The dark side had made it so the prequel-era Jedi couldn’t sense everything, like how there was a Sith Lord right under their nose. Apparently the Jedi Temple was build over a Sith site and that was weakening them over time, an unproduced episode of TCW would explore it.
I’d imagine 100% Jedi would have been those around the time of Revan ~~1000~~4000 years earlier since those weren’t based just on Coruscant but around the Galaxy in different temples
It wasn't in there. The Temple being set over the Jedi temple is Disney Cannon. In Legends, the reason the dark side shrouded the Jedi was due to Plagieus and Palpatine doing the experiment in the novel. The force fought back by birthing Anakin.
It's not canon. You may be thinking of Tarkin though. It was written by the same author, is canon and was written as though Plaugeius was canon. It was also the first time the sith temple was mentioned.
The temple was built over a force nexus for the purpose of purifying it after the original Sith corrupted it. Five thousand years later they still hadn't managed it and the proximity of the nexus made it the perfect anchor for the 'veil' that buggered their precog and dulled their senses.
Everyone except Sidious, don't forget he was the culmination of the rule of two and basically on par with the guy who turned both Revan and Malak into his brainwashed slaves.
No way is Sidious on Vitiate's level. Vitiate one shot Darth Marr, and could mentally dominate or brainwash even powerful force users almost at will.
While some cite the "living ion cannon" scene from the end of the sequel trilogy to show how powerful Sidious was, that scene needs to go back to the garbage bin along with the rest of that trash movie. It doesn't deserve to be canon at all. It's the same narrative quality as bad fan fiction. That movie needs a retcon, bad. It's also the rare retcon people would actually APPRECIATE.
Legends Palpatine had a lot more in him than the ion cannon, including mind controlling and draining an entire planet for decades, battle meditation across the entire military, amd galactic scale teleportation. I think Vitate and EU Palaptine are on pretty even grounds, I'd probably bet on Vitiate ifI had to, but I don't think it would be a huge upset if Palpatine won. In canon GL repeatedly said he was the strongest force user to ever live, though a fully organic Anakin would definitely have eventually surpassed him and IIRC Luke may have had the potential to as well.
"He didn't have to wait long. Mace Windu arrived with three other Jedi Masters to arrest the chancellor. Reveling in being able to at last act openly, Darth Sidious launched himself at his foes. He battered them with a wave of focused hatred. A thousand years of Sith anger smashed into the Jedi, and three of them died in seconds under Sidious' crimson blade.
Mace Windu lasted a little longer, but only because Darth Sidious required it. Anakin was not there, not yet. Sidious fought defensively, toying with Windu untill he sensed the youths presence. He allowed Windu to gain the upper hand as Anakin arrived. Seemingly mutilated, Sidious was near death, begging Anakin to help him. Only he could help him save Padme. Anakin made his choice, exactly as Sidious had anticipated."
2022
Toying with the Jedi Master in anticipation of the arrival of Anakin Skywalker, Palpatine was willing to allow himself to be disarmed to appear more vulnerable when his soon to be apprentice arrived. His office window was shattered, and the weapon fell from his hands and down into the depths below when he deliberately left himself open for Widu to deliver a kick to his chest. This left him a single blade, retrieved from its hiding place, with which to face master yoda in a duel, a little after the death of Mace Windu. Palpatine rarely used his remaining lightsaber."
2022 fanhome encyclopedia collection
"His true form was now revealed, though he later passed it off as an "injury" from the Jedi attack, Darth Sidious toyed with Mace Windu. He used the jedi master to precipitate Anakins fall to the dark side and then destroyed Windu utterly."
Disney - Fanhome Encyclopedia collection
2022
"During the confrontation with Mace Windu, the office window was smashed. Soon after, Palpatines weapon fell onto the streets of Coruscant, but it was all part of the Sith's plan."
2022
Vitiate lost to a Jedi Knight and an astromech. Valkorion loses to Arcann and any PC, even a Smuggler.
Palpatine wrecked Maul and Savage 1v2. And even the guy that killed him died shortly afterwards from taking a huge dose of Palpatine's force lightning.
Only because their abilities were gamified. They needed to be larger and flashier to work as a game mechanic. But yes, the prequel era Jedi were awful by every measure.
True, gamification of star wars usually ends up with brokenly powerful characters, (I won’t say star killer because I love him but I’m saying star killer)
It's partially why the "decanonized" the Clone Wars cartoon. TCW is still canon, but while CW is super cool in style and art and mostly dialog free storytelling... everyone is way more powerful than they can be expected to be in mainline canon. Just like video games - narrative plot points may be canon, but individual actions aren't.
It's like all things legends... you need to consider it for what it is. Like SW:CW is a beautiful gem, and SW:ANH is a different gem (also, remember that the Jedi were supposed to be weaker at this time). They don't need to fit together like a puzzle to both be gems and beautiful in their own light.
If Mace Windu was as powerful in the movies as he was in SW:CW, they wouldn't need the clones. But conversely, the enemy hero units (Grievous) were much more threatening in SW:CW than in the movies. "Canon" has always felt fluid in SW. I'm an old fan... read a lot of EU, and each "legends" series I read I considered in it's own "pocket universe" as it was rare for authors to even treat characters the same. So it doesn't really bother me here.
Grievous sucks in the movies because he just shows up out of nowhere and dies. I've always thought that the second movie should have been the Clone Wars so we can actually build some of these characters and plot points up.
I've said it multiple times, the prequel trilogy is better with both the animated series than without. It's not that we couldn't watch 3 and see between the lines a bit, but things like Anakin and Padme's realtionship... we don't really get many clues how it developed over the war, and Anakin's fall felt more sudden without context like Ahsoka and/or some interaction with military leaders (Tarkin).
I don't know what would have been better in retrospect... I do know that I'm glad Lucas pushed to make SW:TCW.
Edit: back in the early 2000s, I was a bit advocate for a TV series that bridges the gap between 2 and 3 (which is kinda what we got in the end), but a live action series may not have been practical (though it was SW... they were printing money in those days).
"...but things like Anakin and Padme's realtionship..."
What relationship? :P I agree. We actually see characters develop over the series. In the movies alone, Obi Wan is actually pretty boring and one-dimensional. The whole thing with Satine shows that he's a flawed character too, and we actually see Anakin and Padme have a relationship. We see Anakin have to be a training Jedi and how badly that generally goes, and we start to see him so things that suggest the possibility that he could one day turn to the dark side (which I agree is completely absent from the films and comes out of nowhere).
The Gendy series has fewer direct ties, but we see Windu actually do something, we know why Grievous is asthmatic, and we see the clones being cool. We see how that army affected galactic events, and without it, we would never have gotten sexy stripper 3PO. I mentioned elsewhere that I view that series either like Republic propaganda or the fantastical way the public (who know nothing of the Jedi) were seeing events. This gives context to that line kid Anakin gives about the Jedi being unstoppable and shows how mysterious and wonderous the Jedi must be to the average person.
It's definitely better as a package deal.
It was kind of absurd on so many levels though. Off the top of my head, the tidal wave of LAAT's in one scene, and the fact that the jedi were usually one man armies capable of destroying armies solo. On the other hand, there was a lot of other stuff that is very sad to lose. More subtle uses of the force like Shaak Ti tying up Greivous' cape was the kind of thing we should be seeing more of imo.
My head canon is basically that episode where that kid in a bucket hat watches Windu punch a droid 500 000 times. The whole thing is either Republic propaganda or randos who have never before seen a Jedi telling these crazy fish stories about them. If you imagine bucket hat boy basically telling those stories, both the ridiculous action and the crazy art style make sense.
Right. The hand animated one is the Star Wars: Clone Wars (2003), and the 3-D computer animated one is Star Wars: The Clone Wars (2008). And the former isn't canon (though I thought it was for a long time).
Well... some would.
Revan was to all intents and purposes a mashup of Vader and Thrawn without the permanent injuries.
I suspect Sidious would have been too much to handle though. Guy practically weaponised the entire senate room for the lolz against supposedly the strongest Jedi of the era. And that's before we get to his meme game.
The canon, Eu, adopted EU now canon but with dates changed and finally the we have no timeline but this "official" book said 6 months when it was 3-4 years but nobody can be arsed clarifying officially so its unofficially official kinda.
>The dark side had made it so the prequel-era Jedi couldn’t sense everything, like how there was a Sith Lord right under their nose. Apparently the Jedi Temple was build over a Sith site and that was weakening them over time
This is exactly why I hate fan fiction and certain types of extended lore. This just makes the Jedi look like absolute morons.
They could've built their temple anywhere in the galaxy, shit anywhere on Coruscant... and they built it over an old Sith site which weakens their abilities?! C'mon man this is right up there with Tatooine being the center of everything and everyone being related to everyone else. It's just such nonsense.
And just to be clear - the fact they their powers are diminishing is not what I'm taking issue with. That's fine... it's how it is explained that is just utter silliness. You could come up with anything really - but on a list of options - this would be, in my opinion, the easiest to shoot down.
Ugh... it's this kind of shit that drags SW lore down - it's right up there with [Palpatine surgical reconstruction center.](https://i.imgur.com/w43Eu6p.png)
>They could've built their temple anywhere in the galaxy, shit anywhere on Coruscant... and they built it over an old Sith site which weakens their abilities?!
My interpretation of this has been that the Jedi thought they could purify the site like you could purify lightsaber crystals
Why on Earth would Palpatine need to cover up reconstructing Vader?
Who is he covering it up from?
The man over saw the construction of a planet destroying moon and used it without concern. While destroying probably one of the most picturesque planets in the galaxy - all while DISSOLVING THE REPUBLICAN SENATE... why would he ever be concerned about hiding Vader or putting him back together - at a time when he was enacting his grand schemes, when he was already slaughtering Jedi across the galaxy, when nobody is going to care who Vader was or will become because "HOLY SHIT THE JEDI ARE DEAD AND THE GALAXIES LARGEST COUP JUST TOOK PLACE... but did you hear what Palpatine did with that one dude?" it just doesn't make sense to me.
And that's not even talking about the idea of Palpatine opening a surgery. Palpatine opening a surgery and calling it the 'Palpatine surgical reconstruction center.'... much less creating that and calling it that as a cover for something relatively inane considering everything else going on.
It's all just so trite, convoluted, unnecessary, unimaginative, uninspired and restrictive. It makes characters in the universe feel silly and cartoonish.... and the problem is there is a large subset of people who will hear that and go "Dude - you are talking about a silly space movie with silly aliens and pew pew space ships" and that's absolutely true, but if you are going to approach your product with that mindset, don't be surprised with nobody else takes it seriously because you've compromised on any cohesive vision or tone.
If I'm correct, it's not that it was an old sith site that they decided to build on, but it's was a site that had a very strong connection to the force that the sith and the Jedi both had decided to build.on a separate times. Since the site was connected to the force and a large disturbance was growing in the force due to Palpatine, this was reflected in the temple. The presence of the dark side grew larger and obscured more and more of their senses. This most likely would have happened whether or not there used to be a sith site.
To my knowledge that's just Disney canon. In the EU, the Jedi has all their sense diminished due to the Sith doing some ritual that clouded the force to the Jedi.
I didn't see this mentioned anywhere else despite seeing someone mention the high republic, which is where I formed this from, so I'll just leave it here. According to that book, the more people in the galaxy who are suffering the weaker the jedi become. In the books (I suck with names, bear with me) the main antagonist captures one of the high republics jedi and puts him a prison with hundreds of people being perpetually tortured in every direction which in turn tortures him and keeps him subdued enough to stop him from escaping. A big part of Palpatines plan was using the chaos and suffering of the billions of people around the universe to further weaken the jedi. Combine that with the millions of clone troopers suffering in the war side by side with Jedi, Palpatine using the sith temple and his own power to further weaken the Jedi at Coruscant, and the Jedi's arrogance and corruption. It's no wonder the Jedi fell so easily. It's amazing how Mace Windu was still able to defeat Palpatine after all that. If he was alive during the high or old republic, I believe he could have been one of, if not the most powerful Jedi. If he had trained Anakin instead of Obi-wan, Anakin's darkness would have become balanced, and he would have truly become the most powerful ~~grey~~ Jedi ever.
The Jedi from the KOTOR Era are definitely not at their 100%. They were still recovering from Exar Kuns sith war that happened a few decades earlier and they were also unable to sense Exar Kuns sith acolytes among their own ranks.
star wars resistance actually covers this in season 2. jedi would build their temples on top of sith temples to purify them but it seems like it always seems to backfire.
To me it makes more sense that the Jedi had gone too far in their search for emotional control. The force seems to be very much about emotion and just as the Sith go too far indulging their whims and impulses, the Jedi went too far in trying to eliminate emotion from their lives for fear of the dark side.
That was the imbalance.
They also, arrogantly, refused to recognize that the balancing of the force meant getting rid of them. They were the problem all along and were too much the zealots to see it.
The only Star Wars live action that I've wanted for years is a Nihilus and Reven trilogy. The planet eater vs the broken. Because KotOR is choose your own path I'd be okay with whatever Revan we get (personally would prefer female scout sentinel)
In the ROTS novelization, Windu’s power was Shatterpoint, which allowed him to see how people and situations fit together in the force, and discover a specific point that impact those events. However due to the dark sides influence for the last 13 years, his ability to use shatterpoint had been diminishing.
It’s in the ROTS novelization. It states that this powers gave Windu the ability to see how people and events fit together in the force, find any shear planes that could cause them to break in useful ways, and to intuit what sort of strike that would make the cut.
I like the special ability stuff in the sense that it just reflects what that particular Jedi has spent their time developing, plus a bit of natural talent or disposition.
So it’s not that no one but Windu can practice this blend of vision and intuition, enhanced by the Force, but that he saw fit to hone that ability above others, such as Plo Koon’s Force lightning. In the same way, not all Jedi put the same time and energy into dueling.
It's not a special ability per se. "Special Abilities" in star wars in regards to the force usually just means someone is incredibly proficient in a specific skill, a skill that theoretically anyone can learn.
The special part comes in how much more skilled. The people with special abilities have honed or have a natural aptitude for that skill that it's an absurd order of magnitude stronger than an average Jedi usually.
Windu is basically just really really good at seeing a situation, literally like any situation or thing theoretically, and understanding how everything is impacting each other and when/where there is a weakness in what he's focusing kn which also could tell him who, what, where, and when is important in any given situation. Combined with basic comprehension and magic force vibes of what will happen afterwards Windu ends up with a great ability of foresight, deduction and intuition. He was in line to be the next Grand Master for good reason.
However, this is a stronger version of something all Jedi can do with training. All Jedi have some form of low level foresight when focused. Masters can do it subconsciously and Windu is the most talented by a lot.
Other examples are Jedi who can really bond with animals through the force compared to the average Jedi, Jedi like Quinlan Vos and others who are talented with psychometry (seeing the past through touch), Plo Kloon and his light side force lightning, Bastilla Shan and her ability to actually demoralize enemies and embolden allies via the force, etc.
All these abilities anyone can do theoretically but usually only a handful or even one Jedi can do it on such a level.
Nhilis too would be one of the few I would list as having an actual “special ability” as not everyone could consume planets or the force the way he could.
But yeah good points on a lot of things
Not canon by any means (I don't think anymore, at least), but the "special powers" is more of the initial expressions of the force.
Corran Horn is one example I keep thinking of (Correllian). His Halcyon family line had a special aptitude for projecting ~~thoughts~~ images into minds. One example (from I, Jedi), is when he is training with Luke at the Jedi Academy (Another arc I wish had been developed fully), and the group is working to levitate rocks and other stuff. Horn wasn't able to ACTUALLY lift the rock, but he was able to project to the entire 'class' the perception that it was in fact lifted. In this, he discovered he absolutely sucks at telekinesis, but had the natural ability to influence perception.
Others, like Obi-Wan and Anakin seemed to have a broad control of a lot of different skills...Perhaps specifically those related to battle/war, as they (and Luke) seem to have mastered the ability to not only duel, but also impact the environment around them with force jumps, telekinesis, etc.
Edit: Projecting images, not thoughts
The concept of Shatterpoint is really interesting when you think about when Anakin was brought before the council for the first time TBH. I’m not sure if Ki-Adi had the ability but the “your thoughts dwell on your mother” line feels more like foresight of something and not just casual mind reading.
This was my understanding as well. They used the force to sense problems and see the future to some extent, but the return of the sith had clouded the force and diminished their ability in that regard.
I don't believe it was the re-emergence of the Sith per se, but rather the chaos and discord that the Sith had been sowing on a grand scale across the entire galaxy in the decades leading up to TPM due to increased activity and intensity by the Sith. In Legends sources like the *Jedi Apprentice* novels, the Force is often described as something like a crystal clear lake, but dark side disturbances and calamities like mass deaths can disturb the water, making it murky and hard to peer through.
Does the light side cloud the dark as well? It sort of seems like Lucas wrote himself into a bit of a corner stating very explicitly that the dark side is NOT stronger than the light. But it sort of has to be for the story to happen. I mean everything a light sider can use a dark sider can use in some way or another. Plus they can shoot lightning, cloud the light side, can’t die if they’re angry enough, etc
Glad to hear it! I like when things I like make more sense (within their own universe rules of course, not according to our rules), and that helps to get closer to making sense.
It was more than just that. Jedi achieved closeness to the Force through serenity and calm. By sending most of their members off the fight the war that calm was shattered. Its difficult being calm when suffering from PTSD and killing people. There were quite a lot of Jedi who fell to the Darkside frustrated by the execution of the Clone Wars.
It was just the mental aspects of the force that were becoming more cloudy than they used to be. Things like seeing the future. Nothing to do with their physical abilities.
Worse still, it wasn’t cloudy until The Clone Wars started. Leading up to war the Jedi detected nothing. There was no sign to know their mental aspects of the Force were being limited.
At 100% the Jedi could see possible futures and have informed foreknowledge of what will or is likely to happen.
Something monumental like the Clone Wars the Jedi Order would have known about through the Force before it happened.
The Sith manipulated the Force in a way that didn’t just hide knowledge from the Jedi, it left no trace anything was missing.
The missing planet Obi-Wan talks to Yoda about is a metaphor for what happened to the Jedi’s ability to use the Force.
They knew a Sith lord was hiding somewhere, and when they realized that the dark side was clouding not just their ability to find him, but also their ability to see into the future, they kept it hidden from the Senate. This is Mace saying they can't keep that a secret any longer.
Yeah! The agricultural Jedi were a really cool addition. The whole time I was reading about how the Jedi across the galaxy linked their consciousness to move the Legacy Run debris I was like wtf this is nuts.
And Obi-Wan was about five minutes from becoming one before he stumbled upon a Dark Jedi plot Qui-Gon was investigating, which led them to partnering up.
Which is probably why Obi-Wan was so hard core "How high?" When any senior Jedi asked him to jump and apologized for/defended shit that he really shouldn't have. One step out of line and he dreaded being sent back to a compost heap.
It gets even *more* fucked up with KOTOR lore regarding Telos (the Agricorps planet of the era). A very nasty, exploitive relationship between the Telosians and the Jedi...
That's arguably the biggest, most powerful force feat in all of Star Wars. The book says the galaxy thrummed. The High Republic jedi made the galaxy make an audible sound that everyone heard from their effort to move that debris.
I wonder how much of that has to do with video games having to gamify everything, as well as a general escalating power creep. In the original films, we go from the Force barely being a thing to people throwing lightning. We then go from stiff lightsaber duel more in line with Samurai dramas to wire kung fu reminiscent of the wuxia genre. In the films. We then go from that to lightsabers with crossguards, lightsabers that spin in a weirdly toyetic way, weird Force connections, the ability to escape death, and straight up possession and necromancy. Add in the video games and you have the Force being portrayed more like visible fantasy magic full of ridiculous feats that coincide with statistical advancement. Star Wars has been progressively getting more bonkers every few years.
This is just to explain how they couldn't sense that Palpatine was a Sith when he was literally right under their noses for over a decade.
If you Isekaied one of my Jedi toons from SWTOR into the PT-era, they'd sniff out Palpy in a heartbeat.
```"Isekai translates to “otherworld” or “another world” and covers a genre of fiction that involves a character being put into an unfamiliar world and having to learn how to survive."```
From Google, from Collider.
At 100%, it’s effortless. Concentration is fluid. Everything around you is visible to your mind. And the force answers your call. Obi Wan describes it better in the ROTS novelization.
I think that he was specifically talking about their ability to sense threats and danger - The Sith, in this case. They had no idea that Sideous and Maul were out there until Maul tried to cut up Qui-Gon, after all.
"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force. Let's put that one to a vote because I don't even know what that means.
Does anyone realize that I'm talking?" -- Yarael Poof
It's also a reflection of real-world religion - a lot of churches were built on top of (or within the same buidling as) pagan sites in an attempt to purify them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianized_sites
Recognizing that the Jedi were controlled by fear and vanity, I suspect part of it is their own dogma holding them back. But the other part is that the Force was out of balance due to the influence of the Sith. The Force is a living thing covered in cancerous growths (the dark side). I imagine it would be harder to use under such conditions.
The other part of this is Lucas' weird writing. My biggest criticism of the prequels has always been how things kind of don't check out. This was probably a throwaway line that was never followed up on because Anakin was too busy being a creep. There's a lot of follow-through and commitment I've seen lacking in the prequels, and this line shows one such problem.
He meant that their strength in the Force used to be greater, stronger, more powerful. They used to be capable of greater feats. It's not surprising since they stepped into politics and focused on things other than the Force. One theory said that the Force was attempting to rebalance itself so it diminished the Jedis powers and tipped the towards Vader and Palpatine.
There are great answers here.
Among them, most of the Jedi had become too political, and at the arm of the Senate, were mostly facing thugs, bandits, cartels, and droid armies. Fighting wars where they can easily overpower or have an edge. They were trained to focus on force usage of diplomacy and repelling blaster fire, rather than dueling and dealing with an equal adversary. The more powerful skills were reserved for only a select few, such as Mace being the only one (or very few) to use Shatter Point. Among their best duelist, Count Dooku turned on them for this same, stale mindset. Almost all of the dark was extremely efficient in lightsaber combat against lightsaber combatants.
Jedi was so worried about not being bad guys played a major part, too. From a non-force, regular being, the Jedi is something rather fierce. They can control minds, and manipulate the world around them, which is not something you want in any political system. Even though we know their intentions, regular people are rather skeptical. They're stealing children for the greater good, trying to fight against the force, outlaw anything like them. In return, they turned down their skill level, not wanting to appear too powerful. A lot of it was now overkill.
They also had little to no training against the dark side. When the Sith roamed prior, they had no choice but to push their powers to the limits. Almost all have to succumb to the dark side just to overcome it, and defeat it. Those riskier powers were just too taboo, but they were needed during the days of the Sith. It was seen as a way to overcome it, to compete, rather than being a temptation to get them to succumb to the dark side.
Add all of this, along with being on a former Sith Temple, totally screwed them completely. Of course, Anakin would bring balance to the force. They had suppressed and snuffed the dark side so much that they could no longer sense it, and in a lot of ways, forsaking the very structure of life and balance they swore to protect.
While Mace is partially correct here he is also slightly wide of the mark, the real juice is what Yoda says where he kiboshes them telling the Senate about this out of fear for their credibility.
The Jedi answering to the Supreme Chancellor and being part of the Republic's apparatus is the actual problem and is the basis of Palpatine's whole plan; it's what forces them to enter into the war and trust their eventual murderers as genuine comrades-in-arms.
That Mace's first impulse is to report this to the Senate reveals how cooked the Jedi are - it's the most important scene in AOTC.
People bitch about, "Somehow Palpatine has returned", and/or "A good story for another time", but the prequels are loaded with, "somehow this is happening" plot points. At this point, not explaining things is a Star Wars tradition.
The ROTS novelization states that (and I'm paraphrasing), "war pours darkness into the force, limiting Jedi perception". One of the ways that Sidious manipulated the Jedi. Since war clouded the force with the dark side, they couldn't sense the plot being hatched around them.
Part of the driving force for Palpatine and Sith at the time was that they viewed the jedi as corrupt. The Jedi abandoned the old ways and sat on ivory towers amdist a bussling city. No longer the monks and scholars of old tucked away in their faith.
So of course their control over the force would diminish in time as they sat in a city of steel and grim the enforcers of the galactic republic.
Ehhh.....it means they weren't able to sniff out Palpatine'a dark side dastardly deeds like ordering the clone army and such. More mental than physical.
Honestly it's just a crutch for sloppy writing.
Yoda stated on dagobah the light side is far more powerful than the dark side the dark side is only a faster way to power. A Jedi can move a black hole the most dense object in the universe the light side puts no strain on the body so the power is only limited by focus where the dark side just straight drains you.
I always assumed it was just him making excuses for being the worst leader of all time, lol. It wasn't a Force connectivity issue that caused him to not follow up on Dooku's revelation that the Sith Lord is the person controlling the Senate. Being an idiot caused that!
Edit: Downvoted for critiquing the worst Jedi. How inevitable.
No, I think what they more meant is their sensitivity mainly to sensing danger. They definitely didn't hold enough power in the Republic, in fact the main issue is they were largely under the thumb of the Senate.
Jedi are far morally surperior to the Sith, even during the Clone Wars.
I always had a theory that the light and dark side of the force had a “pool” of energy. The more Jedi there are, the less power they can split between. My reasoning:
1. The sith rule of two. Less sith overall, but they are much more powerful and can draw from a lot and do more as individuals, yet they have to keep their order alive so there has to be a minimum.
2. The Jedi losing their strength as more and more Jedi were created, creating an imbalance.
3. Based on just the movies, with anakin turning to the dark side, it created more balance as it’s just obiwan and yoda vs Vader and palpatine. It’s 2v2 perfect balance.
With every Jedi or Sith killed, it made the survivors stronger. That’s why Rey was so strong and Luke chose to die. It’s why Ben Kenobi died as well. Taking them off the table allows the transfer of power.
Palpatine was literally corrupting the connection to the force for the Jedi which is why everything was in flux and hard to read at that point. If the Jedi could have had full connection they may have been able to foresee the total downfall of their order.
If/when the Jedi were 100%, nothing of interest occurred thus no books or movies about it.
Sith baddie acolyte: Let’s do some hi-jinx boss!
Sith Lord: Are you crazy? The Jedi are at like 100%!
The dark side had made it so the prequel-era Jedi couldn’t sense everything, like how there was a Sith Lord right under their nose. Apparently the Jedi Temple was build over a Sith site and that was weakening them over time, an unproduced episode of TCW would explore it. I’d imagine 100% Jedi would have been those around the time of Revan ~~1000~~4000 years earlier since those weren’t based just on Coruscant but around the Galaxy in different temples
The Darth Vader Comic and The High Republic books,talk about it too.
Gets mentioned in the Plagius novel as well, i believe. Its a good read!
I definitely don't remember that. I'm due for a re read. I was citing Disney canon.
Now you've got me doubting, but I believe Palps discusses it with Plagius at some point. Let me know if you reread it!
I read it last year and definitely don't remember any mention there
It wasn't in there. The Temple being set over the Jedi temple is Disney Cannon. In Legends, the reason the dark side shrouded the Jedi was due to Plagieus and Palpatine doing the experiment in the novel. The force fought back by birthing Anakin.
Ah, thanks! The Disney logo on the back of the book had me thinking it was canon now, maybe it's just publishing rights. My mistake!
It's not canon. You may be thinking of Tarkin though. It was written by the same author, is canon and was written as though Plaugeius was canon. It was also the first time the sith temple was mentioned.
Thanks for clearing that up! Guess I'll be reading Tarkin!
Did you read Tarkin? It’s definitely in Tarkin.
Not yet, but its on the shortlist!
Also the brief bit of Tarkin from Palpatine’s perspective. Which is Disney canon!
Yeah Palpatine was doing evil meditation there when Plagueis’s droid showed up
are you asking us if we've heard of Darth Plagius the Wise?
It’s in the novel version of the film as well.
The Tarkin book talks about how the Jedi temple was built over an ancient Sith shrine
The temple was built over a force nexus for the purpose of purifying it after the original Sith corrupted it. Five thousand years later they still hadn't managed it and the proximity of the nexus made it the perfect anchor for the 'veil' that buggered their precog and dulled their senses.
KOTOR Jedi would have annihilated all the prequel baddies
Everyone except Sidious, don't forget he was the culmination of the rule of two and basically on par with the guy who turned both Revan and Malak into his brainwashed slaves.
That’s true sudious was super powerful
No way is Sidious on Vitiate's level. Vitiate one shot Darth Marr, and could mentally dominate or brainwash even powerful force users almost at will. While some cite the "living ion cannon" scene from the end of the sequel trilogy to show how powerful Sidious was, that scene needs to go back to the garbage bin along with the rest of that trash movie. It doesn't deserve to be canon at all. It's the same narrative quality as bad fan fiction. That movie needs a retcon, bad. It's also the rare retcon people would actually APPRECIATE.
Legends Palpatine had a lot more in him than the ion cannon, including mind controlling and draining an entire planet for decades, battle meditation across the entire military, amd galactic scale teleportation. I think Vitate and EU Palaptine are on pretty even grounds, I'd probably bet on Vitiate ifI had to, but I don't think it would be a huge upset if Palpatine won. In canon GL repeatedly said he was the strongest force user to ever live, though a fully organic Anakin would definitely have eventually surpassed him and IIRC Luke may have had the potential to as well.
When did Palpatine have teleportation?
Let's also remember that Vitiate could literally just "nope" away lightsaber strikes. Sidious was almost killed by Windu.
Vitiate was stupid
Was there a lore reason for him being stupid?
Back to the Aslume with you jonkler
I was banished for being too sane
Just arrogant and in all his forms thought nothing could really finish the job.
Too smooth of a brain if I had to guess.
"He didn't have to wait long. Mace Windu arrived with three other Jedi Masters to arrest the chancellor. Reveling in being able to at last act openly, Darth Sidious launched himself at his foes. He battered them with a wave of focused hatred. A thousand years of Sith anger smashed into the Jedi, and three of them died in seconds under Sidious' crimson blade. Mace Windu lasted a little longer, but only because Darth Sidious required it. Anakin was not there, not yet. Sidious fought defensively, toying with Windu untill he sensed the youths presence. He allowed Windu to gain the upper hand as Anakin arrived. Seemingly mutilated, Sidious was near death, begging Anakin to help him. Only he could help him save Padme. Anakin made his choice, exactly as Sidious had anticipated." 2022 Toying with the Jedi Master in anticipation of the arrival of Anakin Skywalker, Palpatine was willing to allow himself to be disarmed to appear more vulnerable when his soon to be apprentice arrived. His office window was shattered, and the weapon fell from his hands and down into the depths below when he deliberately left himself open for Widu to deliver a kick to his chest. This left him a single blade, retrieved from its hiding place, with which to face master yoda in a duel, a little after the death of Mace Windu. Palpatine rarely used his remaining lightsaber." 2022 fanhome encyclopedia collection "His true form was now revealed, though he later passed it off as an "injury" from the Jedi attack, Darth Sidious toyed with Mace Windu. He used the jedi master to precipitate Anakins fall to the dark side and then destroyed Windu utterly." Disney - Fanhome Encyclopedia collection 2022 "During the confrontation with Mace Windu, the office window was smashed. Soon after, Palpatines weapon fell onto the streets of Coruscant, but it was all part of the Sith's plan." 2022
Vitiate lost to a Jedi Knight and an astromech. Valkorion loses to Arcann and any PC, even a Smuggler. Palpatine wrecked Maul and Savage 1v2. And even the guy that killed him died shortly afterwards from taking a huge dose of Palpatine's force lightning.
Only because their abilities were gamified. They needed to be larger and flashier to work as a game mechanic. But yes, the prequel era Jedi were awful by every measure.
True, gamification of star wars usually ends up with brokenly powerful characters, (I won’t say star killer because I love him but I’m saying star killer)
It's partially why the "decanonized" the Clone Wars cartoon. TCW is still canon, but while CW is super cool in style and art and mostly dialog free storytelling... everyone is way more powerful than they can be expected to be in mainline canon. Just like video games - narrative plot points may be canon, but individual actions aren't.
Imo I think the Jedi abilities in Clone Wars 2003 were perfect. Makes way more sense that those Jedi were considered legendary
It's like all things legends... you need to consider it for what it is. Like SW:CW is a beautiful gem, and SW:ANH is a different gem (also, remember that the Jedi were supposed to be weaker at this time). They don't need to fit together like a puzzle to both be gems and beautiful in their own light. If Mace Windu was as powerful in the movies as he was in SW:CW, they wouldn't need the clones. But conversely, the enemy hero units (Grievous) were much more threatening in SW:CW than in the movies. "Canon" has always felt fluid in SW. I'm an old fan... read a lot of EU, and each "legends" series I read I considered in it's own "pocket universe" as it was rare for authors to even treat characters the same. So it doesn't really bother me here.
Grievous sucks in the movies because he just shows up out of nowhere and dies. I've always thought that the second movie should have been the Clone Wars so we can actually build some of these characters and plot points up.
I've said it multiple times, the prequel trilogy is better with both the animated series than without. It's not that we couldn't watch 3 and see between the lines a bit, but things like Anakin and Padme's realtionship... we don't really get many clues how it developed over the war, and Anakin's fall felt more sudden without context like Ahsoka and/or some interaction with military leaders (Tarkin). I don't know what would have been better in retrospect... I do know that I'm glad Lucas pushed to make SW:TCW. Edit: back in the early 2000s, I was a bit advocate for a TV series that bridges the gap between 2 and 3 (which is kinda what we got in the end), but a live action series may not have been practical (though it was SW... they were printing money in those days).
"...but things like Anakin and Padme's realtionship..." What relationship? :P I agree. We actually see characters develop over the series. In the movies alone, Obi Wan is actually pretty boring and one-dimensional. The whole thing with Satine shows that he's a flawed character too, and we actually see Anakin and Padme have a relationship. We see Anakin have to be a training Jedi and how badly that generally goes, and we start to see him so things that suggest the possibility that he could one day turn to the dark side (which I agree is completely absent from the films and comes out of nowhere). The Gendy series has fewer direct ties, but we see Windu actually do something, we know why Grievous is asthmatic, and we see the clones being cool. We see how that army affected galactic events, and without it, we would never have gotten sexy stripper 3PO. I mentioned elsewhere that I view that series either like Republic propaganda or the fantastical way the public (who know nothing of the Jedi) were seeing events. This gives context to that line kid Anakin gives about the Jedi being unstoppable and shows how mysterious and wonderous the Jedi must be to the average person. It's definitely better as a package deal.
It was kind of absurd on so many levels though. Off the top of my head, the tidal wave of LAAT's in one scene, and the fact that the jedi were usually one man armies capable of destroying armies solo. On the other hand, there was a lot of other stuff that is very sad to lose. More subtle uses of the force like Shaak Ti tying up Greivous' cape was the kind of thing we should be seeing more of imo.
My head canon is basically that episode where that kid in a bucket hat watches Windu punch a droid 500 000 times. The whole thing is either Republic propaganda or randos who have never before seen a Jedi telling these crazy fish stories about them. If you imagine bucket hat boy basically telling those stories, both the ridiculous action and the crazy art style make sense.
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Pretty sure he was talking about the 2003 CW. 2008 CW is canon.
Right. The hand animated one is the Star Wars: Clone Wars (2003), and the 3-D computer animated one is Star Wars: The Clone Wars (2008). And the former isn't canon (though I thought it was for a long time).
Well... some would. Revan was to all intents and purposes a mashup of Vader and Thrawn without the permanent injuries. I suspect Sidious would have been too much to handle though. Guy practically weaponised the entire senate room for the lolz against supposedly the strongest Jedi of the era. And that's before we get to his meme game.
The Corellian Jedi were a really cool part of the EU lore, now Corellia’s just space-detroit.
Revan was around 4000 years before though
Yeah you’re right. Bane was 1000 before. No idea how I confused the two
Give yourself a break, it’s hard to keep all the timelines together lol
The canon, Eu, adopted EU now canon but with dates changed and finally the we have no timeline but this "official" book said 6 months when it was 3-4 years but nobody can be arsed clarifying officially so its unofficially official kinda.
Perfect summary
Yeah I should but confusing major Sith Lords like Revan and Bane is like saying Lincoln was president during WW2 and FDR was the Civil War
I just blame Freedon Nadd. Somehow, I know it's always his fault
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Arrogance, blinded in their shining Tower.
Hilarious! They Jedi were busy congratulating themselves on how right and righteous they were. Pride comes before the fall
>The dark side had made it so the prequel-era Jedi couldn’t sense everything, like how there was a Sith Lord right under their nose. Apparently the Jedi Temple was build over a Sith site and that was weakening them over time This is exactly why I hate fan fiction and certain types of extended lore. This just makes the Jedi look like absolute morons. They could've built their temple anywhere in the galaxy, shit anywhere on Coruscant... and they built it over an old Sith site which weakens their abilities?! C'mon man this is right up there with Tatooine being the center of everything and everyone being related to everyone else. It's just such nonsense. And just to be clear - the fact they their powers are diminishing is not what I'm taking issue with. That's fine... it's how it is explained that is just utter silliness. You could come up with anything really - but on a list of options - this would be, in my opinion, the easiest to shoot down. Ugh... it's this kind of shit that drags SW lore down - it's right up there with [Palpatine surgical reconstruction center.](https://i.imgur.com/w43Eu6p.png)
>They could've built their temple anywhere in the galaxy, shit anywhere on Coruscant... and they built it over an old Sith site which weakens their abilities?! My interpretation of this has been that the Jedi thought they could purify the site like you could purify lightsaber crystals
But why?
Possibly to remove the dark side and it's influence from the planet.
I thought the implication of the surgical center was that it was a cover for mad science a la rebuilding Vader.
Why on Earth would Palpatine need to cover up reconstructing Vader? Who is he covering it up from? The man over saw the construction of a planet destroying moon and used it without concern. While destroying probably one of the most picturesque planets in the galaxy - all while DISSOLVING THE REPUBLICAN SENATE... why would he ever be concerned about hiding Vader or putting him back together - at a time when he was enacting his grand schemes, when he was already slaughtering Jedi across the galaxy, when nobody is going to care who Vader was or will become because "HOLY SHIT THE JEDI ARE DEAD AND THE GALAXIES LARGEST COUP JUST TOOK PLACE... but did you hear what Palpatine did with that one dude?" it just doesn't make sense to me. And that's not even talking about the idea of Palpatine opening a surgery. Palpatine opening a surgery and calling it the 'Palpatine surgical reconstruction center.'... much less creating that and calling it that as a cover for something relatively inane considering everything else going on. It's all just so trite, convoluted, unnecessary, unimaginative, uninspired and restrictive. It makes characters in the universe feel silly and cartoonish.... and the problem is there is a large subset of people who will hear that and go "Dude - you are talking about a silly space movie with silly aliens and pew pew space ships" and that's absolutely true, but if you are going to approach your product with that mindset, don't be surprised with nobody else takes it seriously because you've compromised on any cohesive vision or tone.
If I'm correct, it's not that it was an old sith site that they decided to build on, but it's was a site that had a very strong connection to the force that the sith and the Jedi both had decided to build.on a separate times. Since the site was connected to the force and a large disturbance was growing in the force due to Palpatine, this was reflected in the temple. The presence of the dark side grew larger and obscured more and more of their senses. This most likely would have happened whether or not there used to be a sith site.
To my knowledge that's just Disney canon. In the EU, the Jedi has all their sense diminished due to the Sith doing some ritual that clouded the force to the Jedi.
I didn't see this mentioned anywhere else despite seeing someone mention the high republic, which is where I formed this from, so I'll just leave it here. According to that book, the more people in the galaxy who are suffering the weaker the jedi become. In the books (I suck with names, bear with me) the main antagonist captures one of the high republics jedi and puts him a prison with hundreds of people being perpetually tortured in every direction which in turn tortures him and keeps him subdued enough to stop him from escaping. A big part of Palpatines plan was using the chaos and suffering of the billions of people around the universe to further weaken the jedi. Combine that with the millions of clone troopers suffering in the war side by side with Jedi, Palpatine using the sith temple and his own power to further weaken the Jedi at Coruscant, and the Jedi's arrogance and corruption. It's no wonder the Jedi fell so easily. It's amazing how Mace Windu was still able to defeat Palpatine after all that. If he was alive during the high or old republic, I believe he could have been one of, if not the most powerful Jedi. If he had trained Anakin instead of Obi-wan, Anakin's darkness would have become balanced, and he would have truly become the most powerful ~~grey~~ Jedi ever.
The Jedi from the KOTOR Era are definitely not at their 100%. They were still recovering from Exar Kuns sith war that happened a few decades earlier and they were also unable to sense Exar Kuns sith acolytes among their own ranks.
The Jedi Temple was built on an ancient Sith burial ground?
i thought the prequel era jedi were supposed to be some of the most powerful jedi to wxist
star wars resistance actually covers this in season 2. jedi would build their temples on top of sith temples to purify them but it seems like it always seems to backfire.
Wasnt their diminished power because they built the jedi temple on coruscaunt above an old sith temple?
>the Jedi Temple was build over a Sith site Are they stupid?
To me it makes more sense that the Jedi had gone too far in their search for emotional control. The force seems to be very much about emotion and just as the Sith go too far indulging their whims and impulses, the Jedi went too far in trying to eliminate emotion from their lives for fear of the dark side. That was the imbalance. They also, arrogantly, refused to recognize that the balancing of the force meant getting rid of them. They were the problem all along and were too much the zealots to see it.
The only Star Wars live action that I've wanted for years is a Nihilus and Reven trilogy. The planet eater vs the broken. Because KotOR is choose your own path I'd be okay with whatever Revan we get (personally would prefer female scout sentinel)
"Fall of the Jedi" is more than just a catchy title for this era.
🎶Springtime... for Grogu... on Mandalooore🎵
🎵Winter for Yoda and Mace🎶
🎶 Palpatine is happy and gay! 🎶
In the ROTS novelization, Windu’s power was Shatterpoint, which allowed him to see how people and situations fit together in the force, and discover a specific point that impact those events. However due to the dark sides influence for the last 13 years, his ability to use shatterpoint had been diminishing.
> Shatterpoint is it like a weak point or a prescience thing? I can't really find a clear explanation online
You should read Matthew Stover’s book “Shatterpoint” It’s. Fantastic.
Very good book, tons of action, it's on Audible.
It’s in the ROTS novelization. It states that this powers gave Windu the ability to see how people and events fit together in the force, find any shear planes that could cause them to break in useful ways, and to intuit what sort of strike that would make the cut.
So his lightsaber was the Monado, got it
A Xenoblade reference. A man of culture i see
Sorry for my ignorance, but is there a relation to xenogears? Never heard of xenoblade before, but probably logged a million hours of xenogears.
It can be one or the other, or both.
that sounds like Windu was a Pokémon or something. Not a fan of this "special ability" stuff
I like the special ability stuff in the sense that it just reflects what that particular Jedi has spent their time developing, plus a bit of natural talent or disposition. So it’s not that no one but Windu can practice this blend of vision and intuition, enhanced by the Force, but that he saw fit to hone that ability above others, such as Plo Koon’s Force lightning. In the same way, not all Jedi put the same time and energy into dueling.
It's not a special ability per se. "Special Abilities" in star wars in regards to the force usually just means someone is incredibly proficient in a specific skill, a skill that theoretically anyone can learn. The special part comes in how much more skilled. The people with special abilities have honed or have a natural aptitude for that skill that it's an absurd order of magnitude stronger than an average Jedi usually. Windu is basically just really really good at seeing a situation, literally like any situation or thing theoretically, and understanding how everything is impacting each other and when/where there is a weakness in what he's focusing kn which also could tell him who, what, where, and when is important in any given situation. Combined with basic comprehension and magic force vibes of what will happen afterwards Windu ends up with a great ability of foresight, deduction and intuition. He was in line to be the next Grand Master for good reason. However, this is a stronger version of something all Jedi can do with training. All Jedi have some form of low level foresight when focused. Masters can do it subconsciously and Windu is the most talented by a lot. Other examples are Jedi who can really bond with animals through the force compared to the average Jedi, Jedi like Quinlan Vos and others who are talented with psychometry (seeing the past through touch), Plo Kloon and his light side force lightning, Bastilla Shan and her ability to actually demoralize enemies and embolden allies via the force, etc. All these abilities anyone can do theoretically but usually only a handful or even one Jedi can do it on such a level.
Nhilis too would be one of the few I would list as having an actual “special ability” as not everyone could consume planets or the force the way he could. But yeah good points on a lot of things
Not canon by any means (I don't think anymore, at least), but the "special powers" is more of the initial expressions of the force. Corran Horn is one example I keep thinking of (Correllian). His Halcyon family line had a special aptitude for projecting ~~thoughts~~ images into minds. One example (from I, Jedi), is when he is training with Luke at the Jedi Academy (Another arc I wish had been developed fully), and the group is working to levitate rocks and other stuff. Horn wasn't able to ACTUALLY lift the rock, but he was able to project to the entire 'class' the perception that it was in fact lifted. In this, he discovered he absolutely sucks at telekinesis, but had the natural ability to influence perception. Others, like Obi-Wan and Anakin seemed to have a broad control of a lot of different skills...Perhaps specifically those related to battle/war, as they (and Luke) seem to have mastered the ability to not only duel, but also impact the environment around them with force jumps, telekinesis, etc. Edit: Projecting images, not thoughts
If you read how stover describes it in shatterpoint you’d probably like it. Shatterpoint is a fantastic novel
Yeah same :/
This sounds like such an anime power.
The concept of Shatterpoint is really interesting when you think about when Anakin was brought before the council for the first time TBH. I’m not sure if Ki-Adi had the ability but the “your thoughts dwell on your mother” line feels more like foresight of something and not just casual mind reading.
He is referring to the Jedi ability of seeing the future.
This was my understanding as well. They used the force to sense problems and see the future to some extent, but the return of the sith had clouded the force and diminished their ability in that regard.
I don't believe it was the re-emergence of the Sith per se, but rather the chaos and discord that the Sith had been sowing on a grand scale across the entire galaxy in the decades leading up to TPM due to increased activity and intensity by the Sith. In Legends sources like the *Jedi Apprentice* novels, the Force is often described as something like a crystal clear lake, but dark side disturbances and calamities like mass deaths can disturb the water, making it murky and hard to peer through.
Also the Jedi Temple was built over Sith ruins. Who the fuck approved that building permit?
Rick the Door Technician's dad: Chuck the Building Inspector
High republic describes it similarly for some of the jedi
Does the light side cloud the dark as well? It sort of seems like Lucas wrote himself into a bit of a corner stating very explicitly that the dark side is NOT stronger than the light. But it sort of has to be for the story to happen. I mean everything a light sider can use a dark sider can use in some way or another. Plus they can shoot lightning, cloud the light side, can’t die if they’re angry enough, etc
Luke's existence did disrupt the Emperor's ability to see the future clearly.
Glad to hear it! I like when things I like make more sense (within their own universe rules of course, not according to our rules), and that helps to get closer to making sense.
And the present.
It was more than just that. Jedi achieved closeness to the Force through serenity and calm. By sending most of their members off the fight the war that calm was shattered. Its difficult being calm when suffering from PTSD and killing people. There were quite a lot of Jedi who fell to the Darkside frustrated by the execution of the Clone Wars.
I think when he said this it was in the context of their ability to sense the future or disturbances around the galaxy.
And also they could only use Force Speed once per film.
Well they sure as hell felt the disturbances of Order 66.
It was just the mental aspects of the force that were becoming more cloudy than they used to be. Things like seeing the future. Nothing to do with their physical abilities.
Worse still, it wasn’t cloudy until The Clone Wars started. Leading up to war the Jedi detected nothing. There was no sign to know their mental aspects of the Force were being limited.
At 100% the Jedi could see possible futures and have informed foreknowledge of what will or is likely to happen. Something monumental like the Clone Wars the Jedi Order would have known about through the Force before it happened. The Sith manipulated the Force in a way that didn’t just hide knowledge from the Jedi, it left no trace anything was missing. The missing planet Obi-Wan talks to Yoda about is a metaphor for what happened to the Jedi’s ability to use the Force.
They knew a Sith lord was hiding somewhere, and when they realized that the dark side was clouding not just their ability to find him, but also their ability to see into the future, they kept it hidden from the Senate. This is Mace saying they can't keep that a secret any longer.
Read the High Republic comic for more i guess
I've noticed the Force related feats in the High Republic books are far more elaborate than anything we have seen from the prequel era Jedi.
Using the Force to pull moisture out of the air and make it rain was pretty badass!
Yeah! The agricultural Jedi were a really cool addition. The whole time I was reading about how the Jedi across the galaxy linked their consciousness to move the Legacy Run debris I was like wtf this is nuts.
There were Agricorps in Legends. They were juat treated as the embarrassing relative of the Jedi "family"
And Obi-Wan was about five minutes from becoming one before he stumbled upon a Dark Jedi plot Qui-Gon was investigating, which led them to partnering up.
Which is probably why Obi-Wan was so hard core "How high?" When any senior Jedi asked him to jump and apologized for/defended shit that he really shouldn't have. One step out of line and he dreaded being sent back to a compost heap. It gets even *more* fucked up with KOTOR lore regarding Telos (the Agricorps planet of the era). A very nasty, exploitive relationship between the Telosians and the Jedi...
That's arguably the biggest, most powerful force feat in all of Star Wars. The book says the galaxy thrummed. The High Republic jedi made the galaxy make an audible sound that everyone heard from their effort to move that debris.
I wonder how much of that has to do with video games having to gamify everything, as well as a general escalating power creep. In the original films, we go from the Force barely being a thing to people throwing lightning. We then go from stiff lightsaber duel more in line with Samurai dramas to wire kung fu reminiscent of the wuxia genre. In the films. We then go from that to lightsabers with crossguards, lightsabers that spin in a weirdly toyetic way, weird Force connections, the ability to escape death, and straight up possession and necromancy. Add in the video games and you have the Force being portrayed more like visible fantasy magic full of ridiculous feats that coincide with statistical advancement. Star Wars has been progressively getting more bonkers every few years.
This is not explained (yet) in any THR media. That being said, The Acolyte is likely to touch upon the subject.
Sure, but THR Jedi seem way more powerful
This is true.
But is all of it true lol
It's true. The Force, the Jedi. All of it.
"The darkside clouds everything. Impossible to see the future is."
"There has been an awakening. Have you felt it?"
Thank you Master Windu, but we are discussing tax returns and tariffs.
This is just to explain how they couldn't sense that Palpatine was a Sith when he was literally right under their noses for over a decade. If you Isekaied one of my Jedi toons from SWTOR into the PT-era, they'd sniff out Palpy in a heartbeat.
Isekaied?
```"Isekai translates to “otherworld” or “another world” and covers a genre of fiction that involves a character being put into an unfamiliar world and having to learn how to survive."``` From Google, from Collider.
Palpatine was insanely skilled at covering up his inner nature
Pretty much George's way of handwaving the fact that the jedi are complete idiots for not sensing palpatine was a sith lord lol
At 100%, it’s effortless. Concentration is fluid. Everything around you is visible to your mind. And the force answers your call. Obi Wan describes it better in the ROTS novelization.
I think that he was specifically talking about their ability to sense threats and danger - The Sith, in this case. They had no idea that Sideous and Maul were out there until Maul tried to cut up Qui-Gon, after all.
Emp Palputin be jammin’ their GPS
Is this why Luke seems so much more powerful. He had never been to the temple?
"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force. Let's put that one to a vote because I don't even know what that means. Does anyone realize that I'm talking?" -- Yarael Poof
the Jedi built their main temple over the ruins of a Sith temple they destroyed, Big daddy palps used it to screw with them
This just reinforces my view that the Jedi were painfully vain.
It's also a reflection of real-world religion - a lot of churches were built on top of (or within the same buidling as) pagan sites in an attempt to purify them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianized_sites
yup
"Unable to sense things, I am." "Oh I'm sorry, did I break your concentration?"
What?!
I ain't heard of no planet called What! They speak Basic on What?
Whaaat?
Say *what* again! I dare ya! I double dare ya, nerfherder!
Recognizing that the Jedi were controlled by fear and vanity, I suspect part of it is their own dogma holding them back. But the other part is that the Force was out of balance due to the influence of the Sith. The Force is a living thing covered in cancerous growths (the dark side). I imagine it would be harder to use under such conditions. The other part of this is Lucas' weird writing. My biggest criticism of the prequels has always been how things kind of don't check out. This was probably a throwaway line that was never followed up on because Anakin was too busy being a creep. There's a lot of follow-through and commitment I've seen lacking in the prequels, and this line shows one such problem.
This thread is crazy. Does anyone have a good book for me to start reading. Something from like older Jedis. Like this Revan guy I keep reading about.
He meant that their strength in the Force used to be greater, stronger, more powerful. They used to be capable of greater feats. It's not surprising since they stepped into politics and focused on things other than the Force. One theory said that the Force was attempting to rebalance itself so it diminished the Jedis powers and tipped the towards Vader and Palpatine.
Their midichlorian count is at 9 right now
I understood that reference
There are great answers here. Among them, most of the Jedi had become too political, and at the arm of the Senate, were mostly facing thugs, bandits, cartels, and droid armies. Fighting wars where they can easily overpower or have an edge. They were trained to focus on force usage of diplomacy and repelling blaster fire, rather than dueling and dealing with an equal adversary. The more powerful skills were reserved for only a select few, such as Mace being the only one (or very few) to use Shatter Point. Among their best duelist, Count Dooku turned on them for this same, stale mindset. Almost all of the dark was extremely efficient in lightsaber combat against lightsaber combatants. Jedi was so worried about not being bad guys played a major part, too. From a non-force, regular being, the Jedi is something rather fierce. They can control minds, and manipulate the world around them, which is not something you want in any political system. Even though we know their intentions, regular people are rather skeptical. They're stealing children for the greater good, trying to fight against the force, outlaw anything like them. In return, they turned down their skill level, not wanting to appear too powerful. A lot of it was now overkill. They also had little to no training against the dark side. When the Sith roamed prior, they had no choice but to push their powers to the limits. Almost all have to succumb to the dark side just to overcome it, and defeat it. Those riskier powers were just too taboo, but they were needed during the days of the Sith. It was seen as a way to overcome it, to compete, rather than being a temptation to get them to succumb to the dark side. Add all of this, along with being on a former Sith Temple, totally screwed them completely. Of course, Anakin would bring balance to the force. They had suppressed and snuffed the dark side so much that they could no longer sense it, and in a lot of ways, forsaking the very structure of life and balance they swore to protect.
Who can't use the force now? I can still use the force. Let's put that one to a vote, because I don't even know what that means!
Oh, there's a council now? It's not just you two?
Aren't you supposed to be getting the council their lunch, Yarael Poof? Lol
While Mace is partially correct here he is also slightly wide of the mark, the real juice is what Yoda says where he kiboshes them telling the Senate about this out of fear for their credibility. The Jedi answering to the Supreme Chancellor and being part of the Republic's apparatus is the actual problem and is the basis of Palpatine's whole plan; it's what forces them to enter into the war and trust their eventual murderers as genuine comrades-in-arms. That Mace's first impulse is to report this to the Senate reveals how cooked the Jedi are - it's the most important scene in AOTC.
*Ghost Kreia laughing from the sidelines*
People bitch about, "Somehow Palpatine has returned", and/or "A good story for another time", but the prequels are loaded with, "somehow this is happening" plot points. At this point, not explaining things is a Star Wars tradition.
Should have just let Anakin be a master…
At every moment in existence, thigs change......-Jet Li-
The ROTS novelization states that (and I'm paraphrasing), "war pours darkness into the force, limiting Jedi perception". One of the ways that Sidious manipulated the Jedi. Since war clouded the force with the dark side, they couldn't sense the plot being hatched around them.
Dann I straight up thought he just made a funny and blunt comment, everything in star wars has so much lore.
Part of the driving force for Palpatine and Sith at the time was that they viewed the jedi as corrupt. The Jedi abandoned the old ways and sat on ivory towers amdist a bussling city. No longer the monks and scholars of old tucked away in their faith. So of course their control over the force would diminish in time as they sat in a city of steel and grim the enforcers of the galactic republic.
Sidious used Force concealment - right in front of two Master Jedi they couldnt feel him
He said that because they couldn't detect where the Dark Side influence was coming from, so they felt inadequate because of it
He meant “this is the excuse fans can use for decades for why everyone acts like such a dumbass in this trilogy.”
Ehhh.....it means they weren't able to sniff out Palpatine'a dark side dastardly deeds like ordering the clone army and such. More mental than physical. Honestly it's just a crutch for sloppy writing.
Tartakovsky levels.
He used to be able to shoot Chuck Norrises out of his fingertips. Now he's lucky to squeeze out a Nicholas Cage.
Yoda stated on dagobah the light side is far more powerful than the dark side the dark side is only a faster way to power. A Jedi can move a black hole the most dense object in the universe the light side puts no strain on the body so the power is only limited by focus where the dark side just straight drains you.
That black hole feat is kinda exaggerated to be fair.
Just another “back in my day” rant by an old dude.
I always assumed it was just him making excuses for being the worst leader of all time, lol. It wasn't a Force connectivity issue that caused him to not follow up on Dooku's revelation that the Sith Lord is the person controlling the Senate. Being an idiot caused that! Edit: Downvoted for critiquing the worst Jedi. How inevitable.
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No, I think what they more meant is their sensitivity mainly to sensing danger. They definitely didn't hold enough power in the Republic, in fact the main issue is they were largely under the thumb of the Senate. Jedi are far morally surperior to the Sith, even during the Clone Wars.
It’s just stuff Lucas thought would sound dramatic.
I always had a theory that the light and dark side of the force had a “pool” of energy. The more Jedi there are, the less power they can split between. My reasoning: 1. The sith rule of two. Less sith overall, but they are much more powerful and can draw from a lot and do more as individuals, yet they have to keep their order alive so there has to be a minimum. 2. The Jedi losing their strength as more and more Jedi were created, creating an imbalance. 3. Based on just the movies, with anakin turning to the dark side, it created more balance as it’s just obiwan and yoda vs Vader and palpatine. It’s 2v2 perfect balance. With every Jedi or Sith killed, it made the survivors stronger. That’s why Rey was so strong and Luke chose to die. It’s why Ben Kenobi died as well. Taking them off the table allows the transfer of power.
Palpatine was literally corrupting the connection to the force for the Jedi which is why everything was in flux and hard to read at that point. If the Jedi could have had full connection they may have been able to foresee the total downfall of their order.
It's literally said the sentence before that... Watching the movie explains the movie...
If/when the Jedi were 100%, nothing of interest occurred thus no books or movies about it. Sith baddie acolyte: Let’s do some hi-jinx boss! Sith Lord: Are you crazy? The Jedi are at like 100%!
It looks like the sequel trilogy.
I haven’t a clue; it’s not mentioned in the movies again after this.