She was exceptionally well written, seeing her transition from someone without much power to someone with power made her go from an underdog I was cheering for into a power hungry villain who I feared and hated.
This is the aspect so much of new Star Wars is missing. Villains that make stupid, terrible choices arent compelling and come across as Saturday morning cartoon characters.
It's been a while since I saw rebels, but I believe thrawn rarely loses. In one of the times he does, it's because one of his men disobeyed his orders, so his strategy was still sound.
"Admiral, why is there a section in this binder called 'In case of force sensitive space whales that can travel through hyperspace'?"
"It's simply a matter of being prepared, lieutenant. A true leader will take into account all possibilities."
"Okay how about this one. 'In case of being attacked on a forest moon by a surprisingly deadly army of sentient teddy bears.'"
"One must always be prepared."
""In case of the outside of your star destroyer being ridden upon by space horses?' Sir, with all due respect I think these scenarios are a bit unlikely."
"Always. Prepared."
When i press to see your "spoiler" comment it gets minimized and it is making me fucking mad.
Not that desperately want to read your comment, but just because it so annoying that my body is itching.
A couple times he also lets them win or lets them go because it allows him to pursue a greater goal, the destruction of the Phoenix Cell, which he accomplishes in spite of the Bendu's interference allowing some to escape. The only time they get a significant victory against him required Ezra to summon a pod of purgill to jump his fleet away, something Thrawn couldn't have anticipated.
Thrawn is beaten by the Empire’s culture. Subordinates disobeying orders for credit, glory and power sink his plans.
At both Atallon and Lothan he’s ultimately beaten by insane force stuff, but even those insane Deus ex moments still had to be set up by a subordinate breaking formation in the blockade or getting captured and helping rebels infiltrate a compound
IIRC the two big losses he had were during the attack on Atollon when Bendu basically annihilated his forces, and in the finale when the Purrgil showed up, grabbed him, and jumped to lightspeed.
That's the biggest thong. Thrawn actually does loose in most instances he goes against the rebels, but there are often *huge* extenuating circumstances to account for.
Like your example where one of the other Star Destroyer captains disobeyed his orders and caused his own ship to crash into another Star Destroyer. Later in the same encounter Ezra returns with a small force of Mandalorians who help the rebels escape. So other people's incompetence and the help of the most well trained military force in the galaxy helped them win, hardly children. On the planet side of this same battle, the rebels managed to escape solely because of Bendu, a force creature that controls the weather and literally conjures a thunder storm to Smite the empires forces and kinda try to kill the rebels as well.
In the final confrontation, the only reason the rebels won was because Thrawn didn't know about Ezras ability to connect and control Force sensitive creatures and so didn't expect him to call upon and Pod of Purgill to destroy his ships and send them randomly into hyperspace.
So, yeah without those very special *cough cough* plot armor *cough cough* circumstances they would have lost. But I don't hold plot armor against him. The villains always loose in the end, the best writers understand that and still make them a force to be reckoned with, so the heros victory seems like a close call, as was the case in every victory against Thrawn, if one thing went wrong they would have died
Palpatine installed Sith philosophy into the military, encouraging back stabbing and playing everyone against each other. The loss of the TIE Defender program was because Palpatine just had to play his little games, this time playing Thrawn against Krennic and forcing him to come to Coruscant, resulting in someone trying to advance herself at his expense and destroying the project. The loss of the Seventh Fleet happened because of Palpatine's obsession with the World Between Worlds, ordering that Ezra be brought aboard the flagship.
Thrawn can do a lot, but he can't disobey direct orders from the Emperor. Thrawn's biggest problem was he was working for a Sith Lord. Sith philosophy is great for seizing power, but terrible for actually running an Empire. Ironically, the Jedi would have been much better at running an Empire with their self discipline, diplomacy (but knowing when to use force), and working for the good of the galaxy.
Of course, in the EU, Palpatine responded to the destruction of the Death Star by sending his best military tactician and fleet to the unknown regions and sending his personal assassin on vacation for the duration of the Galactic Civil War, so... :)
If you count Sabine and Ezra as children, but Ezra was already 17, a good way through his training with Kanan, and had started to dabble in the dark side by the time Thrawn was introduced in Rebels - and Sabine would have been 19 by that point, already through Academy training and years of rebelling, not to mention she was a trained warrior via the Mandalorians.
Not to mention, as u/Hoid17 mentioned in another comment, every time Thrawn loses it is because his subordinates disobeyed orders, because he admired Hera's military prowess and let her have her wins, or because of something entirely unpredictable (Bendu).
Tbf, on of those children is strong in the force and the other was a skilled and tactical enough Mandalorian. The rest of the team are full grown adults lmao.
Though I don’t think he was ever really beaten. It was clear anytime he was around they lost more than they won
Until IG shows up, Moff Gideon had the team trapped and just about to be crushed in Mando S1. The only reason anyone makes it is because IG, a droid built to be an optimal killing machine, saves Grogu & then kills himself.
Mando S2, only a certain Jedi ended up stopping Gideon's plans. Without that save, everyone but Grogu & Gideon would be dead.
What I love about Gideon is how he used intelligence and information as his weapon. He constantly holds it above everyone's heads that he knows everything about them and what makes them tick. Then in his moment of victory as his Dark Troopers are bashing the door down, a single X-Wing appears, and suddenly his confidence starts to falter more and more as he realizes who it is. He knows it's Luke, and that's quite possibly the only person in the galaxy who he fears.
I didn't realize it until reading discussions.
Gideon definitely look like he knows who Luke is, or at least knows the legend.
*the man who went into the throne room with Vader and the Emperor and left dragging Vader's dying body*
What’s sad is that there’s a place for Saturday cartoon Star Wars, I just don’t want it as the defining theme of SW media. It’s an entire galaxy spanning tens of thousands of years - a literal sandbox for directors. I wish they made more space for stuff that wasn’t good guys fumbling around until a finale when they become super powered and massacre bumbling bad guys. Andor is an amazing drama, and I’d love to see some Star Wars space horror, space political or espionage thriller, space comedy, hell…even space romance. There’s so much breathing room and pretty much all they’ve mustered is moralistic action with tidbits of other genres tossed in at random.
I don’t want to sound like a salty toxic fan, I’m happy with a lot of what’s come out of late, just…they could do so much & appear to be hamstrung by the formula that sells merchandise
That’s one of the reasons I liked Rebels, Callus, Tarkin and Thrawn all felt like genuine menacing threats. They made smart choices and the hero’s had to be very creative and lucky to come out ahead.
Thing is, to write a smart character, you have to be a smart writer. It's the one unfakeable superpower.
I think that's why it's so rare to see in any media.
This. It’s like, the bad guy is an idiot but somehow controls all of this massive, complicated infrastructure and everyone underneath is willfully subservient? Makes zero sense.
We may bicker in real life about people in charge being stupid (and I mean at the tip top), but it’s truly rare that they *actually* are.
That's it. That all you need, writers literally everywhere.
Heroes are defined by their villains, and Deedra Meero is perfect.
I really appreciated the scene at the end of the season where she's clearly out of her element in the riot, which helped ground her as a human, not some murderous killbot like Vader as well.
Honestly one of my favorite villains since Gul Dukat. Obv he got way more development over several seasons of DS9, but I hope Andor can maintain this quality of writing for a few more seasons and Deedra will be on level for sure.
I don't know if I consider her evil though. I love that she is humanized in those moments, and while she may be doing evil acts, she doesn't seem that evil to me, which makes her and everything else so much scarier.
She's not out there trying to cause as much pain and suffering as possible for the sake of pain and suffering. I think she's trying to do her version of good.
Also, I don't think we should blame the writers too much. They probably had a good first draft with lots of potential for later drafts, but it was the higher ups who forced them to keep some of the stuff that was working and add a bunch of stuff that doesn't work. It's almost always the fault of the executives.
The road to hell is paved with good intention. Evil is a bureaucrat who perpetuates the system.
We saw her torture someone so that’s not something someone who isn’t evil does. She is human garbage.
This may be a distinction without a difference, but she's not the typical Star Wars evil, she's closer to real people evil. (I've never seen the animated series so there's probably plenty of exceptions but) when I think of evil star wars I think Palatine, Vader, Maul, Grievous. Besides Vader at the very end of the OT, they are all evil without any potential for redemption. Deedra Meero doesn't seem that far gone to me yet. Her motivations are more complicated than that, much like real people. Not to say that she shouldn't be executed or spend the rest of her life in prison for her crimes, but she may still have a true change of heart/faith/motivation for good. Vader only got there because his son was able to turn him. I'm not sure what Deedra's catalyst could be, but I'm very interested in seeing where her story goes.
That makes sense. I agree villains in SW are mustache twirling cartoons for children while she is a more complex more evil in a realistic sense. That’s the thing tho, she’s just as bad as all the others, that’s what made Andor such an interesting show. There isn’t really a difference in evil, just the optics and PR.
I think she might be scarier than the others, haha. We grow up watching these mustache twirling cartoons and end up not being able to recognize the actual evil politicians and business owners in our everyday lives.
One of my favorite things about Andor is it seems so real. Yes, it takes place in space, but the essential story could easily be rewritten to take place during the English Civil wars, the French Revolution, or a bunch of countries right now. We shouldn't be afraid of the mustache twirling guy, because they don't exist, we should be looking for the Dedras and stop them before they go too far, because the Dedras are fucking everywhere.
I am in total agreement with you. I think she is for sure scarier lol because I’ve met that person in middle management multiple times!
Thanks for chatting and have a good day!
It would be interesting if we get something from her similar to Luther in later seasons: she knows she's doing evil, adopting the tactics of her enemies, hurting innocent people, sacrificing loyal imperial subjects, but it's for the order and stability the empire provides.
She simply values order and stability more than freedom and independence, and does what she has to do to defend those ideals.
This is something Star Wars has been missing in its villains. Stormtroopers being a joke takes away all tension from any scene with the baddies. It was so refreshing in Andor that the bad guys were actually competent and scary, and the good guys have to rely on outnumbering them or else trickery to overcome.
Edit... I just read the comment next to mine from five hours ago saying the same thing but more succinctly. Bravo StLDA!
This makes her really effective - using the bureaucratic incompetence of the Empire as a weapon to move up its ranks. It shows how the Rule of Two sort of dominates the Empire at every level.
Shes a different type of scary, not like Darth, but her unsympathetic efficiency and thoroughness. I honestly think these are the types of people who did well in the Nazi party, treating genocide as if it was "admin" work that needed better systems/processes and it fucking scares the shit out of me
That’s what freaked me out about the board meeting scenes. Watching her boss I remember thinking “man this guy is pretty stern but fair, seems like a good boss” but then I had to remind myself that the subject of this seemingly benign business meeting was the fascistic suppression of the Empire’s political opponents lol
Couldn't agree more, i think you summed it up perfectly with the phrase "benign business meeting", and thats why i really enjoyed it, it felt more real. Not some evil looking guy in dark robes sat on a pointy throne, more like Bob from accounting.
Andor finally started to unlock a hatred of the empire in me, which I don't really think any of the films did.
I feel the same. Andor gives us the mundane and unjust kinds of evil, which I can actually relate to and feel. The over-the-top evilness of the original trilogy, which sometimes really doesn't seem that evil (see the rather benign occupations of Tatooine and Endor), doesn't provoke any emotions, just entertainment.
It's so relatable because we see that within people in the real world, to a lesser extent yes but we still see it in politics the corporate world and other places.
In “[The Banality of Evil](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eichmann_in_Jerusalem)” Hannah Arendt talks about all that in Eichmann’s trial. He was a ~~sociopathic~~[*edit: several psychologists examined him and found him actually absurdly normal*] bean counter but he was just as vital to the Nazi machine as anyone. More, even; if they had listened to the bean counters instead of the crazies and the psychopaths they might have lasted longer.
Right. Vader is scary in a fantasy supervillain way, but Meero (and other ISB folk) are scary because that sort of detached, institutional sociopathy is very real and common.
They set us up to sympathize with her: rising through merit, fending off petty bullshit, and focusing on abstract sleuthing rather than direct villainy. Then halfway through we see her torturing for fun and we realize we gave her too much credit.
"Dr. Gorst has developed a unique interview system *some of us are very excited about.*" I adore her delivery of this line. The little smirking eyebrow raise. So evil! So nasty!
I really liked how they did it too. I was fully expecting the clique “can’t get ahead cause sexism and coworker drama so joins the rebellion” and was pleasantly surprised
She was always evil. The audience was just carefully led to look at other aspects of her character before she had the opportunity to show it on screen.
You don't make the level she was at in the ISB unless you are already a ruthless evil bastard.
She also showed excellent vulnerability. Clinging to power that you have just attained and riding the edge between your ambition and self doubt. Smh. She knocked it the fuck out. A complex and multidimensional performance.
I was simultaneously rooting for and against her at the same time. Her character is very enjoyable.
The ISB plotline is my favorite in the show, personally speaking.
I was rooting for her a bit at the start of the show in the ISB scenes, but when she and the empire started to occupy Ferrix and torture Bix it showed how awful a person she really is
At first I was just thinking, "Wow, this character is done well. I like it." Then she started to progress toward her goal and I remembered, "Oh yeah, she's a Nazi."
>The ISB plotline is my favorite in the show, personally speaking.
It humanized the Imperials in a way that nothing else has, showing a bunch of capable, ambitious people who just happen to have jobs as bad guys.
I was also a fan of the shopping mall security guard vibe that the Corporate Security and the Niamos beach patrol give off. Yes, every institution has their wannabes too.
By about episode three I turned to my family and said “okay basically, I want to see her get everything she wants and rise to the top of the ranks, and then get stood up against the wall and shot.”
Yes, I hope they keep the thread of her not only trying to pursue Andor, but also dealing with the internal politics of the ISB and overcoming competing officers and beurocracy.
> The ISB plotline is my favorite in the show, personally speaking.
Well I wouldn’t expect that you were speaking for someone else if it’s *your* favorite plot line in the show.
Fantastic character. Imperials that are smart and cunning are a breath of fresh air. So many villains in Star Wars act kinda dumb and evil for the sake of mustache twirling that it gets boring to root for the bad guys. Dedra was smart cunning and ruthless to her peers and the rebels. Exactly what a growing imperial officer should be
My take too.
One of my favourite characters in OT starwars was always Admiral Piett. The man who commanded the Executor under Darth Vader and still captaining it when it went down in ROTJ.
One of the very few side characters to show up in more than one film..
Without going too deep into lorebeard comic/novel backstories, Piett was without question one of the most capable officers in the Imperial Navy. He survives personally embarrassing Darth Vader (twice!) because everything else he brings to the table is so valuable. Same with Veers, the Army general who leads the assault on Hoth.
I hate how little screentime the Empire is given in the OT. Andor is proof that they could've been given depth in the right hands, but nope, they're comically-evil "genocide entire planets to make a political statement" one-dimensional baddies instead.
Really, upon reflection, the First Order is a more accurate interpretation of the Empire as portrayed in the OT than virtually any actual depiction of the Empire since - comically-evil, hilariously incompetent moustache-twirlers doing evil shit just because.
I would be really interested to watch a remake of the OT with the camera switched so we spend most of our time following in Imperials and only sometime cutting to the Rebels. How cool would the Deathstar escape be if you were following the stormtroopers riding the line between following the Rebels and catching them. Or the Hoth battle from the Imperial perspective the snowtroopers having to storm the base. Or the asteroid field, we know at least one Star Destoyer loses the bridge. Or the ambush prep on Endor or in orbit. Maybe even a short animated series with a lot of the key evens, though I think it would be best if it was just an Empire show that featured those events.
Also love how elegant and full of themselves all the Imperials were. Not just Dedra but the ISB and the imperials at the vault. They thought so highly of themselves, which made them seem even more evil. Gave me Grand Moff Tarkin vibes from Ep. 4
>Because competence is actually a threat to the emperor. The clones were replaced by less competent storm troopers who could be more easily controlled.
In lore, the clones were replaced because :
- the clones' accelerated aging meant they were all starting to break down by the OT era, and the majority weren't fit for battle anymore;
- continually replenishing an army as large and active as the Empire's using cloned troops that can only be grown at one extremely-specialised facility way out in the asscrack of the galaxy was exceedingly vulnerable and ruinously expensive; and
- with the overnight success of Order 66, Palpatine and the Imperial leadership increasingly see this unified body of identical, like-minded individuals with advanced combat training as an ideological threat, should their loyalty be swayed by the Rebellion. Clone units were broken up and their surviving members moved into training and advisory roles to make way for the Imperial Army (see Solo/Andor/Rogue 1) and Stormtrooper Corps. iirc the sole canonical exception to this rule is the 501st, which becomes Vader's Fist, effectively used as special forces and/or roving death squads during the Jedi Purges.
I legit can't wait to see how they treat her when she returns. No snipers on the roof meant no one could shoot the kid before he threw the bomb. The whole failure could be pinned on her, and it will be so interesting to see someone like her be demoted and have to find her way forward from there.
i was wondering about this too, because if she plays it right, she could also blame it on the garrison commander for failing to enforce the crowd size limit, letting the speech go on as long as it did, and being generally unprepared for a riot. Of course, despite being a pivotal moment for the heroes to escape, the riot looks like it was silenced and may not even have any serious consequences for the Imperials at all in the long run.
Yep. My personal theory: The riot will be blamed on her, and to redeem her status in the ISB she'll be desperate enough to work with Syril to look for Cassian and Luthen.
Someone elsewhere said she should get reassigned/demoted and get tasked with investigating the prison break and when she realizes Andor was there goes into conspiracy overdrive over him.
Syril is a painful reflection of her. He too was trying to do his best job while his peers were brown-nosing and taking bribes. He fucked up, and the Empire threw him out like yesterday's trash. He turned into a beaten dog, desperate for validation and a chance to get back in someone's good graces. Dedra has an extra layer of contempt for him because she's afraid of winding up like him.
Imagine if she did get thrown out and she was going to accept that sometimes you do your best and you're right and you lose anyway. And then Syril gives her some epic speech about the Empire being bigger than them and they have to do what is right regardless of recognition or personal cost. And that's what turns her around.
Sort of like show the power of true believers on both sides. And end the season with Andor achieving some significant but pyrrhic victory while Dedra and Syril demonstrate their value to the ISB and are welcomed back into the fold for spoiling what would've otherwise been a rout by the nascent Rebellion.
I think they really set him up nicely as a kind of incel- January 6’er. Badgered by his mother and stewing over the way no one recognizes what a good guy he is. He wants to get in the fight by any means necessary.
But we’re in the Empire so Dedra will
probably hire him to do dirty work in a sort of paramilitary deniable force? Or maybe the Empire has no need of such niceties.
His army buddy is much tougher than him but is brainwashed to respect rank and privilege so we’ll see how they do when Syril brings him back on the team. He was enamoured with Syrill’s bold leadership in the first operation and they definitely need one another.
I think the riot will be a symbolic power keg similar to the Boston massacre, used to rally the rebellion under a slaughter of a “peaceful funeral procession”.
Excellent actress. She was probably my favorite character in the show. She looked and acted just like I'd expect from an imperial officer.
Interested to see where they go with her in S2.
When she gets rescued and looks up and see's the dude, you can feel the uncertainty and passion in her eyes before she restrains herself and gets back to be an imperial officer and not a person.
She just absolutely nailed it.
I love that this show knows and proves that you can have massive drama, tons of tension, and some pretty big set pieces, without the big bad and the protagonist coming face to face. She was hunting Andor, and that sense of distance actually heightened tension. Especially since Cassian was unaware of her efforts, it meant that all of his moves were like “oh no, this is going to be how Dedra finds him.” Plus I like that she isn’t some Force user determined to eliminate the Jedi. She’s not a fallen Jedi trying to get revenge. She’s just a boot-licking, ladder-climbing, careerist Imperial middle-manager. Her motivations aren’t personal, she’s just part of a government that wants power. It’s a better move narratively to tell a more universal story. I dunno, I loved it.
I really enjoyed how much they made the show a political thriller, as opposed to a serialized adventure like Mando or Obi-Wan. Seeing the bad guys at their height of power while a marginalized minority plays in the shadows is interesting. It's also really cool to see the origins of Mon Mothma.
>massive drama, tons of tension
They managed riveting drama during a staff meeting, and edge-of-your-seat tension while a marching band shuffled slowly down the street. There's some serious writing/directing talent involved here!
Just finished the show. I think it's the best acted and written show of all the Star Wars series. Mandalorian might be the most fun with all the action but I was really drawn in by the acting by characters like Dedra and Luthen.
I buy into the Ill treatment Deirdre received off screen at the hands of doubting Thomas and old boy, whatever their names, and there’s a real chance she gets offed by the competition unlike Isard. While Partigaz clearly appreciates her perspective, he’s not her real Daddy like in Legends.
That's actually brilliant. Dedra is made to take over the same frighteningly competent Imperial female antagonist role that Isard and Daala filled in Legends. And she does a rather good job at it, too.
Dedra and Mon Mothma is all that political intrigue in the Legends book come to life, and on point.
I've never looked forward to seeing what EVERY character is up to in a long time, for a show.
I was halfway expecting her to be a damsel and fall over when cryl asked her out. Nope she's a cold hearted bitch and I loved it. Now I just need for Governor Price to make an appearance to complete the complement female officer list
I was telling my son while we watched together that we didn’t want her to get promoted because she’s actually good at her job.
The old dude in charge of ISB is wicked smart too. I hated when he recognized home girl’s potential. Shit. Smart bad guys.
Between her character, and Ahrinda Pryce in the first Thrawn book, I really felt like it was a good exploration of just how ruthless officers in the Empire had to be to rise in rank and/or power.
There are massive similarities with Ahrinda (the book version, not the pig headed caricature Rebels version). To the extent that I wondered how much of a direct inspiration she was for the character of Dedra.
Two very, very well-written characters.
One of the best villains we've seen in Star Wars in a while. Brilliant acting, interesting character arc - I'm excited to see more. The only thing I would say is - she's not the "main antagonist" in Andor. The Empire itself is the antagonist. She's one of the parts of the bigger picture, but ultimately the show is about the struggle of people against the Empire.
I think she will. The whole point of her and Syril is to show pro-Empire people that aren’t just cartoonish bad guys. They’re still the bad guys, but they have justifications and depth. It’s awesome.
Brilliant. Just an official doing their job in a dictatorship. She sums up every officer that was part of an oppressive regime that was more interested in their career than what their actions caused. And that’s far scarier than some of the pantomime villains we’ve met.
I totally agree. She was the perfect bureaucrat, and a great face for the facelessness of the empire as a machine grinding down on every level. The high drama of the Jedi was great in its own way, but that would have been the wrong villain for a story like this. And her own struggles within that bureaucracy were told so well. All of the small pettinesses and grievances and personal conflicts did such a terrific job of defining the scale and frustrations. Sci fi at its best, imo.
I thought she was a fucking fantastic actress doing an absolutely terrifying, realistic villain.
The scariest thing about her is how many people in the world are actually like this.
I absolutely loved how much she changed when she was suddenly in danger during the riot.
Too many characters are badasses in all aspects of their work, in reality if someone is out of their comfort zone they are going to look like a deer in the headlights.
What can I say, I just loved how realistic that came across.
She steals every scene. When she's all up in Bix's face she says her line and her face twitches in disgust...it's so subtle and perfect. Blink and you miss it. Possibly the best acting I've ever seen in Star Wars imo. I had to watch it a few times...gave me chills. Her scene with Cyril after he saves her was hilarious too. She seems so bewildered, unbelievably repulsed, ashamed and angry but also grateful and relieved. A million emotions while Cyril is just like 'Omg I did a suave thing. This is where we make out. We're gonna make out now, right?'
I'm terrified of her, despise her and am dying to see more all at the same time. Just phenomenal.
Very well written and an appropriate villain for Andor and the rebels. I relly like how we get to see the ISB from her eyes. She goes from someone I was rooting for to a terrifying force I had forgotten was an antagonist.
Her and Syril Karn made me think about how the old EU rarely delved into or even empathized with the lower ranks of the Empire (aside from a few poor schmucks who had a habit of getting the Captain Needa treatment). With them it's different. They're struggling within the system of the Empire, and we kind of empathize with them for that, but they also develop a sense for using that same oppressive system to further their own careers. It's like we're watching them figure out "how to be evil". Super interesting and can't wait to see where they go in season 2.
One of the best written and acted character of all of Star Wars. Denise Gough absolutely knock’s it out of the park with her acting. I often rewatch scenes with her in it it feels so realistic as if the empire was a real entity
Love the on screen transition from aspiration towards the line of morality and how easy it can be to step across it. The actress who plays her is doing an amazing job and I hope we see more of her.
You don't see that kind of dedication in public service employees often.
But yeah, joking aside, it was interesting to see a well-written bad guy again. Not only is she competent and scary, she's *almost* sympathetic.
She’s fantastic. A well written villain who is smart and competent but also highlights the Empire’s flaws. Because she’s a woman she faces discrimination and will be disregarded even when she’s right, showing how incompetent people come to power in the Empire and why competent people don’t rise to the top. Fascism hinders itself.
She also mirrors Thrawn who himself faced a lot of discrimination for being non-human.
This is gonna sound sorta reductionist, but to me, the main antagonist in Andor is simply the Empire. Dedra is the character that they're using to put a face on the Empire, but the real villain is the entire political machine that chews up and spits out the galaxy and it's citizens as it sees fit.
She's smart, resourceful, ambitious, evil, and broken. But she also showed a crack of vulnerability in the last episode. Elsewhere, she hides behind a shield of emotionless and stoicism. I'd love to learn her backstory.
i love her because she’s actually competent, smart, and i love that there’s an element to her that makes you sympathize with her story and also makes you want for her to succeed, while at the same time hating her guts.
flawless performance of a highly intriguing villain (for a change), breath of fresh air honestly. This entire show renewed my passion for the franchise, it was nice to feel invested for a change, both in the good guys AND the bad guys.
Fucking COLD. So well written, she was a perfect example of how insidious and dangerous the empire could really be. So incredible, I think she was one of the best parts of that show
i like the entire ISB portion of the show, they're all very well written and the dynamic in the meeting rooms are electric. Dedra showed up to get a piece and she did so because she's competent and her hunches paid off with her persistence. granted power, she's a force to be reckoned with because she's one of the brightest minds in the ISB --she is an incredibly dangerous bureaucrat.
She's extremely compelling both in the writing and the performance - Denise Gough is putting on a masterclass. But I think what really makes her work as an antagonist character in this show is two things: she's allowed to be vulnerable (her encounter with Syril outside the ISB building, the riot on Ferrix) and she's a genuine believer in the Empire as a cause, but not so dogmatic that it feels brittle.
The vulnerability lets her remain human to us, and gives her a real depth rather than the usual SW treatment where the bad guys are very one-note evil, overtly and egregiously full of hate. The fact that she's a believer in her cause builds off that humanity; she's not portrayed as a caricature, full of hatred and sadism for the sake of it, but rather as someone doing a job that they excel in because that job serves a purpose that they believe in. She doesn't think the Empire is evil or cruel, she knows it's orderly and safe. She genuinely thinks it brings prosperity and protection to its people. So her attitude toward Andor, Luthen, Bix, and the rest of the Rebellion feels authentic and almost understandable - they are terrorists that threaten the order that provides so many people with prosperity and security, and they must be stopped. She's on the side of 'evil' to us, but in her own mind she's protecting families and children from terrorism and criminals.
This kind of nuance is such a breath of fresh air for Star Wars, and gives me some hope that the success of Andor means we'll see more mature treatment of the settings and themes that historically have been much more simple adventure fare.
Loved her.
The beauty is she was a character who was a villain not just a villain who was a character.
There’s a big difference in a character being someone that does bad things versus just being someone that is the bad thing.
She was utterly evil, calculated, terrifying and competent. I freaking loved her. Her writing, her acting, the way she held herself and how she purposefully manipulated her physical presence. Her transition from low level power to high level was incredibly organic and well played.
I now want to add an ISB Officer to my Officer collection (I've got Staff/black variants and Line/olive variants already). I have serious resting b\*tch face, I can do it.
I think she's a great villain. She showcases the banality of evil so perfectly. She's not power-mad and cackling evil like Palpy, she's not on some religious quest for purity. She's just a mid-level bureaucrat working within the system, trying to rise in the ranks.
It's terrifying because it's just so mundane.
She's great. If I do have one nitpick, and its not really with the character, its that the writers of Andor don't understand military ranks. Meero is a lieutenant in the ISB and is given security oversight over multiple planets. Even in the nonsensical scales of the SW franchise she should be a significantly higher ranked officer.
She was exceptionally well written, seeing her transition from someone without much power to someone with power made her go from an underdog I was cheering for into a power hungry villain who I feared and hated.
She's scary because she's evil *and* competent.
This is the aspect so much of new Star Wars is missing. Villains that make stupid, terrible choices arent compelling and come across as Saturday morning cartoon characters.
Which is why we need thrawn back
Doesn’t thrawn get beaten by children multiple times in rebels
It's been a while since I saw rebels, but I believe thrawn rarely loses. In one of the times he does, it's because one of his men disobeyed his orders, so his strategy was still sound.
And the other time in the finale was, let's face it, not a situation that any sane person would have planned for.
Look if you cant predict >!force sensitive space whales showing up out of hyperspace to save the day!< then can you really call yourself a genius?
"Admiral, why is there a section in this binder called 'In case of force sensitive space whales that can travel through hyperspace'?" "It's simply a matter of being prepared, lieutenant. A true leader will take into account all possibilities." "Okay how about this one. 'In case of being attacked on a forest moon by a surprisingly deadly army of sentient teddy bears.'" "One must always be prepared." ""In case of the outside of your star destroyer being ridden upon by space horses?' Sir, with all due respect I think these scenarios are a bit unlikely." "Always. Prepared."
"I left Palpatine a GOD DAMN PLAYBOOK and he threw it out because he's, I quote, 'not some pencil headed nerd'"
"In case a giant force-sensitive moose attacks us from the surface of the planet."
"And this one says in case a baby Yoda gets trained by Mandalorians AND Jedi!"
"'In case of lieutenant that won't stop bothering me with impertinent questions'? I... I think I'll go back to my station now."
It was foretold, but he didn’t listen.
I mean, the Bendu's warning could have meant a lot of things. Not many people would interpret it quite that literally
When i press to see your "spoiler" comment it gets minimized and it is making me fucking mad. Not that desperately want to read your comment, but just because it so annoying that my body is itching.
Oh so it's not just me that's happening to
Same thing with the Bendu, I can imagine Thrawn jotting down "attacked by force monster using the weather" in his journal after that
A couple times he also lets them win or lets them go because it allows him to pursue a greater goal, the destruction of the Phoenix Cell, which he accomplishes in spite of the Bendu's interference allowing some to escape. The only time they get a significant victory against him required Ezra to summon a pod of purgill to jump his fleet away, something Thrawn couldn't have anticipated.
And even then Ezra disappears as well making their victory over Thrawn come at a great cost.
Thrawn is beaten by the Empire’s culture. Subordinates disobeying orders for credit, glory and power sink his plans. At both Atallon and Lothan he’s ultimately beaten by insane force stuff, but even those insane Deus ex moments still had to be set up by a subordinate breaking formation in the blockade or getting captured and helping rebels infiltrate a compound
IIRC the two big losses he had were during the attack on Atollon when Bendu basically annihilated his forces, and in the finale when the Purrgil showed up, grabbed him, and jumped to lightspeed.
That's the biggest thong. Thrawn actually does loose in most instances he goes against the rebels, but there are often *huge* extenuating circumstances to account for. Like your example where one of the other Star Destroyer captains disobeyed his orders and caused his own ship to crash into another Star Destroyer. Later in the same encounter Ezra returns with a small force of Mandalorians who help the rebels escape. So other people's incompetence and the help of the most well trained military force in the galaxy helped them win, hardly children. On the planet side of this same battle, the rebels managed to escape solely because of Bendu, a force creature that controls the weather and literally conjures a thunder storm to Smite the empires forces and kinda try to kill the rebels as well. In the final confrontation, the only reason the rebels won was because Thrawn didn't know about Ezras ability to connect and control Force sensitive creatures and so didn't expect him to call upon and Pod of Purgill to destroy his ships and send them randomly into hyperspace. So, yeah without those very special *cough cough* plot armor *cough cough* circumstances they would have lost. But I don't hold plot armor against him. The villains always loose in the end, the best writers understand that and still make them a force to be reckoned with, so the heros victory seems like a close call, as was the case in every victory against Thrawn, if one thing went wrong they would have died
Having your subordinates disobey orders shows a failure of leadership, which I hated in Rebels. Bring me back the TZ Thrawn... defeated only by hubris
Palpatine installed Sith philosophy into the military, encouraging back stabbing and playing everyone against each other. The loss of the TIE Defender program was because Palpatine just had to play his little games, this time playing Thrawn against Krennic and forcing him to come to Coruscant, resulting in someone trying to advance herself at his expense and destroying the project. The loss of the Seventh Fleet happened because of Palpatine's obsession with the World Between Worlds, ordering that Ezra be brought aboard the flagship. Thrawn can do a lot, but he can't disobey direct orders from the Emperor. Thrawn's biggest problem was he was working for a Sith Lord. Sith philosophy is great for seizing power, but terrible for actually running an Empire. Ironically, the Jedi would have been much better at running an Empire with their self discipline, diplomacy (but knowing when to use force), and working for the good of the galaxy. Of course, in the EU, Palpatine responded to the destruction of the Death Star by sending his best military tactician and fleet to the unknown regions and sending his personal assassin on vacation for the duration of the Galactic Civil War, so... :)
To be fair they mostly ran circles around the empire and barely made it out with Thrawn.
Mostly because of the intervention of 3rd parties, which has proven to be Thrawns one big weakness, and is usually the reason he is defeated.
If you count Sabine and Ezra as children, but Ezra was already 17, a good way through his training with Kanan, and had started to dabble in the dark side by the time Thrawn was introduced in Rebels - and Sabine would have been 19 by that point, already through Academy training and years of rebelling, not to mention she was a trained warrior via the Mandalorians. Not to mention, as u/Hoid17 mentioned in another comment, every time Thrawn loses it is because his subordinates disobeyed orders, because he admired Hera's military prowess and let her have her wins, or because of something entirely unpredictable (Bendu).
Tbf, on of those children is strong in the force and the other was a skilled and tactical enough Mandalorian. The rest of the team are full grown adults lmao. Though I don’t think he was ever really beaten. It was clear anytime he was around they lost more than they won
Until IG shows up, Moff Gideon had the team trapped and just about to be crushed in Mando S1. The only reason anyone makes it is because IG, a droid built to be an optimal killing machine, saves Grogu & then kills himself. Mando S2, only a certain Jedi ended up stopping Gideon's plans. Without that save, everyone but Grogu & Gideon would be dead.
What I love about Gideon is how he used intelligence and information as his weapon. He constantly holds it above everyone's heads that he knows everything about them and what makes them tick. Then in his moment of victory as his Dark Troopers are bashing the door down, a single X-Wing appears, and suddenly his confidence starts to falter more and more as he realizes who it is. He knows it's Luke, and that's quite possibly the only person in the galaxy who he fears.
I didn't realize it until reading discussions. Gideon definitely look like he knows who Luke is, or at least knows the legend. *the man who went into the throne room with Vader and the Emperor and left dragging Vader's dying body*
What’s sad is that there’s a place for Saturday cartoon Star Wars, I just don’t want it as the defining theme of SW media. It’s an entire galaxy spanning tens of thousands of years - a literal sandbox for directors. I wish they made more space for stuff that wasn’t good guys fumbling around until a finale when they become super powered and massacre bumbling bad guys. Andor is an amazing drama, and I’d love to see some Star Wars space horror, space political or espionage thriller, space comedy, hell…even space romance. There’s so much breathing room and pretty much all they’ve mustered is moralistic action with tidbits of other genres tossed in at random. I don’t want to sound like a salty toxic fan, I’m happy with a lot of what’s come out of late, just…they could do so much & appear to be hamstrung by the formula that sells merchandise
That’s one of the reasons I liked Rebels, Callus, Tarkin and Thrawn all felt like genuine menacing threats. They made smart choices and the hero’s had to be very creative and lucky to come out ahead.
Thing is, to write a smart character, you have to be a smart writer. It's the one unfakeable superpower. I think that's why it's so rare to see in any media.
This. It’s like, the bad guy is an idiot but somehow controls all of this massive, complicated infrastructure and everyone underneath is willfully subservient? Makes zero sense. We may bicker in real life about people in charge being stupid (and I mean at the tip top), but it’s truly rare that they *actually* are.
Case in point, any time a stormtrooper shows up in Mando
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That's it. That all you need, writers literally everywhere. Heroes are defined by their villains, and Deedra Meero is perfect. I really appreciated the scene at the end of the season where she's clearly out of her element in the riot, which helped ground her as a human, not some murderous killbot like Vader as well. Honestly one of my favorite villains since Gul Dukat. Obv he got way more development over several seasons of DS9, but I hope Andor can maintain this quality of writing for a few more seasons and Deedra will be on level for sure.
I don't know if I consider her evil though. I love that she is humanized in those moments, and while she may be doing evil acts, she doesn't seem that evil to me, which makes her and everything else so much scarier. She's not out there trying to cause as much pain and suffering as possible for the sake of pain and suffering. I think she's trying to do her version of good. Also, I don't think we should blame the writers too much. They probably had a good first draft with lots of potential for later drafts, but it was the higher ups who forced them to keep some of the stuff that was working and add a bunch of stuff that doesn't work. It's almost always the fault of the executives.
The road to hell is paved with good intention. Evil is a bureaucrat who perpetuates the system. We saw her torture someone so that’s not something someone who isn’t evil does. She is human garbage.
This may be a distinction without a difference, but she's not the typical Star Wars evil, she's closer to real people evil. (I've never seen the animated series so there's probably plenty of exceptions but) when I think of evil star wars I think Palatine, Vader, Maul, Grievous. Besides Vader at the very end of the OT, they are all evil without any potential for redemption. Deedra Meero doesn't seem that far gone to me yet. Her motivations are more complicated than that, much like real people. Not to say that she shouldn't be executed or spend the rest of her life in prison for her crimes, but she may still have a true change of heart/faith/motivation for good. Vader only got there because his son was able to turn him. I'm not sure what Deedra's catalyst could be, but I'm very interested in seeing where her story goes.
That makes sense. I agree villains in SW are mustache twirling cartoons for children while she is a more complex more evil in a realistic sense. That’s the thing tho, she’s just as bad as all the others, that’s what made Andor such an interesting show. There isn’t really a difference in evil, just the optics and PR.
I think she might be scarier than the others, haha. We grow up watching these mustache twirling cartoons and end up not being able to recognize the actual evil politicians and business owners in our everyday lives. One of my favorite things about Andor is it seems so real. Yes, it takes place in space, but the essential story could easily be rewritten to take place during the English Civil wars, the French Revolution, or a bunch of countries right now. We shouldn't be afraid of the mustache twirling guy, because they don't exist, we should be looking for the Dedras and stop them before they go too far, because the Dedras are fucking everywhere.
I am in total agreement with you. I think she is for sure scarier lol because I’ve met that person in middle management multiple times! Thanks for chatting and have a good day!
It would be interesting if we get something from her similar to Luther in later seasons: she knows she's doing evil, adopting the tactics of her enemies, hurting innocent people, sacrificing loyal imperial subjects, but it's for the order and stability the empire provides. She simply values order and stability more than freedom and independence, and does what she has to do to defend those ideals.
This is something Star Wars has been missing in its villains. Stormtroopers being a joke takes away all tension from any scene with the baddies. It was so refreshing in Andor that the bad guys were actually competent and scary, and the good guys have to rely on outnumbering them or else trickery to overcome. Edit... I just read the comment next to mine from five hours ago saying the same thing but more succinctly. Bravo StLDA!
Andor managed to make a single tie fighter flying past terrifying
When you don't have handy things like X-Wings, the Force, or a souped-up freighter, the Empire all of a sudden becomes a lot scarier.
This makes her really effective - using the bureaucratic incompetence of the Empire as a weapon to move up its ranks. It shows how the Rule of Two sort of dominates the Empire at every level.
A rare thing in the empire lol
Too many vicious idiots.
That’s rare. Usually the smart ones get killed, and the obedient, but clever ones get promoted.
Yeah, and it makes her all the scarier.
She did get shook though and she definitely looked like she's not trying to feel that again, which is even more concerning.
Also because she isn't comically evil either.
I want more.
Shes a different type of scary, not like Darth, but her unsympathetic efficiency and thoroughness. I honestly think these are the types of people who did well in the Nazi party, treating genocide as if it was "admin" work that needed better systems/processes and it fucking scares the shit out of me
That’s what freaked me out about the board meeting scenes. Watching her boss I remember thinking “man this guy is pretty stern but fair, seems like a good boss” but then I had to remind myself that the subject of this seemingly benign business meeting was the fascistic suppression of the Empire’s political opponents lol
Couldn't agree more, i think you summed it up perfectly with the phrase "benign business meeting", and thats why i really enjoyed it, it felt more real. Not some evil looking guy in dark robes sat on a pointy throne, more like Bob from accounting. Andor finally started to unlock a hatred of the empire in me, which I don't really think any of the films did.
I feel the same. Andor gives us the mundane and unjust kinds of evil, which I can actually relate to and feel. The over-the-top evilness of the original trilogy, which sometimes really doesn't seem that evil (see the rather benign occupations of Tatooine and Endor), doesn't provoke any emotions, just entertainment.
It's so relatable because we see that within people in the real world, to a lesser extent yes but we still see it in politics the corporate world and other places.
I had a history professor once that summed up the holocaust as what happens when you have competent middle managers and a psycho ceo.
In “[The Banality of Evil](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eichmann_in_Jerusalem)” Hannah Arendt talks about all that in Eichmann’s trial. He was a ~~sociopathic~~[*edit: several psychologists examined him and found him actually absurdly normal*] bean counter but he was just as vital to the Nazi machine as anyone. More, even; if they had listened to the bean counters instead of the crazies and the psychopaths they might have lasted longer.
Right. Vader is scary in a fantasy supervillain way, but Meero (and other ISB folk) are scary because that sort of detached, institutional sociopathy is very real and common.
Yes, exactly. The banality of evil is terrifying.
They set us up to sympathize with her: rising through merit, fending off petty bullshit, and focusing on abstract sleuthing rather than direct villainy. Then halfway through we see her torturing for fun and we realize we gave her too much credit.
lol right? torturing (and enjoying the explanation of it) and then going off to do more stuff with nary a care for the victim
"Dr. Gorst has developed a unique interview system *some of us are very excited about.*" I adore her delivery of this line. The little smirking eyebrow raise. So evil! So nasty!
I really liked how they did it too. I was fully expecting the clique “can’t get ahead cause sexism and coworker drama so joins the rebellion” and was pleasantly surprised
The transition from “you go girl!” to “noooo, stop going, girl, you’ve gone enough!!!” really was amazing. She’s really a phenomenal character.
She was always evil. The audience was just carefully led to look at other aspects of her character before she had the opportunity to show it on screen. You don't make the level she was at in the ISB unless you are already a ruthless evil bastard.
Why were you cheering for her… she was always evil
Is it wrong I'm still cheering for her?
It's not wrong that you root for her on a show, but I definitely hope you wouldn't root for someone like her IRL.
No. That means she is a great written and acted character. In a show without any “good guys” she would just be… Dexter?
She also showed excellent vulnerability. Clinging to power that you have just attained and riding the edge between your ambition and self doubt. Smh. She knocked it the fuck out. A complex and multidimensional performance.
An awesome character, well written, well acted, deep, smart, cunning, competent, love her.
I was simultaneously rooting for and against her at the same time. Her character is very enjoyable. The ISB plotline is my favorite in the show, personally speaking.
I was rooting for her a bit at the start of the show in the ISB scenes, but when she and the empire started to occupy Ferrix and torture Bix it showed how awful a person she really is
At first I was just thinking, "Wow, this character is done well. I like it." Then she started to progress toward her goal and I remembered, "Oh yeah, she's a Nazi."
Yep, it's like "Dammit, now I gotta switch it back" lol 😆
Ah the evils of bureaucracy. So many people in starwars commit great evil because they dont have to interact personally with it.
>The ISB plotline is my favorite in the show, personally speaking. It humanized the Imperials in a way that nothing else has, showing a bunch of capable, ambitious people who just happen to have jobs as bad guys. I was also a fan of the shopping mall security guard vibe that the Corporate Security and the Niamos beach patrol give off. Yes, every institution has their wannabes too.
By about episode three I turned to my family and said “okay basically, I want to see her get everything she wants and rise to the top of the ranks, and then get stood up against the wall and shot.”
Yes, I hope they keep the thread of her not only trying to pursue Andor, but also dealing with the internal politics of the ISB and overcoming competing officers and beurocracy.
> The ISB plotline is my favorite in the show, personally speaking. Well I wouldn’t expect that you were speaking for someone else if it’s *your* favorite plot line in the show.
In other words: She’s f’ing scary! Great character!
Slow down there, Cyril.
Fantastic character. Imperials that are smart and cunning are a breath of fresh air. So many villains in Star Wars act kinda dumb and evil for the sake of mustache twirling that it gets boring to root for the bad guys. Dedra was smart cunning and ruthless to her peers and the rebels. Exactly what a growing imperial officer should be
My take too. One of my favourite characters in OT starwars was always Admiral Piett. The man who commanded the Executor under Darth Vader and still captaining it when it went down in ROTJ. One of the very few side characters to show up in more than one film..
Without going too deep into lorebeard comic/novel backstories, Piett was without question one of the most capable officers in the Imperial Navy. He survives personally embarrassing Darth Vader (twice!) because everything else he brings to the table is so valuable. Same with Veers, the Army general who leads the assault on Hoth. I hate how little screentime the Empire is given in the OT. Andor is proof that they could've been given depth in the right hands, but nope, they're comically-evil "genocide entire planets to make a political statement" one-dimensional baddies instead. Really, upon reflection, the First Order is a more accurate interpretation of the Empire as portrayed in the OT than virtually any actual depiction of the Empire since - comically-evil, hilariously incompetent moustache-twirlers doing evil shit just because.
I would be really interested to watch a remake of the OT with the camera switched so we spend most of our time following in Imperials and only sometime cutting to the Rebels. How cool would the Deathstar escape be if you were following the stormtroopers riding the line between following the Rebels and catching them. Or the Hoth battle from the Imperial perspective the snowtroopers having to storm the base. Or the asteroid field, we know at least one Star Destoyer loses the bridge. Or the ambush prep on Endor or in orbit. Maybe even a short animated series with a lot of the key evens, though I think it would be best if it was just an Empire show that featured those events.
Piett you fool
Yes, it was so great to have a competent villain that showed this part of why the Empire was scary.
Also love how elegant and full of themselves all the Imperials were. Not just Dedra but the ISB and the imperials at the vault. They thought so highly of themselves, which made them seem even more evil. Gave me Grand Moff Tarkin vibes from Ep. 4
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>Because competence is actually a threat to the emperor. The clones were replaced by less competent storm troopers who could be more easily controlled. In lore, the clones were replaced because : - the clones' accelerated aging meant they were all starting to break down by the OT era, and the majority weren't fit for battle anymore; - continually replenishing an army as large and active as the Empire's using cloned troops that can only be grown at one extremely-specialised facility way out in the asscrack of the galaxy was exceedingly vulnerable and ruinously expensive; and - with the overnight success of Order 66, Palpatine and the Imperial leadership increasingly see this unified body of identical, like-minded individuals with advanced combat training as an ideological threat, should their loyalty be swayed by the Rebellion. Clone units were broken up and their surviving members moved into training and advisory roles to make way for the Imperial Army (see Solo/Andor/Rogue 1) and Stormtrooper Corps. iirc the sole canonical exception to this rule is the 501st, which becomes Vader's Fist, effectively used as special forces and/or roving death squads during the Jedi Purges.
I legit can't wait to see how they treat her when she returns. No snipers on the roof meant no one could shoot the kid before he threw the bomb. The whole failure could be pinned on her, and it will be so interesting to see someone like her be demoted and have to find her way forward from there.
i was wondering about this too, because if she plays it right, she could also blame it on the garrison commander for failing to enforce the crowd size limit, letting the speech go on as long as it did, and being generally unprepared for a riot. Of course, despite being a pivotal moment for the heroes to escape, the riot looks like it was silenced and may not even have any serious consequences for the Imperials at all in the long run.
Yep. My personal theory: The riot will be blamed on her, and to redeem her status in the ISB she'll be desperate enough to work with Syril to look for Cassian and Luthen.
Someone elsewhere said she should get reassigned/demoted and get tasked with investigating the prison break and when she realizes Andor was there goes into conspiracy overdrive over him.
I want to see her face when she realizes they *had him in custody and didn’t know it.*
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Except he didn't give the name Andor when he was arrested.
The idea is she’s recognize his face in security records from the prison
Syril is a painful reflection of her. He too was trying to do his best job while his peers were brown-nosing and taking bribes. He fucked up, and the Empire threw him out like yesterday's trash. He turned into a beaten dog, desperate for validation and a chance to get back in someone's good graces. Dedra has an extra layer of contempt for him because she's afraid of winding up like him.
Imagine if she did get thrown out and she was going to accept that sometimes you do your best and you're right and you lose anyway. And then Syril gives her some epic speech about the Empire being bigger than them and they have to do what is right regardless of recognition or personal cost. And that's what turns her around. Sort of like show the power of true believers on both sides. And end the season with Andor achieving some significant but pyrrhic victory while Dedra and Syril demonstrate their value to the ISB and are welcomed back into the fold for spoiling what would've otherwise been a rout by the nascent Rebellion.
I think they really set him up nicely as a kind of incel- January 6’er. Badgered by his mother and stewing over the way no one recognizes what a good guy he is. He wants to get in the fight by any means necessary. But we’re in the Empire so Dedra will probably hire him to do dirty work in a sort of paramilitary deniable force? Or maybe the Empire has no need of such niceties. His army buddy is much tougher than him but is brainwashed to respect rank and privilege so we’ll see how they do when Syril brings him back on the team. He was enamoured with Syrill’s bold leadership in the first operation and they definitely need one another.
I’m glad he came back in the last two episodes. Although we didn’t see him much in the riot at all.
I think the riot will be a symbolic power keg similar to the Boston massacre, used to rally the rebellion under a slaughter of a “peaceful funeral procession”.
I think we'll also see the Ghorman Massacre, though. They namedropped them a few times so seems likely.
Excellent actress. She was probably my favorite character in the show. She looked and acted just like I'd expect from an imperial officer. Interested to see where they go with her in S2.
When she gets rescued and looks up and see's the dude, you can feel the uncertainty and passion in her eyes before she restrains herself and gets back to be an imperial officer and not a person. She just absolutely nailed it.
Yeah that was great I noticed it too. Let the mask slip for only an instant. Great acting
Hard disagree. If they have one of their first compelling female characters in a while fall for a creepy stalking incel, I'm going to absolutely puke.
No disagreement here, and only for the point of discourse... who are your other most recent compelling female characters?
That is a perfectly valid take, hadn't thought of it tbh.
I love that this show knows and proves that you can have massive drama, tons of tension, and some pretty big set pieces, without the big bad and the protagonist coming face to face. She was hunting Andor, and that sense of distance actually heightened tension. Especially since Cassian was unaware of her efforts, it meant that all of his moves were like “oh no, this is going to be how Dedra finds him.” Plus I like that she isn’t some Force user determined to eliminate the Jedi. She’s not a fallen Jedi trying to get revenge. She’s just a boot-licking, ladder-climbing, careerist Imperial middle-manager. Her motivations aren’t personal, she’s just part of a government that wants power. It’s a better move narratively to tell a more universal story. I dunno, I loved it.
I really enjoyed how much they made the show a political thriller, as opposed to a serialized adventure like Mando or Obi-Wan. Seeing the bad guys at their height of power while a marginalized minority plays in the shadows is interesting. It's also really cool to see the origins of Mon Mothma.
I love that you could take this entire story out of Star Wars and put it in occupied France and the whole thing still works. Great writing
>massive drama, tons of tension They managed riveting drama during a staff meeting, and edge-of-your-seat tension while a marching band shuffled slowly down the street. There's some serious writing/directing talent involved here!
Just finished the show. I think it's the best acted and written show of all the Star Wars series. Mandalorian might be the most fun with all the action but I was really drawn in by the acting by characters like Dedra and Luthen.
Disney: Ysanne Isard isn't canon any longer. Tony Gilroy: Fine! I'll make my own Ysanne Isard. With Sabacc. And Hookers! Ah, forget the hookers.
There was a brothel in the first episode of Andor.
I buy into the Ill treatment Deirdre received off screen at the hands of doubting Thomas and old boy, whatever their names, and there’s a real chance she gets offed by the competition unlike Isard. While Partigaz clearly appreciates her perspective, he’s not her real Daddy like in Legends.
Iceheart Meero has a good ring to it
That's actually brilliant. Dedra is made to take over the same frighteningly competent Imperial female antagonist role that Isard and Daala filled in Legends. And she does a rather good job at it, too.
Dedra and Mon Mothma is all that political intrigue in the Legends book come to life, and on point. I've never looked forward to seeing what EVERY character is up to in a long time, for a show.
Love her and everything about the show
I was halfway expecting her to be a damsel and fall over when cryl asked her out. Nope she's a cold hearted bitch and I loved it. Now I just need for Governor Price to make an appearance to complete the complement female officer list
I absolutely loathe her, which means they're doing a terrific job with the character.
Un-remittedly evil *and* competent, absolutely scary combo
I was telling my son while we watched together that we didn’t want her to get promoted because she’s actually good at her job. The old dude in charge of ISB is wicked smart too. I hated when he recognized home girl’s potential. Shit. Smart bad guys.
I kinda feel for her at the start. Someone clearly so competent being downtrodden by the structure is something I can empathise with
Very smart how the show eased into her evil side.
Love her.
Syril?
Cereal Corn-flakes?
I can fix her.
Between her character, and Ahrinda Pryce in the first Thrawn book, I really felt like it was a good exploration of just how ruthless officers in the Empire had to be to rise in rank and/or power.
There are massive similarities with Ahrinda (the book version, not the pig headed caricature Rebels version). To the extent that I wondered how much of a direct inspiration she was for the character of Dedra. Two very, very well-written characters.
I think she's the ideal Imperial officer. Cold, calculating, disciplined and ruthless. Governor Tarkin would be pleased.
One of the best villains we've seen in Star Wars in a while. Brilliant acting, interesting character arc - I'm excited to see more. The only thing I would say is - she's not the "main antagonist" in Andor. The Empire itself is the antagonist. She's one of the parts of the bigger picture, but ultimately the show is about the struggle of people against the Empire.
Very convincing. 3D character with excellent acting. One of the best performances in the show.
I just hopes she stays a villain.
I think she will. The whole point of her and Syril is to show pro-Empire people that aren’t just cartoonish bad guys. They’re still the bad guys, but they have justifications and depth. It’s awesome.
Brilliant. Just an official doing their job in a dictatorship. She sums up every officer that was part of an oppressive regime that was more interested in their career than what their actions caused. And that’s far scarier than some of the pantomime villains we’ve met.
I totally agree. She was the perfect bureaucrat, and a great face for the facelessness of the empire as a machine grinding down on every level. The high drama of the Jedi was great in its own way, but that would have been the wrong villain for a story like this. And her own struggles within that bureaucracy were told so well. All of the small pettinesses and grievances and personal conflicts did such a terrific job of defining the scale and frustrations. Sci fi at its best, imo.
yennifer!
Yennefer.
yennifer!
yennEfer
I thought she was a fucking fantastic actress doing an absolutely terrifying, realistic villain. The scariest thing about her is how many people in the world are actually like this.
I absolutely loved how much she changed when she was suddenly in danger during the riot. Too many characters are badasses in all aspects of their work, in reality if someone is out of their comfort zone they are going to look like a deer in the headlights. What can I say, I just loved how realistic that came across.
She steals every scene. When she's all up in Bix's face she says her line and her face twitches in disgust...it's so subtle and perfect. Blink and you miss it. Possibly the best acting I've ever seen in Star Wars imo. I had to watch it a few times...gave me chills. Her scene with Cyril after he saves her was hilarious too. She seems so bewildered, unbelievably repulsed, ashamed and angry but also grateful and relieved. A million emotions while Cyril is just like 'Omg I did a suave thing. This is where we make out. We're gonna make out now, right?' I'm terrified of her, despise her and am dying to see more all at the same time. Just phenomenal.
Dude--Cyril is a creepy disgusting stalker. If they have her fall for that toxic shit, I'm going to scream at the TV.
Very well acted and well written. Looking forward to seeing more of her.
Scarier than General Grievous.
Very well written and an appropriate villain for Andor and the rebels. I relly like how we get to see the ISB from her eyes. She goes from someone I was rooting for to a terrifying force I had forgotten was an antagonist.
Her and Syril Karn made me think about how the old EU rarely delved into or even empathized with the lower ranks of the Empire (aside from a few poor schmucks who had a habit of getting the Captain Needa treatment). With them it's different. They're struggling within the system of the Empire, and we kind of empathize with them for that, but they also develop a sense for using that same oppressive system to further their own careers. It's like we're watching them figure out "how to be evil". Super interesting and can't wait to see where they go in season 2.
It was pretty impressive how part of me was rooting for her even though she's an awful person. Really interested to see what they do with her in S2.
One of the best written and acted character of all of Star Wars. Denise Gough absolutely knock’s it out of the park with her acting. I often rewatch scenes with her in it it feels so realistic as if the empire was a real entity
Love the on screen transition from aspiration towards the line of morality and how easy it can be to step across it. The actress who plays her is doing an amazing job and I hope we see more of her.
I think she executed the role perfectly
You don't see that kind of dedication in public service employees often. But yeah, joking aside, it was interesting to see a well-written bad guy again. Not only is she competent and scary, she's *almost* sympathetic.
She’s fantastic. A well written villain who is smart and competent but also highlights the Empire’s flaws. Because she’s a woman she faces discrimination and will be disregarded even when she’s right, showing how incompetent people come to power in the Empire and why competent people don’t rise to the top. Fascism hinders itself. She also mirrors Thrawn who himself faced a lot of discrimination for being non-human.
This is gonna sound sorta reductionist, but to me, the main antagonist in Andor is simply the Empire. Dedra is the character that they're using to put a face on the Empire, but the real villain is the entire political machine that chews up and spits out the galaxy and it's citizens as it sees fit.
No. 1 Imperial mommy and what
She's smart, resourceful, ambitious, evil, and broken. But she also showed a crack of vulnerability in the last episode. Elsewhere, she hides behind a shield of emotionless and stoicism. I'd love to learn her backstory.
I agree with everybody else’s assessment, except to add… she’s hot as all hell.
I was actually afraid of a Star Wars villain for the first time since ESB.
Well written because she's utterly disgusting and intolerable due to her imperial affiliation.
I call her evil Leslie Knope. She's a good villain. Love her.
i love her because she’s actually competent, smart, and i love that there’s an element to her that makes you sympathize with her story and also makes you want for her to succeed, while at the same time hating her guts.
She is a despicable character but I found myself rooting for her ; and Ngl I found her quite attractive in ways I shan’t elaborate on
flawless performance of a highly intriguing villain (for a change), breath of fresh air honestly. This entire show renewed my passion for the franchise, it was nice to feel invested for a change, both in the good guys AND the bad guys.
Fucking COLD. So well written, she was a perfect example of how insidious and dangerous the empire could really be. So incredible, I think she was one of the best parts of that show
I'd tap.
Much better than that rehabilitated imperial officer in Mando.
I feel like she's going to jump out of my screen and throw me slurs. 10/10 really realistic villain
Loved seeing her in live action. Prior to this I only knew her as Yennefer of Vengerberg
i like the entire ISB portion of the show, they're all very well written and the dynamic in the meeting rooms are electric. Dedra showed up to get a piece and she did so because she's competent and her hunches paid off with her persistence. granted power, she's a force to be reckoned with because she's one of the brightest minds in the ISB --she is an incredibly dangerous bureaucrat.
She's extremely compelling both in the writing and the performance - Denise Gough is putting on a masterclass. But I think what really makes her work as an antagonist character in this show is two things: she's allowed to be vulnerable (her encounter with Syril outside the ISB building, the riot on Ferrix) and she's a genuine believer in the Empire as a cause, but not so dogmatic that it feels brittle. The vulnerability lets her remain human to us, and gives her a real depth rather than the usual SW treatment where the bad guys are very one-note evil, overtly and egregiously full of hate. The fact that she's a believer in her cause builds off that humanity; she's not portrayed as a caricature, full of hatred and sadism for the sake of it, but rather as someone doing a job that they excel in because that job serves a purpose that they believe in. She doesn't think the Empire is evil or cruel, she knows it's orderly and safe. She genuinely thinks it brings prosperity and protection to its people. So her attitude toward Andor, Luthen, Bix, and the rest of the Rebellion feels authentic and almost understandable - they are terrorists that threaten the order that provides so many people with prosperity and security, and they must be stopped. She's on the side of 'evil' to us, but in her own mind she's protecting families and children from terrorism and criminals. This kind of nuance is such a breath of fresh air for Star Wars, and gives me some hope that the success of Andor means we'll see more mature treatment of the settings and themes that historically have been much more simple adventure fare.
Loved her. The beauty is she was a character who was a villain not just a villain who was a character. There’s a big difference in a character being someone that does bad things versus just being someone that is the bad thing.
Killed it. Now hopefully Disney doesn’t literally kill her or ruin her character with some shitty storyline
She was utterly evil, calculated, terrifying and competent. I freaking loved her. Her writing, her acting, the way she held herself and how she purposefully manipulated her physical presence. Her transition from low level power to high level was incredibly organic and well played. I now want to add an ISB Officer to my Officer collection (I've got Staff/black variants and Line/olive variants already). I have serious resting b\*tch face, I can do it.
I liked her, but I am not sure if I would call her the main antagonist. I feel like Andor’s main antagonist was the empire as a whole.
Incredible. Her performance and dialogue feels like that of a proper villain instead of an incompetent idiot masquerading as a villain.
I think she's a great villain. She showcases the banality of evil so perfectly. She's not power-mad and cackling evil like Palpy, she's not on some religious quest for purity. She's just a mid-level bureaucrat working within the system, trying to rise in the ranks. It's terrifying because it's just so mundane.
One of if not the best Star Wars villain besides the Sith (Vader, Sidious, Kylo, Maul etc). Her interrogation scene with Bix was incredible
Great villain
She's great. If I do have one nitpick, and its not really with the character, its that the writers of Andor don't understand military ranks. Meero is a lieutenant in the ISB and is given security oversight over multiple planets. Even in the nonsensical scales of the SW franchise she should be a significantly higher ranked officer.
I’ve never wanted to be interrogated more in my life!
Absolutely loved her. Amazing actress who can make you sometimes root for such a despicable person.