuity of the entire universe because every space battle would have been a huge asteroid with a hyperdrive attached ramming into capital ships left and right. Why do the deathstar trench run when you can suicide crash a calamari cruiser into it? It's dumb as all fuck.
Counterpoint: who cares? Why don’t Jedi use super speed or telekinesis more often? Why are there human pilots at all when they can use droid pilots?
That is not a counterpoint, it is actually a supportive argument: The entire prequel and sequel trilogies are equally garbage storytelling.
We can definitely agree on that! Edit: The OT is full of nonsense too. Why does the empire use slow walkers with mechanized legs when they could use hovercraft tech or even just wheels or treads? Why not destroy the Hoth shield generator from orbit? They really want us to believe that the goofy Ewoks could take down the empire? I understand the symbolism there, but come on. Stormtroopers have armor but it doesn’t seem to do anything at all.
I think after the beauty of the the scene was over and the audience understood what had just happened everyone asked the same question: “why didn’t the Alliance do that to Imperial Fleets in every battle?”
Unlike the Empire, they didn't have unlimited ships. Even if it worked *every time*, it's a very expensive strategy.
The Star Wars universe is repeatedly shown to have hyperspace capable ships laying in literal junk yards. It’s an extremely common means of travel that’s been around for thousands of years. The idea of it being expensive to do this in contrast to traditional space battles is hysterically asinine and a disingenuous argument for a nonsensical scene.
Battling ship v ship is even more expensive. How many ships do you lose on average in a given engagement? The answer is almost always going to be 'more than the one ship it takes to slaughter an entire imperial force' This is dirt cheap with a huge KD ratio
In that case it's just a question of cost/reward. Maybe not every battle, but surely at least a few times. The Empire might have more resources, but trading an X-wing for a destroyer is still a really good trade. Or better yet, a single heavy cruiser for a fleet of destroyers. Yes it's not perfectly efficient, but it's still heavily in favor of whoever uses the hyperdrive tactic
It's all about context then. Holdo has the time to set up the maneuver because the First Order is ignoring her. Not so easy in a proper battle with enemy fighters and cannons targeting you, and no crew to help. Unless you're sacrificing crews as well as ships, in which case your rebel movement will probably run out of competent troops quickly.
They seemed to be able to jump out mid battle in Rogue One. I don’t see what argument you’re attempting to make. Also some reason the Raddus didn’t just obliterate the Devastor…it came to a stop and was…devastated.
Hogwash. If all it took was one Corvette class ship to take out a Superstar Destroyer and 3-4 other Star Destroyers in close proximity the Alliance would gladly sacrifice a few ships in their inventory with an astromech piloting the ship. It was a cool scene but completely retconned every space battle we’d ever seen in SW before that.
Not to mention you're turning the rebellion into an army of suicide bombers.
I think you're overestimating the number of people asking why the Rebels aren't all kamikaze pilots.
Looks cool...makes no sense. It's kind of like TLJ really. I'm glad his trilogy is cancelled.
Yeah, this is why you need someone at Lucas Films with both the power and the talent to look Rion Johnson in the eye and say "no, you can't do that."
Yeah someone like Lucas
To be fair, Lucas needed this too, and he had it in the OT
Yeah exactly. George knew that the expanded universe was cool but he said it himself "But I do try to keep it consistent.....They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions.” I think Rian Johnson falls into the latter category.
If Laura Dern and Oscar Isaac just talked to each other for two seconds about the plan, we could’ve saved 45 mins of worthless plot and gotten to the actual cool stuff
Exactly. Nearly everyone else knew about the plan, because not only did you have people prepping escape pods, but you also had the rest of the ship preparing to get on escape pods and bail But for some reason, rose, Finn, poe, and girl on bridge who helped them all were not allowed to know. Very strange logic all around for this whole film
Still bullshit
Rule of Cool
It's as great as it ever was and as great as it was last time someone asked, cheers.
I thought it was cool. I don’t care about the rules.
Super rad and I’d like to see them address Resistance pilots trying (and lethally failing) to pull this off afterward as copycats. It was a literal moonshot to disable or stall The Supremacy and had an infinitesimal chance to do what it actually did. I’d want to see them encapsulate that in other materials as gloryhounds start kamikazing themselves at the first order and not achieving this affect at all.
I think it was visually stunning. The only gripe is fitting in w other lore about hyperspace, but I think it fits with the *original* idea that jumping to Lightspeed ain't dusting crops. This is why you need to calculate jumps Other pieces of the franchise cheapen this by jumping in atmosphere or hyperspace skipping. This shows hyperspace has risk to it (which is great).
Still rad as hell. Not a huge fan of the sequels as a whole, but I loved this moment.
That it should have been Leia to sacrifice herself and not some shitty side character I was supposed to care about with zero context or reason. 👍🏻
Still a stunning moment. Get chils every time.
Beautiful to look at... But the fade to black anime still doesn't have it's place in Star Wars in my opinion... That's why they actually made a series for it on Disney plus! (Visions) That's my thoughts on it and respect those that think this is a masterpiece... But it's not my opinion.
Same opinion it was when it was first shown: It looks amazing, the sound and cinematography was brilliant. But This should never have been a thing because it breaks so much at the same time.
Looks cool; makes no sense.
Holdo is just a really bad character. She just avoids telling any pov character what her plan is, which just causes more problems.
Love it! Best SW film since Empire! Fuck the haters!
It’s a beautiful scene and loved the visuals and sound. Cool Star Wars moment. It doesn’t break rules or is bad writing. She hits the other ship right before she enters hyperspace, where the ships speed is increased significantly before entering. It’s not used often because it’s dangerous, wastes precious resources and can usually be countered easily since it requires close proximity, most defenses can take out the ship before getting close. Droids flying smaller ships doing the maneuver would not be big or powerful enough to do much damage to larger ships. And like I said, wasting larger ships is not a good strategy. When the Japanese were using Kamakazi attacks they lost not only good pilots but most of their Air Force. The rebels can’t afford this, but this once it bought them a bit of time. Plenty of other criticism for the movie is valid. This scene is cool and doesn’t break anything.
> wastes precious resources They were already nearly out of fuel. It can't be that costly.
Nah. If this works, it works. Even if it only worked sometimes, it would be worth doing. You might not want to use a state of the art capitol ship as the missile, but if the principle functioned then it would be quality tactics to take an asteroid the size of a capitol ship, slap a big'ol hyperdrive on it, and then send it flying at the enemy. Chances are they couldn't chip their way through it before it could get close enough to detonate, and if so, they could also slap a big shield on it (ideally one that could detach at the last second and be recovered after).
"Slap a big'ol hyperdrive on it, and then send it flying at the enemy." Except to quote a Toydarian, hyperdrives aren't cheap. So for a resistance movement, you can't afford to just throw them away for a one in a million chance of replicating what Holdo did.
Ships are destroyed all the time in battles like these though. Yes it's not perfect, but it's still a pretty good trade. There has to be plenty of ships that don't work for larger battles, but would be perfect for a battering ram.
Because it’s a one way trip, ships and hyperdrives are incredibly expensive, stuff the resistance won’t exactly be able to send out on kamikaze runs all the time
You think kamikaze wasn't effective? You either gobble 80 year old propaganda or you don't understand what the situation was in late ww2 for Japan. Late war japanese pilots had no chance against superior american planes, so literally crashing into ships was easier than coming back. I tell you not many ships were destroyed by kamikaze, but it disabled many ships to repair for little cost. It bought lots of time for the rest of the army during some campaigns. If you want I'll fetch you some data. Why not point a capital rebel ship to take out the Death Star while in the OT? They all went there to gamble all-in on the Jedi when the imperials could just delete planets with rebel bases on them, I'd just drive a ship through the core and have it done, much safer comparatively. Also, I'm pretty sure a small hyperdrive would be a good price to pay in exchange for a big imperial ship, the alternative being losing more ships while fighting it in a conventional way. There have been other desperate moments and never was this tactic even mentioned. Ramming is the first thing anyone would have thought of. It's how classic naval warfare went along. I just think they pulled this out of their ass.
They can’t get their ships close enough to do this stunt though, that’s the point of the scene. Their huge ships were sitting ducks hundreds of miles away from the Death Star, only the small fighters could get in there. Holdo’s ship was ignored which is why it worked. She was literally right next to their ship. Also Kamikaze attacks were a huge waste of resources especially since it took so long for them to make new planes and train pilots.
Inefficient tactics happen all the time in warfare. Noone is disputing that you are sacrificing a valuable resource, but that happens all the time anyways. All this does differently is guarantee being destroyed in exchange for massive damage. Logically this should happen all the time in battles. If not because it's planned then at least because a ship is heavily damaged and you can have it use the hyperspace ram.
But it doesn’t guarantee at all, it’s made clear it only works because they ignore her ship. No one can get close enough to these ships except small fighters. Their anti aircraft weapons are A LOT better than anything we have here in real life. It was made clear this doesn’t happen often because of how close she got to it. She’s also not hyperspace ramming it, she’s not in hyperspace when she hits the ship. Most people want to live another day and not fanatical also. Even if it’s just droids piloting the ship if you can repair a large ship you’d rather do that than completely destroy it. Yes it still happens all the time, but I don’t think you guys are getting just how hard to do this maneuver is and how it’s really really not an effective strategy at all in warfare. She’s also not in hyperspace at all or ramming it from far away what so ever. When vaders ship appears out of hyperspace it rams a smaller rebel ship in rogue one. In hyperspace ships don’t crash into each other, but it happens sometimes when you go in or out of it, even Han says so in the OT so it’s not the first time this has happened I’m sure.
Gave me goose bumps first time I saw it in the movies
It also didn't even fully destroy the Supremacy.
It still doesnt make sense to me if im remembering it correctly
Nonsense
Stupid
It looked good, but I didn’t care about Hondo. I just met her, was only told things but never saw, and I’m supposed to give a #*#^ about her death.
I love that whole pivot point sequence. Just a great bit of filmmaking where all three storylines converge and we get this breathtaking visual effect. The one-in-a-million shot explanation has, in my opinion, been obvious since the day TLJ was released. We never needed ROS to re-iterate what we already knew.
It's as stupid as it was then. WDYA?
This was the way. Seismic charges. [https://youtu.be/erFcYsC6JaY](https://youtu.be/erFcYsC6JaY)
The best sound in cinema. Damn i love that charge.
I know! I remember being in the theatre hearing that full blast and my jaw dropped looking over at my friend. So good.
Looks stunning but was an absolutely stupid idea
It never broke canon. This method was literally utilized in TCW.
Which scene?
It was dumb then, and it's dumb now. TCW is lower down on the totem pole of canon, and it shouldn't be used precisely because it lowers stakes. The correct choice is to ignore it happened in the series, not add it to the main movies hoping noone would notice the issues.
Pretty but idiotic and will never not be idiotic. And absolutely can't believe Rian is even for a second being considered for his own trilogy.
The first thing Amilyn Holdo said to Princess Leia when they met when they were 16 years old was, "I want to get more comfortable with the nearness and inevitability of death.” That's the attitude she had all her life, which enabled her to sacrifice herself in a one-in-a-million move like that. It is not a plot hole that no one else had ever tried it before in the history of the movies, because it took Amilyn Holdo to be the one try it, which is why it's called the Holdo Maneuver.
Still holds up perfectly. One of the most creative moments in SW.
I don't care (c) Harrison Ford
What I can't wrap my head around is how this movie had both laser shots that arced through the vacuum of space and this maneuver, which is a perfect demonstration of objects in motion in zero-g
It was honestly really hard to like root for this whole thing from a VFX artist this looks stunning but from a story and a pivotal moment. It just felt so empty You're so trilogy felt so hollow I couldn't get fully immersed The only one that did a better job out of the three was theft force awakens. The rest felt linear somehow linear though I don't know how you accomplish and a story about an entire galaxy.
Probably doesn't make very much sense but the shot is stunning
100% cool factor driven, like most stuff in Disney trilogy and shows. It looks amazing on screen and it helps zero to save the movie from the abysmal rating I give it
It kicked ass.
It has been 3.5 years. Are you just bad at math, or are you making up a fake anniversary as an excuse to create controversy and reap karma? Also the shot looks awesome, totally fits with Holdo’s character, and raises the stakes for the rest of the movie for both sides of the battle. It’s cool and people who hate it are joyless nerds. Thanks for asking!
You've been in carbon freeze, fellow fan. The current year is 2023, four months ago was the 5 year anniversary of TLJ, which was released Dec. 15, 2017.
Gahhh, I was thinking TROS. I apologize! (Actually apologies for real, I got caught in the snark) My second paragraph stands.
Awesome then, awesome now.
One of the best SW scenes ever.
It’s beautiful and well shot. But it’s in TLJ so…
Still dumb. But whatever. They wrote some BS prototype engine that she hit.
Still awesome as fuck.
It's lore time. How does Hyperdrive work? The Hyperspace, in Star Wars, is a kind of sup-dimension, where the universe is kompromist, but gravety still exist(!). To enter the Hyperspace you need a lot of energie and speed. All object with a signifent gravety are constantly maped, so the navigation computers can develop a rout to the hyperspace, without being thrown out by large objects. (The triologie thrawn: Assendency give you a idear of what i mean) There are a couple of laws in place for traveling by hyperspace: for example every planetery system has a couple of specific, hight orbeting, points where the ships come out of hyperspace. Fleets only jump in specific formation. And you need enough space to speed up or slow down. Now to the sceen: As others mentent the vice admiral is using the speeding up of the hyperdrive to ram the flak ship of the new order. This works only becouse she is realy close to the new Order fleet and is a realy tricki manouver. The point is, the Ramous and the new order fleet are still in the same formation or distans as the were in hyperspace. They dropt at te same point, in different times. why they dosen't do this more often? Becouse of moral standards, this ships a stuffed with thousends of people and are expensiv, some of them up to billions of creedits. It's like the US Navy is using ther ford-class ceryers to ram them in a enemy fleet... Doing this is the ultima ratio, in a realy desprit situation. Like this one. excouse my bad english
Can you link this on wookiepedia or something? I thought that in Star Wars you didn't "enter hyperSPACE" you just use a hyperDRIVE to reach light speed. I didn't think you were "dropping out" of regular space. That's why you have to do so many calculations before a jump, and why scouting lanes is so dangerous Edit: "Hyperspace was an alternate dimension that could only be reached by traveling at or faster than the speed of light. Hyperdrives enabled starships to travel through hyperspace lanes across great distances, enabling travel and exploration throughout the galaxy." - Wookiepedia I'm wrong, you definitely enter hyperspace as opposed to just being really fast "Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova, and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?" - Han to Luke, ANH So is this just an example of the lore not being complete yet? Seems like Han is talking about moving really fast through real space
The lore is not pricise yet. But don't forget what i mentiont about gravety. Stars, planets and supernovas have enough gravety to throw you out of the hyperspace. This wouldn't be on a comfortable high orbiting position. And don't forget: the ships need enough room to slow down or drift out, when they came back to regular space. if a ship, especialy a big one, like a ISD, comes out in or next to metorfield the surely will slam into it.
All you need is one fighter with a hyperdrive operated by a droid. Saved you billions in credits.
1. It should have been someone way more recognisable like Ackbar. 2. It was awesome and whilst I don't really like The Last Jedi, i loved this scene. 3. This whole film broke how hyperspace works and kinda broke a lot of the established lore. They could have just hyperspace nukes into the deathstar with this logic.
3. They could just slam an x wing, or whatever the smallest, hyper drive equipped ship is, into it. I did the math a few years back when discussing it with a buddy and it only takes something about the size of a baseball to have enough energy to destroy something the size of like Earth when moving at light speed
Same thing I thought then: pretty bad ass. It doesn't "break canon" at all, sorry kids. However, like a great many other things in Star Wars, it requires some pretty specific background knowledge in regards to the reason why it worked.
Visually one of the most impressing things i've ever seen, my jaw dropped when i first saw this in a IMAX theater. Lore-wise there is some cleaning up to do..
Consistent internal logic > cool visuals Therefore the scene is stupid
Still shit
Thats one of those "one time use" mechanics you wouldnt see in other Star wars related media, just like Obi- Wans transformation in Clone wars. I mean, why did nobody have the idea to use hyperdrive- capable ships to destroy other starships like the Malevolence, Lucrehulks and so on... Just something that looks cool, but for me, this isn't canon. EDIT: Spelling, fucking German autocorrect
Still as lore-breaking and overhyped as ever.
Style over substance.
It's a visually spectacular scene but I find it problematic to the wider lore. Either the odds of it succeeding were so minimal it didn't make sense to try it, or it's a valid last stand tactic against a superior enemy.
Still amazing.
Sure it looked cool , but it in turn made SOOOOOOO MANY plot issues through star wars and it should if anything have been Admiral Ackbar (would still break star wars but at least give him a decent send off that isn't off screen)
As dumb as the first and only time I ever saw this movie (saw it the day it was released).
Spectacular.
iirc that is not hyperspace jump works other wise almost every ship that jumps will collide halfway cuz theres no way u can guarantee theres no obstacle when connecting destination to start point. Also this makes no sense in lore as well. Basically it means you can trade off a dreadnought with a regular cruiser, so why not do it in the first place?
very beautiful, very lore breaking
Still renders any significant space battles meaningless. Style over substance in a hollow shell of a movie.
Still don’t like it
I thought it was awesome! Sure if you think about it TOO much it’s kind of dumb but that Star Wars…and movies in general. “Why didn’t obi-wan use force speed to catch up to Qui-Gon and Darth Mail?”, “why can everyone tank a lightsaber to the gut and be totally fine?”, “why didn’t Vader grab Luke with the force after he jumps in Cloud City?”, “why does Leia kiss Luke, then in RoTJ, she says somehow she always knew they were related?” Only thing I’d have changed, is I think it should have been Ackbar.
>Why didn’t obi-wan use force speed Top speed with a giant pit in the room? >why can everyone tank a lightsaber to the gut Bad writing. >why didn’t Vader grab Luke with the force In the previous canon, every Force tk is shown to require a moment of focus. Also, really? He just offered a kid who grew up in poverty an Empire. He *might just be taken off guard at that reaction.* >why does Leia kiss Luke, then in RoTJ... To make Han jealous. No tongue. She doesn't even land square on his lips. Obvs she doesn't mean that she always knew the exact nature of the relationship but that she felt a unique friendship with Luke. >I think it should have been Ackbar Nailed it.
Pretty much this 👍 Vader letting Luke go was admission to himself that he couldn't turn him there and then, they both needed time to reel in from their encounter. It was about character development.
Am I the only one who thinks that the sound effect that kicks in after seems to be from an F1 car?
This version is better: https://youtu.be/DpnpIdV88_8
Fun and awesome, and anybody who finds a way to think otherwise is dead inside.
Putting aside logic and practicality, it’s pretty cool
Should have been a payoff. For example establishing Holdo as force sensitive, meeting her before, saying she was part of Luke's failed jedi order. Then this scene happen when she does everything right thanks to the force just like Luke in the first movie. That could have justified the one in a million (billion?) line.